S14.E02: Gods and Monsters

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

Also, I don't agree with Castiel that it was "kind" of Jack not to tell her parents that she was dead. I think it was cowardly. He didn't have to tell them what really happened, he could have made something up, but now they will never know or understand why they will never hear from her again, and it seems very cruel to think of them waiting for news about Kelly and the grandson that they were so happy about.

Why weren't Kelly's parents a little more frantic?  From Jack's wording he was using past tense.  They came across as having a good relationship with Kelly, so why aren't they wondering why Kelly didn't and wasnt' bringing the baby home to meet them.  If she was using the excuse of working over seas, why wouldn't she call.  It doesn't make sense to go to some remote backwoods area with no ways to contact people with a new born.

[Katy M]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Why weren't Kelly's parents a little more frantic?  From Jack's wording he was using past tense.  They came across as having a good relationship with Kelly, so why aren't they wondering why Kelly didn't and wasnt' bringing the baby home to meet them.  If she was using the excuse of working over seas, why wouldn't she call.  It doesn't make sense to go to some remote backwoods area with no ways to contact people with a new born.

Didn't they say something about Kelly having contacted them and going on some super secret assignment.  I know, I know, with a  baby?  

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They have a garage full of cars.

Jack can't drive, can he?  But in any event, apparently all the cars in the garage can get you wherever you want to go immediately.  And I thought it was just Baby that was special. :(

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Jack can't drive, can he?  But in any event, apparently all the cars in the garage can get you wherever you want to go immediately.  And I thought it was just Baby that was special. :(

If Kelly ever drove while she was pregnant, he probably can. He seemed to have learned everything else by osmosis (for lack of a better word).  Maybe Nick hopped a plane.  Or, somehow, mysteriously, he's still got Lucifer's wings.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

The Michael storyline could have been interesting but it ended up being a bust because its clear not a single writer actually gave a crap about it.

I am now beyond convinced that someone(s) BTS are concerned about him up-staging others on this show. 

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

But now Jensen's acting-

Where do I ever start.  I'll start at holy hell he was good.  Michael was so cold and calculating.   Not a trace or ounce of sympathy in him.  So different from Dean that sense.  Michael's eyes are completely dead.  He was damn meancing. 

Its to bad they didnt' give him time to find the character before cutting it off again at the knees.  Seriously screw Dabb.

That mirror scene.  Despite being so short, once again Jensen does need tricks or effects.  I could tell instantly.  Also when he walked into the church I knew immediately that was Dean.

Seriously, screw Dabb.

Michael!Dean emanated Power-something that has been sorely missing in the angels since Cas was first introduced and his brethren were of the Uriel mold/type.

And I LOVED! his dark sense of humor in this one.

Foolish, foolish writers for not even giving JA one episode to really shine in the role. And IA that the DemonDean arc was more successful by a long shot in that regard.

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought he was going more for sauve and debonair, plus menacing.  I thought it was there.  Michael showed signs that he could be scary if he wanted too. 

It also hard to develop a character when you get no help from the writing staff. and barely get to play him. 

This is why I feel like Jensen was so great.  He not only spins straw into gold, but he makes the straw too.

He should get story credit.

Indeed-to all of this, but especially to the bolded part.

[Binns]

Wait....was this the first episode with no Baby? Last week was the first one with no Dean...

[BoxManLocke]

4 minutes ago, Binns said:

Wait....was this the first episode with no Baby? Last week was the first one with no Dean...

Season 7 had plenty of those

[Binns]

6 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Season 7 had plenty of those

Oh, Lord, I think I blocked those episodes from my brain. Except didn’t the doppelgängers drive a Baby? Haven’t done a rewatch of that season in a while. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

There actually was a little seed of a good storyline with Michael!Dean that started to emerge here, but instead of tending it and feeding it and letting it flourish and grow (it should have dominated the episode), the writers were busy dumping their fertilizer on the Nick story and the Jack story.

Yup. This is exactly what happened in this one IMO, too.

And I expect the show will lose more viewers after this one because of it.

[sarthaz]

After Michael's speech about needing bait for a trap, I don't believe for a second that he's left Dean. Only the world's worst writers would ... oh, shit.

Liked that Michael pointed out that angels and demons suck ass in this Universe.

Hated that we're still being told Kelly was a saint when it's total bullshit.

Supermonsters were more interesting when Eve was creating Jefferson Starships. Michael's supercharged werewolves couldn't even beat up an old man and an old lady. Yeah, yeah, they're the greatest hunters the world has ever seen. Whatever.

I know objectively that this episode wasn't any good, and yet it was infinitely better than the premier. Dabb really does suck.

I can find myself interested in Nick's story if they don't ruin it. I give zero fucks about Jack.

If Michael ends up wearing Nick to the prom, I'm going to damage my eyes rolling them so hard.

Edited October 19, 2018 by sarthaz

[catrox14]

Weird. I tuned in for a show called Supernatural about Dean and Sam Winchester and their friend Castiel, and instead I'm watching some shitty thing called Lucinatural, which fucking sucks. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

In regard to Jack's visit to Kelly's parents, I have to say that it makes me very angry that the writers are STILL trying to shove down our throats the narrative that Kelly's story was essentially nothing more than an illustration of a perfect and pure mother who loved her precious baby Jack so much. Aww, look how happy her parents were to learn about Jack's birth! What a blessing he was!

The fact is that Kelly was raped by Lucifer when he possessed the body of her lover, and then even though she chose to die rather than be used by him to bear his offspring, she was then brainwashed by the supernatural creature inside of her into happily serving as his incubator. (Which killed her, by the way, although among all his angst and self-pity Jack never seems bothered by this.) It infuriates me that she was NEVER ONCE allowed to express her rage at Lucifer for what he did to her, but instead the writers had her simper to Jack about how it was natural that he would want to get to know his father. She was literally never allowed to say one bad word about him. It is horrible, and I think Dabb and his writers should be ashamed of themselves. At the very least they could stop bringing her up and using what happened to her as some kind of simple and heartwarming story.

Also, I don't agree with Castiel that it was "kind" of Jack not to tell her parents that she was dead. I think it was cowardly. He didn't have to tell them what really happened, he could have made something up, but now they will never know or understand why they will never hear from her again, and it seems very cruel to think of them waiting for news about Kelly and the grandson that they were so happy about.

I thought that the parents stole that entire scene-especially the mother. I felt so bad for them-but not for the Nougat Baby. Nope. I still got nothing for him. And IA that he should have told them that she died and that it was cruel not to.

[catrox14]

I don't think Michael is gone. I think he's making Dean think he's gone. Lucifer/Nick is going to parallel Dean/Michael....I HOPE. I thought Misha did a good job being the exposition fairy for the most absurd exposition.

Jack can fuck right off saying Dean doesn't matter.  And Jack knows fuck all about what Dean would want. 

Lucifer raped Kelly and she chose to have the spawn of Satan. Also,  Jack knew everything about Kelly....he said he knew her and WAS HER.  So.....I mean ...okay....

Jensen was brilliant in this episode. The shift he makes from Michael to Dean in the 2.1 second mirror scene was A+. 

And for all the absurd suptid things in this episode....the fact that Sam is wearing beard as a suited FEEB agent...is ....laughable. I mean come on. At least try, writers.

This is pretty much me throughout this episode...

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen was brilliant in this episode. The shift he makes from Michael to Dean in the 2.1 second mirror scene was A+. 

He hurt Michael for a split second. That was awesome.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Welp. Not even two full episodes for Michael!Dean. Even I didn't think Dabb could suck that hard.

Jensen was great, but I think I'm done.

The soap opera of Nickifer and woobie Jack is too much. This is not Supernatural.

Yeah. I'm done.

I really hope that you will change your mind, GONZOSGIRRL.

[ZennyKenny]

"I don't like Micheal. Dean needs to come back."- my wife, one of the biggest Jensen Ackles fans on the planet.

And I don't think she had a problem with Jenson's acting; I think she was just bored with Michael. Which seems to be a general consensus? A lot of people here are saying that the episode sucked but at least it was better than the premiere, which I think says a lot about the state of the show rn.

I think this season's story is just a slow burn. I mean that's what I hope. For example, I'd LIKE to think that Jack visiting his grandparents is leading to a story arc for him and not just some time-wasting scenes to fill the episode.

 

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer raped Kelly and she chose to have the spawn of Satan.

I hate that this is a thing that happened on the show, and it can never unhappen. You know what I mean? Like no matter where they take Jack's storyline, no matter how they try to glorify Kelly... that's where it always will have started.

Edited October 19, 2018 by ZennyKenny

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I hate that this is a thing that happened on the show, and it can never unhappen. You know what I mean? Like no matter where they take Jack's storyline, no matter how they try to glorify Kelly... that's where it always will have started.

And Dabb et al, will NEVER acknowledge this disgusting thing for being terrible and disgusting.

[Mick Lady]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

This definitely feels like "setup" versus any remote resolution.

I'm also wondering (like @Katy M) if Nick killed his own family.  

Since Michael drew Sam & company to him, I'm guessing he wanted to test his 'wolfgels' (anweres?) on the best hunters.  And they failed (but just barely).  So I don't know WHAT Michael is up to now.  But I don't think Dean is in the clear.  

Need a rewatch but Cas, sweetie, I realize both are technically adults but it's not babysitting if your charges take off from the bunker and you don't know where they are.

Hi Sue!

I agree about Nick killing his family. I believe that's why he was able to be a vessel for Luci.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Mick Lady

[BabySpinach]

Is there any other character on this show that has been as spoiled and coddled as Jack? Every time he whines and complains and vanishes into his own navel, Mary/Bobby/Cas/Dean/Sam trip over themselves to comfort and reassure him, yet he still moans about how he has "nothing." Bitch, you're practically smothered in emotional support and compassion. Dean is the one who grew up with nothing, yet he thinks only of others and never indulges in self pity.

"Dean doesn't matter." One of the most infuriating lines ever uttered on the show, especially when it comes from a flat, self-absorbed woobie Sue who can't ever hope to have even a tenth of Dean's charisma, likability, complexity, and strength. That's what happens when you write a one-note cinnamon roll. He may be a likable watch on an episode-by-episode basis, but since I have no emotional connection to him I have no desire to defend or analyze him when he acts like a self-pitying, ungrateful little shit.

Imagine if Dean had said the same of Lucifer!Cas in season 11. "Cas doesn't matter. We have to stop Lucifer no matter what!" Fandom would have dissolved into conniptions, yet they're surprisingly okay with Jack advocating Dean's "necessary" death. Right, because cold, utilitarian logic is a really likable and sympathetic trait we always look for in our favorite characters. And it's not like the show has REPEATEDLY invalidated the whole "greater good/necessary collateral" mindset about ten times by now. 

Michael!Dean was way more lively and cheeky this time around. It's honestly jarring, comparing him in this episode to the previous one. Jensen is enjoyable either way, but there is a reason that he asked Dabb for some goddamn guidance. Fucking hell, get Jensen into a project that actually respects his investment in the roles he plays.

Michael "leaving" Dean could have gone so much worse. At least it wasn't some contrived shit that somehow allowed Sam and co. to trap and expel Michael themselves. For the first time since season 11, there's actually some intrigue and mystery as regards to the mytharc. It's not just about how Sam and Dean are going to beat the Big Bad or rescue their loved ones; we actually don't have all the information, and the fact that Michael clearly established his ownership of Dean is a huge indicator that there's something bigger going on. Some people on this forum even predicted that there might be a Trojan Horse situation going on to justify "Dean" returning to regular hunts so soon. 

My #1 wish is for Dean to continue to be part of the mytharc. He's a main character, so this shouldn't even be in question, but unfortunately it is. I'm admittedly excited for What's Wrong With Dean. I want him to be the object rather than the subject. Have the other characters circle around him like they've done with Sam (in his many iterations of What's Wrong With Sam) so many times. I don't particularly want another emo Dean while other characters serve as the actual active agents of the story. 

No, there's no need to tell me that the season will likely NOT go down this way. I've still got my pessimism goggles firmly secured, but I am curious and willing to see how these unanswered questions play out. I could tear this show apart for days, but the fact that it still holds my interest (mostly because of Dean and Jensen) counts for something, at least.

[Maren]

"Dean doesn't matter."

Jack's mantra or the writer's mantra, there is no difference.

I feel so bad for Jensen. A new character he was excited to play, down the drain again. Less time than Demon!Dean AND it ended off screen?? Dayum. He did a brilliant job with what he had tonight, that scene was gold. Just wish he was given more than a shallowly written character and no direction or screentime to develop it, sigh.

2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Lucifer raped Kelly and she chose to have the spawn of Satan

Says it all. Blech. And the spawn of evil is a whiny, annoying waste of screentime IMO, never more evident than tonight. 

[Edo3]

Doesn't anyone suspect Michael will go into the "Werewolf Master"?

It seems to me that the experiments Michael was performing were not to create vamp or were angels, but to see if they were compatible with him.

Additionally the actor portraying the Master is quite charismatic, I have seen him before and wanted to search IMDB for what he was in...yet he was not even credited, which certainly leads me to suspect he will probably be the next Michael.

BTW does anyone know the Weremaster's name or previous roles?

Edited October 19, 2018 by Edo3
punctuation

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

2.  By setting up that Cas can still feel Lucifer in Nick, that could be the explanation of why he might be able to feel Michael in Dean.  Maybe Michael can damp himself down enough that only a trace escapes, which can be overlooked. 

And this is surprisingly not entirely pulled out of thin air or canon-neglecting either, since this was also a thing in season 9 with Gadreel in Sam. Even after Gadreel was forcibly ejected from Sam, there was still some of his grace left in Sam, enough that Castiel was physically trying to remove it, but he couldn't get it out without hurting Sam. So it makes sense with Michael apparently just "leaving" that it might appear that even more grace would be left behind in Dean which, as you suggest, Castiel might be able to overlook if Michael is still there but "laying low.".

And who knows, even if Michael did actually leave, because he left voluntarily - rather than having been ejected somehow - that small amount of grace and the fact that he's an archangel might mean that he can jump back into Dean without needing another "yes." I know they showed Gadreel's other meatsuit saying "yes" when he came back after leaving voluntarily, but since Michael is an archangel - and was experimenting - maybe they could fudge a "loophole" for him.

So as some have said, I don't think Michael is over either, and if he does pop up again, there are a few possibilities as to how how might pop up again, so at least there is some mystery there.

[companionenvy]

I don't believe for a second that Michael is gone. I don't know what his plan is, but I think he's still in Dean, waiting for the right moment. I really, really hope someone suggests that possibility, as they should all - Dean included - be really skeptical.

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

And it's not like the show has REPEATEDLY invalidated the whole "greater good/necessary collateral" mindset about ten times by now.

Has it? The show's in a little bit of a bind here, because if Sam, Dean or Cas did let one of the others die for the greater good, it would look terrible for the character. But Dean actually did at least give Sam his blessing for throwing himself into the cage in Season 5, and while nothing similar has happened since, Sam had that speech a few seasons back acknowledging that their efforts to save each other have had often wreaked incredibly destructive effects on the world. Then Guck himself called out Sam for prioritizing saving Dean over the world in the MoC/BotD arc that led to releasing Amara. 

Jack was cold, and "Dean doesn't matter" was excessively blunt, but his premise is sound. He's especially not wrong in saying that Dean would agree, though that isn't saying much, as Dean is always willing to put practically everyone above himself. But it also makes sense that Jack would come to this conclusion given that Dean himself had told Jack that he would be willing to kill Jack if he turned out to be a threat - not to mention that Jack has also had to worry about being a threat and harming others despite his best intentions. There's also a meaningful moral difference, I think, between Dean initially wanting to kill Jack because of his being a potential danger based on powers/origin vs. Jack being willing to kill Dean if that's the only way to kill Michael. 

While I liked the idea, Jack visiting his grandparents was atrociously written, in that the grandparents didn't remotely act like normal human beings. Kelly was apparently a presidential staffer. She was not a covert ops CIA agent. It makes no sense that she would have to go undercover, let alone while pregnant. They should have been incredibly suspicious of Kelly's original story and reported her missing ages ago. Now, this "intern" that can't pass for much above college age shows up, apparently having seen Kelly sometime since she went on that super-secret mission, recently enough to know that her baby was born. Plus, he's acting super intense and creepy as he describes Kelly interacting with her fetus. Obviously, they couldn't have figured out what was going on, but their hinky-meter should have been off the charts, and they should have been angrily demanding to speak to Kelly, speaking about calling the authorities, etc, not sitting around having a nice nostalgia session. I don't blame Jack for not being able to tell them she was dead, though of course he should have done so, as that's a believable reaction, but I blame the writers for giving no thought to how real people would act if they didn't hear from their pregnant daughter for months after she called with a patently unbelievable story about undercover work. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Starting with what I liked best: I'm intrigued. I want to see where this goes. And that's good enough for me.

I think Jensen's portrayal of Michael was great. He was sardonic and fun - better than the completely flat effect. The small mirror moment with Dean was good. I liked seeing him interact and learn more about his plan. Some sort of cross-bred super army (ht Vampire Diaries) with his angel grace involved. 

While I am disappointed that Dean is back within not  even two full episodes there is no way I believe Michael is truly gone. Could be something along the lines of what we saw with Nick - Lucifer leaving something behind - or could be a full-on bait/trap. 

Speaking of Nick - nope. Don't care. Get him off the screen. He had soooo much screen time and it took away from the primary storyline.

I liked Jack's scenes a bit better with Cas - especially the one where they argue over saving Dean. That was well acted. Don't care about the grandparents - at all.

 

So overall there is promise and this was an improvement from last week but I don't like them doing all these side plots. Ugh.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I think she was just bored with Michael. Which seems to be a general consensus?

Since you phrased this as a question -- my answer is no. How could I be? Having Dean possessed by the archangel Michael is something new, the character has only been give a handful of scenes, and he is played by Jensen Ackles. Maybe ask me again after Michael has been brought back as many times as Lucifer has been brought back on the show over the years, and has been given as much screen time and writer attention and story focus as Lucifer has gotten.

[Mulva]

My thoughts:

1.  I felt as if I were watching the Nick Show last night.  Don't give a rat's ass about the Nick storyline, and why is he still alive?  You'd think that one of the bunker people would have capped him, then burned the corpse to make sure Lucifer was really gone. 

2.  Didn't care about Kelly Kline when she was alive, have no interest now that she's dead.  She had no personality, and she barely interacted with the main characters.

3.  Michael!Dean and his house o' horrors.  Now THAT'S what Demon!Dean should have been like, instead of acting pretty much like his usual self on an extended bender.

4.  Has no one seen The Manchurian Candidate?  See comment #1.  Oh who am I fooling?  Any other team of writers would create an interesting plot along those lines, but with these mooks, I'm not expecting Michael's leaving Dean to be anything other than what we saw on screen.

5.  I guess Sam used up all his season's allotment of screen time and lines last episode.

6.  I wish AU Bobby and Mary would just run off to Apocalypse World together and get off my screen permanently, and now that he's useless, take Nougat Boy with them.

7.  One more episode like this, and I'm out.

Quote

Also when he walked into the church I knew immediately that was Dean.

I knew it was Dean when he took off that stupid hat.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Mulva

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, Mulva said:

1.  I felt as if I were watching the Nick Show last night.  Don't give a rat's ass about the Nick storyline, and why is he still alive?  You'd think that one of the bunker people would have capped him, then burned the corpse to make sure Lucifer was really gone. 

If they're going to do that, then in order to not be hypocrites (I know, why start now), they would also have to kill SAm and Cas, and now Dean. 

27 minutes ago, Mulva said:

4.  Has no one seen The Manchurian Candidate?  See comment #1.

I remember Sam referencing it back in S4 or 5, but I can't remember which episode.

[Hana Chan]

Had to wait until this morning to watch and I was... underwhelmed, to say the least. There were so many moving parts in this ep that nothing got the kind of focus that it should have and I was pretty bored the entire time.

1) Michael/Dean - Still not a fan of this storyline and not really loving Jensen's portrayal. I just don't find Michael compelling in the way that any of the demon characters were (so when they possessed someone, it was at least entertaining). I think that Jensen is doing his best given what he has to work with, but the angels as a whole are so cool and dry that he comes across like a much less fun version of Alastair. It isn't helping that he dresses like an extra from Newsies (I was so happy when Dean took that ridiculous cap off) and his plan is... well, let's just say that it's one of the weaker ideas that any of the Big Bads ever tried to implement. Creating monsters that are harder (but not impossible) for hunters to kill? Big whoop.  And he went through a lot of trouble And while I was glad to see Dean attempting to regain control, I really wish that Dean was able to force Micheal out. Don't think that Michael is gone or that Dean is free, but I'm glad to have my favorite TV big brother back for now.

2) Jack - I appreciate him trying to find a link with his human family, but that was an entire segment that I could have happily done without. It just dragged the pacing of the episode to a grinding halt. And while he had a point that killing Michael should probably take precedence over saving Dean... too soon, man.

3) Nick - No thank you. At least we're seeing why Lucifer picked him for an interim vessel. Totally unnecessary to be hashing this out now.

4) Sam (w/Bobby and Mary) - Wish that Sam had a bit more to do this week and the tussle with the super-werewolves was not exactly thrilling but I was glad to see that Sam's focus was 1) finding Dean and 2) see #1. Mary was... there. 

So that was it. As I said, Michael is hardly gone and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop at some point. Will have to see where all this goes.

[catrox14]

If Lucifer possessed Nick because he thought he was suitable because Nick may have murdered his wife and child...what does that potentially say about why Lucifer wanted to possess Sam, or Vince Vicente, or President Jeff. I don't think  Nick killed his family. I also do not think Nick killed the neighbor. That was Lucifer. I think this is just a long con by Lucifer, and Michael is doing the same although Dean is alive and Michael is still in him.

Archangels have the power to create anything they want. Maybe the smartest thing Michael will do is lock himself so far away in Dean that they don't know it.

Why else would Michael talk about making monsters the hunters? It seems to me he would lurk in Dean, using Dean to hunt down other monsters and then when the moment is right, come out and turn those monsters to his side.

Shouldn't Cas or Sam maybe summon Billie or Jessica the Reaper, to at least find out if Lucifer is dead before believing anything Nick says?

Edited October 19, 2018 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

21 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I think she was just bored with Michael. Which seems to be a general consensus?

 

15 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Since you phrased this as a question -- my answer is no. How could I be? Having Dean possessed by the archangel Michael is something new, the character has only been give a handful of scenes, and he is played by Jensen Ackles.

Jensen said it took him a few episodes to find his feet with Dean. So IA with Bergamot's sentiment. I wasn't bored with what we got at all and I'd welcome more Michael!Dean in a heartbeat especially after Jensen's performance of him in this episode. Dean is so very beloved by so many, so missing him is understood and it's even a given for many at this stage of the game, but the actor who brought Dean to life and made him so beloved by this fandom deserves more from this opportunity, IMO.

No one is going to love Michael!Dean in the same manner that they would love Dean, but it was still so awesome to me to see JA bring it so well as the Big Bad-even in what seemed to be an at-first strange storyline, that didn't actually seem that strange or out of place in this episode.

Michael shouldn't actually lead the monster army himself, he wouldn't want to dirty his own hands in that way, IMO; but he should be back to claim "ownership" of what he feels is his by divine right when the time IS right, again IMO, and just going by this all too brief but now more in-depth glimpse we've been given of him via Jensen's all too short stint as him.

Jensen has already added more layers and nuance to both the character of Michael AND to this storyline than any other actor on this show ever could have in such a short time, IMO, so for that reason, more than any other, he deserves further opportunities to play this megalomaniac of an archangel in the future.

And again I'll say that for me he brought the kind of Power to the role that we really only saw when the angels were first introduced in S4. And that was So. Awesome. to see

And given all of these givens-all of them, especially including and considering what Jensen has done with Dean for them over the years, I would think that any decent showrunner and any decent set of writers would agree with that same sentiment wholeheartedly.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Myrelle

[SueB]

Quick responses:
@catrox14 possible long con by Luci, I'm thinking fractured psyche (i.e multiple personality disordre... and his agro side imprinted on Luci)

@ZennyKenny I think that in order to play out a longer game with Michael, they made him very opaque.  That translates into boring.  I also think that the 'lightening in a bottle' that is the Sam/Dean dynamic is missing.  You don't have to be a Sam/Dean 'only' fan (or any variant of that theme) to miss the dynamic.  If we had had Sam/Michael dynamic that would have also (IMO) made Michael much more interesting.  But Michael is so powerful.  He literally can't be in a room with Sam without likely just killing him with a casual shrug of his shoulders.  So we're missing that.  In sum, with Dean MIA and Michael being both opaque and only working with day players... that hamstrings character development.  Personally, I got a lot more on second rewatch (see a post after this one .. maybe in an hour).

@Bobcatkitten I'm intrigued as well.  Dabb always likes a long-game story.  He's rolling the dice IMO that fans will hang with him but I'm very intrigued.

@Mick Lady *waves enthusiastically* I MISSED YOU! 

Edited October 19, 2018 by SueB

[Supafanstan]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Weird. I tuned in for a show called Supernatural about Dean and Sam Winchester and their friend Castiel, and instead I'm watching some shitty thing called Lucinatural, which fucking sucks. 

OMChuck yes. What even is this? Didn't Lucifer or his minions kill his family to make Nick vulnerable? Even if I am remembering wrong and he didn't, that's worse. Why do we care about a meat-suits non-supernaturally killed family? Of all the non-Winchester related things they could have done, this is one I couldn't care less about. Every time they cut to him or nougat-baby I just kept thinking WHAT IS MICHAEL DOING? At least the Sam fest last week was about a Winchester. This was like a really bad episode of SVU. What a mess. 

[Writing Wrongs]

14 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

On a totally shallow note, I'm going to miss Dean/Michael because the man could dress. ?

I feel like that's the real reason they had this stupid plotline.

Jack's stuff was the only bit I found interesting. I may be done as well.

ETA: For some reason, I really dislike Mary. I wish she hadn't been added as a regular.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Writing Wrongs

[Katy M]

41 minutes ago, Supafanstan said:

Didn't Lucifer or his minions kill his family to make Nick vulnerable? Even if I am remembering wrong and he didn't, that's worse.

it was never said who killed his family.  For what it's worth, Lucifer himself wouldn't have had time as they were already dead when he rose.  Also, with Lucifer being as arrogant as he is, I don't know that he would have even made that arrangement ahead of time.  I think he probably assumed that he would swoop up and Sam would say yes.  He wasn't counting on God (not Chuck, I still refuse to acknowledge hat retcon), swooping Sam to safety and cleaning out the demon blood. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Katy M

[BabySpinach]

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Has it? The show's in a little bit of a bind here, because if Sam, Dean or Cas did let one of the others die for the greater good, it would look terrible for the character. But Dean actually did at least give Sam his blessing for throwing himself into the cage in Season 5, and while nothing similar has happened since, Sam had that speech a few seasons back acknowledging that their efforts to save each other have had often wreaked incredibly destructive effects on the world. Then Guck himself called out Sam for prioritizing saving Dean over the world in the MoC/BotD arc that led to releasing Amara. 

Jack was cold, and "Dean doesn't matter" was excessively blunt, but his premise is sound. He's especially not wrong in saying that Dean would agree, though that isn't saying much, as Dean is always willing to put practically everyone above himself. But it also makes sense that Jack would come to this conclusion given that Dean himself had told Jack that he would be willing to kill Jack if he turned out to be a threat - not to mention that Jack has also had to worry about being a threat and harming others despite his best intentions. There's also a meaningful moral difference, I think, between Dean initially wanting to kill Jack because of his being a potential danger based on powers/origin vs. Jack being willing to kill Dean if that's the only way to kill Michael. 

I don't think Sam saving Dean from the MoC counts, because Dean wasn't in immediate danger of dying. Also, there's a difference between doing something and causing the world to break, and doing something morally cold in order to "save" the world. Those are two different concepts, and every big picture plan that any of the characters have ever undertaken (demon blood, the Trials, "saving" the angels via Metatron, killing Amara with thousands of souls, Sam joining BMoL) for the greater good has either failed or been framed as wrong. 

Dean never made a move on Jack. He only promised that if Jack turned bad, he'd then go after him. If Jack is the pure cinnamon roll he's supposed to be, that information should have been a comfort to him, knowing that he'd be stopped from hurting innocents. The BIG difference between this and the Michael situation is that Dean was possessed, and there was a possibility of extracting him (TFW have accomplished way more outlandish things than that). Hell, they tried exactly that with Cas in season 11 episode 18, and it wasn't framed as a weak or futile thing to do. Yet Jack bulldozed straight to MURDER DEAN FOR GREATER GOOD without a trace of regret or inner conflict. No mention, again, of how it's his fault that Lucifer juiced up and necessitated Dean's possession in the first place.

Of course Jack's logic is sound. But the way he conveys it makes him look like a complete dick, and since I have no emotional attachment to him I have no interest in trying to justify what he said. I don't care to understand or sympathize with him. He's been around for a year, yet gets to say shit like "Dean doesn't matter" and have most of the fandom accept and even defend it. But I'm definitely coming at this from more of a character likability standpoint rather than a character reasonability one. Jack wins the latter, but at the cost of whatever's left of my endearment toward him. 

[Diane]

@Mick Lady Your back!!!!!!

[SueB]

Second watch look: Wow, some really great character stuff here. Look to the TL;DR summary below: 

First, a note on the plot/pacing.  Dabb plays a long game.  I think he's got a BIG gamble going here that people will be intrigued enough by what's going on to stay while he builds his story.  The two BIG questions that came out: what the hell happened to Michael (I don't think anyone thinks he's gone ... or they haven't been watching this show for long), and why are we seeing Nick's backstory?  The answers I think are - figuring what Michael is up to is the long-story, and somehow Nick's backstory influences the main characters or story.  'Tune in next week' - because these are the mysteries to unfold IMO.

I'm going to spend the rest of this post on character.  As usual, I watch mostly for the plot the first time around and have to go back to savor the character moments.  THEN I can watch again and appreciate the episode. I understand most are not remotely interested in investing that kind of time.  That's just how I roll and part of what I LIKE about Supernatural is that for me the investment is worth is. 

Michael - What. An. Asshole.  Seriously.  Arrogant, cold, calculating, sexist, patient and has his own version of daddy issues.  I think "arrogant, cold & calculating" were pretty self-evident.  The sexist bit was when he's drinking cognac with the pack leader and he doesn't give Melanie a glass. Asshole.  If the pack leader didn't pick up on his disdain for Melanie (because she was no longer useful to him ... she served her purpose), then he deserved having his pack mutated and killed by hunters as a second 'field test'.  He also used a female vampire to act as bait.  Maybe Michael just reflects the sexism of our society and thinks females make better bait, but I think he's sexist.  I just had that vibe.  I also think he's got his own daddy issues.  He acknowledges Chuck is God but since he's on 'permenent vacation', Michael intends to be in charge.  It's his right in his mind.  He's the first son after all (see arrogant/sexist asshole comment above). But part of the cold/calculating aspect of Michael's personality, IMO, is that he's using God's creatures and trying to craft his own 'creation'.  He, like Lucifer, simply can't 'create'.  He has power, but only Chuck created.  I think that pissed of BOTH Lucifer and Michael.  It's part of why Lucifer was so attached to his creation of Jack.  Michael, OTOH, is creating via 'hybrids'.  He's looking to make the perfect minions.  Angels are out - too few, too flawed.  Demons aren't even part of the question. He hates humans because they are God's creation and he finds them imperfect (as God MADE them that way).  So Michael wants to one-up God by creating the perfect minion/worshipers.  And he's got a long-ass timeline to do it (centuries if need be).  So .. the vamps failed, the 'weregels' were better but 3 hunters beat 4 of them -- not good odds.  I think he's back to the drawing board with this new data to figure out his next approach.  Which leaves 'patience' -- a nice companion to 'calculating'.  He's got both qualities and he's learned his lesson about simply using raw power from the Apocalypse World.  BTW, I LOVED Jensen's portrayal.  Yes, he eeked in a bit more dark humor but I thought the menace and casual power displays were exceptionally well done.  Michael is a freaking asshole and a nightmare. Jack is right about him needing to be stopped.

Jack - Nougat my nougat.  I'm always Team Jack because of his earnest kindness (which I think he got both from Kelly AND Cas).  But I found it interesting that his 'work harder' answer was to look at how long it took to get his powers back.  He was not in the gym or shooting range working on human fighting skills.  Now maybe his visit with his grandparents will help him focus on his Kelly traits.  He did a good job of listing those.  And that would be a huge plus.  Because his evil bio dad's traits -- which looking for his power kind of borders on -- these should be shunned.  Of COURSE he just shows up at the Kline's house without a plan.  And then when he realized that they were looking to him to find out about Kelly, dude is in way over his head.  I'm happy he didn't tell them because I don't think that he was prepared with a good story.  I think he needs to put his head together with Sam and figure out how to inform the Klines that their daughter died in service to her country (via a fake letter) and move on. The 'what happened to the baby' bit is more complicated.  But this sticky wicket needs resolution.  I also had zero problem with his morality regarding Dean.  I think he's seeing things clearly.  He may care about Dean but he spent more time in Apocalypse World than Sam, Dean, or Cas.  He's seen the human toll.  He's gone mano-a-mano (ish... cause, angel-thing) with Michael.  He knows Michael's powers.  Jack's expectation that it would be a "Michael must die" mission fits with his more simplistic view of the world.  His mother died and he loved her.  He may love Dean as well, but if his mother could die for a good cause, and he knows Dean would die for a good cause -- then why isn't making sure Michael dies the first priority? At least I think that's how Jack sees it.  He said all the right caveats; 'if you can't save Dean', but Jack's singular focus is going to a source of contention I suspect. I also think he's a stand-in for all the hunters (who are no longer in the bunker ... apparently).  BTW, I'm also guessing that Jack's powers will return in 'months' rather than 'centuries'.

Cas - At first I was pretty pissed at Cas for not chasing after either Nick or Jack.  But I've rationalized (yes, it's a rationalization) that he wasn't sure what was going on.  Kindof a passive move but not un-Cas-like.  I thought Misha did an EXCELLENT job of showing Cas' fear when Nick had that finger snap moment.  THAT was an electrifying moment.  Cas quickly goes into competent, investigatory mode.  Of couse he see's Nick's fractured psyche but thinks that is Lucifer's doing (I think he's wrong).  I'm not sure WHY he didn't warn Nick (or frankly put him in a straight-jacket) but I suspect "kindness" (too much heart as Alphie would say) is at the bottom of it.  I'm also worried that with Dean back, he'll ignore the time-bomb that Nick is.  I can see the rationalization - Nick is just a human, he can't do much harm.  But it's missing the point of TFW - EVERY human should be saved.  Nick's future victims (hey there, is that you Artie?!) deserve to be protected.  On a more positive note, I liked that he's passing on the lesson of self-reliance to Jack.  Good lesson.  Well delivered.  Finally, there was his references back to Jimmy Novak.  Again, he's got the right sentiment this time -- each life matters and he screwed up Jimmy's -- and Claire's and the mother but he's skipping over the fact that Jimmy is gone and he's now running around in a custom Cas-suit.  Make me wonder if Chuck rebuilt him in the image of Jimmy just to remind Cas of the cost of taking a vessel.  Plus, if Jimmy is his greatest regret, I think he needs to rethink that.  I think Godstiel was his biggest f*ck-up.  He killed so many angels.  And now Heaven is failing.  Not sure where this is going but I'd love to see that debate with Naomi.  

Nick - Holy Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) Batman! Seriously.  That's what I think we got going on here.  I think Nick's baseline personality is the nice guy who is horrified that he said yes to Michael.  I think his agro personality is the one that murdered his own wife and child.  I think Artie saw Nick afterwords and kept silent.  Now WHY keep silent?  IDK.  Maybe Artie had a thing for nice Nick?  Maybe Artie is just too kind and thought it was a one-off abberation?  I don't know.  But he's dead for that silence.  And now nice Nick, I think, knows he's also agro Nick.  The key for me calling this MPD is that he doesn't remember the finger snap.  Yes, it COULD be Lucifer -- but there's zero advantage for Lucifer to reveal himself like that.  Instead I think we've got an agro Nick who imprinted on Lucifer's sadism and will be taking more control.  Ultimately, I think Cas may have to put down Nick because he's off on a murder spree.  I loathe Mark P on social media so seeing him on my screen is irritating.  But I have to say, he kicked ass both 'tortured Nick' and 'agro Nick'.  I think he's off on his murder spree and we won't see him again for a while.  How Nick's story relates to the main plot? I don't know yet. Certainly he's going to be the example that helps form a rationalization for why Cas and others ignore signs of Michael in Dean for a while.  They'll just think that's PTSD like Nick's. And while I can't imagine ANY higher being remotely interested in possessing Nick's f*cked-up brain -- his meatsuit has value.  I think Nick is essentially immortal due to Crowley's tinkering to infuse him with the spellwork of the cage, so Nick might still be an attractive option for Michael or someone else. But the "he's the new Michael" seems too simplistic for me right now.  I'll withhold judgement til I get more data. 

Dean - with one word, "Sammy", we KNOW Dean is back.  And it feels good.  Dean struggling to say "Get Out" (his only hope for ejecting the angel) was powerful.  Dean's frustration & freakout over Michael's departure without understanding why was also palpable.

Sam, Mary & Bobby - There wasn't much character development here.  Just comfortable characterization that meets expectations. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I think Dabb is playing a slow-burn mystery game here.  Berens wrote some great insights into Michael, whose story is clearly not over.  The insights into Jack & Cas were just character building IMO.  The insights into Nick also plays into the long game -- but exactly how is still a mystery IMO.  I understand the "he's the new Michael" theory but I'm not sure it's that simple. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

The sexist bit was when he's drinking cognac with the pack leader and he doesn't give Melanie a glass. Asshole.  If the pack leader didn't pick up on his disdain for Melanie (because she was no longer useful to him ... she served her purpose)

I don't know that I would call that sexist, so much as maybe elitist for lack of a better word.  If Melanie had been a male werewolf and Michael only wanted to deal with the leader, he probably still wouldn't have given him a drink.  Michael only wants who he can use.  And then when he's done with them, he's done.  which makes it kind of weird that Dean is still alive, unless, and this is probably the case, he still has plans for him.

 

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Plus, if Jimmy is his greatest regret, I think he needs to rethink that.  I think Godstiel was his biggest f*ck-up.  He killed so many angels.  And now Heaven is failing.  Not sure where this is going but I'd love to see that debate with Naomi.  

You kind of have a point. He killed dozens of angels and unleashed leviathans on the world with that move.  But, he personally met a family whose lives he had destroyed. It's kind of  like that Lenin or Stalin quote.  1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.  OK, that's not exactly right, but it conveys the point and I'm too lazy to look it up.  

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

@ZennyKenny I think that in order to play out a longer game with Michael, they made him very opaque.  That translates into boring.  I also think that the 'lightening in a bottle' that is the Sam/Dean dynamic is missing.  You don't have to be a Sam/Dean 'only' fan (or any variant of that theme) to miss the dynamic.  If we had had Sam/Michael dynamic that would have also (IMO) made Michael much more interesting.  But Michael is so powerful.  He literally can't be in a room with Sam without likely just killing him with a casual shrug of his shoulders.  So we're missing that.  In sum, with Dean MIA and Michael being both opaque and only working with day players... that hamstrings character development.  Personally, I got a lot more on second rewatch (see a post after this one .. maybe in an hour).

Oh yeah! That's a good point about the missing dynamic, I didn't think of that. I wonder if that's also why I barely noticed Sam in this episode?

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Since you phrased this as a question -- my answer is no. How could I be? Having Dean possessed by the archangel Michael is something new, the character has only been give a handful of scenes, and he is played by Jensen Ackles. Maybe ask me again after Michael has been brought back as many times as Lucifer has been brought back on the show over the years, and has been given as much screen time and writer attention and story focus as Lucifer has gotten.

Well that's good. I guess I just got that feeling from reading the first page of this topic. 

[ZennyKenny]

It's weird. On the one hand, I can see that there is a story developing concerning Michael, and it's telling a tale that will likely span several episodes. And the way it's told allows for lots of discussion and speculation and to whether he's still in Dean and how his plan is going to work out. And on paper it sounds very intriguing... but I still found the ending of the episode to be incredibly unsatisfying.

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's weird. On the one hand, I can see that there is a story developing concerning Michael, and it's telling a tale that will likely span several episodes. And the way it's told allows for lots of discussion and speculation and to whether he's still in Dean and how his plan is going to work out. And on paper it sounds very intriguing... but I still found the ending of the episode to be incredibly unsatisfying.

I'm guessing that a lot of people did, but for me there's still some mystery left to the Michael!Dean stuff and that's what I wanted out of Dean's return.

My beef has always been that if Dean was returned too soon in the usual manner of someone(most likely Sam) saving him in some ridiculously canon-ignorant manner then the intensity and mystery of the storyline would be gone which could have easily also translated to Dean's connection to Michael being gone also. This ending helps some of us retain the hope that there's still more story to be mined from Dean's connection to the Archangel and that was huge for me.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm guessing that a lot of people did, but for me there's still some mystery left to the Michael!Dean stuff and that's what I wanted out of Dean's return.

My beef has always been that if Dean was returned too soon in the usual manner of someone(most likely Sam) saving him in some ridiculously canon-ignorant manner then the intensity and mystery of the storyline would be gone which could have easily also translated to Dean's connection to Michael being gone also. This ending helps some of us retain the hope that there's still more story to be mined from Dean's connection to the Archangel and that was huge for me.

Minus the end scene with Dean, it felt like this should have been the premier.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Minus the end scene with Dean, it felt like this should have been the premier.

ITA.

[tennisgurl]

So, is Michael really gone, or is he just saying that? Is he hiding inside Dean? Or is he just faking it? Because, if thats really the end of Michael in Dean, that is super lame. I mean, all that buildup, all the work, and its just like "Well, he peaced out I guess" and moving on? I guess we will just have to wait and see, but I am already disappointed we didnt at least get a few more episodes of Dean fighting from the inside against Michael's evil plans. Jenson was killing it, and you could tell he was having a blast being dark and evil in his Peaky Blinders cosplay. 

While the idea that Nick is actually a murderer who blacked out killing his family or some such thing, and thats one of the reasons he got possessed is kind of interesting, its not interesting enough to make me want to see so much Nick. The dude is already un-possessed by the idiot who we had several seasons full of, so why is he still such a big part of the show? I just dont care about him and his angst about stuff that happened about a thousands seasons ago when so much else could be going on. 

I do like the idea of Michael powering up the monsters, but I dont think thats his end goal. I think he wants to find an already supernatural creature to possess, so he gets even more power, or because he thinks they might be better able to handle him. I liked the guy playing the head werewolf, and I liked the girl who played the nice vampire girl, sad that she died so quickly. Of course Michael apparently went after one of the few non evil vampire nests around. What a dick. 

Alt Bobby struggling with FBI lingo was funny. Although, I still am not super thrilled with the Alt characters running around. Its just confusing. 

The grandparents made me really feel for them, and realizing that Kelly named Jack after her dad definitely made me feel something, but that whole scene gave me an icky vibe. Kelly didnt even get to know her child, was raped and impregnated, willingly had the anti christ, he exploded out of her after she had her incubator job finished and now they have to deify her after death to make us forget what really happened to her. Its super fucked up, and I hate that they are glossing over it. I know that this show has its issues with mothers and woman dying in violent and gendered ways for the stories of men, but its all really crap, and I dont want to swell on it. 

That all being said, I thought this was mostly stronger than last week. Lots of good performances, and I liked Cas and his interactions with Nick and Jack, even if Jack and Nick both acted like dicks towards him. There was some good stuff here, and I think we might have something interesting here, but I hope we can focus more on the actual main characters in the future? Not Nick and his possible evil and dead family, or Jack and his angst? Maybe?

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's weird. On the one hand, I can see that there is a story developing concerning Michael, and it's telling a tale that will likely span several episodes. And the way it's told allows for lots of discussion and speculation and to whether he's still in Dean and how his plan is going to work out. And on paper it sounds very intriguing... but I still found the ending of the episode to be incredibly unsatisfying.

I'm probably giving Dabbleming way too much credit, but I cannot believe from a drama perspective that having the co-lead of the show be free of possession because his possessor just peaced to be compelling storytelling. I am foolishly choosing to believe that this is not the end of it. Next week probably will be....LOL

[Lemuria]

18 hours ago, sarthaz said:

After Michael's speech about needing bait for a trap, I don't believe for a second that he's left Dean. Only the world's worst writers would ... oh, shit.

Y-e-e-s-s, just figured it out, have you?  LOL  The flies in all of our ointments!

18 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Hated that we're still being told Kelly was a saint when it's total bullshit.

Or that she was such an amazing mother, with no acknowledgment that Fetus Jack was actually more interesting than Current Jack, as there was considerable evidence he really was half Lucifer:  he deceived and manipulated Cas (with the whole paradise thing.  And why hasn't Cas mentioned that?) and he controlled Kelly, making her bring him to term even though he knew it would kill her.  Then, when he's born, he's suddenly "Awww, what a cute little profiterol!"

[Lemuria]

15 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Is there any other character on this show that has been as spoiled and coddled as Jack? Every time he whines and complains and vanishes into his own navel, Mary/Bobby/Cas/Dean/Sam trip over themselves to comfort and reassure him, yet he still moans about how he has "nothing." Bitch, you're practically smothered in emotional support and compassion. Dean is the one who grew up with nothing, yet he thinks only of others and never indulges in self pity.

"Dean doesn't matter." One of the most infuriating lines ever uttered on the show, especially when it comes from a flat, self-absorbed woobie Sue who can't ever hope to have even a tenth of Dean's charisma, likability, complexity, and strength. That's what happens when you write a one-note cinnamon roll. He may be a likable watch on an episode-by-episode basis, but since I have no emotional connection to him I have no desire to defend or analyze him when he acts like a self-pitying, ungrateful little shit.

Imagine if Dean had said the same of Lucifer!Cas in season 11. "Cas doesn't matter. We have to stop Lucifer no matter what!" Fandom would have dissolved into conniptions, yet they're surprisingly okay with Jack advocating Dean's "necessary" death. Right, because cold, utilitarian logic is a really likable and sympathetic trait we always look for in our favorite characters. And it's not like the show has REPEATEDLY invalidated the whole "greater good/necessary collateral" mindset about ten times by now. 

+1000

There was no genuine concern for Dean or sadness or any kind of regret in any part of that speech by Jack.  He was all anger.  I think at the very end he may have recognized he'd crossed a line with Cas and then we get the "It's what Dean would have wanted." And, yes, he would have (but then again, he's not the kind of being who would have forced his mother to give birth to him if it would have killed her, is he, Jack?) but you don't really care about that, do you?  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Lemuria said:

+1000

There was no genuine concern for Dean or sadness or any kind of regret in any part of that speech by Jack.  He was all anger.  I think at the very end he may have recognized he'd crossed a line with Cas and then we get the "It's what Dean would have wanted." And, yes, he would have (but then again, he's not the kind of being who would have forced his mother to give birth to him if it would have killed her, is he, Jack?) but you don't really care about that, do you?  

To be fair to Jack (although I hate to be, I'm still mad that he isn't evil, at least yet), I don't know that he had any conscious control of bringing Kelly back. Everything he did before he was born was probably like a heartbeat, an involuntary muscle.  

[MysteryGuest]

After thinking about the episode a bit more, I agree that Michael isn't gone from Dean yet, at least not permanently.  There's been way too much hype about this part for Jensen to have just those few scenes.  Maybe they're just trying to please everyone by giving those of us who've been missing Dean at least a small opportunity to see him.  

I like Jack, and I have no real problem with his seeking out Kelly's family.  Unfortunately, just like Castiel, he has to be neutered in order to stick around.  He appears to be completely powerless now, but I still have no clue what powers, if any, Cas still has.  But they're part of Team Free Will 2.0, so I will deal with it.  I just hope we get to see more of that team in action soon.

Sorry, but I couldn't care less about Nick.  Maybe, had they gotten rid of Lucifer a few seasons ago, I'd feel differently, but they've shoved him down our throats for years now and I'm just done with the character(s).

I'm frustrated with the show so far this season, but I'm not going anywhere.  I just want it to start feeling like Supernatural again.  

[Lemuria]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

but if his mother could die for a good cause, and he knows Dean would die for a good cause -

We part company on this one, SueB.  I don't consider Kelly's--who was trying to kill her self and the Nougat in the Oven--being forced by Fetus Jack not to do that and to carry him to term, being essentially brainwashed and manipulated into wanting to give birth to Satan's Spawn even though it would kill her, to be a good cause.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Lemuria