Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Laurel Lance is quite the conundrum (a confusing and difficult problem or question) for which I don't think there is a clear answer.

What we see on the screen would tell us there is no love for the character. She's not given the care and consideration other characters are to further her development nor endear herself to the audience. Behind the scenes and through interviews, we would think Arrow is the love letter to Laurel they intended the episode "Sara" to be to Lotz. What is the audience supposed to take from this puzzling situation.

I think the only real answer is TPTB are in love with BC. They are holding on tightly to their original vision for BC which was Laurel Lance and her journey to becoming a partner to Arrow. If TPTB were in love as much with GA they'd be dropping Laurel/BC like it's hot. If their priority was the GA story, they'd be concentrating so hard on making Oliver and GA work we'd have a completely different show. If I had to guess I'd say they are 70% invested in the BC story and 30% in the GA story.

On Arrow Laurel and her potential version of BC aren't working. Laurel hasn't worked in any portion of the story they've attempted to work her into.

• In S1 we had the crappiest of love stories/triangles to suffer through. I couldn't cheer for Laurel as a LI for either Tommy or Oliver. Tommy deserved better than a wishy-washy girlfriend. Oliver had distanced himself and it was only then Laurel wanted anything to do with him. Oliver wasn't a viable choice because besides the sister-swapping we didn't need brother-bartering. I couldn't cheer on Oliver and Laurel because it hurt Tommy who clearly adored her. As a lawyer she wasn't believable. Her selfishness was more subtle than S2, but it was there.
• In S2 we didn't suffer through the love story because it was shut down pretty much in E1. However, everything else was ramped up. Her selfishness skyrocketed. Her suckage as a lawyer became immeasurable. Her characterization flopped back and forth so the only reasonable explanation was bipolar disorder. Sara was introduced as a conduit to Laurel's story. Although clearly the stronger BC with a better back story, Sara wasn't anything more than a device which meant we had to further Laurel's story. Cue Lance family dinners and an uptick of selfish behavior.

The critics and fans for two seasons have panned Laurel. They've been vocal about her being the weakest link on the show. She's affected ratings. I know it isn't proven scientifically, but there is a reason S2b had a decrease in viewership and S3 is on a rollercoaster. The strain of making the square peg of Laurel fit into the round hole on Arrow took its toll. If TPTB were truly presenting Arrow, Laurel would disappear for a while to begin her journey to BC and then return to organically integrate into his story.

Arrow is less about Oliver Queen and more about Laurel Lance. They are shoehorning Laurel into Oliver's life when his life would be better without her. The show would be better without her. Is this because Cassidy is earning too much money? I'd say it is a rather large gamble to increase her presence in a show where she is clearly not welcome by most fans. So the show gets their money out of her. What happens if they lose too many viewers? They are almost a lock for syndication, but the CW isn't guaranteed. Who picks up Arrow if the CW goes under? Would a cable network or streaming service be willing to pay to keep Arrow alive? I'd bet a month's paycheck if S3 continues on its current course there wouldn't be any buyers.

My issues with the show have less to do with Cassidy than the writing. While I don't think she was the right actress for the Laurel Lance they envisioned, they could have played to her strengths and chosen a narrative which would have been far less awkward. Cassidy held her own in Harper's Island. She played a spoiled daddy's girl who is madly in love with her childhood sweetheart. She

dies at his hand after he kills most of her family and wedding party.

It wasn't Emmy winning, but it had more moments in the positive column than negative. She can act when the script is leaning towards the acting chops she has. Cassidy doesn't do warm and empathetic well which Arrow's Laurel needs.

Why the writers couldn't adapt to Cassidy's strength after S1 when they realized Laurel wasn't working is beyond me. The tenacity with which they cling to Laurel Lance as BC and making it happen would be admirable if it wasn't such a train wreck. They can't persevere through this mess.

If Oliver is really going missing for a couple of episodes,

I'm anticipating more Laurel and BC trajecotry. It would be a huge mistake IMO. There is a good chance they might not recover because Laurel isn't on course to be welcome in working with TA. Sara was because she'd been welcomed by Diggle and Felicity. We might not have seen her receive her TA membership card, but nothing showed us she wasn't wanted.

i'm rambling and avoiding first NaNoWriMo day. Mostly because I have a character in mind which will be as hard to write as Laurel. She needs to be sympathetic, but she's a mess. How I get her from word 1 to word 50k is my conundrum. I'm analyzing Laurel to avoid the Laurel mistakes. So thanks for that Arrow.

Edited November 2, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[SonofaBiscuit]

The only thing that makes any amount of sense to me is that the EPs like KC/Laurel and that's the reason that she's still on the show.  If they didn't like her, I imagine that they would have just written her out by now.  If it's some contractual thing that stipulates that KC must be BC, then why did they wait so long to give Laurel any progress towards that path, and why did they kill their perfectly viable BC alternative in such a heinous manner?  I would think that if the EPs had to honor KC's contract and make her BC before getting rid of her, they would have kept Caity Lotz waiting in the wings.  If it's higher-ups demanding KC stay on the show even though the EPs don't want her, would the EPs really risk tanking their show by intentionally highlighting Laurel's flaws to make her as unlikable as possible while they make her more prominent and give her a more important storyline?  No, I think that the EPs like KC and believe that they are actually writing an interesting and engaging storyline that will turn us all into Laurel fans.  Nothing else makes sense to me. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[tv echo]

I have no idea what the EPs are doing with Laurel.  I just wish they would get rid of her character at the end of Season 3 - let Greg Berlanti cast KC as Veronica on his new Archie show.

[formerlyfreedom]

The repeated bashing on Laurel the character and Katie Cassidy the actress has crossed the line. We are not going to go back and delete or move anything, but going forward, let's keep this in mind; you don't have to like Laurel or Katie Cassidy, just as other posters are not required to hate either of them. Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted. Also, just because you think it, does not mean it needs to be put on the internet; think before you post. There are people who are not comfortable with reading in here because of the vitriol against the character and actress, and frankly, that includes the mods. The tone of a number of the Laurel-hating posts leaves much to be desired, so reel it in please. Going forward, we will be watching and posts may be deleted or edited.

 

Your mods,

 

@Lisin, @MostlyC, @SilverStormm, and

[pivot]

I am doing a partial re-watch of season 1 and have to say that Kate Cassidy looks amazing in season 1 and her wardrobe is to die for. She also has good chemistry with the actor that played Tommy. And Kate excels at the snarky, bitchy Laurel that played in Season 1A. Season 2 basically took away everything that worked for Laurel in season 1 and Kate Cassidy's dramatic and unhealthy weight loss plus weird wardrobe choices really made the character unwatchable for me. I think it would have been such a smarter move to put Laurel back as a competent attorney who works against the system and leave Sara as the Canary who only shows up occassionally. There isn't anything they can do about Kate's excessive weight loss. Same thing happened with SMG on Buffy and it really impacted the show and the stunt work.

[Shanna]

She always worked best with tommy for me except I felt sad for tommy because she still had a thing for Oliver. And then I felt bad for laurel when tommy dumped her because that was actually harsh. And then I got mad at laurel again when she got tommy killed by ignoring everyone she knows telling her to stay out of the glades. If they had kept tommy and let he and laurel have a legit relationship, I think that would have worked much better for the character. I hope the speculation about him actually coming back this season (somehow) is actually true because the actor brings out the best in KC. Although I do enjoy Oliver's snarky looks at laurel too now that they seem to have dispensed with the romance (hopefully) they work better together.

This character is frustrating because I can easily see ways she would work on the show but that doesn't ever seem to be the way the show runners see it.

I did not love her wardrobe either season, though she occasionally wore something cute there was So Much Colorblocking! Maybe I only noticed because I watched the season on netflix but it was over the top.

I am rewatching season two and just saw my favorite laurel moment, when she threw the exploding drink at Sara's head. That is still pretty awesome.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Shanna

[apinknightmare]

I did not love her wardrobe either season, though she occasionally wore something cute there was So Much Colorblocking!

 

 

I really liked her CNRI wardrobe, I thought 99% of what she wore was really cute. Now she's just way too pants suit-y, but I suppose that goes with being a srs bsns DA and such.

Edited November 2, 2014 by apinknightmare

[pivot]

I really liked her CNRI wardrobe, I thought 99% of what she wore was really cute. Now she's just way too pants suit-y, but I suppose that goes with being a srs bsns DA and such.

I loved her CNRI wardrobe mostly because I love color blocking and the outfits managed to be youthful and still professional. In the second season, I'd guess they were putting all the layers on Kate because she is so incredibly skinny. With all the extra layers it is less noticeable. I remember them doing the same thing when Buffy lost all that weight.

[Sakura12]

I have no idea what the EPs are doing with Laurel.  I just wish they would get rid of her character at the end of Season 3 - let Greg Berlanti cast KC as Veronica on his new Archie show.

 

KC would probably make a perfect Veronica. I wonder how she looks with black hair? 

[slayer2]

I really liked her CNRI wardrobe, I thought 99% of what she wore was really cute. Now she's just way too pants suit-y, but I suppose that goes with being a srs bsns DA and such.

I wish they would pace her physical arc along with her career arc. Have Laurel quit the DA stuff and work on pro-bono cases, this way she can keep her ear to the ground for fucked up things and it grounds her character in street activity. It would make her wardrobe more day-to-day and fit in better with her rough and tumble at the gym. Strip her of everything and have her work her way back like Faith on Angel, let her find a new reason to hope and a new reason to fight. Give her someone to fight for whether that's a lover, a friend or a mentee like Thea was. Bring her back to reality with someone that she can protect, have her find Sin and look out for her or simply give her someone new to support the way that Oliver was trying to support the Huntress. To connect Laurel to Black Canary she needs a human connection and it can't be Oliver, they need to take her out of the DA's office and into legal aid, move her heart towards the path of a hero then work on her body because otherwise she becomes Clark from Smallville. All that power and no soul to ground him.

[KirkB]

I actually liked Laurel's scenes with Tommy and Quentin in season one. I thought she worked well with them. The problem was Oliver. I never saw anything to help me understand why the characters got together in the first place, much less why they'd want to pick up where they left off. That's more Stephen/Katie though. She never seems to like being in scenes with him and he always looks uncomfortable to me.

Edited November 3, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

I actually liked Laurel's scenes with Tommy and Quentin in season one. I thought she worked well with them. The problem was Oliver. I never saw anything to help me understand why the characters got together in the first place, much less why they'd want to pick up where they left off. That's more Stephen/Katie though. She never seems to like being in scenes with him and he always looks uncomfortable to me.

 

I think she tries too hard to be one way or the other in scenes with him (either angry and bitter, or crushing on him) and he often seems shut down whether it's because he's PTSD Oliver, or later because to SA Oliver has moved on.  And the only explanations we could come up with as to why Oliver and Laurel got together and stayed together did neither of them any favours.

 

I thought her scenes with Tommy were good because KC didn't have the weight of Laurel's history. Laurel was bossy with Tommy but Tommy needed that at that time in his life.   PB brings out the best in her because he's a method actor and I suspect spends a lot of time with her working out Laurel's feelings and motivations.

Edited November 3, 2014 by statsgirl

[Shanna]

I think I liked her casual outfits in season one better than her work clothes. And I actually liked her coat/s in season two even if she wore it all the time. Although in one episode she was wearing the coat and then they did the long shot and she was in Capri work pants with some ankle boot and it just looked strange.

I could never understand why laurel would want Oliver back after what happened with Sara unless she was just a straight up golddigger honestly (in one of the scenes with tommy she said she never cared about money so it's funny she dated two billionaires in a row) so it was hard to get that relationship from her perspective. Especially after Sara told her he was cheating on her with at least ten different women! Like have some self respect laurel.

Oliver's interest in her post island could be explained by trying to make amends or feeling guilt for what he did. Actually when let SA show his exasperation with laurel their interactions are more entertaining and real. Similarly, I liked when KC just went off on Oliver and Sara because that seems to be what she's really feeling. But why not just cut this guy out of your life????

Edited November 3, 2014 by Shanna

[slayer2]

At this point I don't understand why any of the girls would want Oliver in their lives and right now I don't want Laurel hooked up with anybody romantically I just want to see her build herself back up and not through hatred, that was the arc we saw with Oliver all of season one. I want to see a grey character stumbling through the darkness and trying to find her way back but she needs an anchor that's why I say give her a mentee or someone or something she can protect, someone or something she cares about more than anything so we can see who she can be and that person can't be dead.

[statsgirl]

I think she could use Quentin as an anchor, he loves her and Sara and he's been through it all himself, but the longer she keeps Sara's death from him, the worse their relationship will be because he won't be able to trust her. 

 

I don't think Sin would work because Laurel would need someone less experienced and streetwise than she is to mentor, and Sin is a lot more of both.

 

I thought of Thea, but even Thea seems stronger and more assured of her journey than Laurel is right now.

 

I think the problem is where she is on her journey -- she has to find herself and know who she is before she can be someone's mentor.

[slayer2]

Quentin would be a good anchor. The amount of "shielding" that goes on on this show is ridiculous,but I guess if characters would just have faith that other characters could handle things it would kill 80% of the show.

[Pothunter]

 

I am doing a partial re-watch of season 1 and have to say that Kate Cassidy looks amazing in season 1 and her wardrobe is to die for.

I watched 105 recently and was amazed by some good acting on KC's part and her wardrobe. There was even some chemistry between Laurel and Oliver during the kiss. In my opinion, this pairing might have worked if it weren't for that unspeakably awful back story.

I fast-forward through what I consider boring bits and, since 110, Laurel has been part of most of them. She really has been let down by the writing.

[ostentatious]

I think they would've stood a much better chance if he was just this incredibly irresponsible party guy she had never dated but used to get on with decently enough, and then he got her sister killed and she blames him. Or maybe she always disliked him because he was a cheater and her sister kept taking him back.

Instead, they asked KC to play a goodness and light angel of a character, which she cannot play, and then asked us to root for them without showing them falling in love or even flashing back to those days. They could've done a lot more with a dynamic where she fights falling in love with him on the show but we see she can't help it.

But tbqh I am not sure any actress could succeed at the task set before KC. I think the very fact that they split the role into three parts testifies to that. We have Felicity, a character who pretty much seems to be the type of woman we are TOLD Laurel was pre-2007, as the Love Interest. We had an athletic badass playing Canary, the Superhero. Unfortunately, the Civilian role filled by Laurel is the least interesting, the least cool. But the split into three is what actually made it work. The role was horribly conceived for the duties they had planned for it. KC couldn't play all three, sure. But EBR couldn't play all three either. Neither could CL. EBR and SA have the kind of chemistry that could've transcended the prison of NO EFFORT TO ESTABLISH THE GOOD TIMES, but that is rare.

And that is ignoring the timeline problems that mean that Laurel cannot possibly have had her own year or three of wandering to transform her into something or at least leave some mystery to her life. And also ignoring the passive and useless lawyer choice, which we now see they are kind of pretending isn't what she is by making her act like a cop, which she should've been in the first place. Note that over on Flash, they changed Iris from PhD student, which keeps her excluded, to reporter, which is second only to "cop" for putting a non-hero right into the action.

And here on Arrow they have spent a year and a half putting onscreen the kind of layered, earned relationship of love and trust for Oliver and Felicity that they asked the audience to imagine for Oliver and Laurel.

Then add the fact that KC, a popular performer who had in the past been largely considered by critics and audiences to be the best thing about the shows she'd done, is really REALLY good at playing a certain type of character - one diametrically opposed to the Laurel we started out with. So all her natural charisma and energy had to be sublimated. She couldn't bring any of the qualities she really shines at to the role. She and Laurel were both so ill-served by this thing from the start.

Edited November 3, 2014 by ostentatious

[KirkB]

Then add the fact that KC, a popular performer who had in the past been largely considered by critics and audiences to be the best thing about the shows she'd done, is really REALLY good at playing a certain type of character - one diametrically opposed to the Laurel we started out with. So all her natural charisma and energy had to be sublimated. She couldn't bring any of the qualities she really shines at to the role. She and Laurel were both so ill-served by this thing from the start.

 

That's the oddest part of this whole thing. KC is actually really good at playing a certain kind of character. You let her play the bitchy, know it all, bully rich girl type and she'll have a field day. She made Ruby memorable, regardless of whether you liked her or not. And it would have been perfectly valid for Laurel to be portrayed that way, especially with the set up they gave her...except that's not what the EP's did. The chose to make Laurel, as you said, almost the opposite type, and while that is also a valid character choice KC is not really the right kind of actress for it. So they hired her to play a character type she's not good at and then act surprised when she doesn't do well and people don't like the performance? This does not compute. Unless they never wanted to hire KC in the first place (like the CW made them) and they are punishing the character and turning the audience against her because they cannot get rid of the actress. That's about the only thing that would make sense to me.

[Shanna]

That's the oddest part of this whole thing. KC is actually really good at playing a certain kind of character. You let her play the bitchy, know it all, bully rich girl type and she'll have a field day. She made Ruby memorable, regardless of whether you liked her or not. And it would have been perfectly valid for Laurel to be portrayed that way, especially with the set up they gave her...except that's not what the EP's did. The chose to make Laurel, as you said, almost the opposite type, and while that is also a valid character choice KC is not really the right kind of actress for it. So they hired her to play a character type she's not good at and then act surprised when she doesn't do well and people don't like the performance? This does not compute. Unless they never wanted to hire KC in the first place (like the CW made them) and they are punishing the character and turning the audience against her because they cannot get rid of the actress. That's about the only thing that would make sense to me.

The weird thing is that she is that bitchy character on the show a lot of the time. She ordering people around, making snide remarks to felicity, blackmailing people, throwing exploding drinks at her sister, and beating up people in hospitals. All of that does play to her strengths as an actress and I bought it, the problem is sometimes it seems like we were supposed to actually like her. If they would just go with that and have the characters treat her like an annoying person who is kind of dramatic to deal with, I think everyone would relax and enjoy it.

[statsgirl]

 Unless they never wanted to hire KC in the first place (like the CW made them) and they are punishing the character and turning the audience against her because they cannot get rid of the actress. That's about the only thing that would make sense to me.

I think MG and AK were so thrilled at getting their Arrow pilot off the ground and into production that when the CW said "Here, hire Katie Cassidy for your leading lady, people have been saying she's the best thing about the previous shows she's been on, they jumped at it.  At least, that's my best guess.  And then the show got picked up.

[fantique]

I have a bit of a weird theory...

With the amount of attachment the EPs/writers seem to have for LL/BC, it's obvious that the origins of BC was something they really wanted to tell. Otherwise they would have had a fully realised version of BC from the pilot.

 

What if the show they originally wanted to make was Black Canary? I think they asked KC first not just because she was more known than SA but also maybe because they really wanted to make sure the project came to fruition by getting a CW favourite. Maybe they pitched a full on Black Canary show and it didn't go through for whatever reasons and then they thought of Green Arrow (who is linked to BC). A GA show that has a big focus on BC is theoretically interesting.

 

The problem is that since they made it GA, there is this weird disconnect with what seems to be at the centre of the show. Otherwise why the obsession with the origin stories with anyone other than GA? It seems like a weird focus to have on a show that is about GA. Introducing and talking about the future characters' evolution in offscreen land makes sense, but the dedication and time put into another superhero that is canonically independent is a bit strange. Think about it. Putting aside our reservations for the Laurel character, on paper, she is telegraphed as more of a hero than Oliver is. In the Pilot: "Dinah Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" while Oliver is the Hood. Neither himself nor the city he lives in sees him as a hero and the viewer is meant to be wondering when and how does he become a hero, meaning he is far from one yet. Even though she is not donning her Superhero costume yet, LL is meant to be the hero that shows Oliver how to be one. Now of course that was derailed by many things but the intention was definitely there.

 

I think DC/WB/CW was probably tentative about a BC focused show and if you look at it, with all the superhero shows about to pop up, only one of them is about a Heroine (Supergirl in 2015, which BTW is way more mainstream than GA and Constantine since as a non comic book reader I still know of her and only knew about the Flash from vague pop culture references and TBBT's Sheldon) and that waited after having 4 shows were put on air. The rest are about Heroes or ensemble casts. Now Arrow struck gold with the idea of rewinding the clock and showing not just the evolution of the main hero but of all the other characters linked to them in their canon universe so that's why the other DC shows are following suit. It's more fun to play with and basically write fanfiction crossovers of all those heroes and villains from the different comics. it's just too bad for Arrow that the intended BC did not resonate as much with the audience.

Edited November 3, 2014 by fantique

[dtissagirl]

What if the show they originally wanted to make was Black Canary? I think they asked KC first not just because she was more known than SA but also maybe because they really wanted to make sure the project came to fruition by getting a CW favourite. Maybe they pitched a full on Black Canary show and it didn't go through for whatever reasons and then they thought of Green Arrow (who is linked to BC). A GA show that has a big focus on BC is theoretically interesting.

 

Two things make me think this most likely wasn't  the case:

 

1. The way KC tells the story of how she booked the pilot goes: she was the first actor to get the script, and she only met Berlanti/Guggenheim/Kreisberg later, when she had to auditon for the role. If she had been courted by the producers, her PR people would be broadcasting that story to the skies -- it's a big deal. So I'm pretty sure that the network wanted to keep KC in-house, so they gave her the script, and then the network pitched her to the producers. Not the other way around.

 

2. Laurel in the Arrow pilot is almost a carbon-copy of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Batman movies. Granted, the Arrow pilot leans heavily on ~homage to Nolan, but Laurel is probably the most glaring straight up copying they did. It makes absolutely no sense that, if they wanted to tell Black Canary's story first and foremost, that they'd base her off a character Nolan came up with, that has no comic book presence, and that was solely created to be the Love Interest lawyer with the heart of gold stuck in a romantic triangle between two dudes. Instead of, you know, DINAH LANCE from the comics. But Rachel Dawes lite was pretty much how they defined Laurel in the pilot.

 

I think they didn't anticipate the fact that there would be an immediate demand for Laurel to become Black Canary, on top of the fact that her main character trait -- to be Oliver's One True Love -- failed from the get go. So they had to remove her from the LI role, which is extremely complicated when you tell the audience in the pilot that Our Hero had been staring at a picture of her for five years in a hellish island. And then I figured they realized there was no possible way to make Laurel into insta!Canary without everybody in the world mocking them forever, so they came up with an alternate insta!Canary.

 

Ostentatious earlier mentioned that they had to split the main female role into three for the story to work, and I agree with that. Felicity was made into LI, Sara was made into insta!Canary, and I'm not sure they knew what to do with Laurel after that, because those were her two main narrative roles.

 

My theory for inserting Laurel back into the Canary role in S3 is that they knew they couldn't possibly get rid of Felicity, so LI was out. But Caity Lotz was never a regular, and Sara is not so universally adored as Felicity is, so they had more leeway with the Canary storyline. I still think it was a risk to kill Sara, because who knows if Laurel as Canary will finally be the narrative that sticks for the character, but maybe the EPs felt like writing without a net would force them to step up their own game.

Edited November 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[fantique]

Two things make me me think this most likely wasn't  the case:

 

2. Laurel in the Arrow pilot is almost a carbon-copy of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Batman movies. Granted, the Arrow pilot leans heavily on ~homage to Nolan, but Laurel is probably the most glaring straight up copying they did. It makes absolutely no sense that, if they wanted to tell Black Canary's story first and foremost, that they'd base her off a character Nolan came up with, that has no comic book presence, and that was solely created to be the Love Interest lawyer with the heart of gold stuck in a romantic triangle between two dudes. Instead of, you know, DINAH LANCE from the comics. But Rachel Dawes lite was pretty much how they defined Laurel in the pilot.

I get that the Pilot was very Nolan heavy but I don't understand how that would be the definition they really cared about because then they could have just not have her be the canary. She could have been whoever. Rachel Dawes was not comic book canon right? So if they really wanted the Rachel Dawes of Arrow they could have just had her be the person who Oliver loved the most from before the island without making that character BC. Just like Lana Lang (comic book Lana Lang, not Smallville Lana Lang) was not going to be Clark Kent's final destination but she was definitely a memorable stop along the way. 

 

I already stated that it was a weird theory so I don't even necessarily think I'm right. I just was wondering about the need/relevance to have the BC origin story at all in the conception of Arrow. Because even though it didn't work out the way they wanted, they obviously had decided to have BC in the show. Otherwise the Leading Lady and LI would not have the name Dinah "Laurel" Lance. They could have had her later in the show once it was more establish towards the end of its run. And if they had BC-to be Laurel, then that means they obviously wanted to write an origin story for becoming BC.

Now the idea that it was originally a separate show is cooky but that was more me making up alternatives to make sense of this weird set up

Edited November 3, 2014 by fantique

[dtissagirl]

I get what you're saying, and I completely agree that Laurel should have been something else in relation to Oliver in the pilot. But I'm not so sure that they had a BC origin story planned for Laurel that early.

 

I just remembered something that might explain a lot. At SDCC this year, Kreisberg said that they had the image of  Sara showing up in the S2 premiere as Black Canary from the inception of the show. The way he says it, it really sounded like they just had thought up the visual, not at all a complete storyline [and hey, this is not even the last time he said they had a visual before a story -- per Kreisberg, exact same thing happened with Felicity being introduced to the Green Arrow comics].

 

But it fits with 1. their obsession with the codenamed characters taking on the mantle from someone else and 2. Dinah Lance is the second BC, only instead of mother, they went with sister. If he's telling the truth -- and why wouldn't he -- then their Black Canary origin story was always Sara, and not Laurel, and always in S2. Which I guess also explains why they took exactly zero steps to make Laurel BC in S1.

Edited November 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Orion]

My guess is that they had a narrative that they wanted to tell and that Laurel was the perfect fit for that narrative and that is what they are unwilling to let go of it.  I think they always intended to tell the BC origin story and they always intended to have it mirror Oliver's journey.  In the present Oliver is becoming a hero in the past Oliver is losing his humanity. Mirrored with in the present Laurel is losing faith in what she believed in causing her to lose her humanity and then work toward being a hero. I think they always intended to get Oliver to a hero quickly so that others could travel the same path he did with a little bit of guidance from him. I would even guess that the narrative they wanted to tell was even more Nolan-esque  where Laurel has to choose between the hero and the villain (Tommy/Two Face) for her love interests. That at some point there would have been a conflict between which way she was going to go, with Oliver and toward a hero or toward Tommy and become a villain.   

 

There are multiple problems with this storyline. The most glaring is that Laurel as a character failed from the start and that caused them to have to drop Tommy as the second incarnation of the Dark Archer. The other is that right now in the story we have to many people making a run at the sidekick role. Roy (who I don't care what the writers say about him being Oliver's partner, he's a sidekick because he still defers to the Arrow), Thea (probably), Laurel (because if Sara didn't get to stand on equal footing with Oliver to make battle decisions with all her training Laurel shouldn't be able to either). It's already been shown that Oliver is a crappy mentor and these EPs can't write a true origin story well which is why it keeps happening off screen. Now we are going to have a bunch of elementary school level vigilantes hanging around the Arrow cave waiting for orders. It's crowded and every character is in need of quality screen time for an origin story so when one of them takes center stage the others get left behind and that includes the characters who aren't becoming super heroes.  The other problem is that Laurel lost out on the love interest role so her being so involved in the story at this point doesn't really make sense. Sara could drop in and out appearing when the team needed help which is much more keeping with the BC in comics. Laurel is stuck hanging around with less skills than the other two sidekicks and less motivation to become one.

 

I'm not really sure, even in a perfect TV world, what they could have done to fix Laurel. Because at the end of the day she doesn't have a believable skill set to do this type of work. The character was flawed from the start.  I guess giving her past fighting experience would have helped but Roy has that. The death of a loved one and lies are Thea's motivations. Felicity has the computer skills and heart of the team, Diggle has the tactical experience along with mentor. Quentin is the one with the connection to the law.

 

At the end of the day, I think the narrative moved on, that they may have started with a great idea but at some point everything that Laurel could be was taken over by someone else and that what we have are the EPs firmly believing that they can fix this and make us all cheer for her character. That it's an issue of pride. No writer likes to be told their character doesn't work so they are going to try to shove her in and make her kick ass to prove us all wrong.

[wonderwall]

...I wonder what Laurel would be like with Ray. Hmmmmmm

[BunsenBurner]

^^^^^^^^

I've been thinking that since BR was announced. They seem to be a perfect fit.

Edited November 3, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[statsgirl]

I don't think they were ever planning to do a Black Canary show because the Black Canary is a woman.  The movie world is full of superhero movies, a plethora of them planned in the next five years but as others have pointed out, they will make a movie about a superhero raccoon before they will make one about a woman.  TV's had it's share of superhero shows, from Superman to the Greatest American Hero but the only one about a woman was Wonder Woman and it only lasted 2 1/2 seasons.

My guess is that they had a narrative that they wanted to tell and that Laurel was the perfect fit for that narrative and that is what they are unwilling to let go of it.  I think they always intended to tell the BC origin story and they always intended to have it mirror Oliver's journey.  In the present Oliver is becoming a hero in the past Oliver is losing his humanity. Mirrored with in the present Laurel is losing faith in what she believed in causing her to lose her humanity and then work toward being a hero. I think they always intended to get Oliver to a hero quickly so that others could travel the same path he did with a little bit of guidance from him. I would even guess that the narrative they wanted to tell was even more Nolan-esque  where Laurel has to choose between the hero and the villain (Tommy/Two Face) for her love interests. That at some point there would have been a conflict between which way she was going to go, with Oliver and toward a hero or toward Tommy and become a villain.   

This makes sense to me because these writers are good at picking up surprises that work (Felicity, Lyla) but they also have a hard time letting go of their own ideas that they really love.

 

I think in terms of Laurel, they may have thought that she would okay in season 1 working her way back into a relationship with Oliver and then they could build her into the Black Canary in later seasons..  When that failed and they realized she wasn't BC material yet, they were probably at a loss what to do with her and hence the spaghetti at the wall for her in season 2,  If the addiction was meant to be her crucible, it wasn't enough and maybe that's why they killed Sara, to give her more of a spur to become a vigilante, instead of writing it organically.

 

On the good side, at least they did better by Tommy than turning him into the Dark Archer.  When everyone has a double origin story, it gets boring.

[dtissagirl]

I also have a feeling, specially because Kresiberg not only compared Oliver/Laurel to Lois & Clark, but also wrote that godawful Green Arrow/Black Canary book in the mid-aughts, that these EPs legit thought of Black Canary AS Green Arrow's love interest first, superhero second. Hence making Laurel the Love Interest first, potential future superhero second.

And then they tried it the other way around with Sara as well -- Black Canary first, LI second. But, well, neither really worked for the majority of the audience, because Felicity.

I think S3 is really the first time they're trying Black Canary, period, without the burden of being ~the destined love interest~ that they assumed she'd be from the start.

[wonderwall]

I feel like this board has become really negative about Laurel, maybe it's because of the increase in screentime and the constant "Laurel will become BC" shoving which we all understand... and talking about what the EPs planned to do with Laurel is all just a moot point that really means nothing. Granted, I've been one who has contributed to this, so I want to try something new with this post. I'm going to list all my hopes for the character... Well, my hopes are basically what the writers should do in order to make me care about Laurel. 

 

To start off with the positive, I think that KC has been doing a better job with Laurel in general this season, Laurel has had less cringeworthy scenes and usually the cringeworthy scenes she has are mainly due to bad writing (pretty sure Laurel flung herself at Oliver in episode 2 a lot because the script demanded it). Hopefully she imbues a distinct personality to her character like DR and EBR have with theirs. 

 

Now my main problem with Laurel right now is that she's just angry all the time. I hope the writing for her changes a bit because I'd like to see some grief from her as well. I'd like to see a scene where she just misses Sara and that isn't overshadowed by her anger because that is where Laurel loses my sympathy. It's like how we've seen Oliver be all angry but we've also seen him be vulnerable which is where I really connect with him. I hope the writers show Laurel's mental and emotional growth rather than physical one because that's the thing I'm mostly interested in seeing. I hope we start seeing this soon because there's only so much the writers can show regarding her physical growth. Sorry, but Laurel punching people in a boxing ring isn't fun for me and it can and will get old fast. 

 

My other hope for Laurel is for the writers to stop shoving the magical leather jacket down our throats because it's getting REALLY annoying and it's having a negative impact on my view of Laurel. Also I want to see her become more independent. I don't want to see her depending on Oliver or his team or even Ted. I want to see her get her own team, one that SHE will be the leader of. One where SHE can call the shots. But only after she becomes mentally stable because I honestly don't think she's mentally or emotionally strong at all. This is why Laurel never had a middle ground. She's either angry or she's full on bawling her eyes out. I want Laurel to find that middle ground. A place where the writers can explore Laurel's personality and who she is rather than the events surrounding her. 

 

Anyways, what about you guys? What are your hopes? And if you don't want to call it hope, what do you think will help win you over in regards to Laurel? Granted, Laurel will never be my favorite character, but I hope to not groan when she comes on screen one day. Hopefully sooner rather than later. :p 

 

I think this is the last I'll talk about Laurel for a while. I don't really like being a negative person and Laurel just brings that side out of me. I truly DO hope she becomes a better character. I hope the writers can pull it off. But from now on I'm going to lurk back into being indifferent about her because I'd rather focus on more positive comments about the things I love about this show... Which, unfortunately, I haven't been getting a lot of... Damn. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by wonderwall

[ostentatious]

I just remembered something that might explain a lot. At SDCC this year, Kreisberg said that they had the image of Sara showing up in the S2 premiere as Black Canary from the inception of the show.

I thought what he said was they always knew Sara was alive, which seems legit since one would assume an attractive young woman whose existence causes conflict between the two leads must be, even if there was a body to bury, and here there was not. Either AK or MG had said previously that they had originally planned to make Sara Ravager, but then changed plans. Whether that means they would've done something different with her from the start or simply had her be the one who turned out to have been working with Slade (and IMO that was well supported by the text), one cannot say. I do remember reading articles from the summer before S2 that suggested the specifics of Sara's role on the show was something that had to be discussed with KC, and it felt like that meant they had to manage hard feelings and potential disappointment, so I think they probably did not originally intend for her to land on the show calling herself Canary. As we can see from the meta tactic of having characters voice fan criticisms of Laurel (doesn't listen, not as good as her sister, gtf over the jacket, etc) I think they like to tackle those things head on. See also "You stole my life" from Time of Death. It probably wasn't the best idea to cast a dancer/jock/stuntwoman as Sara, though. If she wasn't doing her own fighting either the comparisons wouldn't be as extreme.

...I wonder what Laurel would be like with Ray. Hmmmmmm

I thought this from the start too. They look like people who would be together IRL.

Thing is, Laurel and Oliver are both Angels, energy wise. They need Buffys, not other Angels. Tommy was a Buffy. Felicity and Ray are Buffys. Even if KC and BR had no chemistry, Laurel and Ray could be written with the proper dynamic. I don't think there was any particular chemistry between KC and CD. It was just that Tommy as written had complementary energy to Laurel as written. I have wanted a LI for her who wouldn't roll over and show his tummy in submission at her anger. I think they got the type right with the writing for Ted, but that actor....no. But whereas Ted would pay attention to her anger and simply choose not to roll over for it, Ray wouldn't even notice it, so it wouldn't be useful for her and she would likely not even try it with him.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ostentatious

[Pyramid]

@wonderwall I would dearly love to watch an episode without seething every time Laurel appears, so I've given some thought to what you said.
Sadly I think the character is irredeemable for me. The problem is, for the first two seasons she was main plot adjacent and could have been left out almost entirely without it making any difference to the over all arc. Her "crucible" should have been a 180 on her character but ended up being a 360. And now she's just an amorphous blob of directionless anger.
I just can't think of a way to redeem her character for me. I would love to be able to enjoy her character, I resent that I resent her, but short of new writers and a recast I can't see me ever warming to her.

Having said that, season one Thea really ripped my knitting and now her character is one of the things I actually enjoy on the show, so I guess never say never.

[looptab]

I have a bit of a weird theory...

With the amount of attachment the EPs/writers seem to have for LL/BC, it's obvious that the origins of BC was something they really wanted to tell. Otherwise they would have had a fully realised version of BC from the pilot.

 

My guess is that they had a narrative that they wanted to tell and that Laurel was the perfect fit for that narrative and that is what they are unwilling to let go of it.  I think they always intended to tell the BC origin story and they always intended to have it mirror Oliver's journey.

I agree with both of you, they can't let go of BC origin story otherwise she would have been introduced later- and even when they did introduce a Canary, already in hero-mode (sort of), they murdered her. But I was wondering, suppose Laurel had worked as they intended, how could they have fitted an origin story in that narrative? What was their original plan?I can't wrap my head around this.  

There are multiple problems with this storyline. The most glaring is that Laurel as a character failed from the start and that caused them to have to drop Tommy as the second incarnation of the Dark Archer.                      

I'm not sure I get this..why would the failure with Laurel cause them to drop Tommy as Dark Archer?

Edited November 4, 2014 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

I thought what he said was they always knew Sara was alive, which seems legit since one would assume an attractive young woman whose existence causes conflict between the two leads must be, even if there was a body to bury, and here there was not. Either AK or MG had said previously that they had originally planned to make Sara Ravager, but then changed plans. Whether that means they would've done something different with her from the start or simply had her be the one who turned out to have been working with Slade (and IMO that was well supported by the text), one cannot say. I do remember reading articles from the summer before S2 that suggested the specifics of Sara's role on the show was something that had to be discussed with KC, and it felt like that meant they had to manage hard feelings and potential disappointment, so I think they probably did not originally intend for her to land on the show calling herself Canary. As we can see from the meta tactic of having characters voice fan criticisms of Laurel (doesn't listen, not as good as her sister, gtf over the jacket, etc) I think they like to tackle those things head on. See also "You stole my life" from Time of Death. It probably wasn't the best idea to cast a dancer/jock/stuntwoman as Sara, though. If she wasn't doing her own fighting either the comparisons wouldn't be as extreme.

 

Prior to SDCC I thought they always planned to bring Sara back [Dinah looking for her in S1 was a giant SHE'S ALIVE sign], but that they only came up with Sara = Canary way later. But Kreisberg revised that in the SDCC press room. He says they had a vision of Sara = Canary from the pilot. Here's the video, he talks about it starting at 2:45:

 

 

I really think they only had a snapshot in mind -- blond woman in Black Canary garb beating the crap out of someone that SURPRISE! it's Sara. I don't think they had a plan for anything else that early. Maybe it'd be a gotcha! and she'd turn out to be someone else [like Ravager]. I'm fairly certain they only decided on giving Sara = Canary a real go after the unfavorable reactions to Laurel kept going through the first half of S2, and the favorable reactions to Sara in 2A were factored in.

[ostentatious]

Oh, cool, I did not know he had clarified that point (can't watch it). Perhaps, then, the longer run/actually calling her "Canary" was what they had to be political about.

[chaos is welcome]

Hopes for Laurel this coming ep-I hope she manages to get past her rage.  I hope they FINALLY write her consistently because her character gives me whiplash.  Not this ep, but later, I would actually like to see interactions with my favorite characters that aren't snappy and condescending. Because if she's going to be on my screen I need it to be palatable. 

[fantique]

I agree with both of you, they can't let go of BC origin story otherwise she would have been introduced later- and even when they did introduce a Canary, already in hero-mode (sort of), they murdered her. But I was wondering, suppose Laurel had worked as they intended, how could they have fitted an origin story in that narrative? What was their original plan?I can't wrap my head around this.  

That is exactly what prompted my initial wonderings! It seems a weird choice to have a character that's not the titular character have such a huge chunk of the storyline on a permanent basis. It would have pretty much been as much of her show as Oliver's because it would have been a lot of screen time dedicated to her that automatically didn't include Oliver. Logically to have an origin story for LL becoming BC, it would have taken basically the same amount or more that is spent on the flashbacks because they are the origin of Oliver becoming the Hood. On top of that there would be all the parts where she interacts with all the other characters and Oliver. 

[looptab]

Which is what they're doing now, basically. Sometimes I wish I was in their heads, really. 

[patchwork]

If LL was played by a someone else I could and probably would have been fine with part of the show being dedicated to the making of Black Canary. Let her have her own side plots and cast of characters, Sin could be the sidekick she'd inadvertently picked up. But that wasn't the set-up, Laurel wasn't a superhero-to-be in season one she was Oliver's love interest and nothing more so three years later I'm not interested in Green Arrow with a side helping of Black Canary. 

[Xantar]

Has anybody seen this yet? It's apparently the real deal. All I can say is: Why so many buckles? That must take forever to put on!

[bethy]

Yeah, I did see a version of that earlier today.  It's weird to me, this hurried rush to make Laurel BC.  I'm honestly not someone who cares much really about whether Laurel is BC or not, or who mourned the loss of Sara as deeply as I know others did, but when I see that picture, even I feel a little bit like, "Wow. They did kinda just toss Sara out to make Laurel BC."

 

For a group of EPs that say they "loved" the Sara character, they show that love oddly.  

 

And for their future reference, if they want to see an episode of television that really is a "love letter," they should take a look at last night's episode of Supernatural.  

[KirkB]

To this day I still don't understand why they bothered to bring Sara back as the Canary (bringing her back and making her a vigilante I understand) just to kill her off to make way for Laurel. If Laurel's putting on the costume was always the plan why weren't they working toward it from the beginning?

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder that spoilers should either be tagged or talked about in the Spoiler topic please. If it hasn't happened on screen yet, it's a spoiler.

[Danny Franks]

To this day I still don't understand why they bothered to bring Sara back as the Canary (bringing her back and making her a vigilante I understand) just to kill her off to make way for Laurel. If Laurel's putting on the costume was always the plan why weren't they working toward it from the beginning?

 

Well, another bit to add to that puzzle: Why did they write in that piece of backstory that had Laurel sabotaging Sara's attempt to get together with Oliver, back when they were young? Why switch things around to paint Laurel in a worse light, and Sara in a better one, if the intent was just to then kill Sara and have Laurel steal her life anyway? What was the point?

 

Did they ever go back to that revelation? I honestly can't remember much of anything Laurel did or said in season 2.

[writersblock51]

Perhaps someone here can explain the continued notion that the EPs and some fans have that the only reason Laurel isn't more popular on the show is because she wasn't BC/in on Oliver's Arrow secret.

 

I don't know of anyone here, among the handful of other Arrow fans I know personally and on Twitter/Tumblr who subscribe to this view.

 

Furthermore, I hope the show figures out how to reconcile Laurel the ADA becoming Black Canary, an illegal vigilante.  This is where her becoming Manhunter would have been slightly easier to swallow.  I can't make the jump from S1/S2 Laurel the Lawyer to BC.

[KenyaJ]

Perhaps someone here can explain the continued notion that the EPs and some fans have that the only reason Laurel isn't more popular on the show is because she wasn't BC/in on Oliver's Arrow secret.

 

And if that's the case, why did so many people like Tommy?

[Pyramid]

Perhaps someone here can explain the continued notion that the EPs and some fans have that the only reason Laurel isn't more popular on the show is because she wasn't BC/in on Oliver's Arrow secret.

Because they'd have to face up to their profound failure of the character and actually think of something to fix her. Or get just get rid of her.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Perhaps someone here can explain the continued notion that the EPs and some fans have that the only reason Laurel isn't more popular on the show is because she wasn't BC/in on Oliver's Arrow secret.

This seems to be the reason some fans have latched on to. Someone floated the idea and it stuck. I have the same feeling about those who believed until Felicity got her own special episode she wasn't a fleshed out character. It wouldn't hold up in a good debate.

[tv echo]

Deleted in a fit of mercy.

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo