The Kingpin: Just A Legitimate Businessman

[David T. Cole]

Your Kingpin topic.

[insubordination]

So excited about the casting of Vincent D'Onofrio. He's a committed and interesting actor with a definite screen presence. They're lucky to get him.

 

I am growing bored of 'Arrow' and I might tune into 'The Flash', but this casting of D'Onofrio puts 'Daredevil' on the must-see list for me.

[Actionmage]

I am excited at D'Onofrio's casting, too. Maybe we can get an occasional "Goren Lean" when Fisk has to get face-to-face with an underling or bothersome crusader or whatever.  :) 

 

I think that Michael Clarke Duncan was robbed of showing us what a great meaty role it was and now we'll never see him deliver. Not Vincent's fault, I know.  Hearing that an actor that is so good is stepping into the role makes the bitter in the bittersweet a bit less, if that makes any sense.

[WendyCR72]

First look: Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin.

[WendyCR72]

A wee bit late now, but I saw on his FB page that VDO was having a Twitter Q&A with the hashtag #askfisk at 4 ET/ 1 PT.

[Actionmage]

Mr. D'Onofrio is owning every scene he's in, as if that's a surprise to anyone. So very glad he took the part.

 

He and Ayelet Zurer are dynamic together even if they are just looking at a white square or at each other! Dammit, Wilson and Vanessa are really cool together, so far. His vulnerability and her demand for honesty ( and returning that) and her support are feels different from what we've seen before.

 

Wilson's relationships with his business partners seems so specialized, yet aren't.

 

I find I need to know more about his time in Asia.

 

I just am enjoying Wilson Fisk in a way I didn't think I could.

[Potanical Pardon]

I don't remember much from Vincent's past acting...just that I recognize and remember him. After seeing the supporting cast of this show and the other villains introduced and fleshed out I was starting to worry that the actor might have a difficult time making Fisk believably more threatening than the other villains. VDO has been great! I love the nuanced stutters and little moments that humanize villains - they're not just 100% evil 24/7. The show put it best (paraphrased): "There isn't good or bad, there are just different agendas."

 

I actually found myself agreeing with Fisk's ideology pretty much the entire season. Was waiting for Matt or anyone to come up with a good counterargument but nothing they gave me was convincing...especially during all that tenement housing stuff. I'm sorry, but Elena's "This is my home" argument when it's a shithole, physically dangerous, necessitating cooking all your meals at a neighbor's, dirty running water, dangerous ne'er-do-wells, being not dissimilar to a number of other shitholes out there to choose from if one so wishes, and being paid what seemed like a relatively substantial amount (and then double that) to counter rent control elsewhere...I just can't sympathize.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Tandaemonium

[Winnief]

D'Onofrio's Kingpin is another highlight of this show for me, and he's turning in a powerhouse of a performance, making Wilson Fisk one of the most complicated and fascinating comic book villains I've ever seen.  And DAMN, if he and Vanessa (and isn't Ayelet radiant?) aren't the most captivating and romantic ship on the show. 

[Actionmage]

I don't know that I'd call them the most romantic on the show, but I totally buy that Vanessa is Cookie Lyons' ride-or-die for Wilson. Their dynamic is quieter than Cookie and Luscious, but about as intense. It makes me want to know more about Vanessa.

 

I also wonder if Wilson's 'I'm not good at...this'-ness is because he just wasn't good in the past, he was hyper-focused on whatever his other, younger goals were, or if he his beginnings in criminality cost him in some ways so he just didn't date until Vanessa interested him.

[WendyCR72]

He's evil, he's a menace, and he deserves his unfortunate fate, however it turns out (have to watch the last few!), but damned if I don't love VDO's take on this role. I like that Wilson Fisk, while a monster, still has somewhat of a sympathetic background and like how his awkwardness with Vanessa may be one of the only vestiges of true humanity left. Someone said VDO described Fisk at NYCC as a monster and a child. It's perfect.

 

And, okay. Matt Murdock may be more conventionally hot, but even as Fisk is a complete bastard murderer/torturer, he intrigues me a hell of a lot more. Yeah, I'm warped. Proudly so!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yes, I felt sorry for the child Wilson Fisk was, but what he endured and had to do as a child, does not excuse the monster he chose to become. So while I can feel for the child, I hate, loathe despise and am scared of the man he is now.

 

I feel like I know more about the character of Fisk, from his showing up on my other shows that I watched. Yes, yes, they were cartoons...but I still got the menace, charm, debonairishness...

 

But Matt/Daredevil? Blank Slate, since I know hardly anything, and he does intrigue me more! Or rather, Cox's take on him. We won't sully this thread with talk of Affleck's take on him.

[Actionmage]

but Elena's "This is my home" argument when it's a shithole, physically dangerous, necessitating cooking all your meals at a neighbor's, dirty running water, dangerous ne'er-do-wells, being not dissimilar to a number of other shitholes out there to choose from if one so wishes, and being paid what seemed like a relatively substantial amount (and then double that) to counter rent control elsewhere...I just can't sympathize.

 

The tenement was destroyed by the slumlord, Tully, in a move to get the tenants out and gentrify the block ( the  housing the current tenants couldn't afford.) The "workmen" "afraid" for their "safety" were sent by Tully with the intention to do as much damage/ stop in the middle of "repairs". Nobu and his people wanted the area Elena and her neighbors lived in. they did not care what happened to those already there.

 

The stuff cited about why the tenants are being unsympathetic? Was done at the behest of Tully and further up the chain, possible Fisk. So he could tear down the building, rebuild it ( as it needed re-zoning permits, so possible apartments/condos over retail), price it out of the current tenant's ability to pay, and keep his criminal enterprise cash filling up.  I see nothing good about gentrification. It helps everyone but the people currently living in the area that is to be "improved".  People in that building had built lives in that neighborhood for years. Despite the local crime, despite the lack of glamor, and despite the city's will to not do anything there before Fisk &Co. decided to do something.

 

Fisk may have wanted to "carve something beautiful" out of the supposed ugliness, but he didn't do it for the people that lived in that ugliness.

 

(If there have been good gentrifications, ones that actually helped folks who lived in the areas improved? That is wonderful, truly. This is about Wilson Fisk and his various facets, one of which is villain. Also, slumlord.)

[Potanical Pardon]

Whether Fisk did it for the city/people or himself doesn't matter. Sure, he probably did do it for himself. Added bonus: people who are more inclined to have a higher probability to contribute to society will benefit. Is that fair to the people who spent their lives there? No, but life's not fair. We all have people coming in and out of our lives as we also do in others lives that can range from inconvenience to peril. Do the inconvenienced deserve to not be inconvenienced? No, but they do have the right to demand to not be, as Elena and those in similar situations represent. It's still poor decision-making, stubborn and emotional. It's not unlike the justness/unjustness of the law - the facts are, there's opportunity and value in those properties. It's current residents aren't capitalizing on it, but there are outside interests that are and will who have spent their time and resources towards goals that are selfish but probably domino into benefiting others. 

 

None of this defines Fisk as a villain - intent. The outside criminal organizations and murder do, of course, but not the "Oh the big bad man is being mean to an old lady" stuff. Foggy was right - it is his fault. He should have insisted on Elena taking the offer. Same goes for Karen. In their crusade to save the people of Hell's Kitchen, which could be construed as self-serving itself in the goal to feel relevant/have a purpose, these same people suffer just to motivate their own philosophies - not unlike Fisk. Fisk and his friends introduce drugs, violence and other elements that have traditionally brought down communities of people in order to achieve their goals of actually countering those very things. The same can be said of Karen, Matt and Foggy...all they're doing is enabling the same mindset within those communities to continue doing what they have been doing by bailing them out of life-changing moments and returning them to the comfortable familiar.

 

My experience with gentrification varies. More times than not, I've benefited from it solely as a consumer. Other times, I've felt the locations chosen may have been ill-advised/lame/fad-ish. Generally, though, I don't have a problem with the concept. Displacement, emotional-ties just doesn't sway me because the individuals and families involved are compensated, sometimes fairly, sometimes not, but if the parties agree to terms, it was their choice, coercion not withstanding. Emotional ties, memories, nostalgia, roots - they're intangible mental blocks and chemical secretions to the brain triggering feelings of longing/loss/euphoria - not unlike exactly what many cults, organizations and communities focus on in order to recruit/sustain themselves. Elena's fine living in a literal hole-in-the-wall, with no utilities running, surrounded by desperation and violence to the sides, above and below, and cooking daily meals elsewhere. The state of the building got ruined from negligence for many years and not just due to the Battle of New York. It doesn't matter why repairmen did show up and did not finish - there is no rational person that would want to live in those conditions if they had the means to leave. Fair or unfair compensation - she was offered something above her current means.

 

I guess I lean towards villainous tendencies. Heh.

[Actionmage]

Fisk and his friends introduce drugs, violence and other elements that have traditionally brought down communities of people in order to achieve their goals of actually countering those very things. The same can be said of Karen, Matt and Foggy...all they're doing is enabling the same mindset within those communities to continue doing what they have been doing by bailing them out of life-changing moments and returning them to the comfortable familiar.

 

 

I guess that I just can't equate keeping people supplied in illegal narcotics, stealing people for human trafficking, braking laws and bribing law-makers in order to keep yourself in the 1% is exactly the same as trying to keep people in their homes. Just because the apartment wasn't posh doesn't mean they should just move because someone richer wants their block. Nobu wanted the block and that apartment building was part of that block.

 

Foggy was right the first time; it would have been malfeasance not to fight a known and actionable slumlord like Tully. It was Wilson who upped the stakes and was the ultimate cause of misery in Elena and her neighbor's case. He even just killed Elena as bait, not giving a tinker's damn about anyone else but himself and Matt.

 

We're just going to have to have different views on this point.

[starri]

It doesn't matter why repairmen did show up and did not finish - there is no rational person that would want to live in those conditions if they had the means to leave. Fair or unfair compensation - she was offered something above her current means.

Quibble:  Those weren't repairmen.  They were thugs whose job was to make the apartments so unlivable that Elena and her neighbors who had rent-controlled apartments would be forced out so that Fisk could raze the place.  And that's not even something that's confined to fiction.

[Potanical Pardon]

That's what I mean. It doesn't matter if they're repairmen or not/finished or intentionally did not because their whole purpose is to coerce and harass- rational people won't stick around out of just stubbornness, righteousness and pride. It's just not worth the grief.

 

I guess that I just can't equate keeping people supplied in illegal narcotics, stealing people for human trafficking, braking laws and bribing law-makers in order to keep yourself in the 1% is exactly the same as trying to keep people in their homes. Just because the apartment wasn't posh doesn't mean they should just move because someone richer wants their block. Nobu wanted the block and that apartment building was part of that block.

 

Foggy was right the first time; it would have been malfeasance not to fight a known and actionable slumlord like Tully. It was Wilson who upped the stakes and was the ultimate cause of misery in Elena and her neighbor's case. He even just killed Elena as bait, not giving a tinker's damn about anyone else but himself and Matt.

 

We're just going to have to have different views on this point.

It's cool. I guess I actually can equate the two because I see both sides equally providing/enabling the free will and choices to harm and endanger their fellow man/woman. For me, the sordidness of the acts themselves doesn't diminish the culpability of inaction and/or preservation by those who would oppose them. The greed and opportunism of the rich, I just see as survival of the fittest, dog-eat-dog. I figure that's the exact motivation as to why Matt and Foggy are doing what they're doing as attorneys (and Matt as Daredevil)...to do the same giving their community a better chance of survival and competing against those with more resources. I love the idea of the show arguing "What's fair? What's the point of fairness? Should fairness be a goal? Is it just? Is it a distraction?" that is what I'm taking away from the show as its theme.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Tandaemonium

[Pogojoco]

Vincent D'O reminds me so much of Brando as Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, beyond the rotundness and the baldness, but some of the mannerisms, too. It makes me wonder if Brando is some sort of inspiration. 

 

I really find this character interesting and the fact that he and Murdock sort of dance around the same ideas, both have ideas about their city, about corruption, are violent with very physical fathers who loom large in their lives. 

[solea]

VDO has been great! I love the nuanced stutters and little moments that humanize villains

 

 

So do I.  Monochrome villainy is boring.  Yet bored is what I feel with VDO/Fisk.  I want so badly to buy in to what he's selling, because I'm all in with every other character, but it ain't happening.  It's all on the page: Bullied and abused childhood, self-made man, the dichotomy of the capable businessman combined with being shy and socially tentative, being soft-spoken hiding the rage just beneath...the character is fascinating.  Or should be.  I just can't put my finger on why, although it's portrayed on screen, I'm not feeling it from D'Onofrio's performance.  His Fisk, for me, is a soggy paper towel left on the counter.  Everytime he shows up I play a game on my phone.

[poppy-]

I still think of Vincent D'Onofrio as the guy from that really good episode of Homicide, so, I thought he wore a really convincing fat suit for this role. But no. He just got older. Like me.

Is he supposed to be superhuman ? Or just a really strong guy with the power of rage and good armor? And mad omelette making skills.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Is he supposed to be superhuman ? Or just a really strong guy with the power of rage and good armor? And mad omelette making skills.

In the comics, he's not superhuman, but he's built like a sumo wrestler. (As in, what looks like fat is actually mostly muscle.) He can easily hold his own against the best trained fighters, and even gave Spider-Man a run for his money. And the average joe? Well, ask that Russian mobster from the end of Episode 4....

[spaceytraci1208]

I think I'd enjoy D'Onofrio's performance more if it were more subtle. The way he speaks annoys the crap out of me. I understand that it's supposed to reveal the insecurity that lies beneath, but I think it would be more effective if it only surfaced at certain times (ex: his first date with Vanessa). A generally stoic Wilson Fisk who only periodically reveals the cracks in his psyche would be phenomenal.

[starri]

I still think of Vincent D'Onofrio as the guy from that really good episode of Homicide, so, I thought he wore a really convincing fat suit for this role. But no. He just got older. Like me.

I'm not sure if it's just aging and he's passing it off as something else, but he was quoted as saying that he'd gained weight for the part.

[WendyCR72]

I'm not sure if it's just aging and he's passing it off as something else, but he was quoted as saying that he'd gained weight for the part.

 

Well, I could see that, given the character's size in the comics. He was heavier by the end of L&O: CI (although it looked like he had actually lost weight by S10 in comparison to seasons 7 and 8), but not as heavy as he is here. So I tend to believe VDO did specifically gain weight for the role.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So I tend to believe VDO did specifically gain weight for the role.

 

 

He did. He's what they call a method actor. I mean, DeNiro packed on the weight to play Capone in The Untouchables, and Christian Bale in  what was that movie, where he lost so much weight, he looked practically skeletal? Oh! The Machinist. Then he had to pack on the pounds real fast to play Bats in Batman Begins.

 

And I think I also read somewhere where he said he did put on the weight for this role.

[ottoDbusdriver]

And I think I also read somewhere where he said he did put on the weight for this role.

 

You look at VDO in his earlier roles in Full Metal Jacket and Adventures in Babysitting -- he was 1/2 the size that the Kingpin appears to be.

[GHScorpiosRule]

You look at VDO in his earlier roles in Full Metal Jacket and Adventures in Babysitting -- he was 1/2 the size that the Kingpin appears to be.

 

Well, yeah. Because those movies were nearly 30 years ago. Also, he put on weight specifically for this role. Kingpin/Fisk is supposed to be this humongous behemoth, after all. Not some slim or even a normal size guy.

[WendyCR72]

You look at VDO in his earlier roles in Full Metal Jacket and Adventures in Babysitting -- he was 1/2 the size that the Kingpin appears to be.

 

To be fair, VDO was in his 20s in those movies. How many of us still look like we did in our 20s?

[Kel Varnsen]

I still think of Vincent D'Onofrio as the guy from that really good episode of Homicide, so, I thought he wore a really convincing fat suit for this role. But no. He just got older. Like me.

 

To me he looks like some weird combination of a big scary monster and a giant baby (the round body and big bald head, plus the facial expressions totally make me think baby). And the baby thing kind of works since sometimes when he loses all control he seems to lash out like a baby that can't properly express themselves throwing a tantrum (when he killed Owsley it totally reminded me of that). 

[that one guy]

Posted this in the episode 11 thread before I knew this was here:

The thing with this episode is that in murdering Ben, Fisk finally becomes a less than sympathetic villain. Previously he's only been killing his criminal collaborators - all of whom were much bigger scumbags than he is. The old lady in the apartment building was actually killed off by that Japanese demon ninja guy to lure Daredevil into a trap in revenge for what Stick did - nothing to do with Fisk at all.

Previously I was kind of sympathetic. What's his evil plan, gentrify Hell's Kitchen? In the real world that's already happened. The tactics he's using to clear the tenants out of their building really happened - this is the story of how developers cleared out the Windermere building at 9th and 57th in the early 80s. My own neighborhood in Chicago also has too many gunshots etc. and I'd love for some more gentrification to kick in. Fisk really was more or less trying to help the city. Sad that he had to get in bed with heroin dealers from hell (possibly literally) to get it done, but you can't make an omelet etc. Plus I just kind of like the big awkward lug, so I was on Team Fisk more or less until he killed off Ben. Because freedom of the press is all sacred and stuff.

 

I kinda think VDO's performance was so good it undermined the show a little bit, because I sympathised with him so much, I was like "goddamned NIMBY whiners and their obnoxious activist superpowered lawyers, it's a wonder anything gets built anymore."

[ribboninthesky1]

So do I.  Monochrome villainy is boring.  Yet bored is what I feel with VDO/Fisk.  I want so badly to buy in to what he's selling, because I'm all in with every other character, but it ain't happening.  It's all on the page: Bullied and abused childhood, self-made man, the dichotomy of the capable businessman combined with being shy and socially tentative, being soft-spoken hiding the rage just beneath...the character is fascinating.  Or should be.  I just can't put my finger on why, although it's portrayed on screen, I'm not feeling it from D'Onofrio's performance.  His Fisk, for me, is a soggy paper towel left on the counter.  Everytime he shows up I play a game on my phone.

 

I was rather underwhelmed as well.  But I think the writing was as much of a problem for me - not sure if Fisk's backstory is canon, but the "shitty childhood to explain the adult psychosis/narcissism/villainy" trope rarely resonates with me.  I tend to find the charismatic villains more believable, as I get why people would be loyal.  I mean, even without Daredevil's interference, I feel like that alliance with other criminal heads would have imploded. I often wondered how Fisk became financially successful when he was so socially awkward. 

 

I think I'd enjoy D'Onofrio's performance more if it were more subtle. The way he speaks annoys the crap out of me. I understand that it's supposed to reveal the insecurity that lies beneath, but I think it would be more effective if it only surfaced at certain times (ex: his first date with Vanessa). A generally stoic Wilson Fisk who only periodically reveals the cracks in his psyche would be phenomenal.

 

Yes, this. 

[JustaPerson]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/im-not-a-monster-am-i#.lirP567p8a

 

XD

[WendyCR72]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/im-not-a-monster-am-i#.lirP567p8a

 

XD

 

That's pretty damned awesome.  :-)

[Ottis]

I kinda think VDO's performance was so good it undermined the show a little bit, because I sympathised with him so much, I was like "goddamned NIMBY whiners and their obnoxious activist superpowered lawyers, it's a wonder anything gets built anymore."

 

 

Count me in on those who love the way VDO is depicting Kingpin. He made the bad guys much more interestin than DD in season one. Sadly, when he went full evil, he lost a lot of his appeal. I liked it when the battle was between two competing, reasonable philosophies on how to make Hell's Kitchen a better place.

[Bec]

It just occured to me Fisk has a very "you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs" attitude towards how to make the city "a better place". And what do we see him making in his kitchen all the time? Omelettes. OMG, everything on this show has some kind of double meaning! Nicely done, show, nicely done.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Sadly, when he went full evil, he lost a lot of his appeal. I liked it when the battle was between two competing, reasonable philosophies on how to make Hell's Kitchen a better place.

 

 

Fisk was always "full on evil" as far as I'm concerned. We knew that he was behind everything--Wesley was his mouthpiece after all. He just became more obvious about it as the season progressed. But he was always the bad guy.

[ribboninthesky1]

I might have been more persuaded by or conflicted by Fisk's perspective on Hell's Kitchen if he started out trying to be legitimate, became frustrated by little to no progress, and changed his strategy.  But as laid out on the show, he immediately aligned with the criminal underworld.  I thought it was funny how he seemed to regard the Russians as beneath him when he was as undisciplined and ruthless as they were. He had more money to throw around, but ultimately, birds of a feather and all that. The Russian brothers didn't pretend they were trying to make Hell's Kitchen a better place.  

 

I never understood how aligning with the criminal Russians, Chinese, and Japanese would aid in gentrification and clearing out the "undesirables." It's not even a question of "Who's right? What's fair?" to me because by taking over blocks of Hell's Kitchen, it seemed to me that you're luring the very element of people you were trying to eliminate.  No sane, financially privileged, potentially influential citizens would knowingly move there, if only to avoid association with said element.  If you were so inclined, you could reap the financial benefits from said criminal activity and keep your home in well-established cushy areas. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Bec]

I might have been more persuaded by or conflicted by Fisk's perspective on Hell's Kitchen if he started out trying to be legitimate, became frustrated by little to no progress, and changed his strategy.

Maybe that's what happened between killing his dad with a hammer and when we first met him on the show and he's already stinkin' rich. There are a lot of years in there we know next to nothing about.

 

I'm not sure how well it would have worked for Fisk's start in the criminal world to be within the current timeline of the show. He would have to rise up the ranks way too quickly to get to crime boss status in 13 episodes - that might mess with our suspension of disbelief. It makes more sense that he got his start a long time ago, maybe before Matt was even born.

 

He did use to be a good person, someone who didn't want to hurt people, and that didn't work out so well for him - he learned early on that "might makes right", the show did lay out that much for us.

[ribboninthesky1]

Maybe that's what happened between killing his dad with a hammer and when we first met him on the show and he's already stinkin' rich. There are a lot of years in there we know next to nothing about.

 

I'm not sure how well it would have worked for Fisk's start in the criminal world to be within the current timeline of the show. He would have to rise up the ranks way too quickly to get to crime boss status in 13 episodes - that might mess with our suspension of disbelief. It makes more sense that he got his start a long time ago, maybe before Matt was even born.

 

He did use to be a good person, someone who didn't want to hurt people, and that didn't work out so well for him - he learned early on that "might makes right", the show did lay out that much for us.

 

He might have been a good kid once upon a time - I don't recall anything from the show to indicate he was a good adult.  I'm not sure he learned that "might makes right" from his childhood.  His abusive father was a loser (which fueled his abuse), and didn't appear successful at anything significant. 

 

As far how long Fisk has been in collusion with criminals, I didn't need to see what I mention play out over the entire season.  I'd rather have heard some dialogue about going illegitimate rather than the childhood flashbacks.  But even if the arc would have required the entire season, I doubt it would have been any less believable, for me at least, than the man whose name couldn't even be uttered at the beginning of the season to one in a prison cell by the end of it.  But mostly, my impression was that the show wanted to characterize Fisk as a counterpoint to Matt via dueling ideologies.  I didn't see that, thus my spiel on what I would have preferred within that context.      

[Bec]

His father was a loser, yes, but he still had more power than little Fisk and his mother. In Fisk's experience, anyone who had any power at all used it against other people who had less power. I think that shaped his worldview a lot, and it's what drives him to make himself more and more powerful by sacrificing people he consider beneath him.

 

I'm with you on wanting to see the story of how he came to be a crime boss. I didn't really care that much about his childhood either (I was like "enough already, his father was abusive, I get the picture"). But I guess the show was going for symmetry since we saw quite a bit of Matt's childhood.

 

Maybe they can still go back and do the tale of Fisk entering the criminal world and how he climbed the ranks. Then they would have a reason to bring Wesley back for the flashback scenes! Win all around!

[WendyCR72]

Maybe they can still go back and do the tale of Fisk entering the criminal world and how he climbed the ranks. Then they would have a reason to bring Wesley back for the flashback scenes! Win all around!

 

Yes to all of this. Because I loved that monster bastard Fisk and want to see more and want a way to revive Wesley. (Damn you, Karen! Yes, I know he threatened her.) Or, if we need the actor playing Wesley to stay...twin brother who also knows Fisk and wants to team up and avenge his brother's death! Bam! (Yes, it's clichéd! Yes, it's more in line for a soap. But this show is based on comic books...)

[Grace284]

I might have been more persuaded by or conflicted by Fisk's perspective on Hell's Kitchen if he started out trying to be legitimate, became frustrated by little to no progress, and changed his strategy.  But as laid out on the show, he immediately aligned with the criminal underworld.  I thought it was funny how he seemed to regard the Russians as beneath him when he was as undisciplined and ruthless as they were. He had more money to throw around, but ultimately, birds of a feather and all that. The Russian brothers didn't pretend they were trying to make Hell's Kitchen a better place.  

 

Indeed. Every time he pulled out the "I want to make my city a better place" line I just thought "that's nice, but you're a sex trafficking murderer, so...". I liked d'Onofrio's performance and the idea that Fisk thought he was righteous, but I never could sympathise with him. 

[ribboninthesky1]

Maybe they can still go back and do the tale of Fisk entering the criminal world and how he climbed the ranks. Then they would have a reason to bring Wesley back for the flashback scenes! Win all around!

 

 

Yes to all of this. Because I loved that monster bastard Fisk and want to see more and want a way to revive Wesley. (Damn you, Karen! Yes, I know he threatened her.) Or, if we need the actor playing Wesley to stay...twin brother who also knows Fisk and wants to team up and avenge his brother's death! Bam! (Yes, it's clichéd! Yes, it's more in line for a soap. But this show is based on comic books...)

 

Ha! I found Wesley intriguing as well, and would be perfectly fine with bringing him back.  

[WendyCR72]

"How Vincent D'Onofrio Became The Best New Villain On TV": Rolling Stone article.

[JTMacc99]

I still think of Vincent D'Onofrio as the guy from that really good episode of Homicide, so, I thought he wore a really convincing fat suit for this role. But no. He just got older. Like me.

Is he supposed to be superhuman ? Or just a really strong guy with the power of rage and good armor? And mad omelette making skills.

 

 

You look at VDO in his earlier roles in Full Metal Jacket and Adventures in Babysitting -- he was 1/2 the size that the Kingpin appears to be.

I think he looks a lot a grown up Private Pyle physically. But being such a terrific actor, he puts the light on behind the eyes in this role that was pretty dim in that one.

 

The role I will always first associate Vincent D'Onofrio with is Edgar from Men in Black.

[WendyCR72]

I think he looks a lot a grown up Private Pyle physically. But being such a terrific actor, he puts the light on behind the eyes in this role that was pretty dim in that one.

 

The role I will always first associate Vincent D'Onofrio with is Edgar from Men in Black.

 

He was in a (admittedly chick flick) movie - Julia Roberts' first, I believe - Mystic Pizza as a fisherman engaged to one of the other two women in the movie. He seemed a salt-of-the-earth type there, and was pretty good, too. (Although the powder blue tux at the beginning? Yikes!) Coincidentally, he was also in another Julia Roberts movie, Dying Young. But I know him best from L&O: CI.

 

But I really enjoyed VDO's take on Fisk, and his description of him as a baby and monster was just spot on, IMO.

 

ETA: But the scene of him as "Thor" in Adventures In Babysitting will never get old, either.

[Nanrad]

I actually found myself agreeing with Fisk's ideology pretty much the entire season. Was waiting for Matt or anyone to come up with a good counterargument but nothing they gave me was convincing...especially during all that tenement housing stuff. I'm sorry, but Elena's "This is my home" argument when it's a shithole, physically dangerous, necessitating cooking all your meals at a neighbor's, dirty running water, dangerous ne'er-do-wells, being not dissimilar to a number of other shitholes out there to choose from if one so wishes, and being paid what seemed like a relatively substantial amount (and then double that) to counter rent control elsewhere...I just can't sympathize.

Here's a counterargument: rather than strong-arming people out of their homes if you cannot pay them off, actually invest in the neighborhood and programs that focus on public safety. Fisk was allowing drugs in the neighborhood via his business partners. 

 

His methods displaces many people and assumes that they have somewhere else to go. Elena did NOT. She had no family and Hell's Kitchen was the only home she'd ever had. What gave Fisk the right to decide who gets to live in that neighborhood? He was only improving the lives of the wealthy NOT the poor or unfortunate. We have no idea how long that substantial amount will last AND if it'll be spent appropriately because, more times than not, when someone has access to a surplus amount of funds, they splurge. Yes, that isn't his responsibility, but he just wants them to go away--he's not try to fix shit. He's not trying to fix crime, poverty, or whatever else. He's simply buying them off to go to other poor neighborhoods and live the same way just so he can upgrade ONE neighborhood. 

 

So, there is A LOT messed up with Fisk's ideology: the poor don't deserve to be invested in--let's just force them out and make another community for the rich to live in.

 

I think I'd enjoy D'Onofrio's performance more if it were more subtle. The way he speaks annoys the crap out of me. I understand that it's supposed to reveal the insecurity that lies beneath, but I think it would be more effective if it only surfaced at certain times (ex: his first date with Vanessa). A generally stoic Wilson Fisk who only periodically reveals the cracks in his psyche would be phenomenal.

His voice made his role less enjoyable for me. I always got annoyed and distracted when he spoke. It felt unnatural and brought a lot of negative attention to itself for me.

[mledawn]

Also, was not her apartment largely a shithole because of Fisks efforts to squeeze her out? You could see inside her apartment that she had made an effort with her home, and it was Fisk and his thugs who forced her to go next door to cook because they cut the power, and her water was dirty because they didn't send a plumber...

It's easy to say, "take the money", but it was her home.

[WendyCR72]

Also, was not her apartment largely a shithole because of Fisks efforts to squeeze her out? You could see inside her apartment that she had made an effort with her home, and it was Fisk and his thugs who forced her to go next door to cook because they cut the power, and her water was dirty because they didn't send a plumber...

It's easy to say, "take the money", but it was her home.

 

I agree; it was her home. But in the broadest terms, Fisk was a villain, and on the streets, it was known he was ruthless. With that rep, and with Karen knowing the woman AND knowing what Fisk was about, I think she did Mrs. Cardenas a great disservice in trying to get her to fight, knowing that.

 

Sometimes it is just best to give in when it's a shithole building versus a life.

 

As an aside, I loved VDO's take on Fisk. Yes, the voice pattern was affected, but VDO does bring the quirk to some of his roles, I guess. But to me, he wasn't cookie cutter and I respect the approach.

[slf]

I really hate that they hired Vincent D'Onofrio because he keeps using the same mannerisms (and to a degree the same line delivery) that he used to play the alien bug guy in Men In Black and it's just so so bad. I just rewatched 2x09, when he tries to have Frank killed in the prison, and I have no idea how Bernthal kept a straight face during their scenes.

Edited January 30, 2019 by slf

[car54]

Every time I see our temporary acting Attorney General Whittaker, I think of Kingpin....only sweaty-er.