S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[BigBeagle]

 

If all characters are scumbags sometimes capable of nice stuffs, and that all people remotely genuinely nice all end up dead, why should I care? If all men must die, let them die then.

I agree with this. I know this is a dark show, and a happy ending is probably too much to ask for, but if Show continually beats down the good guys while elevating the bad ones, GoT will get just as boring as if the good guys won all the time.

[SoWindsor]

I'm enjoying grey worm more because I'm so impressed by the actors many talents.

He's also a singer/songwriter.

One of his videos called Stay Inside. "When the underdogs rise again I'll have my time."

The weird mannequins he builds have a Game of Thrones vibe to them. Would love to see his music get more interest.

P.s. Looks like YouTube links don't work here. His name is Raleigh Ritchie.

Edited June 3, 2014 by SoWindsor

[Aethermancer]

Cajones means drawers (furniture).  Cojones means balls.  One small vowel makes all the difference! ;-)

 

 

Spanish is full of booby-trapped grammar.  You can get the spelling correct, but mess up an accent and end up with some rather awkward dialog.

 

"El perro tiene cuatro anos" vs "El perro tiene cuatro años".

[Ronin Jackson]

I don't expect a happy ending by no means, but GRRM and the show should remember to throw a bone here and there to the audience once in a while, just to remind it why they care about the story.

 

 

This is a good point.  Breaking Bad provides a good counter example.  Without giving anything away, there were certainly scenes where bad things happened to people the audience cares about, and those scenes were painful, but the creative team always had enough respect for the audience not to revel in it.  On GOT the writer and showrunners seem to be taking glee in setting up the audience and punching them in the gut.  There is storytelling skill in what they are doing, but it does not seem like it is being done with respect for the audience.

 

I go off the TV show and everything I have seen about Oberyn has shown me that yes---he is a man full of pride and arrogance. It made perfect sense to me that he would be a victim of his own failings. He didn't believe in his own mortality and that is what got him in the end.

 

 

It's not like this has been a consistent theme in Game of Thrones.  Plenty of people have been victimized for something other then their own failings and flaws and plenty others have reveled and succeeded despite their own flaws (granted they may eventually get it).  I don't think Oberyn's death had anything to do with him getting a comeuppance for his pride and arrogance.  It was more about the writer trying to make his story self consciously unpredictable.  Sure it may have made sense that Oberyn's pride got the best of him, but it made no sense that a man who had just been stabbed and was near death would suddenly spring back to life and have enough strength to crush a man's head only to collapse again immediately afterwards.

[Aethermancer]

Only in the North. In Dorne it's "Sand", i.e. Ellaria Sand, the paramour of Oberyn (RIP *sobs*). The other regions apparently have them but since they haven't been said on the show, I don't know them yet.

 

Some other bastard names have been mentioned, but I don't know if ALL of them have been mentioned or explicitly identified as regional bastard names (ie: We know that Snow is for the North's Bastards, but I don't know if the show has explicitly linked all the other names without a careful rewatch).  I don't think it would be a spoiler at all, anymore than identifying the sigils of houses, but better safe than sorry imo.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Aethermancer

[Drogo]

Did Gendry have a last name? 

[Holmbo]

Did Gendry have a last name? 

 

Only bastards of nobel birth will get bastard last names. Of course that does include Gendry but their father will have to acknowledge them as their bastard.

[CeeBeeGee]

it made no sense that a man who had just been stabbed and was near death would suddenly spring back to life and have enough strength to crush a man's head only to collapse again immediately afterwards.

Excellent point. The guy had just gotten STABBED in the STOMACH. That's a serious wound--it's usually fatal in fact. Viscera are involved--heart, lungs, etc. And to be frank when you're as big as the Mountain, you don't need to develop cunning because your advantage is so huge already. (Just like birds have small brains because they don't need to be smart due to their huge advantage--they can fly.)

Guy's been gored a couple of places, including the stomach, he must be exhausted because of the combination of the heat, his size and that armor, and somehow he's able to Jason Voorhees Prince Oberyn? I call bullshit.

[Constantinople]

Excellent point. The guy had just gotten STABBED in the STOMACH. That's a serious wound--it's usually fatal in fact. Viscera are involved--heart, lungs, etc. And to be frank when you're as big as the Mountain, you don't need to develop cunning because your advantage is so huge already. (Just like birds have small brains because they don't need to be smart due to their huge advantage--they can fly.)

Guy's been gored a couple of places, including the stomach, he must be exhausted because of the combination of the heat, his size and that armor, and somehow he's able to Jason Voorhees Prince Oberyn? I call bullshit.

Perhaps Orson reflexively killed one last beetle after the mule kicked him in the chest.

[Mz Anthrope]

Perhaps Orson reflexively killed one last beetle after the mule kicked him in the chest.

 

He could have fallen on one when he landed

[Unknown poster]

I don't find the Mountain's comeback all that far fetched. This isn't a regular man, it's the largest, most terrifying killer in the realm. And he didn't exactly pop up like nothing was wrong. He waited until Oberyn got too close, and tripped him. And once he got his hands on him, it was a foregone conclusion. A mass of 400+ pounds of muscle pinning you down is going to be just about impossible to escape, regardless of how hurt he may be, I should think.

[taanja]

 

He was also a man with a mission

 

 Yes. and in a way blinded by it. Blinded by his need to avenge his sister's death to the point of arrogance.

 

Personally I found that very Greek Tragedy- esque

 

[rozen]

Excellent point. The guy had just gotten STABBED in the STOMACH. That's a serious wound--it's usually fatal in fact. Viscera are involved--heart, lungs, etc. And to be frank when you're as big as the Mountain, you don't need to develop cunning because your advantage is so huge already. (Just like birds have small brains because they don't need to be smart due to their huge advantage--they can fly.)

Guy's been gored a couple of places, including the stomach, he must be exhausted because of the combination of the heat, his size and that armor, and somehow he's able to Jason Voorhees Prince Oberyn? I call bullshit.

 

The Mountain has been a terror of Westeros for at least a decade. There are plenty of people willing to throw their lives away to attack The Hound, and he's small potatoes in comparison. I expect The Mountain to be very cunning because he's probably experienced just about ever type of battle situation because of his job, and every kind of sneak attack from people trying to kill him in retaliation. He's probably been in far less pleasant situations than being stabbed in the gut, and then being politely allowed to rest on the ground while his opponent prances closer and closer to him. 

[TooMuchCoffee]

I have a very hard time believing that a seriously wounded man -speared deep in the gut - even as big as the Mountain is, who was also cut deeply in the back of the leg could roll over on top of another man. I think he would have tripped Oberyn and pulled Oberyn on top of him.  But, whatever.

 

The Mountain has superhuman strength but it takes a lot of force to crush a human skull, well, rip it apart from the eye sockets.  Here's an analysis from that scene in Star Trek.

Crushing a skull with your bare hands

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/05/29/star_trek_into_darkness_could_khan_really_crush_a_skull_with_his_bare_hands.html

 

As for GRRM, dude, you're no Aeschylus. The beetle crushing is getting old. 

Sit your ass down and finish writing the ending to your saga.  

[LadyArcadia]

Squishy grape heads aside, the thing that got me most in this episode was the love and connection shown between Oberyn and Ellaria. I honestly have never seen such intense love between two people on TV.  Sure they've been seen having sex with everything and enjoying themselves.  But, the scene here was pure love. 100% adoration and love for one another. I could feel it.

 

There were so many little moments that caught my attention:  The kisses, were real and passionate. They weren't fake sloppy messy "passionate" TV kisses. They were simple, but deep, meaningful kisses.  Also, while he stood beside her, she had a grip on his arm like she didn't want to let go.  They were connected in a way I've never seen.

 

I'm still in awe. Superb acting by both.

[CletusMusashi]

The stab didn't really bother me. In real life, people rarely die as quickly from abdominal wounds as they do in movies and TV. It may even have been a wound that, under better circumstances, could have been treated with available medicine. Fighting through the pain to attack to Obeyn took some determination, but I've never felt that determination was something Gregor lacked. And the exertion of continuing to fight after the stab did finish him off quickly, probably by making the wound a lot worse than it was before.

But the point above about the head-crushing? Yeah. That took me out of the scene. Either he's just a very, very strong man, in which case he can not crush human skulls by squeezing them, or he's some kind of super-powered ogre or something, in which case every single chop should have been going right through Oberyn's spear shaft.

I put a lot of my nerdity on hold when I'm watching "Game of Thrones." Most of the battle axes being unrealistic designs? Fine. Not knowing the difference between a knife and a dagger? Who really cares? People with two-handed swords hacking at full plate armor instead of halbschwerting at weak points? At least it looks good. But people squishing heads like fruit is just stretching it too far. I think a good rule of thumb is that anything a five year old child might find unrealistic is probably taking artistic license to an unnecessary extreme.

Besides giving us a shoutout to the beetle scene, was there any actual narrative advantage to the scene ending with a skull crush instead of, say, a snapped neck? Or a nice old-fashioned fatal ground-beating? They could still keep the almost-win, the hubris, even the eyeball gouging. But the time to show that level of strength in Gregor was a long time ago, if at all necessary. And, no, chopping through a horse's neck with a gigantic sword is not anywhere near equivalent. Tearing off a horses head would be closer.

Edited June 3, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Aethermancer]

Even if the, ahem, stones and pillars are both gone, and he can feel zero sexual libido, they can still have a romantic relationship.  I mean, he's essentially (assuming he has no equipment left) asexual.  There are people in real life with fully functioning equipment who are asexual.  He may not have a sex drive, but he can still feel emotional love for her (asexual and aromantic are not the same thing), and since there are other ways to have sex than penis-in-vagina it's even possible for him to pleasure her (which he could very well be open to doing if he cares for her - even if he reaches no physical climax, bringing pleasure to someone you love can be very intimate and rewarding). 

 

I feel I have to correct you a bit here, removal of the external genitals does NOT prevent sexual arousal/interest or even (though it is significantly hindered) the capability for sexual climax (via alternative erogenous zone stimulation).  The majority of activity regarding sexual arousal occurs in the brain.   The big difference between the Unsullied here and a real world total eunuch, is that the Unsullied also have been dosed with a drug that has deadened their capacity for feeling pain.  It's not a stretch to imagine that also deadened their capacity to be stimulated via alternative erogenous zones.

 

I just wanted to point out that the lack of external organs does NOT mean an inability to have sexual desire or experience sexual stimulation.

[TooMuchCoffee]

I see that Time magazine addressed the head crushing question.

 

Note:  the article doesn't contain any plot spoilers outside this episode but contains some book information that affects the physics of this discussion. 

The Book Mountain is much bigger than Show Mountain... the article gives his size.

http://time.com/2809061/game-of-thrones-exploding-head/ http://time.com/2809061/game-of-thrones-exploding-head/

[Mz Anthrope]

 

I just wanted to point out that the lack of external organs does NOT mean an inability to have sexual desire or experience sexual stimulation.

This is true, and why using chemical or physical castration does not deter many sex offenders (rapist, pedophiles).  It's much more in the brain than what can be done with genitals.

[Taget]

I agree with this. I know this is a dark show, and a happy ending is probably too much to ask for, but if Show continually beats down the good guys while elevating the bad ones, GoT will get just as boring as if the good guys won all the time.

 

I think one thing to keep in mind is it is based on a series with thousands of pages and a number of books some of which have yet to even be written.  And in terms of the show we're at best half way through the story.  So we're not near the ending.  In fact if anything the story is not even done being set up.

 

You can have a happy ending.  But you need an ending first.

 

The prism I am viewing the series is through that of the zombie apocalypse and I see this part of the story about how through vanity, ambition, and sometimes good intentions gone bad central authority collapses.  We've seen the north turned into chaos due to the collapse of House Stark.  We've seen the Riverlands turned into banditry.  Oberyn's death probably turns Dorne against the Lannisters.  And Cersei has no intention of marrying Loras so something is probably going to happen to turn the Tyrells against the Lannisters.

 

After that you remove Tywin and Lannister authority collapses.  Remove Roose and put Ramsay who is too crazy to really command much respect in charge and the only half civilizing authority in the North collapses.  Save perhaps for the Night's Watch and I think it's a safe bet if not in the next episode than in the future the wall will be penetrated and they will go away.

 

Then you are left in a world where the actors are increasingly like Arya.  Small bands avoiding bands of pirates, barbarians, and zombies.  And on the horizon an army of foreigners with fire breathing dragons who may seem more like further mauraders than liberators to most of the masses.  Particularly if Dany dies and someone else takes control of the juggernaut.

 

That's when the story really begins.  When the fight to save humanity begins.  I see all this as interesting prologue.  Course I could be wrong and my speculation might be baseless.  But it gives me some hope that the grimness is going to take us somewhere.

[Drogo]

Totally agree, LadyArcadia - I would go so far to say that this image is what really got my heart going... not the images of Oberyn's bloodied (former) head. 

 

[KurlyGrl]

 

Did Gendry have a last name?

 

 

Gendry Waters is a major character in the third season. He initially appeared as a recurring character in the first and second seasons. He is played by starring cast member Joe Dempsie and debuts in "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things." Gendry is an unacknowledged bastard son of King Robert Baratheon. He is a skilled blacksmith who was traveling with Yoren to the Wall to join the Night's Watch when he was taken prisoner at Harrenhal. He later escaped with Arya and Hot Pie. After meeting with the Brotherhood Without Banners, Gendry decides to stay with the outlaw group until the red priestess Melisandre arrives to bring him to Dragonstone.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Totally agree, LadyArcadia - I would go so far to say that this image is what really got my heart going... not the images of Oberyn's bloodied (former) head. 

 

I'm pretty sure that's what I looked like while watching. 

[LadyArcadia]

Totally agree, LadyArcadia - I would go so far to say that this image is what really got my heart going... not the images of Oberyn's bloodied (former) head. 

 

 

 

That is an image of despair, heartache, shock, and terror...   Yikes..  MY hair is standing on end seeing that. 

 

I've never seen that actress before this show. She's fantastic.

[TooMuchCoffee]

kurlygrl  -  I don't think that Gendry's last name, if any, was given on the show. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by TooMuchCoffee

[Lady S.]

*looks at pictures above*..Pedro is one sexy man...

 

I assumed Sansa put feathers on the dress to simulate a mockingbird since that is Littlefingers personally made Sigil, also we have never seen any feathered clothing on neither Robyn or Lysa.  Actually since Robyn is technically in mourning, why isn't he also in black, as is Sansa/Littlefinger make a matching set *ugh*.  Littlefinger was looking at Sansa with open LUST, he is very good at hiding his true emotions but we have seen him slip a few times with Sansa. I wonder how long the mask will last until he slips and someone else catches on.

 

Sansa saying"I know what you want" could be a reference to their conversation when he told her he wants everything.

 

While the beetle story was boring, I assume it will come into play at some later date or season.

 

It is probably meant as mockingbird representation (which, btw, is what I assume that glass figurine Uncle Petyr gave Robin was), but fyi the Arryn sigil is a bird, a

falcon

to be precise. You can see it on the knights' shields and banners, and the bird was embroidered into Lysa and Robin's clothes, without feathered decorations.

 

I think Sansa knows what he wants more specifically after that kiss. It's striking that he is less on the ball than Sansa when in conversation with her, she had a ready story for the Vale nobility and a quick answer to Littlefinger for why she helped him, while he took a while to answer about what he wanted on the boat and didn't come up with a good reason to kill Joffrey until she asked him again in the snow and he had to take another pause. Lysa's collusion with Littlefinger forced him to make out with her and then agree to a quickie wedding, but I think his image of Catelyn reborn is a lot less disposable to Lysa. The fact that he actually wants her to make out with him gives her added leverage in a creepy way. She did successfully break that first kiss without Littlefinger holding it against her, perhaps she can lead him on long enough before it goes beyond kissing.

 

Initially, this sounded more to me like the Westeros equivalent of sending your step-son to boarding school, but then it sounded like maybe they were all going together at the end, so I'm confused.

 

 

Yeah, I couldn't tell either. At first I thought it was black, then I thought it was the lighting, then I looked at that photo in the costume thread where it's definitely black, and now I wonder how on earth she managed that. I guess, if she's going out, then the hair colour will help to disguise her, but with the hair and the clothes all at once, it comes across like a cheesy "evil" transformation, like this is Legend or something.

Sansa did say "shall we go?". As for her hair color, synthetic hair dye is a fairly recent 19th century discovery, but methods derived from plants have been around since ancient times.

 

 

I do too. Though I did notice his accent was turning welsh last night.

I don't know about accent (isn't he Irish?) but someone needs to give the man a throat lozenge. It's only recently I've had to turn the volume up to understand his Sansa rhapsodizing.

 

Now if Sansa could ever rule the Vale I'd be scared.  An overwhelming sense of victimhood can legitimize all types of brutality.

Well, yeah, that is the excuse for Cersei and Littlefinger's lack of concern for other human beings. But I think those two were probably wrong inside before life disappointed them so much. Honestly, I doubt how good of a person I'd be going through what the Stark children have, but all of them have retained some of the Stark decency. So I think Sansa has a good chance of not crossing over to the dark side as much as her two twisted mentors did. (I'm really disappointed we never got another delightful Cersei/Sansa heart-to-heart after Blackwater, tbh.)

 

On that note, it's cute that the Hound thinks Lysa still believes in family, duty, honor, considering he would have met the woman during their years at court.

 

6. Edd was actually focused on the positive about the chance that Gilly might have survived the attack on Molestown

I liked that scene, and that Gilly got to come off as the only one to know what to do during the attack.

 

Gotta say, that Orson Lannister rambling went on way too long, but it felt appropriate for the Lannister brothers to reminisce in their remaining time together by laughing about a brain-damaged cousin left unattended until a mule did him in, with Jaime casually mentioning being almost molested by their maester and casually referring to his other interests, with the unvoiced knowledge that he meant incestuous as well as literal swordplay. Tyrion saying that watching Orson made him feel normal rang very true to me, and I don't think it contradicts his soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things because that applies to people he identifies with, not people he feels superior to. (Just look at how Theon's outcast role was first highlighted in the aforementioned cripples and broken things ep by Tyrion mocking him as the Starks' lackey.)

 

Gendry Waters is a major character in the third season. He initially appeared as a recurring character in the first and second seasons. He is played by starring cast member Joe Dempsie and debuts in "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things." Gendry is an unacknowledged bastard son of King Robert Baratheon. He is a skilled blacksmith who was traveling with Yoren to the Wall to join the Night's Watch when he was taken prisoner at Harrenhal. He later escaped with Arya and Hot Pie. After meeting with the Brotherhood Without Banners, Gendry decides to stay with the outlaw group until the red priestess Melisandre arrives to bring him to Dragonstone.

Waters is the name for King's Landing bastards (and therefore the proper name for Cersei's), but Gendry Waters is a fan creation because he is an unacknowledged bastard. There's a video released by HBO about bastards in Westeros, which was spoilerish when it came out and the question first came up here, but it is not anymore since it doesn't contain footage past 4.02 and I've been told HBO-given info is kosher this side of the wall.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Lady S.

[CeeBeeGee]

I've never seen that actress before this show. She's fantastic.

She was in Rome--she played Lucius Vorenus's wife Niobe--and was just as good in that. Terrific actress.

[Aethermancer]

I assumed Sansa put feathers on the dress to simulate a mockingbird since that is Littlefingers personally made Sigil,

 

 

Sansa was often called "Little Bird" by Sandor Clegane (The Hound).  He made a lot of references to her as a caged bird.  A bit of odd foreshadowing as she does seem to be developing into a little version of the mockingbird.

 

 

 

Actually since Robyn is technically in mourning, why isn't he also in black...

 

I don't think men typically dress in mourning black.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Veering a bit off topic but speaking of Aiden Gillen's hoarseness, I hope it's due to overuse or something benign and not something serious. 

[Aethermancer]

Yes, WTF was that ugly necklace? I only viewed it once, but it looked like a big ass prohibition symbol, but why in the world would she wear such a thing?

 

Why?  To tell Petyr "Do Not Touch".

Guy's been gored a couple of places, including the stomach, he must be exhausted because of the combination of the heat, his size and that armor, and somehow he's able to Jason Voorhees Prince Oberyn? I call bullshit.

 

A wound in the gut is painful, but not mortal.  If no arteries were hit, it can take days to die from a gutshot.  With a perforated intestine, you might be a dead man walking facing a VERY long and painful death, but physical activity would certainly be possible.  I've seen deer get shot in the gut and leap/run at full speed for long distances (500 yards or more), and unfortunately they will often live for at least 24 hrs.  (Thankfully I've never had a bad shot, but it happens and I've seen it happen)

The Mountain has superhuman strength but it takes a lot of force to crush a human skull, well, rip it apart from the eye sockets.  Here's an analysis from that scene in Star Trek.

Crushing a skull with your bare hands

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/05/29/star_trek_into_darkness_could_khan_really_crush_a_skull_with_his_bare_hands.html

 

 

The actor playing the Mountain himself is over 400 lbs.   The max load a human skull can withstand is about 520 lbs of force.  A quick pushup would exert more than 500lbs of force if the man doing it is a 400 lb man.

 

Of course, here is the best part of the article you linked:

Unless you are the world’s strongest man, or a dangerous product of a eugenics war, you won’t be pulling off a Khan skull crush.

 

 

Given that the actor IRL actually IS the world's strongest man... I'd definitely call this myth plausible.   (Yes, I think he really did come in third, but I think the statement also applies to the Third Strongest Man in the world as well.)  ;)

[SoWindsor]

Some other observations.

What is the significance of the owl (or not owl) hooting that Gilly hears that meant the wildings were coming?

I just loved Ygritte in the scene. Everything about the way she walked to the choreography of her kills to her shaking hand sssshhhing Gilly.

The nights watch miscounted. Said they are 105 men but after losing 2, they are down to 102. Unless I missed something.

When I first saw the flayed man I thought it was the bald one who was giving reek a hard time (that the other guy put an axe through). That confused me and I wasn't sure if the Bolton's flayed them all.

Wondering why Jorah didn't defend himself more. Guess he was so heartbroken and shocked though he should have done a better job explaining what happened.

[taanja]

 

The guy had just gotten STABBED in the STOMACH. That's a serious wound--it's usually fatal in fact.

 

 

Except...people can live for hours  ---even days --with a gut wound like that.  Sometimes it can take a long time to bleed out.

 

 I assume (I have not read the books nor am I spoiled in any way) that the Mountain will eventually die from his wounds. No way is he coming back from that.

 

I don't know? I found that fight scene plausible.

[Lady S.]

The nights watch miscounted. Said they are 105 men but after losing 2, they are down to 102. Unless I missed something.

You did, it was three men down, Black Jack, Kegs, and Mully.

 

On re-watch, the HBO video I linked contains background info on Ramsay's relationship with Roose. So if anyone just can't be spoiled about that, the relevant info is this, "Westeros has a very strong class structure, the smallfolk, as they're called, they probably produce just as many bastards, if not more than the noble classes but they don't have any surnames. (cut to Bronn introduced to Tywin as son of "you wouldn't know him") The noble houses do have names and when they produce bastards, they can't have his father's name, so they give him a bastard name. Very simple, declarative names, that basically tell you this person has noble blood (cut to Jon Snow and Ellaria Sand) in them, but they are bastardborn (cut to Gendry's noble blood being acknowledged for the first time by family when he meets Uncle Stan). And it differs from region-to-region, in the North you have Snow, in the Vale of Arryn it's Stone, in the Riverlands it's Rivers, in the Westerlands it's Hill, in the Iron Islands it's Pyke, in the Reach it's Flowers, in the area around Kings Landing (also comprising Dragonstone) the name Waters has been used, in the Stormlands it's Storm, and in Dorne it's Sand." So Gendry is no more a Waters than any of Cersei's children since neither Robert nor Jaime ever publicly acknowledged all their bastards.

[dizzyd]

I don't think that beetle story was fore-shadowing of any kind and I think we're giving the writers more credit than deserved to think it was anything significant.  It was just a waste of time, albeit well delivered by PD.  I don't think we needed a monologue of gibberish to know that this was a dead man walking, the ominous music as he walked to the duel was more than sufficient.  In fact, it actually took away from what could have been another meaningful brotherly exchange, possibly one of their last. I actually felt worse for PD having to deliver that BS than I did for Tyrion awaiting his impending doom.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dizzyd

[Jaded Sapphire]

The nights watch miscounted. Said they are 105 men but after losing 2, they are down to 102. Unless I missed something.

They said the names so quickly that they kind of melded together to my ear too. There were three names/guys killed at the tavern.

I put a lot of my nerdity on hold when I'm watching "Game of Thrones." Most of the battle axes being unrealistic designs? Fine. Not knowing the difference between a knife and a dagger? Who really cares?

Well I do now that you've mentioned it lol. What is the difference between a knife and a dagger and when did GOT screw it up?

[Haldebrandt]

I greatly enjoyed Baelor and Red Wedding reaction videos and have watched countless ones.  But these ones are just not enjoyable.  The abrupt reversal from rousing jubilation to acute despair in viewers is just too cruel.

[Meredith Quill]

So Gendry is no more a Waters than any of Cersei's children since neither Robert nor Jaime ever publicly acknowledged all their bastards.

 

Technically, Gendry could consider himself a Waters now because Stannis has acknowledged him since the death of Robert.

 

 

Well I do now that you've mentioned it lol. What is the difference between a knife and a dagger and when did GOT screw it up?

 

I'll take a stab in the dark here (pun intended); I'd say a knife has one cutting edge whereas a dagger has 2? I could be wrong though!

What is the significance of the owl (or not owl) hooting that Gilly hears that meant the wildings were coming?

 

I took it that hooting like an owl was a commonly used means of coded communication between wildlings when in stealth mode, hence, Gilly instantly went on alert.

[Travy1991]

Gendry Waters is a major character in the third season. He initially appeared as a recurring character in the first and second seasons. He is played by starring cast member Joe Dempsie and debuts in "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things." Gendry is an unacknowledged bastard son of King Robert Baratheon. He is a skilled blacksmith who was traveling with Yoren to the Wall to join the Night's Watch when he was taken prisoner at Harrenhal. He later escaped with Arya and Hot Pie. After meeting with the Brotherhood Without Banners, Gendry decides to stay with the outlaw group until the red priestess Melisandre arrives to bring him to Dragonstone.

 

Common folk in the Seven Kingdoms have no last names. If you are a bastard and acknowledged by your noble parent(s), then you receive a bastard surname. This indicates you are of noble birth but have no rights to your House lands or inheritance and are hence stigmatised. Robert didn't even know Gendry existed (and if he did, ignored him) so Gendry was left unacknowledged and has no last name (house name or bastard name).

 

As for bastard surnames, there are nine...one for each region of the Seven Kingdoms. Bastard surnames are as follows:

 

1. The North: Snow
2. The Iron Islands: Pyke
3. The Vale: Stone
4. The Westerlands: Hill
5. The Riverlands: Rivers
6. The Crownlands: Waters
7. The Reach: Flowers
8. The Stormlands: Storm
9. Dorne: Sand

Edited June 3, 2014 by Travy1991

[xaxat]

I liked Oberyn, but had a bad feeling about the outcome going in. His entrance reminded me of this ad for Nos energy drink featuring George St. Pierre. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UErIqKJ35Y

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Indira Varma is a great actress and stunning, been a fan since the film Karma Sutra: A Tale of Love.

 

Wish she had more scenes with Pedro, showing Oberyn and Elleria just talking and enjoying each other's company.  Their bond clearly was more than just sex.

 

 

She also played Luther's ex-wife, on the BBC series starring Idris Elba.

Edited June 4, 2014 by MrsRafaelBarba

[LunaNegra]

 

Why was Tyrion sentenced to die if the Mountain's dead too?   Was the Mountain dead?  I hope so, that was one gruesome death they showed, I wonder how many buckets of blood they had on set for that.  Yikes.

 

I was wondering this too. Since they both died, I would think Tyrion can make the case for a pardon. 

[NJ RadioGuy]

I agree with this. I know this is a dark show, and a happy ending is probably too much to ask for, but if Show continually beats down the good guys while elevating the bad ones, GoT will get just as boring as if the good guys won all the time.

 

If you look at the work that's been telecast so far (or even written to the point we are in the TV show), the "bad" guys die as well as the good. Viserys sold his sister into slavery to the Dothraki and he got his golden crown. Rickard Karstark murdered two children and lost his head. Theon killed two children, executed Ser Roderick and put many others at Winterfell to the sword and look what happened to him (and his sausage). Pyat Pree, Xaro Xohan Ducksauce, the slaver Krasnys, Polliver and the Tickler, Rorge and Biter, Rast, Qarl, Crazy Lysa Arryn and Ser Mandon Moore who came so close to murdering Tyrion if it hadn't been for triPod. And of course, the late and unlamented Joffrey, last of his name. So I don't think it's really too big a stretch to say it's only the "bad" guys who win or get ahead. We're halfway through the series and a lot can happen. If the "good" guys (or at least the ones who are a lighter shade of grey) won every round or hadn't been brought to suffer we'd have had no story, or nothing worth telling or reading about.

 

Think of it this way. At the end of the Empire Strikes Back we find Lando having betrayed Han, Luke and Leia, Han encased in carbonite, Luke short a hand and fearing for his friends' lives after a very devastating prophecy. Yet look how that turned out. Take the analogy even further, if you can stomach thinking of the first three movies, by the halfway point (the end of Revenge of the Sith), we have the Jedi all but wiped out, the rise of Darth Vader and the death of Padmé Amadala.

 

Good storytelling means you have to hurt or kill a lot of the good guys and drag those who remain through hell and back to make their redemption and reascendency hit home in a powerful way. Obviously I don't know how this will end, but I'll bet anybody here a nickel that when the last of the Song of Ice and Fire has been told and the final credits roll (or you close the last book cover) we'll have a Stark back in Winterfell, the end of House Frey, the Lannisters' power gone and the threat from the White Walkers banished. Will we lose more beloved characters before that happens? Probably, but I think it's safe to assume we'll lose a few nasty ones along the way. Keep the faith (of the seven, or the old gods or the Red god or the drowned god....)

[Katalina]

“Please,  show, I'm praying you have some special grusome fate reserved for Ramsay.”

Yes, please—how about being hunted to death?

And what's this about Sansa and her dress putting some in mind of Carol Burnett's curtain-rod dress? I think of Sansa in her go-to-hell black dress as either a Bette Davis moment or a Joan Crawford moment. Can't decide which...While I love her dress, I'm not loving the weird necklace, which looks like a big disco-era plastic belt buckle.

[dizzyd]

On 2nd viewing, I noticed a look shared between Jaime and Varys before the fight.  Am I reading too much into this and getting my hopes up for nothing or did anyone else notice this too?  I'm hoping this means that loving brother Jaime has a backup plan to save Tyrion.  I can't really take another good character dying and to think this season was going so well with the deaths of Polliver, Joffrey, the sickos at Craster's Keep and Lysa.  I may be able to get over Oberyn's death if it is confirmed that the Mountain died too, but I can't handle Tyrion dying or any of the very few characters left for me to root for.

[Starchild]

no one in the show has ever used the word ... eunuch

I'm pretty sure I've heard it several times. It was even used in this episode. When the prostitute was taunting that guy over the size of his equipment she said "When I first saw you naked, I thought you were a eunuch." [paraphrase]

[WicketyWack]

I liked how quickly Jaime came up with "cousin killing" as a type of murder that has no formal name. Clearly he's thought about it. I had forgotten about him bumping off his own cousin until then.

 

Sansa deliberately dragged out that story so that Littlefinger would be tense until the very end, not knowing which way she was going to turn. That scene was riveting and Sophie Turner killed it. And I absolutely believe Littlefinger was referring to himself when he talked about how sickly little boys can grow up to be powerful men.

 

Sansa in the ridic raven outfit was A Bit Much. Kinda reminded me of the scene in Grease where Olivia Newton-John busts out as the totally out-of-character sexpot. 

 

Grey Worm + Missandei 4EVA

Edited June 4, 2014 by WicketyWack

[bluvelvet]

You know something that I found strange, for some reason I think Sansa is trying to look more like her mother. Dunno, her hair is now styled similar to how Catelyn wore hers and while Michelle Fairley and Sophie Turner are not related, when she came down the stairs with that lighting, she looked like a younger version of Michelle's Catelyn..

 

Or maybe it was just the way they highlighted the cheekbones..

[Lady S.]

Good storytelling means you have to hurt or kill a lot of the good guys and drag those who remain through hell and back to make their redemption and reascendency hit home in a powerful way. Obviously I don't know how this will end, but I'll bet anybody here a nickel that when the last of the Song of Ice and Fire has been told and the final credits roll (or you close the last book cover) we'll have a Stark back in Winterfell, the end of House Frey, the Lannisters' power gone and the threat from the White Walkers banished. Will we lose more beloved characters before that happens? Probably, but I think it's safe to assume we'll lose a few nasty ones along the way. Keep the faith (of the seven, or the old gods or the Red god or the drowned god....)

I don't care to defend Evil Santa as a policy, but brava, ser/my lady, I agree with this hopeful sentiment.

[Haldebrandt]

If you look at the work that's been telecast so far (or even written to the point we are in the TV show), the "bad" guys die as well as the good. Viserys sold his sister into slavery to the Dothraki and he got his golden crown. Rickard Karstark murdered two children and lost his head. Theon killed two children, executed Ser Roderick and put many others at Winterfell to the sword and look what happened to him (and his sausage). Pyat Pree, Xaro Xohan Ducksauce, the slaver Krasnys, Polliver and the Tickler, Rorge and Biter, Rast, Qarl, Crazy Lysa Arryn and Ser Mandon Moore who came so close to murdering Tyrion if it hadn't been for triPod. And of course, the late and unlamented Joffrey, last of his name. So I don't think it's really too big a stretch to say it's only the "bad" guys who win or get ahead. We're halfway through the series and a lot can happen. If the "good" guys (or at least the ones who are a lighter shade of grey) won every round or hadn't been brought to suffer we'd have had no story, or nothing worth telling or reading about.

You can't just ad up a bunch of minor characters and say "look, bad guys die too!"  Nothing that has ever happened to the genuine bad guys -- the people the audience has been hating and rooting against for several seasons -- matches the pain, humiliation, degradation and despair visited on Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Talissa, and Oberyn.  The sole exception may be Viserys, who died ignominiously while crying and begging for his life.  That's the kind of fate people wish Joffrey experienced: the knowledge and certainty of your own ruin.  That's what made the Red Wedding so awful.  

 

There is also Theon of course, but his comeuppance was so extreme as to rob it of any satisfaction.  There was no pleasure in that.

 

The scales remain grossly tilted in favor of awful people.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[lawless]

You know something that I found strange, for some reason I think Sansa is trying to look more like her mother. Dunno, her hair is now styled similar to how Catelyn wore hers and while Michelle Fairley and Sophie Turner are not related, when she came down the stairs with that lighting, she looked like a younger version of Michelle's Catelyn.

To the extent she thinks that Petyr wants Catelyn reborn but better -- as someone receptive to him, as both his young protégé and probable future lover -- she was probably going for that effect.  The bird feathers are a nice ambiguous touch, as they could be seen as a sign of favor for either House Arryn or to Petyr's Mockingbird.

 

I liked how quickly Jaime came up with "cousin killing" as a type of murder that has no formal name. Clearly he's thought about it. I had forgotten about him bumping off his own cousin until then.

I hate that he did it in the first place, but I guess it's better that he hasn't forgotten about it.  His scenes with Tyrion were really interesting, and I too wish there had been less beetle thoughts, because it was otherwise interesting to see Jaime and Tyrion in the last meeting together.  The actors give the impression of having a real history together, and one of mutual like, but it sounds like Jaime spent less time with Tyrion than he now wishes he had -- both because who would have thought Tyrion would have ended up in this situation, but perhaps also because Jaime was so consumed with Cersei and her interests, even then, and is beginning to realize what that has cost him.  It seemed like Jaime was realizing that he might really want to confide in Tyrion about some things (like murdering cousin Cleos to escape) but he realizes now, with regret, that it's probably too late.  Tyrion seems to be the one person other than Cersei that Jaime has any ability to confide in -- his only friend, in a way.  It's sad -- sad as in I feel bad for him, but also sad as in pathetic. 

 

In defense of the beetle discussion, however, in a way it makes sense -- both Tyrion and Jaime are trying to make the most of what are likely some of their last moments together.  But given the situation, other than talking about Tyrion's likely imminent demise, what is there to talk about?  They talked about the heavy, serious stuff as much as they probably dared with putting Tyrion in a complete panic and without Jaime having to tell transparent lies in an attempt to calm Tyrion, so once you exhaust that, what do you say under the circumstances?  Can you really make small talk?  Any conversation is going to be forced.  Tyrion brought up a joint experience that had turned into something philosophical in his mind, with terrible relevance to his situation at that moment.  It came gushing out of him -- the apparent cruelty of those in power, and the incomprehensibility of the desire to cause death and suffering to others -- to the only person he has left to talk to.  Jaime let him spill it, because there's little else Jaime can do for Tyrion other than just try to listen and comfort him with his presence.  As an audience member, I would most definitely have preferred to hear more about their life together as kids, but on the other hand, would they really talk about that in that situation?