S04.E07: Hell No, Dolly!

[shantown]

Quoting Starfish35 from the media thread:

57 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

From TVLine’s TV Questions column today:
8 | Is it just a bit too soon for Legends of Tomorrow‘s (entertaining!) Mona to be anchoring her own B-story?

My answer: Yes.
I don't find her that entertaining, but also not enough of a known/solid character to be the ONLY named character in a plot.

[Sakura12]

They've kind of shown Gary being obsessed with Ava last season. So I think they are going with Gary being sexually fluid. They never outright said he was gay. Gary liked Constantine, now he likes Mona. If he was a virgin maybe he didn't know he liked guys until he met Constantine. He could be pansexual.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Sakura12

[Proteus]

Question. Where did Ava come up with the name Mike the Spike for the demon out of nowhere?

[Latverian Diplomat]

4 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Question. Where did Ava come up with the name Mike the Spike for the demon out of nowhere?

IIRC, he wasn't a demon but a particular type of ghost that is the spirit of a deceased, very evil person. "Mike the Spike" is a created for the show serial killer that Ava recognized from her vast memory of serial killer facts, by his choice of victims and MO, (stabbing young blondes, I think it was?).

So, "Mike" was the evil ghost of an evil serial killer Ava had heard of in the course of pursuing her hobby.

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

IIRC, he wasn't a demon but a particular type of ghost that is the spirit of a deceased, very evil person. "Mike the Spike" is a created for the show serial killer that Ava recognized from her vast memory of serial killer facts, by his choice of victims and MO, (stabbing young blondes, I think it was?).

So, "Mike" was the evil ghost of an evil serial killer Ava had heard of in the course of pursuing her hobby.

Ok, thanks.

[Maverick]

 The Stein puppet was stored in crate 309, which is the episode he was introduced in.

 I'm not into Mona, Gary's pining for her or her magical paramour.   She was ok with Ava and Nora but driving her plot?  No.

[KirkB]

When I heard Constantine was going to be a regular on the show I figured he would eat up a lot of the screen time and take it away from the other Legends and he has, but so far it hasn't been as bad as I thought. Not that I'll be sad to see him leave.

Mick isn't losing much since they rarely give him anything to do and I imagine Purcelll is just hanging around for the paycheck and the fun of it.

I'm fine with Nate being off the Waverider.

While I like the idea of a shape-shifter (my persona;l favorite super power) on the team, I'm not sure why she has to look like Amaya. Are they just trying to keep the actress around?

Sara and Ava are just so adorable. I have nothing negative to say here.

Is anyone out there a big Gary fan? On a show this goofy, why do we need comic relief? Especially when, IMO, he's not really that funny?

I like the actress playing Mona. I'm not sure why she needs this much screen time though.

I thought I would be annoyed by Legends not being part of the crossover. But on a show with a possessed puppet (and no one made a Child's Play joke either) that has one of the main cast being turned into a kitten, I don't really mind.

Edited December 8, 2018 by KirkB
English has rules.

[Ceindreadh]

On 4/12/2018 at 5:38 AM, giovannif7 said:

Love Constantine referring to Ray's awesome pornstache as a "tush-tickler"...

And I definitely felt for both Des and Constantine - sending away your love to spare them an eternity of suffering is devastating for both.

Great plug for Angela Bassett's real-world Emmy nomination for playing Marie Laveau in American Horror Story.

Nice touch with everyone literally up in the air at the end - I'm just glad we don't have to wait months to see the resolution.

Bring on the fall finale!

I thought Constantine said ‘bush tickler’ which would also work  

 

 

On 7/12/2018 at 8:57 PM, blackwing said:

I thought Gary was a gay virgin?  In the episode with the unicorn it was established he was a virgin, and they established he was gay and into Constantine.  He asked Constantine if whatever they did with/to each other took him out of the qualifications and Constantine said no.  But then Constantine seemed interested in re-exploring.

They established that Gary was into Constantine but not specifically that he was gay - and I got the impression that Constantine was going to reconnect with him at least long enough to make sure he was no longer unicorn bait. 

[Lugal]

On 12/7/2018 at 3:09 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

IRC, he wasn't a demon but a particular type of ghost that is the spirit of a deceased, very evil person. "Mike the Spike" is a created for the show serial killer that Ava recognized from her vast memory of serial killer facts, by his choice of victims and MO, (stabbing young blondes, I think it was?).

They said it was a dybbuk which is a malevolent spirit that possesses people in Jewish folklore.

[BaggythePanther]

Last season there were two references to Zari being a cat. In “Daddy Dahrkest” when Zari was attempting to bond with young Nora at the mental institution, Zari said she had a former roommate who believed she was a cat. Then in “Necromancing the Stone” after Zari had been attacked by Sara, Mick mentioned that she looked like a cat in the dryer. So I guess the writers decided to stop with references and just turn her into a cat.

 

 I’m happy Charlie has here shapeshifting powers back, but I’m curious what reason they’ll give for her staying in Amaya’s body.

 

ETA: Do we know that Constantine made the choice to save Des of his own free will? When he spoke with Marie Laveau she told him to save Des. Could she have put him under a spell?

Edited December 9, 2018 by BaggythePanther
Add an additional thought.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

ETA: Do we know that Constantine made the choice to save Des of his own free will? When he spoke with Marie Laveau she told him to save Des. Could she have put him under a spell?

We can assume that he's doing it of his own free will until something indicates otherwise.

3 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

 I’m happy Charlie has here shapeshifting powers back, but I’m curious what reason they’ll give for her staying in Amaya’s body.

She doesn't have them back, even though she can "push" against her limits.  It was clearly very hard for her to change even half her face into Constantine's.  She has Amaya's form because that's the form she was in when Constantine "lobotomized" her.  Figure she'll be in Amaya's form in the future because Maise is still a regular on the show.

9 hours ago, KirkB said:

But on a show with a possessed puppet (and no one made a Child's Play joke either)

Actually I think either Ray or Sara stated that something like "I think we have a Chucky situation."

9 hours ago, KirkB said:

While I like the idea of a shape-shifter (my persona;l favorite super power) on the team, I'm not sure why she has to look like Amaya. Are they just trying to keep the actress around?

Recall that in episode 3 she was in Amaya's form when Constantine removed (or at least greatly hampered) her shape-shifting abilities.  So, "Amaya" is now Charlie's default form.

22 hours ago, Maverick said:

 I'm not into Mona, Gary's pining for her or her magical paramour.   She was ok with Ava and Nora but driving her plot?  No.

She's not really driving the plot so much as being our viewpoint character for a subplot.  Mona is going to be our window into Project Hades, likely along with Nora.  It's sort of like how Nate and Ava are our window into the Time Bureau and the other Legends are our window onto the Waverider.

[KirkB]

15 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Recall that in episode 3 she was in Amaya's form when Constantine removed (or at least greatly hampered) her shape-shifting abilities.  So, "Amaya" is now Charlie's default form.

I may have misspoke. I get why she looks like Amaya. What I don't get is why Legends is keeping Maisie around, but not actually as Amaya. If the actress is still on the show, why did they have her play a new character? Why not continue being Amaya? Or perhaps it was Maisie herself? And is that her real accent?

 

15 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Actually I think either Ray or Sara stated that something like "I think we have a Chucky situation."

Did they? I must have missed that. I was probably laughing too hard.

Edited December 9, 2018 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, KirkB said:

What I don't get is why Legends is keeping Maisie around, but not actually as Amaya. If the actress is still on the show, why did they have her play a new character? Why not continue being Amaya?

I think they wanted to keep Maisie on the show, but had reached the limit of how long they could stretch out the “oh no my being here could erase my granddaughter(s) from existence” thing. 

22 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Actually I think either Ray or Sara stated that something like "I think we have a Chucky situation."

Sara said that, yes.

[legaleagle53]

23 minutes ago, johntfs said:

She doesn't have them back, even though she can "push" against her limits.  It was clearly very hard for her to change even half her face into Constantine's.  She has Amaya's form because that's the form she was in when Constantine "lobotomized" her.  Figure she'll be in Amaya's form in the future because Maise is still a regular on the show.

Actually, Charlie DOES have her shapeshifting powers back -- you must have missed the last five minutes of the episode.  She regained them when Constantine changed history and broke time in the process.  That's why Zari's a kitten now and everyone else is frozen in time.

And yes, that is Maisie's native accent.

Personally,  I like Charlie.  She's got a bit of sass to her that fits right in with the rest of the Legends, and she's already started bonding with them.  I think her having her full powers back will be a tremendous asset to the team.

[CTrent29]

Quote

But she's afraid of dying? And it's not happening right away? Weak. 

 

Oh please.  Charlie simply wants her shape shifting powers back.  And with it, perhaps she can find a way to evade the Legends.

[CTrent29]

On 12/7/2018 at 1:07 PM, shantown said:

Quoting Starfish35 from the media thread:

My answer: Yes.
I don't find her that entertaining, but also not enough of a known/solid character to be the ONLY named character in a plot.

My answer is . . . no.  I like Mona and I thought she had eased into the cast with no problems.  She is the Time Bureau's Ray Palmer.

[jhlipton]

On 12/3/2018 at 7:09 PM, Sakura12 said:

I liked Ava and Sara kissing before splitting up to their jobs.

On 12/3/2018 at 9:20 PM, Jediknight said:

Ava and Sara got the big damn kiss.  That was incredible.

I loved that it was set up like every action move EVER where the Hero is ready to Save the World, but comes back to His Girl for One Final Big Damn Kiss!  It's just the the Hero is Sara this time, and the Girl is also running off to Save The World.

On 12/5/2018 at 8:50 PM, VCRTracking said:

Why couldn't Constantine leave town and take a job working at a diner under a different name like any normal person who unwillingly sent their boyfriend to Hell?

Ya know, as one does.

[johntfs]

14 hours ago, KirkB said:

I may have misspoke. I get why she looks like Amaya. What I don't get is why Legends is keeping Maisie around, but not actually as Amaya. If the actress is still on the show, why did they have her play a new character? Why not continue being Amaya? Or perhaps it was Maisie herself? And is that her real accent?

LoT is keeping Maisie around because they want her to stay on the show.  However, Amaya's story had run its course, so Amaya went back to 1942 to stay.  So, Maisie is playing a new character, Charlie and she gets to use her natural accent.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:55 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

I was expecting a Beebo, too. I'd completely forgotten about the Stein doll.

I was expecting Ray's mustache to be possessed.

[tessathereaper]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:03 PM, Nogoodnamesleft said:

See I thought some how demon convinced Des that binding himself to the demon would protect John....thinking that John wouldn't send the person he loved too hell...but alas it seems may have misheard  that whole section 

That is what happened.  The demon bound himself to Des and the only way to send the demon back to hell was to send Des with him.  The demon counted on John not being to send someone he loves to Hell, but John did it.

[Bruinsfan]

Clearly Neron had not researched John Constantine's background thoroughly before making that agreement.

[KirkB]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:19 PM, Bruinsfan said:

Clearly Neron had not researched John Constantine's background thoroughly before making that agreement.

Clearly. A guy who didn't bat an eye sending a little girl to hell. If Neron had taken five minutes to look into Constantine he probably would have run away screaming.

[Miss Dee]

18 hours ago, KirkB said:

Clearly. A guy who didn't bat an eye sending a little girl to hell. If Neron had taken five minutes to look into Constantine he probably would have run away screaming.

Wait, is this a reference to Astra? I don't know a whole lot about it, but every time I've heard it talked about or hinted at in show it's with the context that John had no idea that would be the consequence and it's been torturing him ever since. Am I wrong in that assumption?

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Wait, is this a reference to Astra? I don't know a whole lot about it, but every time I've heard it talked about or hinted at in show it's with the context that John had no idea that would be the consequence and it's been torturing him ever since. Am I wrong in that assumption?

I don't think you are.  It's why John risked his life to save the one kid when the Legends went back to 1995 to stop the shtriga from killing all of the kids at that summer camp.  He even said that he was NOT going to lose another kid!

[treasaigh]

Can someone who watches the show closer than I do explain the relationship between the Legends and the Time Bureau?

They don't get paid and the government hasn't bought the ship, so what gives?

Specifically, by what authority did Ava have for taking the book away from Mick?

I always assumed it was more of a friendly working relationship, but Ava was acting as if they work for her in some way.

They Legends can just stop working for them, right?  Take their ship and go?

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, treasaigh said:

Can someone who watches the show closer than I do explain the relationship between the Legends and the Time Bureau?

They don't get paid and the government hasn't bought the ship, so what gives?

Specifically, by what authority did Ava have for taking the book away from Mick?

I always assumed it was more of a friendly working relationship, but Ava was acting as if they work for her in some way.

They Legends can just stop working for them, right?  Take their ship and go?

While Sara became the Captain, the "legal" owner of the Waverider was Rip Hunter.  When he formed the Time Bureau, he apparently transferred ownership of the Waverider to the agency.  The Legends stole the ship and when they turned Rip in for the debacle where Damien Darkh came back to life, the TB grudgingly allowed them to continue using the ship and become (unpaid) employees of the Time Bureau.  So, the government, in the form of the Time Bureau, does own and supply the ship.  Ava is the Director of the Time Bureau and as such has the authority to determine what happens to various artifacts/creatures the LoT obtains. 

And yes, the Legends can stop working for the TB at any time, but in doing so they would forfeit the privilege of using TB resources - including and especially the Waverider. 

[treasaigh]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

While Sara became the Captain, the "legal" owner of the Waverider was Rip Hunter.  When he formed the Time Bureau, he apparently transferred ownership of the Waverider to the agency.  The Legends stole the ship and when they turned Rip in for the debacle where Damien Darkh came back to life, the TB grudgingly allowed them to continue using the ship and become (unpaid) employees of the Time Bureau.  So, the government, in the form of the Time Bureau, does own and supply the ship.  Ava is the Director of the Time Bureau and as such has the authority to determine what happens to various artifacts/creatures the LoT obtains. 

And yes, the Legends can stop working for the TB at any time, but in doing so they would forfeit the privilege of using TB resources - including and especially the Waverider. 

 Can I just say that's the stupidest thing ever?  You don't give the Legends a ship.  You don't work for nothing.  

Wait.  Didn't Rip leave the ship to Sara before leaving to create the Time Bureau?  Why did he then take it back?

i can almost remember parts of that episode now that you're jogging my memory.  I should probably go back and watch it again.

[BaggythePanther]

11 hours ago, treasaigh said:

Can I just say that's the stupidest thing ever?  You don't give the Legends a ship.  You don't work for nothing.  

Wait.  Didn't Rip leave the ship to Sara before leaving to create the Time Bureau?  Why did he then take it back?

I think it’s stupid too. I had a different understanding of the situation than @johntfs, but as of “Tender is the Nate” his explanation is the only one that makes sense.

Rip did leave the ship to Sara but after the Legends broke time he disbanded the Legends and took the ship back. Then he gave it to the TB to use for practice simulations. The Legends tried being normal, but they couldn’t ignore the fact that the timeline was messed up so they stole the Waverider and have had it ever since. 

When Sara turned Rip in and the TB told the Legends they were off the hook, I never took that to mean that they were working for the Time Bureau. I thought it meant they were pardoned. The Legends have never needed money and it’s strange that it’s just coming up now, considering they’ve been on their own until now.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

When Sara turned Rip in and the TB told the Legends they were off the hook, I never took that to mean that they were working for the Time Bureau. I thought it meant they were pardoned. The Legends have never needed money and it’s strange that it’s just coming up now, considering they’ve been on their own until now.

The Legends don't need money since presumably they get what they want/need though their policy allowing "light to moderate theft."  However, presumably the Waverider needs money (or at least stuff bought with money) for supplies, repairs, fuel, etc.)

[treasaigh]

17 hours ago, johntfs said:

The Legends don't need money since presumably they get what they want/need though their policy allowing "light to moderate theft."  However, presumably the Waverider needs money (or at least stuff bought with money) for supplies, repairs, fuel, etc.)

But the "light to moderate theft" was a Waverider policy before they "joined" the Time Bureau.  I'm fairly confident that Ava would forbid theft, if she could.  

I guess I'm just thinking, this whole thing doesn't really make sense.  But you shouldn't think too much about this show I guess.  :-)

[Miss Dee]

The popular theory on Reddit is Gideon is cooking the books and squirrelling away money to get herself an android body.