S06.E13: Win, Place, Or Sonja

[sasha206]

Sorry, I'm not sure what one has to do with the other?

I'm disappointed that Kristen didn't slap the hell out of that old lizard but some woman react differently to men's bad disgusting behavior. I wish George did not have a platform to show off this nasty harassment of women.

I however will not some how minimize Ramona's horrible violent behavior because Kristen reaction to another incident was different.

I wish Kristen had been more outraged by George and I agree with those that think Bravo is sending an awful message to women, by finding this perverts actions camera worthy.

George groping Kristen and Ramona throwing a wine glass at Kristen's face both horrible violent and the two people should not be on my TV screen.

Kristen should have demanded an apology from Ramona. Her reaction to George does not change my opinion of that.

 

My point is that I find it very strange that she was not as upset at George that he groped her.  Hell, not only wasn't upset, she laughed it off.   I wasn't suggesting she SHOULDN'T have demanded an apology from Ramona. I just think it is odd to totally excuse groping as a "right of passage" by a disgusting sexual predator but be so upset at Ramona that it lasted a good 3 episodes.  How do you not excuse one assault but excuse the other?

Edited June 8, 2014 by sasha206

[shoegal]

Perhaps Kristin doesn't believe she was assaulted by George. Sexual assault can be subjective, there are things that I would tolerate from a friend or acquaintance that I would not from a stranger. I think it's up to Kristin whether she felt threatened or offended by George, or if she feels she was assaulted.

[Rottiemommie]

her gun moll outfit at Millou's funeral and waving the cigar around at the racetrack, Radzi and Co. should nickname her Bugsy. And she'd love it. She so gangsta.

 

That's gangster. Gangsta is the "holla, I worked with PDiddy, Bitch, ho" etc

Sorry I don't know how to quote yet.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Lisin
Fixed quote

[sasha206]

Perhaps Kristin doesn't believe she was assaulted by George. Sexual assault can be subjective, there are things that I would tolerate from a friend or acquaintance that I would not from a stranger. I think it's up to Kristin whether she felt threatened or offended by George, or if she feels she was assaulted.

 

Apparently she thinks it is funny and perfectly acceptable which is really sad given she is a mother to daughters.  I can't imagine how any woman would think his actions should be tolerated.  

[shoegal]

Apparently she thinks it is funny and perfectly acceptable which is really sad given she is a mother to daughters.  I can't imagine how any woman would think his actions should be tolerated.

I don't think any woman should tolerate it if she feels violated, but not every woman has the same view. I think that you should get to decide for yourself what you will or will not tolerate.

[sasha206]

I don't think any woman should tolerate it if she feels violated, but not every woman has the same view. I think that you should get to decide for yourself what you will or will not tolerate.

 

I'm rendering my opinion that if you are tolerant of an 80 year-old grabbing of your breast unsolicited than you are part of the problem.  And excusing the person who calls it a "right of passage" and laughs about it because hey, it's up to her whether unwanted molestation is offensive to her is also part of the problem.  George will continue to get away with it because there are apparently quite a few apologists for his behavior, even on this board.

Edited June 8, 2014 by sasha206

[LovetoSnark]

Yeah squirting orgasm is a phrase I never thought I would use, thanks Bravo.

I wasn't sure how to respond to your question about "wave link". Excuse my poor use of the English language--- I meant the same train of thought that Andy has . Only comments that are reflecting Andy's position seem to be allowed to be posted. Very few comments that I read --- and I did read a lot were condemning George. Even those comments that were negative IMO were very light criticism of atrocious behavior.

[shoegal]

I'm rendering my opinion that if you are tolerant of an 80 year-old grabbing of your breast unsolicited than you are part of the problem. And excusing the person who calls it a "right of passage" and laughs about it because hey, it's up to her whether unwanted molestation is offensive to her is also part of the problem. George will continue to get away with it because there are apparently quite a few apologists for his behavior, even on this board.

Well, I'm ok with that. I don't believe everyone has to see things the exact same way. If Kristin doesn't feel violated, I'm certainly not going to insist that she should. People have different lines of what they will and will not accept and some people are more comfortable with certain things than others.

Edited June 8, 2014 by shoegal

[comatoast]

I'm rendering my opinion that if you are tolerant of an 80 year-old grabbing of your breast unsolicited than you are part of the problem.  And excusing the person who calls it a "right of passage" and laughs about it because hey, it's up to her whether unwanted molestation is offensive to her is also part of the problem.  George will continue to get away with it because there are apparently quite a few apologists for his behavior, even on this board.

The worst part of all this to me is that it was televised, making it something that could be replayed over and over for any young girl or boy to stumble upon and think, "Oh, this is OK. They're all laughing after all."

[Cheetosandchoc]

I guess we all are not sophisticated enough to get George's humor. Carole reminds me of Slenderman.

[susie hinson]

This is my first time posting on this site. I was "banned" by Howard on TWOP. Forgive me if I've missed this in all of the comments, but the most important thing to me about George's abhorrent behavior since day one is that he's exhibiting this for his grandchildren. Neither Aviva, Reid nor Harry ever seem to protect these children from their grandfather's truly disgusting behavior. How can they even allow their children to be around this man? My husband and I have a son and a daughter. We taught our son to respect women, treat them like ladies (if they act like ladies) as he would his mother, sister and grandmothers. We taught our daughter to expect the same respect and gentlemanly treatment from any man she would date. And they married people who exhibited/expected the same things.  Maybe we're different because we're from a long line of Army officers and southern gentlemen but there's not one woman in this family, now or in the past, who would put up with that kind of rudeness for one second. We'd kick his sorry ass into next Tuesday. And yes, that is a southern saying.

 

 

[DebbieM4]

Sorry, I'm not sure what one has to do with the other?

I'm disappointed that Kristen didn't slap the hell out of that old lizard but some woman react differently to men's bad disgusting behavior. I wish George did not have a platform to show off this nasty harassment of women.

I however will not some how minimize Ramona's horrible violent behavior because Kristen reaction to another incident was different.

I wish Kristen had been more outraged by George and I agree with those that think Bravo is sending an awful message to women, by finding this perverts actions camera worthy.

George groping Kristen and Ramona throwing a wine glass at Kristen's face both horrible violent and the two people should not be on my TV screen.

Kristen should have demanded an apology from Ramona. Her reaction to George does not change my opinion of that.

 

I think there are several differences.  First, Ramona is a bit off the wall for sure but her entire persona does not consist of throwing things at people.  George is all about sexual harassment and sexual assault.  He talks about nothing else and he does nothing else. This is what he prides himself on, and he never lets anyone forget it.  Ramona definitely did something she shouldn't have done.  George definitely IS someone he shouldn't be.  That's a huge difference for me.

 

Second, Ramona did apologize.  Several times.  Whether Kristen felt it was authentic or not, Ramona (at least) went thru the motions. Repeated apologies on at least two separate occasions, the gift of flowers, etc.  At least she was aware that she had done something wrong and knew that it called for an apology.  George sees nothing wrong with what he does and says.  I can't imagine it's even on his radar that apologies might be in order.  Ramona understood that the situation called for an apology.  George will never understand that he should apologize.  While Ramona offers apologies and flowers, George thinks his words & actions are adorable and funny.  A "fake" apology (and we don't know that it wasn't real)  is certainly better than someone who sees nothing wrong with the way he thinks about women and the way he treats them, and shows no sign of stopping or any willingness at all to consider how his actions impact other people.

 

 I would take Ramona's stabs at self-awareness over George's smug attitude that he can do and say whatever he wants any day.  They both were wrong - no question about it.  But Ramona at least acted like a human being afterward, and George never has and never will.  Kristen absolutely was owed apologies by both of them.  Ramona apologized several times.  George did not and no one expects him to.  That's why I don't see the two situations - or Ramona & George - as comparable at all.

[shoegal]

I guess we all are not sophisticated enough to get George's humor. Carole reminds me of Slenderman.

I am certainly not saying that I find George's behavior funny or entertaining, I'm just saying I think Kristin is entitled to react however she sees fit.

[DebbieM4]

 I am much more outraged by George in general. The story line is fake, he seems fake, and he is gross. To me he is gross regardless of whether or not he is groping someone. His relationship and conversation with Aviva is gross. He is completely without intellect or charm. I have no idea what he is doing on my TV and have felt this way since the very first time I saw him.

 

I could not agree more!

 

And the fact that his daughter is one of the most unlikable people on television makes it even more mystifying.  She's not a good villain, not a "love to hate her" character, not interesting, not multi-dimensional.  She's boring, and she doesn't make good television.  All of her crap wore thin really, really quickly, and I don't know why we're being subjected to her or her disgusting father.  From what I can see, there's no upside to either of them at all, and some very definite disturbing behavior that I would prefer not to see or think about.

[Trooper York]

Wait was that too nasty?

 

Sorry.

[sistermagpie]

Perhaps Kristin doesn't believe she was assaulted by George. Sexual assault can be subjective, there are things that I would tolerate from a friend or acquaintance that I would not from a stranger. I think it's up to Kristin whether she felt threatened or offended by George, or if she feels she was assaulted.

 

 

I think honestly a big reason for it is the messages she's getting from those around her. Ramona did something they all agreed was anti-social. They could all say "Who DOES that?" about her throwing the glass. But with George they'd already made a point of his behavior being funny and a right of passage, he himself passes it off as just being a joke, and in situations like that people feel pressured to respond the way everyone is telling them they should. If she had gotten angry it would have been sadly Kristin herself would have suddenly been the one who was breaking the social rules and laughing it off.

 

The sad thing is that's the way a lot of guys like George --bullies and sexual harassers and predators--get away with it. Women especially are even sometimes socialized more than men to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make everyone else comfortable even at the expense of themselves. George counts on that when he pulls this stuff and he gets back up from all the women, including his daughter. Every time he walks into the room he controls the conversation by opening with his crude comments and establishing that all the women in the room as long as he's there are going to be sex jokes.

 

I'm not saying that's what was going on with Kristin--at least consciously--but I didn't really see anything in her behavior that made me think she truly thought anything funny was going on. I just saw somebody laughing because they didn't know what else to do. She did seem to be trying to get away from him when he kept his arm around her and then she ran away, so I didn't get the impression she really enjoyed the interaction.

[comatoast]

I think that the reality is, Kristen probably sees this all very differently. As a model, she probably has been harrassed and groped a fair amount. She might have even been harrassed by people with the authority to impact her financial future. In my younger years I had several friends who had modeled, and they all had stories of things that they routinely put up with in the course of their job; things that other woman would scream about.

This is the problem. I agree completely that Kristin is probably used to this from her modeling days; however, there is no reason for models (or anyone) to be conditioned to put up with this just because it is rampant in that field, especially considering how young models are when they start their careers. It happens because the people who should know better look the other way and put up with it so the younger ones do as they see, and it will continue to happen until someone puts a stop to it. Just like on RHONYC. Last season at the Christmas dinner hosted by Carol, Sonja and Carol both said they did NOT want to be seated next to George, so clearly it isn't all love and giggles in their hearts when they think of him, but then they enable his crap at the engagement party the following season. Kristin has a platform now in which she can let aspiring models know that they don't have to put up with that. Wish she would use it.

 

To be honest, I actually laughed at some things George said last season, and I didn’t know what to think about the erection in Sonja’s back because I didn’t believe he could actually have one. But there seems to be a pattern of viewing women as T & A for him to play with (at least on the show). I also go back to Ramona "deserving" to be fucked by dogs and telling her that he will touch her vagina at her funeral, and those statements just reek of seeing sex as something to be done to women as a tool used to keep them in line.

Wait was that too nasty?

 

Sorry.

For a minute there I thought you were George.

Edited June 9, 2014 by comatoast

[DebbieM4]

I think honestly a big reason for it is the messages she's getting from those around her. Ramona did something they all agreed was anti-social. They could all say "Who DOES that?" about her throwing the glass. But with George they'd already made a point of his behavior being funny and a right of passage, he himself passes it off as just being a joke, and in situations like that people feel pressured to respond the way everyone is telling them they should. If she had gotten angry it would have been sadly Kristin herself would have suddenly been the one who was breaking the social rules and laughing it off.

 

The sad thing is that's the way a lot of guys like George --bullies and sexual harassers and predators--get away with it. Women especially are even sometimes socialized more than men to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make everyone else comfortable even at the expense of themselves. George counts on that when he pulls this stuff and he gets back up from all the women, including his daughter. Every time he walks into the room he controls the conversation by opening with his crude comments and establishing that all the women in the room as long as he's there are going to be sex jokes.

 

I'm not saying that's what was going on with Kristin--at least consciously--but I didn't really see anything in her behavior that made me think she truly thought anything funny was going on. I just saw somebody laughing because they didn't know what else to do. She did seem to be trying to get away from him when he kept his arm around her and then she ran away, so I didn't get the impression she really enjoyed the interaction.

 

I understand laughing because she didn't know what to do at that moment.  But in all the time that's passed, all she's said (as far as I know) is that it was a rite of passage.  Ha-ha.  Sorority stuff.  Boys will be boys.  Is this the way she wants her daughter to think?  George is the most gross example of someone who sees women as objects that I've seen in decades.

 

I agree that she didn't enjoy the interaction, which to me is even more reason for her to have spoken up - if not immediately, then at some point.  And I definitely agree that every time George walks into a room, he controls the conversation.  You hit the nail on the head with that!  But how cool would it have been for Kristen - even after the fact - to speak up and say that he's inappropriate and that women don't have to tolerate behavior like that or have their bodies fondled without their consent.  Yes, the other ladies could do that too, and they haven't either - I get that. (Ramona actually has, and maybe the others just think he's an old fool so they're not all that bothered by it.)  But Kristen did look bothered by it, and she could have not only spoken up on behalf of women in a way that most of us would have applauded, but she also would have given herself a much better storyline than being a misunderstood, long-suffering wife & mother and made herself look a lot less vapid than she's looked so far.  Instead, she laughed it off - not just that night, but up to and including the present time.  Wanting to fit in and not make waves is what has caused a lot of problems for women and other minorities in the past.  Speaking up and taking a stand wouldn't even take that much courage in this case since I think most people (both men & women) would think she was completely justified.

Edited June 9, 2014 by DebbieM4

[sistermagpie]

I understand laughing because she didn't know what to do at that moment.  But in all the time that's passed, all she's said (as far as I know) is that it was a rite of passage.  Ha-ha.  Sorority stuff.  Boys will be boys.  Is this the way she wants her daughter to think?  George is the most gross example of someone who sees women as objects that I've seen in decades.

 

 

Totally agree. She basically just joined in telling everybody that this is totally normal and that this is the way you should react to a strange man meeting you, making lewd comments and then grabbing your breast. Like she's just put out of her mind the feelings that made her want to run away and now she's coming out to say no, no problem, it was all great and makes for a funny story.

[imjagain]

As a person who was abused, I will never ever question why any one excepts certain behavior from someone. It is not about being OK with vile disgusting behavior Sasha206. It is about knowing that people react different to situations. I do not condone George's behavior but I also do not blame the victim for not knowing how to deal with it. So you can call me part of the problem but I don't see it that way. And FYI I have not seen one person on these boards or twop condone George's behavior at all!

Edited June 9, 2014 by imjagain

[maggiemae]

Well, it is a reality show. I am old enough to know the right/social thing to do is take George by the arm away and privately (with cameras rolling) "if you ever touch/insult me again expect a lawsuit....afterall, it is on film."

[Trooper York]

When you sign up for a reality show you sign up to be humiliated. That's just the facts of the matter.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Trooper York

[OhGromit]

Well, I'm ok with that. I don't believe everyone has to see things the exact same way. If Kristin doesn't feel violated, I'm certainly not going to insist that she should. People have different lines of what they will and will not accept and some people are more comfortable with certain things than others.

 

"Violated" isn't a feeling.  It's a verb.  You can violate a law.  You can *be* violated by someone else's transgression.  You can violate someone else's boundaries.  George violated Kristen's boundaries-- we know that.  She said so.  That's not up for interpretation.  "He touched my breast!" or whatever it was she said.  Touching her ass or her breast (can't remember now which it was) is a boundary for her, so she said something b/c he crossed that boundary and she didn't like it (hence, she trotted away from him in her heels).  

 

Now, she did not express outrage over the violation.  That's the difference.  I, like many on this board, am outraged over the physical violation.    There are many occasions when women believe they MUST accept a physical violation so they can be accepted culturally.  It affects all women when a woman's boundaries are not respected, and nothing is said.  So I totally support those who are saying something.  

[Higgins]

I wasn't sure how to respond to your question about "wave link". Excuse my poor use of the English language--- I meant the same train of thought that Andy has . Only comments that are reflecting Andy's position seem to be allowed to be posted. Very few comments that I read --- and I did read a lot were condemning George. Even those comments that were negative IMO were very light criticism of atrocious behavior.

Ok, I understand now. I thought maybe it was some kind of internet social media thing I didn't know about

[jenny2682]

Aviva's major problem isn't the PTSD, agoraphobia, panic attacks that is from losing her leg- it is from growing up with a emotionally incestuous father that probably caused her mother to the bottle. Could you imagine living in a home with a leering lecherous man like that in childhood and adolescence? I can see it now- boy your're beautiful, if you weren't my daughter I would date you, inappropriate hugs. UGH. Her poor mother I am sure drank being around this scum which then let him play the hero/rescuer. What a piece of trash. Bravo stop showing him. PLEASE. It is not cute nor funny nor controversial it is sickening. He is not less dangerous because he is older, he is more so because he feels people will laugh it off because of his age. The women on this show who laugh it off are also to blame- especially Carole. What would her husband and MIL think of this? Trash pure trash. Good for Ramona to call George out on his bullshit. She probably grew up in the same atmosphere and will call a spade a spade. And his ugly misogynist side showed in a nanosecond. Since she is a woman he said the most vile things because she didn't play along and placate his ego. Hand on her vagina when she is dead? Does Bravo not protect those that work for them? That should get his ass kicked off the show alone. Sonya and Carole are losing major points this year.

[SnarkKitty]

Just curious -- has anyone been to the Museum of Sex?  I used to work near there, but never had any interest in going to it.  Looks mostly silly to me.

 

 

I have. It was sort of interesting, a lot of historical artifacts on sex through the ages, chastity items, etc. I went with some friends on our "book club" outing - which started as a book club and ended up just an excuse to hang out, drink wine and go to brunch.

 

What was disturbing to me was their decision to host an anniversary party there (clearly a production inspired move.) It was almost like, if you don't already get it, George is all about the sex! And it's not enough to simply let him be a lecherous, gross, infantile bastard about it, we have to pile on the graphics and metaphors and tee-hees about having a party for him at a Museum of Sex! Like, fucking really, Bravo? All this shit lands at your feet for thinking this is what enertains.

 

Doubling back a few pages:

Matilda Moody wrote:

 

    smashing glass when Ramona threw a plastic glass at Kristen.

This actually has me wondering something. Why haven't any of the women mentioned that the glass was plastic during filming? The reason it stood out is because at the engagement party when the women were discussing how horrible Ramona was, someone actually said "I requested the glasses be plastic" right before Cody was asked if Ramona threw a glass at her.

 

And, yet every episode since the glass throw no one not even Ramona has said that the glass she threw was plastic.

 

 

Again, this all came after the filming was wrapped. During the actual episodes NO ONE not even Ramona has said the glass was plastic. It only came after the episode aired a year and a half after it was filmed.

 

 

I not only caught that bit of phrasing, I also posted the same thing a while back on TWoP, that it was very interesting everything SINCE has been careful to note "plastic glass," but never once was the word "plastic" uttered during the event. And I don't care about blogs and twitter feeds AFTER, if it's important enough to mention now, it would have been then. Plus, why then say "I requested PLASTIC glasses?" Because you weren't cut by a "plastic" glass the last time? Nuh uh. I'm not buying that bullshit. I wasn't buying it before, and I for damned sure am buying it less now that Kristin emphasized plastic only in reference to the type she wasn't going to be worried about.

[ScoobieDoobs]

And FYI I have not seen one person on these boards or twop condone George's behavior at all!

 

No, but several have said either they weren't outraged by George's actions or didn't seem to care or were just generally indifferent.  Some have said or implied his behavior is mostly harmless or commonplace.  That is quite disturbing to me.  But nobody has commented on finding George's behavior hilarious.  That seems to be ONLY Andy Cohen, who finds the act of groping & molesting women hilarious.  

 

Oh, let's not forget George.  He thinks it's hilarious too.  Cuz he was grinning from ear to ear after groping Kristen.  What I'm curious about is whether anyone else watching thinks this is hilarious.  Cuz I think it's repulsive & it makes me wanna stop watching the show if this bullshit continues.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[film noire]

 

If Kristin doesn't feel violated, I'm certainly not going to insist that she should

That's not a viable cultural standard. *snip*  But instead,  we've decided (as a culture and society)  that whatever the lack of personal boundaries in play,  groping, fondling, raping, abusing /etc of women is not on, regardless of the (perverse) tolerance of any one victim.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Lisin

[sasha206]

As a person who was abused, I will never ever question why any one excepts certain behavior from someone. It is not about being OK with vile disgusting behavior Sasha206. It is about knowing that people react different to situations. I do not condone George's behavior but I also do not blame the victim for not knowing how to deal with it. So you can call me part of the problem but I don't see it that way. And FYI I have not seen one person on these boards or twop condone George's behavior at all!

 

First, sorry to hear about your abuse.  I am not suggesting a victim is part of the problem.  I am suggesting that laughing off someone grabbing your boob and calling it a "rite of passage" after the event occurs is part of the problem.  What he did wasn't funny.  To act as though it was sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion.  It was offensive.  It was illegal.  

 

I have a daughter and it pisses me off to no end that there is a gaggle of women (on the show, on the network) that find someone poking another woman with an erect penis and then grabbing another woman's breast as being somehow harmless.  And it pisses me off to no end that Kristin would somehow laugh it off days later.  He is a disgusting pervert.  No man has the right to do shit like that and as a woman I'm offended that Kristin, Bravo and the rest of the gang is laughing this off.

Edited June 9, 2014 by sasha206

[motorcitymom65]

No, but several have said either they weren't outraged by George's actions or didn't seem to care or were just generally indifferent.  Some have said or implied his behavior is mostly harmless or commonplace.  That is quite disturbing to me.  But nobody has commented on finding George's behavior hilarious.  That seems to be ONLY Andy Cohen, who finds the act of groping & molesting women hilarious.  

But isn't this the way with most things - be they illegal or not? Some folks will be pissed off, some folks not so much.  I don't think it is a reflection on the person who does/does not feel the expected emotion. In most cases it has more to do with our backgrounds, our experiences, etc. In pretty much every post I have read, folks are condemning George's behavior as atrocious. Folks don't think that Bravo should be showing it to us and would like it to stop. 

 

As far as I can see, George and the gals are co-workers, That is pretty much the extent of it. I have been hit on and had inappropriate passes made at me by male co-workers over the years, as have a good amount of my friends.  Throw in an after hours work party and some booze, and stuff is happening that is not OK with everyone. For me, it never came to my mind to call the police and file a report on a cocky (literally) co-worker who got touchy at a party. Do other people do this?  It might be illegal, but it would simply never occur to me that this guy should be arrested, nor did I worry that this might mean that he would be doing the same thing to a teenager. What I have done is go to my boss and express my frustrations, as well as making it clear to the guy that it wasn't OK. I know other people who find it flattering. I would assume that everyone will handle it the way they feel is appropriate.  

 

My thoughts are that everyone knows this guy is playing a role to a certain extent. If the guy really is this much of a pervert, and if he really does go around groping folks like this, he didn't start doing it yesterday. It would have been a pattern that has probably been going on for years. As others who have expressed outrage have said, a good number of people who were victims of his unwanted touching would have taken action. Maybe they slapped his hand, his face, or kicked him in the balls. Maybe they told him off. Maybe they called the police. Whatever they did, it would have been clear to him long ago that this was not really OK to most people, which makes me think it strange that he would take his show on the road. 

[shoegal]

As a person who was abused, I will never ever question why any one excepts certain behavior from someone. It is not about being OK with vile disgusting behavior Sasha206. It is about knowing that people react different to situations. I do not condone George's behavior but I also do not blame the victim for not knowing how to deal with it. So you can call me part of the problem but I don't see it that way. And FYI I have not seen one person on these boards or twop condone George's behavior at all!

 

I so, so, so agree with this.  It's not up to me to tell Kristin how she should feel or how she should react, that is her prerogative.  It's not a commentary on George's behavior, it's allowing Kristin the freedom to react how she feels fit and not insisting that she feel violated or assaulted if she doesn't, or putting the onus on her to "stop" George from behaving this way or preventing him from behaving this way in the future.  I feel confident that Kristin has the ability to set boundaries for herself and that she will speak up for herself when she feels it necessary. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by shoegal

[Higgins]

I am certainly not saying that I find George's behavior funny or entertaining, I'm just saying I think Kristin is entitled to react however she sees fit.

Of course she is and we are entitled to not like her. The only difference is, tolerating sexual assault and brushing it off as charming puts all of us at risk. Not liking Kristen harms no one.

[shoegal]

 

The only difference is, tolerating sexual assault and brushing it off as charming puts all of us at risk.

 

 

I think it's offensive to suggest that Kristin's reaction is putting anyone at risk of anything.  George is responsible for George's behavior.  Kristin is not, it's not fair to put that onus on her. 

[Higgins]

I'm sorry I offended you, that wasn't my intention but, I stand by the sentiment. If Kristen and Sonja giggle and accept sexual assault from that old man, he thinks it is okay and in fact he thinks women enjoy his groping. That means he feels free to assault other women because women like it.

[shoegal]

I'm sorry I offended you, that wasn't my intention but, I stand by the sentiment. If Kristen and Sonja giggle and accept sexual assault from that old man, he thinks it is okay and in fact he thinks women enjoy his groping. That means he feels free to assault other women because women like it.

 

There is nothing to suggest that George would stop if Kristin or Sonja or any other woman stopped "giggling" an pushed back, there are men who go to jail for rape and come out and rape again, so even prison is not a deterrent to some people.  It's not up to Sonja or Kristin to control George's behavior, and I suspect George knows his behavior is not OK and doesn't need anyone to tell him that, I also feel confident that George does it for what he gets out of it, not because he believes the women like it.  It's up to George to control his behavior, not Kristin or Sonja. 

[sistermagpie]

I think it's offensive to suggest that Kristin's reaction is putting anyone at risk of anything.  George is responsible for George's behavior.  Kristin is not, it's not fair to put that onus on her.

 

 

I agree it's not up to Kristin--I don't see her as any kind of a villain here. But I do think that part of the reason she reacted the way she did is because the message she's getting from the world around her is that this is the appropriate way to respond, that she's supposed to laugh off her own discomfort and accept that George doing this is funny. When she reinforces that herself it contributes to that same pressure on other people. George is still the only one responsible for pulling this and none of these women should be saddled with the responsibility of making him stop--he knows he's doing wrong. But it is unfortunate that his method of getting away with it totally works--in part because the responsibility is being put on the victims to make a scene (which George himself counts on them not wanting to do). I mean, it's not the job of the men in the room to police anyone else's behavior either, but it would be great if one of the guys said he shouldn't do that--even if the woman herself protested that she wasn't offended--and not from the pov of protecting a particular woman that "belongs" to them in some way. I'll bet there's not a single guy in that room that doesn't know what George is doing and doesn't do it himself because he knows it's predatory. That's also why it's so creepy when the other guys use George as a guide--doesn't Aviva's husband or ex-husband do that? Like the minute George shows up he starts his own sex talk.

[Beden]

 

The sad thing is that's the way a lot of guys like George --bullies and sexual harassers and predators--get away with it. Women especially are even sometimes socialized more than men to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make everyone else comfortable even at the expense of themselves. George counts on that when he pulls this stuff and he gets back up from all the women, including his daughter. Every time he walks into the room he controls the conversation by opening with his crude comments and establishing that all the women in the room as long as he's there are going to be sex jokes.

 

And clearly Bravo condones this or this asshole would have either been kicked out or edited out.

 

 

For me, it never came to my mind to call the police and file a report on a cocky (literally) co-worker who got touchy at a party. Do other people do this?  It might be illegal, but it would simply never occur to me that this guy should be arrested, nor did I worry that this might mean that he would be doing the same thing to a teenager.

*snip*

 

The other point here is that sexual assault, whether it's a grope or more isn't sexual; it's assault. It's a power play, it's an expression of superiority and a means of demeaning another person, it's an expression of contempt.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Lisin

[Lisin]

OK guys, lets tone it down a little please, everyone agrees George is disgusting and everyone is entitled to their opinions about how the show and Kristen handled themselves but I'm seeing this discussion get heated and a bit personal and I don't like it. I've edited out some things from some posts and if it continues to go towards personal attacks on each other I'm going to start handing out warnings and time outs. Thanks. 

[motorcitymom65]

 

*snip*

 

The other point here is that sexual assault, whether it's a grope or more isn't sexual; it's assault. It's a power play, it's an expression of superiority and a means of demeaning another person, it's an expression of contempt.

I asked the question about folks calling the cops in these circumstances because I am generally curious. Others have mentioned that the cops should have been called and I am just wondering if this actually happens? I know that we have some lawyers on this forum who have experience with sexual assault cases. What would the cops say if they were called to a party where folks were buzzed and one of the co-workers grabbed the ass of another co-worker in full view of everyone else at the party? Would they arrest him? If this is routinely done, how do cops get anything else done? 

 

It is interesting to me because we all agree this is an assault (or many of us agree), but the thing that is most interesting is how we are viewing the victim. I am old school - shaming the victim is never OK. It is never OK to make it sound like the victim bares some blame for what they did prior to the assault, or how they react in the aftermath. A vast majority of victims of sexual assault never say "boo" about it. They are scared, they are embarrassed, they feel shame or perhaps feel like they might be blamed. If this is an assault that rises to the level that lots of folks are saying it does, I am dumbfounded that there would be any blame leveled at Kristen. Or certainly that folks would like or not like her based on her reaction. If an assault is an assault, regardless of the danger or threat involved, than surely a victim is a victim, at least IMO. 

 

*Sorry Lisin, I added my post before I saw your warning to move on. Sorry about that!

Edited June 9, 2014 by Lisin

[Higgins]

There is nothing to suggest that George would stop if Kristin or Sonja or any other woman stopped "giggling" an pushed back, there are men who go to jail for rape and come out and rape again, so even prison is not a deterrent to some people.  It's not up to Sonja or Kristin to control George's behavior, and I suspect George knows his behavior is not OK and doesn't need anyone to tell him that, I also feel confident that George does it for what he gets out of it, not because he believes the women like it.  It's up to George to control his behavior, not Kristin or Sonja. 

If someone called the cops on him and pressed charges, he might very well think twice before he does it again.

[sasha206]

OK guys, lets tone it down a little please, everyone agrees George is disgusting and everyone is entitled to their opinions about how the show and Kristen handled themselves but I'm seeing this discussion get heated and a bit personal and I don't like it. I've edited out some things from some posts and if it continues to go towards personal attacks on each other I'm going to start handing out warnings and time outs. Thanks. 

 

I apologize if I've offended anyone with my strong views on the topic.  

Edited June 9, 2014 by sasha206

[zoeysmom]

If someone called the cops on him and pressed charges, he might very well think twice before he does it again.

With RHONYC and "Law and Order SVU", having had a previous crossover (LuAnn was on an episode) it would have been great to have Ice-T, and few other series regulars come in and roust George.  I would have loved to have seen Christopher Meloni come out of retirement to handle George.  Then there could be an SVU episode, "ripped from the headlines" with one of the RHONYC turning up dismembered and George being the primary suspect.  I wonder which RH would make for the perfect SVU victim.  I would go with Kristen or Amanda (the wash out this season).

[Trooper York]

As a man I feel a little uncomfortable when you use the word "snip" when you edit these threads. Especially when I know what so many people want to do to George.

 

I mean....ouch!!!!!!

 

Can we switch that to "edited" or something?

 

Thank you.

[Higgins]

Make him a eunuch.

[Beden]

I also apologise if I've offended anyone (other than George). Not intended. I merely wanted to make the opint that sexual assault, be it verbal or physical, isn't sexually motivated; it's almost always a means of belittling the victim.

[LovetoSnark]

As a man I feel a little uncomfortable when you use the word "snip" when you edit these threads. Especially when I know what so many people want to do to George.

 

I mean....ouch!!!!!!

 

Can we switch that to "edited" or something?

 

Thank you.

 

 

Good one Trooper York. As a nurse I am thoroughly enjoying the thought of the snip to George. LOL

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by LovetoSnark

[Souvlaki]

I think it's offensive to suggest that Kristin's reaction is putting anyone at risk of anything. George is responsible for George's behavior. Kristin is not, it's not fair to put that onus on her.

Nice post Shoegal. You know, I agree that it is not ever good to victim-shame, I am more upset at how it was handled in general, which is why I hope haven't said anything regarding her behavior/reaction that could be interpreted like so, I was only truly sad/disappointed in what I wanted to see happen, but yes, I do not know exactly how Kristin and her history has shaped her perception of men, and what I see as her minimizing the ordeal, imo. I definitely am not going to shame her, nor any victim or their reaction, or however they choose to feel about it. Feelings are just that, they aren't by any means facts. She's got every right to feel how she wants about it or think it's okay. However I will continue to stand by my opinion that what was done to her was wrong in my eyes, and regardless of her saying it's just peachy, I didn't see this reflected in Kristin and her uncomfortable body language that night, (correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember her shuddering and saying "gross." In her TH). I felt terrible for her regardless. What went down and all of my condemnation belongs to George only, the perpetrator. I suppose I still want to stand up for her or any woman that feels this is okay, and part of it is the conditioning Comatoast mentioned. I think it stretches so beyond modeling but I'll not ramble... I'm just amazed when people talk about sexism on its way to being dead, and racism not being such an issue anymore.

It's just a protective thing and under the umbrella of belief I have in feminine equality, and respect for boundaries and respect in general--anyone could have been his victim, man, woman, pre-Op trans, felt any way about it, and I'd be here without a word unchanged. I used to be annoyed that social media had so much involvement in the show, but now I think it might be a good thing because of the collective "nope" on this being a hilarious episode.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Souvlaki

[motorcitymom65]

I go back to my main issue with George - what the fuck is he doing on my TV, and why does he play such a pivotal role the times when he is? He is Aviva's father - nothing more. She is hardly a well-liked Ho'wife, or a long term gal. I couldn't care less about Aviva, so I certainly don't care about her father. Even if he was a nice, charming man, I would be screaming for them to show me more of the stuff I want to see. I want over-the-top parties (Heather's rooftop anniversary party was my fav moment this season). I want house, clothes and shoe porn. Who cares if Aviva's dad is engaged or had a threesome? He can be a nice guy or a pervert. He is still a guy who has no appeal to me because he has nothing to do with what I find interesting on this show.

I cannot believe it took Bravo so many months to cobble together this vast collection of steaming bullshit.

I would love to see the stuff with Lu that got left on the cutting room floor during this epic edit.

[LovetoSnark]

As a man I feel a little uncomfortable when you use the word "snip" when you edit these threads. Especially when I know what so many people want to do to George.

 

I mean....ouch!!!!!!

 

Can we switch that to "edited" or something?

 

Thank you.

Not sure how I pulled up Trooper Yorks comment again....... sorry guys..

Edited June 9, 2014 by LovetoSnark

[ScoobieDoobs]

Eh, Kristen's opinions & actions don't matter much to me.  She chooses to stay with Dickhead, so I pretty much discount what she says & does.  What really annoys & angers me is Andy Cohen saying how hilarious he finds George's molesting bullshit is & Bravo putting this crap up to supposedly entertain us.  I hate watching it & I would bet It's absolutely NOT what most, if not all, viewers want to see.  Why don't they get that?