S14.E03: The Scar

[catrox14]

On the positive side...Jensen looks so badass here as Michael!Dean

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

On the positive side...Jensen looks so badass here as Michael!Dean

You can see the difference in fighting styles.  Michael is more rigid while Dean is more scrappy.

What might have been if Jensen actually got to play this character. 

Why didn't Michael just snap his fingers.

Edited October 26, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why didn't Michael just snap his fingers.

I think he was having fun myself.

[BabySpinach]

So the billions-years-old general of Heaven, most powerful archangel of the four, in his perfect vessel, got tripped up and stabbed by a teenage human with a spear. FUUUUCK. YOUUUUUUUUUU. AU!Kaia being about as big and scary as a kitten just added insult to injury. Michael!Dean's power level had been so well established in the previous episodes, but then it all came crashing down in this one thanks to shallow "feminist" pandering that rears its head every time an attractive teen shows up. WHY THE FUCK did Michael engage in hand-to-hand with her, anyway?! He could have smited her on the spot with a thought, or turned her to dust, or frozen her in place. When you compromise story logic to make a character look good, it just makes them obnoxious. Also, the pure visual of a small human girl beating up grown men and women a head taller than her is cringey and laughable.

And how the hell did that fight actually conclude? Kaia stabs him in the bicep, and then what? He gives up and flees? And sends redshirt goons to finish the job? WHAT? WHY? He should have way more firepower on his own than a thousand of those juiced-up monsters. 

Step away, Jack. You have no right to even be in the same room as Dean, much less hug him in relief. Funny how he indirectly refers to Dean as his dad, yet had no trouble contemplating the latter's death last week. News flash, you psycho, most people aren't so glib about their fathers potentially having to die. His sickness at the end was a predictable, lazy, manipulative story choice ripped straight from the Woobie Handbook. Oh yay, now we get to watch everyone coddle and fret over him even more while he suffers nobly like the perfect little muffin he is. I'm even less invested in this than in Sam's season 8 Trialberculosis, which is saying something. God, Jack is SO BORING. 

Dean really is besieged from all sides, isn't he? He makes an offhand blunt comment about Jack being small, is glared at and calls himself a dick, while Jack literally says that DEAN DOESN'T MATTER and gets no narrative recriminations whatsoever. AU!Kaia gets to smugly psychoanalyze him and call him weak, with no counter-argument to be found. Add on a side order of Shut Up Sam, with his badgering of Dean to act how HE wants him to act, yet again!  At least Jody gave Dean some positive support, for what it's worth. 

Ugh, and of course Dean calls himself stupid and reckless and says, "You were right," for the thousandth time, then blames himself for everything. He also got to say that he wasn't strong enough to beat Michael, just to hammer home how pathetic he's supposed to be. I hate it. I haaaaate this trope, especially when no one ever contradicts these assertions. And as I predicted, there was no mention of how Dean saved the world by saying yes. Shocker. 

Yay, super special Kaia singlehandedly saved the three dumb adults. Baaarrrffffff.

This episode pretty much had all of my most despised tropes rolled into one. Fuck you, show. Go away, Berens. You clearly don't understand or care for Dean beyond being a dumb, reckless grunt who then has to apologize and self-flagellate for it. Is it because he's not as "sweet" and "sensitive" as Sam, Cas, or Jack? Is he too straightforward and no-nonsense, which you interpret as being an alpha-male jerk? Is he not enough of a sad-faced angsty woobie to deserve to be written in a consistently sympathetic light? Nah, he deserves to get knocked down and shit-talk himself for the hundredth time, instead.

At this point, I'm up for Dean reuniting with Michael and having the archangel and his perfect vessel decide to burn the world together, if that's what it takes for me to never see Guilty Self-Loathing Dean ever again.

[ILoveReading]

I called the Kaia twist right from comic con.  Including her defeating Michael off screen.

Now the Michael story is all about how much Michael wants Kaia. 

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was like a really bad after school special, complete with teenagers teaching dumb old adults life lessons.

MTE.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean really is besieged from all sides, isn't he? He makes an offhand blunt comment about Jack being small, is glared at and calls himself a dick, while Jack literally says that DEAN DOESN'T MATTER and gets no narrative recriminations whatsoever. AU!Kaia gets to smugly psychoanalyze him and call him weak, with no counter-argument to be found. Add on a side order of Shut Up Sam, with his badgering of Dean to act how HE wants him to act, yet again!  At least Jody gave Dean some positive support, for what it's worth. 

Ugh, and of course Dean calls himself stupid and reckless and says, "You were right," for the thousandth time, then blames himself for everything. He also got to say that he wasn't strong enough to beat Michael, just to hammer home how pathetic he's supposed to be. I hate it. I haaaaate this trope, especially when no one ever contradicts these assertions. And as I predicted, there was no mention of how Dean saved the world by saying yes. Shocker. 

Yay, super special Kaia singlehandedly saved the three dumb adults. Baaarrrffffff.

This episode pretty much had all of my most despised tropes rolled into one. Fuck you, show. Go away, Berens. You clearly don't understand or care for Dean beyond being a dumb, reckless grunt who then has to apologize and self-flagellate for it. Is it because he's not as "sweet" and "sensitive" as Sam, Cas, or Jack? Is he too straightforward and no-nonsense, which you interpret as being an alpha-male jerk? Is he not enough of a sad-faced angsty woobie to deserve to be written in a consistently sympathetic light? Nah, he deserves to get knocked down and shit-talk himself for the hundredth time, instead

Yup.

Everything I feared-and then some.

[companionenvy]

A lot of the episode was OK to moderately engaging, but the whole thing reinforces to me that this show should really be done. 

Dean's behavior in this episode was almost a point by point retread of his behavior when he got back from hell: After an experience in which he has been forced into doing terrible things, he claims falsely not to remember anything, angsts about whether or not he's just a terrible killer - and now a weak and broken one -- and then blames himself for breaking the world.

The problem is twofold: even if it worked, it is repetitive, and the situation here is a lot less psychologically compelling or convincing than the situation in S4 in any case:

- Unlike Dean in hell, Michael!Dean really was a different being simply controlling Dean's body. What Michael did says nothing about who Dean is.

-While Dean certainly does have a violent side, Kaia's "you and Michael are the same" simply rings false, and at this point in Dean's life, he shouldn't still be so worried about whether or not he is nothing but a killer (and to the extent that he hasn't gotten over that anxiety, it isn't actually all that interesting for me as a viewer to watch, because it so clearly isn't true and I don't need version whatever.0 of " Dean hates himself"). Was Dean threatening Kaia prime the best thing he's ever done? No, but under the highly charged circumstances and given the stakes, it wasn't evidence of depravity. Certainly, Dean's willingness to suggest the possibility of using less-than-gentle interrogation methods on Kaia redux should not be enough to give Sam and Jody the vapors. This is not torturing souls willingly for ten years. This is maybe, possibly going too far when you're in the middle of a war. That may be wrong, but in the context of Dean's life, it really shouldn't rate as a source of existential angst.

-Michael hasn't been established as enough of a threat for me to take seriously the idea that Dean has any reason to feel guilty about unleashing him on the world, especially given that in the process he killed Lucifer. At worst, you've replaced one evil archangel with another evil archangel who is perhaps ever so slightly more powerful. Theoretically, Michael could wind up being a world-ending problem, but unlike in S4, where Dean believes, with some reason, that he's set off the events that will lead to the Biblical Apocalypse, it is all too opaque to serve up a lot of dramatic tension in a show where the boys face a potentially world-ending enemy almost every season. Michael has killed people, but we're not seeing Amara or Leviathan or even Godstiel levels of destruction at this point. And, of course, as Sam says, Dean really did do what he had to do; in the moment, saying "yes" to Michael in order to defeat the more imminent threat of Lucifer was, IMO, genuinely the better call. 

I like Jack (his "Sleeping Beauty" line was ridiculously adorable), but can we please stop making Cas useless? It was bad enough when Cas always had to be the goat to prop Sam and Dean, but doing it to prop Jack adds insult to injury. Aside from saving himself from the Empty Keeper last year and a couple of references to off-screen victories, I really can't remember the last time Cas has saved anyone, come up with a clever plan that succeeded, or generally done anything all that important.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, Ninamags said:

I was screaming at the tv to tell Jack to take off the stupid necklace from the girl. 

Me, too.  It's like everybody in that room had no functioning brain cells.

 

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

One second the Bunker is teeming with people the next it's an empty cavern.  At least last week Sam sent them off on a vampire hunt.  And no one seemed at all interested in Dean being back, they barely even acknowledged he was in the room.

Don't get me started on the stupid overpopulation of the bunker. But, to be fair to them not caring about Dean, they barely know him.  I would have found it more unrealistic had they been superstoked about him being back.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Why didn't Michael just snap his fingers.

Because creatures can only be as powerful as show needs them to be in a given scene.  Obviously Michael should have just snapped his fingers, but then where would they have gone with the rest of the show.  Obviously Michael should just go to the bunker and snap his fingers and take out all the hunters, including Sam, Dean, Cas,, but we know that won't happen either.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Don't get me started on the stupid overpopulation of the bunker. But, to be fair to them not caring about Dean, they barely know him.  I would have found it more unrealistic had they been superstoked about him being back.

I haven't watched yet but even if they don't know him they're still living in his home so it's not too much to ask for them to acknowledge him. I too hate the idea of all of those people living in the bunker. Didn't they say at some point last season that the AU hunters had gotten settled into town? I believe it was said during the scene when Bobby and Mary were taking a walk.

[ILoveReading]

One thing I had to laugh at was despite how much Sam and Cas baby and mollycoddle Jack, its still Dean's approval he wants the most.  He only got really upset when Dean said he couldnt' go on the hunt.  

So much for that breathing room.

[gonzosgirrl]

Why was the witch's body in a morgue? The AU chick said she 'barely had time to bury the body' (bury? really, stupid AU hunter?) and yet there she is, all pretty and pristine in a cooler. The fuck?

Edited October 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why was the witch's body in a morgue? The AU chick said she 'barely had time to bury the body' (bury? really, stupid AU hunter?) and yet there she is, all pretty and pristine in a cooler. The fuck?

That's a good point.  Along with taking the necklace off, I wonder if burning the body immediately might have helped.  Jack said (not that I think Jack knows anything generally) that the spell had to work harder because there was a bullet in her.  So, if he had bee cremated would the spell have worked harder, or just given up?

And hunters almost always burn the bodies unless they have reason not to.  OK, maybe for whatever reason they didn't do that in the AU.  I can actually understand that as they had bigger problems than run-of-the mill monsters over there.  But, we've been told it's been three weeks and that they call Sam chief.  Surely, he must be doing something for people to decide he's the boss.  Instruction perhaps?  Or, at least Mary could have told them to burn the bodies. Someone?  Anyone?

Now, that we've brought up the subject of dead bodies, why did Not!Kaya mount the vamp heads on stakes?  That's like some weird sacrifice/ritual thing that doesn't make sense if you're just killing hitmen who are after you.

[Bobcatkitten]

Asshole Dean was definitely on full display this episode. But I'm trying to take it as a reaction to him being frustrated about the situation and it's a stage he will get through. We already saw by the end of the episode that he was moving on and talking about it. I do wish, as others said, that Sam had said simply "you saved us." That would have been nice but I'm sure it will come. Can't wrap everything up in one episode. 

 

I love Jody. Always have and enjoyed having her around. Her reactions to the guys are the best and she told Dean he had nothing to apologize for. And while I wasn't a big WS fan I liked having Kaia back. It used a loose end from last season in a way that tied in well. And as long as I don't have to see Claire I'm good with it. She definitely had some choice words for Dean/Michael but I have to remember she doesn't really know the real Dean - just the crazy out-of-character Dean that took her alter ego hostage. I loved when she admitted she was aiming for Claire. Overall I enjoyed her feistiness and the fight scenes. 

 

Obviously the biggest WTF is that Michael vacated at all. It makes no sense whatsoever and took me out of the episode.

 

Sam and Dean. Man I want more Michael!Dean but I love these two. Bantering over the beard and chief and a good BM scene salves a lot of wounds. 

 

Enough with the other hunters. Get them out. Move on. And I really didn't care about the sick girl and that whole storyline. I know I should but I don't. I'm intrigued if Jack is sick.

[Pondlass1]

The Michael fight was cool and badass but way too short.  I wanted more of that.  But why didn't Michael's green eyes turn blue and send her flying and grab the spear?  The way she was tied so loosely in that chair was laughable.

  I think the dumbest audience member figured it was that great hulking necklace around her neck (and once again more dreadful overacting from the young actress in bed.  Where are they finding these actors?  Is the Vancouver acting pool so limited?).  And now woobie Jack is sick and tossing yucky bloody Kleenex about for someone to find.  Who empties the trash bins, I wonder?  I'm guessing the woobie factor is about to go off the charts.

Dean's story is just a repeat of past seasons. (What else is new?) The writers just can't seem to get out of their rut when writing for Dean. What a waste of a talent actor.  Also - and I'm not a fan of the character - but Angel Cas is now dead weight and can't do a damn thang anymore. It's ridiculous.  Also ridiculous ... Sam's neatly trimmed grief beard.   

Dean's muscled arm was the highlight of the episode and something we rarely see.  And I want Kim's haircut.

That's about it for me.  The thrill is going, going....almost gone.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why was the witch's body in a morgue? The AU chick said she 'barely had time to bury the body' (bury? really, stupid AU hunter?) and yet there she is, all pretty and pristine in a cooler. The fuck?

More importantly, why didn't they salt and burn her body?  I mean that is Hunter 101.  Cas knows this.  I'm so fucking tired of this show making Cas look stupid.  He can't heal the girl because Jack has to be set up to save the day.   The devaluation of other characters to prop Jack and the Wayward Sisters is really obnoxious. 

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

But I'm trying to take it as a reaction to him being frustrated about the situation and it's a stage he will get through.

I think that's definitely it.  He was just possessed by an archangel for weeks. He may not remember much of it, but it is still affecting him.  I'm not sure why Sam, who went through the same thing, does not seem to be getting this.

 

40 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I loved when she admitted she was aiming for Claire.

I would have liked an explanation for that.  "Why'd you kill her."  "That was an accident.  I was going for the blonde."  "Oh, OK, then, that explained everything and makes it alright."

 

41 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Overall I enjoyed her feistiness and the fight scenes. 

Yeah, I definitely really liked her. I liked her better than regular Kaya, I think, and much better than Patience, and even better than Alex.

 

42 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Obviously the biggest WTF is that Michael vacated at all. It makes no sense whatsoever and took me out of the episode.

I thought it had something to do with the injury?  Kind of like the demon in I Believe the Children and the mom was able to shove the demon out because the labor weakened it.

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought it had something to do with the injury?  Kind of like the demon in I Believe the Children and the mom was able to shove the demon out because the labor weakened it.

I don't think the spear/scar was related to him leaving. After all he went on and we had the tuxedo/werewolf stuff. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I don't think the spear/scar was related to him leaving. After all he went on and we had the tuxedo/werewolf stuff. 

Was that after?  Maybe he changed and met Kaya in the woods?  What was Dean wearing when he first came on?  I am the worst at paying attention to wardrobe. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I don't think the spear/scar was related to him leaving. After all he went on and we had the tuxedo/werewolf stuff. 

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

 

I would have liked an explanation for that.  "Why'd you kill her."  "That was an accident.  I was going for the blonde."  "Oh, OK, then, that explain

That was when I thought Dean was proven right to think that torturing evil Kaia was the way to go because she straight up said she was trying to kill Claire.

 

 Like why didn't Jody elbow Dean out of the way and punch evil Kaia in the face and then tell Dean, yeah have at it.

Instead they have Jody and Sam stand there looking aghast that Dean suggested hurting an evil entity to get info an the thing that could help kill Michael. The only reason I can see is to force the idea that Dean is nothing more than a bully
They couldn't bother to have Cas or Sam  say maybe Dean is dealing with the same issues we just spent time on with wooby  Nick. I'm just sayin

Its like one minute the writers talk down to us like we don't remember easy things and then don't mention a thing that would show us that Dean would be shown as much compassion  as was shown Nick.

Edited October 26, 2018 by catrox14
posting mobile sucks

[Bergamot]

8 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

So the billions-years-old general of Heaven, most powerful archangel of the four, in his perfect vessel, got tripped up and stabbed by a teenage human with a spear. FUUUUCK. YOUUUUUUUUUU. AU!Kaia being about as big and scary as a kitten just added insult to injury. Michael!Dean's power level had been so well established in the previous episodes, but then it all came crashing down in this one thanks to shallow "feminist" pandering that rears its head every time an attractive teen shows up. WHY THE FUCK did Michael engage in hand-to-hand with her, anyway?! He could have smited her on the spot with a thought, or turned her to dust, or frozen her in place. When you compromise story logic to make a character look good, it just makes them obnoxious.

Thank you, BabySpinach, for your entire post, and for magnificently expressing my feelings! :-) Berens is pushing so hard to make the character of Kaia TOTALLY AWESOME in every single scene that it is kind of creeping me out. It's like I can hear him just behind me, watching over my shoulder and panting heavily with eagerness to point out her AWESOMENESS. Calm down, dude. Everything she does, like jumping over a fence or killing the monsters, is framed like a crucial and dramatic full-page panel in a comic book. Considering that this is not her show (they didn't want Wayward Sisters, Berens), obnoxious is a good way to describe it.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm so fucking tired of this show making Cas look stupid.  He can't heal the girl because Jack has to be set up to save the day.   The devaluation of other characters to prop Jack and the Wayward Sisters is really obnoxious. 

Yes, obnoxious is absolutely the word for it! I feel sorry for Castiel fans, especially those that don't like Jack, as I think his character has been treated badly. You know, there was a moment there, when he was unable to heal the girl, and he stopped and looked chagrined for a second, that rather than saying "This might take a while, go on without me" I imagined he was going to say, "I'm afraid I neglected the fact that I am not permitted to be a part of the main plot of the episode, so go on without me." I mean, he might as well have said that.

[catrox14]

Funny thing also that the show seems to be forgetting or has forgotten is that if Jack had just killed Lucifer in the AU,   Michael wouldn't have been in a position to make a deal with Lucifer at all.  The worst that would happen is that Michael would still be in his world and trying to find a way out.  I would have been fine with continuing to wonder if Michael would have found a way out. 

I wonder though, why isn't Michael trying to find the Christian Keyes vessel.  What happened to him?  They could have at least mentioned him in the past 3 episodes. Like everyone is so concerned about these side characters that they don't bother to say whether he is alive or not? But sure focus on some teenager with a pendant dying of old age (really show?). I'm not even gonna start on the symbolism of that shit

[catrox14]

I legit LOL'd at Evil!Kaia's whole spinning the staff and posing at the end of that fight. LOL

 I mean yes Michael!Dean popped back to a fighting stance because it's a fighting stance and he was prepping for the next move. But Evil!Kaia's was such an obvious...OH LOOK AT ME being a badass.  It's doesn't look right in this show.  It would be fine in a superhero show like Arrow or Supergirl....but no...not here. 

[Bobcatkitten]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legit LOL'd at Evil!Kaia's whole spinning the staff and posing at the end of that fight. LOL

 I mean yes Michael!Dean popped back to a fighting stance because it's a fighting stance and he was prepping for the next move. But Evil!Kaia's was such an obvious...OH LOOK AT ME being a badass.  It's doesn't look right in this show.  It would be fine in a superhero show like Arrow or Supergirl....but no...not here. 

Yeah, Supernatural is more gritty in its fight scenes. It did stand out.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah, Supernatural is more gritty in its fight scenes. It did stand out.

To me, it was such an obvious "see look at her. She's cooler than everyone!" and I would say the same thing if it was Sam or Dean or Cas or anyone else in the show that did that. Who directed this episode?

[patty1h]

My head dropped to my chest, I closed my eyes and said “oh, please, no” when Jack decided not to leave and to sit at the bedside of the rescued girl. I do not want to see human!Jack fall in love, nor Cas stepping up to teach him the basics of interpersonal relationships. That is not what I want to see when I watch this show — The CW has plenty of other programs for that.

Other than that, I got nothing. The plot with that girl popping up from last season did not pull me in.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

More importantly, why didn't they salt and burn her body?  I mean that is Hunter 101.  Cas knows this.  I'm so fucking tired of this show making Cas look stupid.  He can't heal the girl because Jack has to be set up to save the day.   The devaluation of other characters to prop Jack and the Wayward Sisters is really obnoxious. 

Louder, please.

I still don't understand the pristine body in a morgue locker. Was it an actual morgue? Does the bunker have its own?

2 minutes ago, patty1h said:

My head dropped to my chest, I closed my eyes and said “oh, please, no” when Jack decided not to leave and to sit at the bedside of the rescued girl. I do not want to see human!Jack fall in love, nor Cas stepping up to teach him the basics of interpersonal relationships. That is not what I want to see when I watch this show — The CW has plenty of other programs for that.

Other than that, I got nothing. The plot with that girl popping up from last season did not pull me in.

It was seriously bad Lifetime movie of the week writing. And now we'll have tubercular Jack coughing prettily into his hanky whilst the family wrings their hands over his deathbed. Good grief, it's worse than daytime tv. It has no place Supernatural.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, it was such an obvious "see look at her. She's cooler than everyone!" and I would say the same thing if it was Sam or Dean or Cas or anyone else in the show that did that. Who directed this episode?

As if they needed that after she first kicked three adults' asses, one of whom is a cop and two who are Winchesters. Then took out all the monsters. After they went out of their way to tell us she was just as human as OG!Kaia (so it would be even worse that Killer!Dean punched her in the face). The pose was just icing on an very bad cake. Oy, I can't with this nonsense.

[Commando Cody]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not ten minutes in before Dean called himself a dick. And it went down hill from there. I know I said I wouldn't watch, but it was like a train wreck - I couldn't look away.

It was like a really bad after school special, complete with teenagers teaching dumb old adults life lessons.

My thoughts were "After School Special" as well. 

That girl with the spear is a terrible actor.  I guess Jody confirmed that Dream Walker Girl and Badly Written Girl had a thing.  I cringe whenever they mention her. Even Jody seems tired of her shit. 

This episode was like a rehash of Demon Dean and the first blade.  Only now replaced with Alternative World Michael and a sword that can kill him. Plus Jack's coughing up blood was like Sam coughing up blood during the trials. I felt like I was watching a reboot of past episodes. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

That girl with the spear is a terrible actor.  I guess Jody confirmed that Dream Walker Girl and Badly Written Girl had a thing.  I cringe whenever they mention her. Even Jody seems tired of her shit. 

And this has after-school special written all over it, too. I am ALL FOR representation on the show - absolutely. But they treat this like Claire is pining for the lost love of her life. I realize they are teens and every love seems like 'the one', but they knew each other for a hot minute, ffs.

[Bobcatkitten]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And this has after-school special written all over it, too. I am ALL FOR representation on the show - absolutely. But they treat this like Claire is pining for the lost love of her life. I realize they are teens and every love seems like 'the one', but they knew each other for a hot minute, ffs.

Yeah, they spent like literally a day together and it has been months people....

[ZennyKenny]

Wait, was EvilKaia's remarks about Dean being the same as Michael supposed to have weight to them? Because I just thought she was antagonizing him just to get a rise, the same as demons have done in the past. I didn't think we were supposed to seriously take that as food for thought that Dean is a bully. Cos if so, that's a big ol' NOPE from me. Dean is NOT a bully.

Edited October 26, 2018 by ZennyKenny

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

Wait, was EvilKaia's remarks about Dean being the same as Michael supposed to have weight to them? Because I just thought she was antagonizing him just to get a rise, the same as demons have done in the past. I didn't think we were supposed to seriously take that as food for thought that Dean is a bully. Cos if so, that's a big ol' NOPE from me. Dean is NOT a bully.

 

She was antagonizing him, but when they combine that with Dean flashing back to the moments she's digging at, I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to believe she's right. At the very least, Dean believes it. And they've gone to that well too many times in recent seasons for it not to mean anything.

I just saw Berens defend this very thing on Twitter (thanks @ILoveReading) - and I don't buy it. And if that was his intention, just to heap a little more onto Dean's shoulders, it's still shitty. It could've been mitigated by Sam taking up for him *at all*. Jody's vague 'nothing to apologize for' wasn't enough.

Edited October 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bergamot]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just saw Berens defend this very thing on Twitter

What did he say?

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

Wait, was EvilKaia's remarks about Dean being the same as Michael supposed to have weight to them? Because I just thought she was antagonizing him just to get a rise, the same as demons have done in the past. I didn't think we were supposed to seriously take that as food for thought that Dean is a bully. Cos if so, that's a big ol' NOPE from me. Dean is NOT a bully.

No, it wasn't about saying he was just like Michael. (I don't even know what was supposed to be conveyed by that remark -- that Dean is just like an inhumanly strong and powerful and merciless archangel? That he has been not nice to Kaia?)  It was about bringing up Dean threatening the other Kaia with a gun -- something that was never brought up or discussed or resolved, but instead was reserved just for this special moment, so that Kaia could use it against him in a way that completely stripped it of its context or any reminder of what was going on with Dean when it happened. It was about Dean punching out Kaia, and tying up this little girl with big ropes, and then having the story reveal that Michael had sent monsters to hunt her. It was about Dean threatening to get answers out of Kaia, and have Sam and Jody react with horror and dismay.

It is about having the story go to great lengths to show us how strong and cool and awesome Kaia is, and then have her call Dean weak and bravely heap scorn on him as he ineffectually threatens her. (Have we ever seen Dean be so un-scary and pathetic before when he is threatening someone? Not that I can remember. It's almost like all of sudden we are supposed to see him -- could it be? -- as a weak, ineffectual bully.) It is about having Dean, afterwards, struggle with guilt -- not for "being like Michael" but for being weak and stupid, and not having Sam strongly refute the very idea.

So yeah, absolutely, the narrative does give weight to what Kaia says about Dean. When the angel Flagstaff, in "Stairway to Heaven", who is being interrogated by Dean, scornfully calls him nothing but a killer with oceans of blood on his hands, and says that she hates "men like him" ("Honey, there ain't no other men like me" Dean responds) -- that didn't bother me at all. There have been strong anti-human feelings among the angels from the moment they appeared, and the scene tied into that and into what was going on with the angels at that time, and I never felt like the story was saying that Dean was nothing but a killer -- Flagstaff was.

Now, maybe if later on, the show has Kaia get to know Dean as the strong and good person that he is, and she indicates that she was wrong to say what she said here, then I will happily withdraw my objections. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

still don't understand the pristine body in a morgue locker. Was it an actual morgue? Does the bunker have its own?

if they did why didn't Sam put Dean's body on ice after he was killed by Metatron.  Or did Jack just put that body in the big ole freezer in the kitchen? LOL

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

if they did why didn't Sam put Dean's body on ice after he was killed by Metatron.  Or did Jack just put that body in the big ole freezer in the kitchen? LOL

Probably because he was calling Crowley immediately and was expecting Dean to be dead for just a few more minutes. Dean probably would have gotten mad if he had woken up in a freezer.  Would have made lots of popsicle jokes, LOL.

Or, the morgue freezer might be an update by them.  Although, I think that's something we would have to see them purchasing.  And having delivered to their super secret bunker.  Because it wouldn't fit in the Impala.  

Or, maybe Dean built it from scratch.  With the lack of Walkmans, he couldn't make another EMF reader so decided to go bigger.  Yeah, that's the one I'm going with.

BTW, I hope none of these other hutners are going into the Fortress of Deanitude. Is that right?  I think I got that wrong, but whatever he called it, that's only for Dean and Sam. And maybe Cas.

[AwesomO4000]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It could've been mitigated by Sam taking up for him *at all*.

Dean doesn't listen to Sam when he tells him stuff like that anyway, or at least he never has before... If anything it might've made Dean worry more, because he might think Sam had a reason to be telling him not to worry or to be sticking up for him - like he might think Sam was trying to sugar coat something. For me, Sam telling Dean he did what he had to do was the right thing, because in my opinion that should resonate most with Dean. It's true, and it doesn't add more that could be interpreted as sugar coating.

Not sure what I'm saying makes sense, so I'll try to explain my reasoning with an example. For example, if hubby and I have somewhere important to go, and I think my outfit looks terrible on me that day for whatever my moody reasoning is... my hubby telling me that it looks fine or it'll do, for me, is going to go over better than "no, no, not at all, it looks great..." because I'm going to wonder why he's saying it looks great if I think it looks terrible, and maybe read into it an unsaid "now let's get going, so we're not late. We don't have time for you to change anyway, so that's gonna have to do," even if he wasn't thinking that... If I am in a mood, and think my outfit looks bad, him telling me I look great would - in a way, in the mood I'm in - be telling me "you're just seeing it wrongly."

Until Dean sees it himself, he's not going to see it, in my opinion, and people trying to spout the opposite of what he's saying - rather than some supportive truths that don't just contradict what he's saying - might potentially come across to Dean like they aren't listening to him and just want to placate him.

In my opinion anyway.

10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Aside from saving himself from the Empty Keeper last year and a couple of references to off-screen victories, I really can't remember the last time Cas has saved anyone, come up with a clever plan that succeeded, or generally done anything all that important.

Ooh ooh, I have one. At the end of season 9, Castiel had that awesome idea that exposed Metatron as the fraud he was and he succeeded in finding and breaking the tablet, so that Metatron lost his god-like power and couldn't continue his plan to screw over / destroy humanity.

[gonzosgirrl]

Sorry @AwesomO4000I know what you're saying, but I'm just all out of patience waiting for somebody, anybody to step up for Dean. It doesn't matter if he would've 'heard' it in the moment, it needed to be said. IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

What did he say?

Literally that. It was not authorial intent that Kaih's words be taken as truth. Sorry, but I'm not buying. What else is he going to say? Yes, it was? Lol, no.

It's happened too often in the past few seasons. I don't believe him.

Sorry, I can't copy the link on my phone. I'll edit it in later. 

[Bergamot]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sorry @AwesomO4000I know what you're saying, but I'm just all out of patience waiting for somebody, anybody to step up for Dean. It doesn't matter if he would've 'heard' it in the moment, it needed to be said. IMO.

I agree, but I also want to add that I don't see Sam's response as revealing anything about who Sam is in this case. It's just that, in my opinion, it was written that way because having him say anything else would not have fit in with the effect that they wanted from the story.

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Literally that. It was not authorial intent that Kaih's words be taken as truth. Sorry, but I'm not buying. What else is he going to say? Yes, it was? Lol, no.

Thanks G-girrl! Huh, I didn't know that the writers actually responded to criticism on Twitter. Sounds to me like something might have hit a nerve -- very interesting! Well, I know what I saw and how it came across.  As far as I'm concerned, either the way it came across was intentional, in which case I'm not buying it either, or it was unintentional, in which case it was poorly written. And if I could talk to the writer directly, I would challenge him to show us what I mentioned above: have Kaia interact with Dean, have those interactions change her mind about him, and have her say so.

[FlickChick]

20 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, it was stupid.  They've been around that block too many times for me to call it a smart move.

Well, I wish Dean didn't do it - then Sam and Jack would have been dead and we could have Cas and Dean fighting for the fate of the world. Double win.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Well, I wish Dean didn't do it - then Sam and Jack would have been dead and we could have Cas and Dean fighting for the fate of the world. Double win.

And Ketch.  Dean would also have his home back because the AU people woudlnt't be able to function without their chief

Edited October 26, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ster1]

As a whole, Season 14 hasn't been working for me (at least so far). It feels like the writing is struggling to find cohesion and balance between its multiple storylines. This episode might have worked to help bring things together - Jensen always brings a consistency to Dean, no matter what trauma of the week the poor guy's gone through. I enjoyed the small moments, like Dean's disgust as he stripped off Michael's clothes,  his fear at the sight of the new scar, the expression on both Dean and Cas' faces during their reunion, Sam's smile during Dean's reaction at his beard. Sadly, the episode really went downhill after Super Kaia showed up. I used to be indifferent to Wayward but now,  I resent anything to do with that failed spinoff.  Berens/Dabbs can't let go of their obsession and it's dragging down our show.  Some teen chick singlehandedly overpowering grace-enhanced monsters, 3 highly trained hunters, and a freaking archangel?????  No, no, no.  

If Dabb and Berens are so bitter that they're going to insert their Mary Sues into the mother show no matter what, then they need to move on. A bit of Wayward would have been okay but forcing their vanity project into the mytharc was just too much for me. The last straw was when Super Kaia called out Dean. i don't care what Berens tweeted about authorial intent. The fact that Jody and Sam were clutching their pearls over Dean's treatment of Kaia and didn't stand up for Dean during Kaia's verbal takedown implied that what she said was true. And if Berens (and Dabb) really feel that way about a lead character, then I don't know what to say.  

The Jack scenes also didn't work for me. Poor Cas, relegated to bait, babysitter, psychotherapist, and dad. It's hard to remember that, at one time, Cas was a fearsome angel of the Lord. While I appreciate his mellowing over the years, I miss his sass and badassery. I hope we'll get to see that soon, instead of this incessant propping up of yet another teen Sue character. Jack's acting like a spoiled brat but everyone's busy tiptoeing around and excusing his petulance.  Lately, whenever Jack shows up,  everything comes to a grinding halt while he mopes and everyone gives him pep talk #4,897.  I really don't care that Jack's lost his superpowers and has to live like the rest of us lowly mud monkeys.  I'd hoped that maybe helping Lora would snap Jack out of his self-pitying but now that he's apparently contracted TB, I'm sure it's back to woobieland.

(On the shallow side, Michael fighting was HAWT *fans self*)

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Thanks G-girrl! Huh, I didn't know that the writers actually responded to criticism on Twitter. Sounds to me like something might have hit a nerve -- very interesting!

The tweet he responded to seems to be missing, but it's pretty clear what he is responding to. And I agree- maybe a little too close to home. I simply don't believe him.

[FlickChick]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The tweet he responded to seems to be missing, but it's pretty clear what he is responding to. And I agree- maybe a little too close to home. I simply don't believe him.

Kindly note "semi-villain" - that says that Not!Kia is going to be a hero and who knows? maybe even kill Michael!!!! God, I hate these writers!!!

[ster1]

https://twitter.com/adder574/status/1055664868592926720

 

I'm guessing Berens was replying to this? 

 

(sorry, I'm not sure how to post the actual tweet and not just the link?)

Edited October 26, 2018 by ster1

[Lastcall]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The tweet he responded to seems to be missing, but it's pretty clear what he is responding to. And I agree- maybe a little too close to home. I simply don't believe him.

I hope this is a sign of things to come. This statement and Dabb’s spin control the last couple of interviews seem to indicate that there is some blowback. Be it the CW, Jensen or the tweens living in Dabb’s twitter bubble something is getting to them. Someone needs to fix this before Dabb gets to write his series finale to punish all the fans who didn’t support his vision.

[Casseiopeia]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The tweet he responded to seems to be missing, but it's pretty clear what he is responding to. And I agree- maybe a little too close to home. I simply don't believe him.

Berens wrote the episode where Dean pulled the gun on Kaia.  He chose to use that moment (out of context) to show why Kaia attacked Dean and called him out on his behavior towards young women.  The "authorial statement" seems pretty clear.

[BabySpinach]

27 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

It is about having the story go to great lengths to show us how strong and cool and awesome Kaia is, and then have her call Dean weak and bravely heap scorn on him as he ineffectually threatens her. (Have we ever seen Dean be so un-scary and pathetic before when he is threatening someone? Not that I can remember. It's almost like all of sudden we are supposed to see him -- could it be? -- as a weak, ineffectual bully.) It is about having Dean, afterwards, struggle with guilt -- not for "being like Michael" but for being weak and stupid, and not having Sam strongly refute the very idea.

So yeah, absolutely, the narrative does give weight to what Kaia says about Dean. When the angel Flagstaff, in "Stairway to Heaven", who is being interrogated by Dean, scornfully calls him nothing but a killer with oceans of blood on his hands, and says that she hates "men like him" ("Honey, there ain't no other men like me" Dean responds) -- that didn't bother me at all. There have been strong anti-human feelings among the angels from the moment they appeared, and the scene tied into that and into what was going on with the angels at that time, and I never felt like the story was saying that Dean was nothing but a killer -- Flagstaff was.

Now, maybe if later on, the show has Kaia get to know Dean as the strong and good person that he is, and she indicates that she was wrong to say what she said here, then I will happily withdraw my objections. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Yes, thank you. Dean wasn't supposed to be sympathetic while he was being written as a harsh, gung-ho "dick". The sympathy only came when he was talking shit about himself at the end. These writers are NOT subtle.

When Dean was threatening Kaia, I didn't feel bad for him or even take his side. I was annoyed and kind of embarrassed because Kaia was so obviously not intimidated (which makes her look more like a moron than a badass, but Berens seems to have a very amateurish view of what makes a character "cool") and Dean was just muttering half-assed rebuttals to her insults. If Kaia had even looked slightly scared, that would have made a huge difference for both characters. Kaia would have been a bit more authentic and human, and Dean wouldn't have come across as so completely, embarrassingly ineffectual. What happened to the guy who made Metatron quake just by entering the room? I miss him.

[gonzosgirrl]

I had actually forgotten Berens wrote the episode where Dean pulled the gun on Kaia. That makes his denial even more suspect (not to say full of shit).