S14.E07: Unhuman Nature

[Aeryn13]

Question: in the fishing scene when Jack says his regret would be basically missing the interpersonal moments and "not spending more time with you", did you read the "you" as plural or singularly directed at Dean? Because I read it as plural since it wouldn`t make much sense for Jack to be solely focused on Dean and be all "fuck Sam and Cas, I never wanted to spend time with them in the first place".

But I`ve seen enough people on social media platforms see it as just refering to Dean. And to be fair, the bonding scenes in the episode were super-focused on Dean and Jack. I mean, Jack specifically requested fishing because he considered it Dean`s happiest memory of father/son bonding time via Dean`s own recollections. And it would have felt more organic if he had said "I`m gonna miss not spending more time with you guys". 

This is truly a piece of dialogue for me where I don`t know what they meant. So I`m curious to know what other folks think about it. 

And is there a reason they are suddenly doing super-bonding between Dean and Jack? I like the scenes but that focus in the show kinda comes out of nowhere. So far in the Season it looked to be Cas` new thing.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought this was pretty lackluster to be honest. And I fast-forwarded all the Nick scenes because I. just. don`t. care. Even by fastforwarding I noticed how much screentime it took up. Bucklemming take their stanning to the next level. And of course Lucifer wakes up in the Empty, looking like a silly CGI Terminator version. Oy, did that look bad. 

The Dean/Jack scenes were well done but overall because of their uber-woobifying of Jack instead of giving him a real character, everything was far less effective than it could have been. I don`t even know why this old "Dean was so mean to poor Jack" chestnut was brought up in the episode. They prominently put it in the previouslies and then referenced it in dialogue but it really didn`t affect anything. And why would it? The characters have long since moved beyond it so this served no real purpose in the story, not even in terms of emotional growth. Thankfully, it didn`t descend into Dean-bashing but if it had not been there, nothing would have changed.

Rowena was fine but didn`t have all that much to do. Her not knowing who Jack is despite that scene in Season 13 was just embarassing. In terms of "screw canon", this is Bucklemmings second biggest offense, right after making Lucifer the old brother because they arrogantly and stupidly were ignorant of the entire Season 5 storyline. 

Thankfully no AU hunters. Please don`t ever return. 

Dean`s woozy-spells, looks like Michael looks in through him. Though I honestly don`t get why this would suddenly flare up. There was nothing like that in the KaiaSue episode and we know Michael is interested in her stupid spear. This is the first time we`ve seen this dizzyness from Dean so why would anything in the current situation trigger it? Simply them talking about archangel grace? Makes no sense. 

If Bucklemming could have gotten over their insane Lucifer/Mark-obsession, this could have been an episode that was okay but because they need to bring this tired overdone character back and happily negate Dean`s sacrifice, I`m left with a lot of annoyance.

This post says it all for me also, as regards this episode.

And I SO! want Dean's dizzy spells to mean something that keeps Dean connected to Michael and in a way that makes it impossible for any other character to usurp the storyline; but honestly, I fear that it's this more than anything else

2 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Even if it does mean something, nothing is going to come off it. It's just another little piece of ~clickbait~ to keep Dean girls coming back.

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm hoping if it is Michael's doing that he is making it so Dean himself doesn't remember those moments so he can't tell anyone about them if he doesn't know he had them.  

This would make sense-so it probably won't happen. :-/

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And is there a reason they are suddenly doing super-bonding between Dean and Jack? I like the scenes but that focus in the show kinda comes out of nowhere. So far in the Season it looked to be Cas` new thing.

I think it's all about Dean's 'guilt'. Sam said as much - that Dean can't forgive himself for being so awful to the cinnamon roll. So, viewing it kindly, this is Dean making up for it and Jack 'forgiving' him and all being right in the world. Viewing it cynically (and probably accurately), it magnifies just how much of a dick Dean was to him, and his guilt will only be exacerbated by Jack being even more cinnamonier (is too a word) toward him while dying prettily. I am guessing that Dean will screw up before its done, somehow making things even worse for Jack before he is saved by dear old dad.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I`ve seen enough people on social media platforms see it as just refering to Dean. And to be fair, the bonding scenes in the episode were super-focused on Dean and Jack. I mean, Jack specifically requested fishing because he considered it Dean`s happiest memory of father/son bonding time via Dean`s own recollections. And it would have felt more organic if he had said "I`m gonna miss not spending more time with you guys". 

This is truly a piece of dialogue for me where I don`t know what they meant. So I`m curious to know what other folks think about it. 

And is there a reason they are suddenly doing super-bonding between Dean and Jack? I like the scenes but that focus in the show kinda comes out of nowhere. So far in the Season it looked to be Cas` new thing.

It's Buck-Lemming, so my feeling is that it was written the way it was in order to highlight Dean's guilt over treating the NougatBaby so "badly" from the beginning and for refusing to jump on the Jack the Wonderkid bandwagon right away, and as everyone else did. They tried their hardest to push that nonsense in every way in this episode, IMO- EXCEPT(thankfully) by having Dean and Jack discuss it in an outright fashion. And yes, if there was anything to be thankful and grateful for that came out of this one-it was that specific omission-again IMO.

ETA: or what gonzosgirrl said.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Myrelle

[Commando Cody]

I thought it was weird that Jack was all hooked up to stuff - like stuff to help him breathe - in the hospital. He was falling down. When he gets back to the bunker, he can stand on his own.  Jack's whole episode, for me, was how is he walking around like normal right now?  For the record I like Jack. 

I was actually getting invested in Nick's story. I wanted to see where it led. Maybe we could have explored this Braxis character.  Too bring back Lucifer already is just crappy writing. I think they could have lasted the season on Nick's revenge.  Getting Lucifer back could have waited until next season - if there is one.  I am very disappointed. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Cattyyer said:

Yes, but I think Sam and Dean don`t want to bring them back. Remember, when on 13x22 they left Gabriel and Lucifer? How can they open the portal, if all the archangels are gone?

That doesn't negate the fact that they promised.  Plus, they didn't leave Michael and Lucifer behind to trap the hunters (I think gabe was already dead when they crossed over) in order to trap the hunters, but because they didn't want them over here.

[bethy]

Well, I was going to rewatch the episode to see what Sam and Cas had said about Dean, since I missed it (I make heavy use of the ff button these days), but if that conversation was just them saying that Dean feels guilty about how he treated Jack initially, then maybe I won't. 

Personally, I didn't pick up on any guilty feelings from Dean as he interacted with Jack. I think he was rightfully suspicious early on, was honest with Jack about how he felt, learned to like/love the kid, and is now wanting to spend time with Jack because he's going to grieve his loss if he dies. I think Jack looks up to Dean and respects him as more of a father-figure than he does either Cas or Sam because Dean is basically head of their little household. And Dean, for all his gruffness, is the caretaker for all three of the other men more so than either Sam or Cas for all their fretting/hand-wringing over Jack.

I mean, who wouldn't want a dad who would sit on your bed when you have a nightmare AND shoot you in the back when you're acting like a psycho. Dean's the whole package!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Well, I was going to rewatch the episode to see what Sam and Cas had said about Dean, since I missed it (I make heavy use of the ff button these days), but if that conversation was just them saying that Dean feels guilty about how he treated Jack initially, then maybe I won't. 

The episode was super-weird in that regard. The previouslies were all "mean Dean, woobie Jack" and the faded out with a scene where Dean and Jack were all buddy buddy at the kitchen table from last week. Then, within the episode, neither Jack nor Dean ever referenced those early days. It was just Cas that remarked on how Dean took the Jack situation particularly hard - which, not really, not more so than Sam or Cas himself - and Sam responded that this was because Dean hasn`t forgiven himself for those early days. What? This has not been a thing between Dean and Jack for ages. I certainly didn`t think it influenced his current behaviour. I mean, what`s the excuse for last week then? Before Dean supposedly felt oh-so-guilty, he was nice to Jack then, too.  

Thankfully, if not for the previouslies, I felt that in the episode itself this whole supposed super-guilty Dean-theme didn`t come through at all. Sam and Cas looked strange for even discussing it in that context because to address it in any organic way, the only characters who could have discussed it would have been Dean and Jack. And those two were never even in the vicinity of such a conversation.  

[bethy]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

and Sam responded that this was because Dean hasn`t forgiven himself for those early days. What?

Sigh. I wish that just once they would let Sam explain his brother's behavior in a positive way, as opposed to "Dean's guilt-ridden [or angry or in denial or whatever]." Like why not have Sam say, "Dean's gotten really close to Jack - the same way we have - so of course it's hit him hard." I feel like Sam's responses are so indicative of the writers' understanding of Dean as a character. Nevermind the fact that I guess Cas is surprised by Dean's reaction, too? Does Cas not think Dean would care that Jack is dying? Okay.   

Edited November 30, 2018 by bethy

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And is there a reason they are suddenly doing super-bonding between Dean and Jack?

Probably because even this set of morons realizes that the others just cannot for the life of them carry an emotional scene, what with the stuttering (JP) and the brow-furrowing (MC).

[juppschmitz]

Why is "The Empty" even called "The Empty"?

It's LITERALLY not empty.

[ILoveReading]

Another moment, I found kind of WTF was when Dean started feeling guilty for taking Jack out.  Dean knows Jack's dying and that Jack was probably going out anyway so going as a chaperone was actually safer and it gave Jack a moment of happiness.  I'm not sure why Dean needed that pointed out to him.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Another moment, I found kind of WTF was when Dean started feeling guilty for taking Jack out.  Dean knows Jack's dying and that Jack was probably going out anyway so going as a chaperone was actually safer and it gave Jack a moment of happiness.  I'm not sure why Dean needed that pointed out to him.

Or that life is risky. JFC.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

As a native Delawarean, I enjoyed that Nick is from Pike Creek, and that he met that reporter lady in Wilmington.  We always get a kick out of seeing our dinky state referenced in media.  I was annoyed that they misnamed our newspaper.  It's "The News Journal", not "The Tribune".

I'm sure that was for legal purposes.

 

10 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

Wasn't Nick thrown into the cage with Sam and Dean's half brother whatshisname?  How did he get out?  Where was he during that time 2 seasons ago when Lucifer was hopping around among famous and powerful human vessels?

No, Lucifer moved from Nick to Sam and Nick was presumably left for dead or drooling on the floor of wherever they were.  Crowley "secured" the vessel at some point in time, but I don't know when.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Question: in the fishing scene when Jack says his regret would be basically missing the interpersonal moments and "not spending more time with you", did you read the "you" as plural or singularly directed at Dean? Because I read it as plural since it wouldn`t make much sense for Jack to be solely focused on Dean and be all "fuck Sam and Cas, I never wanted to spend time with them in the first place".

I heard it as just Dean.  He hero worships Dean more than the other two.

[PAForrest]

I think Dabb's Soapernatural is wearing down my will to live or something. I couldn't even bring myself to expend the energy of a finger on the FF button.  I can't get enthused, because of course there's nothing really to get enthused about - but at the same time, I can't get overly aggravated anymore either. I'm suffering a severe case of Soapernatural ennui.

All of which means I let the episode run without FF'ing, as much as I hated almost every single second of the Nickifer storyline, and at the same time feel the need to Clockwork Orange my eyelids to watch Consumption!Jack being all consumptioning.

I thought the Dean/Jack road trip plot was the most watchable part of the episode, and find it very interesting that aside from the fact a few weeks ago Jack couldn't give a damn about Dean, ironically Dean is the one he wants to spend the most time with and whose approval he craves the most. I understand this, obviously, but I know it's just a tiny little bone the writers are throwing Dean fans' way to make up for screwing us out of the Dean!Michael storyline. And I simply cannot bite at the silly little blurred vision carrot coming from Dean's, albeit beautiful, eyes. It should be something, but fool me ... I've run out of digits to count the number of times they've strung me along. I'm not going to believe anything of value will come of this until it actually does. Wake me if and when that happens.

Are Bucklemming as a duo desperately in love with Mark Pellegrino, is it one or the other, or maybe Singer is the one with the crush? Sorry, I don't buy anyone being that devoted to such an unlikable guest star character that they can't live without writing about him despite the fact that most of the fan base can't be paid enough to care.

I like Rowena a lot, it's always fun to find a way to get her back into an episode. However, she knew who Jack was before this - didn't she? Doesn't make any sense.

Sergei is a potentially interesting character, FWIW.

So after suffering way too much time spent on CSI: Nickifer, am I supposed to take away from this that some demon set out to kill Nick's family so ... what? So that Nick would be ready to accept Lucifer? Why him, specifically? For my money, the only thing that may have made this annoying side plot remotely enlightening, if not interesting, is if we discovered that the reason Nick was suitable for Lucifer is because he was a garden variety psychopath who actually killed his own family, and probably others, especially since in reality whenever a wife and child/children are murdered, it's 99.99991/2% likely they were killed by the husband/father.

So naturally Lucifer is going to be resurrected ... again, making Jensen's miniscule bit of time as Michael even more worthless than it has already turned out to be. I just want to cry.

Edited December 1, 2018 by PAForrest

[MysteryGuest]

I just finished watching the episode, and for the first time since watching this show, I fast-forwarded through the Nick/Lucifer scenes on the first viewing.  I just have no interest.  They've made me not care at all about Nick, not that I ever really gave his story much thought, and I already didn't care about Lucifer.  But enough about them.  What I was left with by not watching any of those scenes was a nice, sappy little episode that involved Team Free Will and a little Rowena on the side.  Pretty much my favorite characters on the show.  It made me a bit sad.  Not because I really think Jack will die, but because I miss seeing those characters interact with each other.  

The schmaltz was a bit over-the-top, but I find the characters all so likable that it didn't bother me.  Jack may be too good to be true, but I enjoy the actor and I think he fits in well with the rest of them.  I just wish the idiot writers could get a clue and write some intriguing, mysterious, supernatural stories involving the characters we like.  Why is that so frigging difficult for them?

I'm not sure I'm going to bother going back to watch the scenes I passed over.  I can't change the fact that TPTB won't let Lucifer die, or that they have zero respect for canon or even simple plausibility.  So why subject myself to it?  I've enjoyed most of the episodes so far, so maybe I'll just live in my little imaginary world for a little while where Lucifer is still dead, and my favorite characters are going to pull out all the stops to save one of their own, like they always do.  Of course, no doubt it will bring on another Apocalypse, but I'd almost prefer that at this point. 

[tennisgurl]

I feel bad, because I liked watching Dean and Jack bond, but the episode was kind of boring. I kept waiting for something to really happen, and it just kept failing to happen. I feel bad, because the acting was really good, and I get what they were going for, but its so obvious that they will find some way to save him at the last minute, that all the hysterics and angsting about his death just seems a bit meh, especially for a whole episode. 

It was nice to see Rowena again, even if her not knowing about Jack before smells of retcon. 

Seriously, what is it with shows I like keeping villains around for way past their expiration date, just because the people behind the scenes are obsessed with the actor?!?

[flyinghigh]

21 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Does Dabb actually watch this show?

From Beat the Devil

ROWENA Shut your mouth! --Oh! You want to get inside my head, twist the knife? Two can play that game. Do you know what your grace is making possible right now? The heartfelt family reunion of Sam, Dean, Cas, Mary, and your very own son Jack. That's right. Your wee boy's over there, and he'll be so glad to see his three fathers. Of course, as far as he's concerned, they are his father. And you? You're nothing to him. Or me. Or anyone now. Nothing

Wasn't this the main plot of the entire episode?  Wasn't that just last year?

I knew there was something wrong with the scene!! How is it possible that Rowena  does't know who Jack is!! Thanks !!

btw - What will it take for the SPN writers to understand - LUCIFER STORY IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PAST EXPIRATION DATE. 

Don't care for Nick and his revenge story either!! (If it matters to anyone)

I did like Dean/Jack scenes.  I agree, it Dean's approval matters to Jack because he had to work to earn it - even if it was rushed by the  writers.

I like Jack, actually. I wish he would have some substantial story and not become like Cas - there for the sake of it. I feel sad for Cas actually. Writers don't give him a strong storyline. IMHO, anyways.

[Tony]

Loving the bromance in this episode. How awesome would it be if after they managed to heal Jack, they made Dean change teams and the two of them fell in love and became a couple?

All the fangirls would probably riot.

[7kstar]

15 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure I'm going to bother going back to watch the scenes I passed over.  I can't change the fact that TPTB won't let Lucifer die, or that they have zero respect for canon or even simple plausibility. 

I watched it but will skip over it in rewatch.  You could knock it down to five minutes of really needed to know info from those scenes.  The best scenes were with Dean and Jack and I guess now we're supposed to feel this father/ son bond.  I did wonder if the cure was a trick with the intention to do something bad like allow someone to be brought back...could see it as the doorway, not a spoiler just something that screams setup did you get it???

Most have brought up the positive about the show and I just don't care about Nick/Lucifer. 

13 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

I knew there was something wrong with the scene!! How is it possible that Rowena  does't know who Jack is!! Thanks !!

So this is a major issue when the writers Don't know their own show, yes she knew who Jack was but maybe they're saying she had never met him...stupid I know but several things about this ep is that way.  I guess if your hoping for more Lucifer then you've gotten your wish and should be the happy fans.  My issue is the story isn't building and I don't care.  I'm getting back to where I was in 6 and 7 when I really didn't watch that much.  Guess it will be easier to leave with one foot out the door.

I truly believe if you can't enjoy the show and it only gets you upset it is time to call it quits.  I'm not sure one scene is enough to keep me much longer.  So for those that are loving it, love it.  There are many shows I didn't make it to the finish line, Lost was one of them. I'll watch the 300 ep but if it doesn't change I'll have to walk away.  I've got too much negativity at work so I need to enjoy the show or it's time to leave. 

[7kstar]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:22 PM, SueB said:

Dean: ‘Who’d have thought hanging out with me would make you sentimental?’

Audience: EVERYONE Dean.  Everyone.  You are a deeply passionate man who loves without limitation.  

Dean/Jack was perfect IMO.

I can get Dean being flustered with the medical staff.  I think he was internally panicking.  

So, what’s up with the weird wobble-vision?  Clearly a phenomenon both Nick and Dean are experiencing.  Left over grace residue? SOMETHING is going on.

This was the best part of the ep and I did love Dean and Jack taking off and Dean willing to support Jack in this.  But with his vision fading out I did wonder how safe was it for either of them to be behind the wheel of the car???   My reason for it being Dean only as he would want to do the same thing if he would allow himself to say it.  Sam is still doing we can beat this and have to find a solution so it did make sense for the brothers not to be together.

 

How I wish the line what is dead should stay dead meant something but the show has made it kind of pointless.  So I do agree that why not call all the dead angels back so they can be in heaven but then that would start the war all over again...which I guess wouldn't be an issue since the writers love that storyline so much.

[Quark]

At least we had Rowena.

[BabySpinach]

Dean and Jack's relationship, ever since the latter's introduction, has been pretty consistent these past two seasons, which just makes Jack's rant about killing Michael in 14.02 feel even more out of place. Dean is the only one of the three whom Jack has consciously and consistently tried to imitate. He's sought approval from him the most. The only fun and leisurely time he's spent with his three "dads" has been with Dean. So why oh why was Jack so gung-ho about killing him as necessary collateral damage, even going so far as to say that "Dean doesn't matter"? 

These were the same writers for both 14.02 and 14.07, but Jack's feelings (or lack thereof) for Dean in these two episodes were like night and day. Unless Jack's utilitarian morality is revisited again (which seems very unlikely given his woobie sickness taking center stage), the 14.02 scene now just seems like unnecessary filler drama that didn't amount to anything and made Jack look like an unfeeling, ungrateful psychopath for no reason.

[MysteryGuest]

It didn't bother me when Jack said that they might have to kill Dean.  He wasn't wrong, and he wasn't wrong that Dean would expect them to do that.  Plus, Jack was also going through his own issues at the same time, so I didn't take it to mean that Jack didn't care about Dean.  It's was just desperate times calling for desperate measures.  It's what this show does all the time.  

Jack's looking for acceptance from Dean also isn't too surprising.  Jack received unconditional affection from both Sam and Cas right from the beginning.  Dean was the one who held back, so Dean is the one he's tried to win over.  It's sort of like when your cat is drawn to the one person in the room who hates cats.  

[trudysmom]

11 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

These were the same writers for both 14.02 and 14.07, but Jack's feelings (or lack thereof) for Dean in these two episodes were like night and day.

LOL Not only can they not respect canon, or a story established last season, they don't even remember what THEY WROTE 5 episodes ago!!!  Unbelievable.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:22 PM, SueB said:

With Lucifer (who looked like the original Terminator coming out of the Empty goo) potentially coming back (via Nick’s prayer), I’m worried the only solution is grace from Luci.

Sue, I'm back posting to say you're brilliant! You made me laugh, and then stop and think, "She nailed it!"

Thanks Old Friend

[ZennyKenny]

On 11/30/2018 at 4:34 PM, PAForrest said:

So after suffering way too much time spent on CSI: Nickifer, am I supposed to take away from this that some demon set out to kill Nick's family so ... what? So that Nick would be ready to accept Lucifer? Why him, specifically? For my money, the only thing that may have made this annoying side plot remotely enlightening, if not interesting, is if we discovered that the reason Nick was suitable for Lucifer is because he was a garden variety psychopath who actually killed his own family, and probably others, especially since in reality whenever a wife and child/children are murdered, it's 99.99991/2% likely they were killed by the husband/father.

Oooh I would have liked that storyline so much better!

[ZennyKenny]

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel bad, because I liked watching Dean and Jack bond, but the episode was kind of boring. I kept waiting for something to really happen, and it just kept failing to happen. I feel bad, because the acting was really good, and I get what they were going for, but its so obvious that they will find some way to save him at the last minute, that all the hysterics and angsting about his death just seems a bit meh, especially for a whole episode. 

I feel the same way. The Dean/Jack scenes were great, but they would have had more impact if there were more going on. With more (non-Nick) action and/or plot advancement, it would have felt like much-needed balance. Instead it felt like more filler to fill an episode (hell, season) already overstuffed with filler.

[Cattyyer]

I think it's logical that Lucifer may come back. I mean, he is the satan, the reason why all the evil in earth exist. He can't just die. 

And Lucifer probably can heal Jack.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Cattyyer said:

I think it's logical that Lucifer may come back. I mean, he is the satan, the reason why all the evil in earth exist. He can't just die. 

And Lucifer probably can heal Jack.

Until the Darkness was a thing and that fucked with all of Lucifer's continuity.  As to him healing Jack, he shouldn't have his grace anymore. I can't fathom the Empty Keeper would allow him to leave the Empty with all his grace back, I mean it is Lucifer.  Really, the best option is OG Michael's grace...but the show is completely ignoring that little detail.  If it came down to Lucifer healing Jack, the price would be too damn high and I think Jack would rather die than accept it from him.  I hope anyway.

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Sue, I'm back posting to say you're brilliant! You made me laugh, and then stop and think, "She nailed it!"

Thanks Old Friend

Good to see you back.  I have always liked reading other viewpoints as sometimes it has changed my mind, unfortunately, lately, I haven't been able to say I loved it all.

Dean fishing is a throwback to Season 4 so they are capable of using the richness of the past.  But when lines that happened last season don't seem to fit this season...why?  Who is overseeing the scripts?  Sure they can change things if they feel they wrote themselves in a corner but when it feels like they didn't even notice, that isn't good.  I should have to work so hard to care.  I wanted to like it, and some parts did make me smile, but some seemed weird as Dean and Sam not being able to come up with the cover story.  It felt like out of character and written for the sake of a few cheap laughs.

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It didn't bother me when Jack said that they might have to kill Dean.  He wasn't wrong, and he wasn't wrong that Dean would expect them to do that.  Plus, Jack was also going through his own issues at the same time, so I didn't take it to mean that Jack didn't care about Dean.  It's was just desperate times calling for desperate measures.  It's what this show does all the time.  

Jack's looking for acceptance from Dean also isn't too surprising.  Jack received unconditional affection from both Sam and Cas right from the beginning.  Dean was the one who held back, so Dean is the one he's tried to win over.  It's sort of like when your cat is drawn to the one person in the room who hates cats.  

Exactly. Jack wasn't thinking "I know! Let's kill Dean for the fun of it!" He was thinking about how to stop Michael.

 Me, I see it more as Jack realizing that Dean has grown to accept him despite everything. He earned his place in Dean's family from Dean. That has to feel good and make Jack feel really, truly as a part of the family. 

the show as a whole could do with more quiet scenes.

[trudysmom]

On second viewing (I'm trying to find something to redeem it) I heard Nick say the demon who possessed the cop that killed (?) his family was named Abraxis or Abraxas, not sure.  Looked it up and it's the name of an Egyptian god and a demon. The etymology is really interesting, and could, in the right hands, be a storyline, or at least a part of the larger story, that I would find watchable, even if Pellegrino were involved.  

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't fathom the Empty Keeper would allow him to leave the Empty with all his grace back, I mean it is Lucifer. 

There's been so much lost grace, stolen grace, killed grace (but maybe not) that it's hard for me to keep track.  In my mind the only archangel grace left is in Michael, right?  Am I missing something?  How can Lucifer still have his grace, in the empty, if it was burned out of him?  I mean Nick the meatsuit obviously survived, but how could the grace have?  But, TerminatorLuci's eyes did glow red, so who the heck knows?  

The writers of this show must have been those kids that when you played a board game with them they'd just change and make up rules to suit themselves so they'd always win.  "Never mind what I said before, I want it this way now!"  Exhausting.  A tv show shouldn't be this exhausting.

[SueB]

7 hours ago, Cattyyer said:

I think it's logical that Lucifer may come back. I mean, he is the satan, the reason why all the evil in earth exist. He can't just die. 

And Lucifer probably can heal Jack.

Plus

 

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Until the Darkness was a thing and that fucked with all of Lucifer's continuity.  As to him healing Jack, he shouldn't have his grace anymore. I can't fathom the Empty Keeper would allow him to leave the Empty with all his grace back, I mean it is Lucifer.  Really, the best option is OG Michael's grace...but the show is completely ignoring that little detail.  If it came down to Lucifer healing Jack, the price would be too damn high and I think Jack would rather die than accept it from him.  I hope anyway.

The Darkness didn't bring evil to SPN universe.  She was locked up before Chuck created it.  Now Lucifer's complaint that 'the Darkness via the Mark of Cain' made him be bad was flat out rejcted by Chuck -- he said Lucifer was always headed there.  Even if you buy partially into Lucifer's whine, he is still the 'serpeant in the garden' that caused the fall, the one who created demons, Princes of Hell, etc...  Personally, I think once that happened, there's no going back.  Evil exists forever now in the SPN universe, regardless of Satan being around. And I think the whole Free Will thing recognizes that people can choose good or evil, independent of Satan. 

In short -- I don't think his status as Satan means shit to the Empty. 

 

As for the Empty and Lucifer returning with grace (as multiple people have questioned):
1) As far as I can tell, the Empty doesn't give a shit about our existence.  He just wants his quiet black goo.  In the D&D 'alignment system' he's closer to "Neutral Chaos".  He'll do what's expedient for his quiet black goo.
2) Cas returned with SOME level of grace.  It's definitely weaksauce version (maybe due to coming back from the Empty, definitely affected by the Angel's overall looming extinction). So Lucifer would have some grace, in theory, if he came back.  

[Katy M]

I don't see why you wouldn't have the same level of grace when you come back from the Empty as when you die.  The angel didn't lose his grace, he simply died with his grace intact.  If we can assume coming back from the dead is an actual thing, I would thinking doing that would revert you to the state you were, prior to dying.  So, not only will Lucifer have his grace, he'll have the super amped up grace that he had from taking Jack's.

[MysteryGuest]

8 hours ago, Cattyyer said:

I think it's logical that Lucifer may come back. I mean, he is the satan, the reason why all the evil in earth exist. He can't just die. 

But this is Supernatural.  If God can take off for the tropics for a vacation with his sister and just turn his back on humanity, then certainly Lucifer can be killed.  Except that this is Supernatural, and apparently, no one can be killed, permanently.

Lucifer locked in the Cage with Michael was the best ending for him, and they should have just left him there.

[catrox14]

If I remember correctly the point of angel blade and the archangel blade is that it kills the angel by destroying the grace since that is the lifesource of an angel. And only God could bring back an angel, in Cas' case.

Yes.i am well aware they have screwed with Canon (and for the sake of shock value more than anything). Gadreels grace was still in Sam because he wasnt dead. Jack woke up Cas because he was super special nephilim grace.. What should have happened was having Jack, in a coma or whatever still be connected to Lucifer and it's that connection that the keeps them both from completely dying. I won't like it but it would make a lot more sense than a vessel having the power to reach the angel in the Empty.

[catrox14]

In my mind the only archangel grace left is in Michael, right?

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

 

There's been so much lost grace, stolen grace, killed grace (but maybe not) that it's hard for me to keep track.  In my mind the only archangel grace left is in Michael, right?  Am I missing something?  How can Lucifer still have his grace, in the empty, if it was burned out of him?  I mean Nick the meatsuit obviously survived, but how could the grace have?  But, TerminatorLuci's eyes did glow red, so who the heck knows?  

The writers of this show must have been those kids that when you played a board game with them they'd just change and make up rules to suit themselves so they'd always win.  "Never mind what I said before, I want it this way now!"  Exhausting.  A tv show shouldn't be this exhausting.

Both Michaels have their grace intact AFAIK.  I don't think the spear messed  AU!Michael's grace or if it did they haven't said so.   And OG Michael should have all of his own grace.  No spoilers here.  They could do the same thing Rowena did in s11 and bring him up to the Limbo Cage (that totally should be the name of a nightclub TM me). And have Dean be in his vessel if they can't get Jake Abel back to be Michael!Adam.  No spoilers just my thoughts on how they can do it.  Dean could even offer himself as his vessel and then they take it from Dean. 

[BabySpinach]

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It didn't bother me when Jack said that they might have to kill Dean.  He wasn't wrong, and he wasn't wrong that Dean would expect them to do that.  Plus, Jack was also going through his own issues at the same time, so I didn't take it to mean that Jack didn't care about Dean.  It's was just desperate times calling for desperate measures.  It's what this show does all the time.  

Jack's looking for acceptance from Dean also isn't too surprising.  Jack received unconditional affection from both Sam and Cas right from the beginning.  Dean was the one who held back, so Dean is the one he's tried to win over.  It's sort of like when your cat is drawn to the one person in the room who hates cats.  

I didn't say that Jack was wrong, I said that he came across as an ungrateful, unfeeling psychopath. Cold logic doesn't automatically make a character sympathetic just because he's right, It usually does the exact opposite, at least for me. 

Imagine if Dean had said that about any member of TFW that he had a history with/owed his life to, without a hint of self-conflict or hesitation or guilt. He would have been crucified for daring to say shit like "Cas/Sam doesn't matter!", even if his reasoning were airtight. Yet Jack gets completely excused for saying that about a lead character because he was "just being logical," even though he's supposed to be the sweetest, most caring woobie to ever exist.

Most of 14.07 was devoted to his sentimentality and feelings about life, with even Rowena falling under his spell of marshmallow purity and softness. This is not consistent with someone who would unhesitatingly kill a person they love for the "greater good," and certainly does not make for a likable character.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Most of 14.07 was devoted to his sentimentality and feelings about life, with even Rowena falling under his spell of marshmallow purity and softness. This is not consistent with someone who would unhesitatingly kill a person they love for the "greater good," and certainly does not make for a likable character.

IMO, Jack is a master manipulator.  I think he is the most forthcoming with Dean because Dean was forthcoming with him from the jump.  Everyone else he manipulates.  There was no reason for him to sweet talk Rowena because 1) Rowena already knew who he was  2) Rowena wouldn't be opposed to helping Jack because the Winchesters would owe her another one. 

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

magine if Dean had said that about any member of TFW that he had a history with/owed his life to, without a hint of self-conflict or hesitation or guilt. He would have been crucified for daring to say shit like "Cas/Sam doesn't matter!", even if his reasoning were airtight. Yet Jack gets completely excused for saying that about a lead character because he was "just being logical," even though he's supposed to be the sweetest, most caring woobie to ever exist.

Just to further illustrate your point, Dean was already raked over the coals for being unkind to and about "infant/toddler" during his grief over Cas, Mary. Never mind that Dean had an absolutely reasonable concern that Jack would be evil which was immediately condemned by Sam and is still being brought up even in this episode. No sympathy for Dean and all the sympathy for Jack here.  And Jack might be technically a year old but he came full grown and just needed to learn the ways of the world.  Jack is such a silly character when I think about it for five freaking minutes.

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Jack is a master manipulator.

Oh, if only this were true - he'd be ten times more interesting.  The character has been whitewashed to the point of Sue'ness.   I think it's even worse than what they did to Charlie.  Why writers favour this approach is beyond me. Don't they know viewers love a bad guy. They start out presenting dark and scary and then as episodes go by we get redemption upon redemption. The only character they (kind of) left alone was Crowley.  

Too much time was wasted on Three Men and a Baby Visit the Hospital and Nick's over the top violence on an innocent.  Not what I tuned in for.  Where's Michael dammit!!

[BabySpinach]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Jack is a master manipulator.  I think he is the most forthcoming with Dean because Dean was forthcoming with him from the jump.  Everyone else he manipulates.  There was no reason for him to sweet talk Rowena because 1) Rowena already knew who he was  2) Rowena wouldn't be opposed to helping Jack because the Winchesters would owe her another one. 

I wish the writers were that clever. Jack's little speech to Rowena could have plausibly been manipulation, but I'm pretty sure we're supposed to take what he said at face value. He's supposed to be irresistible, period, with no unsettling subtext underneath at all.

I made a post a long while ago where I speculated on how cool it could have been if Jack were a villain who brainwashed people into loving him. That could have been interesting, dark, and also consistent with his (deliberately) ominous behavior pre-birth. TFW would have had a hell of a time trying to fight against a Big Bad like that.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

little speech to Rowena could have plausibly been manipulation, but I'm pretty sure we're supposed to take what he said at face value. He's supposed to be irresistible, period, with no unsettling subtext underneath at all.

I think in s13 there were a couple of moments n the Kaia ep that he had evil grins and I was hopeful he was at least conflicted. But yeah you are probably right. That said, I do think he models his caregivers so I think he has awkward from Cas, straightforward and a little gruff from Dean and puppy dog eyes from Sam.

[Cattyyer]

Why did they create Amara and Chuck if they just disappeared? Chuck really needs to clean up all the mess. 

___

And will Castiel be the last angel? (14x08 promo)

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

puppy dog eyes from Sam.

haha so true!

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I didn't say that Jack was wrong, I said that he came across as an ungrateful, unfeeling psychopath. Cold logic doesn't automatically make a character sympathetic just because he's right, It usually does the exact opposite, at least for me. 

Ok.  I honestly didn't get that impression from what he said, but we all interpret things differently.  He seemed to be in panic mode to me, and I'm sure a great deal of that had to do with his own guilt feelings about not having taken out Michael and Lucifer when he had the chance.  But we can absolutely agree to disagree.

As for Lucifer, he always had more impact in smaller doses.  IMO, the current writers are not creative enough to keep him around as an interesting character.  He's either a whiny brat with daddy issues, which is boring, or he's this vicious murderer who kills everyone, except Sam and Dean.  Either way, his schtick has gotten old, and there's been way too much of the character over the past few seasons.    

5 minutes ago, Cattyyer said:

Why did they create Amara and Chuck if they just disappeared? Chuck really needs to clean up all the mess. 

This is the question for the ages!  My guess is too much crack.

[Gabitea]

1 hour ago, Cattyyer said:

Why did they create Amara and Chuck if they just disappeared? Chuck really needs to clean up all the mess. 

I think the writers put a huge weight on their shoulders when they created Amara and Chuck. God and the darkness are too powerful, so the writers don't know how to act with them. I guess that's why they just disappeared :D

Edited December 2, 2018 by Gabitea

[SueB]

Second watch thoughts -- again, ALWAYS better without commercials and I caught a great deal more. I'll post later but second watch confirmed IMO (skip to TL;DR for the Bottom Line if you don't want all the details):

1) Dean has DEFINITELY got a co-pilot (ish... more like a parasite IMO).  Dean's dizziness was, IMO, definitely a sign that Michael is actively tracking Dean and listening in.  The evidence is clear: the distortion comes twice and it sets up Michael's experiment. And yes, I'm certain that Sergei was doing Michael's bidding (point #2). 

First distortion,

Quote

ROWENA: "Jack is part archangel. He needs a much stronger force (echoing/distortion begins) and probably some kind of magic and he needs it quick."
SAM:  "How quick?" 
ROWENA: "I don't...I don't exactly know, but he's enterin' a critical phase. Sometimes he'll look just fine, but then his body will give way and... (distortion ends) it'll be the end of him." 

This sets up the basics of the experiement: archangel grace and some kind of spell.  Precisely the same kind of ingredients Michael was using to make his uber-creatures.

Second distortion is the mechanism for getting the Winchesters to perform the spell via guidance from a shaman.

Quote

SAM: "Um, he's got a line on a shaman." 
DEAN: "A shaman?"
SAM: "Yeah, the British Men of Letters use to use him as a consultant. Whenever they needed to "solve the unsolvable" - he was their guy. (echoing/distortion begins) He's an expert in mysticism -- esoteric divinity. I mean, Ketch says the Brits swore by him."
CAS: "Ketch "says".  (distortion ends)
SAM: "Yeah, his name is 'Sergei', I-I got a location."

And now Michael knows his way in.

But it's important to point out that key information is revealed when Dean is NOT getting the distortion.  Rowena's mention of Archangel comes before that moment, Sergei's location comes after the distortion.  So he's listening in all the time but these appear to be moments when he's like laser focused.  Or so intent that his control slips a bit and Dean can sense something.  

In the AU we already have the precendence that AUMichael gets insides people's heads.  It's his specialty.  He got inside Lucifer, Mary & Kevin in particular. And then we have the "residue" precedence from Gadreel.  Now mix in Abbadon's little trick of blowing smoke into people's mouth to see their memories.  Stir it all together and I think Dean is carrying a piece of Michael around.  Not Michael's entire being, but enough of a tether (like Abbadon's bit of smoke) to allow Michael to keep tabs on Dean and make moves based on what he hears.  

2) Sergei is unambiguously working for Michael.  But I think he was legit and not involved until Michael found out the Winchesters about to pay a visit. Evidence:
- When he greets Cas with the angel trap and he's nervous about who else will show up, I get being cautious but for someone who deals in this kind of stuff all the time, it was pretty agressive. I think Michael spooked him.
- Sergei's comment: "Self-preservation makes many things necessary." proves to me that Ketch's tip was actually good.  The Shaman WAS a useful person to the BMoL and while not a 'good guy', he wasn't the driver of this experiment.  He was put up to this, under threat, by Michael.
- Another Sergei comment: "Answer the unanswerable. Know the unknowable. And I am first, and foremost, a healer."  He's parotting back what Sam said earlier and then claiming to be EXACTLY what Cas needs (a healer).  And he has EXACTLY the ingredients and spell.  Right there, handy, in his little trailer.  Too convenient to not be a trap.  He's an excellent bullshit artist by trade and warms up to his 'role' while snowing over Cas, but he's anxious to get him the stuff and get past this task.
- Gabriel's grace: calling it Gabriel's grace automatically makes it feel safer to Cas.  And since Michael was in Dean's head for so long, he undoubtedly got the porn stars in Monte Carlo' story from Michael in order to embellish the backstory of the grace and make it seem legit. 
- The final conversation had two key tells:
-- Calling it an experiement .. that's SO MICHAEL
-- Victory through experimentation!  Was spoken like a quote.  But the actual quote is "Victory through extermination!" (Dr Who, the Dalek's propaganda).
Michael wants to have extermination of most humas and he's experimenting to do so.

And Michael's goal is obvious:  If a rechargable Jack is is compatible with Michael, this might give Michael another edge in the upcoming fight.  If he switched to Jack as his vessel he might the nephilim recharge as a booster.

Ultimatley, the experiment failed so that keeps Jack out of Michael's cluthes for now.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Plenty of evidence that Michael has 'bugged' Dean in order to gain access to the curent planning of TFW.  The fuzz out is likely a slip of Michael's control.  He used Sergei to set up the experiment because he fit the bill nicely as a patsy.

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by SueB

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Plenty of evidence that Michael has 'bugged' Dean in order to gain access to the curent planning of TFW.  The fuzz out is likely a slip of Michael's control.  He used Sergei to set up the experiment because he fit the bill nicely as a patsy.

 

This is very insightful and makes a lot of sense! Although if I'm being honest, I would have preferred that the experiment was a success, because I would have loved to have seen the boys have to face Michael/Jack as a nemesis. That could have been very a powerful conflict for all involved.

[ILoveReading]

If we had better writers, I'd wonder if that wasn't Dean but Michael and that was Dean fighting his way to the surface.  The scene almost looked like what someone would see if they were under water.