S14.E03: The Scar

[Lastcall]

Berens is just about as bad as Dabb. The current writers room needs a complete purge from top to bottom with Singer going with. They could literally pull writers from fan fic sites that would do better than the past three episodes.

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

 

No, it wasn't about saying he was just like Michael. (I don't even know what was supposed to be conveyed by that remark -- that Dean is just like an inhumanly strong and powerful and merciless archangel? That he has been not nice to Kaia?)  It was about bringing up Dean threatening the other Kaia with a gun -- something that was never brought up or discussed or resolved, but instead was reserved just for this special moment, so that Kaia could use it against him in a way that completely stripped it of its context or any reminder of what was going on with Dean when it happened. It was about Dean punching out Kaia, and tying up this little girl with big ropes, and then having the story reveal that Michael had sent monsters to hunt her. It was about Dean threatening to get answers out of Kaia, and have Sam and Jody react with horror and dismay.

It is about having the story go to great lengths to show us how strong and cool and awesome Kaia is, and then have her call Dean weak and bravely heap scorn on him as he ineffectually threatens her. (Have we ever seen Dean be so un-scary and pathetic before when he is threatening someone? Not that I can remember. It's almost like all of sudden we are supposed to see him -- could it be? -- as a weak, ineffectual bully.) It is about having Dean, afterwards, struggle with guilt -- not for "being like Michael" but for being weak and stupid, and not having Sam strongly refute the very idea.

So yeah, absolutely, the narrative does give weight to what Kaia says about Dean. When the angel Flagstaff, in "Stairway to Heaven", who is being interrogated by Dean, scornfully calls him nothing but a killer with oceans of blood on his hands, and says that she hates "men like him" ("Honey, there ain't no other men like me" Dean responds) -- that didn't bother me at all. There have been strong anti-human feelings among the angels from the moment they appeared, and the scene tied into that and into what was going on with the angels at that time, and I never felt like the story was saying that Dean was nothing but a killer -- Flagstaff was.

Now, maybe if later on, the show has Kaia get to know Dean as the strong and good person that he is, and she indicates that she was wrong to say what she said here, then I will happily withdraw my objections. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Or maybe have him actually save Kaia Sue from Michael thus showing him in a more, IDK, heroic light?...

Oh, who am I kidding with this?

+1000 to this whole post anyway.

[BabySpinach]

28 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Or maybe have him actually save Kaia Sue from Michael thus showing him in a more, IDK, heroic light?...

Oh, who am I kidding with this?

+1000 to this whole post anyway.

See, that's the only reason that any competent, thoughtful writer would have Kaia verbally demolish Dean: so that she could be proven wrong later. Otherwise, what's the point of insulting him like that and letting those insults stand? What would be the narrative purpose, except to knock Dean down yet again and even have some of the audience take the remarks at face value, since there's no refutation in sight? The show was guilty of this even in the earliest seasons, having some minor mouthpiece character tear him apart just to get us a closeup of his beautifully anguished face. But those scenes back then actually contributed to Dean's emotional arc and were clearly not a statement of authorial intent. Maybe Jensen is just too good at showing wordless pain, and it's become the writers' lazy go-to to guarantee a certain amount of emotional investment from the viewers.

Spoiler

With the midseason finale being titled The Spear, I shudder at the possibility that Kaia is going to effortlessly save the day again while Dean either epically screws up or gapes at the sidelines. If the story were put together by competent, passionate people who loved the show and the protagonists, that episode would be the point where Dean proves her wrong and does something selfless or heroic. But nah, Sues gotta Sue. Michael's probably going to be all about Kaia now, and the mytharc now looks like yet another hunt for a MacGuffin, a story that is never interesting on its own. Main characters, who? Emotional drama of a lead, what?

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

 

Spoiler

With the midseason finale being titled The Spear, I shudder at the possibility that Kaia is going to effortlessly save the day again while Dean either epically screws up or gapes at the sidelines. If the story were put together by competent, passionate people who loved the show and the protagonists, that episode would be the point where Dean proves her wrong and does something selfless or heroic. But nah, Sues gotta Sue. Michael's probably going to be all about Kaia now, and the mytharc now looks like yet another hunt for a MacGuffin, a story that is never interesting on its own. Main characters, who? Emotional drama of a lead, what?

Spoiler

Well here's hoping that Dabb/Whoever is writing the script remembers Dean picked up the pieces to the archangel killing spear (and that they have a handy witch to redo the spell) or that there is still the Spear of Destiny somewhere in the Bunker.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

I saw an interesting theory on the interwebz that maybe the spear that wounded Michael was made by the Lucifer in the AU and that is why it could hurt him...the flip side of the Michael Lance being created to hurt Lucifer. That is the only explanation I would find acceptable. 

[BabySpinach]

Hey, another plot hole! Why the hell didn't the monsters recognize Dean? If they've been enhanced, they've certainly met Michael, right? Dean has only been free for like a day, so it can't have been Michael in a different meat suit. Yet they just up and attacked their creator's perfect vessel without a hint of confusion or hesitation...

How interesting would it have been if the monsters held back from Dean for fear of Michael's retribution, or even just acknowledged that it was weird to confront their creator's former face? But I guess that would have diverted attention from Kaia Sue to an actual main character, and we can't have that, can we?

[devlin]

The look on dean’s face when he first enters the bunker and finds it full of strangers broke my heart. 

[BoxManLocke]

I'm among the very few users here who actually liked WS, but I can't say I approve of the way it was brought back into the show.

It's very clear they had different plans for Michael but overhauled the entire thing when WS wasn't greenlit. Both storylines feel like they've been binded together with a bunch of shit-quality duct tape. The season didn't feel cohesive or focused before this episode, and it's even worse now.

We're only at episode 3 but I don't see how season 14 can get better plot-wise. You've got a main story that's been cut off when it was just starting, an ersatz of what was supposed to be an entirely different show, and BuckLeming's own shit-of-the-year that's not connected to anything. Good luck making this into something coherent.

Bring on the standalone episodes because that'll probably be the only saving grace of this mess.

[Aeryn13]

Dabb:  "everyone will be really supportive of Dean`s trauma"

Actual episode:  "ahahahaha."

It was about mean Dean being mean to poor woobie Jackie-pooh who just recently said Dean doesn`t matter but not, just as Dean is back, half an episode is devoted to his whiny self again. Because god forbid he doesn`t get 15 mollycoddling pep talks every episode. And now I`m supposed to be worried about his baby self. Urgh. Can they not give the character an edge, actually call him on his whiny shit? 

Then there is super-Kaia, a regular human who could easily kick archangel Michael`s ass who for some reason didn`t explode her into itty little bits. And more mean Dean with hand-wringing from Sam and Jody. Which, my favourite part, Kaia gets to writer mouthpiece on how weak and ineffectual Dean is and just some violent thug at heart. And always has been. Is this this year`s version of Sam`s "hard truths" purge talk on how Dean always sucked as a human being? 

Berens denial is hilarious. As if the episode didn`t speak for itself. And I noticed his salivating tweet about Kaia-Sue. He basically creamed himself over her. You didn`t get your show, get the fuck over it. 

Sam once again badgering Dean to talk to his liking and on his timetable because that is really supportive and empathetic. But I guess Chief knows best. 

Also great how everyone stands up for Dean when his character is being denigrated. *crickets*

And for this shit, they never even gave the Michael storyline the slightest chance. Urgh.

[SueB]

Second watch thoughts - as usual, I pick up on most of what I really like on the second watching.  Skip to TL; DR for the summary.

First, I think Eugenie was trolling the fans when she said Dean would be able to shake off the trauma from Michael - that's the opposite of what happened.  Dean is NOT going to be a quivering mess (unless in a wraith-soaked drugged-brain state).  That isn't him. But we saw in both the writing and acting, the depth of the impact Michael had on Dean.

The main plot is STILL about Michael: the A-plot was not only about Dean's return but also another clue in 'what is Michael up to?' EvilKaia wasn't wrong when she said that what Dean was after was the Spear because it could hurt Michael.  Dean said in the car drive home, he wanted to skip all the "dealing" part and go straight to the part where he gets the special weapon that kills Michael.  And boy oh boy does he want Michael dead. When Dean said he was stupid to say 'yes', it wasn't about the only choice to save Sam and Jack.  It was about thinking he could make a deal with Michael (and Michael would actually HELP).  Michael was and is a snake.  Dean is almost NEVER wrong in his instincts regarding people.  Even in the episode, his instincts that freeing Kaia would help them survive the fight were still spot on.  She did run off to retrieve her weapon, but freeing her was the game-changing move that saved Sam, Jody & Dean.  I love Smart Dean.  And he's berating himself, IMO, because he briefly hoped that Michael would honor their agreement (defeat Lucifer and then leave Dean's body) and he thought 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' alliance would hold.  It didn't.  Most of the time when he makes that gamble, it works.  Not this time.   

"You're like me; you bleed new energy." (Michael vs Kaia): I like how they tied the two of these characters together with that line. And I'm not fussed by Kaia's capabilities.  I don't think she's just a plain slip of a girl with ninja skills.  I think her skills are augmented by whatever her different power source is.  I thought it was normal magic but now I think it might be something else connected to her dreamwalker magic. If Michael could sense her energy ever since being on the planet, than her other-universe existence makes her an anomalous element in this universe.  Of course it draws his attention.  And, as OG Charlie would say, of course she's got the special spear from a different universe that proves to be a threat to the Big Bad.  It's fairly consistent in Supernatural lore that different types of power can have an asynchronous affect on each other.*  So the magic of a 'natural' witch can hurt angel power but Rowena can still be killed by a witch killing bullet.  "Fairy power" can also damage angel/demon power but they have to stop and count dropped salt.  And they almost always have characters who use different power provide insight into the minds of our heroes as well as their opponent.  Again, the leprechaun could sense Soulless Sam.  EvilKaia can trigger** Dean's memories of Michael. So, it's no wonder that with EvilKaia lurking in the woods of Sioux Falls, Michael would be drawn to her.  As an ally, her anomalous element status could be an advantage.  And it came as a surprise to him that her spear was damaging to him.  I think after he was injured, if he could have *poofed* her and her spear out of existence he would have.  Otherwise he wouldn't have sent minions.  And I like the economy of dialog used to get to the point -- Dean also immediately recognized the value of the spear and Kaia knew what he was after.  Beren, IMO, counts on us picking up these details. Kaia verbally went after Dean not just because he was confronting her but because he was the biggest threat in the room in terms of going after her power. 
* See multiple repostings of the theory of energy/frequency analogy of power that I've written up in the Lore thread.
** It took me the second time to get that Kaia was triggering Dean's memories on purpose. 

What EvilKaia wants: IMO is simply to NOT be in the Bad Place and to be left alone.  She didn't want SweetKaia dead.  I think she was protective of her (like DarkCharlie was protective of SweetCharlie).  I think she may have gone after 'the blonde' because of a weird jealousy kind of thing.  I think EvilKaia wanted to be SweetKaia's protector.  I suspect that while SweetKaia's life was a nightmare due to her connection to EvilKaia's and her world, EvilKaia's life was made better by her connection to SweetKaia's non-violent life.  Again, the dual-Charlie story put a similar lore in place.  But if you look at what we saw, EvilKaia was just chillin in the forest til Michael came and kick over that hornet's nest.  EvilKaia's little 'compound' was no longer safe (the three heads being apparently a 'warning' for enemies to stay away). I suspect EvilKaia had set up a new camp nearby to watch for attac connennkers.  If Michael can sense her and just pop in, running away from Sioux Falls 'forest' has no value.  Better to lure enemies to her old compound and then attack.  I don't think EvilKaia wants to go back to the Bad Place and she certainly doesn't want to be used by anyone (good or bad) for her powers.  I have no theories on how the duality of EvilKaia and SweetKaia came into existence.  Maybe that story will be told in the next two years.

"Still okay. I promise." and "How can I be running from something when I'm racing toward it?"  Oh sweet Dean.  Literally NO ONE believes you and everyone wants to help you while giving you your space. I like, again, the dialog shortcut between Sam and Jody: "He's working out something out. And he's working it out alone."  It speaks volumes.  There's no need for anymore backstory. Sam doesn't yet know what aspect of the Michael trauma Dean is 'working out' but he knows Dean is going through something.  I liked that Jody supported Dean using the case to help 'work it out.'  I also loved the Charlie call back when Sam answered Dean's comment about 'racing toward it' with "I don't know. Kind of your thing."  And he's right. I also VERY much appreciate that the case did allow Dean to sort out enough to know that he's 'racing' towards the 'vanquished villain' ending and it's not going to be that quick and easy.  These two have come so far.  Sam offers support, calls Dean out on the obvious repression, and yet gives Dean the space to get to the point where he can talk about it.  The horrific "drowning" analogy was a BIG deal.  Helplessness is Dean's worst nightmare.  It's why he was all action this episode.  And I had no problem with Jody and Sam being concerned that Dean was ready to pull "torture" out of his toolbag and use it on Kaia.  I think they were less concerned about Kaia's health than the fact that Dean was reaching for that option so rapidly.  Dean's expertise in torture comes from his other major trauma (Hell) and using that 'tool' always comes at a price.  Dean doesn't need to heap torture-guilt on top of the rest of the mental shit show he has going on.

"You have the mind and heart of a Hunter" Cas could not have given Jack higher praise.  Jack has basically templated off of Sam (mind) and Dean (heart).  And that praise from Cas is letting Jack know that he's living up to their example.  Watching the second time, I looked for 'Cas-influence' in Jack's actions.  I think his innate kindness is from both Cas & Kelly but I wonder if we will see Cas' influence more on Jack as the season progresses.  Of course hiding the bleeding lungs is Team Free Will 101.   Jack has that aspect down pretty well.  I also liked his "like Sleeping Beauty!" view of the case.  That cheesy amulet could literally have been drawn out of a Fairy Tale -- and I think that's why Jack picked up on it so quickly.  It was so obvious to the audience (and ultimately Jack) but Cas and the AUHunter were not thinking that simplistically.  And Jack desperately needed a win.  That was a really immature decision he made to run away.  I'm glad he was made to see how stupid of an idea that was.  I not fussed by the "After School Special" vibe to that element because Jack IS mentally young and that's the level of lesson that he needs.

Bits that detracted:
- The editing!  I get that there was no connection between the A and B plot so they tried to use "simultaneous 'climax'" to the plots to sort of loosely tie them together.  But honestly, it detracted from both stories.  Not being a professional editor, I'm not sure what would have been the better approach, but I do know that I shouldn't notice editing unless it's something clever or outstanding.  I noticed it for taking away from the story -- not good.
- 82 Hunters in the Situation Room, Zero hunters in the library.  The hunters coming and going en masse to make the 'new dynamic' plot point is an issue.  I understand this is probably budget driven.  They need to either have them there all the time or keep a toteboard in the background suggesting they are out on the road.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I really liked the episode.  I'll watch it at least two more times.  The Michael/Kaia fight scene alone is just gorgeous.  Michael is still the Big Bad, Kaia is just 'different'. I like all the dynamics and that Berens counts on us to get this.  I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea.  

[PAForrest]

13 hours ago, ster1 said:

As a whole, Season 14 hasn't been working for me (at least so far). It feels like the writing is struggling to find cohesion and balance between its multiple storylines. This episode might have worked to help bring things together - Jensen always brings a consistency to Dean, no matter what trauma of the week the poor guy's gone through. I enjoyed the small moments, like Dean's disgust as he stripped off Michael's clothes,  his fear at the sight of the new scar, the expression on both Dean and Cas' faces during their reunion, Sam's smile during Dean's reaction at his beard. Sadly, the episode really went downhill after Super Kaia showed up. I used to be indifferent to Wayward but now,  I resent anything to do with that failed spinoff.  Berens/Dabbs can't let go of their obsession and it's dragging down our show.  Some teen chick singlehandedly overpowering grace-enhanced monsters, 3 highly trained hunters, and a freaking archangel?????  No, no, no.  

If Dabb and Berens are so bitter that they're going to insert their Mary Sues into the mother show no matter what, then they need to move on. A bit of Wayward would have been okay but forcing their vanity project into the mytharc was just too much for me. The last straw was when Super Kaia called out Dean. i don't care what Berens tweeted about authorial intent. The fact that Jody and Sam were clutching their pearls over Dean's treatment of Kaia and didn't stand up for Dean during Kaia's verbal takedown implied that what she said was true. And if Berens (and Dabb) really feel that way about a lead character, then I don't know what to say.

The only surprise to come out of this red tide mess of an episode is that Berens actually felt put upon enough to respond/lie on twitter about his all too obvious authorial intent. He hasn't given a damn in the past that I can recall, so why this time, I wonder?  I guess one small consolation is that some of the fans who are left - and that's seemingly going to become an increasing problem for them - weren't buying what he was trying to sell, and it bothered him for once. At least that was fun.

As for season 14 my feeling is that they had one job - i.e, one story, and it was a decent story - and clearly right after WS wasn't picked up, Dabb and Berens threw an epic hissy and decided to dump that story as fast as they could to turn the mothership into some bastardized form of the show they want to do instead. And now we're left with a whole lot of no story, but lots of bits and pieces of soap opera stuck together with chewing gum.

Normally when I FF through an episode - and I haven't watch a single episode all the way through yet this season - I at least stop to watch anything with Dean in it, but once we got to Kaia Sue and her Magical Sue Spork, the writing on the wall was so obvious that I just didn't want to suffer through what they reduced Dean to after flushing his real story down the toilet. It was embarrassing.

The few seconds of gone all too soon Michael!Dean that we got were indeed hot-hot-hot. And it's nice that Jody continues to fulfill the mother role for Dean and Sam that Mary simply can't because she's nine kinds of horrible. Yeah, it was sort of nice to see TFW working together in the beginning, even though it's completely out of place and time with what was supposed to have been happening up to that point. Dean quipping about Duck Dynasty, fourth-wall busting fun as that was, is too fast and too soon.  A whole lot of potential squandered immediately, and for what?

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

- 82 Hunters in the Situation Room, Zero hunters in the library. 

Did you make that number or were there actually 82 hunters?  That's at least 75 too many.

 

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

They need to either have them there all the time or keep a toteboard in the background suggesting they are out on the road.

Or, have them all go out on a hunt an get blow up.  Problem solved.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or, have them all go out on a hunt an get blow up.  Problem solved.

Yes! Please let this happen! ?

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

I like all the dynamics and that Berens counts on us to get this.

I dunno. This has an implication that doesn't sit well.

I think I 'get' exactly the message he sent. We just wildly disagree on what that message is.

Edited October 27, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Sit not suit. Damn phone.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dabb:  "everyone will be really supportive of Dean`s trauma"

Actual episode:  "ahahahaha."

It was about mean Dean being mean to poor woobie Jackie-pooh who just recently said Dean doesn`t matter but not, just as Dean is back, half an episode is devoted to his whiny self again. Because god forbid he doesn`t get 15 mollycoddling pep talks every episode. And now I`m supposed to be worried about his baby self. Urgh. Can they not give the character an edge, actually call him on his whiny shit? 

Then there is super-Kaia, a regular human who could easily kick archangel Michael`s ass who for some reason didn`t explode her into itty little bits. And more mean Dean with hand-wringing from Sam and Jody. Which, my favourite part, Kaia gets to writer mouthpiece on how weak and ineffectual Dean is and just some violent thug at heart. And always has been. Is this this year`s version of Sam`s "hard truths" purge talk on how Dean always sucked as a human being? 

Berens denial is hilarious. As if the episode didn`t speak for itself. And I noticed his salivating tweet about Kaia-Sue. He basically creamed himself over her. You didn`t get your show, get the fuck over it. 

Sam once again badgering Dean to talk to his liking and on his timetable because that is really supportive and empathetic. But I guess Chief knows best. 

Also great how everyone stands up for Dean when his character is being denigrated. *crickets*

And for this shit, they never even gave the Michael storyline the slightest chance. Urgh.

Thank you for this succinct and perfect post that went right to the heart of everything that this Dean fan also found awful about this episode.

And I was just thinking the same thing this morning as regards the bolded part of it.

So what are the odds that any of what she said will ever be redressed or refuted via the writing of any kind of an actual dialogue concerning those things this time?

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The few seconds of gone all too soon Michael!Dean that we got were indeed hot-hot-hot. And it's nice that Jody continues to fulfill the mother role for Dean and Sam that Mary simply can't because she's nine kinds of horrible. Yeah, it was sort of nice to see TFW working together in the beginning, even though it's completely out of place and time with what was supposed to have been happening up to that point. Dean quipping about Duck Dynasty, fourth-wall busting fun as that was, is too fast and too soon.  A whole lot of potential squandered immediately, and for what?

The fight scene was bittersweet-sweet for how awesome it was-and bitter for the all 10 seconds of it that they deigned to give us, while we got half an episode of WoobieJack Hunter Extraordinaire in Training on Soapernatural, while back on Supernatural the long-awaited(10 YEARS!, folks) Michael!Dean storyline was in the process of being squandered in favor of Berens' Kaia-Sue character who is a "semi-villain" now-oh, and look she's way more badass than Dean or Michael or literally both of those characters put together.

I hate what these writers are doing to this one-time little gem of a show. It's criminal to me, tbh, but the little glimpses that we got of Dean Winchester, the Original Hunter Extraordinaire could have made the episode ten times better, too, if they'd given us more of him-even if they did want and choose to squander Michael!Dean. Dean laser-focused on the hunt never gets old to this Dean fan and the look on his face after he took out Kaia on the porch was what made this little show into the juggernaut of a series that it's become, IMO. 

But they chose to squander that Dean too in favor of Guilt-ridden Dean(again and some more) with Silent Sam(again and some more), his purportedly all-loving brother, by his side once again. 

Boo! Hiss! to Dabb and Berens-again and some more-for their lousy writing choices that are burying this once great show in such an ignominious fashion and manner.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

 Oh sweet Dean.  Literally NO ONE believes you and everyone wants to help you while giving you your space. I like, again, the dialog shortcut between Sam and Jody: "He's working out something out. And he's working it out alone." 

Sam didn't fare that much better under Berens pen here either.  IMO, if Sam understood Dean's way to work it alone, he could have just said to Dean after Dean's first denial or whatever, "I get it, man.  I'll let you alone to work it out".  But Sam yelled at Dean in the car because he wouldn't discuss it.  Then when they were with Jody, Sam says, he's working it out, alone, which implies he must have learned a lesson or Sam wants Jody to think he totally understands Dean.  IMO there was nothing in Jared's acting that implied the former, so I'm going with the latter. IMO, Sam looked like a hypocrite because we saw how he treated Dean in the car, and then presented a different face to Jody about Dean.

IMO, all of that was done to  set up Jody, to be the one who has the understanding of Dean and it gives her and Sam a chance to "bond" with "knowing looks" later on when Dean goes off the rails and they can together looked horrified that Dean would deign to exact harsh treatment on that poor little girl (she's not a little girl) she's at least 17 if not older who admitted wanting to kill Claire and killed Kaia.  

Berens was a more subtle writer under Carver's tenure and IMO he was writing to show Dean in the light Carver intended in s10. I think he is writing Dean and Sam as Dabb wants beginning in s11.. and probably how BuckLemming see him.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I like all the dynamics and that Berens counts on us to get this.  I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea.  

Alternative reading of Berens writing:  He isn't telling a good story about Sam and Dean. He sees Dean exactly as he is presents him from the POV of both Kaias, and that is a bully.  Sam doesn't fare that much better when it comes to that, because he just stands around pearl clutching and giving Dean a bitchface.  The only people in Berens most recent scripts who come out looking like decent humans and super special human are the ladies in his episodes.  Or the poor woobified Jack who is being coddled.   And IMO, because Sam, and especially Dean, are such complex storied, layered characters who still will by default take the focus, Berens deingrates them to support his pet characters, even if it doesn't make any sense storywise.   That is what I think Berens intentions are in the writing and I think he is counting on us to accept that reading and cheer him for putting it out there.

I have more thoughts on Berens writing of Dean but I'll take those to another thread as soon as I can figure out which is the best place. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by catrox14

[BabySpinach]

I have so many questions about the plot in this episode that I'm not sure if it's intentional or just bad writing. That's the problem when there's a lot of missing information in the story and we have to watch it unfold in real time. 

1. How did the fight between Michael and Kaia end? Why would he leave and send monsters to finish the job?

2. Why did he use hand-to-hand combat? Is his grace low because of all the monsters he's creating?

3. When did that fight take place in the three-week timeline? It was after the events of 14.01, since Michael said to Kaia that he was creating a "monster army," but was it before/in-between/after him setting a trap with the enhanced werewolves?

4. If the wound is what made him leave his vessel, why did he do it after it had already scarred over? Dean can't teleport, so Michael was at the same location as Sam, Mary and Bobby before he decided to split for whatever reason. This gives me a slight hope that Michael intentionally left Dean and has a bigger plan.

5. Why didn't the monsters acknowledge or recognize Dean?

And then more general ones about why Michael left Dean, what he's currently up to, blah blah blah.

These questions are literally the only reason I'm still even slightly interested. We're supposed to get more answers in the upcoming episodes, but in concurrence with the general shittiness of the writing and the ridiculous focus on uninteresting side Sues, I'm not that optimistic. This list is also here for me to come back to, just to see if they were ever answered.

Edited October 27, 2018 by BabySpinach

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I have so many questions about the plot in this episode that I'm not sure if it's intentional or just bad writing. That's the problem when there's a lot of missing information in the story and we have to watch it unfold in real time. 

1. How did the fight between Michael and Kaia end? Why would he leave and send monsters to finish the job?

2. Why did he use hand-to-hand combat? Is his grace low because of all the monsters he's creating?

3. When did that fight take place in the three-week timeline? It was after the events of 14.01, since Michael said to Kaia that he was creating a "monster army," but was it before/in-between/after him setting a trap with the enhanced vampires? If the wound is what made him leave his vessel, why did he do it after it had already scarred over?

4. Why didn't the monsters acknowledge or recognize Dean?

And then more general ones about why Michael left Dean. , what he's currently up to, blah blah blah.

These questions are literally the only reason I'm still even slightly interested. We're supposed to get more answers in the upcoming episodes, but in concurrence with the general shittiness of the writing and the ridiculous focus on uninteresting side Sues, I'm not that optimistic. This list is also here for me to come back to, just to see if they were ever answered.

Good idea.

I'll take my reply to the question of why Michael left Dean to the bitter spoilers thread.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I dunno. This has an implication that doesn't sit well.

I think I 'get' exactly the message he sent. We just wildly disagree on what that message is.

 

I meant the ‘show’ versus ‘tell’ combined with the short-hand dialog of people who have worked together long enough that they don’t need a who’s lit of words.  Example: Jack needs everything spelled out.  Jodie needs a phrase and a look. 

If you read ‘get’ = ‘appreciation and like’ vs ‘understand’, perhaps that will clarify me intent.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sam didn't fare that much better under Berens pen here either.  IMO, if Sam understood Dean's way to work it alone, he could have just said to Dean after Dean's first denial or whatever, "I get it, man.  I'll let you alone to work it out".  But Sam yelled at Dean in the car because he wouldn't discuss it.  Then when they were with Jody, Sam says, he's working it out, alone, which implies he must have learned a lesson or Sam wants Jody to think he totally understands Dean.  IMO there was nothing in Jared's acting that implied the former, so I'm going with the latter. IMO, Sam looked like a hypocrite because we saw how he treated Dean in the car, and then presented a different face to Jody about Dean.

IMO, all of that was done to  set up Jody, to be the one who has the understanding of Dean and it gives her and Sam a chance to "bond" with "knowing looks" later on when Dean goes off the rails and they can together looked horrified that Dean would deign to exact harsh treatment on that poor little girl (she's not a little girl) she's at least 17 if not older who admitted wanting to kill Claire and killed Kaia.  

Berens was a more subtle writer under Carver's tenure and IMO he was writing to show Dean in the light Carver intended in s10. I think he is writing Dean and Sam as Dabb wants beginning in s11.. and probably how BuckLemming see him.

Alternative reading of Berens writing:  He isn't telling a good story about Sam and Dean. He sees Dean exactly as he is presents him from the POV of both Kaias, and that is a bully.  Sam doesn't fare that much better when it comes to that, because he just stands around pearl clutching and giving Dean a bitchface.  The only people in Berens most recent scripts who come out looking like decent humans and super special human are the ladies in his episodes.  Or the poor woobified Jack who is being coddled.   And IMO, because Sam, and especially Dean, are such complex storied, layered characters who still will by default take the focus, Berens deingrates them to support his pet characters, even if it doesn't make any sense storywise.   That is what I think Berens intentions are in the writing and I think he is counting on us to accept that reading and cheer him for putting it out there.

I have more thoughts on Berens writing of Dean but I'll take those to another thread as soon as I can figure out which is the best place. 

 

The part in bold: I disagree this was the author’s intent.    

@Katy M made up number— actual number under 30.  

Edited October 27, 2018 by SueB
Staying out of this territory

[Aeryn13]

The entire scene or scenes was written and acted/directed like Kaia was completely right about Dean and noone could say anything in his defense. And I`ve seen people noddig along with it because of course Dean is like she described him, a violent thug. Absolutely nothing played like she wanted to get under his skin. When the episode was going on, Berens had other tweets, one basically about how Kaia is the awesomest ever. I know that he won`t come out on social media and confirm hate-writing for a supposedly main character but his defense just looks like hot air. 

[ILoveReading]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

 For those who didn’t read it, Beren’s said EvilKaia’s harsh criticism was an attempt to get a rise out of Dean, not authorial intent.  

moving to jerk/bitch

Edited October 27, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

*discussing elewhere*.

 

I deleted my comment as I belatedly realized it was leading to BvJ.  My phone was too slow to get it fixed before you posted.  I’ll post my response in BvJ.

Edited October 27, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I deleted my comment as I belatedly realized it was leading to BvJ.  My phone was too slow to get it fixed before you posted.  I’ll post my response in BvJ.

I'll move my response as well to be on the safe side

[companionenvy]

I think Berens's response might be technically honest, but still disingenuous. I do buy that we're not supposed to view what Kaia said as absolute gospel truth. She has very limited experiences with him and is clearly trying to needle him, so she's intentionally going to make her criticism as extreme as possible. In any case, we've seen ample evidence over the years that Dean is not a brutal, conscienceless thug, let alone morally indistinguishable from Michael. So in that sense, I think Berens is being genuine in saying that Kaia isn't a creator mouthpiece in the scene.

On the other hand, I do think that Kaia's critique, if only in a more moderate form, is supposed to be taken seriously as a reflection on more negative aspects of Dean's character. There's no point to the scene if Kaia is supposed to be spouting nonsense at random. And, at this point in the show, I think that going back to the well of "Dean has darkness in him" is itself tired and rings false. I mean, yes, Dean has flaws, and may be more naturally comfortable with a certain level of physical violence than Sam or Jody, but we've had thirteen seasons to establish that he's essentially a good man, so I have no desire to see him angst over whether or not he's the lowest of the low for pulling a gun on an uncooperative Kaia when she was literally his only chance at saving his mother. It was wrong, but we've been here before. Let's move on. 

[Aeryn13]

I will say that normally the final scene where Dean says he just wanted to rush to the killing Michael part and jump over the dealing in the in-between and how he wasn`t strong enough would be foreshadowing to such a time when he DOES do that killing and DOES prove himself stronger than he thinks but when Sam gave a little look to the killing Michael notion, I cringed and immediately thought it is gonna be foreshadowing on how he does it. 

There absolutely should have been something said to Dean`s "I wasn`t strong enough". The crickets to it was just bad. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I will say that normally the final scene where Dean says he just wanted to rush to the killing Michael part and jump over the dealing in the in-between and how he wasn`t strong enough would be foreshadowing to such a time when he DOES do that killing and DOES prove himself stronger than he thinks but when Sam gave a little look to the killing Michael notion, I cringed and immediately thought it is gonna be foreshadowing on how he does it. 

There absolutely should have been something said to Dean`s "I wasn`t strong enough". The crickets to it was just bad. 

Really bad.

It's going to be S5 all over again, IMO. 

I think this scene was practically a mirror reflection of the last scene in On the Head of a Pin wherein Dean also said that he wasn't strong enough to get the job done. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Myrelle

[tennisgurl]

So, there was some good, and some bad here, and some that was just...what? 

The Good:

Lots of good interaction between Sam and Dean, with Dean saying how nothing was wrong over and over again, and Sam clearly being worried for him, and they had a lot of fun banter. The many jokes about Sams questionable facial hair (which I think looks pretty good!) were hilarious, and the last part in the car where Dean finally admitted what he went through. It was a really affecting scene and very well acted. 

Cas`s reaction when he saw Dean was super heartwarming, he looked like he was about to start crying with happiness when he saw Dean back to himself. And I thought his scenes trying to fix the cursed girl, and trying to help Jack, were well done. Its nice to see him being good at stuff, and being a sort of mentor again. However, why didnt we get a Dan and Cas reunion hug! They clearly needed one!

Nice to see Jody again. Its clear that the writers arent over their backdoor pilot not getting picked up (I am disappointed as well) but I dont mind seeing the characters showing up. Jody is cool, and I like how much she clearly cares about the Winchesters, and vice versa. She works well with them. 

I liked the hunter woman that Cas worked with, and while the actual story with the girl was pretty lame, I thought the actresses playing both the hunter and the girl were really good. 

The desperation of being possessed being like drowning was a great, visceral way to explain what happened to Dean, and it affected him.

The Bad: 

Why is Cas constantly stuck in the bunker lately? I get why they wanted to keep the focus on Sam and Dean right after Dean came back, but its getting a bit ridiculous. Is he on house arrest? Is it because he got embarrassingly beaten by demons in the first episode?

There are so many of these AU people, and I dont really care about any of them. Some of them seem nice enough, but having Sam as the leader of his own little AU hunter army just seems weird to me. I was right there with Dean on his confusion about all these random people at their place. 

Jack has his moments, I dont hate him or anything, but we are just spending so much freaking time with this kid! And its always angst angst angst! "I dont have powers! I still dont have powers! I wanna be taken seriously! Have I mentioned my lack of powers?" I know that the kid is, like, seven or something technically, but its just the same thing over and over again. And the stuff with the teen girl was just so on the nose, that I thought for awhile that all this was a hallucination or a dream, convincing him not to run away. 

Jack was the only one who realized that the creepy glowing necklace that matched the one on the witch, just MIGHT be causing some of these problems? Really? And Jack hugging Dean would be a lot more heartwarming if just last week Jack was coldly telling Cas that killing Dean to kill Michael was fine and dandy.

Maybe I am just a sap, and I know thats how Dean always is, but I wish we had spent more time on Dean and him coming back from possession, instead of jumping over to Jody. Maybe focus on just Dean and Sam and Deans clear trauma for an episode? And maybe have him actually interact with his mom, or his best friend? Make things actually about him? And, while I dont think him allowing Michael in was the smartest idea, he did do it to save lives, and suffered terribly for it, so maybe a...thank you could suffice? 

The What:

So, maybe I am forgetting something, but isnt AU Kaia just a normal person? She has some psychic stuff going on, but is mostly just an average human? How the hell can a normal teenage girl land a real hit on Michael, the guy who makes Satan himself nervous?! Her fighting wasn't all that impressive, and I felt most of her fight with Michael being like "why doesn't he just snap his fingers and smite her like he does with everyone else?" instead of being impressed. The whole thing was just weird and awkward. The actress was fine, but her being able to kick so much ass and show everyone what for was way too much to for, especially for an episode that should be all about Dean coming back. And her being all sassy and "bad ass" and wearing all black just screamed "LOOK AT THE COOL CHARACTER!", in a way that felt rather unauthentic. And, maybe I remember wrong, but didnt Claire only know Kaia for about a day? I get that she probably made an impression, especially after her tragic death, but they talked like they were this big romance. Am I remembering? 

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

When the episode was going on, Berens had other tweets, one basically about how Kaia is the awesomest ever.

Okay, I shouldn't have, but I couldn't resist going to take a look at this.

 

Good lord. Yes, that's a classic Mary Sue right there. Even if I wanted my show to morph into the saga of a teenage girl with magical powers (which I don't; they are a dime a dozen and I'm not interested -- not to mention that this show is the story of the Winchesters, and I don't appreciate it being hijacked) -- but even if I wanted to watch the story of Kaia, I wouldn't want it written like that.

Can you in your wildest dreams imagine Eric Kripke, back when the show first began, sending out a tweet like that about one of his characters?

Quote

Living in crappy motel rooms for months, subsisting off convenience store snacks, hung from his wrists in a cave by the Wendigo, Dean is still a deadly, heartstopping beauty.

( Ha! Not that such a statement wouldn't have been absolutely true! But I mean, come on -- so ridiculous!)

Edited October 27, 2018 by Bergamot

[Aeryn13]

And how can it be months if Michael came to this Earth like three weeks prior. If she lived in the woods before that, that`s her fucking deal. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

And how can it be months if Michael came to this Earth like three weeks prior. If she lived in the woods before that, that`s her fucking deal. 

I think he meant that Kaia was living there for months. Then Michael showed up and hunted her with his minions...w I don't think Michael was hunting for her for months. He wouldn't need to hunt for her because we know he can just teleport anywhere he wants at any time and can apparently read minds.

[BabySpinach]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, I shouldn't have, but I couldn't resist going to take a look at this.

 

Good lord. Yes, that's a classic Mary Sue right there. Even if I wanted my show to morph into the saga of a teenage girl with magical powers (which I don't; they are a dime a dozen and I'm not interested -- not to mention that this show is the story of the Winchesters, and I don't appreciate it being hijacked) -- but even if I wanted to watch the story of Kaia, I wouldn't want it written like that.

Can you in your wildest dreams imagine Eric Kripke, back when the show first began, sending out a tweet like that about one of his characters?

( Ha! Not that such a statement wouldn't have been absolutely true! But I mean, come on -- so ridiculous!)

 

I saw that tweet, too. Gives me Robbie Thompson vibes, back when he was gushing all over his own little pet, Charlie. No professional writer should ever view their characters this way, salivating over their awesomeness as if they were real people. That's the purview of fans, and it smacks of unrestrained ego and self-satisfaction when the writer does it. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by BabySpinach

[tennisgurl]

13 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Good lord. Yes, that's a classic Mary Sue right there.

Because Chuck help us if our new magical teenage ninja badass wasn't super beautiful with perfect hair and a flawless complexion despite living on her own in the woods with a bunch of decapitated heads, presumably without access to showers or hair products! Why doesn't he just start tweeting his own self insert fanfic where he ends up going on the run with AU Kaia and they beat up every villain the show has ever had while the rest of the cast gushes over how awesome and beautiful they are?

[Bergamot]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And how can it be months if Michael came to this Earth like three weeks prior. If she lived in the woods before that, that`s her fucking deal. 

I guess it was the only place she could find to stay where she was allowed to decorate with the heads of her enemies stuck on poles! :-)

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, I shouldn't have, but I couldn't resist going to take a look at this.

 

Good lord. Yes, that's a classic Mary Sue right there. Even if I wanted my show to morph into the saga of a teenage girl with magical powers (which I don't; they are a dime a dozen and I'm not interested -- not to mention that this show is the story of the Winchesters, and I don't appreciate it being hijacked) -- but even if I wanted to watch the story of Kaia, I wouldn't want it written like that.

Can you in your wildest dreams imagine Eric Kripke, back when the show first began, sending out a tweet like that about one of his characters?

( Ha! Not that such a statement wouldn't have been absolutely true! But I mean, come on -- so ridiculous!)

Oh, gag me. And this is apparently our new "semi-villain", too... *we need an eye rolling emoticon*...

He sounds as bad as Thompson was with Charlie Sue-worse even.

5 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I saw that tweet, too. Gives me Robbie Thompson vibes, back when he was gushing all over his own little pet, Charlie. No professional writer should ever view their characters this way, salivating over their awesomeness as if they were real people. That's the purview of fans, and it smacks of unrestrained ego and self-satisfaction when the writer does it. 

Jinx! Baby Spinach! ;-)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Because Chuck help us if our new magical teenage ninja badass wasn't super beautiful with perfect hair and a flawless complexion despite living on her own in the woods with a bunch of decapitated heads, presumably without access to showers or hair products! Why doesn't he just start tweeting his own self insert fanfic where he ends up going on the run with AU Kaia and they beat up every villain the show has ever had while the rest of the cast gushes over how awesome and beautiful they are?

It's funny how Berens is supposed to be about strong female characters as a feminist writer, yet he still ends up talking about their looks....LOL. I mean that is a little sexist...isn't it?

 

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I guess it was the only place she could find to stay where she was allowed to decorate with the heads of her enemies stuck on poles! :-)

But she needs so much protection from big old mean Dean. 

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 The What:

So, maybe I am forgetting something, but isnt AU Kaia just a normal person? She has some psychic stuff going on, but is mostly just an average human? How the hell can a normal teenage girl land a real hit on Michael, the guy who makes Satan himself nervous?! Her fighting wasn't all that impressive, and I felt most of her fight with Michael being like "why doesn't he just snap his fingers and smite her like he does with everyone else?" instead of being impressed. The whole thing was just weird and awkward. The actress was fine, but her being able to kick so much ass and show everyone what for was way too much to for, especially for an episode that should be all about Dean coming back. And her being all sassy and "bad ass" and wearing all black just screamed "LOOK AT THE COOL CHARACTER!", in a way that felt rather unauthentic. And, maybe I remember wrong, but didnt Claire only know Kaia for about a day? I get that she probably made an impression, especially after her tragic death, but they talked like they were this big romance. Am I remembering? 

I don’t think EvilKaia is a normal person.  Demonstrated so far:

1) Dreamwalker

2) Ability to open a rift

3) Had a sweet double in our universe to whom she was psychically connected (‘I saw everything she saw’).  And if Sweet Kaia is anything to go buy, they shared pain as well. 

4) Able to not only read Dean’s mind but trigger a memory release in him.  

5) Is made of a different ‘energy’ per Michael.  

6) Weilds a weapon that can hurt an Archangel.

 

I think 3 & 4 are definitely signs of a supernatural entity.  

Maybe some wizard split Kaia in two and sent one to the Bad Place (OR some wizard in the Bad Place did it). But normal humans don’t have a psychically connect counterpart.  

I agree that Befen’s thinks mighty high of her but weather she’s some sort of AU magic weilder or some product of some form of magic, I think she’s a few steps over the mind of ‘normal’.    

Edited October 27, 2018 by SueB

[ohjoy]

This is your friendly reminder to keep the discussion on topic for this particular episode. Off-topic discussions (BvJ, past seasons, show history or bitterness, etc.) all have separate discussion topics, and should be taken to the appropriate topic.

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

I don’t think EvilKaia is a normal person.  Demonstrated so far:

1) Dreamwalker

2) Ability to open a rift

3) Had a sweet double in our universe to whom she was psychically connected (‘I saw everything she saw’).  And if Sweet Kaia is anything to go buy, they shared pain as well. 

4) Able to not only read Dean’s mind but trigger a memory release in him.  

5) Is made of a different ‘energy’ per Michael.  

6) Weilds a weapon that can hurt an Archangel.

 

I think 3 & 4 are definitely signs of a supernatural entity.  

Maybe some wizard split Kaia in two and sent one to the Bad Place (OR some wizard in the Bad Place did it). But normal humans don’t have a psychically connect counterpart.  

I agree that Befen’s thinks mighty high of her but weather she’s some sort of AU magic weilder or some product of some form of magic, I think she’s a few steps over the mind of ‘normal’.    

6) Maybe she gets her power from the weapon.  Dean subdued her pretty easily when she wasn't wielding it.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I have so many questions about the plot in this episode that I'm not sure if it's intentional or just bad writing. That's the problem when there's a lot of missing information in the story and we have to watch it unfold in real time. 

1. How did the fight between Michael and Kaia end? Why would he leave and send monsters to finish the job?

2. Why did he use hand-to-hand combat? Is his grace low because of all the monsters he's creating?

3. When did that fight take place in the three-week timeline? It was after the events of 14.01, since Michael said to Kaia that he was creating a "monster army," but was it before/in-between/after him setting a trap with the enhanced werewolves?

4. If the wound is what made him leave his vessel, why did he do it after it had already scarred over? Dean can't teleport, so Michael was at the same location as Sam, Mary and Bobby before he decided to split for whatever reason. This gives me a slight hope that Michael intentionally left Dean and has a bigger plan.

5. Why didn't the monsters acknowledge or recognize Dean?

And then more general ones about why Michael left Dean, what he's currently up to, blah blah blah.

These questions are literally the only reason I'm still even slightly interested. We're supposed to get more answers in the upcoming episodes, but in concurrence with the general shittiness of the writing and the ridiculous focus on uninteresting side Sues, I'm not that optimistic. This list is also here for me to come back to, just to see if they were ever answered.

Item by item response:

1. She ran off and he didn’t chase her.   He’s given up on her as an ally but wants her spear.

2. He didn’t want to kill her.  He wanted her to be part of his team.  Either her ‘different energy’ prevented him from just  proofing her away or he still wants her alive.   I think he was surprised the spear hurt him but I think it was superficial. 

3. I’d say just before 14.2.  

4. I don’t think he left because of the wound.   Not only had it healed over and theleported, but he’d had a change of clothes.   And why set a trap to abandon Dean?  The wound may factor into the calculus of his plans but it wasn’t debilitating from what we were shown.

5. Maybe he didn’t personally turn all the monsters.  Just a few and taught the pack leader how to make more.  He simply could have left a vial of grace behind w/ the recipe.

[Casseiopeia]

I read this theory elsewhere...

I wonder if Dean's vessel is now too damaged or "scarred" to house Michael.  Maybe Kaia's magical weapon made Dean uninhabitable.

[Myrelle]

16 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I read this theory elsewhere...

I wonder if Dean's vessel is now too damaged or "scarred" to house Michael.  Maybe Kaia's magical weapon made Dean uninhabitable.

Yeah, I think that some form of this is the keep JA/Dean completely away from the myth-arc storyline again and some more trope that the writers on this show have liked to employ more often than not over the course of this entire series; so yes, it's more than quite possible that it will happen again.

IMO, of course.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I read this theory elsewhere...

I wonder if Dean's vessel is now too damaged or "scarred" to house Michael.  Maybe Kaia's magical weapon made Dean uninhabitable.

Of course it did. Just like having the Mark tainted him from being able to bear it again.

I'm still trying to figure out how a tiny human girl kicked the ass of two large, lifelong trained men, a police officer and a fucking archangel (because before she stabbed him, she knocked him to the ground). It makes absolutely no sense that he just laid there and let her stab him when he literally killed that vamp just by thinking about it. He flung that religious guy in the premiere around like a rag doll with a wave of his hand. So damn ridiculous.

Edited October 28, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Okay, I shouldn't have, but I couldn't resist going to take a look at this.

 

Good lord. Yes, that's a classic Mary Sue right there. Even if I wanted my show to morph into the saga of a teenage girl with magical powers (which I don't; they are a dime a dozen and I'm not interested -- not to mention that this show is the story of the Winchesters, and I don't appreciate it being hijacked) -- but even if I wanted to watch the story of Kaia, I wouldn't want it written like that.

Can you in your wildest dreams imagine Eric Kripke, back when the show first began, sending out a tweet like that about one of his characters?

( Ha! Not that such a statement wouldn't have been absolutely true! But I mean, come on -- so ridiculous!)

 

Oh dear god, I didn't see this before. I honestly thought it was a parody account or something. WTAF? He is an embarrassment.

And you know what, he's got a fuckton of nerve hashtagging his failed show and his ridiculous MarySue in the show that actually employs him. It's too bad he doesn't have, or at least doesn't show (in any way) a fraction of that respect or enthusiasm for the actual stars of his show. Gah, now I actively dislike him.

Edited October 28, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh dear god, I didn't see this before. I honestly thought it was a parody account or something. WTAF? He is an embarrassment.

And to think he is supposed to be our best writer.   I wish that dam spinoff had been picked up.  At least we could have unloaded WS, Berens and probably Dabb in one fell swoop.

[BabySpinach]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Item by item response:

1. She ran off and he didn’t chase her.   He’s given up on her as an ally but wants her spear.

2. He didn’t want to kill her.  He wanted her to be part of his team.  Either her ‘different energy’ prevented him from just  proofing her away or he still wants her alive.   I think he was surprised the spear hurt him but I think it was superficial. 

3. I’d say just before 14.2.  

4. I don’t think he left because of the wound.   Not only had it healed over and theleported, but he’d had a change of clothes.   And why set a trap to abandon Dean?  The wound may factor into the calculus of his plans but it wasn’t debilitating from what we were shown.

5. Maybe he didn’t personally turn all the monsters.  Just a few and taught the pack leader how to make more.  He simply could have left a vial of grace behind w/ the recipe.

1. If he wanted her spear that badly, he would/should have chased her. He has wings. He can literally teleport to wherever she tries to run, especially if his wound wasn't serious.

2. He clearly prioritized the weapon over getting Kaia as an ally, saying that he had no problem with killing her if he needed to. So why didn't he?

Even if Michael chose not to use his powers, Kaia still shouldn't have gotten the better of him. It was cringey and pandering and demolished Michael's hard-earned credibility as a true threat. It also makes no sense for Michael to just abandon her after getting poked and sending monsters to finish the job instead. 

As for the rest, you're under the assumption that it wasn't Kaia's spear that threw Michael out of Dean, and that their fight took place before 14.02. Honestly, that's how I want it to be as well. It would fit better with the timeline and wouldn't be quite as lame as a prod with a sharp stick that somehow casts out the strongest archangel from his perfect vessel. If the fight DID take place before 14.02, then the wound was clearly not debilitating, given Michael's 100% smugness, self-assurance, and power throughout the episode itself. This also means that Michael left Dean on purpose, for his own reasons, after springing a "trap," which makes it all a lot more interesting.

Michael's weird trap is what gives me the slight hope that he did leave on purpose. Otherwise, it's just nonsensical to even target Sam, Mary, and Bobby in the first place, with nothing but a handful of werewolves, no less. Plus, Michael actually teleported to them before he left Dean. Did he suddenly get hit by a delayed reaction from the wound and immediately have to flee his vessel, just before he confronted the hunters? And if it instead took place in the direct aftermath of his fight with Kaia, and he was wounded and being forced out of his vessel, why would he still proceed with the trap and show up there? Seems more likely that he deliberately dropped Dean off with his family to serve some unclear end.

But we're being logical here, and that isn't necessarily the writers' strong suit. I do feel that they're somehow going to make Kaia and her spear responsible for Michael getting out of Dean, no matter the facts or plot holes. My head hurts from trying to make sense of it all.

[mertensia]

It's possible Michael doesn't want Kaia dead because he wants her to open dimensions for him. 

I thought the episode was quite good, and I liked seeing some realism in Dean's actions and reactions. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Even if Michael chose not to use his powers, Kaia still shouldn't have gotten the better of him. It was cringey and pandering and demolished Michael's hard-earned credibility as a true threat. It also makes no sense for Michael to just abandon her after getting poked and sending monsters to finish the job instead. 

Since when can any human not easily best any angel/demon/monster?  They've become weak and puny in the last few years and it's not just the angels so we can't blame the fall.

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

As for the rest, you're under the assumption that it wasn't Kaia's spear that threw Michael out of Dean, and that their fight took place before 14.02. Honestly, that's how I want it to be as well. It would fit better with the timeline and wouldn't be quite as lame as a prod with a sharp stick that somehow casts out the strongest archangel from his perfect vessel. If the fight DID take place before 14.02, then the wound was clearly not debilitating, given Michael's 100% smugness, self-assurance, and power throughout the episode itself. This also means that Michael left Dean on purpose, for his own reasons, after springing a "trap," which makes it all a lot more interesting.

Michael's weird trap is what gives me the slight hope that he did leave on purpose. Otherwise, it's just nonsensical to even target Sam, Mary, and Bobby in the first place, with nothing but a handful of werewolves, no less. Plus, Michael actually teleported to them before he left Dean. Did he suddenly get hit by a delayed reaction from the wound and immediately have to flee his vessel, just before he confronted the hunters? And if it instead took place in the direct aftermath of his fight with Kaia, and he was wounded and being forced out of his vessel, why would he still proceed with the trap and show up there? Seems more likely that he deliberately dropped Dean off with his family to serve some unclear end.

But we're being logical here, and that isn't necessarily the writers' strong suit. I do feel that they're somehow going to make Kaia and her spear responsible for Michael getting out of Dean, no matter the facts or plot holes. My head hurts from trying to make sense of it all.

You have reasoned it out very logically here, BabySpinach! My impression after the end of episode 2 was that Dean himself was somehow "the trap" that Michael was talking about and that he was so pleased and smug about. I was interested to see where that went. But then this episode gave me the impression that the writers had somehow dumped that whole idea in favor of making Michael's disappearance all about Kaia and her spear. The only thing is, as you explained in your comment, that this doesn't even make sense given what we saw in episode 2. As you said, I still have a slight bit of hope for a Dean storyline that is about Dean, but not much.

[BabySpinach]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Since when can any human not easily best any angel/demon/monster?  They've become weak and puny in the last few years and it's not just the angels so we can't blame the fall.

I disagree. In the previous episode, Michael smote someone without even touching or looking at them. That would have been noteworthy even back in seasons 4 or 5. Yet in this episode they had a teenage human trip and stab him. It's very jarring when these two instances are back-to-back like that.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, mertensia said:

It's possible Michael doesn't want Kaia dead because he wants her to open dimensions for him. 

I thought the episode was quite good, and I liked seeing some realism in Dean's actions and reactions. 

I think you're right about not wanting Kaia dead.  Although Michael emphasized her giving him the spear, the werewolves said "we only came for her".  Which leaves it ambiguous if Michael wanted her dead.  And we know Michael couldn't open a rift himself because he needed first AUKevin and then Lucifer to open one from Apocalypse world.  If Kaia is so strong that she can open with a few words, that's hella-strong and a handy thing for Michael.  

Third viewing squee moments:
- Dean the hunter/tracker ... I like that they remember Dean is the one with the superior tracking skills.  The way he tracked down Kaia was Purgatory-reminiscent.
- Michael's fighting style.  Especially when he squared his shoulders at one point.  Like he's still got wings attached.  That was really well done.
- Dean hassling Sam about the beard and Sam giving him a look when Jody said she likes it.  Although I bet Sam shaves it anyway.
 

I've been thinking about Kaia's spear.  The long 'barbeque fork' is attached to the bone of an animal.  I'm getting "Basilik's fang" vibe here (see Harry Potter).  I don't know what creature it came out of but I bet the 'fork' is some part of a creature.