Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[swanpride]

Also, even in the first movie, his motivation was never Peggy. It was ALWAYS Bucky. Every important decision Steve has made - rescuing the imprisoned soldiers, stopping fighting on the helicarrier, fighting Tony - was at the end of the day because of Bucky. And we never got any conclusion to that story. Not just in terms of Steve either. There was never a moment in which Bucky and Tony meet again to give either of them some sort of conclusion.

It is just disappointing that two of the best movies of the whole MCU never really got a satisfying solution.

[clack]

We got that conclusion when Steve said he was going back to 1950 to return the stones, and Bucky said goodbye -- knowing Steve was going back for good. They both had a little moment of mutual understanding  there.

And really the understated emotion fits the men of their generation. Better a slight nod of the head, than falling blubbering into each other's arms.

[supposebly]

I have a question to those who are so pissed of at Steve Rogers' conclusion and the implication if it's not a new timeline. Do we know he just sat around and hid from the world? I mean, he could have done all kinds of things disguised behind some superhero mask or another. He would have had to leave his original time line/story alone so as not to endanger the victory over Thanos but other than that? Just because he went back to Peggy doesn't mean he wasn't being a supersoldier in other ways. He did have the shield with him.

What am I missing?

[stealinghome]

Well, assuming that he did create a new timeline as per the stated movie rules, I certainly HOPE that he supersoldiered the shit out of the new timeline and prevented/fixed all the wrongs he could! (Prevented HYDRA from growing inside SHIELD, saved Bucky and by extension Howard and Maria, saved a young Nat from the Red Room, prepped Earth for the various alien invasions, etc etc.) If he created an alternate timeline just to do jack shit and let all that happen as it did in the original timeline, that would be the absolute worst!

To answer what I think is the question behind the question, I can believe Steve fixed stuff in the alternate timeline to create a better world and still think the end the movie wrote for the character is hugely narratively unsatisfying and inconsistent given the character’s arc up until Endgame.

[scriggle]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

I have a question to those who are so pissed of at Steve Rogers' conclusion and the implication if it's not a new timeline. Do we know he just sat around and hid from the world? I mean, he could have done all kinds of things disguised behind some superhero mask or another. He would have had to leave his original time line/story alone so as not to endanger the victory over Thanos but other than that? Just because he went back to Peggy doesn't mean he wasn't being a supersoldier in other ways. He did have the shield with him.

What am I missing?

It has nothing to do with whether or not he kept up the good fight in some alternate timeline. As I said previously, my issue with the alternate timeline is that alt!Peggy is not his Peggy. His Peggy died in 2016 after a long and happy life. There's an alt!Steve there trapped in the ice. So does prime!Steve lie to alt!Peggy so he can take over alt!Steve's life and alt!Peggy doesn't notice the difference? Because let's be real, prime!steve of 2023 is not the same as he was in 1945. Does prime!Steve tell her who he really is and alt!Peggy decides she wants him and not her Steve? Then what happens to alt!Steve? The questions go on and on.

I just can't make it work in any way that jibes with the Steve that was presented to me in the films prior to endgame.

Or what @stealinghome said more eloquently. 😀

Edited August 1, 2019 by scriggle

[swanpride]

I rather have him changing the timeline than sitting on his hands BUT even in this scenario he would basically take over other Steve's live. Now, let's assume that this cap doesn't know where he was found. In this case at least leaving himself in the ice is defensible. Though this means that in this timeline, Alternate Steve woke up to a world in which another version of him has lived the live he wanted.

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

I have a question to those who are so pissed of at Steve Rogers' conclusion and the implication if it's not a new timeline. Do we know he just sat around and hid from the world? I mean, he could have done all kinds of things disguised behind some superhero mask or another. He would have had to leave his original time line/story alone so as not to endanger the victory over Thanos but other than that? Just because he went back to Peggy doesn't mean he wasn't being a supersoldier in other ways. He did have the shield with him.

What am I missing?

Or did you mean 'not a new timeline' as in the time loop scenario, where he stays in the same timeline?

If that's the case, and he was still going to do supersoldier stuff, why go back and stay in the past at all when there was plenty of work to be done rebuilding after Thanos? The sudden 'enduring fixation' on Peggy was invented specifically for Endgame & it ignores significant character evolution from the prior movies.  But even putting that aside, if he did try to still do any superhero stuff after 1948, when he apparently went back for his dance, that would never have stayed unknown, and would have created speculation that there were additional rogue supersoldiers around and someone would have wanted them for their own purposes and would have hunted him down. Or if he had used the shield, that would have created speculation that Steve Rogers was still alive, which also would have likely created a manhunt for him. 

Even with Steve just being around Peggy, Howard would have had to know and probably others.  Logistically that creates a whole host of other problems.  Plus, he would have had to have been able to ignore that Bucky was alive and being tortured, that Howard was going to be killed, that Hydra was growing like a malignant tumor, and all the other atrocities that occurred during that time that Steve would have known about, but would have been powerless to stop.  How could that not eat at him knowing all that was happening while he and Peggy were sitting down to Sunday dinner? And anything he did do, how could he ever really know he wasn't maybe creating some sort of Butterfly Effect, where changing even a small thing could have created a time branch and messed up the future for the people he'd abandoned (which is why time loops in fiction are generally of very short duration)?  So, yeah... a whole host of other issues crop up for me with that scenario, but mileage obviously varies widely.  

[Jeebus Cripes]

17 hours ago, swanpride said:

Btw, after thinking about this for a long. looong time...I would have just skipped the "turn over the shield" scene, and instead have just something "going wrong" and then having Cap lost in time, with his fate being unclear. yeah, this would have been kind of a depressing ending for him, but it would also be kind of finding to have the man who got lost in time literally lost in time. And it would have kept all the possibilities open.

They could have had a scene for Steve, Falcon and Bucky in which Steve says that he knows that if something happens to him, good men like them would continue his work, and then, after Cap vanishes, a scene in which Bucky indicates that if anyone deserves to take up Steve's mantle, it should be Falcon.

I was thinking about this the other day as well. An open-ending like that could leave everyone to speculate however they chose. Steggy shippers can assume he went back to her. Stucky shippers can think he's stuck and can't find his way back or that he's in another timeline with him. Anyone who could care less about his love life can imagine whatever scenario they like. Those of us who desperately want Evans to return can hold on to that hope, even if it's unlikely. This would work on a lot of levels. 

3 hours ago, supposebly said:

I have a question to those who are so pissed of at Steve Rogers' conclusion and the implication if it's not a new timeline. Do we know he just sat around and hid from the world? I mean, he could have done all kinds of things disguised behind some superhero mask or another. He would have had to leave his original time line/story alone so as not to endanger the victory over Thanos but other than that? Just because he went back to Peggy doesn't mean he wasn't being a supersoldier in other ways. He did have the shield with him.

What am I missing?

If he goes around doing all this hero stuff in his past, he's bound to create changes big enough to upset the timeline. This is why a closed loop can't work. I watch a lot of science shows and things about the multiverse and such. Max Tegmark, a professor at MIT, explained that any small change one makes could create another universe. I know the writers claim they talked to physicists about things of this nature, but they didn't seem to apply that science in the end.  

[Danny Franks]

Is it possible to move on from this circular, neverending argument? There's not going to be a resolution or a changing of minds. This thread is turning into The Last Jedi thread.

[Wynterwolf]

It would be much easier to move on if the Russos and the other PTB would stop. talking.

Is it any wonder that Steve's whole storyline felt like it was just slapped together at the last minute, with the express goal to hook him up with a woman regardless of whether it made any sense for his character arc or not?  **sigh**

[festivus]

I think the discussion is coming up again because they've released the digital movie. I don't buy digital, I wait for the actual blu-ray so I expect I'll have some more to say when that comes out since it takes me more than one viewing of a movie to get everything.

[scriggle]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

It would be much easier to move on if the Russos and the other PTB would stop. talking.

Is it any wonder that Steve's whole storyline felt like it was just slapped together at the last minute, with the express goal to hook him up with a woman regardless of whether it made any sense for his character arc or not?  **sigh**

Then you also have the Russos out there spouting bullshit like this (from here):

Quote

Steve learned a lot from Peggy Carter. When you go back and look at The First Avenger, that is the essential relationship that, I think, turned him into who he is today, turned him into Captain America. Her sense of integrity, her call to action, are all qualities that have been ingrained in Steve and are his best qualities and they come from example, from Peggy. So I think it was critical that her character embody those essential qualities, because he wouldn't be who he is without them.

Seriously? I'm sorry. Steve did not get those qualities from Peggy. He had them all along, way before he knew Peggy. If anyone instilled those qualities in Steve Rogers, it was his mother. Peggy didi not make Steve into the man that he is. He was that man all along. They're proving once again that they lack fundamental understanding of Steve's character.

It's a measure of how poorly thought out Steve's ending was that they have to re-write movie canon and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it.

[Danny Franks]

Well I guess my question is answered. That's a shame.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Well I guess my question is answered. That's a shame.

You could always elect to ignore the conversation in question. It is a major aspect of the film, so I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to address it here. 

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

Seriously? I'm sorry. Steve did not get those qualities from Peggy. He had them all along, way before he knew Peggy.

LOLOLOL, right??!?!?!? This was literally the reason Erskine chose Steve, there was a whole scene about it where Steve asked him to explain why he chose him.  And Steve's innate inner strength and integrity are what attracted Peggy to him.  I wonder if this was them trying to cover their ass after basically using Peggy as a prop in EG.  

[Danny Franks]

42 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

You could always elect to ignore the conversation in question. It is a major aspect of the film, so I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to address it here. 

I've already got certain people on ignore, and it's a shame to have to do it with more. But having to sift through twenty pages of the same arguments, and the same points being made repeatedly, just to find the odd post that I want to interact with... I guess I'll just stop looking at this thread.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Danny Franks

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

 I wonder if this was them trying to cover their ass after basically using Peggy as a prop in EG.  

MCU owns these properties. It can write whatever they want to about Steve Rogers and give his character whatever ending it wants. Despite the loopholes that I pointed out pages ago when I commented after seeing the movie. I happen to think that Steve's decision to go back to be with Peggy was totally in character. Peggy is Steve's one true love and he grabbed his chance at happiness. It was the perfect happy ending for Steve. 

[Zuleikha]

And with the title release of Dr. Strange 2, and also the premise of the Loki TV series... apparently Steve just totally blew off the mission he had agreed to perform and left the universe in chaos in order to have that 'ending' with Peggy. 

That's an unwarranted leap. Loki escaped as part of the mission gone wrong. Steve returning the stones doesn't affect that.

The time travel didn't create the multiverse. It already existed. All Steve could ever do was limit the amount of branches the Avengers specific actions caused. Unfortunately, the NY mission had at least two things change that weren't directly connected to the Avengers taking the stones (and thus weren't in Steve's power to close). Loki was one as were whatever changes happened from the "Bucky's alive" and "Hail Hydra" whispers.

It's probable some of the other interactions people had created additional changes--like there should be an alternate universe with a very different Guardians of the Galaxy set of events due to Gamora and Nebula's disappearance and of course, an alternate universe where the Snappening never happened.

So Loki's TV show and a mad multiverse both can still happen even with Steve returning everything he was supposed to return.

[swanpride]

Honestly, they should have left out the "cutting the branches" line, because for all we know, every single time jump created a new timeline. The 2012 and 2014 timelines are clearly messed up, and the 1970 one MIGHT have lead to Howard Stark being a better father. And with the 2013 one, well, I can't of don't see Cap inserting the aether back (plus, isn't the aether a stone, now? Unless Doctor Strange turned all the stones back into their original shape…)

[Jeebus Cripes]

12 hours ago, scriggle said:

Then you also have the Russos out there spouting bullshit like this (from here):

Seriously? I'm sorry. Steve did not get those qualities from Peggy. He had them all along, way before he knew Peggy. If anyone instilled those qualities in Steve Rogers, it was his mother. Peggy didi not make Steve into the man that he is. He was that man all along. They're proving once again that they lack fundamental understanding of Steve's character.

It's a measure of how poorly thought out Steve's ending was that they have to re-write movie canon and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it.

Shit like this makes me wonder if the Russos have ever even watched The First Avenger. 

[swanpride]

It makes me wonder if they ever watched their own movies….

[clack]

The same writers who wrote all 3 Captain America movies also wrote Endgame. While writing those initial movies, they didn't know when or how Steve would finally leave the MCU.

I'm sure there arose some character inconsistencies as they went along from movie to movie, because they were adjusting Steve's arc on the fly. There are some things you can't plan far ahead for, such as when an actor wants to leave a role.

This we know as canon : Steve was in love with Peggy. When given a second chance at living his life with the woman he loved, he took it. That is Steve's character as portrayed by those who created it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, clack said:

I'm sure there arose some character inconsistencies as they went along from movie to movie, because they were adjusting Steve's arc on the fly. There are some things you can't plan far ahead for, such as when an actor wants to leave a role.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. Marvel, its writers, directors did have a plan. We saw the culmination of it with this movie. Saying that they adjusted Steve's arc on the fly implies they had no idea how they wanted to write it or complete it. What we ended up with, for me, was an insult and fuck up, that was out of character for the Steve Rogers/Captain America I watched for nearly 10 years. And as for when an actor wants to leave a role? There were contracts. Actors, and especially in this particular franchise because it was so successful, negotiate and renegotiate their contracts. Not to mention all the posts I've read here and in other places how all the actors signed up for x movies. So the writers have NO EXCUSE for this lazy ass writing. Steve wasn't mooning over Peggy in every scene we saw him in over the course of the past 10 years.

I don't care what the directors or writers are saying NOW, scrambling around with 'splanations, excuses, bullshit, in the aftermath of ruining Steve (my favorite character in this universe). I know what I've watched over the past decade, and I saw what happened on my screen.

As for the timey-whimy whackadoodleness, if Steve did mess with the timeline, and didn't go on to be Captain America, wouldn't the memories of Sam, Bruce, and Scott be altered or whatever? It's all so messed up and I have too much work to do today to try and make sense of it all.

That said, I'm getting this movie, just because. And I'm going to ignore the last five minutes and pretend it never happened.

Edited August 2, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That said, I'm getting this movie, just because. And I'm going to ignore the last five minutes and pretend it never happened.

Seconded.

[Wynterwolf]

29 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That said, I'm getting this movie, just because. And I'm going to ignore the last five minutes and pretend it never happened.

All I need is the basic DVD, but me too... I want to be able to gif the hell out of Steve and Mjölnir.  

[scriggle]

@GHScorpiosRule, I wish I could like your post a million times.

[Jeebus Cripes]

16 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As for the timey-whimy whackadoodleness, if Steve did mess with the timeline, and didn't go on to be Captain America, wouldn't the memories of Sam, Bruce, and Scott be altered or whatever? It's all so messed up and I have too much work to do today to try and make sense of it all.

That said, I'm getting this movie, just because. And I'm going to ignore the last five minutes and pretend it never happened.

I think if we're going to entertain the closed loop nonsense for a moment, we have to assume that when CurrentSteve went back to be with Peg, he had to be totally on the DL in terms of his identity. Good luck with that one, Steve. Now, let's pretend he pulls this off; the only Captain America that Sam & everyone else would have memories of would be FrozenSteve who has yet to wake up. Nothing CurrentSteve does in the past can alter the future in a predestination paradox. It was always meant to be this way. Which is bollocks in this case because...

Consider that FrozenSteve goes on to become CurrentSteve and is coexisting with HIMSELF for a large number of years. This is not a parallel universe Steve living beside the Steve we all watched since The First Avenger. They are literally the same fucking person from the same timeline. Steve just sits back and allows all kinds of atrocities to occur in favor of getting some alone time with Peggy.

He can't raise a finger to stop any of it, or he will branch the timeline. And remember, in order for Steve to have always been Peg's husband all along, that means he absolutely did just that. He changed not a single thing. Yeah, that sounds like a happy existence for the Steve Rogers I know. I'm sure that shit won't keep him awake at night at all. Yay for happy endings!

Yes, writers, this doesn't sound batshit crazy at all. This is why I hate and will always hate this type of time travel logic. 

Multiverse FTW!

Edited August 3, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes
for clarity

[clack]

The MCU is fantasy. Time travel isn't real, it's magic.

Trying to parse the logic of Steve going back to 1950 and living a happy life is like parsing the logic of how being bitten by a radioactive spider can give you superpowers, or being exposed to gamma rays can turn you into a green giant when you're angry. It's all as magic as the magic in Game of Thrones.

Sure, if you think about the logistics of it all, it falls apart. Know what else falls apart if you think about the logistics of it all? The entire MCU.

Edited August 3, 2019 by clack

[stealinghome]

Quote

Trying to parse the logic of Steve going back to 1950 and living a happy life is like parsing the logic of how being bitten by a radioactive spider can give you superpowers, or being exposed to gamma rays can turn you into a green giant when you're angry. It's all as magic as the magic in Game of Thrones.

I don't know, I would argue that's not really the case and is a bit of a false equivalence. It's a hoary old chestnut, but it's true: people can accept fantastical premises (aka suspension of disbelief works) as long as the rest of the story is told in a consistent, non-self-contradictory, tight manner. What drives fans nuts is when the story contradicts itself and/or has serious gaping problems that the writers didn't see, because then suspension of disbelief is broken and the entire storytelling world is called into question.

My sense is that Game of Thrones is a great comparison actually (I say as a non-GoT watcher who has been observing the carnage for the past few weeks!). Like, as far as I can tell, no one was mad at the Game of Thrones finale because it involved magic and dragons and they're not real, you know? They were mad because they felt like many characters were served poorly by the show's end and the narrative was inconsistent with what came before (I don't watch the show so I have zero idea whether or not that's true, for the record, though it sounds familiar...). Storytelling/narrative problems are totally different from the suspension of disbelief required to roll with a fantastical premise.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I don't know, I would argue that's not really the case and is a bit of a false equivalence. It's a hoary old chestnut, but it's true: people can accept fantastical premises (aka suspension of disbelief works) as long as the rest of the story is told in a consistent, non-self-contradictory, tight manner. What drives fans nuts is when the story contradicts itself and/or has serious gaping problems that the writers didn't see, because then suspension of disbelief is broken and the entire storytelling world is called into question.

This is the way I am. I don’t need science fiction to be logical but if it sets rules it needs to follow them. Most of my problems with Endgame stem from a lack of internal consistency, within the movie itself and within the larger MCU. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Guest

[swanpride]

Yeah, and there is a narrative consistency and a thematic one. The whole thing with old Steve on the bench breaks both. Some might feel that it is worth it to get this moment of passing the shield but, well, I don't.

[AimingforYoko]

Don't worry, everyone! Steve Rogers has not been ruined, at least not the one we know, because...

There has always been two Captain Americas.

Let us no longer continue to flog this deceased equine.

[Wynterwolf]

43 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Don't worry, everyone! Steve Rogers has not been ruined, at least not the one we know, because...

There has always been two Captain Americas.

Let us no longer continue to flog this deceased equine.

Yeah, they seem really definitive about that:

Quote

“Here’s how we reconcile it. We think there have always been two Caps from 1945 to, say, now, and we just didn’t know that. That’s the loop, right?”

Just because they say that, doesn't mean that's what ended up on screen. No matter how you slice it, what ended up on screen was crap storytelling.  And as far as I know, the Russos still have a different 'interpretation'?  Or have they contradicted themselves on that now too?  They all screwed up one of the most important aspects of this film, and no amount them them trying to talk around it now is going to change that.  So nah... for all the myriad reasons several people have already presented.  

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Don't worry, everyone! Steve Rogers has not been ruined, at least not the one we know, because...

There has always been two Captain Americas.

Let us no longer continue to flog this deceased equine.

So basically they have their fingers in their ears ignoring every legitimate problem with that theory loudly proclaiming it’s a time loop because they say so. After all who cares that it doesn’t match up with their own writing in the previous movies or the fact that it ruins at least three (Steve, Peggy and Sharon) established characters and the plots to several of the movies. 

Since Marvel already announced that the Loki series will follow 2012 Loki after he escapes hopefully they will give a canon explanation.

[Wynterwolf]

17 minutes ago, Dani said:

Since Marvel already announced that the Loki series will follow 2012 Loki after he escapes hopefully they will give a canon explanation.

TBH, I am torn... literally any time anyone opens their mouth now, they make it worse.  I think I might prefer that they just leave it alone. I don't trust them to not make it even worse than they already have.  

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Don't worry, everyone! Steve Rogers has not been ruined, at least not the one we know, because...

There has always been two Captain Americas.

Let us no longer continue to flog this deceased equine.

Oh My God! Just STFU already! I swear every time they or the Russos try to add some kind of tidbit or explanation it just gets worse.
Shut up and let me have my own headcanon and leave it be.
I've read so many other endings for Steve written by random people on the Internet that were better and more in-character. My new favorite is Steve coming back de-serumed. He had to give up the serum (thing he loved) in order to put the Soul Stone back. He comes back small and scrawny again (this takes care of retiring Cap/Evans not returning to the role), and passing the mantle. See? Not so hard. I would have loved that.

[Jeebus Cripes]

38 minutes ago, Dani said:

So basically they have their fingers in their ears ignoring every legitimate problem with that theory loudly proclaiming it’s a time loop because they say so. After all who cares that it doesn’t match up with their own writing in the previous movies or the fact that it ruins at least three (Steve, Peggy and Sharon) established characters and the plots to several of the movies. 

Since Marvel already announced that the Loki series will follow 2012 Loki after he escapes hopefully they will give a canon explanation.

Why is no one on the same fucking page at Marvel regarding this issue? Holy hell! Send out a mass email or something, Feige! OldSteve is the result of a time loop or an alternate universe. He can't be both! Decide which one it is and get everyone the fuck on board because this business where the writers say one thing, and the directors run around contradicting it makes Marvel Studios as a whole look incompetent.

We have a film coming up titled Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Is it really that crazy to assume Steve lived out the rest of his life in a branched timeline? The alternative turns Steve into someone I don't even like, let alone respect anymore. How do the writers not realize the implications of their theory? 

[Spartan Girl]

They could have just let Steve die a valiant heroic death with his character intact in battle right before Tony sacrificed himself too.

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Anduin]

5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

They could have just let Steve die a valiant heroic death with his character intact in battle right before Tony sacrificed himself too.

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That movie already killed two Avengers. They wanted a different end for the third.

[scriggle]

59 minutes ago, Anduin said:

That movie already killed two Avengers. They wanted a different end for the third.

So they assassinated Steve's character instead.😠😢

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Why is no one on the same fucking page at Marvel regarding this issue? Holy hell! Send out a mass email or something, Feige! OldSteve is the result of a time loop or an alternate universe. He can't be both! Decide which one it is and get everyone the fuck on board because this business where the writers say one thing, and the directors run around contradicting it makes Marvel Studios as a whole look incompetent.

Right? Marvel is many things, but amateur hour isn’t usually one of them. Really surprising (though I wonder if an increasing inevitability of their kinda chop shop approach to making movies). At this point it doesn’t even actually matter what the explanation is—just pick one and create a party line, so you stop looking like amateur hour!

[scriggle]

The thing that gets me is they're not really saying "this is what we wrote." They're out there saying "this is a possible explanation for what was filmed." Which is why they can't get there stories straight. 

In the article linked above, they say the fan theory that old!Steve was at Peggy's funeral is wrong. In another article I read they're confirming that theory. So which is it? You'd think they know definitively since they wrote the screenplay.

[swanpride]

I am happy that they went for a version in which Steve is still alive, but damnit, they should have thought this through better. If they wanted a sliding timeline which keeps righting itself if you make changes in the past, they could have done it. But they kept talking about the multiverse. So the multiverse is it. With ALL implications.

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

So they assassinated Steve's character instead.😠😢

Word. That kind of death is clearly harder to get over, as we are still heatedly discussing it. 

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

The thing that gets me is they're not really saying "this is what we wrote." They're out there saying "this is a possible explanation for what was filmed." Which is why they can't get there stories straight. 

In the article linked above, they say the fan theory that old!Steve was at Peggy's funeral is wrong. In another article I read they're confirming that theory. So which is it? You'd think they know definitively since they wrote the screenplay.

I've read quite a few articles with them at this point, and either they are being misquoted in some of them or they are outright lying. This is disappointing because I have no respect for liars. Own your shit. If you created an ending that doesn't quite make sense, admit that. Mistakes happen. I would argue that the producers and directors should've caught the blunder of OldSteve on the bench and made a change before filming. There's plenty of blame to go around here. It's as though they were asleep on the job, which screams rushed ending to me. They knew Evans was leaving. They had plenty of time to make this ending not be a clusterfuck. 

Don't retroactively make things up to fit a narrative that was never originally intended. If they wanted Steve to end up with Peggy, that's fine. That's their prerogative as writers, but don't bullshit us all and say this was the plan all along. It was the most sloppily executed plan ever if that was the case, poorly thought out on every level.

I would love to know what the original ending was. I'd bet money they were going to kill him. They already said Nat wasn't supposed to die. Out of the core team, Hawkeye dying isn't going to create too many waves (sorry Clint fans, no disrespect intended). It wouldn't shock me at all if the original script had Clint, Tony, and Steve all dead, and that somewhere along the way they had to scramble to rewrite Steve's ending. It's the only thing that readily explains how botched it is. 

[Perfect Xero]

I just wish they'd stop acting like the only thing that creates a new timeline is taking an infinity stone as justification for Steve being able to go back. The film very explicitly addresses that they can't go back and kill Thanos as a baby.

[Jeebus Cripes]

25 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I just wish they'd stop acting like the only thing that creates a new timeline is taking an infinity stone as justification for Steve being able to go back. The film very explicitly addresses that they can't go back and kill Thanos as a baby.

This is irritating me like you wouldn't believe. Strange looks at over 14 million different outcomes in Infinity War. That suggests he's seeing the futures of 14 million different timelines playing out. They all exist. He just steered them towards the one with the favorable outcome. 

[Anduin]

4 hours ago, scriggle said:

So they assassinated Steve's character instead.😠😢

No, they gave him a much deserved happy ending.

[swanpride]

Well, I assumed that those timelines DIDN'T happen and where just possibilities. It would be a little bit much if there is another timeline for every decision someone might have made differently.

[clack]

They gave the 3 departing characters endings that completed their arcs.

Tony : an egotist who learns to sacrifice himself for others

Natasha: a killer who redeems the red in her ledger by giving back life to trillions

Steve: the man from the past who, having completed his mission in the present, gets to return home

I suppose they could have killed Steve instead -- soldier who believes in sacrificing himself for others sacrifices himself. Maybe that would be more "in character". I prefer the ending we did get.

As to the fan-fic alternatives to his dying or returning to the past : Steve is de-serumed and returns to the shrimp he was, Steve just mysteriously disappears,etc. -- they are all terrible ideas.

[Crs97]

19 minutes ago, clack said:

Tony : an egotist who learns to sacrifice himself for others

Tony had been sacrificing himself since the first Iron Man movie.  I hate that he finally had to die for people to decide he was selfless.  I guess hand-delivering a nuke to another world to save New York doesn’t get you the street cred you’d think it would.