Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Ugh, someone brought up the writers dumb-assed comment about how they always intended Steve to be Peg's husband all along in my presence, and now I'm in rage-mode all over again. So, it was their intention all along to have Steve Rogers idly sit by and do nothing while Bucky was being tortured, brainwashed, and turned into a killer? Seriously? Steve's that guy now? Fuck that noise! That would be character assassination on an epic scale (Game of Thrones level). The studio needs to put them in check for this retconned fuckery. They already admitted they didn't even know time travel was part of Endgame going in:

How could Steve be the husband all along without time travel in the first place? How was this always your intention??? They're making an ass out of themselves trying to be clever with this ending, and they're ruining Steve Rogers in the process. Just admit you were wrong and don't understand that you created an alternate timeline. For fucks sake!

Wow that theoryis terrible. Not just for Bucky as you mentioned but also what about Peggy. What Steve just sits at home all day watching daytime TV while his wife goes to work at the agency she founded and loves. And he never once mentions that oh by the way honey SHIELD has totally been compromised and taken over by Hydra. And he lives like that for 40+ years. What the hell.

[scriggle]

And these are the same people who wrote all three Cap films. Now suddenly they throw away all prior characterization that they wrote to shoehorn in that terrible ending. It like all their understanding of Steve's character got dusted when Thanos snapped his fingers at the end of IW.

And though I am a Stucky shipper, my hatred of Steve's ending has nothing to do with Bucky. For me, Steve choosing to live in the past is just so out of character. It goes against everything we learned about Steve in the previous films, especially his solo films.

Edited May 17, 2019 by scriggle
damn you autocorrect. thanks is not the same as thanos.

[Wynterwolf]

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

How could Steve be the husband all along without time travel in the first place? How was this always your intention???

Apparently they're also forgetting that, as late as during the process of writing IW, they were still considering Sharon a viable option when they talked about how they abandoned the idea of including that domestic scene of them in an apartment somewhere 'trying to make it work'. 

Also, re them writing the Cap films, yeah I think EG (and to a lesser extent IW) is a great example of what happens when you have to write a plot-driven story with predetermined endings rather than the character-driving stories they did for the Cap films.  I think that's also partly why they kept the 5 year time jump, because it gives them a lot of wiggle room to say that 'weeeelll, a lot happened in those 5 years' to cover for the unearned character leaps, not only for Steve's character, but for everyone else too.  

Edited May 17, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Spartan Girl]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:22 PM, Jeebus Cripes said:

Well, at least Game of Thrones came along and replaced the bitter taste in my mouth with something even worse. 

Yup.  I still hate Steve's ending, but at least it's just one part that I can skip when I get the movie on DVD and just fanwank it with my own headcanon.  Game of Thrones, on the other hand...ugh.

[VCRTracking]

I will give props to who came up with this song choice:

This song playing from the transition from Professor Hulk giving Scott the tacos and him on the back of the truck as they go to New Asgard was great.

Edited May 17, 2019 by VCRTracking

[festivus]

You can NEVER go wrong with The Kinks. 😁

[Dee]

George R.R. Martin Reviews ‘Avengers: Endgame’: It’s Not Just ‘A Big Dumb Action Movie’

Quote

“‘Endgame’ is amazing,” Martin wrote. “Kudos to the writers and director. I cannot believe they got all those characters into one film and still managed to do them all justice. The final battle was epic, exciting, thrilling, full of twists and turns and strangely beautiful. But the character scenes earlier in the film really made it for me. The opening with Hawkeye, the Ant-Man scenes, Tony Stark’s moments communing with his helm…so many more.”

Martin continued, “There’s plenty of action here, but this is not just A Big Dumb Action movie, of which there are far too many these days. Stan Lee would have been proud. Could he ever have dreamed that all those characters he and Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko and the rest of the Marvel team created in the early 60s would one day come to dominate global culture? There’s an amazing story for you.”

[VCRTracking]

[Jeebus Cripes]

16 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Apparently they're also forgetting that, as late as during the process of writing IW, they were still considering Sharon a viable option when they talked about how they abandoned the idea of including that domestic scene of them in an apartment somewhere 'trying to make it work'. 

I totally forgot about that! You know, if they wanna stick with that lie about Cap being Peggy's husband all along, then I'm gonna call them out on being creeps for knowingly having Steve get involved with his niece. The implications of them living together in IW makes it pervy on another level. Yes, I know they aren't blood related, but it's still not cool. There is no way in hell that I buy into their BS. It's obvious they wanted Steve and Sharon to be a thing, and for whatever reason --be it time constraints, lack of chemistry, whatever-- it didn't happen. Then they get word of this time travel plot line, retcon Peg's entire life post WW2, and expect us to believe this shit was gospel all along. 

18 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wow that theoryis terrible. Not just for Bucky as you mentioned but also what about Peggy. What Steve just sits at home all day watching daytime TV while his wife goes to work at the agency she founded and loves. And he never once mentions that oh by the way honey SHIELD has totally been compromised and taken over by Hydra. And he lives like that for 40+ years. What the hell.

I can't find the direct quote, but they said Steve was probably a stay at home dad while Peggy ran SHIELD. I just... have no words. It's as though neither of them actually sat down and discussed the ludicrous ramifications of Steve staying in the current timeline with Peggy.

17 hours ago, scriggle said:

And though I am a Stucky shipper, my hatred of Steve's ending has nothing to do with Bucky. For me, Steve choosing to live in the past is just so out of character. It goes against everything we learned about Steve in the previous films, especially his solo films.

Seems pretty obvious that someone high up on the totem poll had a problem with the intensity of the Steve/Bucky friendship. I refuse to believe the writers are this dense all around. I don't buy that the same people who wrote The Winter Soldier and Civil War would just blatantly ignore their relationship for the next two films without some outside interference demanding it. It's frustrating as all hell.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Seems pretty obvious that someone high up on the totem poll had a problem with the intensity of the Steve/Bucky friendship. I refuse to believe the writers are this dense all around. I don't buy that the same people who wrote The Winter Soldier and Civil War would just blatantly ignore their relationship for the next two films without some outside interference demanding it. It's frustrating as all hell.

If you ask me, I think the problem they encountered was that they never developed Bucky as anything other than a macguffin for Steve to be angsty about, and then as a plot device to sow discord between Steve and Tony. He never got to be his own person, to show a personality that people would care about or to have relationships with other characters. The most he got were a couple of cryptic remarks from Natasha and some brief bickering with Sam. So even most people who really like him in the movies seem to see him as an extension of Steve.

And then the reason he only has about five lines in Infinity War and Endgame are because there's no time to suddenly develop a personality for him, and relationships with any characters who aren't Steve.

I don't think anyone at Disney had a problem with Steve's friendship with Bucky, because I doubt they care if people 'ship any pairings, as long as it grows the brand's popularity. Doesn't mean they have to put one iota of time into respecting those 'ships though, and my view is that everyone involved in making these movies intended Steve/Bucky to be a brotherly relationship. Which should have just as much validity and love involved as any other kind of relationship.

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Might be an unpopular opinion here, it took me some time to reflect on I but, I don't like the Girl Power Team up in Endgame. It felt a little cheap like just trying to repeat what they did in IW but, on a larger scale. I much prefer the team up in IW which actually felt organic

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If you ask me, I think the problem they encountered was that they never developed Bucky as anything other than a macguffin for Steve to be angsty about, and then as a plot device to sow discord between Steve and Tony. He never got to be his own person, to show a personality that people would care about or to have relationships with other characters.

So he got the usual “girlfriend” edit in most movies?

[Wynterwolf]

5 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Seems pretty obvious that someone high up on the totem poll had a problem with the intensity of the Steve/Bucky friendship. I refuse to believe the writers are this dense all around.

Yeah, I don't believe they are either.  What they did was deliberate.  Especially M&M trying to sell that Bucky is 'fine', that's why Steve could feel good about leaving his friend, while the Russo's keep harping on how damaged he is. 

Which seems like what they are ultimately trying to do now is reset Bucky back to where he was in CW (ignoring that any time or character growth, however limited it was, has happened at all, or that he was deemed 'fine' in EG so Steve could happily leave him), so they can now explore that element of Bucky's character without Steve in the picture, since they couldn't figure out how to do that without some fans viewing their interaction as romantic.  

34 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Might be an unpopular opinion here, it took me some time to reflect on I but, I don't like the Girl Power Team up in Endgame. It felt a little cheap like just trying to repeat what they did in IW but, on a larger scale. I much prefer the team up in IW which actually felt organic

That's... yeah. That's how I felt about so many of the 'feel good' moments:

Girl Power iconic image! (so lets ignore that no woman played any major role and even Natasha was reduced to only being relevant because a man loved her enough for her to qualify as his sacrifice to get a stone)

Aw, Steve gets to grow old with Peggy! (so lets just ignore every sociopolitical and character-based implications of that choice, not to mention in-universe logistical issues)

Thor is still worthy! (so lets ignore how his 'friends' denigrated and ridiculed him the entire movie for a laugh, and even in the otherwise beautiful scene with his mother, even she fat shamed him and told him to eat a salad... for a laugh)

Sam is the new Captain America! (so lets ignore that Clint was a racist serial killer with no consequences for, or even acknowledgment of the implications of, his actions)

Aw, Tony is bonding with his father over having a kid (so lets ignore that his father was either a Hydra dupe or Hydra collaborator and was an abusive father that contributed tremendously to his son's mental health issues, which in the end also contributed to him returning to his roots not only as a purveyor of a WMD, but also as a wielder of a WMD as his final 'heroic' act).

(sits back down in corner with a checklist of 'unpopular opinions')

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Might be an unpopular opinion here, it took me some time to reflect on I but, I don't like the Girl Power Team up in Endgame. It felt a little cheap like just trying to repeat what they did in IW but, on a larger scale. I much prefer the team up in IW which actually felt organic

I appreicate what they were trying to do but it would have worked better if they were providing  back up to anyone else. I mean did they not just see Carol taking down Thanos's entire spaceship by herself? Will the one alien that Mantis makes fall asleep really be that much support to her?

58 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Girl Power iconic image! (so lets ignore that no woman played any major role and even Natasha was reduced to only being relevant because a man loved her enough for her to qualify as his sacrifice to get a stone)

Not sure I agree with that Nebula played a major role throughout the movie. A bigger role than Rocket  or Rhodey easily on par with Ant-man or Hulk. Plus Karen Gillan basically got to play 2 charcters so that is kind of cool.

58 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Aw, Tony is bonding with his father over having a kid (so lets ignore that his father was either a Hydra dupe or Hydra collaborator and was an abusive father that contributed tremendously to his son's mental health issues, which in the end also contributed to him returning to his roots not only as a purveyor of a WMD, but also as a wielder of a WMD as his final 'heroic' act).

Also in what movie was there ever en any indication that Howard Stark was abusive? Shitty yes, distant sure but I am not sure we have seen any indication of physical or even emotional abuse. Also keep in mind we  have only ever seen Tony's side of the story 25+ years after his father's death.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Kel Varnsen

[stealinghome]

34 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I appreicate what they were trying to do but it would have worked better if they were providing  back up to anyone else. I mean did they not just see Carol taking down Thanos's entire spaceship by herself? Will the one alien that Mantis makes fall asleep really be that much support to her?

That last line made me LOL. Carol’s torso is probably more dangerous to Thanos’ army than the rest of the women combined!

I agree that the team-up felt inorganic, and frankly like Marvel was trying to score cheap points. When you haven’t given a shit about female superheroes to date, you don’t get to have a “girl power” moment that acts as if these female superheroes are somehow so integral to your universe or have some sort of sisterhood feeling going on to justify the moment. It’s just too self-congratulatory about what is in reality an awful track record on gender. The Infinity War moment felt earned because Natasha and Scarlet Witch are the female Avengers and have been teammates for several movies, and Okoye was a scene-stealer in Black Panther. This one, not so much.

[Wynterwolf]

43 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Nebula played a major role throughout the movie.

Yes, she was great. She essentially shared the 'exposition fairy' position with Professor Hulk.

44 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Shitty yes, distant sure but I am not sure we have seen any indication of physical or even emotional abuse.

Shitty and distant is emotional abuse.  And emotional abuse can sometimes have a much deeper/more damaging impact on someone than physical abuse.  

Everyone is going to view this movie through their own personal lens, that's what we as fans do.  Everyone is going to focus on different things, things that speak to them.  For me, this movie is 90% super delicious, absolutely gorgeous frosting, but the tiny cake underneath is basically whiny white boy fanservice.  I'm honestly surprised no one called Thor "soy boy" for having feeeelings and for showing in the past that he genuinely supports and respects women.

[Dee]

[Crs97]

I thought Pepper did okay in the series.  She started out as Tony's assistant, but it was pretty clear he would be lost without her.  I thought her becoming CEO in IM2 was out of the blue, but she handled it and was shown later to be quite good at her job.  I wondered how they ended up just retreating those 5 years to the beautiful spot on the lake, but she was shown to be his equal most of the time.  Other women in the series were not so lucky, but the Black Panther movie did a good job of righting that ship.  We'll see if it continues.

When did we see Stark as a Hydra collaborator?!?  His wife and he were stunned that their friend Bucky meant them harm.  If we want to call him a dupe, okay I guess but then everyone else in the world, including Nick Fury and Steve himself, get the same label, don't they?

[Wynterwolf]

26 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

If we want to call him a dupe, okay I guess but then everyone else in the world, including Nick Fury and Steve himself, get the same label, don't they?

They didn't work closely with Armin Zola.  Howard also straight up became an arms dealer.  There is definitely a lot of open water there, between Howard in TFA and later, and you can fill that in however you choose.  

eta - I also wonder how much of a coincidence it is that Howard came up with his own (what appeared to be blue glowy tesseract powered) Super Soldier serum, after he worked with Zola.  

Edited May 18, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

They didn't work closely with Armin Zola. 

So did Peggy.

5 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Howard also straight up became an arms dealer.

He was always an arms dealer.

[anna0852]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

He was always an arms dealer.

He was chief technology supplier to the US Army when we met him in TFA. If  I recall correctly he was supplying them somewhat covertly. But was considered quite important to the cause. in fact Colonel Philip made a point of telling Peggy that she was going to take the blame for Caps supposedly messed up rescue mission because Howard was too important to go after.

[VCRTracking]

Quote

“Because they filmed everything back-to-back with Infinity War, it was shot quite a long time ago, and at that point they didn’t really know what they would be wearing,” outlines visual effects supervisor Stuart Penn from Framestore, a studio charged with realizing many of the CG time suit shots. “So when they shot them they just shot the actors in whatever costumes they were going to be wearing in the locations they were going to. Ant-Man had his Ant-Man costume, Thor had his bathrobe, Cap had his normal costume.”

“They just had some tracking markers on those costumes, but there wasn’t much in the way of witness cameras or anything,” adds Penn, noting that in some cases the actors wore a tracking suit itself. “It was pretty much, they just shot it and then decided later on, much later on, what they were going to be wearing. It wasn’t until quite a way into post that the actual design was formalized.”

[Jeebus Cripes]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That's insane! I saw some people in a YouTube video the other day wearing hoodies that were based off these suits, and I immediately coveted them. 

[benteen]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:46 AM, Crs97 said:

So he got the usual “girlfriend” edit in most movies?

The usual girlfriend?  You mean, the woman he's been in love with since the first movie and the one that he had never forgotten? 

[Crs97]

41 minutes ago, benteen said:

On 5/18/2019 at 7:46 AM, Crs97 said:

So he got the usual “girlfriend” edit in most movies?

The usual girlfriend?  You mean, the woman he's been in love with since the first movie and the one that he had never forgotten? 

No, I mean that in action movies most of the time the leading woman's role is the girlfriend, who is basically arm candy and whose sole existence is to be a plot device for the lead character.  If you read the post I quoted, the complaint is that Bucky had no backstory, no real, defined personality, barely interacted with other characters, and his sole purpose seemed to be to sow discord between Cap and Tony and give Cap angst.  That sounds familiar.

[benteen]

My bad.  I see what you're point was.  I would agree that after The Winter Soldier, Bucky has never been developed as anything more than a plot point to drive a wedge between Steve and Tony.

Pepper did well in the Iron Man series.  She brought something to the table as far as being a love interest went.  After watching the first three Spider-Man movies, it was nice to see a superhero trilogy where the final battle didn't come down to the hero rescuing his girlfriend.  Even when Pepper had to be rescued, she still ended up saving herself in the end.  In Endgame, she's able to become a superhero in her own right.

[Danny Franks]

6 hours ago, Crs97 said:

No, I mean that in action movies most of the time the leading woman's role is the girlfriend, who is basically arm candy and whose sole existence is to be a plot device for the lead character.  If you read the post I quoted, the complaint is that Bucky had no backstory, no real, defined personality, barely interacted with other characters, and his sole purpose seemed to be to sow discord between Cap and Tony and give Cap angst.  That sounds familiar.

To be honest, most modern action movies have girlfriend characters with more development than Bucky had in the last two Avengers movies. Even in the Captain America movies, he barely did anything but give ambiguous responses to Steve's questions.

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Pepper did well in the Iron Man series.  She brought something to the table as far as being a love interest went.  After watching the first three Spider-Man movies, it was nice to see a superhero trilogy where the final battle didn't come down to the hero rescuing his girlfriend.  Even when Pepper had to be rescued, she still ended up saving herself in the end.  In Endgame, she's able to become a superhero in her own right.

While I found it annoying that Pepper had broken up with Tony just before Civil War, presumably to give Tony more angst-fuel, I agree that she brought a lot to the table. And in the first two Iron Man movies, she is an active, independent part of the storyline, taking actions on her own initiative.

I wasn't a fan of Iron Man 3, and have probably only watched it two or three times. I remember thinking it was quite cool that she got the Extremis powers, but don't remember how she lost them.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

. I remember thinking it was quite cool that she got the Extremis powers, but don't remember how she lost them.

The Extremis problem was the thing he said he almost fixed one morning while drunk.  At the end of Iron Man 3 in the voice over he says it took some tinkering but he figured it out and fixed her.

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I found it annoying that Pepper had broken up with Tony just before Civil War, presumably to give Tony more angst-fuel

I’ve never been totally sure of the timeline here. They weren’t together in AoU either, were they?  So they break up after IM3 (presumably when Tony starts building suits again), and then they get back together and break up again between AoU and CW?  And then after CW, they’re back together by Homecoming.  

[stealinghome]

I think Tony and Pepper are together in AoU.

[Starfish35]

Oh sorry.  For some reason I always had the impression that Tony and Pepper weren’t together in AoU, but I guess not.

[Dee]

The only mention of Pepper in AoU is when Maria (Hill) asks Tony and Thor how come Pepper and Jane aren't also attending the party.

Tony gives an ambiguous response about Pepper 'having a company to run,'

So, with Pepper's absence, Tony's low-key response to Maria's question and AoU, narratively, being sandwiched between IM3 and Civil War, it's not a stretch to read Tony & Pepper as being broken up IMO.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

The only mention of Pepper in AoU is when Maria (Hill) asks Tony and Thor how come Pepper and Jane aren't also attending the party.

Tony gives an ambiguous response about Pepper 'having a company to run,'

So, with Pepper's absence, Tony's low-key response to Maria's question and AoU, narratively, being sandwiched between IM3 and Civil War, it's not a stretch to read Tony & Pepper as being broken up IMO.

Tony and Thor have a dick-measuring contest about whose girlfriend is more awesome, so I don't think it's too likely that Tony is smarting over a breakup.

[stealinghome]

Agreed. My understanding of the timeline is that Tony and Pepper are solidly together through Avengers, Iron Man 3, and Age of Ultron, break up between AoU and Civil War while Tony is drowning in guilt, and then get back together after Civil War and before Homecoming. So just one break-up.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I hate timey-whimey gobbeldy gook that deviates from the simplicity that is Back to the Future. So can someone explain to me, like I'm 10, was Steve deciding to stay back with Peggy--did that mean he wasn't Captain America? And if he wasn't, how'd he have the shield to give to Sam? Or did he not fight Schmidt and have to take the plane down into the water, which led to his being frozen for 70 years?

Okay, I've just given myself a headache trying to figure this out.

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I hate timey-whimey gobbeldy gook that deviates from the simplicity that is Back to the Future. So can someone explain to me, like I'm 10, was Steve deciding to stay back with Peggy--did that mean he wasn't Captain America? And if he wasn't, how'd he have the shield to give to Sam? Or did he not fight Schmidt and have to take the plane down into the water, which led to his being frozen for 70 years?

Okay, I've just given myself a headache trying to figure this out.

As I understand the writers who worked on the Agent Carter TV series and the directors have different theories on what happened. However everything seen in the MCU movies happened and Steve went back to some time where 40's automobiles where still seen to live with Peggy Carter either creating another timeline or to use Star Trek terms Steve Rogers honored a temporal prime directive and allowed Hydra to grow inside of S.H.I.E.L.D and Bucky to remain in Soviet  Hydra slavery 

[Jeebus Cripes]

22 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I hate timey-whimey gobbeldy gook that deviates from the simplicity that is Back to the Future. So can someone explain to me, like I'm 10, was Steve deciding to stay back with Peggy--did that mean he wasn't Captain America? And if he wasn't, how'd he have the shield to give to Sam? Or did he not fight Schmidt and have to take the plane down into the water, which led to his being frozen for 70 years?

Okay, I've just given myself a headache trying to figure this out.

If you listen to the directors: Steve is in an alternate timeline/parallel universe. There would be two Caps there: One who crashed and is frozen just like what happened in our timeline. The other is our Cap who is living his life with Peggy. Maybe he's fixing a lot of the wrongs he knows will happen, I'd like to think so. The directors are vague on how Steve ended up back in our main timeline on that bench.

If you listen to the writers: Our Steve went back into our timeline and completed a loop. In other words, he was always Peggy's husband. This would mean that older Steve knowingly let a lot of bad shit go down for the sake of living a peaceful life with Peg. It gets even more confusing when you consider that there are still two Steve's in this timeline, yet they are the same Steve.... Or some shit like that. I don't know. This version of events is dumb and doesn't follow Endgame's time travel logic at all. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Dandesun]

It's a bit of a cock up, really. Figure out what works best in your head and just go with it.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

It's a bit of a cock up, really. Figure out what works best in your head and just go with it.

I guess that by Hollywood convention ties goes to the director. But since screen time was not allocated to telling that part of the story the fan can head canon whichever time travel theory works best for him.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I hate timey-whimey gobbeldy gook that deviates from the simplicity that is Back to the Future. So can someone explain to me, like I'm 10, was Steve deciding to stay back with Peggy--did that mean he wasn't Captain America? And if he wasn't, how'd he have the shield to give to Sam? Or did he not fight Schmidt and have to take the plane down into the water, which led to his being frozen for 70 years?

Okay, I've just given myself a headache trying to figure this out.

I think the theory used in Endgame is far simpler than Back to the Future. Simply put - any change you make will create a divergent timeline, rather than threaten to erase yours.

It removes almost all the paradoxical 'wait, but if he goes back to stop this, then it won't happen, so he won't need to go back to stop it....' and the 'if you step on a butterfly in the past, it could mean you were never born!' stuff.

The only thing they cocked up on was not clearly showing old man Steve coming back to this timeline, at the end. Because the framing of him just sitting on the bench in street clothes makes it seem like he's lived his whole life in this timeline, and just pottered over to the Avengers compound after the battle, to tie up loose ends with his friends.

It seems like the writers forgot their own logic, while the Russo brothers remembered. And it only gets a bit confusing when you realise that alternate timeline must have had two Steve Rogers in it - one marrying Peggy and having a happy and full life, and one frozen in the ice of the Arctic. And you really have to assume that, despite knowing his other self was alive but frozen and trapped, Steve just didn't tell anyone or try to rescue him. Maybe that's part of him finally deciding to live for himself.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think the theory used in Endgame is far simpler than Back to the Future. Simply put - any change you make will create a divergent timeline, rather than threaten to erase yours.

It removes almost all the paradoxical 'wait, but if he goes back to stop this, then it won't happen, so he won't need to go back to stop it....' and the 'if you step on a butterfly in the past, it could mean you were never born!' stuff.

The only thing they cocked up on was not clearly showing old man Steve coming back to this timeline, at the end. Because the framing of him just sitting on the bench in street clothes makes it seem like he's lived his whole life in this timeline, and just pottered over to the Avengers compound after the battle, to tie up loose ends with his friends.

It seems like the writers forgot their own logic, while the Russo brothers remembered. And it only gets a bit confusing when you realise that alternate timeline must have had two Steve Rogers in it - one marrying Peggy and having a happy and full life, and one frozen in the ice of the Arctic. And you really have to assume that, despite knowing his other self was alive but frozen and trapped, Steve just didn't tell anyone or try to rescue him. Maybe that's part of him finally deciding to live for himself.

Wasn't part of the thing Tony invented so that when you come back from your trip you come back to your own timeline. So as long as Steve hung onto that he could come back to his original timeline whenever he wanted. 

Alhough it does lead to a weird question. If the Avengers going back in time to take the stones leads to one divirging timeline, wouldn't Steve going back to return them create another alternate timeline on top of that.

I think that Steve going back created his own timeline. And I have to think it would be a pretty awesome one. Depending on how far back he goes WWII ends early. Bucky probably doesn't become the Winter Soldier. Hydra doesn't take over. The world's smartest man doesn't get killed by Bucky (and probably invents all kinds of awesome shit). And all kind of othet great stuff that Steve can make happen.

Although Scott probably never becomes Ant-man and Bruce never becomes Hulk. But Janet probably never gets trapped and when Thor first shows up on earth it would be old Steve in New Mexico out there to greet and help him.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Kel Varnsen

[festivus]

Can you imagine how alternate Steve is going to feel someday when he gets dug out of the ice and finds out that our Steve went on and lived his life for him? It's horrible. There's no part of this that is ever going to work for me. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

10 minutes ago, festivus said:

Can you imagine how alternate Steve is going to feel someday when he gets dug out of the ice and finds out that our Steve went on and lived his life for him? It's horrible. There's no part of this that is ever going to work for me. 

It really is a hot mess no matter what. Steggy shippers are happy... I guess? I don't see how you could really be happy with how this paints Steve, though. This is a character fail on some level no matter which version of events you choose to believe (Writers vs. Directors), and there is no way around that. 

[festivus]

1 minute ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

This is a character fail on some level no matter which version of events you choose to believe (Writers vs. Directors), and there is no way around that. 

The only thing that could halfway fix it is if all Steve did was get that dance. Then he went and saved Bucky, dug up that time-line's Steve and then promptly called Thor or something and fucked right on out of there. Go around and save people on the other planets, wait for a while and get yourself a nice space wife. I think Nebula's free. That still only fixes it 50% though since he did still leave his friends.

[Danny Franks]

Nah, Steve 'tidied up' the issue of a second Cap, if you know what I mean. 

[Wynterwolf]

6 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Steggy shippers are happy... I guess?

I'm sure some are, but I know a lot that are angry for how Peggy was reduced to a prize (good article about the issue of male entitlement in Steve's arc here). 

I feel like the ending was designed to appeal most to people who either haven't seen the prior movies, or don't remember much about them and so were only going by what was shown in this movie, so it was more like a stand alone.  But even with that, there are still so many logical fallacies that you can't make any scenario work with the text 100%, so you have to either fill in a lot, or ignore stuff.  

[festivus]

11 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm sure some are, but I know a lot that are angry for how Peggy was reduced to a prize (good article about the issue of male entitlement in Steve's arc here). 

Well that article just nails it.

Marvel sucks at romance. The only one they ever got near to right was Tony and Pepper. They need to give up.

From the article:

Quote

The poignancy and potency of Steve and Peggy’s relationship has roots in the metaphor of two ships passing in the night—a bittersweet concept of what could have been.

That's how I see it. Should have left it alone.

[Wynterwolf]

6 minutes ago, festivus said:

That's how I see it. Should have left it alone.

I strongly suspect the writers were mandated to hook Steve up with a woman, and since they were killing Natasha, and Sharon wasn't in the picture, Peggy was their only option.  

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

I strongly suspect the writers were mandated to hook Steve up with a woman, and since they were killing Natasha, and Sharon wasn't in the picture, Peggy was their only option.  

I can see that argument. I think it was more of a question of 'we need to make it so Steve is written out completely but we already killed off Tony and Natasha so killing Steve seems like a step too far... let's give him a happy ending' and this is what they came up with.

And, I've said it before, if you don't think about it, it can work. I just... you know... think about it. If you're happy with that ending then be happy with it. I'm not. But, at the same time, it has opened up the multiverse and I read comics and Into the Spider-Verse is a thing. There are tons of endings. Whatever canon, I've never settled for you when I didn't want to anyway.

I mean, maybe Old!Steve will show up in some capacity if they can get Evans to agree to it? That's the real trick... getting him to agree. He seems ready to be done with it. Which... fair. I would have preferred him retiring to Bucky's goat farm in Wakanda... or going back to school and becoming an artist but... that's what fan fic is for. (Which is the same thing I keep saying to people who hated the GoT ending as well.)

[scriggle]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

Can you imagine how alternate Steve is going to feel someday when he gets dug out of the ice and finds out that our Steve went on and lived his life for him? It's horrible. There's no part of this that is ever going to work for me. 

Especially since you have to believe that Peggy would choose 2023!Steve over her 1945!Steve.

2023!Steve is not the same person as 1945!Steve. He's experienced so much in the decade or so he's been unfrozen. Peggy would absolutely notice the difference. I simply can't believe she would be okay letting her 1945!Steve stay in the ice to marry 2023!Steve.

It would've been so much better if 2023!Steve went back, had his dance with Peggy and then they talked. I believe she would've absolutely told 2023!Steve that he belongs in the future and he should go back. He could then retire and hand the shield off to Sam.

So that's pretty much what I've decided Steve's ending was. I'm ignoring the rest.