S09.E03: Warning Signs

[OoohMaggie]

An AMC clip breaking down Ep 3 

https://www.amc.com/shows/the-walking-dead/video-extras/season-09/episode-03/spoilers-inside-the-walking-dead-season-9-episode-3

Edited October 23, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[Colorado David]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Rick: That wound on Justin... looks like a puncture.  I wondered if it could be from a knife, but it’s small, round, and clean.  Smaller and cleaner than a bullet hole.  It kinda looks like an arrow hit him.  Or a bolt.

Daryl: This the kind of shit you used to do?

 

I totally agree, Daryl; that was a load of shit.  Standard speargun shafts range anywhere between 6.5mm (.25”) to 7.5mm (.295”) - so realistically, a full metal jacket round from ANY of the following rifle or handgun calibers could have made an identical or nearly-identical wound:

• .223 Remington / 5.56x45mm NATO (rifle)
• .243 (rifle)
• .25 Auto (handgun)
• 6.5mm (rifle)
• .270 (rifle)
• 7mm (multiple handgun/rifle variants)
• .30 Luger (handgun)
• .30-06, .30-30, .30 Carbine, or 300 AAC Blackout (rifle)
• .308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO (rifle)

A FMJ rifle round would be much more likely to make a “clean” through-and-through hole than a handgun - but depending on multiple factors (distance from target, thickness of torso, bullet path avoidance of / contact with cartilage/bone, etc.), neither could definitively be ruled out.

So - I guess this means Ricky was a shitty sheriff’s deputy, who also liked to jump to conclusions...?  ;>

 

 

agree totally. rick eyeballed it and guessed, a forensic pathologist could MAYBE see a difference in the puncture type based on how ragged the skin was around the wound. this is the show totally shortcutting to a conclusion.

[OoohMaggie]

31 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

has anyone created  like a family tree type graphic showing who is connected to whom and what groups they are a part of? that'd be immensely helpful (and quite an undertaking.) I know people have done it for Game of Thrones.

Hey Colorado, I don’t know if anyone has created better since, but this old favourite gives info on who belongs to which group, it does go all the way back but is a great source of useless information Lol

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/TV_Series_Characters

Edited October 23, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[Colorado David]

8 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

Hey Colorado, I don’t know if anyone has created better since, but this old favourite gives info on who belongs to which group, it does go all the way back but is a great source of useless information Lol

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/TV_Series_Characters

love it but i need the flipboard style graphic with all the lines interconnecting, with little face graphics of each of the characters, and little trivia like alive/dead, did this person betray this person, etc.

[Daltrey]

9 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

Lol, thanks your a star, it was driving me nuts, I’m glad I’m not the only one who struggled with it. 

Regarding the ‘spear’, in the clip it does show Daryl giving the thing a good look over before handing it to her, so I’m sure the thought must have crossed  his mind. Maybe he’s becoming a bit more diplomatic rather than  just jumping straight in.

Who leaves valuable ammo in a Walker anyway? 

No problem, I help when I can, lol.

Maybe....I'll give him/them the benefit of doubt. ;)

I know, right?!! :D

[WalkerTalker]

1 hour ago, OoohMaggie said:

Hey Colorado, I don’t know if anyone has created better since, but this old favourite gives info on who belongs to which group, it does go all the way back but is a great source of useless information Lol

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/TV_Series_Characters

Hey, pretty neat chart. I have never seen this chart before. Thx for sharing. 

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

Considering how much Negan likes to talk on - and on - and on about his little Neglet, I doubt if in reality it’s long enough to reach through the bars.

For all his bragging/talking about it, I have doubts it even works at all. Probably why his harem looked so bored.

Edited October 23, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[Deadheads...]

Daryl needs to shut down the sanctuary and send the saviors to the different towns. Make them work off there crimes. and grow the towns bigger. easier to keep an eye on them. and Ocean side could use a few good men around.. I know that's where I would want to go to.. I'm sure they would keep me very busy..  

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Daryl just needs to get him some loving from someone.  Thought that might happen with Carol, but that's been shot down it seems... Any thoughts on any of the other gals left?

[Daltrey]

3 minutes ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Daryl just needs to get him some loving from someone.  Thought that might happen with Carol, but that's been shot down it seems... Any thoughts on any of the other gals left?

.....Aaron? :P

[UNOSEZ]

I don't understand why so many ppl are upset that rick was having a day off??.. Is he not allowed?? ..  I liked his talk with Carol i read the comments before i saw the episode so i was expecting him to be much much worse... Personally I could do without the saviors.. But I don't love Maggie and Daryl both trying... I thought Maggie was being disingenuous when she said they tried it ricks way... They've seemed opposed and disgusted with this plan all season.. And that's ok.. I get the anger.. But don't pretend you've been trying.. Like rick said to Daryl.. Let ppl see you try.. It might've made a diff... And part of the problems seemed to be about the missing trade items.. And if the oceanside ladies have been picking off saviors.. They were inadvertently making tensions rise.. I havent always agreed with Rick sometimes I didn't even like him.. But talk that he's fine as long as his family is safe or he's forgotten Daryl is his brother feels over the top to me

[wrlord]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how they telegraphed that it was Oceanside when Cyndie mentioned that they used to live near that zombie house. The way her line was delivered and the way the camera lingered on her made it clear that she was involved.

The atrocity committed by that blonde savior at the end - shooting an 11 year old boy, and smiling about it -- there was no way Daryl and Maggie weren't going to let Oceanside have their justice (not revenge) over that.  That's up there with Nazi levels of psychopathy.  One thinks even Rick would have walked away.

[OoohMaggie]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

For all his bragging/talking about it, I have doubts it even works at all. Probably why his harem looked so bored.

And why he remains childless, maybe it’s not only Eugene’s bullets firing blanks!

Edited October 24, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[LydiaMoon1]

9 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I don't understand why so many ppl are upset that rick was having a day off??.. Is he not allowed?? ..  I liked his talk with Carol i read the comments before i saw the episode so i was expecting him to be much much worse... Personally I could do without the saviors.. But I don't love Maggie and Daryl both trying... I thought Maggie was being disingenuous when she said they tried it ricks way... They've seemed opposed and disgusted with this plan all season.. And that's ok.. I get the anger.. But don't pretend you've been trying.. Like rick said to Daryl.. Let ppl see you try.. It might've made a diff... And part of the problems seemed to be about the missing trade items.. And if the oceanside ladies have been picking off saviors.. They were inadvertently making tensions rise.. I havent always agreed with Rick sometimes I didn't even like him.. But talk that he's fine as long as his family is safe or he's forgotten Daryl is his brother feels over the top to me

Exactly. While I think Rick's decision to spare Negan was dumb, at least I think Rick is trying to make things work for everybody. This 'Rick has forgotten his brother Daryl' nonsense is baffling to me too.  So Rick is to blame that Daryl has, once again, decided to go rogue? Like the time Daryl got Glenn killed or when he got impatient (on like Day 2 of the war) and crashed a garbage truck into the Sanctuary, allowing Negan and his goons to escape and destroy Alexandria? So now, Daryl and Maggie have been pouting and plotting against Rick for the last 18 months because they're mad that Rick let Negan live? Yeah, they're anger is justified, but you mean to tell me that in 18 whole months neither one found the time or the balls to sit down with Rick and Michonne and air their grievances? Rick and Michonne are just supposed to deduce their level of dissatisfaction by...what?...osmosis? They can't open their mouths? In fact, can none of these disgruntled people open their mouths and air their grievances and pursue an agreeable compromise and resolution? Are they all toddlers? Is acting out like bratty children behind Rick and Michonne's backs their only recourse? Ummm.  Okay.

<insert Viola Davis eyeroll>

[nodorothyparker]

I've gotten the impression from conversations we've seen that they've all done plenty of talking over the 18-month time skip.  It doesn't seem like any of them are really listening though.  Rick is so entrenched in his vision of his new world order and Maggie and Daryl and all the other randoms the Saviors hurt in their very justifiable grievances that they don't want to hear it.  Neither side seems willing to concede that the other has a legitimate point.

Rick's talk with Carol was lovely but I really wished he'd been sharing that admission that he thinks about killing Negan every single morning too with Maggie and Daryl.  It would have given them all a common starting point at least.

[iMonrey]

It seems to me a lot of this angst over the Saviors is needless. Those who want to help the other communities can line up on one side and the bitter Bettys like Jed who are just in the way can line up on the other side and then be told to pack up their shit and go. Go start your own community somewhere else.

On re-watch it really cracked me up that the plan to find whoever was taking out the missing Saviors was "let's just wander around in the woods." I mean, what exactly did they hope to find just wandering aimlessly around in the woods? Did they think they would just stumble upon someone or some random group sitting around waiting to be discovered?

How and why on earth is Gabriel still wearing a priest's outfit, every day, since the day we first met him - what, three years, four years ago? Not only would that thing be pretty rank but it would also be in tatters. Or are we to gather that someone in Alexandria is making him new priest outfits all the time?

[Ohwell]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

How and why on earth is Gabriel still wearing a priest's outfit, every day, since the day we first met him - what, three years, four years ago? Not only would that thing be pretty rank but it would also be in tatters. Or are we to gather that someone in Alexandria is making him new priest outfits all the time?

I thought I saw what looked like a makeshift church in one of the scenes, so maybe that's why he's still wearing it?  Even so, you'd think he would change into regular clothes when he's not conducting a service.  But I agree, his outfit should be pretty rank and tattered.   Maybe Jadis/Anne made him a new outfit.

[JackONeill]

1 minute ago, Ohwell said:

 But I agree, his outfit should be pretty rank and tattered.  

 

I think "rank and tattered" have taken on a whole new level of meanings nowadays.

[CletusMusashi]

On 10/22/2018 at 2:55 PM, LydiaMoon1 said:

IDK why they hired ZM either, but it doesn't surprise me that they've already gotten rid of him.  TWD/AMC wouldn't even pay CR. You know they're not going to cough up the money to pay  "name" actors, except for short runs. I'm sure Jed, or Mud, or whatever he's called came cheap. In fact, as the ratings and ad revenue go down you can expect a lot more B-list (C or D-list) actors and short, but heavily promoted, runs by actors that are more known.

Is that what helicopter guy was going on about?

DD and the GPK were part of a conspiracy to suck all the A-list actors away from the show!

[CletusMusashi]

Deleted, because all my "Arat" jokes were done already...

Edited October 24, 2018 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

On 10/22/2018 at 8:21 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Let them rape, torture or kill Michonne, and yes - you'll see him forget the Edict of Coral and do something. Or maybe if they kidnapped Shane's daughter, but I'm not positive about that.

He might just assume they were the new babysitter.

Edited October 24, 2018 by CletusMusashi

[LydiaMoon1]

19 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Is that what helicopter guy was going on about?

DD and the GPK were part of a conspiracy to suck all the A-list actors away from the show!

I wouldn't be surprised.

[CletusMusashi]

On 10/23/2018 at 9:54 AM, Kdawg82 said:

We needed Abraham here in all his ginger glory asking "who's Olivia?" 

I know who Olivia was but still ...Abe always with the important questions. 

Now I want to watch the show every week with him, just yelling:

"Who's Neil? Who's Ken? Who's that guy? Is that the same savior from the other scene?"

[Kdawg82]

9 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Now I want to watch the show every week with him, just yelling:

"Who's Neil? Who's Ken? Who's that guy? Is that the same savior from the other scene?"

Lmao! Totally! The way he just brusquely deadpans those questions.  Seriously who are half these people!? I dont like anonymous characters being shoved down our throats and it's happening more with the integration of these enclaves and primary characters are getting written into crap material throwaways. And can I say I long for the days when Rick told Negan to his face "see this hatchet? I'm gonna kill you with it. Not today, not tomorrow...."- Rick, KILL HIM WITH THE HATCHET! I loved that hatchet. 

[mightysparrow]

I'm the person who said that Rick had forgotten his brother Daryl and I stand by my 'nonsense' (insert eye-roll from Academy Award winning actor of your choice).  If Rick doesn't know that his people are upset then he's not only an idiot, he's blind which aren't good qualities for a leader. 

It's crystal-clear that the overwhelming majority of the people Rick 'leads' aren't happy with his choice to not only keep Negan and the people who terrorized them for years alive, but to force them to live together.   Rick never allowed anyone who hurt any of his loved ones to live but Maggie is supposed to accept the people who murdered her husband.  Because Negan definitely swung the bat but I seem to recall all the other Saviours who set the trap and backed Negan's brutality.

Telling people to simply suck it up because it's the right thing to do is pretty rich coming from Rick Grimes.  Isn't he the guy who killed Alexandria's doctor because he wanted to fuck the doctor's wife?  I know we're supposed to see Rick and Michonne as the Romeo and Juliette of the ZA but the fact is that Rick didn't give Michonne a second glance when the owl-maker was around.  And he used the same 'suck it up' argument with the owl-maker's son as he tried to play substitute dad, going so far as to give the kid shooting lessons.  We know how well that worked out, don't we.

Rick HAS betrayed his brother Daryl and all the people he called family when he needed them to take care of his kids.  He doesn't need them anymore and he clearly doesn't care how they feel or what they think. 

[raven]

23 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

If Rick doesn't know that his people are upset then he's not only an idiot, he's blind which aren't good qualities for a leader. 

I would argue that Rick knows they are upset; he acknowledged it this episode.  Everyone's going to be upset some of the time.  Everyone's murdered someone.  Yes, we've been following Rick's group as the Good Guys, but they, at the behest of Jesus and led by Rick, murdered a whole bunch of sleeping Saviors.   We can argue the bit points over and over, who did what first, which atrocity was worse but that's the point - everyone has.    Jerry said it and no one had an answer, about what happens if they caught Zach McGowan's killer - do we Gregory him or Negan him?  With Michonne coming up with a charter, maybe they can all agree. 

Maggie murdered Gregory because she was pissed off and sick of his shit.  She could have killed Drunk Dad but he reminded her of Herschel or something.  So yeah, we can say that Gregory tried to kill her first, more than once, but depending on what state you're in when in the US, in the normal world, he probably wouldn't have been put to death.

They need to decide if they're going to have rule of law or not.  Do they have the resources do keep a prisoner for 30 yrs or more?  If not, what do they do?  The prisoner could do some kind of manual labor, under guard, to continue to contribute.  If what they've done is so heinous that can't be considered, there needs to be agreement about what happens.

Daryl needs to suck it up, accept some responsibility or go on his merry way alone.  After Merle kidnapped Glenn and Maggie, leading to their abuse at the hands of the Governor, he wanted everyone to take Merle back; he should have some understanding of what Rick is saying.    Glenn would be alive if Daryl didn't act like an ass.  

I understand why the show did the time jump, but it's kind of a failure because we all wonder why these people have been stewing for 18 mos?  OK, Maggie had a baby, was trying to lead and deal with a newborn.  She gets a pass.  Everyone else comes off as passive aggressive, like they accepted the situation, tried to make it work for a relatively short amount of time and then wahhhh it's too much work, it's so harrrd.

As far as the remaining Saviors, Our Group won (through deus ex Eugene); disarmed them and are having them work for food and they stay in the Savior compound while being supervised by someone from Our Group.  The Saviors are conquered people who, for the most part, realize they could have all been shot.  We see this in the first ep of the season.  The Saviors were growing their own food but had a bad crop or something.  Then someone is picking them off and I get why they might be a bit upset and think it was someone from Hilltop or Alexandria. 

My entire rant is contingent on the fact that NEGAN SHOULD BE DEAD.  Dead, dead, dead.  Rick should have killed him and then tried to make peace between the groups.  It is ridiculous IMO that the show wants us to accept this.

[mightysparrow]

3 minutes ago, raven said:

I would argue that Rick knows they are upset; he acknowledged it this episode.  Everyone's going to be upset some of the time.  Everyone's murdered someone.  Yes, we've been following Rick's group as the Good Guys, but they, at the behest of Jesus and led by Rick, murdered a whole bunch of sleeping Saviors.   We can argue the bit points over and over, who did what first, which atrocity was worse but that's the point - everyone has.    Jerry said it and no one had an answer, about what happens if they caught Zach McGowan's killer - do we Gregory him or Negan him?  With Michonne coming up with a charter, maybe they can all agree. 

Maggie murdered Gregory because she was pissed off and sick of his shit.  She could have killed Drunk Dad but he reminded her of Herschel or something.  So yeah, we can say that Gregory tried to kill her first, more than once, but depending on what state you're in when in the US, in the normal world, he probably wouldn't have been put to death.

They need to decide if they're going to have rule of law or not.  Do they have the resources do keep a prisoner for 30 yrs or more?  If not, what do they do?  The prisoner could do some kind of manual labor, under guard, to continue to contribute.  If what they've done is so heinous that can't be considered, there needs to be agreement about what happens.

Daryl needs to suck it up, accept some responsibility or go on his merry way alone.  After Merle kidnapped Glenn and Maggie, leading to their abuse at the hands of the Governor, he wanted everyone to take Merle back; he should have some understanding of what Rick is saying.    Glenn would be alive if Daryl didn't act like an ass.  

I understand why the show did the time jump, but it's kind of a failure because we all wonder why these people have been stewing for 18 mos?  OK, Maggie had a baby, was trying to lead and deal with a newborn.  She gets a pass.  Everyone else comes off as passive aggressive, like they accepted the situation, tried to make it work for a relatively short amount of time and then wahhhh it's too much work, it's so harrrd.

My entire rant is contingent on the fact that NEGAN SHOULD BE DEAD.  Dead, dead, dead.  Rick should have killed him and then tried to make peace between the groups.  It is ridiculous IMO that the show wants us to accept this.

Very well said.

You make an excellent point about Rick's midnight raid.  In a lot of ways, that set off this whole nightmare.  I don't believe that the Sanctuary didn't know that Alexandria existed.  For whatever reason, Negan had decided not to mess with Alexandria.  Maybe because they were too well fortified or maybe he realized that Deanna (was that her name?) had bigger balls than he did.  Rick's choice to kill a bunch of men in their sleep for some produce was a huge mistake.  Most of his group thought it was a big mistake and told him it was a big mistake, but in the end they backed his play because they were loyal. 

There is a lot of passive-aggressive bullshit going on and I agree that it's got to stop.  That's why I think it would be a good thing if Maggie and Daryl ARE going to kill Negan.  It won't work but someone needs to DO SOMETHING.  That's why I'm so disappointed in Michonne.  She's one of the smartest people in the ZA, way smarter than her boyfriend.  She's been thinking about creating a set of laws for a while.  And I have no doubt that she also knows how folks are feeling.  So why has she let this bullshit go on for so long?  Michonne, of all people has to know that Carl would never have wanted this.  If she's thinking of bringing a baby into the world, the first thing she's going to have to do is put her little man out to pasture.   He's in way over his head and if she really loves him, she should tell him so, instead of sneaking out at night doing whatever the hell it is she's doing.

A council needs to be formed, trials need to be held and punishment needs to be handed out.  If some of the Saviours are really sincere about wanting to be a part of the community, they can stay.  The rest should be told to hit the road.  Maybe then people can move forward, TOGETHER.

[Kdawg82]

3 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

council needs to be formed, trials need to be held and punishment needs to be handed out.  If some of the Saviours are really sincere about wanting to be a part of the community, they can stay.  The rest should be told to hit the road.  Maybe then people can move forward, TOGETHER.

Rick not killing Negan is him trying to show his UN-negan-ness by keeping him alive.  One huge, painful act of restraint to show the way...but the day to day issues are what people SEE. Do they even know for sure or CARE If Negan is still alive ?! Who knows? As someone said "missing the forest through the trees." Rick's point can be easily missed. Saviors want weapons, not Negan in a cell as a show of good will. Negan alive, dead, walker/neutral- the saviors would STILL want weapons.  A charter would STILL need to be drawn up per Michonne.  

[raven]

1 minute ago, mightysparrow said:

You make an excellent point about Rick's midnight raid.  In a lot of ways, that set off this whole nightmare. 

It's what precipitated Negan killing Abraham (Glenn's death is on Daryl and Negan) but it can be argued that the Saviors had their boots on the necks of the Hilltoppers and had killed at least one, maybe two of their people (I don't remember) for generally no reason and were demanding Gregory's head.  The Hilltoppes were unable to defend themselves and so made an alliance with a stronger group who needed supplies.  The Hilltoppers either outright lied about the strength of the Saviors, which makes them assholes, or didn't know, which makes them dumb.

That's what I mean - we can go on and on about who did what first and who is worse first.  It all depends on who is doing the talking.

Maybe the show is trying to make this point  but if so, they are doing it very badly. 

As far as the 18 months thing, maybe everyone needed time to lick their wounds and get used to the new reality or something. 

Eh, I'm just irritated and taking it out on the Walking Dead universe.

[Iguessnot]

15 hours ago, raven said:

It's what precipitated Negan killing Abraham (Glenn's death is on Daryl and Negan) but it can be argued that the Saviors had their boots on the necks of the Hilltoppers and had killed at least one, maybe two of their people (I don't remember) for generally no reason and were demanding Gregory's head.  The Hilltoppes were unable to defend themselves and so made an alliance with a stronger group who needed supplies.  The Hilltoppers either outright lied about the strength of the Saviors, which makes them assholes, or didn't know, which makes them dumb.

That's what I mean - we can go on and on about who did what first and who is worse first.  It all depends on who is doing the talking.

Maybe the show is trying to make this point  but if so, they are doing it very badly. 

As far as the 18 months thing, maybe everyone needed time to lick their wounds and get used to the new reality or something. 

Eh, I'm just irritated and taking it out on the Walking Dead universe.

Did Rick & company know about the Oceanside slaughter before the midnight raid? I don't remember the timeline.

[nodorothyparker]

Rick and company knew jack all about any of this.  They didn't know any of these other communities beyond Hilltop existed or what had been done to them.  They didn't know that there were a whole lot more Saviors than just that one outpost or that it even was an outpost.  They knew Negan's name but not what he looked like, who he was, or actually anything at all about him.  Our crew made a deal to go out a murderin' based on nothing but the shoddy bit of intel that Jesus gave them and then congratulated themselves on the job they did until the Saviors started coming after them and they realized too late that they'd poked a much much bigger bear than they'd thought.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 The Saviors are conquered people who, for the most part, realize they could have all been shot.  We see this in the first ep of the season.  

That's the thing - the Saviors are not a homogeneous group of people. Some were captured and forced to be slave labor. Others were willing accomplices of Negan's. The former should be only too happy to fall under the jurisdiction of any other community and do whatever is asked in return for shelter and food. The latter should all have been told to hit the road and find some place else to live, at the very least. I don't understand this effort to treat them all as if they're equal now. 

Quote

They didn't know any of these other communities beyond Hilltop existed or what had been done to them.  They didn't know that there were a whole lot more Saviors than just that one outpost or that it even was an outpost.  They knew Negan's name but not what he looked like, who he was, or actually anything at all about him. 

Those were the days.

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Rick and company knew jack all about any of this.  They didn't know any of these other communities beyond Hilltop existed or what had been done to them.  They didn't know that there were a whole lot more Saviors than just that one outpost or that it even was an outpost.  They knew Negan's name but not what he looked like, who he was, or actually anything at all about him.  Our crew made a deal to go out a murderin' based on nothing but the shoddy bit of intel that Jesus gave them and then congratulated themselves on the job they did until the Saviors started coming after them and they realized too late that they'd poked a much much bigger bear than they'd thought.

This was the hubris of CDB based upon their own (necessarily limited) direct experience which has ultimately led to the current decline of the series:

• Rick&Co had encountered few groups larger than theirs, therefore they ASSumed all groups were similarly sized.
• CDB hadn’t encountered any foes they couldn’t overcome, therefore they ASSumed they could take on anybody.

...all unsupported ASSumptions which couldn’t help but eventually lead CDB to walk blindly into the clutches of a Negan.  Such an encounter - and its accompanying fall from grace - was inevitable.

[Fellaway]

I personally agree with Rick that the communities working and cooperating with each other is the best way to move forward for any real and productive future for any of them.  But asking everyone to work and live alongside people they were just at war with is one thing; asking them to work and live alongside someone who murdered your husband, who slaughtered all the males in your community, people who committed war crimes is quite another.  In the real world, even after a war is over, people are called to account for war crimes.  Maybe, going forward, Michonne's charter will cover such situations.  In the present, Rick screwed the pooch on this one.  

[OoohMaggie]

6 hours ago, Fellaway said:

In the real world, even after a war is over, people are called to account for war crimes

The only trouble with a war crimes tribunal, is that it’s only the vanquished who ever end up in the dock. Whatever act the victors commited was  ‘necessary’ 

[Fellaway]

2 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

The only trouble with a war crimes tribunal, is that it’s only the vanquished who ever end up in the dock. Whatever act the victors commited was  ‘necessary’ 

Sure, it's not perfect.  But it's something.

[OoohMaggie]

44 minutes ago, Fellaway said:

Sure, it's not perfect.  But it's something.

But can it be considered ‘something’ if only The Saviours are being judged? Both sides have murdered, Daryl shot the Saviour who surrendered in a deal with Rick, Rick killed the Saviour that just saved him, Glenn knifed a Saviour to death in his sleep, Maggie murdered? Gregory.

Surely the whole point of Coral’s and therefor Rick’s reasoning is that everyone is given the chance to start over, scumbags like Jed obviously have no future in the group, Arat however, seemed to be the perfect example of the new future Rick is seeking. She did wrong in the past, but she is working for the group now. If there is to be a panel of the worthy passing judgment upon others, then shouldn’t that panel be judging everyone on their past actions? 

Dont get me wrong, I’d whack Arat as soon as spit on her, but the new future has to be fair, and more importantly it has to be seen to be fair.

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, OoohMaggie said:

But can it be considered ‘something’ if only The Saviours are being judged? Both sides have murdered, Daryl shot the Saviour who surrendered in a deal with Rick, Rick killed the Saviour that just saved him, Glenn knifed a Saviour to death in his sleep, Maggie murdered? Gregory.

Surely the whole point of Coral’s and therefor Rick’s reasoning is that everyone is given the chance to start over, scumbags like Jed obviously have no future in the group, Arat however, seemed to be the perfect example of the new future Rick is seeking. She did wrong in the past, but she is working for the group now. If there is to be a panel of the worthy passing judgment upon others, then shouldn’t that panel be judging everyone on their past actions? 

Dont get me wrong, I’d whack Arat as soon as spit on her, but the new future has to be fair, and more importantly it has to be seen to be fair.

Interesting point. Where is the difference between what Arat did and when Glenn killed the guy in his sleep? Is it only because Arat acted like Negan does with lots of swaggering attitude, and I'm only assuming this since we didn't see this particular scene, but I can imagine her acting obnoxious, whereas Glenn was contrite? But then that raises another issue with the whole "stand trial" thing—extenuating circumstances. And there are plenty. For nearly everyone. Like someone above mentioned, it would have to be done based upon a war tribunal system since in war lots of things get . . . overlooked. But I think the comparison of Arat and Glenn is a good one to show the problems with "judging." Both of them were trusted lieutenants as opposed to "hired muscle." They both had a voice in things. And they both killed in cold-blood. Okay—now what?

[Smad]

If they want to rebuild why not adopt things they all know from before the world ended. There needs to be some form of government. Then laws can be drawn up. There will never be a functioning world otherwise. I thought that was the point of all these communities coming together. Those communities can be treated either as states or their own countries with their own government. To ensure that all of them come together you have an even higher form of government that is comprised of representatives of each state/country. That's one of the first things that should have happened after S8. I'm not watching S9 but I'm guessing something like this doesn't exist?

[Fellaway]

7 hours ago, OoohMaggie said:

But can it be considered ‘something’ if only The Saviours are being judged?

To my mind, it can be, if even only one person is brought to justice for their crimes.  Not "enough," certainly, but "something."  And I totally agree, justice should be brought to bear on war criminals on both sides of a conflict.  And there have been cases in the real world.  In the WD world?  Yep, it's definitely one-sided.  History is told by the victors, as they say.  But, hey, Negan's totally doing hard time, right?  Right??

I will never not be on the Negan-should-be-dead bandwagon.

[Fellaway]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

That's one of the first things that should have happened after S8. I'm not watching S9 but I'm guessing something like this doesn't exist?

Not yet, but Michonne is currently working on a charter that will cover all of the communities.  I dunno, it might be better if she actually got together with members of the other communities to work on it together, but, we'll see.  At least Rick is open to it.  

[Smad]

17 hours ago, Fellaway said:

Not yet, but Michonne is currently working on a charter that will cover all of the communities.  I dunno, it might be better if she actually got together with members of the other communities to work on it together, but, we'll see.  At least Rick is open to it.  

This should have long been done. After all there was a time skip and yet they still don't have some kind of established law? Guess I shouldn't be surprised though, after all the idiots are the only ones left alive running things in the ZA.

[Daltrey]

8 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If everyone who has a "beef" takes the "law" into their own hands there will be very few survivors.

Dare to dream! As I said before, they need to thin the herd.

[Macbeth]

On rewatch I noticed that Oceanside kept mentioning how it was Simon that was responsible for all the brutality not Negan.

Because his sorry ass character has to be redeemed. 

[AngelaHunter]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:38 PM, CletusMusashi said:

Now I want to watch the show every week with him, just yelling:

"Who's Neil? Who's Ken? Who's that guy? Is that the same savior from the other scene?"

Hey, that's the way I watch this show!

Who's Jed, anyway?

[Daltrey]

35 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

On 10/24/2018 at 10:38 AM, CletusMusashi said:

Now I want to watch the show every week with him, just yelling:

"Who's Neil? Who's Ken? Who's that guy? Is that the same savior from the other scene?"

Hey, that's the way I watch this show!

Who's Jed, anyway?

Lol, at the risk of being off topic, Micheal Cudlitz has  new show called The Kids Are Alright, for those who didn't know. He plays the dad in a catholic family with like 9 sons. It's set in the seventies and it's pretty funny, I think.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Who's Jed, anyway?

The Savior who:

• Laughed at Justin (Black Sails dude) when the Kingdom kid Henry took Justin down with his staff - Justin had gotten water-greedy, and was being bullying and boorish about it.
• Cost Aaron his arm - Jed’s the one who panicked and let go of the log which rolled down on top of Aaron.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Nashville
Made it better.

[AngelaHunter]

8 hours ago, Nashville said:

The Savior who:

• Laughed at Justin (Black Sails dude) when the Kingdom kid Henry took Justin down with his staff - Justin had gotten water-greedy, and was being bullying and boorish about it.
• Cost Aaron his arm - Jed’s the one who panicked and let go of the log which rolled down on top of Aaron.

Oh, thank you!! Nope, still can't picture him. *Goes to check on YT* Okay I found him (God that Henry is such a brat. "No more water for you!" Who does he think he is - Judge Judy?). Nope, still don't recognize him except as one of the "Bearded Anonymous Savior Guys." 

[Iguessnot]

11 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Lol, at the risk of being off topic, Micheal Cudlitz has  new show called The Kids Are Alright, for those who didn't know. He plays the dad in a catholic family with like 9 sons. It's set in the seventies and it's pretty funny, I think.

I've seen a certain trailer several times but never noticed him. I'll try to watch it.

[Daltrey]

7 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

I've seen a certain trailer several times but never noticed him. I'll try to watch it.

He's clean shaven now and his hair isn't that fiery red anymore but more of a sandy blonde; I'm assuming he dyed it for TWD. It's amazing how different he looks without that 'stache, lol!