Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

Realistically as you put it, she would not have the time to be proficient enough to hold her in a fight with people that have trained far longer than her. Especially without the realistic amount of time to dedicate herself to learning. She can beat up people with no training but those aren't the people she's going to be facing as crime fighter. All the big bads on this show all seem to be ninjas. 

 

I do agree that they will make her a prodigy just to put her in the costume during November sweeps and be done with it. She'll probably be even better than Oliver and have to save him when he gets defeated. 

[wonderwall]

I think it's just funny how people complain about Roy being ready for a mask too quickly and going out on the field (which I agree with) but then when people make the same complaints about Laurel, they use Roy as a reason as to why it should be okay. IMO I don't think just because Roy got his mask ridiculously quickly doesn't mean that Laurel should. BC should be better than Arsenal, she shouldn't be a sidekick. But when people say that because Roy got it quickly then Laurel should too it just shows that they see her more as a sidekick than a superhero. 

 

I don't get people sometimes... 

[foreverevolving]

I think it's just funny how people complain about Roy being ready for a mask too quickly and going out on the field (which I agree with) but then when people make the same complaints about Laurel, they use Roy as a reason as to why it should be okay. IMO I don't think just because Roy got his mask ridiculously quickly doesn't mean that Laurel should. BC should be better than Arsenal, she shouldn't be a sidekick. But when people say that because Roy got it quickly then Laurel should too it just shows that they see her more as a sidekick than a superhero. 

 

I don't get people sometimes... 

The difference is that we have been shown time and time again in season 1 and some of season 2 (pre mirakuru) that Roy has the basics skills that are useful for a vigilante.

[KirkB]

Roy proved himself in a fight from the beginning and residual Mirakuru doesn't hurt. If they had told us (they wouldn't have even had to show us, just tell us) that during the five years Oliver and Sara were gone Laurel had started training with Ted Grant or some of her dad's old friends, just basic self defense, it might have acted as a foundation for her eventual herodom.

[formerlyfreedom]

Okay. You have something new? Please post. But if you're just going to say the same thing over and over and over? Don't do it.

 

This is your warning post. Deletions will happen from this point forward.

[BkWurm1]

She suffered for 5 years when she lost them

 

Setting aside whether or not the show has actually telegraphed that she did suffer constantly for those five years, I think was loses Laurel some sympathy is that it seems in order for her to be suffering for five years, she had to choose to suffer.  Or at the very least, choose not to move on from her pain and her past since from everything we have learned, her life actually didn't stop when Oliver and Sara went down on that boat.

 

[Disclaimer:  People react to grief in different ways.  Clinical depression is real and not something I'm at all trying to dismiss or claim is something people chose, but I feel that Laurel has never been shown in the time prior to Oliver returning to have suffered from a clinical depression] 

 

She stayed in school.  She met her goals.  She found supposedly satisfying work.  She repaired her relationship with her father.  No, she and her mother were no longer close, but does that constitute major suffering? 

 

Lets play the game where Oliver and Sara never come back.  They stay dead.  Does Laurel on her death bed confess she's still down at the bottom of the ocean right there with them? 

 

Oliver and Sara - how they died, what they did and the ripple effect of her father drinking and her mother running away, it was traumatic, no doubt, but for someone that is able to keep living her life for the most part, even three years after the fact would have dulled the acute pain. 

 

I think the show set Laurel up as a person who chose to move forward with her life. She got burned badly in her relationship with Oliver so she put the personal side of her life aside and concentrated on school, work and her dad.  Not ever day would have been easy, but unless she made a conscious choice to dredge up her pain and wallow in it, I can't conceive of how she could have been suffering for five years. 

 

I feel like the show made it clear that Laurel got on with her life and more than anything, Oliver showing up alive was messing with her new reality since it brought back long buried pain and that I can buy, that Laurel has been a mess SINCE Oliver returned, but five years would have {or maybe in my opinion should have been) enough time to restart her life.  If she suffered constantly, it really does come off to me that she would have had to choose that mind set.

[somewhereother]

What ultimately makes this unbelievable to me is a) the writing has failed this character at nearly every turn. There's no subtlety to it, no nuance to make us feel for her the way that we should, and her motivation is dubious at best 

 

I totally agree with this.  Also, for me it is not so much how much 'pain tax' the characters have paid, but the degree to which they are able to have agency in the narrative.

 

The writers seem to absolutely disdain the character of Laurel, she barely ever gets to make her own decisions and when she does they almost always result in failure. This has occurred in almost every episode and is evidenced by the widespread impression that she gets everything handed to her.

 

In her role as a lawyer she appears barely competent. In 3x01 alone, the dialogue for laurel stated that she is winning her cases in the DA's office due to the evidence the Arrow gathers. (how that evidence is admissible is another question entirely). Then they made her claim Quentin's 'surprise'. Then in the final scene, she had no agency or effect -  she was there to be simply be a witness to her sisters death - even at the very least she didn't attempt to perform CPR or call an ambulance.

 

This is all in the writing of the character.

 

On Laurels behalf - despite a lack of capability in her profession, I am still just a little bit hopeful that by the end of the season she claims her identity as a lawyer (not as a vigilante) and fights for the city that way. That she chooses justice over vengeance.

Edited October 12, 2014 by somewhereother

[KirkB]

I see no reason I can't continue ignoring Laurel in the mask and fishnets like I have been in her lawyer suit for the last two years. Making her a crime fighter and putting her beside Oliver isn't going to make me like or care about her. I am ambivalent enough about Laurel that it literally doesn't matter what they do with her, I can't think of a single thing they could do that would make me think enough about Laurel to even get annoyed.

[slayer2]

What is the sound of a mind being blown....that was it. Wow catbasket that plan is extraordinary and as someone who actually cares about Laurel it is even more engaging for me. Laurel learning from Nyssa would be killer. I understand they have hired Wildcat who may well do preliminary training but to give the good stuff to Nyssa would be so much more meaningful, and I agree about Sara being killed by an oranization not a person being a better option. Wow. Amazing ideas.

[statsgirl]

I feel like the show made it clear that Laurel got on with her life and more than anything, Oliver showing up alive was messing with her new reality since it brought back long buried pain and that I can buy, that Laurel has been a mess SINCE Oliver returned, but five years would have {or maybe in my opinion should have been) enough time to restart her life.  If she suffered constantly, it really does come off to me that she would have had to choose that mind set.

The show hobbled itself by wanting Laurel to be a strong, vigorous person, fighting for the rights of the little guy, and then saddling her with anger and resentment and longing for Oliver deep into season 2.  They wanted to show how strong she was by how well she got on with her life after the boat went down -- she got into law school and completed it, she got a job she loved at CNRI, she dealt with her father's drinking after her parents marriage broke up (after Laurel had moved away from home).  

 

It makes sense that she didn't get into a relationship during those five years.  Research on break-ups found that if you are the one being dumped, it takes five years on average to be able to get into another relationship.

 

I finally figured out how to say what I wanted to above about Laurel's anger not being justified.  It's the idea of objective vs subjective.  Objectively, Laurel has had the easiest life of any character on the show.  How much anger she feels at Oliver and Sara and her parents is subjective.

 

I still think a better cast actress could have made it work though.  Thea was a bitch in season 1 but Willa Holland made it work, making us feel Willa's resentment at her mother, trying to deal with all that was happening to her.  I think there is such a sense of Laurel being stuck in anger is that that's where KC feels most comfortable and that, along with Laurel crushing on Oliver, is what she portrays best.

 

I understand they have hired Wildcat who may well do preliminary training but to give the good stuff to Nyssa would be so much more meaningful,

It's a tempting thought but I can think of two reasons why it's not going to happen on the show. Nyssa is an assassin and they want to keep Laurel on the good side otherwise they might just as well have kept Sara. But the bigger reason is that it takes years to learn skills to that kind of level. Nyssa isn't going to hang around Starling City, putting her life on hold for 3 years to train Laurel, maybe longer since Laurel has a day job, and the EPs aren't going to send Laurel off the show to Nanda Parbat while she trains.  A time jump for Laurel's character would make the viewers who care about all the other characters and want to see their development furious.

[quarks]

From the Felicity thread:

 

that they can't see the problem that is Katie Cassidy's portrayal of Laurel,

 

Oh, I think they do. They've acknowledged it in interviews, they keep retooling the character attempting to find something that works, and they've continued to drastically reduce her screentime, and whenever possible have her interact with the one actor she's ok with - Blackthorne.  They've notably kept her apart from pretty much everyone else, except where absolutely necessary with Lotz, even with Amell, the actor the show is centered on; there's several episodes where they don't appear on screen together.  Even in this last episode, she was reduced to under three minutes of screentime - in the episode that is in theory the start of her path to Black Canary, where she should have had a more prominent role. Especially since this was an episode hyped as one new viewers could leap into.  Someone I know did start watching this show with just that one episode and had no idea who she was or why she would be catching a dead body and not calling 911.

And unless I'm really misreading things,

Laurel will have a prominent role in the next episode, as expected, and in episode 4, but will be sidelined in episode 3 (focusing on Corto Maltese, where she isn't going, and Felicity and Ray heating things up); episode 5 (Felicity's episode); and episodes 7 and 8 (she apparently wasn't around for filming during episode 7, and she's in none of the cast photos for the Flash crossover episode.)  That means she'll have significant screen time in three or at most four episodes in the first half of the season. 

These aren't things you do when you are unaware of the problem. Why she's still on the show is another question, but I don't think that awareness of the issue is the problem.

[fantique]

That article was good. It's so freaking nice to see someone who loves Laurel and can admit that sometimes they don't like her because the characterisation has made it so, instead of trying to rewrite script history and I love that she used what has been told/shown to us from the show for the argument. I want someone to post that article to KC... If she actually focused her BC-hood centred around her love -not envy- for Sara then so many things would go much smoother. I think that, while the writers failed to convey this and probably didn't conceptualise it as well as the author of the article, I can accept that this was the trade off they made in their mind when realising that Lauriver was B.A.D and worked for fewer people than expected. One scene I liked was when she goes to see Sara and asks her not to hate her, so it is possible for KC to show emotion that is believable when linked to Sara. I think that they are going to have to work extra hard on the character behind the scenes because their conception for this character is just off from the rest of the show. They need to make her more integral without shoving down our throats how wonderful and perfect she is, she's not. Neither is Oliver or Diggle or Felicity and I like them. I don't need them to be perfect to appreciate what they bring to the story. I think the author is right and that the thing that puts most people off Laurel is her anger. From the beginning a lot of her interactions with those we are more attached to has been anger (Oliver -though justified, disproportionate- and every member of the Lance family) or dismissal (Tommy -by seemingly not really giving her all in their relationship-, Felicity, Diggle). I also agree that while you can't put a measure on grief and she has suffered, the problem is the show tried to equate her hardships with those of people forced to become assassins and survived by killing others. She also needs to stop acting with romantic mindsets in her scenes with Oliver. It's actually really uncomfortable because I feel like SA acts extra rigid to make sure it does not come off as 'relationshippy' in any way. My bitterness with Sara dying so callously is slowly abating but it definitely coloured my appraisal of Laurel as once again a character the writers feel the need to build up only through others' demise. But I will try to look at it as Sara being the Tommy to Laurel's kickstart in trying to honour her legacy. Hopefully not right away though. 

[statsgirl]

But I still hate that Tommy died! And even with Tommy dying, except for being good in his relationship with Laurel, Tommy wasn't a better Arrow than Oliver was.

 

having chased this quote over three threads...

And unless I'm really misreading things,

Laurel will have a prominent role in the next episode, as expected, and in episode 4, but will be sidelined in episode 3 (focusing on Corto Maltese, where she isn't going, and Felicity and Ray heating things up); episode 5 (Felicity's episode); and episodes 7 and 8 (she apparently wasn't around for filming during episode 7, and she's in none of the cast photos for the Flash crossover episode.)  That means she'll have significant screen time in three or at most four episodes in the first half of the season. 

These aren't things you do when you are unaware of the problem. Why she's still on the show is another question, but I don't think that awareness of the issue is the problem.

Isn't episode 3 

where she meets Ted Grant?

 

My next question is, if they know there's a problem, why don't they try to fix it instead of pushing her into the leading Black Canary role right now?  I thought she worked really well in The Calm as a good lawyer and devoted daughter and if they had left her doing that for half a season, maybe people would have liked her more, especially if Sara is away from Starling City.  Why have that episode kick-start her superhero arc instead of later in the season?  

I think before Laurel starts her arc would have been a better place for Sara flashbacks, before Laurel starts her training because I can't see the contrast between the two doing Laurel any favors.

 

Maybe you are right that they know the problem but is their solution to

keep Sara and show her in flashbacks

?  That's just going to make the contrast between Laurel and Sara even more obvious.

 

The only thing I can think of is that it's in KC's contract to make her the Black Canary but that seems strange given that they weren't sure the show was going to last.  Do they put that sort of thing in contracts?

[slayer2]

The show hobbled itself by wanting Laurel to be a strong, vigorous person, fighting for the rights of the little guy, and then saddling her with anger and resentment and longing for Oliver deep into season 2. They wanted to show how strong she was by how well she got on with her life after the boat went down -- she got into law school and completed it, she got a job she loved at CNRI, she dealt with her father's drinking after her parents marriage broke up (after Laurel had moved away from home).

It makes sense that she didn't get into a relationship during those five years. Research on break-ups found that if you are the one being dumped, it takes five years on average to be able to get into another relationship.

I finally figured out how to say what I wanted to above about Laurel's anger not being justified. It's the idea of objective vs subjective. Objectively, Laurel has had the easiest life of any character on the show. How much anger she feels at Oliver and Sara and her parents is subjective.

I still think a better cast actress could have made it work though. Thea was a bitch in season 1 but Willa Holland made it work, making us feel Willa's resentment at her mother, trying to deal with all that was happening to her. I think there is such a sense of Laurel being stuck in anger is that that's where KC feels most comfortable and that, along with Laurel crushing on Oliver, is what she portrays best.

It's a tempting thought but I can think of two reasons why it's not going to happen on the show. Nyssa is an assassin and they want to keep Laurel on the good side otherwise they might just as well have kept Sara. But the bigger reason is that it takes years to learn skills to that kind of level. Nyssa isn't going to hang around Starling City, putting her life on hold for 3 years to train Laurel, maybe longer since Laurel has a day job, and the EPs aren't going to send Laurel off the show to Nanda Parbat while she trains. A time jump for Laurel's character would make the viewers who care about all the other characters and want to see their development furious.

I don't know about that. Anything's possible at this point and I enjoy the show regardless so I'm excited at the possibilities.

[wonderwall]

Now that I'm in the acceptance stage of Sara's death, I wanted to talk about Laurel and why I'm still weary about her. 

 

I feel like this episode was a reset button for Laurel. In the first episode you had Tommy saying "Dinah Laurel always trying to save the world" then Laurel has this accomplished look on her face as she walks away, and then in this episode you have Sara saying the same thing and Laurel literally has the same look as she walks away (might I add, it's the same walk too). I see that the writers are trying to re-do Laurel. Redo her 'crucible', redo what was supposed to be her character development in season 2. Laurel is essentially facing the same circumstance she did in season 2, but this time I think the writers are going to go about it the 'right' way. Unfortunately the writers forget that the audience never forgets what happened in the past. The audience won't brush all of Laurel's failures under the rug even if they write her that way... Hopefully they don't brush everything Laurel went through under the rug. I see that they've already forgotten about her drug/alcohol addiction which grates my nerves because it's a real issue and they did a crap job at portraying it.

 

My problem with killing off Sara so soon (because I just knew she was going to die. I think we all knew this) is that they didn't develop Laurel as a character, make her consistent, give her a good foundation before killing Sara off and sending Laurel onto her journey. In essence, they didn't let the audience acclimate themselves to Laurel before jump starting her journey. As Stephen Amell says, what's the point of all the fight scenes if you can't connect with the character? They should've stabilized Laurel's character, made her likable and sympathetic before they made her go on what's supposed to be a heart wrenching journey for her. I think this is what will make it tough for people to connect with Laurel.

 

Yes, I'm sure a lot of people will be excited about her turning into a badass, but that's just such a one-dimensional sort of love. For me, I want to feel for Laurel the way I do for Oliver and Sara, hopefully KC and the writers accomplishes this by creating a nuanced character on screen. I still feel indifferent towards her, hell I even resent her now. It's because of this that I didn't feel her pain in the end of the premiere as I did when Oliver lost his mother, I was just so disconnected from that moment. And I think it's because I still can't connect to Laurel as a person, a character.

 

I hope the writers do Laurel justice and not let Sara's death go to waste. And I don't mean by making her BC. I want the writers to make Laurel a compelling character because I don't give a damn if she's a superhero or not. If a character's story is more compelling than the character itself, I think that would be a failure on the show's part.

 

Laurel should flourish as a character first and as a superhero second. And the writers are already failing on this part. Which I think is quite sad. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[calliope1975]

 In essence, they didn't let the audience acclimate themselves to Laurel before jump starting her journey. 

 

I doubt I would have been able to like Laurel either way, but this is a huge reason I have no use for her character anymore. If they had let her be the lawyer who helped out Team Arrow occasionally, had her start to train with Ted Grant for whatever reason (maybe she gets mugged or just wants better self-defense skills), and just let her grow and breathe for a season, then at the end of this season or the beginning of next kill off Sara (which still would have pissed me off), I don't think I would have felt this angry and resentful of Laurel. But they didn't, and here we are.

[wonderwall]

I mean... I look at this gif and I feel nothing other than the amusing thought that KC is a terrible crier. And that shouldn't happen.

 

[Morrigan2575]

I feel like this episode was a reset button for Laurel. In the first episode you had Tommy saying "Dinah Laurel always trying to save the world" then Laurel has this accomplished look on her face as she walks away, and then in this episode you have Sara saying the same thing and Laurel literally has the same look as she walks away (might I add, it's the same walk too). I see that the writers are trying to re-do Laurel.

I deleted the episode bit I was informed by a couple if friends that they cut the Dinah from the scene, Sara only said Laurel Lance. I doubt it matters much at all but if that's true it's odd, especially since they released it as a dialogue tease.

[Danny Franks]

I doubt I would have been able to like Laurel either way, but this is a huge reason I have no use for her character anymore. If they had let her be the lawyer who helped out Team Arrow occasionally, had her start to train with Ted Grant for whatever reason (maybe she gets mugged or just wants better self-defense skills), and just let her grow and breathe for a season, then at the end of this season or the beginning of next kill off Sara (which still would have pissed me off), I don't think I would have felt this angry and resentful of Laurel. But they didn't, and here we are.

 

 

This would have been a much better way to handle her journey. Actually have her embark on it in the first season, instead of doing... whatever she did in season 1. I honestly can't really recall what was going on with her then. Her relationship with Tommy and the occasional case that she needed help with. Oh, and her crush on the Hood. Did I miss anything? Is that really all she was there for, in the first season?

 

Second season was even worse, with her being an alcoholic for ten minutes, losing her job then getting it back through blackmail, having dead end storylines with both Blood and the guy from Orphan Black (seriously, they went nowhere).

 

So what we got was two seasons of her being useless, and then you're being asked to suddenly accept that she's going to become this awesome hero. Who's going to buy that?

 

As for that gif, man I'm so glad I didn't watch. Because that's your leading lady. whether you like it or not.

[statsgirl]

True. I just checked. Sara says "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world."

 

Interesting.

 

 

So what we got was two seasons of her being useless, and then you're being asked to suddenly accept that she's going to become this awesome hero. Who's going to buy that?

Maybe that was what they were hopping for from Sara's death.   Being a lawyer didn't make her compelling, the addiction arc didn't make the majority of the audience feel for her, her relationship with Sara ended with Sara looking like the good sister. Maybe they are hoping that a vengeance arc will make people fall in love with her.

Edited October 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I deleted the episode bit I was informed by a couple if friends that they cut the Dinah from the scene, Sara only said Laurel Lance. I doubt it matters much at all but if that's true it's odd, especially since they released it as a dialogue tease.

 

Yeah, she did just say Laurel Lance. I didn't even notice that because I mentally tuned out (sorry, Sara). Are they retconning her full name or something?

 

ETA: Not that I think they ARE doing that, but if they were calling back to Tommy's line, why not add the Dinah?

Edited October 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Danny Franks]

Maybe that was what they were hopping for from Sara's death.   Being a lawyer didn't make her compelling, the addiction arc didn't make the majority of the audience feel for her, her relationship with Sara ended with Sara looking like the good sister. Maybe they are hoping that a vengeance arc will make people fall in love with her.

 

 

Maybe I have a sketchier understanding of what makes a character appealing than these writers do, but I don't see how anyone would be invested in a vengeance quest embarked upon by someone they already dislike. Even if the character they're looking to avenge was well liked. Just seems like... it'll make her even less appealing, because vengeance suggests a single-mindedness and self-obsession that Laurel has already displayed way too much of. It's hard to like people who are out for revenge, in my experience. 

 

Plus, it's Katie Cassidy, so she'll probably just play it as her being an asshole to anyone who tries to talk her down, like she did in season 2 when she hated the Arrow for twenty minutes.

 

But I admit I'm morbidly curious to see what they try after this, when a vocal section of the audience still doesn't like her.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, she did just say Laurel Lance. I didn't even notice that because I mentally tuned out (sorry, Sara). Are they retconning her full name or something?

ETA: Not that I think they ARE doing that, but if they were calling back to Tommy's line, why not add the Dinah?

Probably doesn't mean much of anything it's just odd since they went to the trouble of repeating Tommy's line plus they teased the Dialogue.

[icandigit]

 

True. I just checked. Sara says "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world."

I didn't watch that part. Sara said that. In two seasons that has never described the character I've seen on my screen. In season 1 when she was supposedly helping people, she didn't seem like a crusader for the downtrodden. She just seemed stubborn towards her dad's advice regarding her own safety. 

[statsgirl]

Plus, it's Katie Cassidy, so she'll probably just play it as her being an asshole to anyone who tries to talk her down, like she did in season 2 when she hated the Arrow for twenty minutes.

Maybe, if they write it right, they can make that work for her.  It's KC's strength.

 

it seems like they're tried everything else -- crusading lawyer, hating then loving daughter, vengeful ex, addict, jealous sister, loving sister, Arrow fangirl, anti-Arrow crusader,, Nancy Drew investigator -- and nothing has made a large part of the audience love her. If they're determined to keep her on the show as the Black Canary, what else can they do?

 

 

 She just seemed stubborn towards her dad's advice regarding her own safety. 

One of the people I got into watching Arrow was just mentioning that.  She loves that part, and also when Tommy arrives at the door and asks "How are you, sir?" and Quentin replies "Proficient with handguns". The person I was talking to feels like her own father doesn't care about her and she loves how much Quentin cares about his daughters. She wishes her father would act like that, but Laurel just resents it.  It's another example of how good Laurel's got it, and how much she uses it to fuel her anger.

[Sakura12]

That was my question. When has Laurel ever saved the world that warrants people to keep saying that to her? I haven't seen her do anything that wasn't a personal gain for her. Her little sister dying is even going to benefit her. 

[statsgirl]

Maybe other people have to keep saying it because we never see it on screen other than she worked at CNRI but even then she was doing shady things.

 

This occasion certainly didn't warrant it.  She's a lawyer working for the DA's office (when she couldn't get a job at another firm and blackmailed Kate Spencer to get it) and it's her job to be there for interrogations.

 

If anyone in that scenario was trying to save the world, it was Oliver and his team. With Sara helping them.

Edited October 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

 

The person I was talking to feels like her own father doesn't care about her and she loves how much Quentin cares about his daughters.

I really liked that aspect of season 1.

 

I don't know much about comics, but from a creative perspective I never understood why they didn't show her more connected to The Glades. Or have minor story lines involving the people there or having friends there. They never gave her a connection to the setting other than look she's a CNRI. I just can't stop beating this dead horse.  It's just her character could have been relevant.

Edited October 12, 2014 by icandigit

[TanyaKay]

I mean... I look at this gif and I feel nothing other than the amusing thought that KC is a terrible crier. And that shouldn't happen.

 

 

Keeping in mind that this was probably the best of many takes of the scene, it truly is terrible.

[Morrigan2575]

If anyone in that scenario was trying to save the world, it was Oliver and his team. With Sara helping them.

What's really sad is that Laurel got pulled away because The Arrow stopped a drug dealer and she's telling Sara about that but Sara helped the Arrow stop them.

[fantique]

But I still hate that Tommy died! And even with Tommy dying, except for being good in his relationship with Laurel, Tommy wasn't a better Arrow than Oliver was.

Oh I was just saying that Sara will be the motivation that Tommy was for Oliver (not being a killer and helping the city) if they have enough sense not to go the Revenge! route. Her being supposedly superhero material pains me but I refuse to watch her angst and whinging...AGAIN.

 

I can't threaten to not watch this coming season because I watched 9 seasons of Supernatural being soooo over Sam's bitchiness and whiny attitude with self-righteousness sprinkled on top but I have found that in this great time of TV, my interest in a show can just... poof, disappear. One thing is for sure though, There are 2 failsafe ways to make things so bad that they could turn me off this show for good: 1) Them screwing up Felicity and 2) Canonisation of Laurel as a saint and being the crème de la crème of superheroes. 1) being the biggest offence they could commit in my eyes and 2) health reasons: just so I don't roll my eyes so hard my contacts actually go to the back of my eye.

Edited October 17, 2014 by fantique

[tv echo]

It's a tempting thought but I can think of two reasons why it's not going to happen on the show. Nyssa is an assassin and they want to keep Laurel on the good side otherwise they might just as well have kept Sara. But the bigger reason is that it takes years to learn skills to that kind of level. Nyssa isn't going to hang around Starling City, putting her life on hold for 3 years to train Laurel, maybe longer since Laurel has a day job, and the EPs aren't going to send Laurel off the show to Nanda Parbat while she trains.  A time jump for Laurel's character would make the viewers who care about all the other characters and want to see their development furious.

I'm going to respond in the Hopes and Fears thread.

[bravelittletoaster]

I think she'll be the Mary Sue of vigilantes

 

Nailed it.  That pretty succinctly sums up my issues with this whole character arc.  

[Sakura12]

If they wanted to make a show with LL's Canary what would the beginning be? 

 

"My name is Laurel Lance, 6 years ago I found out my younger sister and my boyfriend were having an affair when they died in a shipwreck together. 

As it turned out they were both still alive. The experiences they faced while they were away made them into kickass heroes that are saving our city. I wanted to be like them, so when my sister was brutally murdered, I decided to put on her mask and jacket, added the color of her outfit to the name she choose and took her place"

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[SonofaBiscuit]

If they wanted to make a show with LL's Canary what would the beginning be? 

 

"My name is Laurel Lance, 6 years ago I found out my younger sister and my boyfriend were having an affair when they died in a shipwreck together. 

As it turned out they were both still alive. The experiences they faced while they were away made them into kickass heroes that are saving our city. I wanted to be like them, so when my sister was brutally murdered, I decided to put on her mask, add the color of her outfit to the name she choose and took her place"

 

You forgot about the jacket.

[KirkB]

"My name is Dinah Lance. Laurel Lance died with my sister Sara. I left Starling City with my sister's ex-girlfriend to train with the League of Assassins. When I get back they will fear the Black Canary."

[Sakura12]

I don't like that scenario because why would Nyssa take Laurel? She was nothing to her, that's why she shot her with a tranq when she tried to talk her and Sara. That will also look like to me another attempt for Laurel to just replace Sara. Oh, well Sara's dead I guess we'll take her 30 year old sister and train her for no reason. 

[KirkB]

It may not have come across but I was being sarcastic. That's the kind of intro I imagined the EP's giving Laurel in her own show.

Edited October 16, 2014 by KirkB

[Ariah]

"My name is Dinah Laurel Lance. Six years ago i lost my boyfriend and my sister. A year ago i lost my other boyfriend. Now I've lost my sister again. I cannot let all my pain be wasted. I need to continue my sister's work and get back my first boyfriend who is my soulmate I know... Also, this is a pretty good jacket my sister left me."

 

For those of you who watch Once Upon a Time... It hit me today why I dislike Laurel. She's the Neal of Arrow.

 

Both characters are great on paper and should evoke sympathy. But something went wrong. The writers tried hard to make the characters work, they killed off good characters in order to make them likeable. They invented storylines to showcase some crazy skills. But nothing worked out in the end.

[SonofaBiscuit]

SPOILER ALERT: Well, at least OUAT knew when to cut their losses.

[tv echo]

#1 Reason Not to Trust Laurel:
Laurel has no compunction about abusing her power to get what she wants, whether that power comes from her job, her father, or her knowledge of secrets.

 

- When she was stopped for a DUI by a traffic cop, she said "do you know who I am? I'm an ADA" and he called her father.
- When she wanted her DA job back, she threatened Kate Spencer with exposing their secret plot to catch Helena to the media.
- When she was a teenager, she used her knowledge that Sara wanted to hook up with Oliver at a party to sabotage her sister.

- When she wanted access to the injured bad guy in "Sara", she bullied the police officers guarding the door with threats of her police captain father, their boss.

 

Now that she knows Oliver's secret identity, I wouldn't be surprised if she uses that knowledge in the future to her own benefit.  If I were Felicity, Diggle or Roy, I wouldn't confide any secrets to Laurel - she'd probably use that information to manipulate them.

Edited October 17, 2014 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

#1 Reason Not to Trust Laurel:

Laurel has no compunction about abusing her power to get what she wants, whether that power comes from her job, her father, or her knowledge of secrets.

 

This is why I find it mind-boggling that they want to turn Laurel into a Good Vigilante, instead of having her Amanda Waller shades of grey.

[wonderwall]

There were a lot of mixed emotions regarding Laurel in last night's episode. Some people loved her, some people were annoyed by her, some people couldn't connect with her, and some people were just outright indifferent. I fall into the last two categories and I'll explain why the writers are already failing Laurel's arc.

 

[disclaimer: this is all in my opinion]

 

I've already stated time and time again that Laurel Lance is a failure of a character and here's the main reason why:

• Her character has been written so inconsistently that I honestly don't know who Laurel Lance is. I don't know what she stands for and I don't understand her relationships on the show. This inconsistency isn't only in the narrative though, it's also in what the EPs want us to believe and what we actually see on screen. 
• "Laurel remains a character defined more by the stuff that happens to her" and unfortunately, we never see any scenes of hers where her personality just shines just like Felicity and Diggle. 
• All in all, Laurel is a pretty flat character who's been through a lot of stuff. 

 

Already Laurel is a fundamentally weak character because what do we truly know about her? Everything she's done, everything she's been through, all of her characteristics have always been cancelled out in every other episode and we all had to deal with this poor characterization for two whole years. This in turn made people  bitter or indifferent towards Laurel. This sort of mentality towards Laurel doesn't change in an instant. So when something happens to Laurel that's supposed to be gut wrenching (like when Tommy died or when Sara died) we're usually left out in the cold because we don't know Laurel enough to sympathize with her, and for some people, we don't connect with Laurel because of poor acting. Laurel isn't fully developed enough as a character to go on a strong emotional journey, one that all of us will connect to. 

 

And I think this is where the writers are failing us. All summer long I was desperately hoping for Laurel's character to flourish, for her character to finally be consistent. Her journey doesn't mean anything to me if I can't connect with her character but not everyone feels this way and that's fine. I've seen a lot of people who were on the fence with Laurel (hell, even disliked her) start to like her because she started to be more 'badass' as well as more important to the 'A' plot. In short, they're more excited for Laurel's journey more than they are for Laurel herself. This kind of love and excitement is very superficial to me because it can instantly change as soon as the writers make a misstep regarding Laurel. Instead of rebuilding her foundation and making her a stronger character with a distinct personality, they went the easy route to appease some viewers, and that was to start Laurel on the journey to badass superhero. They are building on top of an already crumbling foundation which is worrisome because they're essentially setting her character up to fail at some point. This is not how you make a viewer love a character, this is how you make a viewer excited for a character's arc which is a major difference.

 

What's funny about the last episode is that we could tell that Oliver and Felicity were acting out of character because we know them so well, but I didn't hear anyone say that Laurel was acting out of character or in character, and this is because we don't have a proper understanding of her yet. People love Oliver and Felicity because of who they are, not for who they're going to become or what relationship they're going to be in. I've seen so many people give Laurel a free pass on the stupid decisions she's made because her sister just died. I agree. I think we should give her a free pass. But this free pass has an expiration date. What will happen and how will the audience react when she's still making idiotic decisions in the future?

 

This episode showed to me that the writers don't really care for Laurel because of the way they wrote her (incompetent, idiotic for bringing Sara into the cave instead of calling for a doctor or anyone, selfish for not telling Quentin) as well as the way they had to force her into the cave by bringing Sara in when it didn't make any sense which in turn pulled the viewers out of the scene and ask, how the hell did she do that? What was supposed to be an emotional scene turned into a scene that viewers didn't really understand. In short, I feel like the writers have always thought about getting from point A to point B with Laurel with little regard to how she gets there. And I feel like the that's where we start to lose Laurel. I think this is deeply problematic and it's even more problematic that they haven't changed how they've written her. 

 

The way the writers are heading, I don't think we'll get that same understanding of Laurel as we do with Oliver/Digg/Felicity because we've known them for 2 years, they've grown as characters whereas Laurel hasn't and still isn't. You can't build a character on what they go through. I'd argue that certain events have a tendency to shape people, but that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to shape, not make. 

 

Now I have a question. When are the writers going to understand this? Character > Plot. What makes an arc more compelling is a compelling character and Laurel just isn't there yet and to be honest, I don't think we'll ever see that which is highly disappointing. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

 

I didn't hear anyone say that Laurel was acting out of character or in character, and this is because we don't have a proper understanding of her yet.

There was a lot about Laurel this episode that I feel was in character.  The way she barked orders at Felicity, telling her to go to Verdant to meet her (why? Felicity could have done it on her tablet) and angry at Oliver when he fell off the bike after the joust because the other guy got away.  Except when she was giving orders to Felicity, the only member of Team Arrow she had time for was Oliver.

 

She decided for her father whether or not to tell him, and he couldn't say goodbye to Sara when they buried her.  She refused to listen to Oliver and got the gun and went after Komodo herself, and then was going to kill him even though he wasn't the one who shot Sara.  She lied her way into the hospital room and physically hurt the guy to get information. Then she went to the window where the arrow had come in.  At the grave site, she got all upset that this was no way to bury Sara when she was the person who had made the decision to hide it.  

 

These are all consistent with the Laurel Lance we've known over two seasons. They're not good things, but they are consistent.

[wonderwall]

Lmao I'm thinking of submitting this to jbuffyangel on tumblr because I really like her thoughts...

 

Screw it, I'll do it. i want some insight and I want to be proven wrong. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

She does serve a purpose, just because a few people dislike her character doesn't diminish that fact

 

 

I would like to know (not being sarcastic here), what is the purpose of Laurel Lance on Arrow?  What does she offer that nobody else can?

[Sakura12]

They had to kill off other characters to give Laurel something do to. Before that she wasn't needed. Of course at that rate if they keep killing off characters she'll be the only one left. Then I guess she'll be needed.

 

Or her purpose is "Because comics" That's the one the EP's, KC fans and KC always use. 

[catrox14]

You'd think KC would be a better crier, what with hanging out with Crying Winchesters for a season...

[doesntworkonwood]

The more I look at this, the more I want to laugh

 

[Pyramid]

God I'm at the stage where just seeing her face annoys me. I mean I'd seen her on SPN and was pretty neutral, but this character is just a complete omnishambles.