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S03.E08: Upstairs/Downstairs


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They might have gone a bit too soapy with that reveal. The nun is Matt's secret mother. That presents a few questions. Did she abandon her child when she felt the call of God? Did she have an affair as a nun and have a secret baby? She couldn't have left her order to be a parent to him when his Dad died or at least told him that he still has some family living?  She'd better have a good explanation.

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Super-hero comics, at their heart, have always been soap operas, with cliff-hanger relationship reveals.  Par for the course.

Gotta say, tho, the execution on this season is just excellent.  After slogging slowly through the other recent Marvel Netflix shows, I had forgetten how good these shows can be.  Eight episodes in, and I don't feel like there's been a filler episode yet. 

The cast is great, especially Fisk and Sister Maggie, the plotting is tight, and I feel like there're real stakes. Not perfect, but head and shoulders above the Marvel TV stuff.

Edited by anville
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The scene between Karen and Fisk was pretty great, very intense. I like her pissed off. 

 

I've always liked Karen (though I know not everyone likes her), mostly because I like Wohl. I roll my eyes a bit when they call her a "great journalist" when I really just think she's good researcher with a reckless need to get to the truth. 

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Episodes like this prove why Daredevil is still my favourite out of all the Marvel shows. They've really plowed through with the story, but doing it in a way that doesn't feel rushed. I do think this season is better than season 2...mostly because there's been no Elektra, so it feels like Matt isn't disconnected from all the other main characters. It's a nice feeling.

I know Ray said that he couldn't prove anything about Dex...but he does have a video of Daredevil speaking to Karen. Could he not just find a tape of Dex speaking and have analysts compare it to the Daredevil voice? Hattley seemed quite content with calling her superiors last episode if Fisk was manipulating them, so I don't see why she wouldn't agree to this.

The good thing about Foggy's district attorney subplot is that it's been used minimally, so it's tolerable. They only use that political storyline when it's necessary. 

Damn on Julie getting killed just as Dex might have actually made progress with her. Also, Dex burns his tapes, but at least Matt grabbed one of them before he bolted. He can use that against Dex later.

That Karen/Fisk scene was fantastic. So much back and forth with who was holding the power. It was captivating to watch.

That ending, though. Honestly, I should be more annoyed than I actually am. But Sister Maggie is such a captivating character, especially with her scenes with Matt. Plus, so many shows prefer to go the route with the father being alive and around, rather than the mother, so I appreciate the change of trope. We'll see how they handle it, I guess.

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On 10/20/2018 at 5:58 AM, snowwhyte said:

They might have gone a bit too soapy with that reveal.

I agree that the way they chose to reveal it was pretty hamhanded. I much preferred how Miller handled it in the comic; much more subtle and indefinite (at least until Kevin Smith's run bluntly drove the point home. Because KS tends to be more blunt in his writing than subtle. Because blunts are such a big part of his life, maybe. Dunno.)

I have really enjoyed the Maggie/Matt scenes, though.

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Karen was in classic reckless, but kind of awesome mode in this one, with her facing off against Fisk and dropping the "I killed Wesley" bombshell to him.  The way his rage was just boiling over was priceless.  Again, risky and dangerous as hell, but a part of me kind of loves it when she just goes all in against the likes him.  Best scene for me so far.  While the majority of the cast play off each other well, Deborah Ann Woll and Vincent D'Onofrio really know how to bring the intensity whenever their characters are together.

So, with Julie dead and knowing that Ray is onto him, Dex is has gone full-blown off the reservation now, and Fisk has him right where he wants him.  This is going to get bad!

Not surprised by the Maggie reveal at the end, but it was an admittedly clunky way to do it.  Still curious to see why she abandoned Matt and his father.

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On 21/10/2018 at 5:29 AM, anville said:

Gotta say, tho, the execution on this season is just excellent.  After slogging slowly through the other recent Marvel Netflix shows, I had forgetten how good these shows can be.  Eight episodes in, and I don't feel like there's been a filler episode yet. 

The cast is great, especially Fisk and Sister Maggie, the plotting is tight, and I feel like there're real stakes. Not perfect, but head and shoulders above the Marvel TV stuff.

Agreed - I'm loving the show in a way I didn't last year - part of it's the lack of Elektra, but it's also been really tight. No slack, all the characters are being used really well, and some of the set pieces have been magnificent.

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On 20/10/2018 at 2:29 PM, anville said:

The cast is great, especially Fisk and Sister Maggie, the plotting is tight, and I feel like there're real stakes. Not perfect, but head and shoulders above the Marvel TV stuff.

 

The acting really is great all around. Looking back at the most recent seasons of Iron Fist and Luke Cage, other than Alfre Woodard there really doesn't seem like anyone in the main cast on those shows as good as Charlie Cox, Deborah Ann Woll or Vincent D'onofrio. And it makes a huge difference.

On 20/10/2018 at 11:46 PM, Pogojoco said:

The scene between Karen and Fisk was pretty great, very intense. I like her pissed off.  

That scene was great. And I have said this before but I love how the shoot the scenes with Fisk to make him look huge. Google tells me Woll is 5'-10" so not a short woman, but she looked completely tiny standing in front of Fisk.

I also liked Matt using tge BBQ lid as a shield against Poindexter's projectile weapons. Matt is supposed to be a smart guy so it was a good way to use his brains and powers to neutralize Dex's attack.

Oh yea, I also loved that Karen had a hand writen sign on the back of her door that just said "keys". Who ever put that on there deserves an Emmy.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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Ah man, I knew Julie was a goner as soon as she agreed to help Dex. Someone to keep him stable is not what Fisk wants. That was horrifically casual.

Of course, Dex now feels even more abandoned, and even more without an anchor... and even more in Fisk's hands. At least Ray and Matt now know just how fucked up he is, from listening to some of the therapy tapes.

Matt's going to need to come up with something new, to beat him. He's really struggling with the accuracy of Dex's projectiles, and I like that the show is focusing on that. It's interesting how Matt-light the last couple of episodes have been. More focus on Ray, and on Foggy and Karen, with a lot of Dex in this episode, at least. I guess it makes sense, with the way Matt is living a shadow existence.

Did not care for the reveal that Maggie is Matt's mother. I don't care if it's faithful to the comic book story, it's corny and doesn't really make sense.

I smiled at the "keys" reminder sign, on Karen's apartment door. Such a great, fun bit of set design. I really like her and Foggy's friendship. It feels very genuine, with the way they don't really pull punches with one another, that they call each other out on bullshit.

The balls on Karen Page, to go and see Fisk! I'm not sure if she's rediscovered her passion for justice, or is on a self-destruction kick. That was such a great scene. The tension was incredible, and both Deborah Ann Woll and Vincent D'Onofrio were so good. Karen pushing his buttons, needling at him, and Fisk holding on to his rage with his fingertips. Then Fisk flipping the tables by revealing he knows who Daredevil is. And then Karen goes in for the kill with Wesley. Damn. She just became Fisk's number one target. 

And Fisk just got a devoted, deadly assassin to do his bidding.

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3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Did not care for the reveal that Maggie is Matt's mother. I don't care if it's faithful to the comic book story, it's corny and doesn't really make sense.

 

I was very disappointed in this but I guess there was no other way to reveal she is his mother.  I was hoping for some redeemable reason. It's a pretty shitty thing to be in his life and not be in his life at the same time knowing how much he struggled without her. That is Daredevil, how redeemable is someone if at all?

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4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Matt's going to need to come up with something new, to beat him. He's really struggling with the accuracy of Dex's projectiles, and I like that the show is focusing on that.

I thougt the bbq shield was a pretty good way to neutralize Dex's powers. Matt's powers have been described as a radar sense so dodging or blocking relatively slow moving pieces of glass shouldn't be that hard for him.

53 minutes ago, CertainJewel said:

I was very disappointed in this but I guess there was no other way to reveal she is his mother.  I was hoping for some redeemable reason. It's a pretty shitty thing to be in his life and not be in his life at the same time knowing how much he struggled without her. That is Daredevil, how redeemable is someone if at all?

What is the show timeline for Matt's mom, did shw leave before or after his accident?

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1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

What is the show timeline for Matt's mom, did shw leave before or after his accident?

I think she left before. We only saw him with his dad, in the flashbacks. And then, after his dad died, we saw him in the care of the nuns, before Stick came to help him. But yeah, I can't see a legitimate, forgivable reason for a woman to leave her young son, without ever telling him she was alive, or that she cared. Especially when she's still living in the same city as him,.

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On 10/26/2018 at 5:39 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

What is the show timeline for Matt's mom, did shw leave before or after his accident?

Before, she left when Matt was a baby. Matt then came to stay at the church after his father died. She was there during the whole Stick thing and I would assume a bit afterwards.  Matt was there clearly after he met Stick, as there was a flashback discussing him winning fights against the other boys. It is unclear rather Matt ever went to a fostercare family or finished growing up in the church.

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Am I imagining this, or did Karen unwillingly confirm to Fisk that Matt is Daredevil? He even says "thank you" to her.

Since Fisk knowing Daredevil's identity is such a big deal in the comics, I'm surprised at how casually the theme is being treated this season.

I'm loving it though.

Edited by maddie965
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25 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

Am I imagining this, or did Karen unwillingly confirm to Fisk that Matt is Daredevil? He even says "thank you" to her.

Since Fisk knowing Daredevil's identity is such a big deal in the comics, I'm surprised at how casually the theme is being treated this season.

I'm loving it though.

Fisk already knew. He figured it out when he saw Matt fight in the prison. 

I think this was a nod to the comics. In the comics, from what I understand, Karen sells that information in exchange for drugs. That info is then passed on to Fisk. 

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That's what I was thinking about. But in my mind Fisk was not sure, and Karen was the one that confirmed it to him, therefore repeating what she did in the comics. But she doesn't even mention it to Foggy.

Anyway the whole "Matt Murdock is Daredevil" seems a litle clumsy to me in the series. Does Matt know that Fisk knows? Guess I 'd better shut up and go binge-watching..

Edited by maddie965
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Speaking as someone who would love it if my mother showed up alive: I am getting sick of these reveals, a long-lost or thought-dead parent, turns out to be someone in their life all along (to a certain extent), or who shows up out of nowhere, just because. I actually didn't see that one coming, I was spoiled on it by an article. 

Vincent D'onofrio can be terrifying. He was a good choice for Fisk. Karen was impulsive, and possibly suicidal, but also brave - getting in his face like that, and rubbing in that she killed Wesley. 

I'm disappointed that Dex isn't smarter than that. He knew that Fisk arranged to have Julie get a job at that hotel. He should have seen the rest of it coming. And where is Julie?

On 10/20/2018 at 2:29 PM, anville said:

Super-hero comics, at their heart, have always been soap operas, with cliff-hanger relationship reveals.  Par for the course.

Gotta say, tho, the execution on this season is just excellent.  After slogging slowly through the other recent Marvel Netflix shows, I had forgetten how good these shows can be.  Eight episodes in, and I don't feel like there's been a filler episode yet. 

The cast is great, especially Fisk and Sister Maggie, the plotting is tight, and I feel like there're real stakes. Not perfect, but head and shoulders above the Marvel TV stuff.

I'm disappointed that I didn't wait until I could really focus on it, to watch. I've been distracted, and every episode has been good. I need to stop visiting this board as I start the next episode, instead of pausing and getting back into it. 

Oh, Julie is dead? Damn. 

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Jesus Christ, Karen... don't you know, you don't poke the bear?

I get what she was trying to do, but in some ways I feel like she just made everything so much worse by what she just did. Has she forgotten what Wesley told her? Fisk won't simply kill Karen for what she just admitted -- he'll kill everyone else first.

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14 minutes ago, sinkwriter said:

Jesus Christ, Karen... don't you know, you don't poke the bear?

I get what she was trying to do, but in some ways I feel like she just made everything so much worse by what she just did. Has she forgotten what Wesley told her? Fisk won't simply kill Karen for what she just admitted -- he'll kill everyone else first.

Yeah. So many liked Karen (but seemed to like her more in The Punisher, where she also appeared!), but she drove me absolutely crazy.

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