X-Men Franchise

[Dandesun]

As I recall, wasn't Charles love for Jean mentioned in one-panel in the third X-Men issue in the 60s and then forgotten about until the whole Onslaught storyline?  Still creepy as hell but this is the series that had a 19-year-old Peter dating a 13-year-old Kitty.

 

I don't remember how many times it was actually mentioned, probably not that often when it came down to it... but when you have a mentor situation and the man is looking at a 16 year old girl and internally monologueing about how he can't say these things out loud to 'the woman I love.' That's fucking creepy and it's canon. It's there... and, yes, they did bring it back for Onslaught as well they should. Jean reacting to that was appropriate... it shifted everything as well it should.

 

I mean, it's from the Golden Age period where women were tokens anyway. For God's sake, the sheer amount of sexual harassment Jean gets from almost everyone from jump (particularly Hank) is creepy as hell but, hey, it was the early 60s and there was suddenly a GIRL in an all boys school. What? No one could control their libidos!

 

Ugh. Twas a dark time.

 

As for Teen Jean, she steps over the line. A LOT. But she also only just developed the telepathy and, somehow, when she and the original five showed up there didn't seem to be any telepaths around to really take her on and deal with it. Rachel supposedly lived there but other than some one off scene where she comes back from some mission and wants to take a bath and then runs into young Jean coming out of the bathroom... they don't do anything there. Where was Elisabeth? The Trial of Jean Grey had her come face to face with Oracle who pushed her to use her powers and that's how she developed the new skill set but there was very little of anyone really teaching Jean how to use her telepathy.

 

Kitty had to sit her ass down and tell her to knock it off with the mind probes but Kitty's one of the few who seem to hold to Xavier's Dream and has a deep sense of morality. Unfortunately, Emma, Psylocke and even Rachel are totally the types to invade and control others if they feel its necessary. Charles has his faults but he did teach Jean how to control herself and taught her a great deal about using her powers ethically. I mean, is Emma Frost going to look at Teen Jean and say 'What she's doing is wrong?' I don't think so and if she does... hypocrite much?

 

Young Jean and the ethics of telepathy was, I thought, an interesting take.

 

What I continually dislike is this whole thing with the Phoenix and how "Jean never had a chance" or something. The Phoenix wasn't all bad, people seem to forget that... things WENT bad thanks to the machinations of Mastermind and... oh, who was it now? Oh yes... EMMA FROST. Rachel was the Phoenix for years and didn't go nuts. Jean took on the name and didn't go nuts and manifested the raptor and all of that. It's not the end of the world for her... it's part of her. I get annoyed that Marvel editorial has just decided that the Phoenix sucks and keeps trying to get rid of it.

[VCRTracking]

I do wonder what would be if the Dark Phoenix Saga ended not with Jean destroying herself because she was a threat to everyone but alive but having the Phoenix-Force taken from her and she was free to live her life with Scott as originally planned. Marvel editor-in-chief Jim Shooter said she had to die because she wiped out that planet, killing a billion of those asparagus-looking aliens.

Edited August 4, 2015 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

Part of that story was used for What if #32 to 33.  I think the storyline would have also involved Jean becoming a teacher for the New Mutants.

[JessePinkman]

It really annoys me that Jean has been utterly DEFINED by the Phoenix Force for a good 15 years now. For years after her first resurrection she wasn't all about Phoenix this and Phoenix that, she was able to exist and do other things and not be this cosmic running joke. But at some point someone decided that she was this idea or notion or this one storyline but not a character.

I think that happens when the people who read the books during their formative years become the writers. Look at all the crap Quesada did to Spider-Man.

I know the first thing I would do is resurrect Everett/Synch and finally hook him up with Jubilee! #GenXStan4Lyfe

[Advance35]

As for Teen Jean, she steps over the line. A LOT. But she also only just developed the telepathy and, somehow, when she and the original five showed up there didn't seem to be any telepaths around to really take her on and deal with it. Rachel supposedly lived there but other than some one off scene where she comes back from some mission and wants to take a bath and then runs into young Jean coming out of the bathroom... they don't do anything there. Where was Elisabeth? The Trial of Jean Grey had her come face to face with Oracle who pushed her to use her powers and that's how she developed the new skill set but there was very little of anyone really teaching Jean how to use her telepathy.

 

But Isn't that every telepath.   I never understood the outrage towards teen!Jean over her less then fair use of telepathy.   Emma definitely takes advantage of her powers and she trained her "Girls" to do the same thing.   We saw on panel that they had been fishing around in Jean's head and Jean didn't have any idea.   Not one lecture or outcry?!?!?!?!?!   Emma recently told Jean's she's sifted through her head looking for future "evil" and didn't find any and if she had she would have put Jean down "like a dog."   That's one thing I will say I liked about Famke Janssen's take, she seemed nothing near a den-mother.   I picture Jean with a warmth to her (I didn't see it in Famke's portrayal) but I can live without that characteristic always on display.

 

I think that's what kind of turned me against the Scott and Jean relationship in any incarnation.   Even now in the comics, Scott has been paired with Little-Female Wolverine and whatever Alien's he met in space, while other than Jean's little plot to use Hank, she get's zilch.  To the convent until summoned.   I'm hoping the new incarnation, though we know her destiny in the Movie-verse get's the chance to truly mingle as it were.

 

As for Channing Tatum's Gambit,..........I was surprised.   I thought he managed GI Joe's Duke........for the most part.   I know I cringed in one scene but JUST one.

[VCRTracking]

I was always never clear when it was sort of explained during the INFERNO storyline(probably because Claremont's dialogue was so dense for my 11 year old self) how Jean was both not the Phoenix who sacrificed herself on the moon, but still kind of was?

[Bruinsfan]

Supposedly, Madelyne Pryor received the Phoenix Jean Doppelganger's memories when it linked up with her after that "Jean's" suicide on the moon. Then when Madelyne was dying in Inferno, she was in psychic rapport with Jean trying to drag her down along with, and that's when Real Jean got all the doppelganger's memories and her link with the Phoenix. So she never actually did any of the things from X-Men #101-137, but she remembered them as if she did.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Dandesun]

Yeah... let's see... Jean was in the shuttle, dying, and the Phoenix Force comes along "it longs so to live" and puts her in a healing cocoon while it takes her form and part of her life force/psyche. Shit goes down, Phoenix kills herself on the moon and the pieces that Phoenix took seek to return to Jean's healing body in the bottom of Jamaica Bay. Jean rejects that piece because of all the darkness and star eating and planet murdering so it goes looking for another place to return to and finds... Maddie... Jean's clone and that's how Madelyne was technically born. So at the end of Inferno as Maddie is trying to die while holding onto Jean telepathically hoping to take her with her, Jean comes to terms with all of this and accepts all of them into her.

 

So ultimately, it seems to me that Jean has the memories of herself, of Phoenix as her, and Madelyne as well. Which, really, should kind of fuck her up but she holds up very well.

 

And I absolutely agree that Jean was not the Phoenix for a long time but I always liked the concept of her manifesting the raptor as part of her own powers. Through many different incarnations they seem to have settled on the idea that Jean is the ultimate host for the Phoenix Force but her own powers are such that it's not necessary to make her powerful. She is extremely powerful on her own. (Marvel wanting to boost up Emma into an Omega Level mutant to make her 'as good as' Jean is another thing that annoys me.) Claremont's initial idea for making her Phoenix was to make her a cosmic level character... which she was and can be -- I think he ended up doing that with Carol Danvers by making her Binary for awhile. (Not that her Marvel powers were lesser than by any means.)

 

In rereading the Revolution issues, Jean says that she called the Phoenix to her way back when in that shuttle so isn't she responsible for what it did in some ways? I don't know how much they recall that in dealing with the Phoenix and Jean since then but... whatever. The thing that annoys me, and I know I've said it before, is how they forget the good that Phoenix did. Hey, if Phoenix didn't fix the M'Krann Crystal that the Shi'ar Emperor was fucking around with in the first place (notice how the Shi'ar never seem to remember what D'Kenn was up to?) then there wouldn't have been a universe to eat a star in later on for everyone to get all pissed about and hold it against her until the end of time.

 

Speaking of which... exactly how many times are the Shi'ar going to put Jean on trial? They did it in the initial story when she killed herself on the moon, they slaughtered her entire family 'just in case' with no attempt to go through 'proper means' and then they kidnapped the teenaged girl from Earth to put her on trial again for something she hadn't done in her life (and can be argued she never actually did in the first place.) Stupid bird people.

[VCRTracking]

Yeah... let's see... Jean was in the shuttle, dying, and the Phoenix Force comes along "it longs so to live" and puts her in a healing cocoon while it takes her form and part of her life force/psyche. Shit goes down, Phoenix kills herself on the moon and the pieces that Phoenix took seek to return to Jean's healing body in the bottom of Jamaica Bay. Jean rejects that piece because of all the darkness and star eating and planet murdering so it goes looking for another place to return to and finds... Maddie... Jean's clone and that's how Madelyne was technically born. So at the end of Inferno as Maddie is trying to die while holding onto Jean telepathically hoping to take her with her, Jean comes to terms with all of this and accepts all of them into her.

 

So ultimately, it seems to me that Jean has the memories of herself, of Phoenix as her, and Madelyne as well. Which, really, should kind of fuck her up but she holds up very well.

 

Thanks Dandesun! I think having the Phoenix memories wouldn't be that confusing because she was in a coma while the other was walking around doing stuff in her name. Madelyne's would be more confusing because they were awake together at the same time and fought each other. Also Madelyne slept with Scott's brother Alex aka Havok, and as far as I know this was never brought up!

Speaking of which... exactly how many times are the Shi'ar going to put Jean on trial? They did it in the initial story when she killed herself on the moon, they slaughtered her entire family 'just in case' with no attempt to go through 'proper means' and then they kidnapped the teenaged girl from Earth to put her on trial again for something she hadn't done in her life (and can be argued she never actually did in the first place.) Stupid bird people.

 

 

And the Shi'ar also detonated the "nega-bomb" in the heart of the Kree empire during the Kree-Shi'ar war "Operation: Galactic Storm"(it was the early 90s) which was 20 part Avengers crossover(God, the time I spent trying to get all those issues at the time), killing BILLIONS. I know they were manipulated by the Kree leader, the Supreme Intelligence because he wanted to jump start the Kree evolution but they should still hold some responsibility. Where was their trial?

[Dandesun]

Thanks Dandesun! I think having the Phoenix memories wouldn't be that confusing because she was in a coma while the other was walking around doing stuff in her name. Madelyne's would be more confusing because they were awake together at the same time and fought each other. Also Madelyne slept with Scott's brother Alex aka Havok, and as far as I know this was never brought up!

 

Jean most likely has memories of three distinct 'first times' with Scott: as herself, as Phoenix and as Maddie although in what order is anyone's guess... the really weird part of that is... Jean's probably the one who had sex with him the last. They were kind of on their first official date when they wound up going to space and coming back in the shuttle where Jean was replaced by Phoenix. How messed up is that?!

 

These are things the fan fic writer in me thinks about. She's got three distinct entities, her own, Phoenix and Maddie, and their love for Scott which is based off of herself. When all is said and done, probably the healthiest thing for her is to move the hell on. "I just need anyone who isn't a Summers." Because, yeah, throwing Alex into that mix makes things even weirder. (Also consider the number of alternate realities where Maddie as the Goblin Queen or whatever is married to either Scott or Alex as well. And the less said about Nate Grey the better.)

[CMH1981]

What I most recall from the whole Jean/Phoenix thing was the big "psychic-rapport" that Cyclops and Jean had that is what made them super-special was in fact the Phoenix as Jean who created that rapport with Cyclops.  I'm guessing that back from the cocoon Jean probably formed a psychic rapport w/ Scott at some point off panel, but who knows...I mean I wouldn't think it would carry over from Jean apparently absorbing the memories of the Phoenix and Madlyne Pryor.  

 

I love Scott and Jean as a couple, they are synonomous in the Marvel lore with the likes of Reed/Sue and Spider-Man/Mary-Jane.  Trying to pair Jean and Logan up is just wrong.  I get that Jean has feelings for the dark/brooding/mysterious Logan, but I figure it was just lust but her love has always been with Scott.  I'm glad we are getting Old-Man Logan and teen Jean in the new Marvel Universe, b/c it seems they can't go with a pairing of those two anymore, or one would think.

[Dandesun]

What I most recall from the whole Jean/Phoenix thing was the big "psychic-rapport" that Cyclops and Jean had that is what made them super-special was in fact the Phoenix as Jean who created that rapport with Cyclops.  I'm guessing that back from the cocoon Jean probably formed a psychic rapport w/ Scott at some point off panel, but who knows...I mean I wouldn't think it would carry over from Jean apparently absorbing the memories of the Phoenix and Madlyne Pryor.  

 

I love Scott and Jean as a couple, they are synonomous in the Marvel lore with the likes of Reed/Sue and Spider-Man/Mary-Jane.  Trying to pair Jean and Logan up is just wrong.  I get that Jean has feelings for the dark/brooding/mysterious Logan, but I figure it was just lust but her love has always been with Scott.  I'm glad we are getting Old-Man Logan and teen Jean in the new Marvel Universe, b/c it seems they can't go with a pairing of those two anymore, or one would think.

 

The psychic rapport probably did carry over because Jean from the cocoon didn't have telepathy. She reverted to being only a telekinetic until, I believe, she accepted the Phoenix-Maddie memories and such.

 

I have deep fondness for Scott and Jean but she needs to have more to play with. Sue Storm has Namor and even Doom panting at her heels. Jean deserves more than Logan being a creeper on her (and Mastermind even more so whenever he may or may not be back from the dead.) And I definitely don't think it should be any of the other original five. Where's Kurt when you really need him to be dashing and charming and fun?!

[CMH1981]

I know we all know of the original fate of Jean after the Dark Phoenix Saga, the Shi'ar would have done a lobotomy of sorts on her and she would have lost her powers, then after the return to earth she and Scott would have left the X-Men together to start their normal life and her difficulty in coping w/ no powers.  To be honest I would have loved to have seen Claremont play that story out.  I would have loved to have seen Jean and Scott get married and have kids, and like someone posted upthread I would have loved to have seen Jean in a teacher role with the New Mutants.  I think we would have essentially seen Jean's powers come back little by little...things like her being angry and moving things or shattering stuff, then perhaps the telepathy would have come into play where she could start hearing other people's thoughts.  Jean would thinks perhaps she was going crazy or something.  It could all lead up to her powers coming back full force and we find out the Phoenix never left her and we could have gotten the Jean we deserved.  It would have been a great storyline I think.

[benteen]

Logan was a creeper around Jean and his love for Jean was completely one-sided during the original All-New, All-Different X-Men run.  Claremont retconned stories when he started writing Classic X-Men but Jean barely interacted with him prior to her death.  There's one issue where Logan says he has "plans" for him and Jean which is ridiculous because Jean never showed any interest in him at all.

 

From what I heard (and this story was used for a What if years later) Magneto would have offered Jean a chance to get her powers back but Jean would refuse, basically choosing her own destiny and not being a victim.  At that point, Scott and Jean would have married and had kids.  Claremont was big on the idea that you didn't stay on a team forever and eventually moved on with your life.

[Dandesun]

Absolutely, he certainly carried through with that in regards to the Mutant Massacre where Colossus, Shadowcat and Nightcrawler were all grievously injured and were taken to Muir Island. In the midst of that, they picked up Psylocke and Dazzler and, somehow, Longshot became a part of the team as well. And shortly after that, Havok joined as Polaris got corrupted by Malice and became the leader of the Marauders. What's more, they rescued Maddie and that was pretty much the team for a good stretch of time.

 

After Inferno, Maddie was gone and Claremont started picking off the characters again. Wolverine always seemed to going off to deal with shit... Storm was believed dead by Havok's blast when Nanny was trying to take her, Dazzler was actually supposed to die but I think Mark Silvestri pitched the Star '90 story to Claremont who liked it enough to keep her alive so Rogue went through the Siege Perilous instead and then Psylocke got the rest of the team to go through the Siege Perilous and that left Wolverine behind to deal with the Reavers (badly) before Jubilee saved him. And then he started focusing on the characters at Muir Island as first one of Legion's personalities and then the Shadow King started corrupting everyone there.

 

 

There's one issue where Logan says he has "plans" for him and Jean which is ridiculous because Jean never showed any interest in him at all.

 

Yeah. Total creeper. "I had plans for us Jeannie." Uh... did SHE? Logan's possessiveness regarding Jean has always pissed me off. I will never believe that relationship is anything more than Logan wanting way more than Jean ever indicated she was even interested in thinking about. Jean was always about Scott.

[CMH1981]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Logan's obsession with Jean due to that Jean look-alike, Rose, from his origin mini-series a few years past?  I know it's probably was just the writers way of showing Logan has an obsession w/ red-headed women, Rose, Jean, Heather Hudson....making it all come full circle so to speak.

 

I've always thought that Logan's feelings for Jean are just sexual in nature, a conquest he needs to prove that he can have whomever he wants and Jean's as wanting to see if the grass is greener.  I think if a writer were to finally have the two of them hookup that Wolverine would lose his interest as he finally bagged her, and Jean would finally quench that crave of wild sex.  Personally, i've always thought that Scott was the hotter guy b/t he and Logan.  Those straight-laced types are usually the fun ones.  I do wonder what Jean would think of the current Scott, the one who is the bigger badass these days in the X-Universe, the dangerous one.  Hell...even the Phoenix entity chose Scott, so what does that say.

 

In regards to Xavier's thoughts about Jean back in the beginning, I never thought of it lascivious or whatnot b/c when I first read that story, before I got into the X-Universe I thought Charles was still a young guy, perhaps in his late twenties at the time.  He was just a bald headed guy in a wheelchair.  When did we first learn that Xavier and Magneto were what, 20 or so years older than the original X-Men?

Edited August 5, 2015 by CMH1981

[VCRTracking]

 

I've always thought that Logan's feelings for Jean are just sexual in nature, a conquest he needs to prove that he can have whomever he wants and Jean's as wanting to see if the grass is greener.  I think if a writer were to finally have the two of them hookup that Wolverine would lose his interest as he finally bagged her, and Jean would finally quench that crave of wild sex. 

 

That's why I always liked that Mariko Yashida brought out a gentler side of Logan. Unfortunately it's always when Jean is conveniently out of the picture so he never gets to choose her over the other(even then he's still thinking about Jean) When Wolverine first meets Mariko in the comics, he thinks Jean died(along with The Beast) at Magneto's base in Antarctica. Then when he gets involved with her again, Jean is dead for real it seems(but it was just the Phoenix). The same thing happens in the movie The Wolverine, where Wolverine is not only grieving over Jean but is guilt-ridden because he had to kill her. Logan and Mariko had a nice relationship in the movie but unfortunately was the baby to the X-Men Last Stand bathwater that got thrown out after Days of Future Past.  It does give me hope that Logan still remembers the previous timeline and still remembers her.

 

*note*  Jean does meet Mariko in the comics in an issue of X-Factor and they both have thought balloons thinking they can see why Logan would be attracted to the other.

Edited August 5, 2015 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

Absolutely, he certainly carried through with that in regards to the Mutant Massacre where Colossus, Shadowcat and Nightcrawler were all grievously injured and were taken to Muir Island. In the midst of that, they picked up Psylocke and Dazzler and, somehow, Longshot became a part of the team as well. And shortly after that, Havok joined as Polaris got corrupted by Malice and became the leader of the Marauders. What's more, they rescued Maddie and that was pretty much the team for a good stretch of time.

 

After Inferno, Maddie was gone and Claremont started picking off the characters again. Wolverine always seemed to going off to deal with shit... Storm was believed dead by Havok's blast when Nanny was trying to take her, Dazzler was actually supposed to die but I think Mark Silvestri pitched the Star '90 story to Claremont who liked it enough to keep her alive so Rogue went through the Siege Perilous instead and then Psylocke got the rest of the team to go through the Siege Perilous and that left Wolverine behind to deal with the Reavers (badly) before Jubilee saved him. And then he started focusing on the characters at Muir Island as first one of Legion's personalities and then the Shadow King started corrupting everyone there.

 

 

Yeah. Total creeper. "I had plans for us Jeannie." Uh... did SHE? Logan's possessiveness regarding Jean has always pissed me off. I will never believe that relationship is anything more than Logan wanting way more than Jean ever indicated she was even interested in thinking about. Jean was always about Scott.

 

Yep.  Logan never said that to Jean, it was just in his thoughts but it makes him a total creep.

 

It was a Claremont retcon in Classic X-Men #1.  That series was a reprinting of old X-Men titles although this one basically had a bunch of additional scenes and a back-up story.  This back-up story has a Logan and Jean moment and Jean pretty much tells Xavier she's leaving because she has a "latent attraction" for Logan.  Which is hilarious because the first real time Logan talks to Jean in Uncanny X-Men #94, he basically says that the original X-Men should go and pretty much says "don't give me this soap opera stuff, Lady!"  Real sexual tension there....

 

I think the Logan/Jean retcon came about because Claremont was pissed off at the decision to have Scott abandon his wife and kid.  I can't blame him on that one...the birth of his son seemed to turn Scott into a raging asshole.  But I think it was more Claremont annoyance than anything.

 

Anyway, I liked Movie Mariko but Movie Yukio was even better.  I hope she returns to the X-world eventually.

[CMH1981]

 

I think the Logan/Jean retcon came about because Claremont was pissed off at the decision to have Scott abandon his wife and kid.  I can't blame him on that one...the birth of his son seemed to turn Scott into a raging asshole.  But I think it was more Claremont annoyance than anything.

 

I'm confused, b/c wouldn't the writing of Scott pre and post Nathan's birth all have been Claremont writing?  I know it was pretty much forced that X-Factor was all about getting the original X-Men back together, and that all coincided with the retcon of Jean/Phoenix in able to bring her back.  Who decided that for all this to work out that Scott would have to leave his wife and child?  If nothing else X-Factor would have been awesome with newly revived Jean dealing with Scott, his son, and his wife who was a dead ringer for herself.  They could have even had Scott fall out of love naturally with Madlyne as his feelings for Jean re-bubbled.

 

I never really noticed Scott's demeanor changing after the birth of Nathan, but we all know now that Madlyne was f-ing with his head at that point, specifically in the battle for leadership b/t Scott and Ororo.  Perhaps she was messing with him from the very begging of their encounters and she was starting to lose control and that is why the behavior change towards his family.

[benteen]

Claremont wrote Scott up until Uncanny #201.  After Nathan's birth, Scott was being an asshole but came down to Earth.  X-Factor wasn't written by Claremont and I know he was upset about Scott abandoning his family, which he did.

[JBC344]

No offense, I'm really wondering but is this thread now including talk/discussion of the comics as well?

 

It seems the beginning of this thread was about the X-Men movie universe, but then the second half seems to be a discussion about the various comics and animated shows.  Just trying to get clarification here.

[Athena]

Discussion of the comics and other forms of X-Men is allowed in this thread as it relates to the movies. You can use it for speculation as well.

 

You may also move comics-only discussion to the Comics forum which does have at least one X-Men thread. Thank you.

[ApathyMonger]

Deadpool trailer (NSFW):

 

 

Breakdown of the Deadpool trailer, in which Tim Miller says that if they do a Deadpool 2, he wants Cable in it: http://www.empireonline.com/features/deadpool-trailer-breakdown/

[Bruinsfan]

What I most recall from the whole Jean/Phoenix thing was the big "psychic-rapport" that Cyclops and Jean had that is what made them super-special was in fact the Phoenix as Jean who created that rapport with Cyclops.  I'm guessing that back from the cocoon Jean probably formed a psychic rapport w/ Scott at some point off panel, but who knows...I mean I wouldn't think it would carry over from Jean apparently absorbing the memories of the Phoenix and Madlyne Pryor. 

I recall when they restarted the X-Men book with a bazillion covers and set circulation records, the first storyline had Jean maintaining a mental link that worked even through an inhibitor field Magneto set up, and while Storm assumed it was the aforementioned psychic rapport with Scott it was actually her connection to Xavier.

 

In the movies, I don't believe the constant telepathic link plot point arose between Jean and Scott or anyone else. Logan's creepy one-sided obsession, however, survived the adaptation process in Technicolor.

[Dandesun]

Was it X-2 where Jean finally shot Logan down by saying he was pretty much a fling but Scott was the guy she could count on? And then she 'dies' at the end and I have to sit there and watch Logan emote his manpain over losing her as if it's nearly as important as Scott's loss... given that, you know, Scott was the one in an actual relationship with her.

 

Then with the end of Days of Future Past, we see Logan all gob-smacked at the sight of Jean and her extremely red hair and he starts acting like a creeper again and she's all 'what are you even doing?' right before Scott pops up and pretty much says "Dude, what are you even doing?"

 

If there's one thing I definitely want to see in Apocalypse, it's Jean and Scott getting their due without any of Logan's unrequited love bullshit getting in the way.

[VCRTracking]

And they're the same age in it as opposed to the X-Men where Famke Janssen was 9 years older than James Marsden who was only 26 at the time and looked like a boy compared to 32 year old Jackman. That was why the triangle always tipped in Logan for me and a lot of people. Interestingly when they appeared at the end of DOFP they finally looked right together. James now has some maturity and ruggedness in his face(that's not hidden behind the glasses) and Famke still looks fantastic.

Edited August 5, 2015 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

I hope Scott gets his due.  Cyclops IS the X-Men.  More than anyone else, he defines the team.  Even more so than Xavier.

[Dandesun]

I, personally, had no problem with an older Jean getting a hot, younger Scott. Go get you some of that, Jean! Also, I freaking love James Marsden so that colors my opinion a bit.

 

 

I hope Scott gets his due.  Cyclops IS the X-Men.  More than anyone else, he defines the team.  Even more so than Xavier.

 

I hope so, too. I never really bought into the "Scott's a boring boy scout" that seemed to arrive with the 90s cartoon... and probably existed beforehand as well. Scott is a good man. He's a hero. He's fallible, too. That's fine, it rounds him out some. Claremont may have decided that a man leaving his wife and child turned him into something that definitely was NOT a good guy and, at that point, wanted to rewrite history but I don't know if it's completely fair. What happened was kind of unprecedented at the time... Jean was suddenly alive after all. That's a shocker and it would have been stranger to me that he wouldn't go and see for himself. And then, after that, Sinister sent his crew after Madelyne to not just kill her but to wipe any trace of her off the map. That wasn't Scott's doing at all. And he certainly didn't behave in a carefree, oh, whatever manner while he was away either. He was pretty tortured over the whole situation.

 

Not to mention that bringing Jean back and reuniting the original five was an editorial decision anyway so why hold that against the characters? It kind of always struck me as Claremont pitching a fit that his designs for the X-Men weren't being served by what others were doing. 

 

But Scott does need to have a more important role in the movies. As does Ororo. As does Jean. When it comes down to it, Scott and Ororo are the leaders of the X-Men. Always. They've played around over the years but, ultimately, it's those two and they should be allowed their time to shine. The X-Men aren't only about Wolverine. They've done very well with establishing Charles and Erik as the friends/lovers/rivals and that's as it should be. We've got Wolverine, the rebel/lone wolf. Let's give due attention to the leaders of the X-Men: Cyclops and Storm and the one who is often considered the heart: Jean (who is also one of the most powerful beings while we're at it) It's long past time for that as well as giving some attention to characters we haven't been able to see much of at all.

 

Claremont wanting to shift the members of the team and allow people to grow and change and retire while new ones came on is actually a good thing for the movies. It allows characters to leave the franchise and new ones to get some screentime. We all know there are plenty of characters to choose from and spotlight, after all. 

[VCRTracking]

I always thought Scott was the main POV character from reading the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby stories to Roy Thomas/Neal Adams up to Claremont/Cockrum and Claremont/Byrne. The story "Elegy" solidified it. It's the Dark Phoenix Saga epilogue, is basically a long recap issue where Scott is at Jean's funeral remembering everything that happened to him and the X-Men up to that point.

[Danny Franks]

In the X-Men comics, the strongest emotion I ever got from Jean about Logan was that of pity. That she knew he was obsessed with her, and she didn't reciprocate, but she was a nice enough person to really feel bad that he felt that way about her. I don't know if she ever came across as being obliged to return his feelings, just because he felt that way, but I know plenty of readers felt she should. I imagine it would have been a massive problem for fanboys of all stripes, if Jean had ever been allowed a love interest other than Scott or Logan. Yeesh.

 

I thought Famke Janssen was a pretty bad choice to play Jean, though. She never had enough personality to get a relatively dry, serious character across in a way that resonated with the audience. Marsden was fine as Cyclops, because it's his dryness and his uptight personality that makes him stand out. It's pretty much his defining feature in the movies. I've always, always found Scott Summers boring, in the comics, too. In the 80s, 90s, 00s, he's never been interesting to me. Despite the desperation of the writers to recast him as a morally grey badass. In a group with such strong, vibrant characters, he's always been utterly dreary, and only relevant because villains used to insist there was something special about him (hi, Apocalypse and Sinister).

 

I've just watched the Deadpool trailers, and I think  I'm sold. I like Ryan Reynolds anyway, despite not being convinced he's a good leading man, and the movie looks like a lot of fun. But that Colossus looks like a rubber figurine. Not a great look for the guy. They should have stuck with the same look from X-2.

[Dandesun]

Scott's the leader. To be honest, I'm not altogether sure how I feel about him and Logan trading places on the spectrum of responsibility. Scott's all "We ARE at war!" and Logan being all "Think of the children!" Mainly, my reaction to that has been "What?"

 

I have as hard a time accepting Logan as Headmaster of the Jean Grey School as I imagine you do of Scott as the morally grey badass, Danny Franks When it comes down to it, I think I'm just completely OVER the concept of Scott and Logan and their dick measuring contest and wishing the X-Men were a damn TEAM again. 

 

The Deadpool trailer is great. I, too, like Ryan Reynolds a lot and always have. He was one of the few good things about X-Men Origins: Wolverine... until they sewed his mouth shut. I am still mystified by that decision. Also, I don't know what Colossus is doing there but... okay. Since they say they want to bring Cable into it a part of me is dying for them to explain Cable's entire existence because holy shit is that ever a mess. I always say that if you don't read comics but do understand how Cable came to be when someone explains it... you must have a history of watching soaps because the level of convoluted mayhem going in there is something that only specific media can do.

[CMH1981]

 

Scott's the leader. To be honest, I'm not altogether sure how I feel about him and Logan trading places on the spectrum of responsibility. Scott's all "We ARE at war!" and Logan being all "Think of the children!" Mainly, my reaction to that has been "What?"

 

I agree, Logan has always been in my mind as "Just point me in the direction of the nearest fight."  Yes, he has that peaceful samurai thing going on, but when it comes to battle he is your go to man, the weapon basically.

[Danny Franks]

Scott's the leader. To be honest, I'm not altogether sure how I feel about him and Logan trading places on the spectrum of responsibility. Scott's all "We ARE at war!" and Logan being all "Think of the children!" Mainly, my reaction to that has been "What?"

 

I have as hard a time accepting Logan as Headmaster of the Jean Grey School as I imagine you do of Scott as the morally grey badass, Danny Franks When it comes down to it, I think I'm just completely OVER the concept of Scott and Logan and their dick measuring contest and wishing the X-Men were a damn TEAM again. 

 

Yeah, I always figured that Logan's transformation into doting headteacher was born of necessity, rather than design. That the writers wanted this conflict between X-Men factions, and they really wanted Cyclops to be the badass tough guy that they'd always wished he was when they were kids. But belatedly realised that if Cyclops leads one faction, Wolverine has to lead the other. He's still the X-Men cash cow, after all. So they ended up with that absurd set up that never really made sense.

 

It was even dafter when they had Gambit as a teacher at the school too. As though that's something he would ever really be a good fit for. Though I did enjoy an older story Nicieza's Gambit solo book that had him teaching some of the kids how to steal, because he needed to get a videotape that a girl who had tried to seduce Gambit had sent to Rogue.

[benteen]

I've always liked Scott and I think his character was taken to the next level once he took over control of the X-Men and the mutant community.  I hope we see more of this in future movies.

 

The whole schism between Cyclops and Wolverine was contrived by editorial although I loved Jason Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men title and really enjoyed KG's Uncanny X-Men run.  I still wish we had seen what he planned to do with Scott's mutant revolution.  Years into his run, I still don't know what the hell Bendis is doing with it.

 

I agree, trying to write Cable into a movie with his backstory is going to be messy to say the least.

[Jeebus Cripes]

The Deadpool trailer is great. I, too, like Ryan Reynolds a lot and always have. He was one of the few good things about X-Men Origins: Wolverine... until they sewed his mouth shut. I am still mystified by that decision. 

 

So is Deadpool:

[Dandesun]

I had heard about that trailer and hadn't seen it yet. I'm glad they just put it out there. 'The studio that inexplicably sewed his fucking mouth shut' indeed.

 

I also like the Green Lantern burn in the other trailer. "Please don't make the super suit green! Or animated!" Hell, Reynolds got in a burn of his own during the panel when he said something along the lines of 'I've done a proper--' then cut himself off and amended it, 'I've done a super hero movie before.' It was quite pointed.

 

And kind of awesome.

[Bruinsfan]

While there wasn't much right about the Green Lantern movie (except maybe getting Angela Bassett as Amanda Waller), I'd say that casting perennial man-child Reynolds as Hal Jordan was at least as big a misstep as the crappy script and runaway CGI, so he's hardly blameless in the resulting trainwreck.

 

By contrast, casting him as Deadpool is in the same realm as casting Patrick Stewart as Professor X.

[DollEyes]

 

I didn't even watch the whole of 21 Jump Street.  Found it boring and not particularly funny. And Tatum was easily the worst thing about Stop-Loss. The less said about his turn as Channingus Tatumus in that Roman movie, the better. And for what it's worth, I don't get hung up on the Cajun accent. It's a significant part of Gambit's character but honestly, an actor having to contort his vocal chords into creating that is an actor who isn't using his full potential actually acting. I'd rather have a Gambit who is funny, roguish, irreverent and just a bit dangerous to know. I don't believe Tatum is capable of creating that character. At all.

 

 Again respectfully disagreeing. Channing Tatum's not the best actor I've ever seen by any means, but I've seen much worse than him. For one thing, I don't think he sucked in Stop-Loss and as for The Eagle, he was better than I originally expected. As for accents, I think that an actor's ability to change their voice can actually help their performance. For example, as far as I know, Colin Firth doesn't stutter IRL, but in The King's Speech, his performance as King George VI, who did stutter, won him both a Golden Globe and an Oscar for Best Actor. Then there's Meryl Streep, who's not only been nominated for Oscars 19 times, of the 3 she's won, two of them involved playing characters with accents. I believe that using accents can and do help actors in several ways. Channing Tatum has IMO proven that he can epitomize all the Gambit-based qualities you mentioned in other films. Now he just has to do it as Gambit and like I've said before, if the script and the direction are there, I think he will.

 

  Moving on,  re some of the casting choices for X-Men: Apocalypse, while I'm kind of meh on Olivia Munn & Alexandra Shipp as Psylocke & Storm, I'm thrilled about Kodi Smit-McPhee as Nightcrawler, Sophie Turner as Jean Grey & Oscar Isaac as Apocalypse. I've seen some of Smit-McPhee's & Isaac's past work and I'm impressed. Re Sophie Turner, as a Game Of Thrones fan, I think she not only looks the part, she's got the talent to back it up. But the best news of all IMO is James McAvoy & Michael Fassbender's doing more X-Men movies because I believe that Charles & Erink's relationship is the heart & soul of the X-Men universe & if they aren't involved in one way or another, then it doesn't matter, as far as I'm concerned. As long as I get my Cherik in any way, shape or form, I'm a happy camper.

 

Here's the link:http://heroichollywood.com/home-1/2015/8/3/michael-fassbender-james-mcavoy-reportedly-sign-on-for-more-x-men-films

 

  Love both Deadpool  trailers. Ryan Reynolds' willingness to mock both Green Lantern & X-Men Origins: Wolverine show that he's a very good sport.

Edited August 6, 2015 by DollEyes

[VCRTracking]

Moving on,  re some of the casting choices for X-Men: Apocalypse, while I'm kind of meh on Olivia Munn & Alexandra Shipp as Psylocke & Storm,

 

 

I don't but the way how the actor will do the way Singer is depicting Storm finally feels right as this set pic he tweeted shows:

 

[Rick Kitchen]

An X-Men TV series is coming.

[Joe]

News about Gambit, the female lead character is going to be Belladonna Boudreaux. Because that was such a great story that they just have to bring it to the screen. What with the thieves and assassins and all. Wonderful.

[Jeebus Cripes]

An X-Men TV series is coming.

 

I'm surprised it took them this long to cash in on that.

[Ariah]

So is Channing still attached to this Gambit project? I've read a while ago he dropped it (and cheered so loud they might have heard me in China).

 

Re: Scott and X-men. I must be one of these people who were extremely glad seeing the producers of X-men franchise thought the same of Cyclops as I did while reading the comics. I simply didn't like the guy (Gambit was my fav). Frankly, Scott and Jean were just too boring (but I've read the old issues with Magneto's space fortress and those with Hellfire Club and Bishop, i may not have read their best issues).

 

X-men the series would be fun, especially compared to Agents of SHIELD.

[benteen]

News about Gambit, the female lead character is going to be Belladonna Boudreaux. Because that was such a great story that they just have to bring it to the screen. What with the thieves and assassins and all. Wonderful.

 

Agreed.  Gambit as part of the X-Men was what made him interesting in the first place.  His Thieves Guild stuff is kind of a big "Who gives a shit?" aspect of the character.  Just like the best Wolverine stories are usually the ones that involve the X-Men.

 

While I can't wait for Deadpool, the idea of Fox doing a Gambit solo movie isn't promising.

Edited August 7, 2015 by benteen

[JessePinkman]

An X-Men TV series is coming.

 

An X-Men TV series makes way more sense than the movies ever will. The X-Men are a soap opera, the same handful of people fucking shit up for decades? Soap opera. It's funny, as big as movies are they're too small to properly depict the rich ideas and nuances of the X-Men universe. I'm just upset that it'll probably be on FOX.

[Dandesun]

Oh Lord... the Thieves Guild. *sigh*

 

You know, it was one thing when that was the big 'reveal' moment in the early issues of Adjectiveless X-Men. "That's my wife." Wha-aa-aaa-at? But starting out with that?

 

I mean, I get it... it's an origin story. He's not with the X-Men and his backstory is fairly solid in that they haven't dicked around with it too much. (ahem; Wolverine) It just makes me wonder how pulpy are they going to go with the whole Marvel New Orleans thing? Because it could be weirdly amazing... the idea that thieves and assassins run around in neon colors in the first place and they are, somehow, not living in the middle of Tokyo where that might actually be considered 'stealthy' is a story in and of itself. Seriously, what is even up with that? Are the X-Ternals going to brought into it? How many voodooiennes will be part of the cast?

[BetterButter]

Channing Tatum’s ‘Gambit’ Loses Director Rupert Wyatt

[Trini]

X-universe cast photo. The X-universe is very white, judging from this one photo.

[JessePinkman]

Other than Oscar and Olivia that picture is extremely white.

 

God, I hate what they've done to my favorite comic book team. The X-Men are ripe with potential but after X2 it's been nothing but hot garbage.

[SeanC]

X-universe cast photo. The X-universe is very white, judging from this one photo.

Heh, they actually took that photo back at SDCC; there's an older one with all those people plus the cast of the ill-starred Fantastic Four.

 

The younger castmembers are absent from this particular photo.  The current run of X-Men films are the strongest the franchise has ever been, to my mind (I was a fan of Singer's first two films too, but FC and DOFP took it to a new level).