S01.E07: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter

[yeswedo]

 

One of the town's residents begins to remember their fairytale past, and Storybrooke mourns the loss of one of their own. Meanwhile, in the fairytale world that was, the Evil Queen attempts to find a heartless assassin to murder Snow White.

 

Note: please use spoiler tags when referring to events that happen after this episode to allow new viewers to choose to be spoiled.

[formerlyfreedom]

When this episode originally aired, I was SO psyched that it was going to focus on Sheriff Graham! How I adored him, right from the first episode, well, except for the part where he was Regina's boy toy. I understand the episode now a lot better, with a couple more years of the show under my belt. But the foreshadowing, when he's saying how he can't feel anything to Henry, and you know now it's because he doesn't have his heart. Loved when he kissed Emma the first time, and had the flashes of the past. Was this an original TLK? And how many true loves does one person get? ;)

 

And of course, Emma and Graham were so close to happiness right there in the sheriff's office. And then it ends, and my heart was broken all over again.

 

One thing I noticed for the first time; Regina is holding the glowing heart, they cut to Graham and Emma, he collapses, and we cut back to Regina, who is blowing the dust away after apparently crushing his heart. I could have sworn we saw her actually crushing it, but this was an interesting little bit of cheating.

[stealinghome]

GRAHAM. *sniff* I found the character pretty blah until his death, and then it was really a case of "you didn't know what you had until it was gone." Simply by virtue of not trying to kill Emma, send her to jail, or bail on her, Graham was by far the best love interest she's had.

 

Also, Jamie Dornan is beautiful. I always forget until I watch Graham scenes, and then I'm just like, holy crap.

Edited June 8, 2014 by stealinghome

[retrograde]

The thing I remember most about watching this episode the first time is that it gave me a new-found respect for the show. They had a hot guy who had good chemistry with their lead actress, a whole angsty UST thing going on, and then they just killed him only seven episodes in. I wasn't following the show or fandom online at the time, but I figured Emma/Graham was probably already a popular pairing, and I thought a lot of other shows wouldn't have gone there.

 

Obviously the storyline about Regina compelling Graham to sleep with her is super problematic, and I can't believe it didn't set off more red flags in the writers room. Even if they didn't think it was rape (and it is), I'm surprised they thought it was "family-friendly" viewing. Especially at that time, I recall this show was being billed as something the whole family could sit down and watch. How do you even begin to explain that scenario to your kids? And it really wasn't especially important, plot-wise. If they wanted to demonstrate Regina's power over Graham, they could have done it in a non-sexual way and it wouldn't have changed the story significantly. (I recognize that it was supposed to elicit jealousy from Emma, which was supposed to show the audience she liked him, but I'm sure they could have done that in other ways).

 

I was disappointed that they

couldn't secure Jamie Dornan for the season 3 finale. It would've been awesome if Emma had run into him in the Enchanted Forest in the past, and I'm curious to know the writers' plans were when they were trying to make that happen. 

[Camera One]

For me, this episode still ranks in the top 3 episodes that this show has ever produced. Suddenly, they managed to make the Sheriff into a three-dimensional character who had a lot of issues to work through, plus this episode really showed how much chemistry he had with Emma. The flashback dove-tailed perfectly with the present-day story, weaving together the characters and really putting Emma on the spot to believe or not to believe, to open up or not to open up.

 

The headwriters patted themselves on the back for killing off a major character and telling a story with "stakes", but it's nothing new or special. Almost every sci-fi/fantasy/adventure series I've watched in the last 8 years have killed off characters for "shock value" and then they go on the interview circuit afterwards, they congratulate themselves on being edgy. I think it's the lazy way out a lot of the times. So a character FINALLY remembers their Enchanted Forest past, and conveniently, they get killed off, and then we can continue to keep everyone in the dark. At the end of the episode, I was so excited to see how Emma would respond in the next episode, but

that turned out to be a Rumple-centric, and Emma basically thinks Graham died of natural causes, and he has barely been mentioned again for the rest of the series, even by the characters Graham's actions touched most.  They made Regina basically murder him after taking away his free-will for decades, and we're supposed to forget about that and get behind her redemption.

 

Having said that, the pacing and the acting in this episode were superb.  If anything, it's easier to write a death episode since you have built-in emotion, and they did a good job of making Graham's backstory tragic yet tie in with the Snow White tale.  It was a stupid mistake, though, to throw away the male character Emma had the most chemistry with, but it was obvious that

if Graham had survived, they would have had no idea how to use him since he was a "good guy" and all of those end up standing with the extras in the background or six feet under.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

What I treasured about this episode is that it accelerated the show. It was a pivotal point. Putting death on the line in present day really upped the stakes. The writers had guts to kill off a character like Graham so quickly and out of the blue. I was SO glad they ended the Graham/Regina sleeping together subplot. It was utterly disgusting. The tragedy of Emma finally opening up to a guy, then him dying in her arms... it's a masterpiece.

[Amelia]

Sometimes I watch the first seven episodes and stop because I miss Graham so much and how much he drew Emma out. It's been two and a half seasons and I still rage that we really haven't seen Emma deal with him dying in her arms (or really, anyone...dealing...with...anything...). Just give the man a MENTION for crying out loud. 

 

Agree with what KingOfHearts said about this episode being pivotal to moving the story forward and Camera One about it being one of the top three episodes of the show. I also always think of this as the moment I really hated Regina. Aside from killing my hot, gorgeous tv boyfriend, she just literally had no remorse about this going forward. I know she never showed remorse before either, but something about taking those truly evil antics it to our world (aside from keeping up with the curse) brought it to a different level for me. 

[maryle]

First season had épisode like This one and show fall that really took your breath away. The strorytelling was perfect as the acting.  we really felt for Emma and Graham their hop for a happy ending before it just been Turner to dust.  

[KAOS Agent]

I remember watching this episode the first time and thinking how great it was for a mid-season finale. So much action, the plot moved forward, Emma stared to see the weirdness and should start to believe and the first time we see the truly evil side of Regina Mills not just her campy craziness as the over the top Evil Queen. Plus, they really went all in on the Evil Queen with the rape of Graham. I don't care what the writers say, I saw Regina sexually assault Graham onscreen and that is not okay ever. Just because it's a woman doing it to a man doesn't make it any less wrong or upsetting. Ripping out someone's heart, shoving him against the wall, forcibly kissing him and then telling him he's her pet and he'll do whatever she wants before ordering him to her bedchamber is all kinds of evil.

 

I think I also have more of a visceral reaction to the normal persona of Mayor Mills very cold bloodedly and remorselessly murdering Graham simply because he dumped her than I ever have when she's the Evil Queen. And this is the episode I would point the writers to when they say that Regina's bad actions occurred a long time ago and in the Enchanted Forest because no, no they didn't.  It is so sad to see Graham's story play out and for him never get any sort of justice. He just dies. 

[Amelia]

 

I think I also have more of a visceral reaction to the normal persona of Mayor Mills very cold bloodedly and remorselessly murdering Graham simply because he dumped her than I ever have when she's the Evil Queen. And this is the episode I would point the writers to when they say that Regina's bad actions occurred a long time ago and in the Enchanted Forest because no, no they didn't.  It is so sad to see Graham's story play out and for him never get any sort of justice. He just dies. 

 

Yes, KAOS! It's hard for her to be such a sympathetic character to me even two and a half seasons later because murdering Graham, and Owen's dad later on, is so much colder and crueler.

[Cindy McLennan]

I agree with everything you said about the rape, because that's what it was. I sort of love Adam and Eddy, but if/that they don't see Regina's actions (in re: Graham) as rapey means NOTHING to me.

That said, while I loved this episode (and hated it) very much, on my own, if I recall correctly, this is THE episode that brought my recaps to the attention of Adam and Eddy. If I'm remembering right, Adam retweeted my links to the recap, even though I used his surname as an euphemism for the "F" word and Eddy's surname as a euphemism for the "S" word. Recap!

[Mari]

Loved when he kissed Emma the first time, and had the flashes of the past. Was this an original TLK? And how many true loves does one person get? ;)

 

And of course, Emma and Graham were so close to happiness right there in the sheriff's office. And then it ends, and my heart was broken all over again.

I've wondered about that kiss--was it a True Love kiss, or was it just exposure to Emma, the curse-breaker?  Graham didn't have his heart, and in season one, (and in OUAT in Wonderland, too) that mattered.  If it was a True Love kiss, shouldn't it have broken the overall curse?

[Shanna Marie]

Loved when he kissed Emma the first time, and had the flashes of the past. Was this an original TLK?

I didn't get the impression that this was an actual True Love's Kiss but rather was a Savior proximity thing. Not that they might not have had the chance to develop true love if he'd lived, since they seemed to be hitting it off, but at that time, his heart was under Regina's control and Emma was a bit grossed out by having caught him sneaking out of Regina's place, so if that was "true love," the bar is set pretty low. It seemed like close proximity to the Savior who could break the curse helped weaken the effects of the curse.

 

As much as I liked this episode, it was almost the end for me, not because they killed a character I liked but because I feared the Lost effect was going to kick in and they were going to establish a pattern of devoting an episode to the character, giving us that character's backstory that made the character interesting, and then killing the character. I got tired of that pattern on Lost, to the point I stopped watching. With this episode, I went, "Here we go again," and if I'd had something going on or there had been something else on that night, I might not have watched the next episode.

[Teerose]

Unfortunately for me the fear of the Lost effect did kick in and it was the last episode I saw until "Tiny" when I tuned in to see Jorge Garcia. I was pulled in my Robert Carlyle's performance showing Rumple's fear at the airport and have been hooked ever since. If only I had held on until Skin Deep I would never have left.

[Zuleikha]

I'm watching OuaT for the first time, and I just saw this episode. I suspected it was going to be good because it has an actual thread on this board, but I need to talk about it! I really liked the pilot, but I've been frustrated with the show since because there have been no stakes for me. People's lives seem much calmer and easier in Storybrooke than in the Enchanted Forest, and while I know that Henry's right, his life seems so pleasant that his obsession with the curse has come across as bratty to me. It's made me quite team Regina because she didn't seem to be doing anything actively evil anymore... it seemed like she did her thing and was then just living her life in a place where she was no longer defined as a villain and thus had the option of a happy ending.

 

So this episode was perfectly timed to up the stakes. I get to see Regina actually be a villain. I get to see her really be cruel and horrible in the past, and get a better sense of who Snow is (Snow and Mary Margaret seemed so different prior to this point that it was hard to believe they were the same person, but in Snow's letter to the Huntsman, I saw how Mary Margaret is who Snow would be had she not had to survive such hardships--which again, doesn't exactly sell me on the urgency of returning people to the Enchanted Forest!). The flashback with Graham tied into the broader arc in a way that was very organic, and the end was completely unexpected. Also, the conversation with Graham and Mary Margaret provided a glimpse into the limits of Storybrooke and its oddities. Plus, it was just a powerful, emotional ride.

 

Still... I can't get over how awful the Enchanted Forest lives are. Regina may feel like all the good characters get their happy endings, but man, does everyone's lives just suck so far. There's a glimpse that things will briefly be okay for Snow/Charming, but their lives certainly sucked for a good long while prior to that point and Charming was on the verge of dying before the curse moved everyone into Storybrooke. I guess I'm supposed to root for Emma to break the curse, but I can't help but feel that everyone would be a lot better off staying in Storybrooke (although maybe with Regina returned to the Enchanted Forest so they can get out from under her thumb... even though I confess that I'm still Team Regina despite Graham's murder... I have a weakness for goth-looking characters who just want to be happy).

[FabulousTater]

Welcome, Zuleikha! :)
 

Still... I can't get over how awful the Enchanted Forest lives are.

Well, in defense of the Enchanted Forest, everyone's lives there sucked because Regina was hunting them down. Regina then cursed them to live Groundhog Day-esque lives where she lorded over them and they were deprived of free will, until Emma showed up in the pilot episode and put a crack in the curse and, as a result, Regina lost control over everyone. Personally, I find taking away people's free will is pretty evil, no matter how great indoor plumbing is.
 

So this episode was perfectly timed to up the stakes. I get to see Regina actually be a villain.

Killing hordes of villagers willy-nilly, executing Snow's family and friends, etc...if you don't think Regina earned the title Evil Queen, keep watching. She's got the murder count to have earned it.

YMMV, but what sold me on Regina being an evil villain was when she was trying to murder newborn Emma in the pilot episode. I know it's subjective, but I have intense loathing for people who kill children let alone attempt to murder helpless newborns.
 
Welcome to the forum though, and WOW you've got some catching up to do...Good luck! :)

Edited October 27, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Zuleikha]

I know... it is really weird to be so far behind in a show! I watched the Mr. Gold/sheriff competition episode, though, and once again life in the Enchanted Forest looked horrible. Regina hasn't had anything to do with how bad Ella's, Jiminy's, Rumple's, and aspects of Charming's life were (i.e. the forced impersonation of his brother and engagement to Midas's daughter were because of Rumple not Regina). She seems to only be responsible for Snow's misery. 

 

I agree that taking away free will is not an acceptable trade off for indoor plumbing, but it's not clear to me at this point that Regina's done that. Maybe all of this gets cleared up later, but so far it seems like she set up certain parameters for Storybrooke but that within them, people do have free will. Graham's something of a special case because she had his heart locked away, but even with Graham, it didn't seem like he minded being with Regina (possibly because she had his heart locked away so he didn't feel anything) until Emma appeared and he fell for Emma. 

[KAOS Agent]

I think you're missing the point that time was not moving until Emma showed up in town. Until then no one had free will, which is why Graham didn't pull away from Regina until Emma arrived. It wasn't so much that he wanted Emma, it was that time started moving and he was able to realize that he hated what he was doing and Regina was the problem. What you're seeing play out on screen each episode is people who are just now starting to break free of the curse. Archie stood up to Regina and did what was best for Henry, Ashley stood up for herself and kept her baby with an assist from Emma. Emma is giving them the opportunity to regain their happy endings. Ashley's happy ending had already happened in the Enchanted Forest, she was a princess and living well. Regina took that away with her curse. Instead she was a pregnant teen working as a maid. On top of that, think about how she was nine months pregnant for 28 years, so hell yeah Regina had a lot to do with her suffering.

 

I know that in the early episodes much of the stuff was focused on Rumpel in the fairybacks, but the point of these stories is to show how they generally got their happy ending in the past and you see how that was taken away in the present. Who they were in the Enchanted Forest is not who they are in their cursed persona. Red & Granny are at each other's throats, Archie is not following his conscience and allowing Regina to dictate his actions even though they may be harmful, Geppetto is a lonely old man who does not have a son, David is a massive wishy-washy jackass, Snow White is a meek and lonely woman, etc.

 

I don't think it's a spoiler to say that if you're waiting to see exactly what pre-Emma Storybrooke was like, you've got about 30 more episodes to go before you get there.

[Camera One]

Welcome to the forum.  Unfortunately, there are only threads for episodes which were rewatched this summer.  So 18 select episodes from the first 3 seasons.  The next episode with a thread in Season 1 Episode 18.  If you really want to discuss an episode, maybe you could message the moderator to start a thread for that particular episode, and we can try to join in.

 

It will be interesting to see how your feelings about the characters and the show evolves over the seasons.  

 

I think in this first stretch of episodes, I did see Regina as a villain in Storybrooke because she was playing with the lives of people whose memories the Curse erased.  So Mary Margaret and David couldn't even remember each other, while Regina brought in Kathryn with a gleeful smile in Episode 3.  The Curse trapped these people in an existence without the people they cared about the most and without their defining characteristics, as KAOS Agent said.

 

I do agree that life in the Enchanted Forest was tough.  Though without one's memories and one's friends and family, life in Storybrooke was empty for many of these Fairy Tale folk, maybe not physically with the modern conveniences, but emotionally and psychologically.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

I agree with everything KAOS Agent posted above and add the following:

In terms of the life of the peasants, the show does touch upon this a tiny bit, later in the series. I won't spoil anything with details, but in terms of what the general line of thought is on the matter you can read the spoiler below (it's not really spoiler-y, but in case you want to remain totally and completely unspoiled I've wrapped it in a spoiler tag):
 

The way that it's explained later on in the show is that despite the fact that these people led very basic and rustic lives, The Enchanted Forest is nonetheless home to them. It is their motherland and where they're from, and hence not unlike emigrants who have been forced to flee their mother country and yet yearn to return home. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Zuleikha]

I feel like this discussion is verging off 1-7, but I'm not sure where it should go instead. I think what you guys are seeing with me is a reminder of how unclearly the show established the rules of Storybrooke in the beginning of S1. I can't remember exactly what Henry told Emma in the pilot, but it was something about the clock not moving, people not aging, the town not letting anyone leave, and people having fuzzy memories. It didn't sound as rigid as Groundhog's Day, especially because Mary Margaret talked about the change of giving Henry the book. So what I understood the curse to have done was to have rewritten people's pasts and kept them in a state where they couldn't age or make any big changes to their circumstances, but not to actually be making them relive the same day over and over. 

 

I disagree with the writer's choice to keep things so mysterious. Since as a viewer I already know Henry's right, there doesn't seem anything gained by keeping Emma in the dark and occluding how severe the curse is. I'm just getting impatient for Emma to conclusively know that Henry's not imaginative or deluded but that there is a real curse. 

 

Ashley didn't have a happy ending in the Enchanted Forest, though. Her baby had been threatened by Rumplestiltskin and to get out of it, she and her prince (Shawn?) struck a deal with the Blue Fairy resulting in him disappearing as the price of the magic to imprison Rumpelstiltskin. Maybe in a later episode that's straightened out, but where I'm at, the happiest ending is Jiminy becoming a cricket after a truly awful seeming life. Which is not really so happy. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

I think what you guys are seeing with me is a reminder of how unclearly the show established the rules of Storybrooke in the beginning of S1.

 

I totally understand your frustration because I know I felt that way too. I remember that the showrunners were asked about this very thing in early Season 1 because it was unclear and basically they said it was fairly Groundhog's Day - though not specifically the same thing over and over as you have to consider that the curse moved things around for Henry because he was not cursed and obviously things had to change once he was introduced into a situation. To specifically bring it back to this episode, you see Graham ask Mary Margaret how they met and neither can remember, it's all a fog. The curse didn't really give them definitive memories of anything because it didn't have to. No one questioned things until time started moving and people actually thought about the actions they were taking. Henry was the only one questioning things because he was the only one who actually was changing. Poor kid never could have proper friends because they didn't age along with him. And once Emma arrived, time started moving, so she never thought anything was wrong other than that this was just a very strange small town.

 

I think you said you're up to watching episode 9 which is an Evil Queen vs Someone Other than Snow story, so maybe that will give you a better idea of what makes her the Evil Queen. 

 

ETA: I should say too that if you're looking for clarity on world building and how most things work on this show, you're going to be disappointed. I think that especially in Season 1, the showrunners were surprised by a lot of the questions they got because they never thought about how things really worked that much, so the details we're given of cursed Storybrooke isn't vague because they were trying to be tricky, but rather because it never occurred to them that they needed to really explain it.

Edited October 30, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[kingshearte]

I kind of figured it was Groundhog Day-ish, but without remembering that you'd done all that stuff before. Not even to the level of "Cause and Effect," the Star Trek: Next Gen episode with, I think, one of the most memorable teasers of any show ever, where they kept living the same day, and mostly didn't really realize it, except that certain things started to twig their memories. I think the Storybrooke people just lived the same thing repeatedly, but had no idea they were doing so.

[profdanglais]

I only watched this episode once when it first aired, and I don't remember much aside from the shock of Graham's death, but rewatching it I really liked it. Jamie Dornan is a terrible actor, but his Belfast accent was out in full force here, and that can't help but be charming. Also, and the CS shipper in me hates to admit this, the chemistry with Graham and Emma was real and I genuinely thought it would go somewhere right until the end. And on a shallow note, I love the Evil Queen's black robe thingy with the high filigree collar. It's her best outfit. 

Other things I liked:

--someone genuinely listening to Henry and believing him

--Emma and Regina's fist fight (SQ foreplay, I'm assuming?)

--the wolf

--Snow's letter and her figuring out that the Huntsman was sent to kill her. She really used to be so smart and badass

--Mary Margaret and Emma's heart-to-heart over tea and OJ

--Gold in the forest was SO creepy and awesome. WTF was he doing with that shovel. S1 Gold was a fantastic villain

It's frustrating though that after Graham remembered, 

Spoiler

no one else did until the curse was broken. Would have been better if more people had started having memories in similar ways. Unless I'm misremembering and that did happen? 

[daxx]

Good episode, it saddens me to see Emma lose someone important in her life. Still love Graham’s statement that he’s leaving Regina for himself. I hadn’t really thought of shipping Emma with Graham until this episode back when I watched the first time. Mainly because he was involved with Regina. I am glad they killed him, made Storybrooke seem more threatening. 

Spoiler

Unfortunately they never let anyone find out Regina did it which was an absolute crime dramatically speaking.

[Shanna Marie]

I have lots of thoughts about this episode that I'll have to discuss in the All Seasons thread because they pertain to the aftermath.

As for the episode itself, it's really hard to see how they didn't realize they were writing a rape. Jamie Dornan may not be the best, most expressive actor in the world, but he still managed to convey the Huntsman's sheer horror and terror when Regina ordered him sent to her bedchamber, and he conveyed how much Graham loathed his "relationship" with Regina and didn't understand why he felt so compelled to be with her in spite of that loathing. Then we get the finishing touch of the abuser move of "I have to kill you because if I can't have you, she's not going to have you."  Regina still hasn't learned that trying to throw her weight around with Emma is only going to backfire. Keeping her mouth shut and ignoring Emma probably would have been more effective. Flouncing into the sheriff's office to play "he's mine!" just riled her up, the same way pulling her "I'm Henry's mother and you're nothing" routine only ended up getting Emma to stay in town.

I hadn't noticed this before, but that scene in which Graham wakes up in Regina's bed is rather silly on multiple levels. For one thing, they had already established that Graham doesn't sleep over. He has to sneak out when Regina's done with him because of Henry. But when he wakes up from his dream/memory, he's wearing his boxer shorts and Regina is wearing a nightie (and they're nicely color-coordinated with each other), so it doesn't look like they just fell asleep after sex without realizing it. They got dressed again and then got back in bed and went to sleep. The nightie definitely means Regina changed clothes. It's not like she's just still wearing a bra and slip because they were so impatient she didn't get entirely undressed, and if he was so impatient that he kept his underwear on, wouldn't he have had other bits of clothing on, too? Even just Regina woke up and put on her nightgown, then got back in bed, wouldn't she have awakened Graham and told him to get out? Letting him sleep and falling asleep, herself, would be risky. What if they both slept until morning, and either there was a risk that the town would see him climbing out the window in daylight, or Henry would catch him sneaking out?

It's one of those things that seems to be plot-driven rather than something these characters would have actually done. They needed Graham to wake up from a dream near Regina, so she'd know he was remembering. And, I guess, since it was early on Sunday night, they were covering them up for propriety. It's funny that his boxers were rather big and baggy and her nightgown was rather matronly (it looks like one my elderly mother wears), so it's like the modern version of the married couple sleeping in separate twin beds on TV. But there are ways to shoot that kind of thing to imply nudity without showing anything -- we see bare shoulders on both of them in bed, he sits up, bare-chested, she clutches the sheet to her chest when she sits up. We see his bare feet hit the floor and walk to where his underwear and trousers are, and see his hands pick them up as he bends over to get them. Cut to her sitting on the bed, still holding the sheet. Cut back to him, now wearing his underwear and stepping into his trousers. Given that it's pretty obvious what they were doing and that later in the show they were going to have her order him as a captive sent to her bedchamber, it's a bit silly to be so prudish about a stronger implication that they were naked in bed together. Also, it's humorously ironic, given the movies that would later make him famous, that they put him in big, baggy boxers instead of implying nudity.

Regina really is bad at hiring assassins. I guess she only saw the bar fight and didn't know about the crying over killing a deer for food. Or she thought Snow was more like drunken, loutish bullies in a bar and less like a deer and wouldn't spark any mercy.

Spoiler

Then there was sending Hook to kill Cora, even with the retcon of her little "test" for him. Maybe she should have selected assassins based on different criteria.

The louts in the bar, assuming any of them survived, would have probably been better at killing Snow.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

The louts in the bar, assuming any of them survived, would have probably been better at killing Snow.

I'm pretty sure a grandmother in a wheelchair would be better at killing Snow.

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And, I guess, since it was early on Sunday night, they were covering them up for propriety.

This show is weird when it comes to family friendliness. It's Disney, but rape is a-okay. We can't imply nudity, but gruesome deaths are fine. It ranges from adult drama to Saturday morning cartoons.

Spoiler

OUAT is the show where Elsa and crypt sex are in the same episode. How the heck can you call it a family show when Snow White approves of adultery, anyway?

Edited June 23, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

This show is weird when it comes to family friendliness. It's Disney, but rape is a-okay. We can't imply nudity, but gruesome deaths are fine. It ranges from adult drama to Saturday morning cartoons.

A couple of episodes earlier, they showed Regina finding Graham's socks under the bed while we heard the shower in the background, which seems on a par with suggesting that they're naked in this episode, since it implies he's naked in the shower and that clothing was removed hastily. I don't think it would have bothered me so much here if they hadn't made such a big deal earlier about him having to climb out the window in the middle of the night because of the risk of Henry finding out. That means there's no reason they would have put clothes back on after sex and then gone to sleep. If he'd put on clothes, he'd have left, especially since he doesn't really want to be around Regina and was only there to try to feel something. After "feeling" but not really feeling, you'd think he'd have bailed. If it appears that they're naked, then you can still have him waking up from the dream/memory because it's possible they just unintentionally conked out after sex.

[Camera One]

I decided to unwind by watching the episode.  After reading so many comments about bad acting, I was relieved to find that I still enjoyed the episode just as much and I still don't find the actor to be a problem.

I suspect they were trying to do another fakeout at the beginning with Regina looking sadly at the coffin and then comforting Snow, but in the next scene, she is disgusted and we see she was already evil.  Snow guessed that Regina was going to have her killed 

Spoiler

and her letter mentioned revenge.  Which all makes no sense considering she should have no idea why Regina hated her from the flashback later in the season before she ate the apple.

Snow mentions that her father's knights all offered her condolences, which means that the Black Knights were her father's soldiers.  So why were they all evil?  Did Regina recruit a completely new force, or take all their hearts?  Why would Snow's father choose such uniforms?  

When Graham was describing the wolf with a red eye, it seemed like Regina knew of the wolf

Spoiler

but that was another dead-end.  

I had forgotten that Emma actually saw the wolf herself.  

Spoiler

That reminded why it was doubly disappointing that Emma never really looked into Graham's death.  She would have asked Henry why Graham wanted to enter that cemetery building and she would have seen the same symbol in Henry's book.  She would have read "Graham"'s story.  Mary Margaret would have pointed out how she couldn't remember when she met anyone and neither did Graham.  Yes, the whole Curse concept would still have been far-fetched, but it was still a huge step forward and Emma would surely have thought back on all that when the Curse broke.   Furthermore, as said above, no one else remembered at all for the rest of the season.  All momentum ground to a halt.  Heck, Emma could have followed Regina around and noticed she spent extended periods inside the mausoleum and she could have seen the stairs leading downwards at some point.

I remember being quite curious about why Mr. Gold was digging a hole in the forest.  The "gardening" in the forest excuse was ridiculous.  I thought maybe Gold could turn into a wolf.  

Spoiler

Does the whistle that the Huntsman give Snow ever come into play?

As for the age-old question, "Does Emma know that Regina killed Graham".   Eddy Kitsis's answer to that question was, "Some questions are better left unasked".

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

This was one of my favorite episodes when it aired, even though it ended in tragedy. It still holds up as a fantastic episode. I think Jamie Dornan (finally) delivered a great performance. It was sympathetic, tragic, and heartbreaking. I remember thinking that this episode made Regina/the Evil Queen irredeemable. Rape on TV/movies invokes a stronger reaction than murder sometimes, I don't know why. Maybe it's the control aspect.

Spoiler

It was so hard to rewatch knowing that Graham never got justice and essentially nobody remembered him after he died.

The reasoning for the Evil Queen to use the Huntsman to kill Snow was weak. She had the black knights under her control, and she presumably could've ordered them to kill Snow. We saw in Snow Falls that the black knights would've had no scruples in killing Snow and taking her heart. Why Regina needed a huntsman to do the job is beyond me. Was it because the king had just died, and she was trying to play it safe in the beginning?

Snow's letter to Regina was sweet and sad. Ginnifer Goodwin really brought that fairytale feel for Snow.

I loved Gold's line about forgetting to shave. The show had more dry humor back then.

On 10/27/2014 at 12:58 AM, Zuleikha said:

I'm watching OuaT for the first time

I don't know if you're aware of this or not--we're doing a whole series rewatch right now. The rewatch schedule is pinned on top of the board.

And welcome to the forum! :-)

[andromeda331]

38 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The reasoning for the Evil Queen to use the Huntsman to kill Snow was weak. She had the black knights under her control, and she presumably could've ordered them to kill Snow. We saw in Snow Falls that the black knights would've had no scruples in killing Snow and taking her heart. Why Regina needed a huntsman to do the job is beyond me. Was it because the king had just died, and she was trying to play it safe in the beginning?

That's a good point.  If Regina was new to murder it would make more sense she picked the wrong person to murder Snow. But by this point she's the Evil Queen, she has control of the Black Nights and just arranged her husband's murder. Unless she was planning on using the Huntsman as the fall guy 

Spoiler

as she does with the Magic Mirror. She gets snakes specially from where he's from. 

But that doesn't make anymore sense. She claims she can't kill Snow because the people are still loyal to her. Why did that matter to her? She's never really cared about the people. She's always gone evil. It won't bother her too much to murder peasants or how they feel. Besides wouldn't they be suspicious after their King dies by poison and his daughter (hey A&E if the King is dead, his heir is King or Queen, Snow really should be Queen now) is murdered? Once Snow's dead isn't she going to drop the act and just be evil? How much anyone knows would be a good to know.  Snow hugs Regina like she doesn't know Regina murdered her father but later immediately knows the Huntsman is going to murder on Regina's orders. So she did know Regina was evil by that point, wouldn't everyone?
 

Spoiler

 

Didn't others realize the Queen was evil at some point before then? Did Regina take the hearts of all the servants and guards? Even in world without newspapers and TV. Stuff slips out on royal families all the time. Did they know that their King though the Queen had a lover? He talked about it with the Magic Mirror but no one else overheard that conversation? No one else noticed the Queen was evil? No one wondered why the Queen was never with her husband or stepdaughter? It really makes no sense. That someone who put her stepdaughter's horse under a sleeping curse or ripped down her ribbons like a freaking child would have kept her cool around everyone. You really think a lot more people would realize something was up with the Queen. Even Leopold would have had to notice even before retcon that Leo dated Cora. 

 

[Camera One]

21 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

But that doesn't make anymore sense. She claims she can't kill Snow because the people are still loyal to her. Why did that matter to her? She's never really cared about the people. She's always gone evil. It won't bother her too much to murder peasants or how they feel. Besides wouldn't they be suspicious after their King dies by poison and his daughter (hey A&E if the King is dead, his heir is King or Queen, Snow really should be Queen now) is murdered? Once Snow's dead isn't she going to drop the act and just be evil? How much anyone knows would be a good to know.  Snow hugs Regina like she doesn't know Regina murdered her father but later immediately knows the Huntsman is going to murder on Regina's orders. So she did know Regina was evil by that point, wouldn't everyone?

Yeah, that whole thing made no sense.  Regina said, "I need someone ADEPT at murder."  So what are the Black Knights, chopped liver?  Did she not watch the whole scene at the bar, when the other guy made fun of Graham for crying after killing someone?  

I assumed Regina said the people were still loyal to Snow, that they might turn against her after Snow died if they thought she had anything to do with Snow's death.  But there were a thousand and one ways to get Snow killed in an "accident".  Heck, she could send Snow on a horse carriage ride and then use magic to flip her off a cliff.  

[Shanna Marie]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I assumed Regina said the people were still loyal to Snow, that they might turn against her after Snow died if they thought she had anything to do with Snow's death.  But there were a thousand and one ways to get Snow killed in an "accident".  Heck, she could send Snow on a horse carriage ride and then use magic to flip her off a cliff.  

Graham might have worked as a patsy if she'd sent someone else to escort Snow, and then that crazy guy who loves animals and hates people attacked and killed Snow. But recruiting the crazy guy who loves animals and hates people to the royal guard and dressing him up in the uniform and armor of a royal guard and then ordering him to kill Snow while escorting her doesn't exactly help Regina look innocent so the people won't blame her and hate her for killing Snow.

[Camera One]

If all the Snow's father's guards were still loyal to her, why didn't Snow just send word that Regina tried to kill her, and summon all the guards who were loyal to her family.  Why/how was Regina able to convince the kingdom that Snow was a traitor?  At this point, I'm guessing no one knew Regina knew and used magic?

Spoiler

This episode also brings up the issue of Regina's vault of hearts, and we never saw her give them back to the people she took them from.  

I guess Regina was really mad, and she was afraid of Graham's memories coming back, but she could also have squeezed the heart and forced Graham to reject Emma.  Though in this episode, the heart wasn't yet an intercom system.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Camera One

[PixiePaws1]

I never saw any chemistry between Emma and Graham BUT i did feel that the Huntsman had unrequited love for Snow...and seeing him forcing a kiss on Emma was just...ewwwww...for me.

[superloislane]

5 hours ago, PixiePaws1 said:

i did feel that the Huntsman had unrequited love for Snow

Really? I don't think that was ever hinted at at all.

I loved this episode at the time and I still enjoy it even though I have watched it a number of times since. I feel like this was the episode that actually got me into the show and the first I got to watch live (and then it went on winter hiatus right after this ugh!). Since I had only got into it, I didn't have any theories as to who Graham's fairytale persona was so that was actually a surprise for me. 

This episode has a great fairytale reveal without it being filler and it continues the main plot and even adds something new - the Emma and Regina fight has come to a head, even though Emma still doesn't believe she was able to break the curse on one person and we see the consequences of that and that Regina isn't messing around or just being a bitch - she really is an evil murderer. It set up so many interesting stories.

Spoiler

Unfortunately I don't think those stories were ever fully realised. I expected the curse to break one by one on people by whoever Emma was getting close to but it didn't happen. And the fact that NO ONE especially Emma found out about Graham's death and Emma was forced to grovel to Regina and everyone else bows to her in the end disgusts me so much that I couldn't enjoy the episode as much on rewatch. That has really tainted everything with a bad smell.

Just...poor Emma and poor Graham.

[tennisgurl]

I still really love this episode, and its tragedy is even more noticeable in retrospect. I think this is Jamie Dornans best performance by far, even though I liked him in the part since day one. I really saw his connection with Emma, and felt his pain, both in Storeybrooke and in the EF. I love how in Storeyrbooke he feels so miserable with Regina, but cant explain why until he meets Emma and starts getting his memory back. You really do feel for him, and his awful life as the sex toy of this horrible monster. And Regina's reactions to him are so classic abuser, especially in Storeybrooke. She acts like his feelings are just crazy and tries to gas light him, she manipulates him, and when he tries to escape his abuser, she murders him as he tries to escape. 

Regina really is The Worst. We see a side of her thats two faced, playing as Snows loving step mom while planning her murder, and a side of her that is truly sadistic, in her rapes of poor Graham, and her uncaring feelings towards everything she seems to meet. Especially with Snow at her sweetest and most dignified, telling the Huntsman to do what he needs to do, just letting Regina know that she forgives her. And, of course, Regina cant stand that, because she hates being reminded that Snow is a million times the person she is. 

Spoiler

This episode is even worse in retrospect knowing that Graham will NEVER get justice for his constant rapes and eventually murder. In universe, because even Super Best person Ever Regina never told anyone what she did, even Emma, and the heroes are either total morons who never put two and two together and figured out why a guy in perfect health died of a "heart attack" just as he was breaking free of a murderer whos whole thing is CRUSHING HEARTS, or, and this might be sadly true, they just didnt care. They fell under Regina's spell, and never again cared about any of her past victims. It also puts to rest the whole stupid idea later on that the Evil Queen was somehow a different person than Mayor Mills, when she was still doing shit like that now! As is any retcon that this was a real relationship. "Your my pet, bring him to be bedchambers" is pretty fucking obvious, even by A&Es creepy lack of understanding of consent. Its just so freaking creepy that they wrote this obvious example of sexual slavery, and just never cared. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Regina really is The Worst. We see a side of her thats two faced, playing as Snows loving step mom while planning her murder, and a side of her that is truly sadistic

This is when Regina is at her best as a villain, to be honest. I liked it when she could appear caring, only to turn around and (quite literally) backstab whoever she was deceiving. When she's manipulative as hell, she's truly a formidable foe. It's when she's a loose cannon strutting around without tactics that she gets boring quickly.

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/24/2018 at 4:07 PM, Camera One said:

If all the Snow's father's guards were still loyal to her, why didn't Snow just send word that Regina tried to kill her, and summon all the guards who were loyal to her family.  Why/how was Regina able to convince the kingdom that Snow was a traitor?  At this point, I'm guessing no one knew Regina knew and used magic?

I don't think she was ever able to convince the kingdom that Snow was a traitor.

Spoiler

Thus, the village slaughter because the people wouldn't betray Snow.

But it does make you wonder why Snow didn't do anything before they learned Regina had magic. She just caved. For one thing, why was she going off alone with Graham, on foot, to the summer palace when her father had just died, and theoretically she should have just become queen? And she knows when she goes that Regina has it in for her, but she goes along with it? When she knows for certain that Regina sent an assassin, she doesn't do anything but run away? She doesn't gather her supporters and try to fight back?

In the fairy tale and Disney movie, she's a child (and it's also not clear that her father was dead--even if he was, the queen might have been the regent, so Snow wouldn't have been ruling). But this Snow is an adult who should have just become Queen. It should have taken a lot more work and scheming by Regina to get her to be alone in the woods with Graham. Or, at least, some other excuse for her to be alone in the woods with him.

I think the writers needed to have worked a little harder to find a better in-universe explanation for the events they were using from the fairy tale.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

For one thing, why was she going off alone with Graham, on foot, to the summer palace when her father had just died, and theoretically she should have just become queen? And she knows when she goes that Regina has it in for her, but she goes along with it? When she knows for certain that Regina sent an assassin, she doesn't do anything but run away? She doesn't gather her supporters and try to fight back?

Why did they bother having Snow suspect that Regina wanted to kill her?  This episode gives the message that a noble hero just sits there and waits to die.

Spoiler

Which is pretty much the "lesson" of Season 6. 

[andromeda331]

They really could have done that scene better if Snow didn't know Graham was going to kill her or that Regina murdered her father. Maybe he tries but she manages to get away but is lost in the Woods. She doesn't know the area and has never on her own. She doesn't know where to go. The Huntsman can still find her since he knows the woods. Maybe he picked this area because he knows it so well and Snow's never been here which makes it harder for run to safety. Maybe he tries to kill her and she asks why and he let's it slip that Regina wants her dead. She could be shocked, freaked out and scared to death all making it hard for the Huntsman to kill her because she's not evil she just a scared girl. Then he lets her go. Snow runs off but doesn't know where to go. She's never been in the woods or on her own before and just learned her stepmother someone she loved and adored tried to have her killed. Maybe she figures out her father's murder on the run and doesn't know how she can defeat Regina since she's on her own. It could explain why she's so bitter by the time she meets Charming if it had come to such a shock and she's spent those years just trying to figure out how to survive, stay alive and constantly on the run from the Black Knights. It makes so much less sense that Snow hugged Regina crying like she didn't know Regina killed her father and then on the walk with Huntsman she not only knows it but knows he's to kill her. If she knew or even just figured it out why wouldn't she have grabbed some clothes and stuff and bolted. Why would she go anywhere with any with anyone she thinks is going to kill her? Why wouldn't she have snuck out of the castle and stashed stuff in different places before finally bolting? 

[Camera One]

I forgot to mention I wish we saw the scene where the wolves taught Graham how to read.

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I forgot to mention I wish we saw the scene where the wolves taught Graham how to read.

Heh, I thought of that when Regina asked Graham to read the note to her. "Yeah lady, literacy was totally a high priority of my wolf parents."

[Rumsy4]

Why was Snow walking to the Summer palace with no luggage  instead of taking a carriage? Is the kingdom that small? And why walk through the woods to get there? 

[KingOfHearts]

It's almost as though the events of this episode were intended for another kind of show. They're not very congruent with the rest of the series. There's an Emma/Graham quickie romance that didn't have any more subtext than Swan Queen beforehand, it deals directly with rape, and Graham's death is surprisingly inconsequential. I remember the writers saying they wanted to show that nobody was safe. It seems like Graham waking up and being murdered is supposed to be uber important. The sense of urgency is off the charts. 

Spoiler

But, it doesn't really go anywhere. By the next episode, all we have left of Graham is a pair of shoe laces and some walkie-talkies. We don't even know where his wolf went. You'd think a major character in the Snow White tale like the Huntsman would have a more prominent role. Nobody remembered him or the fact he saved both Snow AND Charming from death. It's really sad when you think about how Neal was a "hero", yet he didn't do anything remotely sacrificial. I'm sorry, but dying because you're too stupid to live is not heroic. It's dumb.

The Heart is a Lonely Hunter is just full of stuff that never comes to fruition. No other fairy tale character remembers their past, it's never address that Regina rape or murdered Graham, and it's never explained what the wolf was. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

After watching this episode, I've decided to insert Graham into the CS/Snowing fic I'm writing just so I can save his life. #JusticeForGraham2018.