S09.E07: Down Like the Titanic

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Debbie finds Fiona at a low point and helps her pick up the pieces as Fiona continues to face pressure from Max Whitford on her investment hubris. Tami stumbles back into Lip's life. Frank enjoys the honeymoon period of his relationship with Ingrid, but reality interferes soon enough. Kev and V disagree about the future of their family.

Promo:

 

Clip:

 

Original air date: 10/21/18

[Dee]

That was.....dry.

[chocolatine]

I know this show is predicated on the characters not achieving too much success, but it was still hard to watch Fiona crash and burn. The worst part is that success was within her reach if she'd just paced herself, let the building appreciate in value for a couple of years and saved up some money managing the diner before jumping into another real estate investment.

The Ford comeuppance didn't do anything for me, I don't know if it was the absurdity of the way it was done or the actor playing it so calmly.

I love Katey Sagal, but even she can't make me interested in Frank's antics anymore.

[preeya]

Much too much Frank. I like Katey Segal but that was not how.

It also looks as if Fiona is turning into a female Frank.

[kathe5133]

So, she just left the dog to wander the hallways of the apartment building?

[Citizen A]

Doesn't Fiona still have her stake in the commercial venture? And no loans other than the 20k+interest to the suit-y guy? Seems like she's doing well, or did I miss something?

I guess I’m only hate-watching at this point, anyway.

[xls]

3 hours ago, anville said:

Doesn't Fiona still have her stake in the commercial venture? And no loans other than the 20k+interest to the suit-y guy? Seems like she's doing well, or did I miss something?

I guess I’m only hate-watching at this point, anyway.

I  think this guy was setting her up to clean her out the whole time-smelled like a scam the whole time to me. 

[aemom]

3 hours ago, anville said:

Doesn't Fiona still have her stake in the commercial venture? And no loans other than the 20k+interest to the suit-y guy? Seems like she's doing well, or did I miss something?

Well she's in better shape than she would have been if he hadn't saved her ass, but she could have sold her building for a lot more than he gave her for it, so she's lost that. But I agree that she shouldn't be acting as messed up depressed as she is.

[xls]

35 minutes ago, AEMom said:

Well she's in better shape than she would have been if he hadn't saved her ass, but she could have sold her building for a lot more than he gave her for it, so she's lost that. But I agree that she shouldn't be acting as messed up depressed as she is.

Saved her ass or bilked? I call shenanigans on that whole rest-home deal. 

[LibertarianSlut]

I thought the episode was gold. Definitely the best in a long, long time. I was laughing all the way through. Carl for the win: The president who advanced the Domino Theory was Roe v Wade. It was such a throwback episode, with the kids all gathered around the message from Ian, and then the frenetic energy at the breakfast table the next morning. Lip didn't bother me for once. He wasn't sanctimonious. He wasn't rescuing anyone--finally! I like Deb in the role as the savior better than Lip anyway. I really liked the way the Fiona story resolved itself. She got mad lucky, yet she has nothing left. Kev's sentimentality turned me off, but Vee rescued that storyline in the ninth inning.

I also thought Frank was at his best here. It's always interesting when there is someone around to match his crazy. 

Well done, show.

[Chaos Theory]

Frank’s brand of crazy only works when there is someone crazier around.   He doesn’t work as a single.  He does work as a double.

Loved Debbie this episode.  

I also think Fiona got scammed by the other guy.  She ended up nearly where she started and she knows it.  

[DrSpaceman73]

I can't decide if Fiona was scammed by the other guy or just rushed into something she wasn't ready for once again. 

She really didn't make out too bad in the end.  The real estate guy does seem like a douche and a complete tool, and he did take advantage, but he could have made it much worse. 

Not only that but the fact she committed a hit and run while drunk and pretty much got away with it is lucky for her, considering her criminal history

The Ford thing was over the top in how they punished him. 

14 hours ago, anville said:

Doesn't Fiona still have her stake in the commercial venture? And no loans other than the 20k+interest to the suit-y guy? Seems like she's doing well, or did I miss something?

I guess I’m only hate-watching at this point, anyway.

I believe she does, yes. 

Lip and the crazy girl, she seems just like his late mother.

[aemom]

20 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I can't decide if Fiona was scammed by the other guy or just rushed into something she wasn't ready for once again. 

I don't think it was a scam because it wasn't just the two of them on the deal.  They were at Patsy's with the group of the other investors when they discussed the zoning problems.

20 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

She really didn't make out too bad in the end.  The real estate guy does seem like a douche and a complete tool, and he did take advantage, but he could have made it much worse. 

Not only that but the fact she committed a hit and run while drunk and pretty much got away with it is lucky for her, considering her criminal history

The Ford thing was over the top in how they punished him. 

I totally agree with all of this.

[preeya]

So this episode was the "midseason finale."  Next episode doesn't air until 01/20/2019.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I can't decide if Fiona was scammed by the other guy or just rushed into something she wasn't ready for once again. 

A bit of both. He saved her but just barely. And yes, she never should have mortgaged her building for this risky investment scheme. That was really dumb, and she was in over her head from the start. Fiona has convinced herself she's a big wheeler and dealer in the world of finance just like the character Sharon Lawrence played (whose name escapes me). She's nowhere near that level, she just doesn't have the education.

I'm not interested in another emotional spiral though. We've been through this before and if the show needs to keep repeating the same old storylines then it's time for them to end it.

I'm not keen on Kevin and Vee adopting a baby either. Whatever Kevin is feeling right now isn't going to be solved with another baby. I think he's just feeling nostalgic and they can't keep having kids every time he feels that way. Vee is right, they just don't have the money. 

Weird that they're splitting up the season like this. 

[Chaos Theory]

Fiona succeeding all the time was exceptionally boring.  I am sorry but this is not the show for a family scrappy down and out succeeding against all odds.  It just isn’t.   Its a story about a family that each member lets its own pathos get in their way time and time again but when the shit finally does hit the fan the rest of them are their to catch then so they don’t hit the ground too hard.  

[msrachelj]

so the first thing i came away with is that the p.o.s animal abusing gallaghers are at it again. fiona left a defenseless , already abandoned, little dog to fend for itself in a building that is being sold. fucking bitch. so fuck you fiona. you deserve what you now have. and we had to be reminded of the bunny in the micro. fuck. 

this show is getting really stupid and ridiculous or else it's been too long or i've been watching too long. what they did with fionas boyfriend was WTF.  

so much more but never mind. i wish this were the last year. but i have to watch till the it's done. invested too many years. 

[iMonrey]

Oh I forgot about the dog. Yes . . . that really angered me. WTF. Just leave him behind to fend for himself? Does she think one of the other tenants will just take him in? Then again I shudder to think how the dog would fare in the Gallagher household either. 

I don't know what to make of Fiona's self-destructive behavior. We've seen it at her lowest but it seems like she managed to salvage enough in this episode to prevent it. Yes she lost her building but she's not hundreds of thousands in debt and like that guy said, her credit will remain intact. Plus she still has an investment in this property that, hopefully, will eventually pay her some profit. She still manages the diner and she managed to escape arrest for drunk driving and a hit and run. Sure, celebrate a little but spiral out of control like your life is over? Talk about a drama queen.

Then there's Lip and his latest crazy girlfriend du jour, and I'm sorry but no way Carl could ever get into Westpoint. Liam maybe - he has the smarts and the grades but Carl just doesn't. And I don't know what the hell they're going to do with Debbie at this point. 

Everything feels stale and repetitive at this point. The show really needs to end this season.

[Mindthinkr]

5 hours ago, preeya said:

So this episode was the "midseason finale."  Next episode doesn't air until 01/20/2019.

I felt duped because I thought other than Ian we would have had more closure. 

I literally got a laugh that Debbie and two friends could capture Fiona’s ex and get him into that stockade. Amazing that he was still there when Deb found her sister and got her to the scene to exact her revenge. Weapon choices. That was something that Carl could get behind. Speaking of...even if he gets into West Point I doubt that he’ll be able to hack it and at some point go AWOL. 

[preeya]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

and I'm sorry but no way Carl could ever get into Westpoint

Carl's lines were classics:

Name the three branches of government.

Pentagon, DMV, cops.

Who was the first American president?

Easy. Lincoln.

Who coined the term "domino effect" to describe the spread of communism?

Oh, Rovey Wade?

[chocolatine]

On 10/21/2018 at 7:38 PM, anville said:

Doesn't Fiona still have her stake in the commercial venture? And no loans other than the 20k+interest to the suit-y guy? Seems like she's doing well, or did I miss something?

Depending how long the project takes to complete, the interest on the $25k can really eat into her profits. Especially if any other problems come up that require more money that she will again have to borrow with interest.

10 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I can't decide if Fiona was scammed by the other guy or just rushed into something she wasn't ready for once again. 

I don't think he scammed her, he just did his job. Buying properties at a low price is how he makes a living, and if he hadn't bought her building as-is, she would have defaulted on her mortgages *and* forfeited the $100k investment while waiting for a better offer.

And she definitely rushed into something she wasn't ready for. She was initially only going to invest $50k, but impulsively went up to $100k when the guy said that was the minimum buy-in. Taking out an additional $50k is what did her in.

[kathe5133]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

I don't know what to make of Fiona's self-destructive behavior. We've seen it at her lowest but it seems like she managed to salvage enough in this episode to prevent it. Yes she lost her building but she's not hundreds of thousands in debt and like that guy said, her credit will remain intact. Plus she still has an investment in this property that, hopefully, will eventually pay her some profit. She still manages the diner and she managed to escape arrest for drunk driving and a hit and run. Sure, celebrate a little but spiral out of control like your life is over? Talk about a drama queen.

 

That's her problem.  Good credit and a sound investment doesn't mean anything to her.  She was looking for wads of cash.  Selling the landromat at a profit and buying the building, with a built in hunk who would do her restoration work for sex, made it all seem so easy.  Taking her only 100k and risking it like she did was just stupid.  She's lucky that investor guy took the building off her hands.  She can still turn some profits on that deal.  It just won't be over night.  Hopefully, when she sobers up she'll see that.

And poor Carl.  His own room was so close!

[Dee]

Why would Debbie build Ford's stockade right next to Patsy's?

[whiporee]

I hope this means the end of real estate. Because they really, really screwed it up. 

1) It actually takes a long time to default on a loan. Especially a business one. Fiona had plenty of time to try to bring her mortgage into compliance, and to be honest, I'm not sure why that was a concern, even if she defaulted on the investment money. She couldn't have gotten the loan without showing the cash flow to justify it; it would suck to lose 100K (more on that coming up) but it should have had no impact whatsoever on her ability to pay her mortgages. If she's got 282 on a 10-year note at a crazy rate of 10 percent, her monthly nut is about 3700. She's got at least six units at at least $800 though I think she said she was asking 13). Even paying power she should be swimming.  

2) If Max was working as her broker, he had a fiduciary duty not to work against her interests. He became her broker the moment he said he's waive his fees. He didn't say he couldn't advise her, he said he'd waive his fees. He also said he had clients who would be looking for that kind of investment. YOU CAN'T DO WHAT HE ENDED UP DOING, which is use information given to you in a client/broker relationship to gain an advantage over a client. He had a legal responsibility to tell her to get other advice. That kind of thing sends one to jail, not just losing your license. 

3) No partnership agreement ever written gives the general partner the chance to demand immediate payment from an investor or face default, especially one where they are talking about a long process like rezoning.  As a GP, you are ALWAYS trying to get your investors to pay, and it takes a long time, not just a coffee shop conversation. There has to be a vote; Max can't just say he wants 25K and he wants it now. And even if we forget that, there's no way Fiona just loses her investment -- her partnership interest may have been devalued, but you can't just go to your partners and demand more money or we'll just take what you've already put in (trust me, my life would have been a lot easier if you could). And if Max was anything less than forthcoming about the prospects of rezoning and about the possibility -- and expectations -- of additional expense, she'd have an easy case of fraud against him. She'd have a case of fraud even if he did disclose -- enough of one where he'd just give her money back rather than face the legal consequences. 

This goes back to one of the real problems I end up having with the show -- they take situations beyond reality in order to continually screw the Gallaghers. There are plenty of others, but here's three off the top of my head: A) LIp's college would have bent over backwards to keep him from filing a lawsuit over the Helene situation.  There is NO circumstance where they would have thrown him out of school or taken away his RA job because he had an affair with a professor. Their exposure would have been huge, and they'd know it. B) Liam would have NEVER been thrown out of the private school, especially because the parents didn't like the fact that Frank slept with many of them while they were all sleeping with each other. The PR risk to the school would be far too great. C) if Ian was off his meds and that was considered by the court to be a legal justification for what he did, he'd be in a psychiatric hospital. If the court didn't see it that way, then there's no justification offering him the plea bargain he took.  If the court considered him mentally ill and that illness was the reason for his criminal act, they don't send you to prison. That's a violation of cruel and unusual punishment. 

I like the show a lot -- and I'll stick with it -- but I liked it better when the circumstances were both more extreme and more realistic, when it was enough to show a dysfunctional family surviving in tough situations without artificial ones thrown at them. The things that have conspired against Fiona the least two weeks are both unrealistic, and her spiral didn't really fit either. Fiona's been through a lot -- it seems very unrealistic she would have been this distraught over the little setback she had. That's why as much as I enjoy the show, I wish they'd have just ended it two years ago with everyone on an uptick. To keep the angst going they have to start treat artificially creating issues that just wouldn't really exist.  

Edited October 24, 2018 by whiporee

[DiabLOL]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Why would Debbie build Ford's stockade right next to Patsy's?

In five minutes, too.

[taanja]

17 hours ago, Dee said:

Why would Debbie build Ford's stockade right next to Patsy's?

Because it's a TV show and they only have so many sets?

That was funny either way. I don't nit pick that kind of stuff on TV shows -- or I couldn't watch anything!

I loved this ep! Loved Frank and his new crazy chick! I'm going to predict she kills him by the end of the season -- or seriously injures him. That will be fun to watch!

I love Fiona and her downward spiral. Haha! She is looking more and more like the female version of Frank. (A little like Monica too with that manic in the middle of the night welcome home party and the big ass side of beef in the plastic wrap she was trying to shove in the oven! ) I laughed out loud -- oh also the trying the booze in the store to see which one she can drink right out of the bottle! haha! When I saw that I was like-- OMG! other people do that too? < I'm not admitting anything!

Hey! The dog which she got from the old lady who died in her building didn't want to go with her. It ran away upstairs. It is now Max's (is that his name?) problem. I would have left the damn thing too. So I had NO problem with that.

Oh Karl! The look on the new girlie's (don't know her name) face when he answered some of those questions-- like whoa! He really is dumb! I predict the little wife -- Kassidy (sp?) -- will come back at a very inopportune time. There is no way that crazy chick is really gone.

I even liked Lip and that girl we have seen before. Don't know her name but their little tryst was kind of cute.

So the show is taking a break until January? What??? Me no likey!

[iMonrey]

Quote

No partnership agreement ever written gives the general partner the chance to demand immediate payment from an investor or face default, especially one where they are talking about a long process like rezoning.  As a GP, you are ALWAYS trying to get your investors to pay, and it takes a long time, not just a coffee shop conversation. There has to be a vote; Max can't just say he wants 25K and he wants it now. 

You know . . . I wondered about that. Thanks for your thoughtful post on these issues, it was enlightening!

[Chaos Theory]

It’s always so funny to me....it’s alwYs “the dog” that gets everyone so riled up.  Fiona was in a bad way and in no position to care for a puppy and the dog ran away. Was she suppose to chase him through a building that was no longer her with a broken arm and possible concussion.  But it is the dog that matters.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Was she suppose to chase him through a building that was no longer her with a broken arm and possible concussion. 

Yes, she can follow him up the stairs, rather than just abandon him to whoever. If she can no longer care for the dog, fine, she can take him to a no-kill shelter. Just leaving him behind to fend for himself was heartless. Hell, maybe Liam would have wanted him.

Edited October 24, 2018 by iMonrey

[Dee]

Fiona should be more concerned for a dog than Liam?

[Chaos Theory]

Is the dog even really hers?   Just didn’t hand it over when the apartment got cleaned out.  Then again keeping the dog was a mistake to begin with.  And even if I thought she should have at least brought it somewhere?  Bringing it home to research what shealters are no kill is asking waaaaaaay to much out of Fiona.  

Edited October 24, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Daltrey]

On 10/22/2018 at 6:05 PM, Dee said:

Why would Debbie build Ford's stockade right next to Patsy's?

I assume it was for maximum effect. Everyone who frequents Patsy's on the regular knows who he is and that they were a couple. It raises the level of his embarrassment.

On 10/23/2018 at 11:34 AM, taanja said:

Because it's a TV show and they only have so many sets?

That was funny either way. I don't nit pick that kind of stuff on TV shows -- or I couldn't watch anything!

I loved this ep! Loved Frank and his new crazy chick! I'm going to predict she kills him by the end of the season -- or seriously injures him. That will be fun to watch!

I love Fiona and her downward spiral. Haha! She is looking more and more like the female version of Frank. (A little like Monica too with that manic in the middle of the night welcome home party and the big ass side of beef in the plastic wrap she was trying to shove in the oven! ) I laughed out loud -- oh also the trying the booze in the store to see which one she can drink right out of the bottle! haha! When I saw that I was like-- OMG! other people do that too? < I'm not admitting anything!

Hey! The dog which she got from the old lady who died in her building didn't want to go with her. It ran away upstairs. It is now Max's (is that his name?) problem. I would have left the damn thing too. So I had NO problem with that.

Oh Karl! The look on the new girlie's (don't know her name) face when he answered some of those questions-- like whoa! He really is dumb! I predict the little wife -- Kassidy (sp?) -- will come back at a very inopportune time. There is no way that crazy chick is really gone.

I even liked Lip and that girl we have seen before. Don't know her name but their little tryst was kind of cute.

So the show is taking a break until January? What??? Me no likey!

I love and agree with everything in this post. I got the Franica.....Monicank(?!) vibes too but I'm sure she'll bounce back. A 24 hour post hospital visit binge hardly makes for a spiral - It's not like we haven't seen her do this countless times before. It just depends if she's still at it when the show returns (that bugged me too but at least the episode count is up to 14 this year).

That dog will be fine, it's the reincarnation of the Littlest Hobo! (<shameless reference to classic Canadian TV, lol!) Seriously though, the dog has a sentimental attachment to the building; Fiona gets it and that's enough. It's the beauty of television; we all know the dog ran upstairs to it's trainer off screen and don't need to get triggered because our sense of disbelief has long been well honed to a fine point of suspension........ No?.....Not everyone?......Oh...... Well, anyway......

Carl and Kelly are great together! I didn't like her at first but she's grown on me. Rather than trying to control him for her own selfish needs wants, she's trying to help him because it will benefit the both of them in the long run. I hope you're dead wrong about Kassidi coming back but my fear is all too real that she is, and it will not be pretty......On a related note, Kev's "Hahaha, shut your stupid mouth Carl!" was priceless! Don't care what anyone says, there can never be too much Kev!

Tami surprised me with her return. I was in the minority who seemed to think she was the one in the wrong with the way she treated Lip when he showed up to ask her out on a date and was dreading the day she came back. This wasn't too bad though, the way they they left it. She clearly has issues like the rest of them but it felt almost like she was admitting that she has her faults or something....I don't know but her personality wasn't nearly as abrasive as when they first met.

 

On 10/22/2018 at 7:06 PM, whiporee said:

if Max was anything less than forthcoming about the prospects of rezoning and about the possibility -- and expectations -- of additional expense, she'd have an easy case of fraud against him.

Maybe this will turn out to be the case and that story line will help facilitate Emmy's exit........ I'm not gonna hold my breath, but....

[spankydoll]

On 10/22/2018 at 11:16 AM, preeya said:

So this episode was the "midseason finale."  Next episode doesn't air until 01/20/2019.

 

On 10/22/2018 at 10:06 PM, whiporee said:

I hope this means the end of real estate. Because they really, really screwed it up. 

1) It actually takes a long time to default on a loan. Especially a business one. Fiona had plenty of time to try to bring her mortgage into compliance, and to be honest, I'm not sure why that was a concern, even if she defaulted on the investment money. She couldn't have gotten the loan without showing the cash flow to justify it; it would suck to lose 100K (more on that coming up) but it should have had no impact whatsoever on her ability to pay her mortgages. If she's got 282 on a 10-year note at a crazy rate of 10 percent, her monthly nut is about 3700. She's got at least six units at at least $800 though I think she said she was asking 13). Even paying power she should be swimming.  

2) If Max was working as her broker, he had a fiduciary duty not to work against her interests. He became her broker the moment he said he's waive his fees. He didn't say he couldn't advise her, he said he'd waive his fees. He also said he had clients who would be looking for that kind of investment. YOU CAN'T DO WHAT HE ENDED UP DOING, which is use information given to you in a client/broker relationship to gain an advantage over a client. He had a legal responsibility to tell her to get other advice. That kind of thing sends one to jail, not just losing your license. 

3) No partnership agreement ever written gives the general partner the chance to demand immediate payment from an investor or face default, especially one where they are talking about a long process like rezoning.  As a GP, you are ALWAYS trying to get your investors to pay, and it takes a long time, not just a coffee shop conversation. There has to be a vote; Max can't just say he wants 25K and he wants it now. And even if we forget that, there's no way Fiona just loses her investment -- her partnership interest may have been devalued, but you can't just go to your partners and demand more money or we'll just take what you've already put in (trust me, my life would have been a lot easier if you could). And if Max was anything less than forthcoming about the prospects of rezoning and about the possibility -- and expectations -- of additional expense, she'd have an easy case of fraud against him. She'd have a case of fraud even if he did disclose -- enough of one where he'd just give her money back rather than face the legal consequences. 

This goes back to one of the real problems I end up having with the show -- they take situations beyond reality in order to continually screw the Gallaghers. There are plenty of others, but here's three off the top of my head: A) LIp's college would have bent over backwards to keep him from filing a lawsuit over the Helene situation.  There is NO circumstance where they would have thrown him out of school or taken away his RA job because he had an affair with a professor. Their exposure would have been huge, and they'd know it. B) Liam would have NEVER been thrown out of the private school, especially because the parents didn't like the fact that Frank slept with many of them while they were all sleeping with each other. The PR risk to the school would be far too great. C) if Ian was off his meds and that was considered by the court to be a legal justification for what he did, he'd be in a psychiatric hospital. If the court didn't see it that way, then there's no justification offering him the plea bargain he took.  If the court considered him mentally ill and that illness was the reason for his criminal act, they don't send you to prison. That's a violation of cruel and unusual punishment. 

I like the show a lot -- and I'll stick with it -- but I liked it better when the circumstances were both more extreme and more realistic, when it was enough to show a dysfunctional family surviving in tough situations without artificial ones thrown at them. The things that have conspired against Fiona the least two weeks are both unrealistic, and her spiral didn't really fit either. Fiona's been through a lot -- it seems very unrealistic she would have been this distraught over the little setback she had. That's why as much as I enjoy the show, I wish they'd have just ended it two years ago with everyone on an uptick. To keep the angst going they have to start treat artificially creating issues that just wouldn't really exist.  

Real Estate development is.not.for the uneducated. My dad has been in that business since the 70's and the shit that goes on would curl your hair. He bailed out of one project because two of the partner s were shady and the very decent man who stayed in the deal went from running for mayor of Boston to spending years in prison.  

 

I knew that this was going to be a disaster for Fiona .She may be street smart but she seems very impressed by a suit.  

I am very curious about how her.story will end  

[Dee]

3 hours ago, spankydoll said:

I am very curious about how her.story will end  

Where it began. Running off with JimmyJackSteve.

[spankydoll]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

Where it began. Running off with JimmyJackSteve.

Me likey! I hope that you are a writer for the show. I thought for sure that she would die from an overdose or pass out drunk in the snow. Something like that.

[Daltrey]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

Where it began. Running off with JimmyJackSteve.

No! That would reflect zero character growth and undo everything she's done to upgrade her lot in life, little as that may be. After the Ford fiasco I'd hate for her take away to be that she's ultimately a loser and fated to end up with a loser, so why not the devil she knows? I'd rather her be alone than say fuck it and give up; that's never been her characters arc, nor has it really been for any of the kids. They've always striven for better in some way, shape or form....if not always at the same time. It would suck if her story ended back at square one, IMO.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Daltrey said:

No! That would reflect zero character growth and undo everything she's done to upgrade her lot in life, little as that may be.

That didn't stop the show from putting Ian back with Mickey. So why should Fiona's exit be treated with any more grace?

[Daltrey]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

3 hours ago, Daltrey said:

No! That would reflect zero character growth and undo everything she's done to upgrade her lot in life, little as that may be.

That didn't stop the show from putting Ian back with Mickey. So why should Fiona's exit be treated with any more grace?

That's a fair point. I don't see Ian and Mickey being back together as a regression. Ian has been back sliding away from his best self for quite awhile now, all on his own choices. Whatever good he's managed for the homeless/LGBTQ kids, he hasn't been taking care of himself. Whether or not it started in a healthy place, and regardless of how rocky it ever got, Ian and Mickey is a solid relationship with deep roots. Ian always tried to keep mickey on the straight and narrow and Mickey always tried to keep Ian healthy once the bi-polar kicked in; they always called each other on their BS. They are both at their best with each other. Ironically, that currently happens to be in prison, lol, but at least it gives a dash of hope that they can one day be free and happy.

[Dee]

That's the thing, Ian and Mickey aren't, and weren't ever, a rock solid relationship, and they're not at their best when they're with each other. That was the entire point of Season 5.

Ian never tried to keep Mickey on the straight & narrow. Ian was increasingly willing to risk his livelihood to court Mickey's affection regardless of who they hurt/destroyed/inconvenienced in the process.  Also Mickey didn't always try to keep Ian healthy when Ian's bipolar manifested. It took a complete psychotic break, jail time and a mental health stay just for Mickey to admit Ian's mental illness was an issue.

The show spent so many years mining Gallavich's toxicity for media attention, and simply refusing to deal with how terribly they squandered any potential for Ian, as a character, post-Noel Fisher's exit, they just threw the two characters back together as a "happy ending" when it was anything but.

So I expect them to do no different with Fiona and JimmyJackSteve.

[Daltrey]

I disagree. Like I said, It may not have started healthy, but where they left off when Mickey bailed to Mexico was when Ian was at his best. I forget all the details, I can't remember what Mickey did that caused him to run but it seems to me that he was also in a pretty good place, otherwise. They may not have ever been truly great but they were probably as good as they were going to get in Gallagher world. Honestly, I wasn't' expecting it to happen, nor was I ever hoping and praying that it would - I'd barely even heard that CM was leaving - but I like that they left him somewhere, again ironically, where he and Mickey might be able to get back to that point and possibly even grow.

32 minutes ago, Dee said:

So I expect them to do no different with Fiona and JimmyJackSteve.

In all likelihood it's a definite possibility.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it would be a terrible idea, personally. JJS was a colossal douche-nozzle; Fiona was likeable at times but they were both garbage people and together they were a dumpster fire. They already brought him back from the dead once in fan service and almost had her leave with him but she realized she was already a better person and better off without him. To do it a second time would be a complete waste of all the growth she's had, which despite her frequent and ongoing stumbles, I believe has been fairly significant. From what I understand, ER isn't leaving completely; I believe she has said she will still be around in a diminished capacity and I don't see the point of bringing JC back and having them start over, if that's the case. That said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they do decide to bring him back and have them live happily stupid after. I just don't want them to.

[Dee]

Ian aiding & abetting an escaped convict wasn't Ian at his best. There's a reason why everyone in Ian's life was against Ian's behavior, and why Ian, himself, chose not to pursue that life.

Mickey was never a white knight. He wasn't ever a good guy. He was a greedy, violent, racist scumbag that would sell his own mother out for a quick buck.

Mickey is/was as toxic for Ian, as JimmyJackSteve is/was for Fiona. But the show constantly gave them a free pass because they chose to reap the media accolades in exchange for completely forgoing actual character based writing.

And if Mickey is "as good as Ian was going to get in the Gallagher world" then there should be no problem with Fiona potentially running off with JimmyJackSteve, and the idea that Fiona should be held to a standard that Ian isn't, pretty much explains itself.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Dee

[Daltrey]

11 minutes ago, Dee said:

the show constantly gave them a free pass because they were chose to reap the free media accolades in exchange for completely forgoing actual character based writing.

What hell does this even mean?!

 

Never mind, I don't care. Better questions would be "why do you seem so angry?" or "Why do you feel the need to negate my perspective or try to prove me wrong?" It's just a TV show and these people aren't real, what difference does it make? I'm entitled to my opinion, all I did was share it with your quote for context; it wasn't a personal attack. Can we not disagree?

[Dee]

I'm basing my posts on events that actually occurred onscreen, instead of a idealized version of a couple that never happened.

As for the rest of your post? Have a blessed day. :)

[Daltrey]

48 minutes ago, Dee said:

I'm basing my posts on events that actually occurred onscreen, instead of a idealized version of a couple that never happened.

As for the rest of your post? Have a blessed day. :)

Right. Yeah sure, you too. :)

[Dee]

Indeed. :)

[heatherchandler]

On 10/22/2018 at 2:03 PM, msrachelj said:

so the first thing i came away with is that the p.o.s animal abusing gallaghers are at it again. fiona left a defenseless , already abandoned, little dog to fend for itself in a building that is being sold. fucking bitch. so fuck you fiona. you deserve what you now have. and we had to be reminded of the bunny in the micro. fuck. 

this show is getting really stupid and ridiculous or else it's been too long or i've been watching too long. what they did with fionas boyfriend was WTF.  

so much more but never mind. i wish this were the last year. but i have to watch till the it's done. invested too many years. 

I HATE that!  

Ok - the bunny in the microwave - I don't remember this, and I have seen all episodes.  When did that happen?

I am not loving the last few seasons.  I assume there will be writer turnover on all shows, but I feel like the writing is SO different from the first few seasons, and not in a good way.  It is like the writers didn't even watch the beginning seasons.

I will keep watching, too, but I will also keep complaining.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 11:42 AM, Chaos Theory said:

It’s always so funny to me....it’s alwYs “the dog” that gets everyone so riled up.  Fiona was in a bad way and in no position to care for a puppy and the dog ran away. Was she suppose to chase him through a building that was no longer her with a broken arm and possible concussion.  But it is the dog that matters.  

I know this is a tv show, and none of this is actually real.. but I don't like when people abandon animals - take it to a shelter!

 

On 11/3/2018 at 6:53 PM, Dee said:

Where it began. Running off with JimmyJackSteve.

Is this what the original Shameless (UK) did?  Just curious where those characters ended up, and if that will inform the US version.

[Chaos Theory]

2 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

 

I know this is a tv show, and none of this is actually real.. but I don't like when people abandon animals - take it to a shelter!

 

What shelter?  Unless the shelter is near by Fiona just gig into a car accident has a concussion broken arm and has just signed away her building.  Are people really expecting her first priority to be a dog?  What if there is no shelter nearby?  Does that mean taking the dog home and feeding it?  

[aemom]

6 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

What shelter?  Unless the shelter is near by Fiona just gig into a car accident has a concussion broken arm and has just signed away her building.  Are people really expecting her first priority to be a dog?  What if there is no shelter nearby?  Does that mean taking the dog home and feeding it?  

The dog was hers for a while.  She just left it in the building and moved back to the Gallagher house.  It wasn't a random dog, it was her dog.

[heatherchandler]

7 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

What shelter?  Unless the shelter is near by Fiona just gig into a car accident has a concussion broken arm and has just signed away her building.  Are people really expecting her first priority to be a dog?  What if there is no shelter nearby?  Does that mean taking the dog home and feeding it?  

I can only assume you are messing with me.  Yes - absolutely- the dog, a living being completely dependent on his human owner should be her priority.  You don’t take on a dog unless you are prepared to care for it.  It’s her dog!  

Broken arm or not, the dog needs to be cared for.  The dog cannot care for himself.

People who abandon animals are the lowest of the low.

Edited November 21, 2018 by heatherchandler

[msrachelj]

On 11/20/2018 at 2:24 PM, Chaos Theory said:

What shelter?  Unless the shelter is near by Fiona just gig into a car accident has a concussion broken arm and has just signed away her building.  Are people really expecting her first priority to be a dog?  What if there is no shelter nearby?  Does that mean taking the dog home and feeding it?  

animals matter. her abandoning that dog was disgusting, in some states, illegal, and immoral. she should have taken it with her and found it a good home. i despise the fact that some people treat defenseless animals like this. yes. people do expect her priority at the moment the dog ran away from her to be to  the dog. it's called compassion and being a real human. i'm sick of it happening in real life and i'm sick of seeing it on television. 

On 10/24/2018 at 5:07 PM, Dee said:

Fiona should be more concerned for a dog than Liam?

liam was not in immediate danger. and she should be concerned about abandoning her dog. yes, very much.