19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[3girlsforus]

As posted, Abeka is solid, but again, not the type of curriculum you would use for a college track homeschool student. Which your child may or may not be. One of the best things about homeschooling is that you know your kid and you can take the strengths he/she has and find the right approach, or even mix and match curriculums.

 

I agree - i actually don't know any homeschoolers who use a canned curriculum (like Abeka, BJU) straight through for all subjects. I know homeschoolers like that exist but I don't know any personally or on my online homeschool forums. It's quite common not to. BUT... Abeka is decent enough that if that is what the Bates are using (I don't know anything about them nor have I seen their show) then I guarantee those kids are getting a better educational foundation than the Duggar family - assuming they actually use the curriculum, study it, do the work, learn the info etc. Abeka has math through pre-calculus, sciences including Chem and Physics, their literature includes authors like Shakespeare and other classic authors. So at least that's something. 

 

Whether they are allowed to do anything with it... that's another issue. But at least if they study these things in high school then down the road if they decide to undrink the Kool-aid and want to pursue additional education or a life beyond baby making and music then they are going to be better prepared than the Duggar kids.

[riverblue22]

 

The Girl Scouts have father-daughter dances.  I went to a couple growing up in Ohio, and my daughters attended father-daughter dances in Virginia.  They were a lot of fun but I don't consider that it was a "first date."

 

The Girl Scouts have father-daughter dances.  I went to a couple growing up in Ohio, and my daughters attended father-daughter dances in Virginia.  They were a lot of fun but I don't consider that it was a "first date."

[GEML]

GEML your a rebel with/without a cause/cross

I studied philosophy. I seriously had professors from all over the country calling me up and telling me I would lose my soul by doing this.

Instead I graduated with honors and married the other Christian in the program!

Even educated Christians fear certain types of education. In some ways, I can't blame the Duggars, because I know people with multiple PhDs who fear critical thinking, creativity and people who ask questions for which there really are no good answers. And for a lot of kids out there, it's ok, because they won't miss these things not being in their education.

But for some children, you might as well tell them not to breathe. I don't know if the Duggars have a child like that. But if they do, someday, somehow, we will know.

[ghoulina]

Well, this is news to me. Father-daughter "first dates." ???  While I guess this could generally be a good idea, especially if presented as GEML describes it here, it hasn't made it to my area of the country, at least as far as I know. I do wonder how widespread the concept could be. The closest thing we have in my region are "Father-Daughter" dances which are generally only held at private or parochial schools. If the public schools do them, I'd be surprised. But my niece [now 22] did attend one at her Catholic high school with my brother, her dad. They had a great time, as I remember.  I think we as a country really need to do something to teach young MEN how women should be treated.

 

I have honestly never heard of father-daughter "first dates" either. I guess I get the idea behind it, but couldn't the result be accomplished by the father simply showing the daughter how she should be treated? By how he treats her mother? I just get skeeved out by the idea that the father, alone, holds the daughter's heart before she gets married. It's like they're passing her from one man to another and it is a bit unsettling to me. 

[Almost 3000]

but couldn't the result be accomplished by the father simply showing the daughter how she should be treated? By how he treats her mother?

 

You would think that would cover it.

[NausetGirl]

I'm not arguing against educational opportunity, just pointing out that most people don't have advanced math and science skills. The Duggars are not unusual in that respect. It would be wonderful if everybody had advanced education but that is not the norm even for non fundamentalist families. There are many things about their parenting that I disagree with. It just seems that there is so much speculation about what they do or don't do that we really can't know. I'm sure they would find my parenting horrible. I did not expose my children to religion. I don't keep them from it but, it was not a part of their lives, at all. Sometimes I feel the desire to bring some balance to the discussion.

 

Higgins, I truly appreciate your wanting to bring some balance to the discussion. That's always valuable. You're absolutely right. Much of what we're forced to study in high school are things we will never again use in our lives. And you said something else that's very important too. "I did not expose my children to religion.  I don't keep them from it but, it was not a part of their lives, at all."  THAT is the critical thing. You don't keep them from it. From what we see, and what they themselves tell us, Jim-Bob and Michelle Duggar - in every way possible - DO limit what their children are exposed to. They want to be in control of every aspect of their lives. They feel they have a right to it, as parents. Even to the point of when some of their children are no longer children. They believe that parental control will eliminate the possibilities of anything bad ever happening. They even believe they're much smarter than most of us, IMO. They are, in actuality, delusional, because no one can control everything, even in their own lives, much less those of other people. I believe THAT is what many posters here are critical about. The Duggar children are viewed as property by their parents. Jim-Bob & Michelle do not value a wide and expansive education for their kids. Of introducing them to all kinds of topics and interests, and then standing back and seeing what may click with each one of them. What might make THE CHILDREN happy. Most parents say that it doesn't matter to them whether the child ends up as President of the US, or as a barber - as long as the child is happy in what they do.  But the Duggars seem to show very little interest in the happiness of their kids. They speak mostly about all the dangers the world holds for their kids, about all the bad stuff out there. But little about happiness. The Duggars, unlike the vast majority of parents worldwide, are not eager for their children to go to college [or IMO, even trade school]. To know more than they do, to become more than they themselves are. They are intimidated by that thought. I believe they even fear it. Jim-Bob [like the 15-year old boy he is emotionally] fears his sons becoming smarter than he is, of knowing things he doesn't know. He fears the BIG boys. And I believe Michelle [like the 15-year old baby of the family that she is emotionally] just plain fears the loss of her spotlight. My opinion, anyway.

[NausetGirl]

Since I'm Jewish I can speak to how we do it. Both of my parents walked me down the aisle (one on either side) and my husband's parents walked him down the aisle at the start of the wedding. It is more about two families coming together than a bride being turned over to another to me, but the Duggars seem to turn it into this whole thing about possession and control. Yuck.

 

I love that aspect of Jewish weddings - both parents support the couple - and both families are being joined. No one side is better or more important than the other. PS - the most fun I've ever had at weddings has been at Jewish weddings! Way too much fun!

Edited November 8, 2014 by NausetGirl

[NausetGirl]

As posted, Abeka is solid, but again, maybe not the type of curriculum you would use for a college track homeschool student if that is the only thing you used. Which your child may or may not be. One of the best things about homeschooling is that you know your kid and you can take the strengths he/she has and find the right approach, or even mix and match curriculums.

As I said in my earlier post, the Bates children do not have what most people (even religious conservatives) would call a college education. The one daughter studied music performance. This is more in keeping with someone studying dance or theatre and getting a BFA.

One of my sisters is a Wheaton grad, and my father taught at a small, private conservative Christian college most of my life. I have friends who either are teaching or who have taught or attended most of the familiar names. (Rebel me, I attended the godless state university.)

 

Respectfully disagree with the BFA comment. While the Bates daughter that attended Crown College may have studied music exclusively and had no other general elective/liberal arts coursework to complete whatsoever, most BFA curriculums at accredited schools also include general education electives which must be completed successfully as well. Each state has different requirements and each college does as well, as to how they construct their curriculums in each subject. BFA students [1] study their major subject - music, theater, art, dance [2] practice or do studio work and [3] take additional coursework in English, literature, history, foreign languages, religion, philosophy, psychology, writing - whatever.  It's not fair to assume someone with a BFA studied only music [or whatever] and practiced a lot.  It might be true for some - but shouldn't be assumed for all.

Edited November 7, 2014 by NausetGirl

[BradandJanet]

My children and my education are the two most important gifts I've received in my life. I don't feel everyone should be pressured to have children; that's very personal, but I do feel that all children are entitled to education. I hate that the Duggars deprive their children of a human right that many people in other countries would sacrifice almost anything to give to their children. 

 

ETA: In this country too.

Edited November 7, 2014 by BradandJanet

[NausetGirl]

My husband has "date" night with our daughters, but it was set up mostly as a way for me to have an evening alone and for us to check in with our kids without the other parent there. There was nothing that sinister about it. He would arrive home from work, ring the doorbell, take them to his car and they'd go to dinner and maybe a movie. It was quiet, simple, and easy. My son and I would have similar time together because I did feel guilty that I spend more time with my daughters' activities than with him and his hobbies.

 

But with the Duggars who knows how wonky they would turn that scenario. Their obsession with sex is creepy beyond belief. As much as I believe JimBob and Michelle don't know their children, I don't know that there is all that much to know about them. These kids/young adults seem awfully sheltered and dull. What would they discuss with their kids if they did more one on one time?

 

Spot-on. I've sometimes thought of what I'd say if I ever found myself next to one of the older Duggar children at a banquet or something, where you have only the people on each side of you to talk with. I've imagined it would be very quiet and awkward. I couldn't talk with them about the current cultural scene - books, movies, music etc. Or about world events. TV? History? Food? Shopping? They couldn't talk Bible verses with me - I'm too unfamiliar. Politics is something I discuss only with close friends or family - and even then we have differing views. What then?

Why do these people eat canned things cold and right from the can?!?! I swear, I saw JBoob eating carrots and green beans (?) cold from a can on the weight loss episode. And we've seen Jana feeding Jordyn (?) peas right from a can. I don't get it. And if you're trying to lose weight, canned things are not the way to do it!!! Who would stick to a lifetstyle plan if all you ate was cold, canned carrots!!!???!!!!

 

The only things I've ever eaten cold - and directly from a can - were fruits. And I think, maybe the odd can of beans at a campfire, as a child. I think we were playing "chuckwagon." Anything else I don't think I'd like too much. With microwaves even heating cold green beans takes just 2 minutes - if that's too much bother for the Duggars, then well, I just don't know. Wow.

[maraleia]

I had to tweet this today just because its time the media stops with their Duggar adoration

 

.@GMA .@peoplemag .@usweekly .@TLC why are you propping up the anti-LGBT anti-women anti-science Duggar family? It's shameful.

[Jynnan tonnix]

 As much as I believe JimBob and Michelle don't know their children, I don't know that there is all that much to know about them. These kids/young adults seem awfully sheltered and dull. What would they discuss with their kids if they did more one on one time?

Even as sheltered as they are, I would wager that these kids, or, at least some of them (others, by nature being more private and more naturally inclined to internalizing the rules they grew up with) do have actual thoughts in their heads which would begin to spill out if someone were to actually show an interest in drawing them out. I do wonder, though, whether they have any inkling that people ever actually do that, though. Even among their own siblings, does anyone's mind  ever even go there? Or are they just too programmed to squelch anything like a personal thought before it gets a chance to take root?

 

  But the Duggars seem to show very little interest in the happiness of their kids. They speak mostly about all the dangers the world holds for their kids, about all the bad stuff out there. But little about happiness. The Duggars, unlike the vast majority of parents worldwide, are not eager for their children to go to college [or IMO, even trade school]. To know more than they do, to become more than they themselves are. They are intimidated by that thought. I believe they even fear it. Jim-Bob [like the 15-year old boy he is emotionally] fears his sons becoming smarter than he is, of knowing things he doesn't know. He fears the BIG boys. And I believe Michelle [like the 15-year old baby of the family that she is emotionally] just plain fears the loss of her spotlight. My opinion, anyway.

The loss of the spotlight is, no doubt, a part of it. Maybe a large part. I had a whole theory worked out here, but it keeps getting away from me...the thing is that somehow she feels as though her obedience is vital in keeping Jim Bob's love, but on the other hand, as many people have noted, he seems to be the one who feels as though he lucked out is nabbing the hot cheerleader, and is still far more smitten by that teenage image which remains in his mind than she is. But on the other hand, she is convinced, on some level, that he is pretty much her entire world. I think they both have such a fear of that bubble of familial interdependence popping that it keeps them from anything like a sense of empathy. Michelle is so afraid of seeing any part of her "old" personality emerging to threaten her bubble that she cannot conceive of someone else being strong enough to let the chips fall where they may, and somehow sees it as a kindness to never allow her children to face that sort of dichotomy. She can't allow them to feel regret, so her whole life is a fight not to let them even know about alternatives lest they pick one and later change their minds. But somewhere along the line it moved from being what might once have been a valiant and weirdly selfless fight into a sort of consummate dullness.

[GEML]

Respectfully disagree with the BFA comment. While the Bates daughter that attended Crown College may have studied music exclusively and had no other general elective/liberal arts coursework to complete whatsoever, most BFA curriculums at accredited schools also include general education electives which must be completed successfully as well. Each state has different requirements and each college does as well, as to how they construct their curriculums in each subject. BFA students [1] study their major subject - music, theater, art, dance [2] practice or do studio work and [3] take additional coursework in English, literature, history, foreign languages, religion, philosophy, psychology, writing - whatever. It's not fair to assume someone with a BFA studied only music [or whatever] and practiced a lot. It might be true for some - but shouldn't be assumed for all.

I'll meet you halfway. My son is a theatre BA and as a drama mama from the DC metropolitan area, I know dozens of kids enrolled in theatre, dance, vocal music and the fine arts. There are some liberal arts classes, but this is not the same as a liberal arts education with it's emphasis on critical thinking, even as my son will take several classes in performance. That's not a criticism - the programs are designed to achieve a different result.

Edited November 7, 2014 by GEML

[NausetGirl]

I'll meet you halfway. My son is a theatre BA and as a drama mama from the DC metropolitan area, I know dozens of kids enrolled in theatre, dance, vocal music and the fine arts. There are some liberal arts classes, but this is not the same as a liberal arts education with it's emphasis on critical thinking, even as my son will take several classes in performance. That's not a criticism - the programs are designed to achieve a different result.

 

Agree. I think the differences in programs are due to different accrediting standards - and primarily just different schools. At my undergraduate school, students receiving the BFA took nearly half their 120 bachelor credits in liberal arts. Something like 50-55 hours. And probably a good thing too, since there probably isn't any area where it's more difficult to get an entry-level job [with a livable wage] than in the performing arts. Having other skills can't do anything but help for someone who wants to act, for example, but has to work in an office for a few years to pay the bills.

Edited November 8, 2014 by NausetGirl

[SoSueMe]

I'm fairly new to watching the Duggars, so my apologies if this is common knowledge to every one else. Can someone tell me what that process is for the sons to start courting? Does JimBob do the selecting of his future daughters-in-law? Or does he only "own the hearts" and whatever other body parts of his daughters?

[GEML]

It actually would be horribly wrong for a girl to make the first move in their world, although she could, you know, smile and toss her hair and arrange to sit next to a Duggar boy at a wedding or other activity. Then HE should tell Jim Bob and they discuss it, and then HE approaches HER father.

The story of tons of applications coming in shows how inappropriate the vast number of people are who are contacting them.

[DamWrite]

Re: their mating habits, I do believe GEML is the Jane Goodall of this fundy world we're witnessing.  Thanks for the insights!

[GEML]

Re: their mating habits, I do believe GEML is the Jane Goodall of this fundy world we're witnessing. Thanks for the insights!

My sisters will LOVE that. We did have to have had what qualifies for one of the most unusual religious upbringings ever. Unqualified access and impeccable credentials, but in the end, our parents let us go. But to me, people who believe and live like the Duggars are people first, who do really love their family, not just some odd collection of weird beliefs.

[Darknight]

Higgins, I truly appreciate your wanting to bring some balance to the discussion. That's always valuable. You're absolutely right. Much of what we're forced to study in high school are things we will never again use in our lives. And you said something else that's very important too. "I did not expose my children to religion. I don't keep them from it but, it was not a part of their lives, at all." THAT is the critical thing. You don't keep them from it. From what we see, and what they themselves tell us, Jim-Bob and Michelle Duggar - in every way possible - DO limit what their children are exposed to. They want to be in control of every aspect of their lives. They feel they have a right to it, as parents. Even to the point of when some of their children are no longer children. They believe that parental control will eliminate the possibilities of anything bad ever happening. They even believe they're much smarter than most of us, IMO. They are, in actuality, delusional, because no one can control everything, even in their own lives, much less those of other people. I believe THAT is what many posters here are critical about. The Duggar children are viewed as property by their parents. Jim-Bob & Michelle do not value a wide and expansive education for their kids. Of introducing them to all kinds of topics and interests, and then standing back and seeing what may click with each one of them. What might make THE CHILDREN happy. Most parents say that it doesn't matter to them whether the child ends up as President of the US, or as a barber - as long as the child is happy in what they do. But the Duggars seem to show very little interest in the happiness of their kids. They speak mostly about all the dangers the world holds for their kids, about all the bad stuff out there. But little about happiness. The Duggars, unlike the vast majority of parents worldwide, are not eager for their children to go to college [or IMO, even trade school]. To know more than they do, to become more than they themselves are. They are intimidated by that thought. I believe they even fear it. Jim-Bob [like the 15-year old boy he is emotionally] fears his sons becoming smarter than he is, of knowing things he doesn't know. He fears the BIG boys. And I believe Michelle [like the 15-year old baby of the family that she is emotionally] just plain fears the loss of her spotlight. My opinion, anyway.

I agree. Most parents want their kids to experience the world. Most want their kids to become better than them and get an amazing education. JimChelle are scared that their kids might out do them. I don't know why. Jim had a shirt childhood and is no better than his father. Michelle came from a good family but probably had no self esteem when she met JB.

[GEML]

Michelle is a bit of a puzzle. We've tossed around a lot of theories - spoiled youngest child, narccicistic personality disorder, sexual abuse, bulimia, borderline personality disorder- but for all she seems like a rather simple person, nothing fits very easily.

I think she genuinely feels deep shame for her actions as a teenager, but unless there are stories that we aren't hearing, those stories are grossly distorted within her own mind - even within the Fundamentalist community. Then it's hard not to feel that she didn't have some sort of breakdown around the time of the miscarriage, when they begin to be drawn into the Gothard web, but you can see by the photographs that it takes several years for that to happen.

Quiverfull has come to mean something very specific now, but back when the Duggars would have first started out, it was a much more figure it out as you go. There were certain commonalities, but one of them is NOT necessarily the idea that you are raising an "army for God" and you are part of the Dominionist movement to replace the US government with a theocracy. I have Quiverful friends who have voted for Democrats, Republicans and third parties. Many do not vote at all.

So about 8 children in, Michelle has another break down in "the laundry room" and at this point "a neighbor" offers to help. It's here that I think they go all in. I wonder who the neighbor was, but I'm betting it's a Gothard person. You see by their clothes they become VERY conservative in dress and hairstyle. Their children also get the most biblical names.

I think at this point JB is groomed to enter politics. But it doesn't go well. There's some falling out - and it cost him a quarter million dollars. However, they do get the show. They ease up on some things because they don't want to appear too odd and risk losing the show the way JB lost the primary election.

But at this point, Michelle essentially starts checking out completely on raising the children. As if by liberalizing, she doesn't know what to do with the younger ones, so she no only had the "buddy system" (reasonable in any large family) but now has "buddy teams" (essentially giving each daughter her own FAMILY.)

Then we get to the Jubilee miscarriage....

JB I get. But Michelle is just weird. And I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to figure out weird.

[SoSueMe]

I'm late to the Duggar topic so I've missed the Michelle back story (cheerleader, etc.) Was that all covered in the early episodes or is it known just through media publications?  

[GEML]

There is their show, their two books (which I haven't read, so I can't comment on in full, only excepts), media appearances and interviews.

[Darknight]

Michelle is a bit of a puzzle. We've tossed around a lot of theories - spoiled youngest child, narccicistic personality disorder, sexual abuse, bulimia, borderline personality disorder- but for all she seems like a rather simple person, nothing fits very easily.

I think she genuinely feels deep shame for her actions as a teenager, but unless there are stories that we aren't hearing, those stories are grossly distorted within her own mind - even within the Fundamentalist community. Then it's hard not to feel that she didn't have some sort of breakdown around the time of the miscarriage, when they begin to be drawn into the Gothard web, but you can see by the photographs that it takes several years for that to happen.

Quiverfull has come to mean something very specific now, but back when the Duggars would have first started out, it was a much more figure it out as you go. There were certain commonalities, but one of them is NOT necessarily the idea that you are raising an "army for God" and you are part of the Dominionist movement to replace the US government with a theocracy. I have Quiverful friends who have voted for Democrats, Republicans and third parties. Many do not vote at all.

So about 8 children in, Michelle has another break down in "the laundry room" and at this point "a neighbor" offers to help. It's here that I think they go all in. I wonder who the neighbor was, but I'm betting it's a Gothard person. You see by their clothes they become VERY conservative in dress and hairstyle. Their children also get the most biblical names.

I think at this point JB is groomed to enter politics. But it doesn't go well. There's some falling out - and it cost him a quarter million dollars. However, they do get the show. They ease up on some things because they don't want to appear too odd and risk losing the show the way JB lost the primary election.

But at this point, Michelle essentially starts checking out completely on raising the children. As if by liberalizing, she doesn't know what to do with the younger ones, so she no only had the "buddy system" (reasonable in any large family) but now has "buddy teams" (essentially giving each daughter her own FAMILY.)

Then we get to the Jubilee miscarriage....

JB I get. But Michelle is just weird. And I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to figure out weird.

The thing is why? I've read quiverfull thinks they're going to get into heaven before others because they're doing what God wants. If you want a lot of kids fine, but thinking god wants u to do this is absurd. Why join gothard a man unmarried has no kids but telling others how to raise their families. Why allow another person to dictate and control how you live your life. I'm sure Michelle has many regrets and questioned why she done this in the first place. I think she does somewhat regret having so many kids. Especially the eight back then she couldn't take care. I bet she viewed the help she was getting as a gift from God then continued to add more kids after that

[Joe Jitsu913]

My analysis of Michelle: She was the spoiled baby of the family who lived a very normal life: Trick or treating, girl scouts, cheerleading, road trips etc. My guess is she had the run of the house and her parents let her do as she pleased.

As a teen she was very aware of her looks and it was easy to flirt with guys and I'm guessing she went on a few dates before meeting Jim Bob.

Jim Bob meets "hot" cheerleader Michelle and they fall in love. Jim Bob makes Michelle feel a lot if shame and regret for possibly not being totally pure.

As they slip into Fundie land, Michelle projects her modesty issues onto her daughters.

[Fosca]

Jim-Bob and Michelle aren't alone in apparently not wanting their children to be more (or even as) educated as they are.  I teach at a community college in the Deep South and I am stunned by the number of students whose parents actively work AGAINST the child's receiving higher education.  One of the more common tactics is to be happy to drive the student to work but won't drive them to school.  Or who will watch the kids when the student in working but not when they're in class.  I suspect it boils down to "I never had much education and I did just fine--if you get more education than me you might think you're better than me or get uppity or liberal or something equally awful."

 

I just don't get it.  My parents earned a high-school diploma (dad) and a HS diploma/trade-school degree (mom), but their four kids have a total of five bachelors degrees (biology, zoology, math teaching, political science, nursing), two master's degree (biology and psychology) and a Ph.D. (psychology), and my parents supported us all the way and couldn't be happier or prouder.  But we weren't living poor in the South, where ignorance seems to be considered a much better state than education.

[goofygirl]

I just want to know why JimBoob was the one who got to say "You may kiss your bride" during the wedding.  Wasn't there a minister there??

[NausetGirl]

The story of tons of applications coming in shows how inappropriate the vast number of people are who are contacting them.

 

Do we believe that Boob actually IS receiving tons of applications to "date a Duggar?" Sorry, I know they really don't date, but that TLC alliteration bug had a hold of me...

[GleamingMist]

Do we believe that Boob actually IS receiving tons of applications to "date a Duggar?" Sorry, I know they really don't date, but that TLC alliteration bug had a hold of me...

 

I was wondering the same thing.  I believe him when he says he gets a lot of interest in Jana, but who would actually see John-David on TV and think "Yeah he seems like an intelligent attractive man to court?"  Yikes.  No offense if John-David is your cup of tea but he seems a little off to me.

[NausetGirl]

Jim-Bob and Michelle aren't alone in apparently not wanting their children to be more (or even as) educated as they are.  I teach at a community college in the Deep South and I am stunned by the number of students whose parents actively work AGAINST the child's receiving higher education.  One of the more common tactics is to be happy to drive the student to work but won't drive them to school.  Or who will watch the kids when the student in working but not when they're in class.  I suspect it boils down to "I never had much education and I did just fine--if you get more education than me you might think you're better than me or get uppity or liberal or something equally awful."

 

I just don't get it.  My parents earned a high-school diploma (dad) and a HS diploma/trade-school degree (mom), but their four kids have a total of five bachelors degrees (biology, zoology, math teaching, political science, nursing), two master's degree (biology and psychology) and a Ph.D. (psychology), and my parents supported us all the way and couldn't be happier or prouder.  But we weren't living poor in the South, where ignorance seems to be considered a much better state than education.

 

I guess parents like the ones you describe here, Fosca - parents who actively work AGAINST their children getting an education - are the type of people who just shouldn't have kids. I say the following only half-facetiously - but I really think a license should be required for parenthood. Just as it is for owning a dog.

[GEML]

I also wish I though parents always wished or pushed for their children to better or have more education than they have, but from my rough guess it's about 50/50. Many give it lip service but actively stand in the way, many seem to belittle it, but then you find out they have saved money for them to go - so outside appearances can be deceiving.

The point is that it takes an emotionally healthy person to have a child surpass his/her life. It's not actually an easy thing to go through.

[3girlsforus]

I just want to know why JimBoob was the one who got to say "You may kiss your bride" during the wedding.  Wasn't there a minister there??

Because he has a sick obsession with being in control of his daughters' sexual life

[NausetGirl]

Michelle is a bit of a puzzle. We've tossed around a lot of theories - spoiled youngest child, narccicistic personality disorder, sexual abuse, bulimia, borderline personality disorder- but for all she seems like a rather simple person, nothing fits very easily.

I think she genuinely feels deep shame for her actions as a teenager, but unless there are stories that we aren't hearing, those stories are grossly distorted within her own mind - even within the Fundamentalist community. Then it's hard not to feel that she didn't have some sort of breakdown around the time of the miscarriage, when they begin to be drawn into the Gothard web, but you can see by the photographs that it takes several years for that to happen.

Quiverfull has come to mean something very specific now, but back when the Duggars would have first started out, it was a much more figure it out as you go. There were certain commonalities, but one of them is NOT necessarily the idea that you are raising an "army for God" and you are part of the Dominionist movement to replace the US government with a theocracy. I have Quiverful friends who have voted for Democrats, Republicans and third parties. Many do not vote at all.

So about 8 children in, Michelle has another break down in "the laundry room" and at this point "a neighbor" offers to help. It's here that I think they go all in. I wonder who the neighbor was, but I'm betting it's a Gothard person. You see by their clothes they become VERY conservative in dress and hairstyle. Their children also get the most biblical names.

I think at this point JB is groomed to enter politics. But it doesn't go well. There's some falling out - and it cost him a quarter million dollars. However, they do get the show. They ease up on some things because they don't want to appear too odd and risk losing the show the way JB lost the primary election.

But at this point, Michelle essentially starts checking out completely on raising the children. As if by liberalizing, she doesn't know what to do with the younger ones, so she no only had the "buddy system" (reasonable in any large family) but now has "buddy teams" (essentially giving each daughter her own FAMILY.)

Then we get to the Jubilee miscarriage....

JB I get. But Michelle is just weird. And I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to figure out weird.

 

Your last sentence used to sum up my view too, GEML. But - if you bring some type of mental illness into the picture - narcissism or personality disorder or whatever - Mechelle is much more easily-understood. At least to me. Of course Boob would never recognize this - or admit this - or try to get her help. If that did turn out to be the case.

[Chai]

 The one thing I don't like is they started off, saying you can film our large family, just don't cut out the part about our faith. Our faith means so much to us.

 

I really admired them for that. That's what bugs me about it now, they seem to let that fall by the wayside. 

[GEML]

Your last sentence used to sum up my view too, GEML. But - if you bring some type of mental illness into the picture - narcissism or personality disorder or whatever - Mechelle is much more easily-understood. At least to me. Of course Boob would never recognize this - or admit this - or try to get her help. If that did turn out to be the case.

I think there is something broken, but I don't think it's narcissism or borderline personality disorder. It might be some kind of anxiety disorder that is masked by pregnancy hormones (or at least helped by it?) something like that?

One point I always come back to is Michelle making Jill call 911 when Josie's oxygen began failing. Even though Michelle understood the system far more. I wondered if perhaps she was simply too panicked to handle the call. That type of anxiety disorder could be hidden on television.

[BradandJanet]

Jim-Bob and Michelle aren't alone in apparently not wanting their children to be more (or even as) educated as they are.  I teach at a community college in the Deep South and I am stunned by the number of students whose parents actively work AGAINST the child's receiving higher education.  One of the more common tactics is to be happy to drive the student to work but won't drive them to school.  Or who will watch the kids when the student in working but not when they're in class.  I suspect it boils down to "I never had much education and I did just fine--if you get more education than me you might think you're better than me or get uppity or liberal or something equally awful."

 

I just don't get it.  My parents earned a high-school diploma (dad) and a HS diploma/trade-school degree (mom), but their four kids have a total of five bachelors degrees (biology, zoology, math teaching, political science, nursing), two master's degree (biology and psychology) and a Ph.D. (psychology), and my parents supported us all the way and couldn't be happier or prouder.  But we weren't living poor in the South, where ignorance seems to be considered a much better state than education.

This is sad to read, but I don't doubt it. I work at two very different kinds of colleges in the Northeast, and I've seen this phenomenon at the community college level, fortunately, not to the extent that you describe. 

 

I think anti-intellectualism reflects some of the polarization of American society. There are people who truly believe that a college education turns people into godless, liberal, feminist, Democrats, out to destroy the American way of life, and they aren't going to let that happen to their children or wives. It comes from a position of fear and uncertainty. This, I suspect, is the Duggars' thinking, and TLC fills its pockets by giving the this family a place to parade their lifestyle.

 

Shunning higher eduction may also reflect some frustrations with the American Dream and upward mobility. Why spend the time and money to get an education if it won't result in a better job anyway? Because of community colleges, a college education is more accessible than ever, and statistics show educated people make more money in a lifetime, but if people don't perceive that social mobility is possible, they won't aspire to go after it. 

 

The country loses in the long run if people reject education and won't invest in education for themselves and others. The "cut off our nose to spite our face" attacks I hear against education shock me. The students I see hungry for education are immigrants who believe that they can better their lives through learning. The others are the economic upper-middle-class and upper class students who see themselves continuing as the power elite.

 

Thanks, JB and MeChelle.

[NausetGirl]

I think there is something broken, but I don't think it's narcissism or borderline personality disorder. It might be some kind of anxiety disorder that is masked by pregnancy hormones (or at least helped by it?) something like that?

One point I always come back to is Michelle making Jill call 911 when Josie's oxygen began failing. Even though Michelle understood the system far more. I wondered if perhaps she was simply too panicked to handle the call. That type of anxiety disorder could be hidden on television.

 

I believe it would take a qualified therapist quite a while to figure out what's wrong, but more and more it really seems clear that there is definitely something clinical going on with Mechelle.

[mbutterfly]

Jim-Bob and Michelle aren't alone in apparently not wanting their children to be more (or even as) educated as they are.  I teach at a community college in the Deep South and I am stunned by the number of students whose parents actively work AGAINST the child's receiving higher education.  One of the more common tactics is to be happy to drive the student to work but won't drive them to school.  Or who will watch the kids when the student in working but not when they're in class.  I suspect it boils down to "I never had much education and I did just fine--if you get more education than me you might think you're better than me or get uppity or liberal or something equally awful."

 

I just don't get it.  My parents earned a high-school diploma (dad) and a HS diploma/trade-school degree (mom), but their four kids have a total of five bachelors degrees (biology, zoology, math teaching, political science, nursing), two master's degree (biology and psychology) and a Ph.D. (psychology), and my parents supported us all the way and couldn't be happier or prouder.  But we weren't living poor in the South, where ignorance seems to be considered a much better state than education.

I know this isn't exactly culturally comparable, but a family that I have admired since I was a college freshman was my roommate's family. Her parents came to the U. S. from Mexico as farm workers. They had 9 children. Every one of them had advanced college degrees. My roommate was the youngest child and an undergrad. I visited their home. It was tiny. The older sisters and brothers were pretty much living in their own homes by then, but they had all lived in this small, neat home. Several had doctorates. I will forever be impressed with this family. 

[SoSueMe]

I believe it would take a qualified therapist quite a while to figure out what's wrong, but more and more it really seems clear that there is definitely something clinical going on with Mechelle.

Probably has been mentioned before (sorry) but if Michelle has been pregnant or newly delivered so much of the last 30 years isn't it possible that she is in a perpetual state of postpartum depression? Maybe dealing with it by becoming hyper religious.

[GEML]

I'm skeptical that it's post-partum. She could be a depressive who had actually used the estrogens as a way of self-medicating. (Unconsciously.). But it seems unlikely that she would have had post-partum with EVERY pregnancy, and most cycles last about 18 months. I think it's too easy to look at her fertility as the obvious answer, as I think it probably was there before she'd had any children.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I think Michelle experienced some trauma in her early to mid teens which caused her to become mentally stuck at age 15.Whether the trauma was sexual, physical or due to some perceived sin, Michelle suddenly became religious. She got sucked in by Jim Bob, a conservative Christian who made her feel "tainted " because of her past experience with "heathen" boys.

She was young, naive and gullible when Jim Bob came around.

I often wonder what Michelle's relationship with her father was like growing up. She never mentions him. I wonder if maybe she was looking for a father figure/religious leader in Jim Bob? Someone who would help Michelle lead a "pure/wholesome" life.

[Darknight]

This is sad to read, but I don't doubt it. I work at two very different kinds of colleges in the Northeast, and I've seen this phenomenon at the community college level, fortunately, not to the extent that you describe.

I think anti-intellectualism reflects some of the polarization of American society. There are people who truly believe that a college education turns people into godless, liberal, feminist, Democrats, out to destroy the American way of life, and they aren't going to let that happen to their children or wives. It comes from a position of fear and uncertainty. This, I suspect, is the Duggars' thinking, and TLC fills its pockets by giving the this family a place to parade their lifestyle.

Shunning higher eduction may also reflect some frustrations with the American Dream and upward mobility. Why spend the time and money to get an education if it won't result in a better job anyway? Because of community colleges, a college education is more accessible than ever, and statistics show educated people make more money in a lifetime, but if people don't perceive that social mobility is possible, they won't aspire to go after it.

The country loses in the long run if people reject education and won't invest in education for themselves and others. The "cut off our nose to spite our face" attacks I hear against education shock me. The students I see hungry for education are immigrants who believe that they can better their lives through learning. The others are the economic upper-middle-class and upper class students who see themselves continuing as the power elite.

Thanks, JB and MeChelle.

But without college there would be no doctors, lawyers, dentists teachers,

[BradandJanet]

But without college there would be no doctors, lawyers, dentists teachers,

So very true. But if too many people get educated, there won't be enough people needing or willing to take low-paying service jobs. Of course, I guess it's possible to give birth to your own domestic labor force--every one of them.

[Darknight]

So very true. But if too many people get educated, there won't be enough people needing or willing to take low-paying service jobs. Of course, I guess it's possible to give birth to your own domestic labor force--every one of them.

I agree. And not everyone needs to go to college heck they can make an decent living by getting certified or going to tech school. But I think everyone should know they always have that choice to attend. And I remember when CUNY colleges in NY use to be free but then everyone wanted a college education so they started charging tuition.

I think some people choose to take low service jobs even with a degree. Money isn't everything

[Potato511]

I just want to know why JimBoob was the one who got to say "You may kiss your bride" during the wedding.  Wasn't there a minister there??

Bates Sr. does the same thing (at least in one wedding video I saw, though he looked down immediately, as if he did not actually want to see the kiss, or had some kind of modesty)

[BitterApple]

I think some people choose to take low service jobs even with a degree. Money isn't everything

Very true. A good friend of mine left an extremely stressful job where she made a crapload of money but was miserable, over-worked and exhausted 24/7. She ended taking a position as a guidance counselor at her old high school. She took a big pay cut, but she has summers and school vacations off and she's able to spend more time with her son because she gets out of work at a reasonable hour. Quality of life is much more important than money.

Edited November 8, 2014 by BitterApple

[BradandJanet]

I agree that not everyone wants to be a stockbroker or corporate lawyer. However, a high school guidance counselor needs a college degree, probably a master's degree at some point. I was thinking more in terms of scrubbing floors and picking vegetables, backbreaking work with long hours, terrible pay, and no chance to advance. I've known many adult students who have these kinds of jobs and are desperate to escape them. They see community college as a way to a better life, but it's hard to go to school when you work ten hour days just to feed your family and keep your car on the road. I also see students who make a good living in trade jobs and firefighting but want that "something more" they feel a college degree will give them.

[merylinkid]

Date a Dugger.   You know if TLC paid him to let his daughters be whored out like this, Slumbob Millionaire would totally go for it, courtship rules be damned.   If there is money in it, the religious angle goes right out the window.

 

As for education, there has always been a segment of our society that thought education was unnecessary.   If you re going to be a housewife or run a towing company, how much education do you need is thinking.   The reality is that you actually need a pretty good education or at least the ability to think critically to do these things.  

[BitterApple]

I agree that not everyone wants to be a stockbroker or corporate lawyer. However, a high school guidance counselor needs a college degree, probably a master's degree at some point. 

My friend does have her Master's, it was required for the counselor position, I understand what you were getting at in your original post though. To put things in context with the Duggars, it's definitely frustrating to see their kids pigeon-holed because Boob and Michelle have such a narrow view of the world. They let their kids attend ALERT, volunteer with the fire department and JD has his pilot's license, yet they won't let them join the military, apply for the police/fire academy or let JD work for a commerical airline. They could have real careers with salaries, benefits, opportunities for advancement etc., but they're not even given the chance to pursue them.

[Darknight]

I agree that not everyone wants to be a stockbroker or corporate lawyer. However, a high school guidance counselor needs a college degree, probably a master's degree at some point. I was thinking more in terms of scrubbing floors and picking vegetables, backbreaking work with long hours, terrible pay, and no chance to advance. I've known many adult students who have these kinds of jobs and are desperate to escape them. They see community college as a way to a better life, but it's hard to go to school when you work ten hour days just to feed your family and keep your car on the road. I also see students who make a good living in trade jobs and firefighting but want that "something more" they feel a college degree will give them.

I wonder how the Duggar feels about illegal immigrants coming here to get a better life. You know damn well JB would never ever be caught breaking his back or washing cars for $2 per hr. But I'm sure he would and has done this to others. I see education for everyone. Education is for everyone but college is not. Education is important, I know some people would love to attend college or some sort of school but they can't. They have to apply for jobs and live pay check to paycheck. I think it's sad that the Duggar kids can't have say or choice. And I doubt JB would encourage his kids to work hard and scrub floors taking directions of a person in higher status. Seems to me JimBob feels threaten if he realizes some people are smarter and more educated than him

My friend does have her Master's, it was required for the counselor position, I understand what you were getting at in your original post though. To put things in context with the Duggars, it's definitely frustrating to see their kids pigeon-holed because Boob and Michelle have such a narrow view of the world. They let their kids attend ALERT, volunteer with the fire department and JD has his pilot's license, yet they won't let them join the military, apply for the police/fire academy or let JD work for a commerical airline. They could have real careers with salaries, benefits, opportunities for advancement etc., but they're not even given the chance to pursue them.

I think the only reason these kids get to do those things is to make JB look good and make his kids not question things. His way is the only way. It's like they limit their kids choices and allow them to do things because it's some sort of accomplishment

[BitterApple]

You know damn well JB would never ever be caught breaking his back or washing cars for $2 per hr. 

Although I'm sure he'd have no problem exploiting them for $2 an hour.....