My Brilliant Friend - General Discussion

[scrb]

Elena was tied to the one boyfriend to help her adjust to life at university.

But it only took reading Lila’s diaries about her life to snap out of it.  She doesn’t know how good she has it to get out of that neighborhood, away from the people she grew up with.

When she said everything about her life in Pisa was quasi, it seemed she was ready to change that, to bury the last remnants of her beginnings in Naples, as she dumped the diaries into the river.

Lila thinks she can be brutally honest, openly contemptuous of the thugs who all covet her — essentially dictate how she and her son will live.  

But she’s taking a risk with these volatile, violent men.  Above all, she’s squandered her intellect, as her old teacher reminded her.

How will she react to the new Elena, especially if she publishes a novel?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It speaks volumes that Elena read about how abusive Stefano has been to Lila and how trapped Lila is in her marriage and somehow Elena sees herself as the failure. She's college educated and living in Pisa away from her neighborhood but all she sees is that she is an almost and Lila isn't, as if being married to an abusive man you loathe who beats you and rapes you is a bigger accomplishment just because Lila is a wife and mother, rather than an almost anything. Elena really needs some perspective. Just getting out of the neighborhood was an accomplishment that Lila and their other friends and classmates hadn't achieved.

Stefano thinks he loves Lila but he is really obsessed with possessing her and controlling her. It turned my stomach to hear him keep professing his love for her while he raped her.

 

[Jamaraz]

It's curious that Elena hadn't given Lila a real thought until her mother came to visit.  She probably had those diaries in her closet for some time.  I think being lonely and being sick on top of it really brought out all of Elena's insecurities.  I also love how Elena's success is quietly giving her mother confidence in the world. It's nice to see Elena recognize her mother's growth and begin to understand why her mother doesn't want her to go back to the neighborhood.   

[scrb]

12 minutes ago, Jamaraz said:

It's curious that Elena hadn't given Lila a real thought until her mother came to visit.  She probably had those diaries in her closet for some time.  I think being lonely and being sick on top of it really brought out all of Elena's insecurities.  I also love how Elena's success is quietly giving her mother confidence in the world. It's nice to see Elena recognize her mother's growth and begin to understand why her mother doesn't want her to go back to the neighborhood.   

I think she was happy with the boyfriend and even had a circle of friends, though they may have been more his friends.

Once he left, she became more withdrawn and felt disconnected socially.  She was staring into that restaurant where other people from her university were socializing.  She felt left out.

The episode description says she's been at Pisa for 3 years.  So she has to start again, make new friends.  

Getting her degree will help with her professional prospects but she's going to need to socialize with her college mates, co-workers, new neighbors, etc.

Of course one assumes (not having read the books) that she will have a lifelong connection with Lila, even if they don't see each other for long periods of time.

 

[scrb]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It speaks volumes that Elena read about how abusive Stefano has been to Lila and how trapped Lila is in her marriage and somehow Elena sees herself as the failure. She's college educated and living in Pisa away from her neighborhood but all she sees is that she is an almost and Lila isn't, as if being married to an abusive man you loathe who beats you and rapes you is a bigger accomplishment just because Lila is a wife and mother, rather than an almost anything. Elena really needs some perspective. Just getting out of the neighborhood was an accomplishment that Lila and their other friends and classmates hadn't achieved.

Stefano thinks he loves Lila but he is really obsessed with possessing her and controlling her. It turned my stomach to hear him keep professing his love for her while he raped her.

 

I don't know if she sees Lila as necessarily being in a better situation than her.

She certainly was naive about the nature of Lila and Stefano's marriage, believed Stefano sincerely loved her and took his side after that car ride.

Then with the affair with Nino, Lenu couldn't look past the fact that Nino was suppose to be her man.  In this episode, she looks at the child and thinks he should have been hers.

She should realize by now, after reading those diaries, that Lila isn't doing great.  As much as she's in awe of Lila's brains and confidence, Elena is going to recognize like their old teacher that Lila isn't doing anything with her natural gifts.

At that time, they didn't look down on stay-at-home mothers.  Women hadn't entered the workforce in big numbers until the mid '60s -- maybe it was different in post-war Italy.  But Lenu had that epiphany about the women in the neighborhood who became mothers, how worn down their youth and beauty were as they basically became subservient to their husbands, family, etc.

In this episode, Lila's big ambition seems to be to stimulate her son, take advantage of Stefano's money to give her son a good upbringing, raise him to be a whiz kid.

However, Lila is still very young.  It may be difficult but she could try  to continue her education, though probably tougher at that time than now.  She could also try to go back to designing shoes.  As horrible as it would be to go into business with the Solaras, if she made money, she could become independent of Stefano.

Will she realize that or was the notion of women becoming financially independent from their husbands too unlikely back then?

 

[BigDfromLA]

Elena just can't pick a winner. This boyfriend came across to me as a pompous, arrogant, selfish ass. A spoiled rich kid living in a fantasy world and so full of himself. Sad that he is probably an improvement, over the jerks from her hometown. If he really loved Elena he wouldn't have been so anxious to leave, or at least he would have asked her to go with him, which he certainly didn't. Good riddence to that jackass.

Of all the assholes in this show, Stefano is the worst. I would love to see someone kick his as

[HoneyBeach]

On 4/28/2020 at 3:59 PM, BigDfromLA said:

Elena just can't pick a winner. This boyfriend came across to me as a pompous, arrogant, selfish ass. A spoiled rich kid living in a fantasy world and so full of himself. Sad that he is probably an improvement, over the jerks from her hometown. If he really loved Elena he wouldn't have been so anxious to leave, or at least he would have asked her to go with him, which he certainly didn't. Good riddence to that jackass.

Of all the assholes in this show, Stefano is the worst. I would love to see someone kick his as

I like Stefano. In my opinion, he did everything he could to make Lila happy. This was a different era. Women didn't have a lot of choices and from the choices available, Lila picked the best one. We saw how Lila's family lived.  If my fiance brought my family out of poverty, bought me a home, clothes, respected my wish to wait for marriage before having sex, I would have tried very hard to be a good wife. All this may not seem like much today, but back then, this was a big deal. Stefano is doing everything he's been taught to do to be a good husband, and his loving fiancee has turned out to be a cold, manipulative, shrew of a wife who he can't touch and doesn't want to cook or clean or work in any of their businesses.  Even with all this, he wants to stay married. He beats her and rapes her and even her own family does nothing, because this is the way things were. Lila was smarter than all of them and could have been a great business woman and grown the businesses and done what she wanted within this paradigm. She knew she could control Stefano (she told Lenu when she wanted something all she had to do was act like a whore), but she pouts and acts crazy. Is this her way of rebelling and trying to ascertain some control over her life? Probably, but it's not helpful to anyone, least of all her.  I would rather be married to Stefano than to Lila.

[scrb]

I wonder if divorce was really an option back then.

Stefano was in denial about the father of the baby.  But could he have just thrown Lila and the bay out in the street?

Certainly Lila would have an incentive to stay in the marriage, because going back home wasn't going to be much better.

Now with the baby, probably too hard to try to continue her education, even if it were an option.

Her fate appears no better than her mother's.  She showed some talent in designing shoes which made money.  But she said she no longer has the inspiration to design new ones.  But even if she did and it was a big commercial success, would the Solaras and Stefano give her money?

Certainly none to set aside so she could get away from that neighborhood.

 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Maestra Oliviero

 

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, I am a bit surprised to see Lila being such an attentive mom, Lila hated the idea of getting pregnant so much I thought that she might kind of ignore her child or feel resentful towards the baby, but she seems like a pretty good mom. Maybe its helped that the baby is Ninos? Poor kid, stuck in the middle of his parents terrible marriage. 

Its just so frustrating, Lila doesn't have to suffer so much in her married life, at least not as much as she does. Stefano, while often cruel and violent, hates and worships Lila about equal amount, and does love her in his own dysfunctional, possessive way, and if she wanted, he would probably do anything she asked him to do if she gave him even a few crumbs of affection. Its not ideal and it sucks terribly that she is stuck in this crappy relationship that she seemingly cant really leave, and its not her fault that her husband is abusive, but for this time and place, it could be easier. But Lila just hates and disdains him so much (although really, Lila disdains most people) and has so much pride, she cant even pretend. A lot of this is probably that Stefano really seems to have no clue why Lila hates him so much, or what he is even doing wrong in this relationship. From what we have seen, domestic violence is pretty normalized in their neighborhood, and most marriages are rather mercurial (husband provides, wife takes care of home/kids) even in better ones, so he feels like he isn't doing anything different than what other husbands do, and that he is keeping up his half of the bargain by giving Lila nice stuff, so why isn't she? I am also almost impressed at his level of denile about Rinos paternity. Lila straight up told him he wasn't his, and he was just like "nope, nope nope nope." 

It was nice of Elena's mom to come and see her, and that she has gained enough confidence to leave the neighborhood for a visit. I think that Elena still feels like a fraud when she thinks of Lila, that Lila is really the brilliant one who should be in college in Pisa studying for a bright future outside of their neighborhood, and that its just a fluke of fate that Lila is the one stuck in a bad marriage in the bad neighborhood, and not Elena. Also, I gotta agree with her mom, I am not loving her new haircut...

Seriously, is every guy in Italy who is not a blood relative hot for Lila?!

[humbleopinion]

Lenu ...stop your whining...nice coat, tho....

[lucindabelle]

On 4/7/2020 at 1:42 PM, Jamaraz said:.  

 

On 4/8/2020 at 10:02 AM, rlc said:

Yes, Nino told Lenu he would marry her when they were children.

Sorry I can’t seem to cut, and I’m not replying to this.

i hate Leni. She’s self absorbed. She dumps her friends notebooks that she saved since childhood into the river? How would she feel if Lila Had done that to her?

shes so busy being jealous of Lila she doesn’t realize how unhappy and tragic Lilas life has become. Even Lila being mean at the party was partly because Elena did NOT make any effort to include her.

the not good thing you can say for Elena Is that she does observe herself and tell the truth.

but all along it’s been Lila who helped others. Lila who was nothing but kind to the teacher. There’s zero evidence Lila only liked Nino to torture Elena.

i feel really bad for Lila.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

S2.E8: The Blue Fairy

Quote

Close to graduating, Elena is seized by a creative impulse that gives birth to her first novel.

Promo:

Original air date: 5/4/20

[Maysie]

On 4/30/2020 at 1:07 PM, HoneyBeach said:

In my opinion, he did everything he could to make Lila happy. This was a different era. Women didn't have a lot of choices and from the choices available, Lila picked the best one.

I know it was a different time, and men were men and women were basically servants and all that, but no, he didn't do everything he could to make Lila happy. Think back to the end of the first season, Lila seemed to really love Stefano - she actually chose him - and then he betrayed her by getting into business with the Solaras and then that was that. I know that given the time and circumstances that he wouldn't have discussed such a thing with his wife, but still, she was blindsided at her wedding with Michelle showing up in the shoes that she gave to Stefano. In her eyes he sold her out before they were even married.

 

On 5/1/2020 at 2:31 PM, tennisgurl said:

Lila doesn't have to suffer so much in her married life, at least not as much as she does. Stefano, while often cruel and violent, hates and worships Lila about equal amount, and does love her in his own dysfunctional, possessive way, and if she wanted, he would probably do anything she asked him to do if she gave him even a few crumbs of affection. Its not ideal and it sucks terribly that she is stuck in this crappy relationship that she seemingly cant really leave, and its not her fault that her husband is abusive, but for this time and place, it could be easier. But Lila just hates and disdains him so much (although really, Lila disdains most people) and has so much pride, she cant even pretend.

I'm sure that's true, but it also sounds a bit like being held captive in your own home. When you're giving your body over to anyone to avoid being beaten, that's not really giving your body - I consider that rape. And if Lila were to end up submitting to Stefano - basically lose the essence of who she is - I bet he wouldn't want her anymore.

Lila is a real interesting character. She's one of those rare people that have something that either draws or repels people. She's beautiful and intelligent, unafraid to say or do as she pleases - she's an other and everyone knows it. I think men are drawn to her because if they can "own" her, it says something about their power and their masculinity and other women seem to feel inadequate compared to her. In a way, that's had a positive effect on Lenu because it's (imo) a lot of what has motivated Lenu to keep studying and leave the neighborhood (because otherwise, Lenu would have been content to be married to Nino, or the closest thing to him).

Finally, it's a bit troubling that Stefano gets a bit of a pass because he's behaving like other guys do and Lila should be used to it since it's what she grew up with. Lila knows it's fucked up that it's always the women being beat on and the men administering the beatings. And she knows its fucked up that withholding education is another way to keep women in their place. I believe that's why she's so distant with most men and it's  why she fell for Nino - she understood that he represented a possibility of a different life and a different kind of relationship.

Now that she has a son of her own, she has a choice to make - is she going to let that "tradition" continue or what is she going to do to break that chain. Stefano was thisclose to throwing Rino's small child down a flight of steps. She needs to get out of that house.

[HoneyBeach]

2 hours ago, Maysie said:

I know it was a different time, and men were men and women were basically servants and all that, but no, he didn't do everything he could to make Lila happy. Think back to the end of the first season, Lila seemed to really love Stefano - she actually chose him - and then he betrayed her by getting into business with the Solaras and then that was that. I know that given the time and circumstances that he wouldn't have discussed such a thing with his wife, but still, she was blindsided at her wedding with Michelle showing up in the shoes that she gave to Stefano. In her eyes he sold her out before they were even married.

 

I'm sure that's true, but it also sounds a bit like being held captive in your own home. When you're giving your body over to anyone to avoid being beaten, that's not really giving your body - I consider that rape. And if Lila were to end up submitting to Stefano - basically lose the essence of who she is - I bet he wouldn't want her anymore.

Lila is a real interesting character. She's one of those rare people that have something that either draws or repels people. She's beautiful and intelligent, unafraid to say or do as she pleases - she's an other and everyone knows it. I think men are drawn to her because if they can "own" her, it says something about their power and their masculinity and other women seem to feel inadequate compared to her. In a way, that's had a positive effect on Lenu because it's (imo) a lot of what has motivated Lenu to keep studying and leave the neighborhood (because otherwise, Lenu would have been content to be married to Nino, or the closest thing to him).

Finally, it's a bit troubling that Stefano gets a bit of a pass because he's behaving like other guys do and Lila should be used to it since it's what she grew up with. Lila knows it's fucked up that it's always the women being beat on and the men administering the beatings. And she knows its fucked up that withholding education is another way to keep women in their place. I believe that's why she's so distant with most men and it's  why she fell for Nino - she understood that he represented a possibility of a different life and a different kind of relationship.

Now that she has a son of her own, she has a choice to make - is she going to let that "tradition" continue or what is she going to do to break that chain. Stefano was thisclose to throwing Rino's small child down a flight of steps. She needs to get out of that house.

In my opinion, this is the way things were. Like the moms said in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding", "the man may be the head, but the woman is the neck".  Lila could have worked with Stefano, she could control him with her body, and been very successful and probably not been beaten. I know it sounds like I'm victim-blaming, that's not what I am doing. I just think there were ways to live better even in a loveless marriage. The other women were doing it.  Maybe it's just me, but I would do what I could to make life easier.  If Stefano had a good wife, he would be a good husban.

As for throwing the baby down the stairs, Lila's own father threw her out the window and nobody thought anything of it.  I like to think Stefano would have come back to his senses and not done it.  It's his sister's baby too.  He's tired of Rino being over at his house every day instead of working at the shoe factory. Rino is useless and a big reason Lila HAD to marry someone.

[ProudMary]

9 hours ago, Maysie said:

I know it was a different time, and men were men and women were basically servants and all that, but no, he didn't do everything he could to make Lila happy. Think back to the end of the first season, Lila seemed to really love Stefano - she actually chose him - and then he betrayed her by getting into business with the Solaras and then that was that. I know that given the time and circumstances that he wouldn't have discussed such a thing with his wife, but still, she was blindsided at her wedding with Michelle showing up in the shoes that she gave to Stefano. In her eyes he sold her out before they were even married.

Not Michele; Marcello, whom Lila had repeatedly and even violently rejected multiple times. Had those shoes been on the feet of anyone but Marcello Solara, Lila and Stefano's marriage might have had a chance, but he really did betray her right from the start.

[scrb]

Elena works hard at university but still lacks confidence.  She isn't sure about her worth, even though she finishes her degree with the highest grades.

Doesn't help that she has to fight provincial attitudes, like her Latin professor who tells her that she can't cut it in academia because of her accent and a well-known family.

She had the good fortune to meet Franco who helped her adjust to life at university and then meets another young man with good family connections

She has to get out her life story, which is titled The Digression, including the "racy" part where she becomes a woman on Ischia.

She was headed to be an ordinary teacher back in her neighborhood until Pietro gets her book published.

 

Future isn't looking as promising for Lila, who's left Stefano and is losing her beauty working at that salami factory.  Unless Enzo becomes a programming whiz at Olivetti or something, she's reverted to the mean in the neighborhood.

 

So does Nino recognize from Lenu's book that it's his father whom he despises who's in the book?

He abandoned Lila and the kid but is Elena going to blow her engagement to Pietro for Nino?

 

Damn, it's going to be a long time before season 3 is out ...

 

[BigDfromLA]

What a great scene...Elena ending her long bus ride home after graduation and being reintroduced to the dump of the town she grew up in. It was interesting how the scene focused on the people . You can tell she was saddened to once again realize that her town consisted of misfits, losers, illiterates, f--k ups, idiots...after spending the previous years around dynamic, educated people. I was thinking..."she should have gone to Turin with her fiancee."

I hate Elena's short haircut. It looks awful and makes her appear 20 years older. It's a shame that she chopped off her long hair which always fit her so well.

So this episode took place in 1967. I had a hard time figuring out what year is was in the earlier episodes. So the earlier part of the season when Lila got married would have been 1963 or '64? By 1967, Lila and Elena are probably about 23 or 24, meaning they would have been born in 1943 or '44, the last year or two of WWII. The beginning of season one would have been around 1950 or '51, when Europe was still struggling to rebuild after the destruction of the war?

Edited May 5, 2020 by BigDfromLA

[ElectricBoogaloo]

During the "previously on" segment at the beginning of the show, I was reminded how much I loved the little actresses who played young Lila and young Elena so I was happy to see them in a short flashback later in the episode. They were so good!

I really felt for Elena when her professor told her she was smart and a great student but that she shouldn't try to become a professor because of her accent and her lack of social stature (and left unsaid: her gender). He may as well have patted her on the head for all his condescending and patronizing bullshit.

The look on her face when she finally went back to her town said it all: this is exactly why I stayed away so long.

I feel bad that Lila has fallen so far, but I also really feel for Enzo. The girl you're in love with is willing to live with you and help you study, but that's it. They are lucky that their neighbor loves Rino so much. I laugh every time I hear someone say his name because it reminds me of the temper tantrum that Stefano had about wanting to name him Achille.

I don't know what to say about Ada. It takes some audacity to go to your friend, tell her that you're sleeping with her husband, insult her housekeeping, and tell her that you'll kill her baby. I mean, GIRL.

Ugh, Nino. I thought we were rid of this pretentious asshat but I guess he's back.

[HoneyBeach]

I have to admit, Ada has balls. I was open-mouthed with this, but then I thought about it. Ada lives in the same neighborhood and has it even worse than Lila and Lenu. She isn't particularly smart or beautiful, she has no father, a crazy mother and younger siblings to care for and work to provide for, her older brother is no longer helpful since he now has mental issues. She has to survive too. She grabs the opportunity that Lila scorns. She wants to be with Stefano, whether for love or convenience doesn't matter, she wants to run/own the grocery stores, she wants to cook and clean for him, she wants to be with him and all the opportunity that brings for her and her family. I don't know if I can blame her.

Edited May 5, 2020 by HoneyBeach

[Mindthinkr]

I felt for Lenu when her father met her at the train and paraded her (the long way) back to their house. I think she was embarrassed. Some neighbors were happy for her and others were snickering. Some homecoming. 

[Lillith]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

I felt for Lenu when her father met her at the train and paraded her (the long way) back to their house. I think she was embarrassed. Some neighbors were happy for her and others were snickering. Some homecoming. 

I think everyone can relate to the misture of pleasure and embarrassment when your parents show you off or brag about you. Some of the neighbors certainly looked more resentful than impressed. I also noticed Lenu's parent's went heavy on the schadenfreude when discussing Lilia's predicament. 

Lenu really does have some core strength that she does not give herself credit for. She went alone to Pisa, studied hard and made top marks without any real support network. Everyone there looks down on her, her boyfriend is gone and her family is far away. I still see bad choices on the horizon for her the way she simpered at Nino's compliments. 

I'm so torn on Lila as a character. The whole she's good at everything, and beautiful, etc. etc. feels like it's layed on a bit thick. I know we are seeing her through Lenu's eyes but still. Also she's another one who makes poor choices, even with the understanding of how limited her choices were.

[humbleopinion]

Ada showed a strength of character for her unborn baby deserving of Lila's respect especially after seeing Ada's busted face.

Ada provided Lila the exit ramp to leave Stefano.

The shot of the Pisa Tower was stunning.

Season 3 can't come fast enough....I may succumb to reading the book....

[JB79]

The scene where we see the once proud Lila walk out of the freezer was so powerful, as the scene goes from Lila's tired body to Lenu's clenching hands. It was sad to see Lila like that. 

[cardigirl]

I think it is so easy to judge these characters' choices from our perch here in the 21st century with our hindsight and everything. The characters are making decisions based on their upbringing and knowledge provided them by their limited access to the outside world in post-war Italy. Our main characters were poverty-stricken young girls from poverty-stricken families and there were very few avenues of escape or survival. It shapes so much of what they choose or don't choose.

Lenu found one avenue of escape, to study and learn and improve her mind, but even so she lacks confidence. We've seen how much her mother fought against giving her special treatment. Why? Was it jealousy? Fear? In the end, she becomes her ally and encourages her to pursue her degree. She does not coddle her. She does not make it easy for her.

As brilliant as Lenu is, even her professor suggests her upbringing and background are going to hold her down.

Lila was not allowed to study and use her mind. Her value, per her family, was in her youth and desirability, and they sold her to the highest bidder. They were trying to survive. They chose a very poor way to do it. No wonder Lila has issues with enjoying life. 

Stefano is also a product of his time, in that he thinks a wife should acquiese to a husband's demands. He pursued Lila for her beauty and fire and I believe that he believes he has been a good husband in many ways, by providing well and by allowing Lila to do much of what she wishes to do. He doesn't understand her code of honor. In the end, he loses the battle to his lesser self and he lost any sympathy I had for him. I don't think he could ever understand why selling those shoes to the Solaras destroyed her so. But he is also trying to survive and build a life, and sees going into business with the Solaras as a way to do it.  That's the real difference between his point of view and Lila's.

This show is so beautifully filmed and acted.  It's been a real treat to watch.  I don't know how long we will have to wait til the next season, but I will be here for it.  

[HoneyBeach]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Stefano is also a product of his time, in that he thinks a wife should acquiese to a husband's demands. He pursued Lila for her beauty and fire and I believe that he believes he has been a good husband in many ways, by providing well and by allowing Lila to do much of what she wishes to do. He doesn't understand her code of honor. In the end, he loses the battle to his lesser self and he lost any sympathy I had for him. I don't think he could ever understand why selling those shoes to the Solaras destroyed her so. But he is also trying to survive and build a life, and sees going into business with the Solaras as a way to do it.  That's the real difference between his point of view and Lila's.

Thank you for this. I feel like a Stefano apologist. I know he's far from perfect, but for those times, he was a good pick. I think he did love Lila. When they were dating, he accepted the children of the man who is in jail for murdering his father (debateable if he did it or not) into his home to celebrate New Year's because Lila wanted it. He pulled her family out of poverty and needed to go into business with the Solaras specifically to sell her family's shoes. I know he is abusive but that is what he knows to do to "fix" Lila. I don't know what the future will bring for them, but I'm happy he has Ada and has the life he thought he would have with Lila.

[luna1122]

 I admire this show, but there's just a huge remove between me and the characters...I can't seem to love any of them. The men are so terrible, the women often not much better, and our 2 protagonists both infuriate me. Still, tho I don't love Lila, seeing her in that horrible sausage factory was dismaying, tho still preferable to watching her get raped and beaten by Stefano. And I knew, the second we saw that fire, that Lila would toss her lovely little book into the flames. But I don't seem to FEEL the love between the 2 young women like I'm supposed to. Lila has been so awful to Lenu, who just allows it...I don't know, I think they're toxic to one another. And now beautiful Nico shows back up with a stupid straggly beard, and Elena's gonna torpedo her relationship with the nice guy for him. It's all so bleak.

Stefano is a POS. Period. The end. Poor stupid Ada.

 

[HoneyBeach]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

 I admire this show, but there's just a huge remove between me and the characters...I can't seem to love any of them. The men are so terrible, the women often not much better, and our 2 protagonists both infuriate me. Still, tho I don't love Lila, seeing her in that horrible sausage factory was dismaying, tho still preferable to watching her get raped and beaten by Stefano. And I knew, the second we saw that fire, that Lila would toss her lovely little book into the flames. But I don't seem to FEEL the love between the 2 young women like I'm supposed to. Lila has been so awful to Lenu, who just allows it...I don't know, I think they're toxic to one another. And now beautiful Nico shows back up with a stupid straggly beard, and Elena's gonna torpedo her relationship with the nice guy for him. It's all so bleak.

Stefano is a POS. Period. The end. Poor stupid Ada.

 

I agree with your assessment. I can see everything you've called out. Except for the last part. Especially about Ada.  Even though she's not particularly smart, she's been the smartest one so far. She looks happy and it doesn't look like she gets beaten or raped. He beat her once that we know of because she was the side chic and came at his wife, before he knew she was pregnant. I've watched The Sopranos enough to know you never want to do this. She looks busy, fulfilled, and I'm sure Melina and her other children are taken care of too. Again, at that time, it wasn't about fairy tale marriages and what's good for "me", it was about what's good for "us".

[luna1122]

48 minutes ago, HoneyBeach said:

I agree with your assessment. I can see everything you've called out. Except for the last part. Especially about Ada.  Even though she's not particularly smart, she's been the smartest one so far. She looks happy and it doesn't look like she gets beaten or raped. He beat her once that we know of because she was the side chic and came at his wife, before he knew she was pregnant. I've watched The Sopranos enough to know you never want to do this. She looks busy, fulfilled, and I'm sure Melina and her other children are taken care of too. Again, at that time, it wasn't about fairy tale marriages and what's good for "me", it was about what's good for "us".

I just can't cut him the slack you do, just because of the times, or the culture, or whatever. He beat Ada once, I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't keep beating her any time she got mouthy or didn't have dinner on the table on time or whatever. I guess I appreciate that you're trying to see this thru an unmodern lens, but I can't do it any more than I can defend racists and slave owners and Nazis. He's perhaps a victim of his culture, but he's still a childish, violent bully. I sure don't wish him any happiness.

[marinw]

I've been following this thread for awhile, this is my first comment.

I'm impressed that Paolo Sorrentino is involved, given the delighful but bonkers Young Pope/New Pope.

Overall, I loved the portrayl of the complex relationship of love, compassion, resentment and jeaslously between these two women.

And we literally saw the sausage being made.😶

[cardigirl]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I just can't cut him the slack you do, just because of the times, or the culture, or whatever. He beat Ada once, I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't keep beating her any time she got mouthy or didn't have dinner on the table on time or whatever. I guess I appreciate that you're trying to see this thru an unmodern lens, but I can't do it any more than I can defend racists and slave owners and Nazis. He's perhaps a victim of his culture, but he's still a childish, violent bully. I sure don't wish him any happiness.

I don't cut him slack, I see him as more complex perhaps than you do. I don't like what he does, but he has also shown a vulnerable side, a desire to be loved, a desire for a family. He is incapable of getting what he thinks he wants from the woman he thinks he loves because he doesn't know any better. He turns to Ada because she is easier.  And Ada knows it. That's what she's saying to Lila when she comes over to the house. She starts cleaning and taunting her by saying "this is how you take care of someone who loves you?" when Ada would love to take care of him.   But he doesn't want Ada, except that he can have her, so he does. 

And then, as Lenu's parents were laughing about, he gets caught with "two wives and two babies."  If he were truly terrible, he would have not taken care of her or that baby. 

I'm not sure the if the show will make clear whether or not Stefano tries to help financially take care of Rino after Lila leaves him. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[VagueDisclaimer]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:57 PM, cardigirl said:

I don't cut him slack, I see him as more complex perhaps than you do. I don't like what he does, but he has also shown a vulnerable side, a desire to be loved, a desire for a family. He is incapable of getting what he thinks he wants from the woman he thinks he loves because he doesn't know any better. He turns to Ada because she is easier.  And Ada knows it. That's what she's saying to Lila when she comes over to the house. She starts cleaning and taunting her by saying "this is how you take care of someone who loves you?" when Ada would love to take care of him.   But he doesn't want Ada, except that he can have her, so he does. 

And then, as Lenu's parents were laughing about, he gets caught with "two wives and two babies."  If he were truly terrible, he would have not taken care of her or that baby. 

I'm not sure the if the show will make clear whether or not Stefano tries to help financially take care of Rino after Lila leaves him. 

Ada is willing to conform to Stefano, value what he values, be the woman he specifically wants. Men like Stefano look at women like Lila as something to break, something to win.  I’ll agree that he took Ada because she’s easier, but I don’t believe his love was so genuine or vulnerable for Lila. He wanted, he needed, he demanded, he took, he stole, he broke. None of that was love, even if he called it that as he raped Lila during that storm. Not all of the men we’ve seen force themselves on women or beat them into submission. We are shown that marked contrast in Enzo, who clearly wants something more with Lila, but doesn’t force himself on her. 

Stefano’s reputation is much more important to him and just like he has convinced himself that this proprietary hold he has on Lila is love, he convinced himself that as long as Lila didn’t say it, Gino was his and he was a successful, happy family man in his neighborhood, his businesses, etc. And look, he has the strong willed woman no one else could ever tame! So nah, I don’t  give him credit for keeping the facade going, because he benefitted from it. And with Ada, he ultimately benefited as well, after Lila left. 

I don’t think Stefano is all that complex. He’s simple and he tried to handle his life as simply as he knew how. It’s not portrayed as something the audience should be conflicted over, though, imo. The way he was filmed and lit the first time he raped Lila on their honeymoon, that rape scene during the storm while he kept telling her he loved her as he rutted away on top of Lila’s inert body, how he attacked his nephew, how Lila and Ada bonded over their bruises, these aren’t scenes meant to highlight that Stefano is just misunderstood or only a product of his time. He’s an abusive POS amongst many other abusive PsOS, sure, but it’s highlighted that these are very negative qualities that one should try to escape from. 

After this season, the only men I could even slightly root for are Pasquale, Pietro, and Enzo**, but it’s a super low bar. 
 

 

**Enzo just barely eeked by here, after not respecting her choice and bringing her back to the neighborhood and Stefano. On the other hand, he currently seems to be the most positive man Lila has ever had in her life. Again, I know, low bar lol. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by VagueDisclaimer

[HoneyBeach]

7 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Ada is willing to conform to Stefano, value what he values, be the woman he specifically wants. Men like Stefano look at women like Lila as something to break, something to win.  I’ll agree that he took Ada because she’s easier, but I don’t believe his love was so genuine or vulnerable for Lila. He wanted, he needed, he demanded, he took, he stole, he broke. None of that was love, even if he called it that as he raped Lila during that storm. Not all of the men we’ve seen force themselves on women or beat them into submission. We are shown that marked contrast in Enzo, who clearly wants something more with Lila, but doesn’t force himself on her. 

Stefano’s reputation is much more important to him and just like he has convinced himself that this proprietary hold he has on Lila is love, he convinced himself that as long as Lila didn’t say it, Gino was his and he was a successful, happy family man in his neighborhood, his businesses, etc. And look, he has the strong willed woman no one else could ever tame! So nah, I don’t  give him credit for keeping the facade going, because he benefitted from it. And with Ada, he ultimately benefited as well, after Lila left. 

I don’t think Stefano is all that complex. He’s simple and he tried to handle his life as simply as he knew how. It’s not portrayed as something the audience should be conflicted over, though, imo. The way he was filmed and lit the first time he raped Lila on their honeymoon, that rape scene during the storm while he kept telling her he loved her as he rutted away on top of Lila’s inert body, how he attacked his nephew, how Lila and Ada bonded over their bruises, these aren’t scenes meant to highlight that Stefano is just misunderstood or only a product of his time. He’s an abusive POS amongst many other abusive PsOS, sure, but it’s highlighted that these are very negative qualities that one should try to escape from. 

After this season, the only men I could even slightly root for are Pasquale, Pietro, and Enzo**, but it’s a super low bar. 
 

 

**Enzo just barely eeked by here, after not respecting her choice and bringing her back to the neighborhood and Stefano. On the other hand, he currently seems to be the most positive man Lila has ever had in her life. Again, I know, low bar lol. 

In my opinion, who wouldn't want something simple after dealing with Lila every day? In a marriage, there are always compromises to be made. I see Stefano letting her work in the grocery, in the shoe store, not at all. She could do what she wanted, within the boundaries of marriage. 

I don't see it so much as Stefano "taking" Ada, I think Ada had a lot to do with becoming involved with Stefano and improving her and her family's way of life. Lila could have worked on Stefano like Ada has done, she didn't want to.

[Rai]

Stefano still beat Ada, so it's not a matter of him being mistreated or misunderstood by the woman he's involved with. It's just how he relates to his romantic partners. And yeah, it's considered the normal way things are done in the neighborhood. But it's still wrong, and I can see Stefano being a victim of the times and attitude, but I don't have to excuse it at all.

(That said, because I'm shallow, the guy who plays Marcello is super hot, so I keep thinking "Well, would he have been as bad as Stefano, really?" And yes, he would've been, so Lila was in a no-win situation. But she didn't know what Stefano was really like. He really kept that hidden.)

I've read all the books, so I'm just enjoying this adaptation. It really is extremely well done. When I got to the end of the second book, I gasped at Nino's sudden return, and I did so again at the end of the episode, because I forgot he showed up. I think he's just another form of macho jerkface, and all his education won't change that, but he hides it even better than Stefano did.

[scrb]

I'm not sure if Stefano would have beat Lila.

Once Lila decided that she hated him, he wanted her more and really  tried to win her over.

He let her pull a knife on him and walk away, even though the Solaras are gangsters, even more so than Stefano.

He hasn't tried to seduce her again but his brother Michele, wants Lila now -- is there one male who doesn't want her?  But I think it's partly because she refused to design more shoes and also because he saw that Stefano and Lila had obvious problems.

You wouldn't think Elena's father would hit her mother but her mother did hit Elena early on, so that has to come from somewhere.  Likewise, Lila's father wasn't shown hitting her mother but the fact that he'd throw her out the window shows how easily they will resort to violence.

Nino's father isn't the hitting type either, though he's a creep otherwise.

So Stefano has to own being a wife beater, can't be blamed solely on culture.  Hell we think we're so evolved compared to the times depicted in the show.  But DV is still a big thing nowadays.

[Maysie]

On 5/4/2020 at 7:37 PM, ProudMary said:

Not Michele; Marcello, whom Lila had repeatedly and even violently rejected multiple times. Had those shoes been on the feet of anyone but Marcello Solara, Lila and Stefano's marriage might have had a chance, but he really did betray her right from the start.

Thanks for that - I always get Marcello and Michele confused - as to which is which. I think both of them and Stefano look a bit like frogs; sometimes they all look super unattractive and other times they are oddly appealing. They definitely have an interesting look to them.
 

14 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Ada is willing to conform to Stefano, value what he values, be the woman he specifically wants. Men like Stefano look at women like Lila as something to break, something to win.  I’ll agree that he took Ada because she’s easier, but I don’t believe his love was so genuine or vulnerable for Lila. He wanted, he needed, he demanded, he took, he stole, he broke. None of that was love, even if he called it that as he raped Lila during that storm. Not all of the men we’ve seen force themselves on women or beat them into submission. We are shown that marked contrast in Enzo, who clearly wants something more with Lila, but doesn’t force himself on her. 

I think that is what's going on with Stefano and both of the Solara brothers - it's more about "owning/having" Lila than actually knowing or trying to understand who she is.

I find it challenging to watch shows that aren't set in our more enlightened times simply because I do have a tendency to inflict my sensibilities onto what I'm seeing on the screen. Tolerating violence because that's just the way it was, or because it's the culture, or because it could be worse, or because someone is mouthy doesn't work for me. So I watch this and I understand that was perhaps the norm for the time and place, and therefore that it's an important part of this story, but I never think "poor Stefano, if only his stubborn wife would do what he wants he wouldn't have to beat her."

I think there's a very specific reason this story is set in the time period it is and why we're seeing the thread of the social issues of the time running through the series (the workers rights demonstrations, discussions about communism and fascism, etc) as well as how the landscape is literally changing (all the building going on in post WWII Naples). Lila and Lenu are coming of age in a really critical time in history; civil rights movements were starting to take off and we get to see how they overcome (or not) what they were born into.

I get that what was acceptable then isn't so acceptable now, and what is acceptable now may not be fifty years from now. Change doesn't come, however, if the Lilas of the world simply submit to the Stefanos.

Finally, the only saving grace about Nino is that as far as we know, he's not physically abusive. But I really dislike him too. I'm not clear that he really loved Lila, but I'm really skeptical about his feelings for Lenu.

[cardigirl]

22 hours ago, Maysie said:

I find it challenging to watch shows that aren't set in our more enlightened times simply because I do have a tendency to inflict my sensibilities onto what I'm seeing on the screen. Tolerating violence because that's just the way it was, or because it's the culture, or because it could be worse, or because someone is mouthy doesn't work for me. So I watch this and I understand that was perhaps the norm for the time and place, and therefore that it's an important part of this story, but I never think "poor Stefano, if only his stubborn wife would do what he wants he wouldn't have to beat her."

It's not that the norm was to beat one's wife, the norm was that women had very little power over their lives in post WWII era and before. And the men did too.  The entire dynamic between men and women and parents and children was completely different from what we expect from them today. 

Stefano, I think, does not start out to be the bad guy. However, his reaction to Lila's "stubborness" or disappointment in him, is not correct. When he chooses that behavior, he doesn't help his cause in any way.  Why does he choose to behave that way?  Perhaps from observing his own father abuse his mother, or other men in the village mistreat their wives that way, or because he mistakes power for love, but whatever the reason, it starts him down a path he cannot return from. He tries to give Lila what he thinks women want, a beautiful home, freedom from want, beautiful clothes, jewelry, and she taunts him by sometimes acting the role of his beautiful bride, but she never ever quite gives him the true intimacy he wants. She exerts herself to the extreme in order to lose their child during her first pregancy. When she thinks her child is from Nino, she boldly tells Stefano that the child is not his.  Stefano is shown as tender towards that child (although he does rage at someone else's child).  He is shown as a complex individual, and I like that, although I do not like him. 

I also do not like Nino.  He's another dangerous man.  He may not force himself on women, but he knows how to use honeyed words to lead them down paths that may not be in their best interests. Oh but they truly want to go down them.  If they challenge him though, watch out. 

And Nino's father, tender as he may be with all of his conquests, he leaves them in despair, when he leaves them. But do the women really have to despair? 

The discussion about having difficulty watching shows not set in our enlightened times reminds me of when I was first watching Mad Men. 

[ProudMary]

I've begun a re-watch of the first season; I'm through episodes 1 & 2. A few comments upon re-watching:

Stefano deserves sympathy from no one. It was adolescent Stefano who physically assaulted young Lila (she, around 9 years old; Stefano probably about 13) out on the street for--in his mind--making his little brother Alfonso look foolish by answering correctly when the boys were brought into the girls' classroom at school for the contest. He repeatedly slapped her in the face and also threw both Lenu and Lila to the ground when Lenu attempted to stop him from harming Lila. Adult Stefano's violent behavior is just a continuation of what he had already exhibited towards Lila as a teenager.

Also, just as a reminder: It was Enzo who hit young Lila in the head with a rock! So much for these men who "love" her.

Lastly, it was Elena whom Nino told he wanted to marry when he grew up, not Lila. He also asked her to be his girlfriend at the same time on the stairs in their (shared) apartment building. While she said nothing to him in response, she walked back into her apartment with a huge smile on her face. 
IMO, adult Nino in S3, will once again break Elena's heart as he uses her as a conduit to see if there's a way he can safely re-connect with Lila. I'm afraid that Elena will throw away what she has with Pietro. I hope I'm wrong.

[Slovenly Muse]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:35 PM, Maysie said:

I find it challenging to watch shows that aren't set in our more enlightened times simply because I do have a tendency to inflict my sensibilities onto what I'm seeing on the screen. Tolerating violence because that's just the way it was, or because it's the culture, or because it could be worse, or because someone is mouthy doesn't work for me. So I watch this and I understand that was perhaps the norm for the time and place, and therefore that it's an important part of this story, but I never think "poor Stefano, if only his stubborn wife would do what he wants he wouldn't have to beat her."

I think you're exactly right, and I think period pieces like this that incorporate violence and oppression into their stories are MEANT to be viewed through a modern lens. That's why they work. Women may not have been considered "people" throughout the entire span of human history, but the fact is that they HAVE been "people" all along. There was never a time or culture in which women were in fact naturally inferior to men, or didn't have the same intellectual/emotional capacities. Their stories have always been valuable, and their experiences always worthy of examination. Domestic violence has always been "wrong" regardless of how it was viewed at the time. What we see in the way women were treated in the past is a reflection of how well or poorly people understood that, or to what degree they were willing to acknowledge it at the cost of their own comfort and convenience. (The same is true of the treatment of minorities.)

The people in Lila's town might all see her as "deserving" whatever she gets because so few can imagine a life for women that doesn't involve submission, but through our modern lens, we can understand, and are MEANT to understand, the pain and the vast untapped human potential in Lila, and with that understanding, we can see how dismal her fate is. It is not possible to understand her story, or what this show is trying to say about her life and the power she is denied, without that modern point of view. It's not anachronistic to view a period piece through a modern lens, because to put yourself into the mindset of the period in which it's set is only to relinquish your belief that women and minorities are full people who deserve opportunity and respect, and that can only cheapen (rather than enrich) your understanding of the story and what it means for all the characters.

So, here's my radical belief: Every individual that has ever lived has always had the ability and chance to understand that women are people, because it's always been true. History is full of men who didn't beat their wives, or who treated their wives as partners rather than slaves. I don't give present-day racists or abusers a pass because "they were raised in a culture of abuse" or "they don't believe/understand that what they are doing is wrong." I don't blame "historical context" for an abuser's decision to inflict harm on another human being, even though we are living in a society today where inequality is rampant. Why would I give that pass to someone from an earlier generation?

Edited May 9, 2020 by Slovenly Muse

[scrb]

Yeah I remember that but apparently Lila forgot about it.

I think later on, the Caraccis and the Solaras appear like rivals, especially that New Years Eve battle where they were shooting guns from rooftops.

So maybe she just wanted someone who looked at the Solaras as enemies, because as we recall Marcello went to Lila's parents and got their permission to marry her but she wasn't going to have any of it.

At 13, was Stefano already a bad apple?  Or do kids learn to become bullies from their parents?  OTOH, Alfonso was gentle back then and gentle as a grownup.

So of course, the girls have zero interest in him.😄

 

 

[cardigirl]

Is it possible to be complex? To make some good choices and some bad choices and be defined by the sum of them? 

i don’t know. It’s interesting to me, that shows (and books) will present characters, in complex situations, but one is deemed the hero, and can do no wrong, and one the villain and have no worth. It’s like we can’t conceive of people having good and bad in them. 
 

 

[VagueDisclaimer]

21 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Is it possible to be complex? To make some good choices and some bad choices and be defined by the sum of them? 

i don’t know. It’s interesting to me, that shows (and books) will present characters, in complex situations, but one is deemed the hero, and can do no wrong, and one the villain and have no worth. It’s like we can’t conceive of people having good and bad in them. 
 

 

Of course it’s possible to be complex. Just look at Lenú and Lila, who are wonderfully complex characters and have the audience championing them in one moment while equally frustrated and angry with them and their actions(and inactions) in the next. There’s a knowing cruelty in many of Lila’s actions, for example, especially towards Lenú, that I cannot stand, but looking at her sincere happiness for Lenù’s success, looking at the life she’s working through at a meat factory, just to have independence and freedom, I still feel for her, I still want her to find her own success and her happiness, because at her core, she is not a cruel person, just a human being trying desperately to be in charge of her own life, her own future, and escape the oppression of her husband/family/neighborhood. 

I don’t necessarily think it’s as black and white as hero and villain, exactly, but one’s actions do speak for onesrlf. Yes, all characters are human and therefore flawed but, for example, an abuser is someone whose motivation is to denigrate, break down, possess, force. An abuser might fully believe that they are motivated by “love”, but it’s their distorted version of love and it can only exist and thrive by the abuser’s rules and perspective and at the cost of the abused and the abused’s wants and needs. That kind of action in a character, imo, defines them and no amount of backstory justifications actually justifies the actions. 

To sum up: A decent character can be complex and have shitty moments, but is still a decent character. A shitty character can be complex and have decent moments, but is still a shitty character. Redemption and change is possible, sure, but it requires effort, action, and remorse, imo. And, as the audience, it’s possible to enjoy that shitty character, I certainly have, but I also think it’s important to enjoy them as a character without trying to excuse the shitty behavior. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by VagueDisclaimer

[lucindabelle]

Lila is the heroine so far as I’m concerned.

the author tips her hand when she has Lenu toss out Lilas notebooks. Even at 19 I would never have been so heartless.

lila was downright selfless about Ada.

j feel like a lot of people make thre mistake of assuming the narrators point of view is the correct one.

Lenu has used everyone from day one. She’s using Pietro now. She likes him but is not in love with him; she wants to be part of his important family.

lila never behaved this way.

lenu never once lit up for Pietro the way she did for Nino- Nino, who knowingly abandoned pregnant Lila.

as for Enzo how did he not honor lilas wishes? She was down and out in that apartment and he persuaded her to go back. Last I checked persuasion is not coercion.

rwjext utterly the idea that lenus mother only hit her because she “must have gotten it from somewhere” meaning the husband. Women can be abusive too (although hitting a child wasn’t considered abusive.

as for the maestra - how cruel to pretend she never read the blue fairy when she did read and greatly admired it. And coming on Lila later who was struggling with James Joyce, to tell her the book was too hard.

 

 

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

To sum up: A decent character can be complex and have shitty moments, but is still a decent character. A shitty character can be complex and have decent moments, but is still a shitty character. Redemption and change is possible, sure, but it requires effort, action, and remorse, imo. And, as the audience, it’s possible to enjoy that shitty character, I certainly have, but I also think it’s important to enjoy them as a character without trying to excuse the shitty behavior. 

We will have to see if there is any redemption in the future for the "shitty" characters then. 

And I don't think I was trying to excuse anyone's bad behavior, but trying to understand characters' motivations.

[tennisgurl]

If nothing else, I am happy that Lila isn't with Stefano anymore, as hard scrabble as her life is now. I give Ada credit, her showing up to tell her friend that she was hooking up with Stafano and was basically going to take over the house and possibly kill her baby was freaking ballsy. Sleeping with your friends husband (and threatening her baby!) is certainly bad, but I feel for Ada, she has very few options, with younger siblings and a baby on the way to support, without being extremely smart or beautiful or having connections, so now her best option is a violent man like Stafano where she will at least have some financial security and a life that she can basically understand. And I dont think she would have really hurt baby Rino, even if Lila didn't just tell her that she could have Stefano. I would like to think that Ada might have a better time of it with Stefano than Lila did, as Ada is totally willing to be the submissive wife that he wants, but I doubt it will be much better, Stefano is clearly still being violent with her for whenever she does something he finds inconvenient, so its probably for the best for her that he apparently isn't around much. Maybe at one point Stefano did want to be a decent husband and father, but that time has long since past, just becoming a violent and abusive bully, even to a women who is willing to be the wife that Lila wasn't interested in being. I have no idea what the marriage between Lila and Stefano would have been like if he hadn't sold the shoes to the Solaras to get their business up and running (a choice that I could sympathize with, but Lila never could) and Lila hadn't decided she hated him after that, but considering how quickly he turned to violence, I feel like it wouldn't have gone well no matter what. Maybe it would have taken a bit longer to become abusive, but it was always probably going to end in misery. 

Its sad to see Lila at this hard job that she clearly hates, seemingly having given up on her dreams and desires, just settling for this life that she clearly finds miserable. At least she has baby Rino, who is still cute as hell.  

I really hope that Elena doesn't ditch Pietro for Nino. Pietro seems like a decent guy (although considering how most men on this show turn out, I am usually suspicious) who appreciates Elena for her mind, can help her get connections in the academic world, and has no baggage with the neighborhood, but I fear that she will be pulled back into pining away for Nino, a man who she has had feelings for since she was a kid, but is unreliable and will only hurt her. Elena might have finally escaped the old neighborhood, but these are the kinds of things that can pull her right back. 

I was feeling real second hand cringe at Elena's dad parading her around the neighborhood, with some people looking impressed or happy to see her but a lot of people looking resentful or just laughing. I also had a laugh/sad at Elena's tearful reaction to finding out that her beloved teacher died, while her mom tells her to "stop being dramatic" because she was old, and then it quickly just degenerating into her parents bickering while she goes to her room to cry alone. Poor Elena, this is why she doesn't go home very much! Well, one of several reasons. 

I loved seeing the brief glimpses of kid Lila and Elena, they were so cute! The show has a lot going on with tons of characters who kind of pop in and out of the narrative as the years past, but we always end up back with Elena and Lila and their intense and competitive but loving friendship. They are alternately resentful of each other and very close to each other, they are competitive and jealous but also supportive and are possibly the only people that know the others true worth. While the title of the show is presumably Elena ruminating on Lila and the combination of glowing admiration she has for her as well as her inferiority complex that she will never be as good as Lila and resenting her for that, I think it works for both of them about each other. They both see the other one as the one that they can never beat, but also the only one who could understand them. 

Elena's professor telling her that she could never hope to be a professor in big academic circles because of her accent and her lower class background was so infuriating. Elena can work so hard and still have people trying to tell her that her background has to define her whole life. Its so hard, she feels like she doesn't totally fit in with the wealthy intellectuals due to her lower class Naples background, but she is disconnected from her old neighborhood in Naples due to her education and ambition. 

I really like this show, the acting is so great from everyone and they do so much with recreating this time period, and its so full of nuance, I might actually have to pick up the books while we wait for our next season!

[Maysie]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:44 AM, tennisgurl said:

While the title of the show is presumably Elena ruminating on Lila and the combination of glowing admiration she has for her as well as her inferiority complex that she will never be as good as Lila and resenting her for that, I think it works for both of them about each other. They both see the other one as the one that they can never beat, but also the only one who could understand them. 

It only occurred to me during this season that the "my brilliant friend" could be either one speaking about the other. I assumed it was all about Lenu telling Lila's story, given the narration, but whatever the complexities and competition in their relationship, they each see the other as brilliant/gifted and I think it had a life-changing impact for both of them. And in telling Lila's story, Lenu is telling her own story. I believe Lenu wouldn't be nearly as driven without Lila's presence in her life, but I'm starting to believe Lenu's presence is as impactful in Lila's life.

[ShellsandCheese]

I still think Lila is the most interesting character. She drives all of the action. And yes, Lenu is the narrator. So I'm always wary of the unreliable narrator.

Also, if the story stays true to the books, it's a good thing that Stefano is taking care of Rino because:

Spoiler

Rino is actually Stefano's son not Nino's

 

[Deanie87]

On 5/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, tennisgurl said:

t was nice of Elena's mom to come and see her, and that she has gained enough confidence to leave the neighborhood for a visit. I think that Elena still feels like a fraud when she thinks of Lila, that Lila is really the brilliant one who should be in college in Pisa studying for a bright future outside of their neighborhood, and that its just a fluke of fate that Lila is the one stuck in a bad marriage in the bad neighborhood, and not Elena. Also, I gotta agree with her mom, I am not loving her new haircut...

That's what I got out of it too. She is reading Lila's journals (and tossing them into the ocean is a really, really shitty thing to do regardless), Lila's voice is in her head and while Lila is living a domestic nightmare, she is still smart, she is still stubborn and is still living with the destructive bravado that was always the core of her personality and strength. Lenu has been given all of the opportunities that Lila didn't get, but is still unsure, still lonely, still passive and still unable to really enjoy her relative good fortune. At this point it seems to me that Lenu is perusing her life in order to spite Lila in some way rather than because she actively has a passion for it. *

*I wrote this before finishing the finale and have not read further into the forum thread so as not to spoil myself. Things could change dramatically leaving but I'm not counting on it.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Deanie87

[lucindabelle]

I haven’t read books 3 & 4 but the journal tossing to me was a clear oh wait Lenu is kind of a shit isn’t she.

also Lila says flat out in the final episode of season 1 that it’s Lenu who is “my brilliant friend.”

Pietro is a nice guy but too shy and stodgy for Lenu- he wanted her to cut the sex scenes, wouldn’t sneak into her room- her kissing him first was cute but it could tip over into stuffy.

 

that said he did admit he isn’t a literary critic and did give great manuscript to his mother (who I think we saw at the reading). Which was very decent and upstanding.

damn those book readings were intense! I wonder if it’s a 60s thing. It was like a symposium, and a hostile one.