S07.E13: All You Wanted To Know

[ZoloftBlob]

The reason why I noted this is because there is a huge difference between taking care, treating and relating to a newborn versus a child who can communicate/is older.

 

I'm not sure the relevance then since millions of people who aren't pediatricians, let alone neonatologists, manage to take care of, treat, and relate to children who are older and can communicate.

[Everh]

Perhaps they're thinking about their eventual 15-year-old son, who might not want to have televised examinations of his toilet training challenges (IF he has any) to explain to his peers. Not that he won't be mortified by something else that his folks did. If he's a normal kid growing up, their mere existence will humiliate him at some point. But this one seems like a no-brainer for two loving, capable (and still fairly "new") parents. Maybe they feel it's TMI for an anonymous audience - which it is. I like the idea that they might have limits and err on the side of sensitivity when setting them.

Compared to all the self-absorbed, negligent, even dangerous freaks in the world - some of whom also have their own TV shows - Will and Zoey are pretty darn lucky to have these two as parents.

Then they should of not filmed the scene in the car where they talked about the terrible odor coming from Will and how it took two of them to change one diaper.

Also, it looks like they talked to TMZ about Wills "poop".      Looks like they chose publicity over parenting.                

http://www.tmz.com/2013/04/27/little-couple-tlc-jennifer-arnold-bill-klein-son-video/

I'm not sure the relevance then since millions of people who aren't pediatricians, let alone neonatologists, manage to take care of, treat, and relate to children who are older and can communicate.

4leafclover was referring specifically to Jen and I responded

[LegalParrot81]

Everh, I think if you go back to the episode where Bill is taking Zoey to the clinic in India the first time, his voice over says that he wished Jen was there too because she is the pediatrician and knows what questions to ask.

[Everh]

Everh, I think if you go back to the episode where Bill is taking Zoey to the clinic in India the first time, his voice over says that he wished Jen was there too because she is the pediatrician and knows what questions to ask.

Yes, in a medical setting, not parenting.    Big difference.

[4leafclover]

Pediatricians know about developmental milestones for children--both average and those with special needs.  I seriously doubt Jen ignores her own professional knowledge when it comes to Will's speech and his potty habits.  People are looking for problems where there aren't any.  Enough already. 

[ZoloftBlob]

4leafclover was referring specifically to Jen and I responded

 

Yes - I just don't see the issue. 4leafclover was suggesting that giving medical advise to a pediatrician is silly. I might not agree with that, but whether she is a neonatologist or a pediatric surgeon, she's still a pediatrician and to get that designation, you do have to have some of the basic training. Your followup was that, and correct me if I am wrong, Jen doesn't have experience with toddlers due to her speciality. My point? Neither do any first time parents - but Jen still has more specialized training considering children and their medical needs than say, a cocktail waitress so its still a fair point. Not a huge point, I agree, but still valid.

 

4leaf clover - I am going to disagree with you a bit in that Will is getting speech therepy so there's obviously a problem there. The toileting is hopefully addressed because it could become a problem.

Edited May 30, 2014 by ZoloftBlob

[4leafclover]

Zoloftblob--I meant people are looking for problems with Jen and Bill's parenting skills where there aren't any--it appears that they are addressing the issues, not ignoring them.  I am amused by those who refuse to give Dr. Arnold the credit of years of pediatric training and feel their advice trumps her knowledge.

[jodo]

Everh, I think if you go back to the episode where Bill is taking Zoey to the clinic in India the first time, his voice over says that he wished Jen was there too because she is the pediatrician and knows what questions to ask.

 

I think Bill does a great job at always talking up "his wife" as being so needed in general however when it came to them having the kids medically cleared to leave their countries and seal the adoption process he didn't want her asking questions!  

 

In China he cautioned Jen in the hotel room to put on her Mom's cap instead of her doctor's cap and not raise any red flags about Will's possible ear infection which she was concerned about.  

 

In India he stopped himself from going further with the doctor who at first told Bill after weighing and measuring her that she might have achondroplasia.  Bill looked surprised and said well she fits the definition of achondroplasia and the doctor said it might be too soon to tell.  Bill went on to say she is still smaller than those charts and then stopped himself and in the voice over he said when you can have a doctor's ear in another country you tend to want their take on it.  However I think he realized himself he should leave it alone.  

 

I wonder if Zoey was misdiagnosed with achondroplasia in the first place and if that might have changed the outcome as she maybe shouldn't have been on that adoption website under that category.  I wonder if that is why they aren't concerned about her repeating all the tests that Will had in Delaware.  

[jodo]

Pediatricians know about developmental milestones for children--both average and those with special needs.  I seriously doubt Jen ignores her own professional knowledge when it comes to Will's speech and his potty habits.  People are looking for problems where there aren't any.  Enough already. 

It is just a discussion point.  

[BitterApple]

I think Bill was smart enough to just nod and smile so the doctor would give him the okay to get Zoe the hell out of India and back to Houston where she could be properly diagnosed.

Regarding Will, they've mentioned him starting pre-school and usually you have to be potty-trained for that. I know Jen has brought up developmental milestones in her TH's, so I'm assuming any areas where Will is lagging are being addressed.

[jodo]

I think Bill was smart enough to just nod and smile so the doctor would give him the okay to get Zoe the hell out of India and back to Houston where she could be properly diagnosed.

Regarding Will, they've mentioned him starting pre-school and usually you have to be potty-trained for that. I know Jen has brought up developmental milestones in her TH's, so I'm assuming any areas where Will is lagging are being addressed.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.  Bill stopped when he realized he himself almost fell into the trap he had warned Jen about...asking too many questions which might delay getting the hell out of Dodge!

 

Ok what are TH's?  And I am sure being potty trained is a prerequisite for school.    

[CousinAmy]

We had a toddler in our preschool program who had a much-larger-than-normal head size, very short and chubby arms and legs. It looked to me that he had dwarfism, but I was told by the teacher that they couldn't tell at two years old. So maybe it's too soon for Zoey to be diagnosed. And she is just a tiny, under-nourished (but absolutely captivating) child. 

[Jellybeans]

Ya know, there are very few children that are not potty trained so that's what I think. They all eventually learn to pee and poop in the toilet. And.... boys learn to put the lid down.

Don't argue with me about whether the lid goes up or down. It goes DOWN. Thank you. :-)

I think Bill does a great job at always talking up "his wife" as being so needed in general however when it came to them having the kids medically cleared to leave their countries and seal the adoption process he didn't want her asking questions!  

IMH, that is what makes Bill and Jen a good team. They look out for each other. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. They compliment each other very well. In the case of Zoey, he wanted Jen there but she was sick. She was not there.

[BitterApple]

Lol, TH is TWoP lingo (old habits die hard:). TH=Talking Head, meaning the individual interviews they do in between scenes.

[mbutterfly]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.  Bill stopped when he realized he himself almost fell into the trap he had warned Jen about...asking too many questions which might delay getting the hell out of Dodge!

 

Ok what are TH's?  And I am sure being potty trained is a prerequisite for school.    

Edited May 30, 2014 by mbutterfly

[millk]

My sister pointed out that it looked like Kate's Steve followed Jen through customs in India so she didn't fly home totally alone.

 

(edited to take out potty issues comment)

Edited May 31, 2014 by millk

[Bella]

 

Don't argue with me about whether the lid goes up or down. It goes DOWN. Thank you. :-)

 

This!

 

As for the potty conversation, it looks like most of you have stated your opinions more than once, which should be sufficient. So let's try hugging it out and moving on, okay?

 

"Uncle Dave" is still very concerned about this forum and its unique issues, btw. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, see this post from the forum administrator: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/7461-a-note-from-the-mods/#entry90192 . 

[walnutqueen]

One little snippet from the episode I enjoyed was showing both Will and Zoey do the stand up without using hands "trick".  It always cracks me up - they look like a jack-in-the-box, the way they just seem to pop up effortlessly.  :-)

[mbutterfly]

One little snippet from the episode I enjoyed was showing both Will and Zoey do the stand up without using hands "trick".  It always cracks me up - they look like a jack-in-the-box, the way they just seem to pop up effortlessly.  :-)

I think Jan said that popping up relates to center of gravity (or some such principle of physics) in dwarfism. Would it be extreme to suggest that implies Zoey is a little person? 

[LazyToaster]

In talking about the personality traits reference, I think it is natural for parents (no matter how they became parents) to search for that connection to their kids. It is like someone claiming their newborn looks just like them when to me the baby might look more like Winston Churchill.

[4leafclover]

While I think Zoey is very beautiful and sweet, I also see signs of achondroplasia when I look at her pictures.  Slightly prominent forehead, shorter and slightly bowed legs and arms, short stubby fingers and a slightly disproportionate trunk.  If there are degrees of dwarfism, she could certainly fall under "mild."  At least at the age she is now.  As far as we know, she doesn't seem to have the breathing issues that are common with this diagnosis, nor does she seem to have much of a weight issue, which is likely why we don't know as much about her issues from what we see on the show (it just simply seems as if she doesn't have many issues as of yet).   And as previously pointed out, she can do the neat little sit-up-in-one-move-sans-arms trick.  

[constantknot]

I'm not so sure Will is ready for pre-K or K-4 since, as someone here once said, "he has fewer words than Boy in 'Tarzan'"...  Certainly hope they're as concerned about this as they were prior to his ear tubes being placed.  What is going on there?  Perhaps if they took away the electronic device he seems to always have in his hand (I'm no techie, but looks like he watches vidoes on that thing) and put him among other children, his speech would -- by necessity -- improve...  Expecting pre-packaged questions and answers.  It's TLC!

I think his delayed speech makes him an excellent candidate for pre-K. That's the great thing about an early intervention program - they will work on speech and language skills at school. I bet Will would have an absolute blast at school with his buddies, he's such a social guy. 

 

I was pleasantly surprised to see that Bill addressed the Zoey Outfit Scandal. On a practical note, it totally makes sense to have a diaper change and why not change into a new outfit? I know if I were taking her home (especially a mom armed with adorable girlie clothes!) I would have been itching to put a new outfit on her that I had picked especially for her. Re-watching the scene where Will meets Zoey was just as sweet as I remember. I didn't think for a second that it was staged. 

 

I have been loving all the Will & Zoey moments this season, but it was nice to see some classic Bill & Jen together. They are such a lovely couple and it's so obvious how much they care for each other (quirks and all!). 

[ZoloftBlob]

Eh, my niece could do that until she was about 3. She's not a dwarf but she was kind of a squat kid.

 

Mind you, I agree that Zoey is probably a dwarf of some sort and we probably aren't seeing all sorts of medical tests etc because perhaps... there's nothing wrong with her. Will clearly had some hearing impairment and the sleep apnea. Maybe Zoey... not so much. Despite being at the crappier orphanarium.

[4leafclover]

 

perhaps... there's nothing wrong with her

 

Zoey was adopted at a younger age than Will (19 months vs 3 years old), so I'm sure that worked in her favor too.  Am I correct in remembering that the home Will was in knew about his hearing issues?  If so, I wonder why nothing was done medically before he was adopted?  Earlier intervention could have meant fewer speech problems later on.  

[ZoloftBlob]

Being adopted at 19 months is part of why I kinda wonder if maybe she was just tiny and a bit weirdly shaped. I admit, I will be amused if three years from now she is the tall one.

[Lillybee]

Since Zoey was only 15 pounds when she was almost 2, it seems that she has some issues. All my kids were 15 pounds at about 6 months.

[ZoloftBlob]

Lilybee, most likely yes. The kid is probably a dwarf and I am just speculating. But she doesn't have the disproportionate look, and she's from a country where boys get fed before girls and girls get dumped in the corner in favor of a boy child. Granted, I have probably seen the episodes of Law and Order with the "baby" adoptions where the parents find out their baby is really a starved 2 1/2 year old too many times.

[BitterApple]

Regarding Will and Zoe not interacting with other children, do you all think that's just a by-product of being in the orphanage? Third world cultures aren't exactly known for tolerance towards those with disabilities and anomalies, so maybe they were shunned by the other kids and had to learn to play on their own. Just food for thought...

[Rohirrim]

 

While I think Zoey is very beautiful and sweet, I also see signs of achondroplasia when I look at her pictures.  Slightly prominent forehead, shorter and slightly bowed legs and arms, short stubby fingers and a slightly disproportionate trunk.  If there are degrees of dwarfism, she could certainly fall under "mild."

 

 

Plus, I've noticed her "trident" hands.  I agree, Zoey is one of the cutest kids I have ever seen!

[Absolom]

She's very tiny. One of Bill's concerns in India and also expressed by Jen before they left for India was that Zoey wasn't even on the achondroplasia growth chart. She was smaller than the 5th percentile of kids with achondroplasia.

[jodo]

Regarding Will and Zoe not interacting with other children, do you all think that's just a by-product of being in the orphanage? Third world cultures aren't exactly known for tolerance towards those with disabilities and anomalies, so maybe they were shunned by the other kids and had to learn to play on their own. Just food for thought...

Maybe in Zoey's case but we will never know as that part of her life was not shared or known.  She seemed to be so tiny she might have just been left in a crib or passed from one caregiver to another.  Will's case was totally different at New Day which is an orphanage for kids with special needs who often require surgeries and most of the babies are abandoned.  There are a lot of videos of Will (Josiah) and he is playing with other kids all the time either on their own or in planned activities.  What we don't see them doing here is playing with other kids.   

 

Here is a link to a video of Will/Josiah taking his first steps and from there you should be able to see more on vimeo!  Will was and is a DOLL!

Edited May 31, 2014 by jodo

[TigerLily20]

I also wonder if because we see Zoey around Bill, Jen, and Will all the time if that makes her look more of a "normal" size?  Like I would like to see her beside a child who is her age, I think then her tiny stature would probably stand out more.  I think part of it is just a matter of who we are use to seeing her around, like when I see Jen and Bill's kitchen it doesn't occur to me that their counters are probably a good foot or 2 shorter than mine, it all looks proportional.  Just my 2 cents on the issue.

[Absolom]

That's why I've mentioned that at 4 Will is shorter than my average sized grandson who is 2 and close to Zoey in age. If she looks tiny compared to Will, she is tiny compared to average sized 2 year olds. She looks small but not extremely tiny when compared to her family. I think it's sad that Zoey is so tiny, but since she is I'm glad she's with Bill and Jen. It gives Jen a chance to hold and carry one of her children and Jen is so small that Zoey will have that as a guide in the future.

[jodo]

I think Jan said that popping up relates to center of gravity (or some such principle of physics) in dwarfism. Would it be extreme to suggest that implies Zoey is a little person? 

Jen (not Jan) did say one theory as to how it happened which Bill disagreed with and gave his theory, who is right is beyond me, I just wish I could do it!

[Jellybeans]

I love seeing those cutie-pies getting up without their hands!

[BitterApple]

jodo, thanks for the link. I was unaware Will's orphanage was for special needs kids. Zoe's orphanage didn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies, she's a very lucky little girl to have gotten out of there.

Has it been mentioned whether Bill is having his back surgery any time soon? The poor guy looks like he's in more and more pain with each episode.

[leighroda]

I mentioned it before, but Zoey does look more in proportion with the rest of the family being little people, but in the Christmas episode where Jenns dad picked her up was the first time I really noticed how truly tiny she is.

[4leafclover]

 

but in the Christmas episode where Jenns dad picked her up was the first time I really noticed how truly tiny she is.

 

Funny you should say that, because I noticed how tiny she was at Will's birthday party when Jen's father picked her up! 

[jodo]

Will was in an orphanage called New Day Foster Home in the care of many caregivers and around many other children all with disabilities.  

 

And Jen was having chemo at the hospital when Zoey came with Bill for her routine check.  Bill said it was completely unnecessary for her to attend as it was of no importance and she should have been resting due to chemo of course.  Her doctor went looking for her to tell her the good news about her cancer readings almost being at zero and chemo would be discontinued.  It was the TLC promos that misled the audience into thinking Jen "got into trouble.."  

Edited June 1, 2014 by jodo

[Absolom]

I think part of the difference in adjustment along with the different personalities is that New Day allowed for a box of items to be sent from the adoptive parents and they told him he was going to a new home and he could see pictures of the new parents and his new room.  They were even allowed to send a toy.  The practice in India didn't allow sending anything and also didn't seem to be to even tell Zoey in advance.  I'm not sure she would have fully understood at 2 but she would have had some idea. 

[shandam]

Will is 4 years old his development in growing seems to not have any effect on his ability to scream to get food or yell at other children for touching a toy. Goodness he is intelligent and as Jens mom told him at lunch do not potty in your pullup. He knew exactly what she said. The parents are making more problems by teaching words such as ck sound for cake and it sounds like he says iowee not ozoey as they imply for cute points. He grunts because Bill taught him to do so. Jen doesn't take a pause when feeding both food and lines , give the kids a chance to think and communicate effectively. Now Zoey who was more advanced in speech has picked up the two syllable sounds. Its not cool. Will is almost always grunting for food or screaming to get his way. It's unfair that Zoey has to be held back in her own development because big brother is spoiled and behaves like an infant. Let him grow up already. Maybe adopting much younger children would have been easier. Will is too stubborn and Jen can't handle him. He has no respect for his mommy. I can only imagine how awful school will be if he behaves this bad. Teachers and students will not tolerate his fits and agressive behaviors. Perhaps in retrospect a child less than a year could have helped develop the close mother child bond and could allow Bill to see will is not a toy or a novelty so teach him to the extent you would any 4 year old you are teaching and talking to him as though he is an infant he knows what he wants he knows how to pull your strings. Life will be hard if you limit him in his educational and social skills because it's cute to people who see him as an underdeveloped child when he is bright strong willed and determined to do as he pleases with zero regard for rules or how his behavior will affect others. Please try and speak to him as you would like to be spoken to.

I wonder if one of the questions will be about Will's potty training and how it's going. I hope and doubt it's not addressed as we saw too much of that on another show. Does he need to be out of diapers for "school" or have things changed these days?

Matt I agree Will is waaaaay to old and smart to not be potty trained. His bm is undoubtedly as that of an adult and Jen can't pick him up much less wrestle the big guy to change a dirty diaper. Bill should help get him trained before school.

[Lillybee]

I don't see Will acting any different than any other 4 year old who has gone through a ton of changes in his short life. He just got a sister who is not a newborn and his mom spent a lot of time in a hospital dealing with cancer and chemo. I think that things like this would affect even birth children. I think that Will and Jen are doing a great job both with Will and Zoey.

[jodo]

I had to laugh out loud last night as I watched an old episode from last season and they had been visiting Bill's family to intro Will and then doing a road trip to St. Petersburg Fla for their 5th anniversary.  So on the road Will poops his diapers.  

 

Then the graphic details start: how stinky it is, Bill says it is nose breathing only then repeats over and over "whoever smelt it dealt it" while Jen says NO....they stop and Jen goes on about the smell and how it is all up and down his legs, asks Bill to help hold Will's legs up as she can't do both then she says now it is on the car seat and on her hand.  And they continue to talk about how absolutely horrible and "stinky" it is and how it took forever to clear the smell from the car afterwards.  

 

Then as if we haven't heard enough about Will's messy stinky poop they do a couch thing where they both go on at length about who is the one who cleans up a poopy diaper better!!  

Edited June 2, 2014 by jodo

[jodo]

"therein lies the rub"....

Edited June 2, 2014 by jodo

[Absolom]

I don't see Will "bullying" Zoey but I do see a lot of typical behavior for a child who has been through a lot in a year.  All of the major events that Will has experienced can cause regression.  He will come out of it, but it is to be expected.  I also had no issue at all with Will running to protect his bike at the playground.  He didn't know those kids or what they were going to do.  I would be keeping an eye on kids who ran up to a bike at the playground.  Sharing is to be expected with someone he knows not with random strangers. 

[jodo]

I think the kids going for Will's scooter in that public playground likely thought oh wow look what else there is to play with here however I do think Bill could have used it as a teaching experience with Will and instead of saying "Will it will still be there" as if that is going to calm a 4yr old down who fears his beloved scooter is being taken away, I do get that.  I think Bill could have said "hey Will let's go meet those kids who want to play with your scooter!" and gone with Will to them and introd themselves and then asked Will if it was ok if the kids played with his scooter while he and Will did whatever.  Will could have met some kids he in fact may see again if they go back to that park and learned a great way to share.  I just don't think the way it went down was beneficial to anyone and just showed Will when someone takes your stuff it is ok to pitch a hissy fit and run and grab it and stow it somewhere so it won't happen again.   I said Bill not Jen because I think Will might have listened better to Bill.   

[Spider]

Will was potty trained in 2016 and that’s ok 

[Chalby]

On 6/1/2014 at 11:39 PM, shandam said:

Will is 4 years old his development in growing seems to not have any effect on his ability to scream to get food or yell at other children for touching a toy. Goodness he is intelligent and as Jens mom told him at lunch do not potty in your pullup. He knew exactly what she said. The parents are making more problems by teaching words such as ck sound for cake and it sounds like he says iowee not ozoey as they imply for cute points. He grunts because Bill taught him to do so. Jen doesn't take a pause when feeding both food and lines , give the kids a chance to think and communicate effectively. Now Zoey who was more advanced in speech has picked up the two syllable sounds. Its not cool. Will is almost always grunting for food or screaming to get his way. It's unfair that Zoey has to be held back in her own development because big brother is spoiled and behaves like an infant. Let him grow up already. Maybe adopting much younger children would have been easier. Will is too stubborn and Jen can't handle him. He has no respect for his mommy. I can only imagine how awful school will be if he behaves this bad. Teachers and students will not tolerate his fits and agressive behaviors. Perhaps in retrospect a child less than a year could have helped develop the close mother child bond and could allow Bill to see will is not a toy or a novelty so teach him to the extent you would any 4 year old you are teaching and talking to him as though he is an infant he knows what he wants he knows how to pull your strings. 

I am enjoying reading these posts in 2020. It reminds me that one can only provide a loving home with consistent rules, outcomes, etc. If we aim the bar high enough, kids will generally show they can achieve even more.