Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[wonderwall]

Yet she went on the boat. Ok

 

It's possible Laurel did actually know he was the hood..hence her lack of surprise imo when Slade told her.

I don't think Sara cared that he was a cheating manwhore... I for one don't buy the whole 'sisterly love' thing that's going on between Laurel and Sara. They've been terrible to each other.

I doubt Laurel knew about Oliver. She looked shocked when Slade told her (although I'd say she didn't look that shocked because of poor acting on KCs part). Then she did the whole 'extensive research' thing where she stared at her board in her home and followed Oliver around...

Edited September 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[Password]

I don't think Sara cared that he was a cheating manwhore... I for one don't buy the whole 'sisterly love' thing that's going on between Laurel and Sara. They've been terrible to each other.

 

The worst sisters to each other ever. That relationship needs work. How ridiculous that you mention the many tens of thousands of women Oliver has slept with, then you become one of them. Hmph.

[wingster55]

(although I'd say she didn't look that shocked because of poor acting on KCs part).

 

I disagree (in part because I don't view her as a poor actor...middle of the pack at worst/best)

 

The research was just to confirm..a la Hank on Breaking Bad

[wonderwall]

I disagree (in part because I don't view her as a poor actor...middle of the pack at worst/best)

 

The research was just to confirm..a la Hank on Breaking Bad

I'm just saying that, that scene was poorly acted, not that KC is a poor actress.

The research was to confirm what Slade told her, not what she already knew. If she had an inkling that Oliver was the Arrow before Slade, she would've done that research long before.

[Chaser]

I would go with confused mixed with shocked. I wish they would have had her say something instead - "Son of a Bitch." lol

[Starfish35]

The eye thing in that scene was crazy. Who was it over at TWoP that said she looked like she was watching a laser pointer on the floor? Now I can never get that image out of my mind.

[willpwr]

Yet she went on the boat. Ok

 

It's possible Laurel did actually know he was the hood..hence her lack of surprise imo when Slade told her. 

I would agree with that if it wasn't for the EP's and KC being excited about Laurel finally being in on the secret so I take that as well as the way she acted afterwards as confirmation that she definitely didn't know. She just didn't convey surprise or much of anything in that scene.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, it was just "blank look and darting eyes".

[willpwr]

I think the difference between Sara choosing to go on the boat and Laurel ignoring the signs of Oliver cheating are that Sara wasn't planning a future with him. She saw it as an opportunity to have fun with a cute boy that she liked. She was aware of his flaws, whereas Laurel seemed to ignore them and just focused on being the future Mrs. Queen. I'm not saying that what Sara did was right but she seemed to like Oliver while not being oblivious to what he did, Laurel appeared more enamored by the thought of what he would become which to me explains why Sara was the one that liked him first. She was aware that Laurel called the cops and broke up the party so that Laurel could get to spend time with the boy Sara liked. She warned Laurel of his cheating, Laurel reacted by getting mad at Sara. Anyone else think that maybe Sara wanted to get caught going on the boat with Oliver so that Laurel would have no choice but to see the truth?

[Password]

Nope. Sara straight up cheated with Oliver. They dislike each other, it's the only explanation I have.

[Chaser]

The big mistake in the Laurel and Sara relationship was that everything was in reference to Oliver. We can only speculate what their actual dynamic was.

[Sakura12]

Not that I think it was right what Sara did, but she did save Laurel a world of heartache had she gotten her wish and actually married cheating douchebag Oliver. 

 

I know Sara went on the boat with Oliver, but she knew what kind of man he was and wasn't planning on marrying him. She just wanted to have fun and party with a cute guy she liked that enjoyed the same thing. Laurel on the other hand thought Oliver had changed and was going to follow her five year plan to making her Mrs. Oliver Queen. She was completely delusional, both Sara and Quentin told her as much and her reaction was to get angry at them that they weren't happy for her. 

 

I guess the one constant character trait that Laurel does have is her delusion. What happened above and the fact that she thinks she's knows Oliver better than anyone else. When Diggle's girlfriend/wife probably knows Oliver better than her despite never being formally introduced to him. 

[calliope1975]

Hmm, did Sara think she could keep her boat rendezvous a secret from Laurel? Her mother and Oliver's dad knew. It does seem that Sara and Laurel's relationship was already fractured if not broken when Sara cheated with Oliver. You don't do that to someone you have a sisterly bond with with unless you want to torpedo it.

 

And when she returned, she wasn't thinking about Laurel's feelings when she brought Oliver along to that disastrous dinner. Too bad TPTB didn't explore that more; I think it could have been interesting and given both characters layers.

[wonderwall]

I'm going to take my response to the relationships thread...

[willpwr]

Just wanted to clarify,I meant in an "I told you so!" kind of way when I said she wanted to get caught with Oliver, like, "see, I told you he was a cheater and I knew it for a fact". I wasn't defending Sara's cheating because that's disgusting IMO to sleep with the same person your sibling is sleeping with.

[formerlyfreedom]

I'm going to take my response to the relationships thread...

 

Thank you! And yes, when we start going this deep into Sara/Oliver/Laurel, let's take it over to Relationships, please!

[Orion]

 

Moving to Relationship thread.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Orion

[blixie]

 

she would've done that research long before

 

Eh, I don't think she would, the whole point of her knowing but not examining it is believable to me, because she didn't want to deal with anything Ollie related. Like I KNOW but I don't to know know much like Quentin doesn't want to know know, but he totally does know. The entire secret identity thing is dumb as shit, considering how many people he outright tells or who figure it out, and I thought the producers have as much as admitted it's not something their super invested in maintaining.

[wonderwall]

Eh, I don't think she would, the whole point of her knowing but not examining it is believable to me, because she didn't want to deal with anything Ollie related. Like I KNOW but I don't to know know much like Quentin doesn't want to know know, but he totally does know. The entire secret identity thing is dumb as shit, considering how many people he outright tells or who figure it out, and I thought the producers have as much as admitted it's not something their super invested in maintaining.

It's not believable to me because it doesn't stay true to whatever character she has. If there's one thing I sort of know about Laurel is the fact that she's insanely persistent. So if she did suspect Oliver like she suspected Blood, she would've investigated him as soon as she had an inkling of Oliver being the Arrow. That's the one consistent thing I've seen Laurel been.

[blixie]

Yeah we definitely can agree to disagree, I think there is zero consistent about Laurel except possibly her bitch face. That's it. Her pursuit of Blood was a breath of fresh air because she pursued something from beginning to end, per se, she gave up and hit the sauce after being gaslighted. But it didn't see it fit into a larger pattern of tenacity/investigative pursuit.

[writersblock51]

 

Quote

    she knew that Oliver was a cheating manwhore that cheated on Laurel with a bunch of different women before her.

    

Yet she went on the boat. Ok

 

I think Sara knew exactly what and who Oliver was  - like others have said, her opinion of pre-island Oliver was more in keeping with who he actually was, as opposed to the pre-island Oliver that Laurel was delusional about. 

 

Delusion seems to be a thing for Laurel in many cases but there have been 2 notable exceptions:

- the first instance was in S1 when she tracked down the woman in the photo her mom had been clinging to, in hopes that it was Sara.  Of course, we now know that Sara was alive at the time but wasn't the woman in the photo anyway.  But Laurel was concerned about her mother's hoping for something that she and Quentin had come to (sort of) terms with.  She was also able to track down the woman in 1 episode and get her to Starling City - meanwhile, Dinah had already been looking for more information

- the 2nd was this past season with Sebastion - she put herself in great risk to find the truth about him.  Didn't she even bug his office? 

 

My point is that Laurel has been shown to be able to find the truth when it comes to someone that matters to her.  The idea that she's known that Oliver has been the Hood/Arrow/Vigilante prior to Slade telling her just doesn't float with me.  Whatever her suspicions were about the Hood/Arrow, she stopped thinking it was Oliver pretty quickly in S1.  Furthermore, if she'd known, I think we would have seen a little hint or different framing of the scene in S2, Ep1 where she and Oliver end up at Tommy's gravesite.  She vows to go after the Hood - no way did I pick up the slightest anything that it was a veiled hint to Oliver. 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't think Laurel knew the Arrow was Oliver. Oliver lost his best friend. If she had an inkling they were one and the same, her bitchiness extends beyond her facial expressions.

Personally I don't see how Laurel could know Oliver was the Arrow. It wouldn't have benefited her through most of season 2 therefore it wasn't on her radar.

[statsgirl]

Laurel wanted to be mad at the Vigilante for Tommy's death.  Any hints that she got that Oliver was The Hood/Arrow, she would have forcibly ignored, just as she ignored that he was cheating on her in the past.

[BkWurm1]

The eye thing in that scene was crazy. Who was it over at TWoP that said she looked like she was watching a laser pointer on the floor?

 

:D  My one claim to fame.  :D

 

I don't think Laurel had an inkling that Oliver was the Arrow.  She was so absolutely certain that they couldn't be the same person in season one and yeah, she poured her fury at the hood, not Oliver in the beginning of season two.

 

Now I do think it is possible that after Slade told her, she couldn't help but go back and put pieces together but I don't think for her it was the same as it was for Quentin.  Quentin avoided making 1+1=2 while Laurel IMO never connected anything enough to avoid adding things up. 

[TanyaKay]

:D  My one claim to fame.  :D

 

I don't think Laurel had an inkling that Oliver was the Arrow.  She was so absolutely certain that they couldn't be the same person in season one and yeah, she poured her fury at the hood, not Oliver in the beginning of season two.

 

Now I do think it is possible that after Slade told her, she couldn't help but go back and put pieces together but I don't think for her it was the same as it was for Quentin.  Quentin avoided making 1+1=2 while Laurel IMO never connected anything enough to avoid adding things up. 

 

I went back to see that scene and now, in my head, I see a production assistant actually lasering random spots on the floor so that Laurel's eyes can follow it.  2x18 is forever changed for me, hahaha still laughing.

[KirkB]

"Over there Katie! No, Katie, your mark is over...damn it! Where's the laser pointer?"

[wonderwall]

"Dammit Katie, you're not supposed to be grinning! Your sister is leaving with a group of assassins for gods sake!" 

 

Heh. 

 

Okay I'm done now. 

[TanyaKay]

^^^^
Can't they erase her bad acting choices in post production? Like they take away wire works and stuff? I mean if they are that hard pressed to keep her on, at least spare us the agony of going through her scenes with an ever present grimace.

[pootlus]

I don't think CGI has advanced to the point of being able to erase that shit-eating grin - at least not on a lowish budget TV show.

 

I've seen Katie laugh and clown around in behind the scenes stuff - why can't she bring that nicer, goofy side to Laurel?

[strikera0]

Which explains why Katie Cassidy looks so good. Seriously, what the heck happened? She looked fantastic back then and the clothes they put her in actually suited her.

 

If people are curious to find out why Katie Cassidy's appearance has changed so dramatically, they can read a fairly sound explanation for it here.

Edited September 17, 2014 by strikera0

[statsgirl]

That's sad if she felt she had to do that.  (I think she looked better before, there was a really pretty Madonna look about her face.)

[Chaser]

Wow. That's terrible. She looked great in S1.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Laurel's styling was so much better in season one.  Her outfits were cute, her makeup was more natural, her hair was full and healthy looking, and she didn't wear 56 rings all at once.  I hope that they get back to that.

[Morrigan2575]

The ring thing is all Katie, that's not Laurel.  Not sure about the wardrobe but in S2 the rings, hair and makeup all match with KC's style from fashion blog and personal photos (that I've seen).

Edited September 17, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

That's kind of meta for the problem that KC has difficulty differentiating Laurel Lance from Katie Cassidy.  For whatever reason they let her put her own style on Laurel (her high status on the show? throwing her a bone because Laurel became less important?), maybe it would have helped KC for the EPs to keep her Katie self from influencing the character of Laurel.

[Sakura12]

The cheek removal thing doesn't explain why her forehead doesn't move. During Broken Dolls it appeared she was going for a full on dramatic cry but her forehead remained completely still and it took me out of the scene. 

[wingster55]

The cheek removal thing doesn't explain why her forehead doesn't move. During Broken Dolls it appeared she was going for a full on dramatic cry but her forehead remained completely still and it took me out of the scene.

 

Foreheads...move? I mean they...wrinkle I guess but move?

 

Also I'm not as observant as I think as I've never noticed any rings in her scenes..not that I'm looking but still.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Also I'm not as observant as I think as I've never noticed any rings in her scenes..not that I'm looking but still.

 

Yeah, diamonds and gold are Laurel's best friends:  https://arrowfashionblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/laurels-gold-rings/

Edited September 17, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[dtissagirl]

The "fuck" ring Laurel wore while thinking about popping all the pills will forever be the bestest:

https://arrowfashionblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/laurel-2x14-time-of-death/

[FurryFury]

I read the linked post about KC's surgery (that's sad, but, well, that's her choice) and made the mistake of continuing to the comments... One of the first posters said that Jennifer Lawrence looked like a fat chipmunk and needed plastic surgery. WTF?

Yeah, this was my first time on the IMDB forum. Never again.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, diamonds and gold are Laurel's best friends:  https://arrowfashionblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/laurels-gold-rings/

That's just not an attractive look, IMO. But I realize opinions will vary on that.

[catrox14]

Yes foreheads move. Have you ever seen someone furrow their brow or have a surprised look and the forehead crinkles and moves and the hairline moves a bit?

[Angel12d]

That makes me really sad that she had surgery. I did wonder because she looked so different at the start of s2 compared to s1 but I couldn't put my finger on what she could have had done. She was so naturally pretty before. Sad. I suppose as long as she's happy with it though. 

[TanyaKay]

I think she went a little crazy before she started her fashion blog, hence removal of cheek fat and some serious weight loss.

I was not too fond of her even before but I think she looks older now which kinda defeats the purpose of cosmetic surgery, no?

[strikera0]

Also I really don't understand why people are so annoyed by the placement of Laurel. The obviously just wanted a boy-girl-boy-girl aesthetic. Also she is the second billed character and is probably going to be an associate of Team Arrow. The comments on the facebook page are ridiculous.

 

Honestly, the over the top reaction to Laurel's positioning on the poster is one of the reasons why I can't see her going anywhere. Like her or not, she gets people talking. Characters like Thea, Roy and Lance (even Diggle to a certain extent) only seem to create apathy among the online fandom, but as soon as a Laurel-related spoiler hits the airwaves, comment sections are set on fire and fans take to social media to voice their opinions. And this is exactly what the CW loves. They love when people talk about their shows and Laurel is probably the most talked about aspect of Arrow right behind Olicity/Felicity/Team Arrow.

[ban1o]

Honestly, the over the top reaction to Laurel's positioning on the poster is one of the reasons why I can't see her going anywhere. Like her or not, she gets people talking. Characters like Thea, Roy and Lance (even Diggle to a certain extent) only seem to create apathy among the online fandom, but as soon as a Laurel-related spoiler hits the airwaves, comment sections are set on fire and fans take to social media to voice their opinions. And this is exactly what the CW loves. They love when people talk about their shows and Laurel is probably the most talked about aspect of Arrow right behind Olicity/Felicity/Team Arrow.

haha you have a point there. The response that Laurel gets, especially when people think she disturbing the "Arrow team dynamic" or she's thnk she might bre disturbing Olicity is astounding. I also frequent Arrow imdb boards and every few days there's always some long, heated discussions about Laurel. It's pretty funny. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Taking my answer about the poster to the Media thread

[statsgirl]

Honestly, the over the top reaction to Laurel's positioning on the poster is one of the reasons why I can't see her going anywhere. Like her or not, she gets people talking. Characters like Thea, Roy and Lance (even Diggle to a certain extent) only seem to create apathy among the online fandom, but as soon as a Laurel-related spoiler hits the airwaves, comment sections are set on fire and fans take to social media to voice their opinions. And this is exactly what the CW loves. They love when people talk about their shows and Laurel is probably the most talked about aspect of Arrow right behind Olicity/Felicity/Team Arrow.

I think it's accepted wisdom among many, including show-runners and p.r. people, that any talk about a topic or character is a good thing.

 

In my experience (albeit with other TV shows), that if people don't like something, they will complain for a while, and then they will find something else to watch.

[Matt K]

I think it's accepted wisdom among many, including show-runners and p.r. people, that any talk about a topic or character is a good thing.

 

In my experience (albeit with other TV shows), that if people don't like something, they will complain for a while, and then they will find something else to watch.

 

That's my experience.  Once a show hits a certain threshold I just stop watching.  Laurel is 70% of the reason my wife and I stopped (never ended up seeing the last 3 episodes), especially the direction they seemed to be taking her towards being Canary. 

[Chaser]

What was the other 30%? Just curious.