S14.E05: Nightmare Logic

[raven]

Quote

After a hunt gone wrong leaves Maggie’s whereabouts unknown, Sam, Dean, Mary and Bobby race to find her, but what they find are their own worst nightmares.

Airdate 2018.11.08

[Mulva]

Another standout episode!   Sam really got to show off his leadership skills tonight.

[Morrigan2575]

I really liked this episode. Nice balance of characters and relationships. Really enjoyed all the brother scenes and the Dean/Daughter scene.

I didn't pick up on the Nurse being a Jinn until the reveal. However, I loved the call backs to both "What is and What Never Should Be" and "Hunteri Heroici". 

I'm really curious as to what the Jinn saw in Dean. Was a part of Michael still in there?

I also have to compliment the director, I loved that overhead shot of Sam walking down that oddly angled hallway. I don't know if they filmed that on a set or on location but, it looked super cool (for a hallway).  On the other hand the attic set for finding Maggie reminded me of the hidden passage way in the Clue episode.

[Myrelle]

The LeaderSam stuff was as predictable as we discussed in the bitter spoilers thread.

And the Bobby/Mary melodrama was also predictable.

But there WAS some hopeful Michael!Dean stuff that came as a complete surprise to this fan, and the attention to canon where it concerned Dean's experience in WIAWSNB was most welcome.

Apparently Dean is "protected" from Michael's creations. 

This was, by far, the most intriguing aspect of this one to this fan.

And Dean got the kill, too-which always helps make an episode better for this fan.

And Mr. Ackles was  Simply. Gorgeous. in this episode and he got another nice connection with a guest character in this one-one of his strong suits from the early seasons that's been sorely missing in the Dabb era. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[MysteryGuest]

Wow, I thought I was the only one who missed tonight's episode live.  I can't believe only one person has posted so far.  Was it that bad, or that good?  I guess I'll find out when I watch tomorrow.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But there WAS some hopeful Michael!Dean stuff that came as a complete surprise to this fan, and the attention to canon where it concerned Dean's experience in WIAWSNB was most welcome.

Apparently Dean is "protected" from Michael's creations. 

This was, by far, the most intriguing aspect of this one to this fan.

I think some of the spoilers got mistakenly rolled into this episode (no gross eating). On the whole, it was better than expected. The predictable, as you say, was predictable and I literally couldn't care less about Momby, or Leader!Sam. And that is not to say regular Sam - I like it when they are being brothers and hunters - I just roll my eyes over the propping up of Leader!Sam. Just stop trying to make that a thing. Loved the scene between Dean and the Djinn, from the moment he figured it out. That's the Dean I miss. ETA: Dean and the daughter, too. I love how he just backs off when people say back off, and then he lets them come to him. Others could learn from his example.

I guess Momby aren't so worried about Michael being loose in the world as long as they get some alone time in the woods. Oy. Please, let them get eaten by a bear.

The end scene - I love the nuance Jensen put into Dean's mood there. Over all, I liked more than I hated this time.

Edited November 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think some of the spoilers got mistakenly rolled into this episode (no gross eating). On the whole, it was better than expected. The predictable, as you say, was predictable and I literally couldn't care less about Momby, or Leader!Sam. And that is not to say regular Sam - I like it when they are being brothers and hunters - I just roll my eyes are the propping up of Leader!Sam. Just stop trying to make that a thing. Loved the scene between Dean and the Djinn, from the moment he figured it out. That's the Dean I miss.

I guess Momby aren't so worried about Michael being loose in the world as long as they get some alone time in the woods. Oy. Please, let them get eaten by a bear.

The end scene - I love the nuance Jensen put into Dean's mood there. Over all, I liked more than I hated this time.

This. Yes. To everything.

Especially the bolded parts and the part about Momby getting eaten by a bear. ;-D 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

Well my interest is piqued.  Michael has protected his meat suit from his creations.  Smart.  

[patty1h]

During the 'Previously' section, there was a quick shot of treetops at night, then the face of a giant creature looking down over the trees.  What the hell was that?  I confess that I don't always pay 100% attention during the show anymore but how did I miss that?  What episode did that bootleg Mr. Stay Puft show up?

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Pondlass1 said:

Well my interest is piqued.  Michael has protected his meat suit from his creations.  Smart.

I was a little confused here. First the Djinn said he didn't want to damage Michael's meatsuit - like he was making that choice (out of fear?), not that he couldn't hurt it. But then when he tried to get in Dean's head, it seemed to backfire on him. So I guess Michael did protect him? Is that what Eugenie meant by him being 'immune' to evil? Because that's not exactly the same thing.

On another note: in the era of 42 minute episodes and 20 episode seasons, why the feck do they waste two minutes every episode on the "Then" when then was two damn episodes ago. How about you trust that we don't all have short term memory loss? Heh, maybe that's what Jensen meant when he said Michael would last longer than we expect. They are going to show the same three scenes all season long. :)

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well my interest is piqued.  Michael has protected his meat suit from his creations.  Smart.  

I had  hard time hearing exactly what the djinn said about Dean as his vessel, so help please...

[gonzosgirrl]

And on a completely shallow note, goddamn did Jensen look amazing in this episode. Rawr.

[Myrelle]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

And on a completely shallow note, goddamn did Jensen look amazing in this episode. Rawr.

He made me weak in the knees during this entire episode, but the kill and that ending were the best.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I had  hard time hearing exactly what the djinn said about Dean as his vessel, so help please...

He said, "I won't let anything happen to Michael's favourite monkey suit."

[Myrelle]

26 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm really curious as to what the Jinn saw in Dean. Was a part of Michael still in there?

I think it was just the physical resemblance, but he couldn't read Dean's mind, so Michael is still somehow able to afford him some protection from his suped-up monsters.

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He said, "I won't let anything happen to Michael's favourite monkey suit."

Right before his mind probe was rebuffed.

Thank you.

[Pondlass1]

I thought the actress who played the daughter was pretty good.  There’s been some dodgy acting on this show of late, but this episode was ok. Even the djinn nurse didnt go overboard in the evil department. 

If Michael has in fact protected his meat suit from harm, then he’s grown attached and planning on returning.  Hope so 

Dean’s so pretty. Who wouldn’t want to possess him?

[Myrelle]

The djinn also mentioned something about Dean's family and a trap. I didn't hear that part clearly either, though, so help again?...

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

The djinn also mentioned something about Dean's family and a trap. I didn't hear that part clearly either, though, so help again?...

He said 'You think I'm the only one? the only trap? He made dozens of us, just out there waiting for you, and your family."

On re-watching to get that line, I also heard him start to say 'you...' as his blue sparks were rebuffed back at him. Maybe he did see a bit of Michael in there? It was interesting that Dean unloaded the clip into him after he was out/dead. Maybe to make sure he couldn't talk to Sam or Momby?

[Ninamags]

Okay, all those people need to leave the fucking bunker.

Nobody cares, alt-Bobby.

Screw you, Mary. Care more about a god-damned stranger than your own children. And she leaves again, what a bitch. 

They managed to make a  djinn episode boring. God help us. 

So there are more uber-monsters that aren't so easy to kill out there now thanks to Michael. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Ninamags

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He said 'You think I'm the only one? the only trap? He made dozens of us, just out there waiting for you, and your family."

On re-watching to get that line, I also heard him start to say 'you...' as his blue sparks were rebuffed back at him. Maybe he did see a bit of Michael in there? It was interesting that Dean unloaded the clip into him after he was out/dead. Maybe to make sure he couldn't talk to Sam or Momby?

He was very MOCDean-like there, IMO-or not, because OurDean can also be pretty dark like that, at times...

1 minute ago, Ninamags said:

They managed to make a  djinn episode boring. God help us. 

I thought that the Djinn part of it was the only part that wasn't boring, but I guess I can understand if one can't separate or compartmentalize things to a degree, in this one.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He was very MOCDean-like there, IMO-or not, because OurDean can also be pretty dark like that, at times...

I thought that the Djinn part of it was the only part that wasn't boring, but I guess I can understand if one can't separate or compartmentalize things to a degree, in this one.

If I couldn't do that, I really would have to stop watching altogether. LOL!

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If I couldn't do that, I really would have to stop watching altogether. LOL!

I just want an interesting storyline for Dean, at this point. Everything else is white noise to me if I'm given that.

[Triskan]

Wouldnt it have made more sense for everything the djinn does to be a mind trick, an illusion, rather than really have Bobby miraculously recover from such an impossible-to-survive wound ?

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Wouldnt it have made more sense for everything the djinn does to be a mind trick, an illusion, rather than really have Bobby miraculously recover from such an impossible-to-survive wound ?

Not to mention pulling out the blade and managing to stab the illusion with it.  Which...bullets don't destroy an illusion?  Only knives/angel blades?  And I guess paperweights are the new woodchippers to kill anything.  Because the bullets sure didn't do anything the first time.  

ETA:  so what were their "worst nightmares"?  Because AFAICR, only Bobby saw something that upset him (unless the daughter's worst nightmare is vampires.)  

Edited November 9, 2018 by ahrtee

[Female83]

Aside from the AU!hunters and Mary/Bobby which I don't care for, it was a good episode. What was with Bobby's hat? It looked like something that Michael would wear. 

[catrox14]

That was ...underwhelming. 

FYI, Mary, Sam wasn't a born leader....like that was the whole fucking point of his being a follower and being elvated to leader was all about.  That was some shitty retcon writing or was it Mary just thinks Sam was always all that?  WTF.

The only interesting part was Dean talking to the Djinn and the Djinn saying Dean was Michaels favorite meatsuit.  That works for me. 

ETA:  Maggie had no business hunting alone regardless of remote cams or whatever. She's a liability in the field.

[ZennyKenny]

22 minutes ago, Female83 said:

Aside from the AU!hunters and Mary/Bobby which I don't care for, it was a good episode. What was with Bobby's hat? It looked like something that Michael would wear. 

Came here to ask this. Was that intentional? It was weird.

[ahrtee]

A mixed bag for me.  The first 15 minutes in the bunker seemed to be proving my worst fears--and TBH, when Mary reassured Sam that he was a born leader I yelled "fuck you!" at the TV and almost turned it off right there, because I was pretty sure that meant the episode would be Sam fighting his way through a hunt and learning to take charge, trust in his own leadership abilities and accept that sometimes leaders lose people....but luckily, they didn't go that route (yet), though I'm sure it's still in the wings somewhere. 

Anyway, I did think the hunt was good, Dean was played just right--reflective, trying to be hopeful but still realistic, empathetic and badass.  And once I stopped worrying about how Bobby and Mary were going to ruin my enjoyment, I did enjoy.  Until the end, of course, with Bobby apologizing and telling Sam (again) that he's a true leader.  

Of course, what good leader would send off a brand-new, inexperienced person on a solo hunt?  Didn't John teach his boys to have backup?  (I remember Sam being surprised in the pilot when Dean told him he'd been hunting alone, and he'd been trained all his life by John freaking Winchester!)  If anyone needed training wheels (or at least an experienced hunter to act as mentor/backup), I'd think it would be Maggie, and a good leader would recognize that.  There certainly seem to be enough spare hunters around that they didn't have to hunt solo until they were ready.

And then, of course, Sam apparently has to be the one and only person to keep track of all the hunts and hunters, so much so that he doesn't have time to eat or sleep; but he can take off on a hunt leaving...who? in charge?  (And when he returned, the hunters hadn't seemed to even notice he'd been gone.)  So maybe not so indispensable?  At least let the poor man get some sleep. :)

So all in all, other than them trying to cram Leader Sam down my throat, the rest of the ep has some possibilities.  All the "previouslies" about Michael made me expect a little more on that front, and the hints they gave were very confusing, but I guess I'll watch a little longer.  

ETA: Have to type faster.  Catrox beat me to it.

[Bergamot]

When the djinn said to Dean that he was going after hunters because "you told me to", for a second I honestly didn't know he was talking about. I guess because I didn't think that the connection between Michael and Dean was going to come up again. I wonder though why the monsters from last week's episode were not similarly misled?

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well my interest is piqued.  Michael has protected his meat suit from his creations.  Smart.

Yes, that was very intriguing! It's nice to have something to speculate about in regard to Dean.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Loved the scene between Dean and the Djinn, from the moment he figured it out. That's the Dean I miss. ETA: Dean and the daughter, too. I love how he just backs off when people say back off, and then he lets them come to him. Others could learn from his example.

I really liked both of these parts as well. And I agree that the actress who played the daughter was good. She made the character into such a real, three-dimensional person from the moment she appeared.

Unfortunately almost everything else was forgettable. The scenes mentioned above were for me like solid outcroppings of something interesting to watch, rising up out of the big pool of Boring which was the rest of the episode.

Mary discussing her relationship with Bobby -- boring. Bobby discussing his past -- boring. Basically anything at all with either Mary or Bobby -- boring. Anything to do with the AU hunters, or the AU hunters being led by Sam, or Sam worrying about being their leader, or Sam being reassured what a good leader he is -- boring. Those who find these parts of the show absolutely riveting are welcome to them.

I don't think I agree with Sam that all of the AU hunters necessarily need to have their hands held, supposedly because they haven't been hunters before. No, they've only been fighting and surviving, for years, an all-out war against various supernatural creatures -- what skills could they possibly have? Sure, they need someone to give them information, the way that the original Bobby used to provide info for Dean and Sam, but I don't get why they need a general to command them.

Do they really need to all live together in the bunker, and have Sam give them assignments and instructions every time they go out, and never go anywhere on a hunt unless Sam knows about it, and then be required to report back to headquarters afterwards, and when they go on their assignment have to wear a body-cam, and have to check in regularly on a pre-determined schedule? Man, control freak much? Personally I don't think I could live like that myself. More importantly, the whole scenario pretty much drains away a lot of what I found interesting and watchable about living the life of a hunter.

Also, do none of them want to just settle down in this world and live an ordinary life instead of being hunters under Sam's command? (Why exactly does Maggie have to be a hunter at all? Because she's really not suited to it.) If Bobby and Mary can opt out of life in the bunker, why can't others? But I guess if they left to live their own lives, then Sam wouldn't have anyone to be the leader of.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

ETA:  so what were their "worst nightmares"?  Because AFAICR, only Bobby saw something that upset him (unless the daughter's worst nightmare is vampires.)

"Their" worst nightmares meant Bobby's and a couple of PIPs, it seems.

 

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was ...underwhelming. 

FYI, Mary, Sam wasn't a born leader....like that was the whole fucking point of his being a follower and being elvated to leader was all about.  That was some shitty retcon writing or was it Mary just thinks Sam was always all that?  WTF.

The only interesting part was Dean talking to the Djinn and the Djinn saying Dean was Michaels favorite meatsuit.  That works for me. 

ETA:  Maggie had no business hunting alone regardless of remote cams or whatever. She's a liability in the field.

Dabbernatural all around here.

And if Sam is "a born leader" what does that mean Dean has been for the past 13 seasons, Mr. Dabb?

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, patty1h said:

During the 'Previously' section, there was a quick shot of treetops at night, then the face of a giant creature looking down over the trees.  What the hell was that?  I confess that I don't always pay 100% attention during the show anymore but how did I miss that?  What episode did that bootleg Mr. Stay Puft show up?

Wayward Sisters episode, when Sam and Dean are in the Bad Place.

Took them long enough to implement a "No solo hunts" rule.  That should be rule 1.  And of course tonight, all 4 get separated by their own doings.  I agree with leaving somebody behind to protect Sasha, but Bobby had went off by himself, Mary went off by herself to find him, and Sam went off by himself leaving Dean by himself.  Strength in numbers guys, it's an easy thing to remember.

Where in the blue hell is Jack?

Intrigued by why the Djinn recoiled from Dean.

[flyingdi]

I honestly thought that whatever Dean's nightmares were, they were too much for the Djinn to handle.  I did not connect thst to Michael.  I think I need to pay more attention but I'm only really up to date till Season 11.

[ZennyKenny]

So did the Djinn's nightmare-reading powers backfire on Dean, or was he horrified by what he saw?

[Myrelle]

31 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

So did the Djinn's nightmare-reading powers backfire on Dean, or was he horrified by what he saw?

Something happened with the blue sparking lines. They turned back on the djinn as if something was preventing him from reading Dean's mind.

[BabySpinach]

DEAN IS STILL PART OF THE MYTHARC, HALLE-FUCKING-LUJAH! This is everything that should have happened in 14.03: monsters recognizing Dean, confusing him with Michael, trying not to harm the archangel's favorite meat suit. Kaia was such a Mary Sue that she singlehandedly delayed one of the main character's stories by two episodes, it seems. I believe that the Djinn recoiling was due to something that Michael had done. If it had just been the nightmares themselves that unsettled the Djinn, I feel like we would have gotten flashes of what he saw.

The fact that we have no idea, and the "You!" afterwards, makes me optimistic of a more nefarious situation on our hands. Of course Michael would take steps to protect, as Dean himself said in 5.18, this "sweet ass"! And if the Djinn didn't want to harm Dean, it means that Michael fully intends to return to his vessel at some point, and that he likely left Dean on purpose. I gotta say, I'm digging both the mystery and the implication of Dean's enduring status as the strongest, most prized vessel. He's hanging onto the mytharc by his fingernails, it feels, but he's still very much a part of it at present.

Leader Sam is a flop for me. It's hammered in too hard that he's the greatest, bestest, most competent leader there ever was. And this week, Bobby was the designated strawman who dared to question Saint Sam the Great and Powerful, just so he could eat his words at the end of the episode. As with Jack, multiple people trip over themselves to reassure and encourage him, so why the hell should I be invested in Sam's struggles when I know that there's droves of characters just waiting to pick him back up?

Also, the fact remains that sending Maggie out to hunt was FUCKING DUMB. She's a liability who's needed to be rescued/resurrected/looked after in every one of her appearances. Bobby had a point, but he wasn't supposed to be right, so he just wasn't. 

Dean was a natural leader for more than a decade of the show and no one ever brought it up, partly because they didn't need to. Dean SHOWED us how competent he was, how other characters naturally orbited around him, and we were allowed to observe this for ourselves without having it crammed down our throats. Show, not tell! The more I hear about how awesome Chief is supposed to be, the less I'm inclined to believe it. And how about having someone disagree with him for a change and NOT get proven 100% wrong by the end of the episode? How about a balanced conflict of opinion/strategy where both sides concede in some capacity? The debate over killing Michael!Dean would have been perfect for that, but that scenario was apparently a big fat lie on the part of TPTB.

I just LOOOOVE how Sam's insecurities about being a leader are given more screentime than Dean's trauma from archangel possession. And Mary fawns all over Sam, but I don't think she's said a single complimentary thing about Dean, in or out of his presence, since her return in season 12. Not one comforting word to him in this episode, either. 

Mobby still squicks me out due to the chasmic 30+ year age gap, and I also just don't care. Mary would prefer spending time with her new boy toy than her own sons, one of whom is still struggling with a massive trauma? Fine, it's not like I was expecting anything more from her at this point. She can go gallivanting off with Bobby all she wants, as long as she's off my screen. 

Dean and Michael remain my anchor to this season, and I'm genuinely looking forward to learning more about the missing parts of the possession. Dean was competent, personable, and smart this week, too, which was a big bonus for me. As long as these two things are present, I can handle the rest of the stupidity (though not before bitching about it first!).

Edited November 9, 2018 by BabySpinach

[SueB]

A lot to unpack for me in this episode.

First, I totally disagree with Maggie hunting solo. She’s young enough that she ought to be going to school IMO.  I’m glad they’ve instituted a buddy-system for ALL hunters (not just the bunker team).  But Maggie is less capable than Jack without powers.  

I think Sam is a hybrid between Bobby’s old dispatch role and an American MoL leader.  I think his organizational skills, his ideas on body-cams, his check-in approach are all smart. I’m also glad that he seems to be focused on teaching them lore before they go out.  He did a “headcount” for us in this episode.  He’s tracking “16 hunters” plus Mary, AUBobby, Jack & Cas.  There were about half in the bunker.  So the others are cannon fodder (except Maggie — who I think may be a potential Jack love interest some day ... just spit-ballin’ here). Sam not sleeping IS a rookie mistake.  He’ll learn.  But  I think his new role is the natural progression from the BMoL arc.  He saw how effective they were in some operational aspects and he’s cherry-picked some ideas from their approach.  That brief hallway scene in the “THEN” about getting rid of all the monsters  is another clue.  Neither Sam nor Dean would declare themselves the new MoL and start directing existing hunters.  But dump 16 AU war veterans on their hands and channeling that experience into an organized group of hunters makes sense to me.  I wonder if some DID choose integrating into society because I thought more than 16 came through the rift.  

This episode also cements that Michael is the big bad.  He’s like Dick Roman equivalent.  He’s got a plan, TFW sees snippets, but they don’t see the big picture yet. The Djinn reaction was intriguing. I rewatched that scene multiple times.  We’re left with more questions than answers but something is definitely going on with Dean more than being the favorite meatsuit.  And that scene in the kitchen indicates that the trauma is far from over.

I will confess I suspect Djinn pretty soon but I didn’t peg the nurse, I was thinking the gardener.  I like how the mutations are enhancements to the monsters pre-existing skill sets.  

Finally, I’m not sure if Daniel was AUBobby’s biological son or one he ‘adopted’ like Sam and Dean,  I liked how they setup Mary being much closer to Sam now and the way she went overboard to stress she’s only half a day away.  Long term “Mom” on site is a structural issue for the show IMO, I think they have a decent solution for her offscreen existence.  

Good season-arc building episode.  Creepy yet informative. 

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, Myrelle said:

think it was just the physical resemblance, but he couldn't read Dean's mind, so Michael is still somehow able to afford him some protection from his suped-up monsters.

That's wjat I was talking about when he tried to read Dean's fears. I couldn't tell if his reaction was because of something he saw or because of something preventing him. Like was a Michael safeguard in there protecting the vessel for his return?

[trudysmom]

When Bobby let Sam have it, blamed him for Maggie going missing, I was ready to turn off my tv if Dean was going to step in and defend Sam.  Luckily mommy did that and then split them up so she could coddle Sammy, but I fully expected Dean to be the one to tell Bobby he was wrong.  

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think Sam is a hybrid between Bobby’s old dispatch role and an American MoL leader

I remember when they first introduced the MoL storyline how Dean would talk about being Legacies (he's such a goofball at times) and there was a scene over a grave where they talked about being Hunters and MoL and Dean was down on himself (IIRC).  I remember thinking at that time that if the show ever ended it should go with Sam starting up the MoL again and Dean leading a bunch of Hunters. It made sense to me because Sam was always (IMO) just like John and since they introduced Mary and the Campbells in S4 I felt that Dean took after them (Mary).

I do think that it's a good development/storyline for them going forward with Sam going more MoL and Dean remaining true to himself, he's always been a Hunter. That's not to say he isn't a Leader because he obviously is and has been the one everyone followed for years. 

[Aeryn13]

But Sam obviously leads hunter. He gets touted as the consummate hunter and leader. So there is no room for a dual role for both of them because Sam already occupies every possible part.

That part of the episode was just embarassing. It's WAS a bad call to let such an unexperienced newbie hunt but that blemish wasn't allowed to remain in Sam's record. Everyone rushed forward to coddle him and shower him with praise, with the voice of opposition eating crow.

Meanwhile Mary couldn't even pretend to slightly care about Dean. At this point she'd blankly step over his corpse. 

At least we got some intrigue with Dean and he got the kill. The only scenes worth watching really. Along with his convo with the daughter.

[Katy M]

I think Dean is like me.  He just doesn't care about the bunker full of hutners, so why on earth would he want to lead them?  Let Sam do it, if he wants. They are responsible for them, because they promised that they would only come to this universe until they could regroup and send them back.  I hope once they find Michael, the first thing they do is take some of his grace, open a rift, and boot the hunters back where they belong.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean is like me.  He just doesn't care about the bunker full of hutners, so why on earth would he want to lead them?  Let Sam do it, if he wants. They are responsible for them, because they promised that they would only come to this universe until they could regroup and send them back.  I hope once they find Michael, the first thing they do is take some of his grace, open a rift, and boot the hunters back where they belong.

Because they're Mary's and Bobby's responsibility.  She was going to abandon her sons for "her people" and why isn't Bobby leading them. He was their leader in the AU.  It's like Mary dumped all her responsibility in Sam's lap when she lost interest.  She really doesn't' care about anything except her wants and needs. 

Even if Dean's not interested in all the BTS the show could develop Dean and acknowledge that he's a field general.   We've seen Dean be a good mentor to rookie hunters.  There is plenty of room in the story for both Winchesters.  It doesn't have to be either or that they're presenting it or act like Dean never was.

Sam isn't a natural born leader.  He's not even all that good at it.  He's can't make hard decisions for fear he may hurt someone's feelings.  He let Maggie, an untrained rookie hunt solo, and he doesn't trust those around him.  If he did, he designate.  He's put other people in charge and assign tasks so he doesn't have to do it all.  Even the president has a vice president so help take some of the burden off.  Why isn't he doing this?  Why does he think he has to do it all when there are plenty people to help.  No amount of shouting it from the roof tops changes that the tell doesn't match the show. 

The fact is Sam screwed up with Maggie, but that couldn't' be allowed to stand because then Sam wouldn't' be perfect.  Instead he was mollycoddled, and everyone had to reinforce and hold Sam's hand.  Bobby shoudln't have apologized or took back what he said because there was truth to it.

This whole poor poor put upon pitiful me Sam routine is so cringe worthy.  Because it really doesn't need to be that way.  Sam has help available, like his brother.  He's choosing to do it all. 

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

This is everything that should have happened in 14.03: monsters recognizing Dean, confusing him with Michael, trying not to harm the archangel's favorite meat suit. Kaia was such a Mary Sue that she singlehandedly delayed one of the main character's stories by two episodes, it seems. I believe that the Djinn recoiling was due to something that Michael had done. If it had just been the nightmares themselves that unsettled the Djinn, I feel like we would have gotten flashes of what he saw.

The fact that we have no idea, and the "You!" afterwards, makes me optimistic of a more nefarious situation on our hands. Of course Michael would take steps to protect, as Dean himself said in 5.18, this "sweet ass"! And if the Djinn didn't want to harm Dean, it means that Michael fully intends to return to his vessel at some point, and that he likely left Dean on purpose. I gotta say, I'm digging both the mystery and the implication of Dean's enduring status as the strongest, most prized vessel. He's hanging onto the mytharc by his fingernails, it feels, but he's still very much a part of it at present.

I'm going to have to re-watch because I missed the bolded part and it makes a difference because it means that the djinn might have seen something as well as felt the reversal of his power flow.

 

 

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's wjat I was talking about when he tried to read Dean's fears. I couldn't tell if his reaction was because of something he saw or because of something preventing him. Like was a Michael safeguard in there protecting the vessel for his return?

I had originally thought that it was a safeguard, and I still think that it is, but now I'm thinking that he saw someone, too-or a something that looks like someone-archangel grace, possibly.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile Mary couldn't even pretend to slightly care about Dean. At this point she'd blankly step over his corpse.

This is so true and it's such fucked up writing, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean is like me.  He just doesn't care about the bunker full of hutners, so why on earth would he want to lead them?  Let Sam do it, if he wants. They are responsible for them, because they promised that they would only come to this universe until they could regroup and send them back.  I hope once they find Michael, the first thing they do is take some of his grace, open a rift, and boot the hunters back where they belong.

I quite agree with this. Moreso, I think Dean would encourage Sam to take on that role if he wants it, because that's who Dean is. My issue is with the writing/storytelling, forcing the issue with silly speeches and dumb titles (Chief, Sir, etc) and straw-man criticisms from characters that are force to eat crow by the end of the episode, instead of letting it happen organically. You cannot make leadership happen, not in any plausible way.

And it's particularly grinding to have this group of grown men and women who, while perhaps not lifelong hunters in the SPN definition, were soldiers in a war against monsters and angels alike, need to stand around and wait for instructions from their Chief like green newbies. And the actual green newbie (Maggie) is sent out in the world unprepared. Oy. At least they had both Dean and Sam calling our-world hunters to let them know what's happening.

And Mary and Not!Bobby, who were so concerned for these people that they were willing to stay behind in a desolate world to help protect and defend them, are now willing to go off and spend some me-time in the woods, while Michael is in the wind and THINGS ARE HUNTING HUNTERS under his orders. What the actual fuck, show? Please, please, let them both get eaten by a bear.

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Because they're Mary's and Bobby's responsibility.  She was going to abandon her sons for "her people" and why isn't Bobby leading them. He was their leader in the AU.  It's like Mary dumped all her responsibility in Sam's lap when she lost interest.  She really doesn't' care about anything except her wants and needs. 

You posted while I was typing, so I'll just add a +1 to this. I really wonder if Dabb* realizes just how hateful unlikeable they have made Mary? She gets her share of cheerleaders on Twitter, but I have to think they are a minority - unfortunately it seems like those are the only voices Dabb* wants to hear.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Meanwhile Mary couldn't even pretend to slightly care about Dean. At this point she'd blankly step over his corpse. 

This too.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My issue is with the writing/storytelling, forcing the issue with silly speeches and dumb titles (Chief, Sir, etc) and straw-man criticisms from characters that are force to eat crow by the end of the episode, instead of letting it happen organically. You cannot make leadership happen, not in any plausible way.

No doubt.  I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just saying I don't really care all that much, because I don't.  (I can't care about, what I can't care about) If SAm were a natural-born leader, why would it take him 11 or 14 seasons to get there.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  I'm not a natural leader, and I don't want to lead.  If I did, I'm sure if I concentrated all my effort on it for 10 years, I could.  But, we haven't seen Sam struggling to do this all along because, like me, he's a content follower, as long as he can choose what or who he's following.  If everybody were leaders, there would be nobody to follow them.

 

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it's particularly grinding to have this group of grown men and women who, while perhaps not lifelong hunters in the SPN definition, were soldiers in a war against monsters and angels alike, need to stand around and wait for instructions from their Chief like green newbies

Again, I wish everybody would leave except Maggie and Bobby.  Maggie's young, so it make sense for her to need guidance.  And, there are probably some other young'uns.  But, for the most part you're right. They should be shrugging Sam off as being obnoxious or a control freak. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Katy M

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No doubt.  I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just saying I don't really care all that much, because I don't.  If SAm were a natural-born leader, why would it take him 11 or 14 seasons to get there.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  I'm not a natural leader, and I don't want to lead.  If I did, I'm sure if I concentrated all my effort on it for 10 years, I could.  But, we haven't seen Sam struggling to do this all along because, like me, he's a content follower, as long as he can choose what or who he's following.  If everybody were leaders, there would be nobody to follow them.

I agree, and what I should have said was, you cannot make leadership happen in two or three episodes. Unfortunately, I think this is the way Dabb wants to end the series, so it has to happen now.

And it's probably my Dean-goggles, but maybe I can understand Dabb's comment about oxygen-sucking, because when Sam was 'teaching' those hunters and Dean walked in, I could *feel* Sam's  'leadership' being undermined just by Dean being in the room.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

hey should be shrugging Sam off as being obnoxious or a control freak. 

This is how I feel.  Because he really is being one. 

Plus, I still can't think of a reason why these people would follow Chief in the first place.  They should have wanted Michael dead.  If FakeBobby lost a son in the war it makes more sense that Bobby would be leading the AU hunters against Michael rather than them acting like Sam is the 2nd coming. 

Nothing about this story feels organic

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it's probably my Dean-goggles, but maybe I can understand Dabb's comment about oxygen-sucking, because when Sam was 'teaching' those hunters and Dean walked in, I could *feel* Sam's  'leadership' being undermined just by Dean being in the room.

I don't pay any attention to anything anybody associated with the shows says about the show.  I think I'm a much happier person for it:)  I just watch what's on the screen.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And it's probably my Dean-goggles, but maybe I can understand Dabb's comment about oxygen-sucking, because when Sam was 'teaching' those hunters and Dean walked in, I could *feel* Sam's  'leadership' being undermined just by Dean being in the room.

That scene was so awkward. But a thousand times rather this than Dean being one of the flunkies listening to their Chief. 

The thing that just bugs me about this entire storyline is that there is no verbal acknowledgment whatsoever of Dean`s leadership skills when easily Sam could at least commiserate with Dean on the hardship and the burdens of it. The storyline is like Mary, ignoring Dean`s very existance.

One thing I did like in the ep is that in hindsight, if you know Neal thinks the Boss came back to check on him and plays a little game, he does give Dean the occasional look that would be weird otherwise.