S01.E10: Christmas Wishlist

[KaveDweller]

18 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

They got in line behind the woman who didn't appear to be holding anything.  The man then walked up with a flatbed cart filled w/items.  I would've been pissed too. It might be ok to have your husband run back for milk or chips at a grocery store, but if you're in line behind the wife, you wouldn't want the husband to come back with a cartful.

I saw the guy walk up, I just didn't think it looked like that much stuff. It was a Christmas tree lot, things are big. It didn't seem to be overflowing. Plus, since the woman wasn't holding anything, obviously she was waiting for someone to come join her. I might be a little annoyed, but not annoyed enough to make a scene like that.

10 hours ago, ramble said:

The entire Christmas tree decorating scenario felt forced and unrealistic. Are these couples all so completely enmeshed in each other’s lives? It felt weirdly codependent yet detached at the same time. 

I feel like it is a TV thing for a group of friends to always be together, spend holidays together without mentioning any extended families, drop in at other's houses at all hours. 

4 hours ago, doodlebug said:

That is one of my big problems with Delilah.  She is apparently a free-lance interior designer who hasn't worked full time in a number of years.  And, yet, her husband dies suddenly, and, even now, months later, she has no idea that there is a lien against the house she thought was paid for, there is no sign that she is worried about finances, is looking to work full time, has spoken to a lawyer about her husband's estate, which is undoubtedly complicated since he owned a business, has collected on life insurance. 

I can see her not worrying because John had good life insurance, but don't most life insurance policies not pay out on a suicide? Maybe they just had a ton of savings and she thinks with the restaurant she'll be okay? I mean, obviously the whole thing is a set up for Delilah to be shocked with the eviction, so it is probably not worth analyzing.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

 

I can see her not worrying because John had good life insurance, but don't most life insurance policies not pay out on a suicide? Maybe they just had a ton of savings and she thinks with the restaurant she'll be okay? I mean, obviously the whole thing is a set up for Delilah to be shocked with the eviction, so it is probably not worth analyzing.

The suicide clause is only in effect for the first two years of a policy. She mentioned possibly using the life insurance money on the restaurant in the last episode. 

She should have been looked into her finances when she found out the restaurant loan was denied instead of trusting Ashley. She is the type that lets someone else handle the messy details of life.

I hate to defend Delilah in any way but I don’t blame her for being surprised by the eviction. It was established in an earlier episode that the house was paid off years before and then Jon took out another mortgage on the house with out telling her. 

[Dusty]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

The suicide clause is only in effect for the first two years of a policy. She mentioned possibly using the life insurance money on the restaurant in the last episode. 

She should have been looked into her finances when she found out the restaurant loan was denied instead of trusting Ashley. She is the type that lets someone else handle the messy details of life.

I hate to defend Delilah in any way but I don’t blame her for being surprised by the eviction. It was established in an earlier episode that the house was paid off years before and then Jon took out another mortgage on the house with out telling her. 

I would assume that Delilah would also be on the deed to the house. If that's the case then can Jon take out a mortgage without her signing off on it?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Dusty said:

I would assume that Delilah would also be on the deed to the house. If that's the case then can Jon take out a mortgage without her signing off on it?

Ashley asked the banker the same thing but we don’t hear the response. I could actually see Delilah signing something and not knowing what it was for. 

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, Dani said:

I am beginning to wonder why Jon and Delilah even have a second child since he never interacts with his family.  Are we really supposed to believe that a 12 year old who just lost his father is completely fine at Christmas. It is starting to rub me the wrong way that Danny’s only real storyline seems to be that he is gay. Ten episodes in and all we know about him is that he has a crush on a boy and that he is close to Gary. 

We didn't even see them tell him about the baby.

 

3 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

The whole "driver looking at passenger" thing on TV drives me absolutely bonkers.  Damn near every show does it, by all rights there should be hundreds of auto fatalities on the tube.  I'm a great driver with almost 40 years experience behind the wheel and its all I can do to drive and hold a conversation at the same time.

My mom died exactly one week before Thanksgiving 37 years ago.  I haven't really been able to celebrate the holiday since, don't even try actually.

I'm hardly a scintillating conversationalist under normal circumstances, but I don't talk much at all when I'm driving with a passenger.

We've had three deaths in my family in the past year and a half or so, two of them pretty young (early & mid 50s) and completely unexpected. One was in early December last year; the usual big family Christmas was pretty quiet and this year is looking to be much the same. (Though we had fewer people than usual for other reasons, as well.)

[HazelEyes4325]

29 minutes ago, Dusty said:

I would assume that Delilah would also be on the deed to the house. If that's the case then can Jon take out a mortgage without her signing off on it?

Not necessarily.  Thanks to some identity theft that I was still trying to get cleaned up when my husband and I got our house, only my husband's name is on our deed.  

But, even if she was on the deed, I don't think it is a stretch to think of a scenario where Jon put a piece of paper in front of Delilah and asked her to sign it, and she did without bothering to read it.  

[Anela]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

There's no time limit on grief, is there? We all cope so differently.

My mum died on July 24th, 2016, but her birthday is November 30th, so it was always there, right after Thanksgiving. I somehow expect her to show up in time for the holidays, like she's away on a trip, not *gone* gone. It hits me the most with little things at odd times, though. I watched that one movie with Saoirse Ronan, the one where she argues a lot with her mother. That one made me cry, but I expected that. What I didn't expect was the same night, a friend of mine who has been very sick for eight years, was finally able to move back into her own place. The people fixing up the place, hadn't cleaned up after themselves - they left a huge mess, that shouldn't have been there, appliances didn't work, and so on. Her mum stayed for over a week, to help her clean it all up, and replace things... and that's what set me off. That I no longer have a mum to do that with me. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Anela

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Anela said:

My mum died on July 24th, 2016, but her birthday is November 30th, so it was always there, right after Thanksgiving. I somehow expect her to show up in time for the holidays, like she's away on a trip, not *gone* gone. It hits me the most with little things at odd times, though. I watched that one movie with Saoirse Ronan, the one where she argues a lot with her mother. That one made me cry, but I expected that. What I didn't expect was the same night, a friend of mine who has been very sick for eight years, was finally able to move back into her own place. The people fixing up the place, hadn't cleaned up after themselves - they left a huge mess, that shouldn't have been there, appliances didn't work, and so on. Her mum stayed for over a week, to help her clean it all up, and replace things... and that's what set me off. That I no longer have a mum to do that with me. 

 

It's been 16 years since my mom died - and I still get choked up by little things. But I've also added new traditions that honor her each year, which helps. Each Christmas I sing "Silent Night" in her native language (the original language, and written in the city she was from). It's the only song she was willing to sing out loud in company. I added my favorite photo of her to my Christmas display this year - and it warms my heart every time I pass by.

To bring this back to the episode, the daughter donning Jon's Santa suite was the only thing I could sort of relate too, and I have to admit the song was amusing.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Clanstarling

[KnoxForPres]

On 12/13/2018 at 3:08 PM, Gothish520 said:

I hate it when people ask if they can cut. It puts people on the spot and makes the asker seem like they think they are more important, that their lives and their wants should come first. Wait your turn dude, you ain't all that. I've had people lean out their car window while cutting me off and say "hey I'm in a hurry" - well aren't we all? What makes you so special? 

Gary thinks everyone should behave and feel a certain way and when they deviate from his ideals he acts like a hurt, spoiled child. 

Agree. And the way that scene played I think the writers envisioned us out here high fiving each other in solidarity.  When it fact the overwhelming consensus is that was Grade A jerk behavior.

I don’t know about you, but if I had to go to the hospital on the downlow I’d come up with an excuse that would take longer than to buy some sparkling cider. Of course these people do buy lights at tree farms so maybe that meant they were going to an upstate NY orchard to get the real deal.

Where the Ashley storyline once intrigued me it now exhausts me.  And she’s watching from afar while eviction notices are being delivered?  Sheesh.  Can’t help but wonder if the writers are shitting their pants wondering how they can spin this where her keeping this....whatever a secret makes sense.  The “I was trying to protect you” doesn’t hold water because eviction and consequences happen no matter.

And going to Katherine for help, oy vey.  Plot contrivance at its finest.

And to echo the above I’ve grieved more at the loss of a pet (no sarcasm) much less a loved one.  I was waiting for the daughter to break down mid song at the end, but no- happy times! Imagine your by appearances normal, loving  father committing suicide. It would rock every part of you to the core.  No one throws a fishing rod against a wall and screams in agony, frustration or sadness. They cast mistletoe and accept pregnancy in under 5 seconds to even say “if it’s a boy we should name him Jon”.

if only we all had the DNA where life knocks us to the ground and then runs over you and the reaction is “Pepperoni or sausage, it’s Friday Pizza night!”.

[Gothish520]

4 minutes ago, KnoxForPres said:

Agree. And the way that scene played I think the writers envisioned us out here high fiving each other in solidarity.  When it fact the overwhelming consensus is that was Grade A jerk behavior.

I don’t know about you, but if I had to go to the hospital on the downlow I’d come up with an excuse that would take longer than to buy some sparkling cider. Of course these people do buy lights at tree farms so maybe that meant they were going to an upstate NY orchard to get the real deal.

Where the Ashley storyline once intrigued me it now exhausts me.  And she’s watching from afar while eviction notices are being delivered?  Sheesh.  Can’t help but wonder if the writers are shitting their pants wondering how they can spin this where her keeping this....whatever a secret makes sense.  The “I was trying to protect you” doesn’t hold water because eviction and consequences happen no matter.

And going to Katherine for help, oy vey.  Plot contrivance at its finest.

And to echo the above I’ve grieved more at the loss of a pet (no sarcasm) much less a loved one.  I was waiting for the daughter to break down mid song at the end, but no- happy times! Imagine your by appearances normal, loving  father committing suicide. It would rock every part of you to the core.  No one throws a fishing rod against a wall and screams in agony, frustration or sadness. They cast mistletoe and accept pregnancy in under 5 seconds to even say “if it’s a boy we should name him Jon”.

if only we all had the DNA where life knocks us to the ground and then runs over you and the reaction is “Pepperoni or sausage, it’s Friday Pizza night!”.

I don't know, I tend to disagree.

I know "everyone grieves differently" has been said over and over here and I'm the worst offender, but it really is true. And some people are wallowers while others aren't. To get very personal, my mother passed in March of 2016. We have a huge St. Patrick's Day party every year and that year ours was scheduled for less than a week later. We had all just been through months of hell, with the last couple of weeks particularly dreadful. The family discussed it and we all voted to go ahead with the party - some downtime spent with friends and loved ones was what we all needed. We laughed, ate, drank, and blew off lots of steam. There were some private conversations here and there over what had just happened, but we weren't all sitting around crying and going on about it.

I'm perfectly fine imagining that most of the hardcore grieving has been done in private and offscreen by the characters. 

[Clanstarling]

37 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I don't know, I tend to disagree.

I know "everyone grieves differently" has been said over and over here and I'm the worst offender, but it really is true. And some people are wallowers while others aren't. To get very personal, my mother passed in March of 2016. We have a huge St. Patrick's Day party every year and that year ours was scheduled for less than a week later. We had all just been through months of hell, with the last couple of weeks particularly dreadful. The family discussed it and we all voted to go ahead with the party - some downtime spent with friends and loved ones was what we all needed. We laughed, ate, drank, and blew off lots of steam. There were some private conversations here and there over what had just happened, but we weren't all sitting around crying and going on about it.

I'm perfectly fine imagining that most of the hardcore grieving has been done in private and offscreen by the characters. 

I agree that not everyone grieves visibly, and that even in grief you can laugh and enjoy the stories (often of the deceased). In fact, from my experience (mileage varies) the funny stories have helped tremendously. But I also know that others do not find comfort in that - at least not right away.

I do think, however, there is a difference between grieving after an expected death from a long illness, and a sudden death by any means, but particularly suicide. With a long illness, as horrible as it is (and I've been there), there is time to start the grieving process, even while the loved one is alive. So the death isn't the starting point of the grief, but a little bit further along the way.

But our own experiences aside - this is a television show presumably about how friends react after the suicide of one of the friends. IMO, they have to show the reactions in a way that connects to as much of the audience as possible. Since they have so many characters, they have ample opportunities to show the wide variety of reactions.

Any character based show dealing with tragic life experiences, rather than action plots, needs to allow the audience into the private lives of the characters, especially their grieving process in this case.  Offscreen, in my view, is not an option (except for the boring stuff, which can be dismissed with just a line or two, but still needs to be addressed). Otherwise the audience is doing the work of the writers.

The one thing I've liked was Gary's outburst, he is the only one who's shown much more than a nod to the fact of Jon's death.

All that being said, I don't hate the show or the characters, or the actors. I'm just frustrated because it could be so much better.

[KnoxForPres]

8 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I don't know, I tend to disagree.

I know "everyone grieves differently" has been said over and over here and I'm the worst offender, but it really is true. And some people are wallowers while others aren't. To get very personal, my mother passed in March of 2016. We have a huge St. Patrick's Day party every year and that year ours was scheduled for less than a week later. We had all just been through months of hell, with the last couple of weeks particularly dreadful. The family discussed it and we all voted to go ahead with the party - some downtime spent with friends and loved ones was what we all needed. We laughed, ate, drank, and blew off lots of steam. There were some private conversations here and there over what had just happened, but we weren't all sitting around crying and going on about it.

I'm perfectly fine imagining that most of the hardcore grieving has been done in private and offscreen by the characters. 

I think that’s fair- to be sure grieving is unique. I lost my grandmother on Christmas  Day 1997 and got a Simon and Garfunkel cd that year. Hearing certain songs today gets me the lump in the throat.   She had given me an Abercrombie & Fitch shirt that year I’ll never give away even though it will never fit again. And man I miss her so much still.

But I digress. Agreeing with the above we grieve differently the remaining three of the nuclear family appearance wise seem to be trucking along.  I would imagine suicide would be troubling as it would bring up so many questions and what ifs that an illness or accident would not. But I could be wrong there as well. 

Maybe what I’m getting at is I can’t relate to these people. I cried like a baby in My So Called Life because I got what Angela felt after a break up.  Very outdated reference but I don’t know- there’s no Angela here for me. I connect to no one and actually want to. 

 

And the winner of the Emmy who puts my thoughts into words goes to @Clanstarling  

You have a gift!

Edited December 15, 2018 by KnoxForPres

[HazelEyes4325]

43 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

But our own experiences aside - this is a television show presumably about how friends react after the suicide of one of the friends. IMO, they have to show the reactions in a way that connects to as much of the audience as possible. Since they have so many characters, they have ample opportunities to show the wide variety of reactions.

Any character based show dealing with tragic life experiences, rather than action plots, needs to allow the audience into the private lives of the characters, especially their grieving process in this case.  Offscreen, in my view, is not an option (except for the boring stuff, which can be dismissed with just a line or two, but still needs to be addressed). Otherwise the audience is doing the work of the writers.

The one thing I've liked was Gary's outburst, he is the only one who's shown much more than a nod to the fact of Jon's death.

 

1

Ding ding ding!

I'm not denying that everyone grieves differently and, yeah, there might be people for whom having a fun friend get-together two months after the suicide of a spouse/relative/friend might be the way to go, but...

This is a TV show with the premise of people grieving and dealing with the death by suicide of a friend...and yet there doesn't seem to be any grief (hell, sometimes I forget about the suicide).  I think to say that the grief happens off-camera is a cop out and incredibly shitty writing.  I mean, that this the whole basis of the show but they are asking us to overlook the fact that they aren't addressing the point of the show on screen?

The show seems to waver between using "but it's REAL" and "but it's a TV show" excuses whenever they aren't willing or are unable to "go there" with something and it's getting very old very quickly.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

I don't know, I tend to disagree.

I know "everyone grieves differently" has been said over and over here and I'm the worst offender, but it really is true. And some people are wallowers while others aren't. To get very personal, my mother passed in March of 2016. We have a huge St. Patrick's Day party every year and that year ours was scheduled for less than a week later. We had all just been through months of hell, with the last couple of weeks particularly dreadful. The family discussed it and we all voted to go ahead with the party - some downtime spent with friends and loved ones was what we all needed. We laughed, ate, drank, and blew off lots of steam. There were some private conversations here and there over what had just happened, but we weren't all sitting around crying and going on about it.

I'm perfectly fine imagining that most of the hardcore grieving has been done in private and offscreen by the characters. 

I’m fine with not seeing hardcore grieving because that gets tedious but there are degrees to grief that the show is missing. It seems to be all (Sophie and Gary) or nothing (everyone else). These are actors that should be capable of expressing grief and sadness without saying a word or crying a single tear. For instance when Katherine found out Delilah was pregnant it was apparent what she was feeling without saying a word.

We keep seeing the same two characters grieving and everyone else seems to be over Jon’s death.

Also as @Clanstarling said it’s a tv show dealing with the aftermath of suicide only grieving off screen is a cop out.  

[auntiemel]

3 hours ago, KnoxForPres said:

And to echo the above I’ve grieved more at the loss of a pet (no sarcasm) much less a loved one. 

I agree. I lost my (extremely beloved, constant companion) dog to cancer in July. A video of him dressed as Santa came up in my Google Pic memories the other day and I freaking LOST. IT.

Hey, maybe I should've videotaped it and sent it to the writers! :/ I could have been like one of the live models people use when drawing cartoons.

[HazelEyes4325]

49 minutes ago, Dani said:

I’m fine with not seeing hardcore grieving because that gets tedious but there are degrees to grief that the show is missing. It seems to be all (Sophie and Gary) or nothing (everyone else). These are actors that should be capable of expressing grief and sadness without saying a word or crying a single tear. For instance when Katherine found out Delilah was pregnant it was apparent what she was feeling without saying a word.

We keep seeing the same two characters grieving and everyone else seems to be over Jon’s death.

Also as @Clanstarling said it’s a tv show dealing with the aftermath of suicide only grieving off screen is a cop out.  

2

Agreed.  I don't need to see endless footage of someone crying into their coffee cup, but grief is so much more than just moping around and crying.  And, then strange thing is that this show has done this well (Eddie after the hockey rink, Gary's outburst).  The problem is that these are really just isolated incidents and then people go back to seeming to be fine.  They are the exception, not the rule.

I looked up to see what the "official" basis of this show was, and it is:

Quote

A group of friends become motivated to living fuller lives after the unexpected death of a close friend.

(Taken from IMDB, but I've seen this multiple places). 

So, what do we have--a group of friend (check) become motivated (I don't see that much motivation) to living fuller lives (I don't really see this--maybe Eddie going on tour qualifies?  I guess Rome quitting his job and writing his movie does, but that's really an afterthought) after the unexpected death of a close friend (setting up cause and effect: friend dies and then things happen).

We're already halfway through the first season and I don't see much character change in anyone.  And, if there was any change, it comes from things other than Jon's death.  Grief is actually a motivator to change, and so far the only change we've seen is one character getting kicked out of his house for cheating on his wife and another taking an SSRI and only one of those can I see as being a result in any way of the central death of the show.

Grieving is a process, it is ever-changing and unique to each person.  It is also excellent fodder for character development.  The show is really missing an amazing opportunity by pushing it to the back burner.

[KnoxForPres]

58 minutes ago, auntiemel said:

I agree. I lost my (extremely beloved, constant companion) dog to cancer in July. A video of him dressed as Santa came up in my Google Pic memories the other day and I freaking LOST. IT.

Hey, maybe I should've videotaped it and sent it to the writers! :/ I could have been like one of the live models people use when drawing cartoons.

Sending hugs so much.

Edited December 15, 2018 by KnoxForPres

[Gothish520]

Excellent points made by @Clanstarling and @KnoxForPres re: my post. Especially about the difference between someone being sick long term before passing and a sudden death. I definitely had started going through the stages of grief before my mom passed, in fact I think by the time it actually happened I was almost to the acceptance stage. Well, as much as someone can accept losing a loved one.

I think the big difference between my opinion and those of many others here is that I feel like I have seen the grieving, at least some of it, from all of the characters in one way or another. Gary feels it more than anyone besides Delilah maybe, but I think we have seen the sadness from the others. I don't think it is necessary for the show to belabor the point at this stage. Obviously YMMV.

[KnoxForPres]

2 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Excellent points made by @Clanstarling and @KnoxForPres re: my post. Especially about the difference between someone being sick long term before passing and a sudden death. I definitely had started going through the stages of grief before my mom passed, in fact I think by the time it actually happened I was almost to the acceptance stage. Well, as much as someone can accept losing a loved one.

I think the big difference between my opinion and those of many others here is that I feel like I have seen the grieving, at least some of it, from all of the characters in one way or another. Gary feels it more than anyone besides Delilah maybe, but I think we have seen the sadness from the others. I don't think it is necessary for the show to belabor the point at this stage. Obviously YMMV.

In a way I feel I kind of started this and didn’t intend to. My main thing is the kids. I feel innocent kids who view their dad as normal and wonderful and  he commits suicide would change  their life.  Full stop.

And I hope I’m wrong. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by KnoxForPres

[possibilities]

On 12/14/2018 at 2:43 AM, flyingmontana said:

I'll be interested to see if he ends up drinking and resenting her for expressing her seeming expectation that he was going to struggle out there on tour.

If he relapses just because someone said "Don't drink" then he's got a really serious psychological problem and in no way is it the fault of the person who said "Don't drink." Eddie is hard enough to feel any sympathy for, I really hope they don't make it worse by having him try to pass responsibility for a relapse onto Katherine's comment.

I think, since the suicide happened right away, it's hard to even see if it's affected the kids. We see Sophie's sad. But we hardly knew her or her brother or what they were like before Jon's death, and if they suddenly had a personality change, it might be hard to tell. This is made worse by not really seeing them on camera much most of the time, as well.

I think it's kind of weird that the show packages itself as a serious drama on a serious topic, but is seeming to want to be kind of light. I mean, cancer, depression, suicide, infidelity, losing your house, stealing the suicide note... all that stuff is pretty serious business. But the show doesn't seem to have any ambition to make anyone feel that much. It's an odd choice. If they wanted to just be a drama about a friendship group, they could do that. Why try to sell it as something else if those things aren't really going to be explored?

I do think they're trying to do something with Rome's story, but again-- he decided not to kill himself and he got help really early in the show, and he mostly doesn't seem like he has a problem except for when he tells someone he does. But he talks about it in the same tone that is used to discuss hockey tickets, which is an interesting choice. The whole show is like that, really. Eddie also uses the same tone whether he's complaining to Katherine that she left Theo with a babysitter, or he's declaring love for Delilah, or deciding to go on tour. Delilah is equally dewy in every scene, whether she's happy or sad. It has to be the direction, kind of leveling everybody off into a middle zone of expression. I think part of why I like Katherine so much is that sometimes her face lights up and her eyes sparkle and I get the feeling she's actually a person in there, and not just going through the motions.

Edited December 16, 2018 by possibilities

[ams1001]

5 hours ago, auntiemel said:

I agree. I lost my (extremely beloved, constant companion) dog to cancer in July. A video of him dressed as Santa came up in my Google Pic memories the other day and I freaking LOST. IT.

Hey, maybe I should've videotaped it and sent it to the writers! :/ I could have been like one of the live models people use when drawing cartoons.

I was a mess when my ex's dog died, and I didn't even live with him anymore (but, long-story-short, my parents had the dog for the last 7 months or so of his life). To the point where the next morning my boss passed my desk on his way in and just motioned me into his office and let me tell him all about what had happened the night before when we unexpectedly had to make the decision to let him go (telling the story still makes me tear up). I loved that dog. It's been ten years almost and he's still my avatar on several websites. (Hell, I might have ended things earlier if it weren't for him.)

I think my mom cried more when we put her cat to sleep this summer than when her sister died a few months earlier. 

[auntiemel]

4 hours ago, KnoxForPres said:

Sending hugs so much.

Thank you!!

24 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I was a mess when my ex's dog died, and I didn't even live with him anymore (but, long-story-short, my parents had the dog for the last 7 months or so of his life). To the point where the next morning my boss passed my desk on his way in and just motioned me into his office and let me tell him all about what had happened the night before when we unexpectedly had to make the decision to let him go (telling the story still makes me tear up). I loved that dog. It's been ten years almost and he's still my avatar on several websites. (Hell, I might have ended things earlier if it weren't for him.)

I think my mom cried more when we put her cat to sleep this summer than when her sister died a few months earlier. 

So sorry! I know I'll still feel this way in ten years. Pain like this doesn't go away fast. (Well, I mean, unless it's just a little thing like your husband committing suicide. Then you'll be participating in a Girls' Party Wine Commercial by the night of his funeral! :D )

[Fable]

I keep reading how horrible it is that Eddie and Delilah lie about the paternity of the child, but really, are they just supposed to pile that on the kids on top of everything else?  They did agree on the fact that they wanted to present Jon as the father, so I didn't understand Delilah apologizing to Eddie after Sophie became aware of the situation.  However, one thing that irks me is that Delilah is constantly trying to keep Eddie invested in her pregnancy regardless.  

[Dowel Jones]

I know it's probably extremely coincidental because of the writing timeline, but my first thought when Maggie dumped on Gary was the extremely embarrassing incident with George HW Bush and the Japanese Prime Minister way back when.  I'm probably going to hell.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, Fable said:

I keep reading how horrible it is that Eddie and Delilah lie about the paternity of the child, but really, are they just supposed to pile that on the kids on top of everything else?  They did agree on the fact that they wanted to present Jon as the father, so I didn't understand Delilah apologizing to Eddie after Sophie became aware of the situation.  However, one thing that irks me is that Delilah is constantly trying to keep Eddie invested in her pregnancy regardless.  

I think it is pretty clear that they are setting everyone up for some DRAMA in a future episode about the baby's paternity.  My problem with it is that it seems to me that what Delilah is asking of Eddie is so unbelievably unfair.  I almost feel like if she were going to lie to everyone about the baby's paternity, Eddie should be included in that "everyone."  She's basically asking him to give up his own child and I don't think that *he* realizes that yet (because he is unable to think about consequences to anything...) but I'm sure it will be a big part of the future drama in this storyline.

I did think it was weird that Delilah apologizes to Eddie in that scene.  I mean, she has never given any indication that she was ever going to tell anyone the truth (provided, of course, that Eddie is actually the father.  I still wouldn't be surprised if it came out that Jon was actually the father) so I don't understand why all of a sudden she felt any reason to tell the truth.

The fact is that Delilah got herself into a very, very sticky situation and it is absolutely no one's fault but her own that she's there.  It is not, as she would like to claim, Jon's fault and it isn't even Eddie's fault.  Yes, I know that it takes two to tango, but it really only takes one to go to the pharmacy.  This situation is 100% Delilah's making and she is trying to avoid all responsibility for her own actions.

Edited December 16, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Fable said:

I keep reading how horrible it is that Eddie and Delilah lie about the paternity of the child, but really, are they just supposed to pile that on the kids on top of everything else?  They did agree on the fact that they wanted to present Jon as the father, so I didn't understand Delilah apologizing to Eddie after Sophie became aware of the situation.  However, one thing that irks me is that Delilah is constantly trying to keep Eddie invested in her pregnancy regardless.  

I find it horrible because in protecting Sophie and Danny they are robbing Theo of a sibling and the baby of a father. I could understand if they planned on telling the truth in a few months but they seem to plan on keeping it a secret indefinitely. This is something that all the kids deserve to know the truth about even if it is going to hurt. 

I agree that the apology was weird since they were already in agreement. I think it was included so that Eddie could tell her that she was right. 

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, Fable said:

I keep reading how horrible it is that Eddie and Delilah lie about the paternity of the child, but really, are they just supposed to pile that on the kids on top of everything else?  They did agree on the fact that they wanted to present Jon as the father, so I didn't understand Delilah apologizing to Eddie after Sophie became aware of the situation.  However, one thing that irks me is that Delilah is constantly trying to keep Eddie invested in her pregnancy regardless.  

I could understand keeping it from the kids. But Delilah kept it from everyone at first. She lied to everyone, including Eddie, about the parentage. Not because she was (just) thinking about protecting the kids while they grieve, but also protecting herself and not having people mad at her. She told Eddie the truth after a few hours because she needed someone in on her secret and since Eddie was already in on her biggest exposed secret, what was another one? 

It also doesn't sound like Delilah will want to tell anyone the truth, even after the baby's born. As far as I know, she hasn't expressed that she was waiting for the kids to be out of that initial grief stage to tell, or that she was planning on letting people know the truth once the baby's born. If she had said that, then that would make perfect sense. I would actually be supportive of that choice. But their friends already know about the affair and are also at the stage of joking about it. This plot is ONLY for the dramatic reveal by the end of the season. It doesn't make sense otherwise. 

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

The fact is that Delilah got herself into a very, very sticky situation and it is absolutely no one's fault but her own that she's there.  It is not, as she would like to claim, Jon's fault and it isn't even Eddie's fault.  Yes, I know that it takes two to tango, but it really only takes one to go to the pharmacy.  This situation is 100% Delilah's making and she is trying to avoid all responsibility for her own actions.

 

Long before menopause (and the morning after pill), even during marriage, I wanted partners who were responsible and respectful when it came to birth control. However, I never lost sight that it was MY body and my life that would be impacted (ideally, the man's life as well - but I come from a family with a number of oopsie babies whose fathers bounced the minute they heard the news, so I never saw that as a guarantee.)

So this is basically the advice I gave my daughters, always involve your partner, but make sure you take care of yourself.

It's one of the reasons I find Delilah difficult to sympathize with. People have affairs, and I don't generally judge - no one knows what the inside of someone else's marriage is like - but people who have affairs need to be extra careful regarding the potential outcomes - pregnancy and stds.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Clanstarling

[alexvillage]

20 hours ago, KnoxForPres said:

I don’t know about you, but if I had to go to the hospital on the downlow I’d come up with an excuse that would take longer than to buy some sparkling cider. Of course these people do buy lights at tree farms so maybe that meant they were going to an upstate NY orchard to get the real deal.

It is lazy writing. They needed to write this so that Sophie could find the cider in the pantry. 

9 hours ago, Fable said:

I keep reading how horrible it is that Eddie and Delilah lie about the paternity of the child, but really, are they just supposed to pile that on the kids on top of everything else? 

They are supposed to take responsibility for their actions and if this means piling up on the others, it is on them. Basically they are excusing their lies because of how they assume others will feel about them (D+E),  how they will be seen, treated, shunned, blamed, whatever. It is immature and selfish. They are only thinking about themselves, how to spin the first lie - the affair - with a bigger lie. It would be terrible for the kids but Delilah is simply putting herself before the kids, whatever she says to exempt herself. 

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I could understand keeping it from the kids. But Delilah kept it from everyone at first. She lied to everyone, including Eddie, about the parentage. Not because she was (just) thinking about protecting the kids while they grieve, but also protecting herself and not having people mad at her. She told Eddie the truth after a few hours because she needed someone in on her secret and since Eddie was already in on her biggest exposed secret, what was another one? 

 

And, when the secret comes out, who is really going to pay the price?  Sophie (and maybe Danny) will be mad at their mom, but Delilah will still be their mother and their custodial parent.  Eddie will lose pretty much everything--his sobriety (if he hasn't already by that point), any headway he made in having a civil co-parenting relationship with Katherine, probably respect from Theo (and there might possibly be some custodial repercussions, depending on how rightfully pissed Katherine is), and a relationship with this new child.  Plus, I would put money on all the friends excusing Delilah and blaming him--AGAIN.  It was frustrating when the affair came out because, while Eddie did deserve blame, so did Delilah.  But, in this case, this is *Delilah's* lie and I'm going to bet that Eddie pays the price.

Edited December 16, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[apn85]

Finally, I found a place to talk about this show! I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts! :) 

 

I had to laugh because on just about every TV show I watch I end up liking the character and/or couple nobody else does. So I am in no way shocked that I'm over here alone on the Gary/Maggie island, LOL. I'm so serious about this - it's some sort of character flaw of mine. :P They have both gotten on my nerves plenty but there is just something endearing about them to me. I don't want her to die but I do think her delaying treatment is gonna cause issues and be drama down the road. 

I cannot wait to find out what happened with John! January is too far away. Though if Delilah had shown up on my front door asking for help I would have told her she needed to pull Google up and find her own help. Katherine is a saint. For me, Delilah is just insufferable and Eddie runs a close 2nd behind her! 

I do really like Rome/Regina. I hate all this crap with John is going to mess her restaurant up. 

[HazelEyes4325]

1 minute ago, apn85 said:

I had to laugh because on just about every TV show I watch I end up liking the character and/or couple nobody else does. So I am in no way shocked that I'm over here alone on the Gary/Maggie island, LOL. I'm so serious about this - it's some sort of character flaw of mine. :P They have both gotten on my nerves plenty but there is just something endearing about them to me. I don't want her to die but I do think her delaying treatment is gonna cause issues and be drama down the road. 

 

 

I don't think you are alone on the Gary/Maggie island.  I can't say I'm a fan of the couple, but I like the individual characters well enough.  I mean, I still don't know how Maggie became everyone's best friend overnight, but that is far less mystifying to me than why Katherine is now a part of their core group.  I also think that my problem with them as a couple is really only because of how the show has chosen to write the relationship.  I think that if they had written a few key points in past episodes differently (and not had that awful scene in the line in this episode!), I'd be more on their side.

[apn85]

32 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I don't think you are alone on the Gary/Maggie island.  I can't say I'm a fan of the couple, but I like the individual characters well enough.  I mean, I still don't know how Maggie became everyone's best friend overnight, but that is far less mystifying to me than why Katherine is now a part of their core group.  I also think that my problem with them as a couple is really only because of how the show has chosen to write the relationship.  I think that if they had written a few key points in past episodes differently (and not had that awful scene in the line in this episode!), I'd be more on their side.

 

Yes, I felt the same way about her getting in the group so quickly. That was pretty unrealistic, IMO. I mean coming to a funeral as a plus one?  Aside from that and the obvious issues they have individually and together - I think I like how they have changed one another in small ways.  It's anyone's interpretation but I feel like Maggie made the decision to get treatment because of everything Gary said at the party and how upset he was. I think that finally opened her eyes. I don't get the impression she suddenly decided oh hey I want to do this now for myself. Not that she shouldn't want to do what she truly wants but she was considering someone else's feelings for once. To me it was more seeing how abandoned Gary obviously feels by John and realizing she was doing the same thing to him. I dunno, there is just something about them for me. Granted, I realize they may be a means to an entirely different end. We'll see! 

Edited December 16, 2018 by apn85

[Guest]

3 hours ago, apn85 said:

 

I  had to laugh because on just about every TV show I watch I end up liking the character and/or couple nobody else does. So I am in no way shocked that I'm over here alone on the Gary/Maggie island, LOL. I'm so serious about this - it's some sort of character flaw of mine. :P They have both gotten on my nerves plenty but there is just something endearing about them to me. I don't want her to die but I do think her delaying treatment is gonna cause issues and be drama down the road. 

I think I will like them more as a couple now that Maggie is getting chemo. Up to this point they have been hurt by bad writing to drag out her decision when it was abundantly apparent what her choice was going to be. I did like them together in the episode where they babysat Theo. I just really hate that I had to sit through three episodes of him pressuring her. 

[JP100]

On 12/12/2018 at 10:37 PM, LucyEth said:

the actress is always whispering, sometimes I can't hear what she is saying.

I usually turn on the closed captions and it's great! I don't miss a thing.

On 12/12/2018 at 10:37 PM, LucyEth said:

 I think Gary saying "I can't believe she is gone" in the coming attractions is probably a fake out making us think he is talking about Maggie.

I think he's referring to Sophie who I believe is going to leave home after she finds out that Jon is not the father of the baby.

 

On 12/13/2018 at 2:33 AM, topanga said:

True, but how stupid was Delilah for not knowing anything about her family’s finances? She hasn’t met with one lawyer or financial planner since Jon died? I suppose that adds to the drama of the show, but I find it horribly unrealistic and irresponsible. 

And, what happened to the spectacular job Jon did at setting everyone up financially before he died??

 

I did not understand Gary's lline about the old man taking out his checkbook at the tree decoration place. What did that mean??

[apn85]

10 hours ago, Dani said:

I think I will like them more as a couple now that Maggie is getting chemo. Up to this point they have been hurt by bad writing to drag out her decision when it was abundantly apparent what her choice was going to be. I did like them together in the episode where they babysat Theo. I just really hate that I had to sit through three episodes of him pressuring her. 

It was a disaster, I agree. 

I didn't think he should pressure her but at the same time I never really liked how she expected him to just go along with her decision and have no opinion on the matter. She wasn't upfront with him. She injected herself into his life, even if it started as a hookup, at a time when he was already vulnerable from losing one of his best friends and felt he should understand her decision and not question it. The same applies for her when it comes to the others. She's formed a close relationship with Rome, who was suicidal, all while having this plan for herself. I don't think she did it maliciously, and I think she's been a victim of complicated grief (like she spoke about), but I don't think she was considering anyone else's feelings. I am by no means saying Gary is a saint (far from it) but I thought his reaction was pretty authentic. Did I need it to drag on for 3 episodes? I'm with you on that one. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by apn85

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JP100 said:

And, what happened to the spectacular job Jon did at setting everyone up financially before he died??

My guess is that Ashley happened. Jon clearly has a plan for the second insurance policy that Delilah was supposed to find. 

20 minutes ago, JP100 said:

I did not understand Gary's lline about the old man taking out his checkbook at the tree decoration place. What did that mean??

That because he was old and using checks that he was going to take forever and hold up the line. 

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, JP100 said:

I did not understand Gary's lline about the old man taking out his checkbook at the tree decoration place. What did that mean??

Apparently some people think that if you pay by check you are slowing down the line. Some people are against anyone who pays in cash, too. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's that much of a snob deserves to be kept waiting just on principle.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

Apparently some people think that if you pay by check you are slowing down the line. Some people are against anyone who pays in cash, too. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's that much of a snob deserves to be kept waiting just on principle.

Checks do seem to take longer - which is why I haven't written one in a store checkout in so long I can't remember the last time I did it. It won't be all that long before checks aren't even a thing anymore, so I've pretty much embraced the future (well, except for that app that lets you pay from your phone, I'm still hesitant about that). That being said, I don't tend to get annoyed, because I am not usually in a hurry when I shop. Sad to say, it's kind of my "me" time.

I'm more annoyed by people who can't read the coupons and get the wrong stuff and make a kerfuffle about it. (the kerfuffle part being the operative word when it comes to being annoyed).

Edited December 17, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Nancybeth]

Not only does this friend group spend all their time together, the show also portrays Boston as the smallest city in the world.  It seems to take no time for them to get from one location to another, or from (presumably) downtown to the suburbs.  They are also driving constantly and parking right in front of wherever they're going.  I've only been to Boston a couple times but I feel like there's absolutely nothing realistic in the way they portray it!  

I assume the "I can't believe she's gone" isn't about Maggie but another character we haven't met and it comes in a flashback and not in "present day."  I agree that is also could be Ashley or Sophie.  

Why didn't they just say Delilah's ankle hurt or tailbone hurt after the fall and Eddie took her to get it checked out?  Telling elaborate lies doesn't help anyone.  

[Gothish520]

15 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Checks do seem to take longer - which is why I haven't written one in a store checkout in so long I can't remember the last time I did it. It won't be all that long before checks aren't even a thing anymore, so I've pretty much embraced the future (well, except for that app that lets you pay from your phone, I'm still hesitant about that). That being said, I don't tend to get annoyed, because I am not usually in a hurry when I shop. Sad to say, it's kind of my "me" time.

I'm more annoyed by people who can't read the coupons and get the wrong stuff and make a kerfuffle about it. (the kerfuffle part being the operative word when it comes to being annoyed).

 

First of all, "kerfuffle" is one of my favorite words, I use it often! :D

Second, I agree that checks do take longer, and though I try not to be an impatient person, I have rolled my eyes on occasion when someone dawdles. Back when checks were popular, it always bugged me when someone would pull out their checkbook after the cashier rang all of their stuff and told them the total - why were they not writing the check out beforehand? I always had the check completely filled out save for the total. It's possible that maybe the total was the deciding factor in some cases, but I'm sure not all.

ETA: regarding the coupon kerfuffles, I so agree - as someone who stupidly chose a career in retail, people who can't read and/or understand coupons and/or sale signs are annoying, to say the least. Reading comprehension is important, lol.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Gothish520

[debraran]

I haven't used a check in a while but most stores had a machine it went through and they gave it back as a receipt. In the "olden days" they needed your license, etc. I deal with a lot of checks at my doctor's office not only from elderly but from younger adults. I wondered if like one of my daughters, they needed a "real" check for their DD at work and are trying to use them up. lol

I haven't used mine often but will for gifts in the mail or sometimes to a charity. It is a stereotype I can see TV using though. My big pet peeve is coupons, and trying to use the wrong ones and not reading exp dates and reading their receipt (usually long) while standing by register so cashier can't ring your order and questioning what everything is. (I'm trying to just breath then and not get a headache)

And even when drive ups have signs saying "PLEASE have money ready and transaction when you get to window, they don't".  ; p

Edited December 18, 2018 by debraran

[ElectricBoogaloo]

21 minutes ago, debraran said:

I deal with a lot of checks at my doctor's office not only from elderly but from younger adults. I wondered if like one of my daughters, they needed a "real" check for their DD at work and are trying to use them up. lol

I use checks for the copay when I go to the doctor's office because on more than one occasion (at multiple doctors, mind you), I was later sent a bill saying that I hadn't paid. I had the handwritten receipt that they gave me, but they said that wasn't good enough. I then tried to send them a copy of my credit card statement showing the line item that said I paid X amount to their office and that wasn't good enough either. Now I write a check because it seems to shut them up more easily when I send them a copy of the front and back of the check  that shows their office deposited it. Some of the offices have a stamp that fills out their info so you just have to write the date and amount, but honestly by the time I finish handwriting everything in, they're still messing around with my paperwork and I'm the one who ends up waiting for the staff (not the other way around). I rarely use checks for anything else though so I've had the same box for ages.

[debraran]

38 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I use checks for the copay when I go to the doctor's office because on more than one occasion (at multiple doctors, mind you), I was later sent a bill saying that I hadn't paid. I had the handwritten receipt that they gave me, but they said that wasn't good enough. I then tried to send them a copy of my credit card statement showing the line item that said I paid X amount to their office and that wasn't good enough either. Now I write a check because it seems to shut them up more easily when I send them a copy of the front and back of the check  that shows their office deposited it. Some of the offices have a stamp that fills out their info so you just have to write the date and amount, but honestly by the time I finish handwriting everything in, they're still messing around with my paperwork and I'm the one who ends up waiting for the staff (not the other way around). I rarely use checks for anything else though so I've had the same box for ages.

Sadly common. I work at alarge  doctor's office, part of about 10 offices, and my daughter had a 10.00 copay here. I had her pay by check and she got a bill 2 months in a row. I finally sent them a copy of canceled check, front and back and they stopped. I don't know why , but I do hear patients say they show them charge and it doesn't always work. Sometimes a check is more specific, it is dated, patient puts "copay" in message line or doctor's name.  Frustrating nonethelless.

[alexvillage]

11 hours ago, Nancybeth said:

Not only does this friend group spend all their time together, the show also portrays Boston as the smallest city in the world.  It seems to take no time for them to get from one location to another, or from (presumably) downtown to the suburbs.  They are also driving constantly and parking right in front of wherever they're going.

That's TV World. Have you watched 24? No traffic in LA, crossing the city and avoiding all terror plots one hour at a time.

 

11 hours ago, Nancybeth said:

Why didn't they just say Delilah's ankle hurt or tailbone hurt after the fall and Eddie took her to get it checked out?  Telling elaborate lies doesn't help anyone.

As I mentioned, it is lazy writing. By mentioning something that makes this much sense, how would they put Sophie in the pantry, realizing they had the cider, get her to check her app and go to the hospital? You are demanding too much thinking of the writers. 

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

First of all, "kerfuffle" is one of my favorite words, I use it often! :D

Second, I agree that checks do take longer, and though I try not to be an impatient person, I have rolled my eyes on occasion when someone dawdles. Back when checks were popular, it always bugged me when someone would pull out their checkbook after the cashier rang all of their stuff and told them the total - why were they not writing the check out beforehand? I always had the check completely filled out save for the total. It's possible that maybe the total was the deciding factor in some cases, but I'm sure not all.

ETA: regarding the coupon kerfuffles, I so agree - as someone who stupidly chose a career in retail, people who can't read and/or understand coupons and/or sale signs are annoying, to say the least. Reading comprehension is important, lol.

When reading Gabaldon (or watching Gabaldon) I occasionally switch to "stramash" which is also fun to say. :)

My daughter was also in retail for a while for one of those craft store chains. She came home each day brutalized by customers who'd yell at her and blame her for their idiocy. I'm glad she's not doing that any more. So, I feel for you Gothish.

2 hours ago, debraran said:

Sadly common. I work at alarge  doctor's office, part of about 10 offices, and my daughter had a 10.00 copay here. I had her pay by check and she got a bill 2 months in a row. I finally sent them a copy of canceled check, front and back and they stopped. I don't know why , but I do hear patients say they show them charge and it doesn't always work. Sometimes a check is more specific, it is dated, patient puts "copay" in message line or doctor's name.  Frustrating nonethelless.

Lately, I've managed to avoid that by never remembering what my co-pay is (insurance changes each year and so do the details). They don't seem to print the co-pay on the card anymore. So my doctor just bills me. Works well for me.

[geauxaway]

10 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

First of all, "kerfuffle" is one of my favorite words, I use it often! :D

Second, I agree that checks do take longer, and though I try not to be an impatient person, I have rolled my eyes on occasion when someone dawdles. Back when checks were popular, it always bugged me when someone would pull out their checkbook after the cashier rang all of their stuff and told them the total - why were they not writing the check out beforehand? I always had the check completely filled out save for the total. It's possible that maybe the total was the deciding factor in some cases, but I'm sure not all.

ETA: regarding the coupon kerfuffles, I so agree - as someone who stupidly chose a career in retail, people who can't read and/or understand coupons and/or sale signs are annoying, to say the least. Reading comprehension is important, lol.

THIS!!!  I totally laughed at the line in this episode because it does irritate me whe I get stuck behind a check writer.  Even worse?  When they have to BALANCE their register right there in line, too.  🤣

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, geauxaway said:

THIS!!!  I totally laughed at the line in this episode because it does irritate me whe I get stuck behind a check writer.  Even worse?  When they have to BALANCE their register right there in line, too.  🤣

It bothers me anytime I am in line and the person in front of me doesn't bother to pull out their wallet until after the total is rung up.  Do they not understand how retail works?  Did they think if they weren't ready to pay they could get the stuff for free?  Get out that credit card, cash, or checkbook and BE READY, people!

[possibilities]

I wonder if "I can't believe she's gone" means Ashley skipped town. She's certainly going too be in hot water if she stays, once everyone finds out what she's been up to.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I wonder if "I can't believe she's gone" means Ashley skipped town. She's certainly going too be in hot water if she stays, once everyone finds out what she's been up to.

I think that's a very plausible option for the show.  Gary didn't seem upset about whoever was gone, so I don't think it was 1-Maggie or 2-a death of anybody.  Of course, once Ashley becomes mildly interesting, they send her off... (if that's the way it plays out).