Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[pivot]

To put Laurel into the A plot, they essentially made the A plot about her -- Who killed Sara?  and  How does Laurel extract revenge and reach her destiny of Black Canary?

 

She still doesn't fit into the show as a whole, although she will when (if, please!) she become the Black Canary because presumably she'll take Sara's place fighting at Oliver side.  The problem is I don't think it will ever be organic because the role KC plays best is not the role the show intended for her.  I think they should have left her for a season working the legal aspect for Team Arrow so that she really does prove part of the A plot and then have her grow into BC  Doing it now is what leads to the speculation that being BC is in Cassidy's contract.

 

I agree it would have been much better if the actresses had swapped roles.  But Katie Cassidy was hired first specifically to play the role of Dinah Laurel Lance who becomes the Black Canary (possibly even before Stephen Amell if you believe her interviews).  My best guess is that the EPs realized that Laurel wasn't ready to be the Black Canary in season 2 and made Sara the Canary to stall for a year, and the way Caity Lotz took that role and made it shine surprised them.

The only thing I can hope for is that the producers realize they've written themselves into a corner with Laurel and make her the Black Canary and have her leave the show. Maybe they can make it another spinoff? The Flash is doing really well and maybe Kate would shine on her own show. She has never been a good fit on this show.

And if it is a contract issue, there is always a way around it. It happens all the time. Maybe it is a case of the writers developing "Joey's Syndrome" where they fall in love with a supporting player and turn the entire show into a showcase for her wonderfulness baffling all viewers.

And after seeing the season finale for season 2, I am off to the bitterness thread. Damn, them and their teasing.

[Starfish35]

I could see them writing her out if they just can't make her work this season, because it wouldn't technically be breaking "canon" as long as she's already the BC. I'm just not sure if they will actually come around and admit even to themselves that they can't make her work.

I can't see a spinoff happening. At all. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a network trying to make a spinoff around their least popular character. What would be in it for them to do that?

[pivot]

The question is if they know she is that unpopular. A lot of producers are blind to how unpopular some of their characters/storylines are.

[Starfish35]

But the network execs are the one who'd have to sign off on a spinoff, not the producers. It seems like they'd be looking for something to indicate that this character is worth the risk of throwing all that money at building a new show around her. I can't imagine them being as blind to her relative unpopularity as the EPs might be.

ETA: There is one possible way I could see it happening. If they got the rights to Oracle/Barbara Gordon and found a strong actress to lead a Birds of Prey remake, then they might move Laurel over, but not as the show lead.

But I still don't think it's hugely likely. With Teen Titans and Supergirl in development (albeit not on CW) how big of a priority is a BoP remake I wonder?

Edited October 30, 2014 by Starfish35

[patchwork]

I honestly believe that some sort of behind the scenes negotiation went on with KC; in exchanged for her not being Oliver's LI for the foreseeable future they promised to step up the time scale on Laurel becoming the BC. 

 

This season easily could have been about Laurel trying to find a place within team Arrow and becoming disenfranchised with the law but instead we got Sara's death and her magical jacket.

Edited October 30, 2014 by patchwork

[catrox14]

The question is if they know she is that unpopular. A lot of producers are blind to how unpopular some of their characters/storylines are.

I wouldn't even mind if the show runners were just like we are going to leave this unpopular character because she serves a purpose that is coherent, that can't be done by anyone else; that didn't require killing off another character that did serve that purpose and was arguably popular. And for me, her name is no reason enough to keep her around.

[Danny Franks]

There is no way on earth that Laurel Lance, played by Katie Cassidy, is getting her own spinoff show. Just... not a hope in hell of it even being suggested as a serious prospect by anyone but Cassidy and whoever she's friendly enough with to keep her in the job she currently has.

 

She's not going anywhere. She'll be one Arrow to the (increasingly) bitter end. I'd put money on it right now. We had this discussion last year, when she still clearly wasn't working and was superfluous and ruined the pace of the show and was annoying and unpopular. What exactly has changed since then? They got rid of the viable Canary alternative.

[Chaser]

Laurel isn't going anywhere and I don't see the writing improving. The most I can hope for is they make her Black Canary ASAP and then put her in the background again. That way they make her fans happy by calling her BC and they make the audience happy by going back to more popular elements.

 

I just can't wrap my head around way they have such a problem writing for character/actress. Like John Campea said in his review, they are capable of writing strong female characters, why can't they write Laurel?

Edited October 30, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[AnyoneButYou]

I honestly believe that some sort of behind the scenes negotiation went on with KC; in exchanged for her not being Oliver's LI for the foreseeable future they promised to step up the time scale on Laurel becoming the BC. 

 

This season easily could have been about Laurel trying to find a place within team Arrow and becoming disenfranchised with the law but instead we got Sara's death and her magical jacket.

 

Why would there need to be any negotiations, though? KC has a contract she has to fulfill. If she's unhappy, that's her problem. It's not like she could quit the show unless the producers agree to it. The producers aren't obligated to make everyone happy. Everything going on with Laurel this season is solely on the producers, in my opinion. They seem really stubborn in trying to make this one character work even if they have to push fan favorites off to the side to accomplish it.

Edited October 30, 2014 by AnyoneButYou

[pivot]

The only two things that make sense is that they are completely blind to how unpopular Laurel is and how she doesn't fit into the show or they are planning a spinoff with Kate Cassidy. I could see them revamping a Birds of Prey show and making it an ensemble with Kate.

And Kate still looks awful in season 3. She is way, way to skinny to be believable as an action star.

[statsgirl]

Well the mystery is going to be solved by the mid season finale (or so I heard), I really wonder how the writers are going to make Laurel relevant after. I honestly don't think they can. What, will Laurel just come barging downstairs ordering people to give her a mission or...? Even then I won't believe Laurel going on missions considering I hardly believe Roy is going on missions. 

Laurel will have her own List from the DA's office of people they can't prosecute and she will insist that her List is more important than Oliver's List and make Team Arrow go after them for her.  And she'll be the one giving orders, not Oliver or Diggle.

 

I imagine (well, hope) that Laurel will have some similar epiphany moment.  If her whole journey to becoming the Black Canary is about her turning impotent, directionless rage into slightly more potent, directionless rage, I'll be extremely disappointed (and also probably not watching anymore).

 

 

But who is she going to go after?  I can't see her being a sidekick to Oliver the way Roy is, and she doesn't have the skills Diggle and Felicity bring to the team.  Not to mention, she's not a team player in the slightest.  Is the solution to give her her own villains as the continuing 'B' plot?  That might might Laurel/BC fans happy but it's going to do nothing for me except make me resent the time she's taking up that could have been spent on better characters.

 

But the question is, will Laurel's 'purpose' be relevant to the plot? Will it be relevant to team Arrow? Or will she still be a superfluous character going on her own journey? One that takes away precious screentime from those who actually are relevant to the plot. Why is it that I feel like the second Laurel took center stage was the moment all these plot holes and inconsistencies in the writing started to come up? I feel like the writers are just doing everything they can to accommodate Laurel's arc and it's just making the rest of the show suffer. 

The problem is that this is Oliver's show, not GA/BC or even The Justice League.  It's about Oliver's journey and Oliver's quest.  Everyone else's journey fits into Oliver's (Diggle, Felicity, Roy, even Thea) except for Laurel's because the Black Canary is too powerful a character in her own right. 

 

I think the best thing to do is that at the end of this season, after she's become the BC, Laurel goes to Coast City (not Central City because Barry's there) to fight crime there.  I don't see how they can ever successfully integrate her into the show so unless they want to keep giving her alternative plots to Oliver's they have to do something else with her.

 

 

The only two things that make sense is that they are completely blind to how unpopular Laurel is and how she doesn't fit into the show or they are planning a spinoff with Kate Cassidy.

Either blind or contracts.  Someone at WB must see that she couldn't anchor a spin-off.

Edited October 30, 2014 by statsgirl

[Shanna]

Laurel isn't going anywhere and I don't see the writing improving. The most I can hope for is they make her Black Canary ASAP and then put her in the background again. ?

I think she could spend the season or two training to become black canary. Preferably off screen. That would work for me. I don't think there is any way in hell she is getting a spin off. We are stuck with her for whatever reason.

I could see her maybe running around going after whoever strikes her fancy and getting in Oliver's way maybe...she doesn't fit with team arrow though. That grouping seems like it will be tense, especially since she spends half the time barking orders at everyone like they are servants. This would make more sense as a character trait if she had been one of the trust fund babies like Oliver.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Shanna

[lizonthefritz]

Laurel's path to becoming the Black Canary has been pretty awful so far. The way they're going about it does not fit with the things that we've been told about this character before (I say told because I don't really think what they've shown us has come across to the audience the way the writers intended. I think the writers have been trying to create a character who's righteous and good, but that's not how I've come to see her.)

 

So what do they do to make her turn vigilante? They kill her sister and set her off on a murderous rampage (so far, only circumstances have prevented Laurel from killing an innocent and a not-so-innocent-except-[probably]-of-this-particular-crime in cold blood). That doesn't sound like a hero's journey, that sounds like a psychopath's journey.

 

What they should have done (as so many have said) is to have Laurel start off the season working for Team Arrow from the DA's office, putting away the bad guys as fast as Oliver catches them, only to have her slowly grow disillusioned by the law failing her, so that she at the end of the season (or by mid-season if they wanted to fast-track it) could go to Oliver and ask him to train her to become a vigilante - in a scenario where he just might do it!

 

And in this week's episode they handed us what could have been her final straw on a silver platter.

 

When Merlyn was telling Oliver that no prison could hold him and Oliver decided to let him roam free and protect him while he did so (WHAT?!) I can't have been alone in thinking that those weren't the only two choices. Why didn't they just call Lance to have him arrested, splashing the headlines with "Mass Murderer Merlyn Rises from the Dead" to make sure that Merlyn would have nowhere to run even if he got out on bail because his face would be everywhere?

 

Then have Laurel prosecute him herself. Make it all about Tommy. Make Laurel revisit the pain of losing him. Make her put everything into getting Merlyn convicted.

 

And then have Malcolm get off on a technicality.

 

No need to kill Sara (no need to even mention Sara), no need for this unrelenting dreariness at the start of the season, no need to have Laurel come off as an incompetent sociopath with complete disregard for the law and evidence and everything that is supposed to define her, for crying out loud!

(I can't believe I wrote this much about my least favorite character on television right now...)

[statsgirl]

Then have Laurel prosecute him herself. Make it all about Tommy. Make Laurel revisit the pain of losing him. Make her put everything into getting Merlyn convicted.

 

And then have Malcolm get off on a technicality.

 

No need to kill Sara (no need to even mention Sara), no need for this unrelenting dreariness at the start of the season, no need to have Laurel come off as an incompetent sociopath with complete disregard for the law and evidence and everything that is supposed to define her, for crying out loud!

That makes so much more sense than what they are doing now, it makes me sad.

[KenyaJ]

One of the advantages of Laurel - and this is an advantage in terms of "easy to write" -- is that she's been so inconsistent for two seasons now that you really can have her say pretty much anything and have this be in character.  Note that even though she completely flipped positions halfway through the episode, we're now four pages into discussing this episode, plus we have a frankly frighteningly long topic about Laurel, and not one person has said, "Wow, that was out of character for Laurel."  People have made that observation regarding Diggle and Oliver (regardless of whether it's correct) and people did say, "oh wow, Laurel was inconsistent again" but the key bit there is the "again."  Inconsistency is a character element of Laurel.

 

The only things that are OOC for Laurel are being pleasant and being competent at her job.

[chaos is welcome]

I honestly believe that some sort of behind the scenes negotiation went on with KC; in exchanged for her not being Oliver's LI for the foreseeable future they promised to step up the time scale on Laurel becoming the BC. 

 

This season easily could have been about Laurel trying to find a place within team Arrow and becoming disenfranchised with the law but instead we got Sara's death and her magical jacket.

You bring up an excellent point. I do to understand why they skipped this very Important step of becoming disenfranchised with the law. They have previously show ll to be a character who thinks the law works, but is willing to go outside the boundaries of the law when necessary. Even in 1, you catch them I cook them....and now suddenly the need to be a vigilante.

We also still have little outlying quotes, like the "people aren't always what they seem" from flashback Sara, after the very pointless cock block story in s2. I just. Don't. Get,it. They do know how to write a good story, or at least did for s1-2a, so wtf. Writers? Why can you not write a better origin story here.

  

The only things that are OOC for Laurel are being pleasant and being competent at her job.

This made me lol. Truth. Preach it!

[kdm07]

I just can't wrap my head around way they have such a problem writing for character/actress. Like John Campea said in his review, they are capable of writing strong female characters, why can't they write Laurel?

The answer's pretty straight forward imo: they're stuck on the "Dinah Laurel Lance is the BC" narrative and have tried everything possible to make it happen. This has, in turn, made their writing incredibly inconsistent as they try and find a crucible for Laurel that'll stick. All the other female characters have been relatively blank canvases for them i.e. they haven't had the burden of a pre-determined narrative stuck to them from the minute they stepped onto our screens.

 

This isn't an excuse for the show runners because if they had the slightest feel for their audience, they would have dispensed with the "Laurel is the BC" narrative ages ago and made her into something else.

[blixie]

 

The answer's pretty straight forward imo: they're stuck on the "Dinah Laurel Lance is the BC" narrative and have tried everything possible to make it happen. This has, in turn, made their writing incredibly inconsistent as they try and find a crucible for Laurel that'll stick.

 

The thing that confuses me is why she needs a crucible *at all*! It's really important to have Dinah Laurel Lance become Black Canary, to tip their hat at canon, but the only thing they seem to want to retain from canon is: the name, the jacket/outfit, and I guess the "inheritance" aspect. I have no issue with the idea of from the beginning being invested in telling Black Canary's story (especially if her origin story is my mom was super cool), I just wish we'd started THERE, Dinah Laurel Lance, owner of a flower shop, and have her already BE Black Canary.

 

In the mythos of comicverse she's as strong or stronger than Green Arrow, so let's meet her five years into HER hero arc too. Have her and Oliver cross paths at night, and in their daytime selves as well, he buys flowers for one of the many girls he's going through the motions womanizing, they could even keep the Tommy is dating her aspect.  It could have been all very Batman Returns ( a far FAR superior Batman to ape than the Nolan growler). 

 

I see NO reason at all to give her and Oliver a backstory, and not just any backstory but a fucking TOXIC backstory. I see no reason to make her a Lawyer (other than a writer friend who told me she pitched a story to her boss on a network show and his entire takeaway about her main guest character was: that's great but could he be a doctor? or a Lawyer? The character was an Irish ne're do well/ex-con). None of that was necessary and all of it wrecked Laurel before she even had a chance, because of that backstory, she had to be ANGRY, because of that vocation she'd be a hypocrite. AWFUL awful storytelling, or at least it is if you actually give a shit about the audience liking and rooting for DLL/BC. Now she has to "become" Black Canary. Now she has to have "a crucible", now she has to have a sister invented and murdered so she can "inherit" the mantle. SMDH.

[Starfish35]

She wouldn't even have to be using the Black Canary name quite yet. She could be just a florist with some serious martial art skills and possibly a military background who helps out people in the Glades when they need it, and who gradually gets recruited onto Oliver's team because of her skills and then eventually takes on the Black Canary name.

That show I would have liked to have seen. But instead we got this.

[blixie]

 

who gradually gets recruited onto Oliver's team because of her skills

 

Hee, well  in my AU Laurel story I don't think I would like that, I prefer the idea that she was her own woman and didn't want to be subsumed into Oliver/Vigilante's ish, I would hope she was already morally more evolved then him, as you said helping people in the Glades v. the vengeance masquerading as justice Oliver was trying to rock in S1, defending the innocent v. offensively attacking the guilty. I'd have liked to seem them as rivals/allies, but not really friends, while also having this totally flirty real world interaction before they finally tripped to each being the other's masked/secret vigilante hero bud.

 

Sigh, instead they hobbled the character beyond repair from the word go, by making her five years behind the 8 ball of being physically OR mentally on a trajectory toward being a hero. It bums me out, if they invested any time at all really thinking about WHO Laurel should be instead WHAT she will become, she would have been a character the audience understood and rooted for even if they maybe didn't even like her.

[fantique]

The thing that confuses me is why she needs a crucible *at all*! It's really important to have Dinah Laurel Lance become Black Canary, to tip their hat at canon, but the only thing they seem to want to retain from canon is: the name, the jacket/outfit, and I guess the "inheritance" aspect. I have no issue with the idea of from the beginning being invested in telling Black Canary's story (especially if her origin story is my mom was super cool), I just wish we'd started THERE, Dinah Laurel Lance, owner of a flower shop, and have her already BE Black Canary.

 

In the mythos of comicverse she's as strong or stronger than Green Arrow, so let's meet her five years into HER hero arc too. Have her and Oliver cross paths at night, and in their daytime selves as well, he buys flowers for one of the many girls he's going through the motions womanizing, they could even keep the Tommy is dating her aspect.  It could have been all very Batman Returns ( a far FAR superior Batman to ape than the Nolan growler). 

 

I see NO reason at all to give her and Oliver a backstory, and not just any backstory but a fucking TOXIC backstory. I see no reason to make her a Lawyer (other than a writer friend who told me she pitched a story to her boss on a network show and his entire takeaway about her main guest character was: that's great but could he be a doctor? or a Lawyer? The character was an Irish ne're do well/ex-con). None of that was necessary and all of it wrecked Laurel before she even had a chance, because of that backstory, she had to be ANGRY, because of that vocation she'd be a hypocrite. AWFUL awful storytelling, or at least it is if you actually give a shit about the audience liking and rooting for DLL/BC. Now she has to "become" Black Canary. Now she has to have "a crucible", now she has to have a sister invented and murdered so she can "inherit" the mantle. SMDH.

The bolded parts are when I screamed YEEEESSSSSSS! in agreement when reading your post.

Oh my god, you beat me to it. I was about to post about the exact same question/confusion I have. Why LL couldn't be Black Canary in the series premiere I don't know. I don't care if KC doesn't do her own stunt, she's an actress. I don't understand why they seem obsessed with their actors doing the stunts (I know the actors want to but that is not their primary occupation and neither should it be). It would have been fine that way. Not everyone expects all the actors to do them. I am fine with Colton Haynes having a stunt double. Even in season 2 they could have caught up with her becoming BC because of Tommy but I guess they felt people wanted the Black Canary on the show stat so that's what they did and now we are left with this mess. So.Freaking.Stupid.

Edited October 31, 2014 by fantique

[kdm07]

All I did was answer a question! LOL! Jk, I do think it's a terribly stupid corner that they've backed themselves into and there are multiple ways that they could've done justice to Laurel's character a long time ago. Unfortunately, it didn't happen and we're stuck with this.

[Starfish35]

Replying to Blixie -

Ha, yeah, I think we're thinking about this a little bit differently. I like your scenario too though. I was thinking about her being more of an Equalizer type character(that comparison may be flawed but it's the closest thing I can think of right now) rather than a costumed superhero. Not formally in that she advertises, but that the word's gotten around that if you need help, talk to the florist lady. And yeah, I could see them clashing over their different styles of approach. She doesn't like this hooded vigilante running free in her territory, and Oliver is very curious about what's up with this woman who appears to be a florist but who can totally kick his ass (and has). They don't really join forces until the Undertaking, when they're forced to to try to stop Merlyn. Meanwhile she is dating Tommy, and runs into Oliver at some functions that Tommy takes her to. She's intrigued by him, because her own background gives her enough experience to know there's more hiding behind those eyes than a carefree playboy, but she really is in love with Tommy. But then Tommy dies in her arms during the Undertaking.

I may possibly have thought about this too much. Lol.

ETA: I should add....I guess my reason for not having her in the Black Canary costume right away didn't really have anything to do with Oliver. It comes from....well, to be honest..... I just liked the idea of, when we meet her, Dinah Laurel Lance is kicking ass and protecting the world (or her corner of it) in jeans and a t-shirt, not a costume and mask. *shrugs sheepishly* Yeah, I've thought about this too much. *goes away*

Edited October 31, 2014 by Starfish35

[Shanna]

The only things that are OOC for Laurel are being pleasant and being competent at her job.

And staying out of the glades when multiple people have given her a heads up that she should do so.

Also saying please ;)

Edited October 31, 2014 by Shanna

[Danny Franks]

And staying out of the glades when multiple people have given her a heads up that she should do so.

Also saying please ;)

 

Thinking of others is another thing she's not so great at.

 

They could keep all these for the day when they have a Laurel imposter and need to figure out who's the real one and who's the fraud.

 

Oliver: "Hey, Laurels. If you were walking down the street and an old man fell down in front of you, dropping his groceries, what would you do?"

 

Laurel #1: "Why, I'd stop and help that poor old man up, gather his groceries and make sure he was okay to get home. I am a do-gooding, socially aware lawyer, after all."

 

Laurel #2: "Curse at the unfairness of the world that this old man fell down in front of me, and now I have to take time out of my day to help him. Ugh!"

 

*Oliver, Roy and Diggle all immediately fill Laurel #1 with arrows and/or bullets*

[patchwork]

 

Why would there need to be any negotiations, though? KC has a contract she has to fulfill. If she's unhappy, that's her problem. It's not like she could quit the show unless the producers agree to it. The producers aren't obligated to make everyone happy. Everything going on with Laurel this season is solely on the producers, in my opinion. They seem really stubborn in trying to make this one character work even if they have to push fan favorites off to the side to accomplish it.

 

That contract probably includes being the leading lady, the main love interest and Black Canary. On a CW show not being the LI is a big deal so even if that's not part of her contract it would be common decency to speak to her about adjusting Laurel's role if for no other reason than to keep harmony on set.

 

Current Laurel makes it hard to imagine a version of the character that doesn't suck but I would have kept her as a lawyer at CNRI but say she's been training at Ted Grant's (who's not a hot guy but a elder, mentor figure) gym for the last five years because she had a lot of rage she couldn't express about Sara and Oliver. To help out the Glades, once in a while she also takes on the role of a masked protector.  It hurts my Olicity heart to type this but a former douchey guy who over many seasons proves himself to the woman he was too stupid to appreciate could have really worked for me. No Tommy/Laurel romance though BBF only.   

[Chaser]

There are so many variations of Laurel and Oliver/Laurel that could have worked. A lot of the ones I was readying here had me nodding my head thinking "Yep I would totally watch that character; I would totally ship that." But the past two years? And what we have seen in just these few episodes? After everything with Felicity and Oliver? In my opinion there is nothing that would get me on board Laurel as a character and Oliver and Laurel as a couple. Right now, I can't even tolerate her.

 

Are contracts really that specific? Can they really dictate roles and story lines? I always just assumed that you signed on to play that character for however many years. But where that character goes is not in your hands.

[AnyoneButYou]

 

Are contracts really that specific? Can they really dictate roles and story lines? I always just assumed that you signed on to play that character for however many years. But where that character goes is not in your hands.

 

I really don't think contracts are that specific. I'm pretty sure once you sign on to play a role, whatever happens in that role is at the hands of the producers and writers. They can stick to their "show bible" that outlines the plans for however many seasons they think they'll be on for or they can deviate like killing Tommy off even though Colin Donnell had a 7 year contract. I highly doubt KC had such a specific contract that she would be promised certain things for her character.

 

If contracts really were that specific, Dawson's Creek wouldn't have turned into Joey's Creek.

Edited November 1, 2014 by AnyoneButYou

[patchwork]

Some contracts even stipulate where in the credits the actors name will appear. To me one saying the character your signing up to play is a lead, the title's love interest and a superhero is more of a broad outline of what the actor can expect. 

[statsgirl]

Where in the credits an actor's name appears is something there can be a lot of negotiation for, especially the coveted "and" role.

 

If contracts really were that specific, Dawson's Creek wouldn't have turned into Joey's Creek.

But none of the kids in Dawson's Creek were established actors when their initial contracts were negotiated.

[wonderwall]

That's the thing though, she DID play Oliver's love interest. Not anymore. So if being a love interest is one of the clauses, well the show has fulfilled that.

 

Also, I don't think contracts go that in depth that it actually dictates the story. That would be the height of stupidity in itself. 

[apinknightmare]

I know the desire is there to believe there's some contractual reason that the producers are pushing Laurel's storyline, but I doubt any contracts are ever that specific. That's a creative kind of hand-tying that next to no one on the show side would ever agree to, even if it is for one of the network's bigger "stars."

 

The simplest reason? Because they want to; it's a story (or they are stories, since they seem to be trying any and everything with her character) they want to tell for whatever reason. And even though there seems to be a large group of fans who don't like the way Laurel's arc is going, there is a large group who either do like it or are coming around to it or are glad she has something to do now. I don't know how it'll play out long-term, but at this point, generally speaking, while it does seem to be hurting some people's enjoyment of the show, it doesn't seem to be hurting the show in the eyes of the general audience.

[Shanna]

I think the contract is more likely to detail things like screen time and number of episodes, but they may have promised her things on the sly and the cw has some sort of a relationship with her that they obviously want to keep. Somebody up there likes her and wants her to be happy for whatever reason. So I bet this is more related to that. Plus, comic book cakes...

I am sort of amazed that KC would be considered such an important actress for having a bit part years ago on supernatural (and honestly I preferred meg) and then a bigger part on a show that got cancelled. You've gotta wonder what else is going on back there.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Shanna

[AnyoneButYou]

I just don't think Greg Berlanti, who is a much more established producer than KC ever has been as an actress, would handcuff himself contractually to promises that dictate the stories the show can tell. What they're doing right now seems more like the producers not wanting to give up on Laurel.

Edited November 1, 2014 by AnyoneButYou

[dtissagirl]

Some contracts even stipulate where in the credits the actors name will appear. To me one saying the character your signing up to play is a lead, the title's love interest and a superhero is more of a broad outline of what the actor can expect.

Pretty much all contracts stipulate billing [the placement in the credits]. That's not special treatment, that's the norm in Hollywood.

There have been rumors circulating for years that, post Felicity-the-WB-show, they started putting a ton of appearance clauses in the actress' contracts -- no drastic haircuts without consulting with the network, for example. But promising specific storylines is the kind of stuff that comes up in contract renegotiations, not upfront. KC hasn't renegotiated her contract yet.

I could buy that the words "Black Canary" exist somewhere in her contract, but anything other than that? I find unlikely.

Edited November 1, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

You know a lot of you guys have the right idea about how Laurel should be written off from the show and that's to cut all her ties from Starling. Ted would probably go to jail or die and when Quentin finds out about Sara, he'd probably never forgive her (well, for a long while at least). She barely has any ties to team arrow or her job or even Oliver at this point, her and Thea probably don't even talk anymore and she doesn't have any friends... So if she does get 'left behind', then I wouldn't be surprised that she'd leave to start a new life. 

[statsgirl]

I will be surprised if she does leave though.  For some reason, these EPs want her not just on the show but front and centre, even though everyone I talk to in real life thinks she should leave and most general internet sites are at best meh on her.   I wish I knew why.

[Starfish35]

So if she does get 'left behind', then I wouldn't be surprised that she'd leave to start a new life.

Yeah. If they were to kill Quentin off, I could see her saying "that's it - I'm done here." Then she could run into a mysterious redhead on her way out of town. ;) (Not saying it's likely, just saying.)

Edited November 1, 2014 by Starfish35

[blixie]

 

I could buy that the words "Black Canary" exist somewhere in her contract, but anything other than that?

 

My theory has always been they are paying her to the play the lead, and that the suits could NOT have been happy with the amount of story she was given earning that paycheck during S2. Like we aren't paying her X amount to be an extra in the finale with Slade. So I'm sure they went to the producers and said give her a story, a big one, or get her off our payroll. They didn't have the balls to fire her so here we are.

 

I also think whatever cache KC had at the CW may have run it's course, they know the character is poison, and the actress fairly unpopular with viewers, and critics. I don't believe for a second she has any pull with them right now, beyond that they like her as person and feel obligated to give it a go. Plus they WANT to give it a go, for their own egos and obsession with DLL = Black Canary.

 

I don't get the sense the network cares very much one way or the other about Arrow, it's midlevel performer on already low rated network, and if it crashes and burns, they can take the one piece they and the audience love for damn sho (Felicity) and slide her easily into The Flash.

 

Unless KC and the show mutually decide to go their separate ways before her contract is up I think we are stuck with her.

[Happy Harpy]

The question is if they know she is that unpopular. A lot of producers are blind to how unpopular some of their characters/storylines are.

If believe they know that at least, she's unpopular with a good part of the online audience; and not only because actors on the show (B.Taylor-Klaus and S.Amell) have criticized the amounts of "hatred" toward an unnamed character, which makes me think that no one on top of the show's ladder can be unaware of it. I'm convinced they know because of the shift in the way they promote Laurel.

 

At the end of S1, M.Guggenheim twitted that the season would have a "new and improved Laurel" (verbatim) which is actually an admission that there was a problem -otherwise, no need to "improve". Then, there were interviews with much gushing on how the audience would love Laurel  and Laurel's storylines, that became by mid-S2 how "those who don't like Laurel will like her a little better" (not verbatim, but close I think) and then, especially this summer, it ended up in how "Laurel fans" -therefore, not the audience in general- would love her storyline.

I personally think that 1) offline and online audience tastes aren't that different and 2) EPs don't completely write off the online audience's opinion even though it might be a "vocal minority", because it's immediate feedback; but anyway EPs have feedback through other ways, like audience panels. So imo, their attitude is telling.

 

So I believe that they do exactly what they want with Laurel, and want her front and center...which is ironic because I agree with what was said upthread: they've placed her front and center and still she ends up as irrelevant to Oliver and the show's central narrative in general.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

If it's true that everyone got three year contracts other than SA (who got locked in for 6 because there is no show without him), then KC's contract will be up at the end of this season.  The question is, will they let her go then?

 

Even though there are many satisfying ways to write her out in terms of the storytelling (see posts above), I would be very surprised if they do though.  For some reason, they really seem to want her on the show, maybe it's because they can't give up on their dream of Dinah Laurel Lance: Black Canary.

 

On the other hand, as TV Guide's Matt Roush wrote 

 

And yet, while Laurel will never be my favorite character either, she has always been a key player in this story, so are you really so surprised? This doesn't feel like a deal-breaker, given how many other elements of the show are working. (The one I'm missing most these days is Susanna Thompson as the elegant Queen matriarch, Moira.) But if Arrow is disappointing you so much, might I suggest transferring your attention and affections to The Flash, which is an utter joy. While I enjoy Arrow, the casting on The Flash is superior throughout, and it's refreshing to watch a superhero who actually enjoys himself once in a while.

Even he notes a problem with the casting on Arrow.

[olicityfan25]

I just don't see how she's a key player. Some people seem to fall back on this just like how her name is Laurel and she has to be BC. lmfao She doesn't work. There are enough people out there who say so. Why don't they just make her clip clop out of here.

 

Now that I've heard so many of the Realm Cast's podcasts, I can only see her as a horse. lol okay that's mean but it's true. All she does is butt in everywhere.

[Actionmage]

I see no reason to make her a Lawyer

 

After coming up with an alternate take of Laurel (less dependence on Oliver and no romance in the past, just friendship), it was about 8 paragraphs.  Still, Laurel being a lawyer could have been cool and integral for the team. Another flavor of the judicial system that could help the team. A side Quentin can't exactly bring. ( Like Flash has team members in the sciences, but not the same discipline.)

 

I was soooo looking forward to Dinah and BC on my TV. Now I am not. I place that primarily on TPTB. She is not some Mrs. PotatoHead doll that changes because you feel like it and want her to go from pearls and a purse to Darth Tater. *sigh*

Edited November 1, 2014 by Actionmage

[tv echo]

Thinking of others is another thing she's not so great at.

 

They could keep all these for the day when they have a Laurel imposter and need to figure out who's the real one and who's the fraud.

 

Oliver: "Hey, Laurels. If you were walking down the street and an old man fell down in front of you, dropping his groceries, what would you do?"

 

Laurel #1: "Why, I'd stop and help that poor old man up, gather his groceries and make sure he was okay to get home. I am a do-gooding, socially aware lawyer, after all."

 

Laurel #2: "Curse at the unfairness of the world that this old man fell down in front of me, and now I have to take time out of my day to help him. Ugh!"

 

*Oliver, Roy and Diggle all immediately fill Laurel #1 with arrows and/or bullets*

I laughed at this because I was remembering when Laurel was bitching about how, when Quentin was a stumbling alcoholic, she had to go and get him and drag him into her car.  I thought at the time that her recounting that memory made it seem less like concern about her father and more like annoyance that she had to take time out of her busy schedule to help him.

[NumberCruncher]

On the other hand, as TV Guide's Matt Roush wrote

Even he notes a problem with the casting on Arrow.

Responding in News and Media thread.

[quarks]

and that the suits could NOT have been happy with the amount of story she was given earning that paycheck during S2.

 

 

And also season two. Important point.

 

I don't know what the executives are thinking. But I think it's important to remember that by all accounts, KC was originally hired to play the lead actress role. Most accounts agree that she's paid the same if not slightly more than Amell, making her the highest paid or second highest paid (tie) actor on the show. 

 

She got this salary at least partly on the expectation that she would be in a combined romantic lead/action role/crime fighting role with at least 18 to 22 minutes of screentime per episode - slightly less than Amell (who also does flashbacks) but more than any other actor. You can see this clearly in the first five episodes of the show.

 

But for whatever reason, since then KC/Laurel has had more than ten minutes of screentime per episode in only three episodes - "Burned," "Blind Spot," and "Sara."  This includes the so-called "Laurel centric arc" of season two and "Corto Maltese" and "The Magician" from this season. "Corto Maltese" was a Diggle/Thea episode, so that's understandable, but "The Magician" swung right back to the "who killed Sara" arc, something Laurel definitely could have been involved with, and yet Laurel still had under ten minutes of screentime. Regulars Oliver and Malcolm had more, as did guest Nyssa. In the first season, Diggle had more overall screentime; in the second season, Diggle, Felicity, Slade and Sara all had more overall screentime.  

 

And that is why I don't subscribe to the view that the writers love Cassidy, or love Laurel, are unaware of the problems, or are trying to make her front and center.  Given the original setup, we should be seeing Laurel for about 15 to 20 minutes per episode, and she should be integrated into every plotline. But that's not what's been happening.  

 

We'll see how I feel in May, of course. 

[statsgirl]

I agree that they are aware that there are problems -- I just don't think they know what exactly those problems are or how to solve them.  If they knew, I don't think they would have put Laurel/KC into a main season-motivating arc that required killing off Sara in such a brutal way.

 

Like others have said, i think they would have done Laurel better by first making her a good lawyer, as she was in The Calm, and then motivating her to become a vigilante independent of executing Sara, either because Malcolm walked on Tommy's death, or with Sara being kidnapped.  It just seems to me that what they are doing now with Laurel highlights all the problems with her, from thinking she's the only one who knows what's right (not telling Quentin, giving orders to  Team Arrow), to weaknesses in KC's acting.  All except for her being Oliver's love interest, that is.  Fortunately they are keeping away from that.

[insubordination]

I remember there was a lukewarm response to Erica Durance (Lois) on Smallville and for a few years, they only gave her 12 episodes a season or something to get everyone used to her I suppose.  However, she's Lois Lane. Eventually, they put her in every damn episode regardless. I stopped watching about then 'cos I remember she became an insta-journalist. Perhaps Lois wasn't as disliked as Laurel (she was at least nice), but I fear this show's not going to be much different.  The name brand will triumph and we will get insta-BC. It's a shame, 'cos I kept hoping they were going to take an out when Sara came along.

 

ETA: and Lois and Clark got married just like they're meant to.

Edited November 2, 2014 by insubordination

[quarks]

It just seems to me that what they are doing now with Laurel highlights all the problems with her,

 

 

I agree with this - it's another reason I don't think they do like KC/Laurel that much, let alone have a boner for her. Because they aren't fixing the problems; instead, they are actually backtracking. They spent last season attempting (however badly) to simultaneously trying to make her sympathetic while nuking the Laurel/Oliver relationship.  One the Laurel/Oliver relationship was nuked, they started slowly trying to build Laurel back - finally giving her some heroic moments in Birds of Prey, letting into Oliver's secret, letting her have some nice motivational heroic speeches in the last couple of episodes.  Viewers didn't necessarily respond, but the attempt was there.

 

And now, four episodes into this season, the show has gone way out its way to highlight every problem with Laurel: she gets herself into trouble and has to be rescued (twice); she's not just judgemental, but often wrong when she is; she and her father lie to each other frequently; she has nothing to contribute to Team Arrow that can't be done by others; and much of what she is doing consists of other storylines.

 

Plus, generally speaking, when showrunners either love a character or love an actor, they either increase that character's screentime/importance (Diggle and Felicity in this case) or rewrite that character. (Thea, in this case.) If for financial or executive meddling reasons (cough Colton Haynes cough) they know they have to work with an actor and make that character look good, they work with the actor. 

 

They haven't done any of this with Laurel.

 

we will get insta-BC

 

 

The show kinda seems to be avoiding this. Not well, I agree, but we are at least getting some scenes of an untrained Laurel getting hurt, and Laurel training and hitting punching bags, in contrast to Thea "Hi! It's been five months, and I'm a ninja!"

Edited November 2, 2014 by quarks

[statsgirl]

I'll add this: in most cases, when an actor is killed off so brutally instead of getting a heroic death, the default assumption is that the showrunners had an issue with that or contract negotiations went badly.  Which makes me wonder why in this case, the assumption has been that Caity Lotz's character was killed off in order to prop up Laurel (an assumption that yes, I did agree with in the Bitterness thread), instead of what would be the more usual assumption: Lotz asked for more money, or disagreed with the showrunners about the direction her character was/wasn't going, or wanted film work. Which is to say, there are other reasons why Sara might have been killed off in addition to, or besides, setting Laurel on the path to Black Canary.

I think people are making the assumption that it's to prop Laurel because CL wasn't a regular, she was a recurring actor so no big contract, and the EPs have said that she will continue to be on the show (in flashbacks), and that they are very happy to write more for her and hope to have her on even more.  If there was a problem with the actress, they wouldn't keep inviting her back in flashbacks; and as they do want her and if she's not available to be a regular, there's still no reason to kill Sara (they could have had her kidnapped or in Nanda Parbat) except to make absolutely sure that there was no one to challenge Laurel for the black leather jacket or the Canary cry.

 

So it all comes back to Laurel, and making her the Black Canary without any other options.  Which is why I'm leaving this here instead of moving it to Sara's thread, because I think it's about what the EPs want to do with and for Laurel rather than anything about Sara.

 

ETA:  quarks, again with the editing while I'm replying to your comment???  :-)

Edited November 2, 2014 by statsgirl