S07.E15: Last Chance for Romance

[Happyfatchick]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:23 PM, KateHearts said:

And I think in part it's not because she really cares for him or wants to grow the relationship, it's that she doesn't want to start over yet again, or look bad on TV.

@KateHearts, I think this is stabbing the issue squarely in the heart.  Amber is TERRIFIED of being dumped on air.  Terrified.  This is what makes her shake.  This is what makes her (seemingly) swill alcohol.  She’s already insecure (duly noted ad nauseum), just imagine her being dismissed on tv.  

If he goes first, and says “No, I don’t want to continue”, she’ll respond with “GOOD! Me either!!!”  If he says “I want to stay married”, no way in hell is she saying she wants out.  What if SHE has to go first?  I think she’ll just pass out cold.  That’s why she needled him all day.  Because if she draws the short straw, her answer is totally contingent on his.  

I dont think she even KNOWS how she feels about him.  I think she’s totally consumed with whether she’s “in” or not.  She never got past that for even one second.  She never relaxed into being married, or had any fun with it because she can’t.  The unknown factor completely paralyzed her.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

Still hoping everyone here is safe, and no-one has been injured or lost their home due to Hurricane Michael.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I can't help but wonder if the genders had been reversed in the Bobby/Danielle dynamic.... and it was the female doing everything for the male along with saying they love them as much as their family...would people be as charmed? Is it more likely that the female would come off as desperate/pathetic and people would be screaming at her to stop pressuring the man to tell her "I love you" after such a short period of time? I was kind of thinking what comes off as such a sweet gesture in a man/might look totally different on a woman.

It seems like the pulse of most of the people in this forum, is that we actually do want Bobby to pipe down with all the "I love yous" because it seems too much for Danielle in such a short amount of time.

5 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Amber acts like a battered woman -or at least, like a woman who has learned from her past that it's not safe to "stand up for herself".

I do not think Amber acts like someone who has learned that it isn't safe to stand up for herself.  If anything, she is the polar opposite -- someone who has not learned to stop.  She doesn't seem to have any fear of speaking up, or fear (or even awareness) of the consequences.

[crazychicken]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

It seems like the pulse of most of the people in this forum, is that we actually do want Bobby to pipe down with all the "I love yous" because it seems too much for Danielle in such a short amount of time.

I do not think Amber acts like someone who has learned that it isn't safe to stand up for herself.  If anything, she is the polar opposite -- someone who has not learned to stop.  She doesn't seem to have any fear of speaking up, or fear (or even awareness) of the consequences.

Amber reminds me of a toddler that has not learnt to control their emotions yet, she seems to think that it is quite normal for a nearly 40 year old woman to have a tantrum. It must be exhausting to deal with her.

[LennieBriscoe]

Yes,  qtpye, it would look different, or,  rather,  the same culturally to us, because women are traditionally subservient (don't judge by ME,  though!). Plus,  it would appear different were Bobby a demonstrably weak and insecure man,  but he is not. 

Dave would be as Bobby,  also---if  he was in love! His "brutal honesty," his "asked and answered" 'tude, is because he doesn't care one way or another how the recipient will take it. Dave is not behaving as a man concerned that his new wife might dump him, not out of the sure love such as Bobby feels, but out of indifference. Amber intuits that.  And she doesn't like it. 

ETA: crazychicken, I don't recall any "tantrum" of Amber. If anything,  she controls her voice almost in a mimicry of Dave,  when she queries him beyond his stated limits. 

Basically, as I see it,  Amber wants to give her marriage an honest go, but she wants and needs to feel that Dave does,  too,  beyond the bed and without the wine. I think she is bitterly disappointed that this "experiment" mixed elements that reason and logic deemed suitable, but which proved  incompatible. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by LennieBriscoe

[crazychicken]

1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

ETA: crazychicken, I don't recall any "tantrum" of Amber. If anything,  she controls her voice almost in a mimicry of Dave,  when she queries him beyond his stated limits. 

Basically, as I see it,  Amber wants to give her marriage an honest go, but she wants and needs to feel that Dave does,  too,  beyond the bed and without the wine. I think she is bitterly disappointed that this "experiment" mixed elements that reason and logic deemed suitable, but which proved  incompatible. 

Off the top of my head

* Dave liking brunettes resulting in sulking

* Dave suggesting she stop dying her hair since it is breaking resulting in her sulking that he mustn't like her as a blonde

* Getting rated as a 7.5 as a wife

* Dave talking to her friend at the gym

* Running out of socks resulted in her throwing things

 

Her friends warning him at the wedding to just let her have her meltdowns would have set of a huge red flag to me as I detest whiny, sulky adults. Dave seems to be a person that instead of spending time melting down he just gets on with it to fix the problem Amber on the other hand reacts with emotions and draws the situation out, hence why I think she can not control her emotions. Having an emotional reaction to something is normal it is the way Amber deals with that reaction that I think she needs to work on, if she can stop and think, ask for clarification or ask for space then it might prevent some of the sulking.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

3 hours ago, crazychicken said:

Off the top of my head

* Dave liking brunettes resulting in sulking

* Dave suggesting she stop dying her hair since it is breaking resulting in her sulking that he mustn't like her as a blonde

* Getting rated as a 7.5 as a wife

* Dave talking to her friend at the gym

* Running out of socks resulted in her throwing things

 

Dave seems to be a person that instead of spending time melting down he just gets on with it to fix the problem Amber on the other hand reacts with emotions and draws the situation out, hence why I think she can not control her emotions. Having an emotional reaction to something is normal it is the way Amber deals with that reaction that I think she needs to work on, if she can stop and think, ask for clarification or ask for space then it might prevent some of the sulking.

...And during any of those, did you see Amber yell at Dave, even once? Amber does sulk, when she has one of her "meltdowns" --but not as long as Dave does!! Amber goes through a few minutes of jaw-clenching meltdown, and Dave (by his own admission) will sulk for hours afterward!

The 'socks' incident was not on camera, and we only have Dave's word for it that she threw things (and that was clothes, as I recall --probably while she was hunting for socks). On camera, I've never seen Amber throw anything --unless you count throwing shots of tequila down her throat!

Edited October 12, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[Crazy Bird Lady]

9 hours ago, crazychicken said:

Amber reminds me of a toddler that has not learnt to control their emotions yet, she seems to think that it is quite normal for a nearly 40 year old woman to have a tantrum. It must be exhausting to deal with her.

I've never seen Amber 'act out' in any way that looked like a toddler throwing a fit. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[Crazy Bird Lady]

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Dave would be as Bobby,  also---if  he was in love! His "brutal honesty," his "asked and answered" 'tude, is because he doesn't care one way or another how the recipient will take it. Dave is not behaving as a man concerned that his new wife might dump him, not out of the sure love such as Bobby feels, but out of indifference. Amber intuits that.  And she doesn't like it. 

Just wondering-- I know Dave said once, that he was 'always' the first one to say "I love you" --but do you think he would repeat himself, if he didn't get an "I love you" back?

Totally agree that Dave doesn't care if Amber 'dumps' him. I still think he will divorce her, although some very persuasive arguments have been posted as to why he might not declare that on Decision Day (but, instead, wait for the "reunion episode" which takes place shortly afterward). I can imagine Dave milking this "TV gig" for all he can get out of it, before he 'dumps' Amber.

 

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

ETA: crazychicken, I don't recall any "tantrum" of Amber. If anything,  she controls her voice almost in a mimicry of Dave,  when she queries him beyond his stated limits. 

Basically, as I see it,  Amber wants to give her marriage an honest go, but she wants and needs to feel that Dave does,  too,  beyond the bed and without the wine. I think she is bitterly disappointed that this "experiment" mixed elements that reason and logic deemed suitable, but which proved  incompatible. 

I totally agree. Even if she "threw" clothes around while looking for socks, that's hardly the same thing at Tristan throwing that candle at Mia as he was closing the door of 'their' apartment in her face! I really don't get why people are upset about the socks, but they ignore the candle.

[crazychicken]

It is not an either or situation they both miscommunicate it is just that by adulthood I think you should be able to use your words to explain why you are upset and find a solution. IMO sulking, throwing things achieves nothing. To me toddlers normally throw a tantrum as they can not communicate their problem that is what  I see in Amber, instead of saying 'Dave what did you mean when you said XYZ or I am upset when you say/do XYZ'  she stews and twists it in her head into a huge issue. If she uses her words and expresses the problem when it happens it gets addressed without sulking and whinging. I think we all say the wrong thing at times nobody is perfect it is how the miscommunication is addressed that is the issue here. The only person that can control Ambers reaction is Amber.

 

We have a different opinion it is not the end of the world that Amber's personality annoys me.

3 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

I  totally agree. Even if she "threw" clothes around while looking for socks, that's hardly the same thing at Tristan throwing that candle at Mia as he was closing the door of 'their' apartment in her face! I really don't get why people are upset about the socks, but they ignore the candle.

I did not address Tristan as I do not watch them they are both toxic.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

11 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

It is not an either or situation they both miscommunicate it is just that by adulthood I think you should be able to use your words to explain why you are upset and find a solution. IMO sulking, throwing things achieves nothing. To me toddlers normally throw a tantrum as they can not communicate their problem that is what  I see in Amber, instead of saying 'Dave what did you mean when you said XYZ or I am upset when you say/do XYZ'  she stews and twists it in her head into a huge issue. If she uses her words and expresses the problem when it happens it gets addressed without sulking and whinging. I think we all say the wrong thing at times nobody is perfect it is how the miscommunication is addressed that is the issue here. The only person that can control Ambers reaction is Amber.

I do agree with you that Amber, while she doesn't "throw fits" like a toddler, is unable to "use her words" to explain why she's upset and "find a solution". Amber is full of so many tangled emotions that all she can do is clench her jaw and say things like, "That's why I never wanted to get married" --and other similarly cryptic remarks that erupt from that deep, turbulent emotional well. 

Dave, on the other hand, is remarkably adept at "using his words".  On that, we also seem to agree. Dave can out-argue Amber any day, any time --and even (sometimes) make her believe that he's 100% right and she's the only  person who causes any problems in their relationship. (Of course, that only adds feelings of terrible guilt to all the other emotions Amber can't handle.)

I wonder if Dave was on the debate team in high school... 

Quote

We have a different opinion it is not the end of the world that Amber's personality annoys me.

Yes, we do. But Amber's personality annoys me, too --just not for quite the same reasons.

Quote

I did not address Tristan as I do not watch them they are both toxic.

I agree!

[LennieBriscoe]

"Sulking" is about the opposite of "having a tantrum."

I give credence only to what I see. 

And if anything,  Amber's questioning, however Dave and/or a viewer finds it annoying, incessant, or not adult,  is an attempt at communicating. It is Dave who says,  on camera,  that he's done with that conversation/topic.

He is done,  because he's done. Not because he is somehow more mature.   

Dave incredulously insisted more than once, to Bobby and to the viewing audience, that the latter's marriage simply must have some problems that Bobby and Danielle are "burying." So he,  Dave,  is not above repeating a query when not satisfied with the first answer. 

[humbleopinion]

Imagine Dave at the "Bobby" level of infatuation and commitment to Amber...

He would be a different creature...NOT the measured, choosing his words carefully, emotionally controlled man we see on screen this season.

Wouldn't it be fun to see him drunk in love instead of boozed up with Chardonnay or Merlot?  

 Dave In Love would be lauding in THs how funny Amber is and how she just delights him with her hyperbolic sense of humor making mountains of molehills...hahaha...no socks for the gym...

[humbleopinion]

Dave begged Bobby at the driving range to "give him something" to dispel the myth that he and Danielle are a perfect match.

Bobby wouldn't speak out of turn if they did...he will defend Danielle at all cost.

He keeps their marriage private, even with producers prodding and probing, cameras in his face...

So at the Good Ass Taco Man Date Bobby once again had to shut Dave down and deny there was any problems in the marriage to hide or bury....

Bobby is he is willing to be the husband Danielle wants and needs...he accepts her.

Fortunately, it isn't far from who he is in real life.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

On 10/10/2018 at 10:23 PM, Yeah No said:

I see it as she [Amber] needs to know Dave feels about her the same way she feels about him, and his inability to give her that is not the answer she wants, so she just keeps asking the question hoping to get a different answer.  He is not really being open or honest with her, though, and that's why she keeps picking away at him.  He wants her to think there's a hope and a chance of things ending up where she wants them to go if she just backs off... He'd be more than happy to take her down that road and leave her off when he was good and done with her

She has every reason to be concerned about this given that decision day is in oh, a WEEK.  

We all need to be with someone that doesn't make us feel insecure.  If we are, we are with the wrong person.  It doesn't always mean that the person feeling insecure in the relationship is a mess or has problems.

This. 

1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

"Sulking" is about the opposite of "having a tantrum."

I give credence only to what I see. 

And if anything,  Amber's questioning, however Dave and/or a viewer finds it annoying, incessant, or not adult,  is an attempt at communicating. It is Dave who says,  on camera,  that he's done with that conversation/topic.

He is done,  because he's done. Not because he is somehow more mature.   

Very well said, Lenniebruscoe. 

Although I believe Amber has deep emotional problems that complicate their whole relationship, that's nothing that I can demonstrate or prove. Giving credence only to what we see, it's very clear that Amber, on that "mini-moon," was attempting to actually get some answers from Dave that he has consistently refused to give. 

[Palomar]

Why is decision day such a big deal?  They are married and whether they decide to divorce now or give it a chance and end up divorcing a year from now if it doesn't work out.  What is the difference.....paid for lawyers fees perhaps?

[Crazy Bird Lady]

1 hour ago, Palomar said:

Why is decision day such a big deal?  They are married and whether they decide to divorce now or give it a chance and end up divorcing a year from now if it doesn't work out.  What is the difference.....paid for lawyers fees perhaps?

Perhaps. 

To my knowledge, the "big deal" is that couples who stay married are deemed "successful," and those who choose divorce are not.  At least one poster here has speculated that Amber's angst is about the humiliation of being a 'failure' on national TV at Decision Day, if she's forced to choose before Dave does and he gives a different answer than hers.

But --although there are many rumors and (unsubstantiated) reports about other incentives-- the biggest financial incentive for couples deemed "successful" on D-Day is surely the possibility of being cast in MAFS 'reality show' spin-offs like "Happily Ever After".  

Edited October 12, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[LilaFowler]

I think the show will pay for the couple's divorce costs if they decide to do that on D-Day. Beyond that, they're on their own.

I agree with C.B.L. that there are financial incentives for staying together and being fan favorites. Granted, you pretty much have to whore yourself out on social media to reap the rewards but for some people that would be worthwhile. I suspect that Bobby and Danielle are the third couple on the new Happily Ever After series. I have heard (unconfirmed) that participants will make six figures for appearing on that show. Considering the debt that Danielle has, plus the fact that they may need to either move closer to her job or she will need to get a new one, this would make good financial sense to appear on the show.

Edited October 12, 2018 by LilaFowler

[humbleopinion]

It would be too cruel to have Dave and Amber as the third couple with Shawniece heavily pregnant, ready to blow any minute and Ashley freshly impregnated.

Bobby and Amber will fit in well with the other 2 couples...all 6 are nice pleasant people.

Jephte has his charm once he gets over his skittish phase with strangers...

[islandgal140]

Like most things in life Amber's situation can be crystallized by a Seinfeld episode - Amber's Got No Hand!! She has no power in the relationship. Dave hold all cards. My impression is Decision Day is all on Dave. 

https://youtu.be/8g3tQaqizh0?t=4

Combine that screwy power dynamic with another cult Classic - Dave is bit like Lucille Bluth. He appears to get off on withholding. 

 

Classic TV comparisons aside, as much as Amber wants Dave to state his intentions, I can't really see any evidence that Amber has fallen or is falling in love with Dave either. I mostly see a woman who doesn't want to be single or rejected on national tv. I don't dislike Amber, but I think she does fall within Tristan's quoted phrase of tired of being single but not ready to be married. Most telling was her not wanting her life to be inconvenienced at all by doing extra shit for Dave, which apparently, she still ain't doing. According to Dave, he does all types of extra stuff for her like flowers and reassuring phone calls but she can't be bothered to reciprocate. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

3 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

Like most things in life Amber's situation can be crystallized by a Seinfeld episode - Amber's Got No Hand!! She has no power in the relationship. Dave hold all cards. My impression is Decision Day is all on Dave. 

https://youtu.be/8g3tQaqizh0?t=4

Combine that screwy power dynamic with another cult Classic - Dave is bit like Lucille Bluth. He appears to get off on withholding. 

 

Classic TV comparisons aside, as much as Amber wants Dave to state his intentions, I can't really see any evidence that Amber has fallen or is falling in love with Dave either. I mostly see a woman who doesn't want to be single or rejected on national tv. I don't dislike Amber, but I think she does fall within Tristan's quoted phrase of tired of being single but not ready to be married. Most telling was her not wanting her life to be inconvenienced at all by doing extra shit for Dave, which apparently, she still ain't doing. According to Dave, he does all types of extra stuff for her like flowers and reassuring phone calls but she can't be bothered to reciprocate. 

According to Dave. But Dave isn't impartial...

We saw Dave give Amber flowers for that "Romantic Carriage Ride". That's the only time I can recall. And as for chocolate... I'm pretty sure the show pays for their food, drinks, and treats on Honeymoons and "Mini-moons".

[ChristmasJones]

I think Dave and Amber bring out the worst in each other based on what is shown.  They are caught in a pursuer-distancer dynamic, where Amber is the pursuer and Dave is the distancer. The more the pursuer tries to engage with/connect to the distancer, the more the distancer pulls away (emotionally).  The more the distancer pulls away, the more the pursuer tries to establish a connection. Its a vicious cycle.

I don't fault either one of them, though, because if they attempted to minimize these tendencies early on, they would only re-emerge later down the road if they stayed married.  This is different than a couple who has been happily married for a number of years who then slide into this unhealthy dynamic. That would be something to work on and change.

I think Amber would still have insecurities, but they would be greatly diminished, if she was with a guy who was truly smitten with her, and was warm and affectionate, in words and actions.   I'd like to see how Dave would act if he was really crazy about someone. I don't think he'd be acting the way he acts toward Amber.

[Ilovepie]

10 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

I've never seen Amber 'act out' in any way that looked like a toddler throwing a fit. 

How about when she couldn’t figure out how to chop garlic at the group cooking get together and needed everyone around her to reassure her. That reaction was very immature. My nine year old doesn’t even act like that!

[PityFree]

31 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

Like most things in life Amber's situation can be crystallized by a Seinfeld episode - Amber's Got No Hand!! She has no power in the relationship. Dave hold all cards. My impression is Decision Day is all on Dave. 

https://youtu.be/8g3tQaqizh0?t=4

Combine that screwy power dynamic with another cult Classic - Dave is bit like Lucille Bluth. He appears to get off on withholding. 

 

Classic TV comparisons aside, as much as Amber wants Dave to state his intentions, I can't really see any evidence that Amber has fallen or is falling in love with Dave either. I mostly see a woman who doesn't want to be single or rejected on national tv. I don't dislike Amber, but I think she does fall within Tristan's quoted phrase of tired of being single but not ready to be married. Most telling was her not wanting her life to be inconvenienced at all by doing extra shit for Dave, which apparently, she still ain't doing. According to Dave, he does all types of extra stuff for her like flowers and reassuring phone calls but she can't be bothered to reciprocate. 

 I seriously wonder if Amber thinks that by being “pretty”,  working out, and going through her time intensive and expensive beauty routines she is contributing to the relationship and doing things for Dave.

 I don’t think David values her appearance as much as she thinks he might. He  makes comments that make me think he would really prefer a lower maintenance wife. I also don’t think Amber is attractive so all her work isn’t getting her anywhere.  If Dave feels the same way, then it’s not doing anything for him either.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

True, Ilovepie, that she clearly showed frustration at that moment, and she even stopped chopping for a bit until someone helped her out. Actually, Dave's reaction to Salsa dancing was much more robust!

Still not what what I'd call "throwing a fit" or "having a tantrum".  Maybe my kids just had more enthusiastic tantrums, but they would do anything from screaming at the top of their lungs to (literally) throwing themselves down on the floor and kicking, if they got really frustrated.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[gonecrackers]

Amber has had her moments, but as @Crazy Bird Lady reminded Dave was pathetic at the salsa dancing. He was also quite hostile when Paisley mussed his TP, throwing his hands over & nastily declaring he'd leave it for Amber to clean up. It would've taken him all of 5m to fix, & showed he was welcoming of both, but that's not what he did. Since he had those immature reactions, I'm sure there were others unseen by viewers. I don't like his holier-than-thou attitude.

They both have trouble with handling frustration & are just a terrible match.

I agree with @islandgal140 about Amber being tired of being single but not ready for marriage, but I don't think Dave is ready either.

Edited October 12, 2018 by gonecrackers

[Maximadc]

On 10/9/2018 at 10:02 PM, gonecrackers said:

Wow, Dave, that was, um, shitty risky.

What did he have to lose?

[gonecrackers]

1 minute ago, Maximadc said:

What did he have to lose?

Sex... he almost lost a lot of sex... nah; she probably would've had sex with him anyway. Sex with a stink eye.

Edited October 13, 2018 by gonecrackers

[Maximadc]

Just now, gonecrackers said:

Sex... he almost lost a lot of sex... nah; she probably would've had sex with him anyway. Sex with a stink eye.

She would... 

and Bobby will keep saying that everything is perfect and they have a similar communication style, however his wife will continue writing letters to him if she needs to express how she feels

[Maximadc]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:58 PM, athousandclowns said:

West coast here just started watching and Tristen has mustard ( Grey Poupon) pants on too. They must be a thing? Awful. 

Danielle's eyebrows are much better on unfiltered.  Previously they looked like someone used a stencil so if it's a makeup persons fault they know nothing about porportion. 

Is there a reason Jamie wears the same outfit and earrings every week? 

They all wear the same outfits. I think it was recorded during one day. What I find interesting is that I have not seen Mia once on ‘unfiltered 

[humbleopinion]

Mia was in the first 2 Unfiltereds.

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Dave's reaction to Salsa dancing was much more robust!

It was, but he was literally drenched in sweat - like the entire back of his shirt was wet! I can only imagine what his legs, ensconced in full pants in that climate, were like. I hate being sweaty like that. I would have quit too. I will give you he is buttoned up and pretty anal. I still would rather deal with him than her. One thing is for certain though - I think we all agree they don’t belong together!

[LennieBriscoe]

So many decisions that proved unfortunate, even tragic,  once looked good "on paper."

MAFS is that laughter of the Universe writ small.  

As for Bobby, he might fudge a bit about his and Danielle's "similar communication style," but that's because love precludes telling tales out of school. Plus,  he might even believe it! 

Did I miss a scene where Mia cooked? We've been shown attempts by Amber (insecure) and Danielle (game). 

Bobby. Made. Cinnamon. Rolls. That is all. *LBpencilsinheavybrowsandbatsfalseeyelashes*

[humbleopinion]

Mia burned the dish towel at the couples' night out with the chef....does that count as cooking?

She made coffee with her Keurig...does that count as cooking?

I don't think Tristan's condo had a pot.

Edited October 13, 2018 by humbleopinion

[Yeah No]

On 10/11/2018 at 2:22 PM, Neurochick said:

Yes, but if you keep asking someone, "do you love me," over and over again even AFTER the person has said yes, then maybe the issue is with you.

I of course agree, but Amber has never outright asked that question, and Dave has never uttered any verbal reassurance to her even close to that.

I don't really think Amber is in love with Dave though.  I think she thinks she could be if she got a sign from him that he was really into her.  But she's not getting that sign and I'm not either.

[Yeah No]

On 10/11/2018 at 10:04 PM, qtpye said:

I can't help but wonder if the genders had been reversed in the Bobby/Danielle dynamic.... and it was the female doing everything for the male along with saying they love them as much as their family...would people be as charmed? Is it more likely that the female would come off as desperate/pathetic and people would be screaming at her to stop pressuring the man to tell her "I love you" after such a short period of time? I was kind of thinking what comes off as such a sweet gesture in a man/might look totally different on a woman.

I have been away for a few days but I really liked this post and agree.  I have been going on in earlier week threads about how Bobby's behavior looks more needy and desperate than anything I've ever seen coming from Amber.  But I agree that in our culture people are more inclined to see a woman as needy and desperate who was not, and make excuses for a man who exhibits the same behavior.  I think part of the reason for this is that men tend to be more able to conceal their vulnerabilities.  I don't buy that Bobby is coming from a stance of security and confidence.  He just knows how to put on that act because that's what men tend to be socialized to do.  Women on the other hand more often "wear their hearts on their sleeves" and reveal their vulnerabilities, which is what draws the criticism.  Men are consummate competitors.  They often never let you see them sweat.  I sometimes wonder how much of this is wired-in and how much is learned behavior.  Women tend to place more of a value on being authentic to a fault even if it reveals flaws and weaknesses in the process.  But again, that draws criticism and blaming.

And ITA about if the shoe were on the other foot and Danielle were the one acting like Bobby people would call her desperate and needy and putting on too much pressure to hear "those three little words".

[Yeah No]

On 10/12/2018 at 6:52 PM, ChristmasJones said:

I think Dave and Amber bring out the worst in each other based on what is shown.  They are caught in a pursuer-distancer dynamic, where Amber is the pursuer and Dave is the distancer. The more the pursuer tries to engage with/connect to the distancer, the more the distancer pulls away (emotionally).  The more the distancer pulls away, the more the pursuer tries to establish a connection. Its a vicious cycle.

I once read a fantastic psychological paper on the dynamics of the distancer and the pursuer in relationships.  I think it was the single most important insight I've ever learned about with regard to relationships and it changed the way I view them forever.  We've seen it replayed over and over again on this show to some degree with all the couples, with very rare exception.  

But actually this dynamic can also exist in healthy relationships, it's just that the distancing and pursuing doesn't have to result in terminal distance, but a "boomerang" effect, where the pursuer gets tired of pursuing without getting the response they're looking for and temporarily "gives up", allowing the distancer to once again rekindle their interest in the person, then turn around and take a turn at becoming the pursuer themselves, until the same thing happens and the parties reverse roles again.

In Dave and Amber's relationship, I think Amber is afraid that if she "gives up", Dave will only retreat further.  Personally I think her fear is rooted in some reality.  If you don't have confidence that your partner (in spite of what they say) will boomerang back on you eventually, that's a real sign that they're "just not that into you".

In Bobby and Danielle's, relationship, I think Bobby taking a step back from all his relentless pursuing would actually be GOOD for them as a couple and that Danielle would boomerang back on Bobby.  The fact that Bobby has not done this shows me he lacks the confidence that if he did stop she would reciprocate.  Only in his case I think he has much less reason to fear that than Amber, so I see him as more insecure than she is.

[scruffy73]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I once read a fantastic psychological paper on the dynamics of the distancer and the pursuer in relationships.  I think it was the single most important insight I've ever learned about with regard to relationships and it changed the way I view them forever.  We've seen it replayed over and over again on this show to some degree with all the couples, with very rare exception.  

But actually this dynamic can also exist in healthy relationships, it's just that the distancing and pursuing doesn't have to result in terminal distance, but a "boomerang" effect, where the pursuer gets tired of pursuing without getting the response they're looking for and temporarily "gives up", allowing the distancer to once again rekindle their interest in the person, then turn around and take a turn at becoming the pursuer themselves, until the same thing happens and the parties reverse roles again.

In Dave and Amber's relationship, I think Amber is afraid that if she "gives up", Dave will only retreat further.  Personally I think her fear is rooted in some reality.  If you don't have confidence that your partner (in spite of what they say) will boomerang back on you eventually, that's a real sign that they're "just not that into you".

In Bobby and Danielle's, relationship, I think Bobby taking a step back from all his relentless pursuing would actually be GOOD for them as a couple and that Danielle would boomerang back on Bobby.  The fact that Bobby has not done this shows me he lacks the confidence that if he did stop she would reciprocate.  Only in his case I think he has much less reason to fear that than Amber, so I see him as more insecure than she is.

I’m interested in seeing how Bobby’s parents interact, how his dad treats his mom. Maybe he is treating Danielle how he learned from his dad. Without knowing this, we can only read into his behavior what we want to. I think most people want to feel loved and catered to by their partner so Bobby seems sweet and near perfect but I think we might look at Danielle like some look at Amber, as needy and trying-too-hard if she behaved this way. I agree that Bobby can pull back and give Danielle space to care for him. If he keeps doing everything he doesn’t give her room to do anything. She will take advantage that he has it all covered. They will be fine though. They will find balance.

Amber needs Dave’s reassurance so she can loosen up and enjoy being together. I think she is holding back her true feelings until she knows her heart is safe. It isn’t but she desperately wants it to be.

[Kareem]

I still don't look at Bobby as needy. He lived alone in a home he bought. He's used to maintaining it, cooking, making coffee for himself, taking care of his dog that he loves, etc. and he's still doing these things, only now with a wife. That doesn't put him in Amber territory, where she analyzes every word and stresses out over the majority of them.  

I said in the beginning of this I thought Danielle often appeared indifferent, and that Dave's THs don't seem to match his seemingly frustrated actions, but Bobby and Amber handle them differently. Bobby is living his normal life with the added bonus of being content with her, having the sense to keep their business relatively private as she wishes and not to constantly pressure her for The Words. They're able to enjoy each other.

Amber has been a wreck from the jump wondering whether she was his type, whether he wanted to be there, whether he saw a future with her, while blowing off his laundry that she agreed to, mountain out of a mole hill time re coloring her falling out hair, how much perfume she wears, being rated a 7.5, claiming that she believes marriage doesn't mean taking care of someone else, kids are great after age five, retiring like an old man and other odd things. I agree with those who feel she never relaxed enough to try to enjoy the given time. Boinking him twice a day isn't a relationship. She started out in babymaking mode and seems to have forgotten about the relationship in between. I think she's a handful and Dave is a no day at the beach but her issues seem to be often self-induced.  

Wishing Ricky Bobby a happily ever after and Amber a learning experience.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Kareem said:

I still don't look at Bobby as needy. He lived alone in a home he bought. He's used to maintaining it, cooking, making coffee for himself, taking care of his dog that he loves, etc. and he's still doing these things, only now with a wife. That doesn't put him in Amber territory, where she analyzes every word and stresses out over the majority of them.  

I said in the beginning of this I thought Danielle often appeared indifferent, and that Dave's THs don't seem to match his seemingly frustrated actions, but Bobby and Amber handle them differently. Bobby is living his normal life with the added bonus of being content with her, having the sense to keep their business relatively private as she wishes and not to constantly pressure her for The Words. They're able to enjoy each other.

Amber has been a wreck from the jump wondering whether she was his type, whether he wanted to be there, whether he saw a future with her, while blowing off his laundry that she agreed to, mountain out of a mole hill time re coloring her falling out hair, how much perfume she wears, being rated a 7.5, claiming that she believes marriage doesn't mean taking care of someone else, kids are great after age five, retiring like an old man and other odd things. I agree with those who feel she never relaxed enough to try to enjoy the given time. Boinking him twice a day isn't a relationship. She started out in babymaking mode and seems to have forgotten about the relationship in between. I think she's a handful and Dave is a no day at the beach but her issues seem to be often self-induced.  

Wishing Ricky Bobby a happily ever after and Amber a learning experience.

I think the only difference between Amber and any other woman on this show that was matched with someone compatible is that she wasn't matched with someone compatible.  We wouldn't have seen those other "successful" women show insecurity because they weren't matched with someone that didn't dig on them.  Amber was matched with someone that's too critical plus doesn't have great empathy.  Plus she is more open about her emotions and willing to experience them than some other people.  Put all that together and sure, she's going to show that she's in my opinion justifiably insecure.  Bobby's probably insecure if Danielle is not saying "I love you", he's just not going to show it to the world.  He's abiding by the "you have to act like a winner to be a winner" philosophy.  Or the "power of positive thinking".  That Amber isn't doing that is no stain on her as far as I'm concerned.  She has been through far more romantic relationships than Bobby has.  Most women I've known that are still single at her age are a little more cynical and "gun shy" about whether a guy is really what he's trying to present himself to be.  Bobby has the advantage of relative youth and ignorance, which is what is making him look so much better than Amber.  Once again, I hate how women, especially as they get older, get called all sorts of things I don't think they deserve.  Amber's earned her right to be insecure after a string of "Dallas douches".  How many times has Bobby been jerked around in a relationship?  Probably ZERO.  So his "confidence" is a function of his relative youth and naivete as far as I'm concerned, not a function of maturity and wisdom.

I would find it much easier to connect with Amber emotionally than say someone like Danielle, who in my opinion is rather repressed and constipated emotionally.  Over the course of my now 60 year old life I've realized that everyone has similar emotions in similar situations it's just that some people are better at hiding it (even from themselves) than others.  It makes them look far more secure and confident than they probably really are, and it certainly doesn't make them better people.

[Yeah No]

On 10/12/2018 at 8:07 AM, crazychicken said:

Off the top of my head

* Dave liking brunettes resulting in sulking

* Dave suggesting she stop dying her hair since it is breaking resulting in her sulking that he mustn't like her as a blonde

* Getting rated as a 7.5 as a wife

* Dave talking to her friend at the gym

* Running out of socks resulted in her throwing things

 

Her friends warning him at the wedding to just let her have her meltdowns would have set of a huge red flag to me as I detest whiny, sulky adults. Dave seems to be a person that instead of spending time melting down he just gets on with it to fix the problem Amber on the other hand reacts with emotions and draws the situation out, hence why I think she can not control her emotions. Having an emotional reaction to something is normal it is the way Amber deals with that reaction that I think she needs to work on, if she can stop and think, ask for clarification or ask for space then it might prevent some of the sulking.

If I got matched with a guy like Dave I'd probably have a few meltdowns too.  But I agree with the others upthread that basically say that Amber's reactions are not as bad as all that.  I haven't seen it.  I know she has been justifiably worried about how he really feels about her, but other than hearsay about something to do with socks that happened off camera, we haven't seen any tantrums.  And I agree with the poster above that said Dave is arguably worse at being sulky.

But the $64,000 question I have is who told Amber about Dave's stated preference for brunettes in the first place?  Was it the experts or did it come from him directly?  Either way, I think that was a really shitty thing to do to her or any woman on this show or otherwise.  If it came from Dave himself, that's actually even worse.  If he did, he is even more of an asshole than I thought.  What guy in that situation would want to make his new bride insecure?  That's just asking to make someone insecure.  I could see him being the one to tell though, given how clueless I think he is.

[Kareem]

I understand what you're saying, Yeah No.  I think that if things don't work out, Bobby will go on as he always has, while Amber is already throwing digs elsewhere, as if this were 8th grade. I don't think it has anything to do with "positive thinking" on Bobby's part. He seems easy going and has common sense, two things that don't describe her regardless of their age difference. The common denominator in Amber's sunk relationships seems to be Amber.  jmho

[humbleopinion]

This season there is a 3 month gap between the Decision Day show and Reunion Show.

Makes this more interesting than the week in between like last season.

I think it now changes the dynamic...keeping up the charade for 3 months is too much for those on the fence or lack trust.

Edited October 15, 2018 by humbleopinion

[Crazy Bird Lady]

43 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

If I got matched with a guy like Dave I'd probably have a few meltdowns too.  But I agree with the others upthread that basically say that Amber's reactions are not as bad as all that.  I haven't seen it.  I know she has been justifiably worried about how he really feels about her, but other than hearsay about something to do with socks that happened off camera, we haven't seen any tantrums.  And I agree with the poster above that said Dave is arguably worse at being sulky.

But the $64,000 question I have is who told Amber about Dave's stated preference for brunettes in the first place?  Was it the experts or did it come from him directly?  Either way, I think that was a really shitty thing to do to her or any woman on this show or otherwise.  If it came from Dave himself, that's actually even worse.  If he did, he is even more of an asshole than I thought.  What guy in that situation would want to make his new bride insecure?  That's just asking to make someone insecure.  I could see him being the one to tell though, given how clueless I think he is.

It was Dave, himself. Amber had already heard something from others about wives being "rated," so Amber asked Dave, directly (and on camera), how he hated rated her. Amber was very upset, especially when she found out Mia had been rated higher than she was.

[Yeah No]

42 minutes ago, Kareem said:

I understand what you're saying, Yeah No.  I think that if things don't work out, Bobby will go on as he always has, while Amber is already throwing digs elsewhere, as if this were 8th grade. I don't think it has anything to do with "positive thinking" on Bobby's part. He seems easy going and has common sense, two things that don't describe her regardless of their age difference. The common denominator in Amber's sunk relationships seems to be Amber.  jmho

Bobby's the kind of guy that would pull a 180 if he ever got jerked around and left for dead in a relationship.  I think he would act much less easy going and with much less common sense.  He's just never had that happen to him.  It's easy to act mature in the absence of real, gut wrenching life experience.  I don't buy that he's all that mature.  If he were he wouldn't be smothering Danielle with too much attention/affection/protestations of love, etc.  If Amber has a few "battle scars" on her leading to a gun shy/insecure demeanor, I'm not going to assume that this was her fault.  I'm not into victim blaming/shaming of any woman that seems to have been jerked around in relationships before.  I have seen far too many examples of women getting jerked around to jump to that conclusion.  YMMV.

[Yeah No]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

It was Dave, himself. Amber had already heard something from others about wives being "rated," so Amber asked Dave, directly (and on camera), how he hated rated her. Amber was very upset, especially when she found out Mia had been rated higher than she was.

Yes, I remember the rating thing, but what about the brunette thing specifically?  Did he mention his preference for them at that time too?  I don't remember how she found out about his preference for tall brunettes.

[humbleopinion]

Am guessing Dave stated his preference for tall, brunette, Jessica Biel type in one of the many written questionnaires or interviews in the auditioning process.

Amber fixated in her mind that since she isn't Dave's ideal type, that the cards are stacked against her.

  She is using this discrepancy as her shield and the psychological "get out of jail free card" if he rejects her.

Dave's actions and words to her in the 8 week marriage cannot erase his premarital bias against her height, looks....

Dave has tried to tell her that he was just answering one of hundreds of questions in the interview process, her looks wasn't a deal breaker.

If Dave had answered, no preference then one of the producers would have pressed him to put something down...

Suppose Dave had answered  he prefers a short, bleached blonde named Amber...Amber would fixate on that she is a natural brunette.....she was born with brown hair....

Edited October 14, 2018 by humbleopinion

[Crazy Bird Lady]

7 hours ago, Kareem said:

I understand what you're saying, Yeah No.  I think that if things don't work out, Bobby will go on as he always has, while Amber is already throwing digs elsewhere, as if this were 8th grade. I don't think it has anything to do with "positive thinking" on Bobby's part. He seems easy going and has common sense, two things that don't describe her regardless of their age difference. The common denominator in Amber's sunk relationships seems to be Amber.  jmho

Yeah No answered this better than I could have.

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Bobby's the kind of guy that would pull a 180 if he ever got jerked around and left for dead in a relationship.  I think he would act much less easy going and with much less common sense.  He's just never had that happen to him.  It's easy to act mature in the absence of real, gut wrenching life experience.  I don't buy that he's all that mature. 

If Amber has a few "battle scars" on her leading to a gun shy/insecure demeanor, I'm not going to assume that this was her fault.  I'm not into victim blaming/shaming of any woman that seems to have been jerked around in relationships before.  I have seen far too many examples of women getting jerked around to jump to that conclusion.  YMMV.

I don't think I agree with the "do a 180" part -but I do agree that Bobby seems like the kind of guy who's never been in a really serious relationship before, and has never had his heart (or his ability to trust) broken. 

As to "If Amber has a few "battle scars" on her... I'm not going to assume this was her [Amber's] fault:  I couldn't possibly agree with you more! But, concerning Amber's past history with "broken hearts" (and possibly childhood experiences that could have 'educated' her on those 'issues' much earlier): none of that is on camera. Amber has never given any specific info about her own past, so that can only be conjecture. 

I definitely do share your conjecture!

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Yes, I remember the rating thing, but what about the brunette thing specifically?  Did he mention his preference for them at that time too?  I don't remember how she found out about his preference for tall brunettes.

I don't know. It would be an assumption for me to say, "It had to have either come from Dave, himself, or one of the so-called "experts".  Or, Amber may not have had any previous knowledge about Dave's preference for "tall brunettes" (a preference which was later confirmed by one of the "experts"). 

In any case, Amber herself brought up the topic not long after the wedding... when she asked Dave who his "celebrity crush" had been.

6 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Am guessing Dave stated his preference for tall, brunette, Jessica Biel type in one of the many written questionnaires or interviews in the auditioning process.

As I recall, Dave (indirectly) expressed that preference on air very early in this year's MAFS season. Amber asked Dave who he had "put down" as his "celebrity crush" --and it was Jessica Biel (who is of course famous as a tall brunette with beautiful hair). 

Quote

If Dave had answered, no preference then one of the producers would have pressed him to put something down...

That's pure conjecture --but I agree. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Crazy Bird Lady

[gonecrackers]

25 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Amber has never given any specific info about her own past, so that can only be conjecture. 

Yes, conjecture, but based on her 'no more Dallas douches' comment she made at the beginning of the show.

25 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

As I recall, Dave (indirectly) expressed that preference on air very early in this year's MAFS season.

Also very early on, actually on the honeymoon, he said had he known about 'gym guy' he would've never agreed to the marriage. This, & his passive aggressive behavior & comments during the marriage, show me he was at least somewhat checked out right from there. And those incidents were only the ones shown; we don't know what else he's said or how he's acted sans cameras. The only thing he tells us about himself is positive, of course...

Edited October 14, 2018 by gonecrackers

[ECM1231]

3 hours ago, gonecrackers said:

Yes, conjecture, but based on her 'no more Dallas douches' comment she made at the beginning of the show.

Also very early on, actually on the honeymoon, he said had he known about 'gym guy' he would've never agreed to the marriage. This, & his passive aggressive behavior & comments during the marriage, show me he was at least somewhat checked out right from there. And those incidents were only the ones shown; we don't know what else he's said or how he's acted sans cameras. The only thing he tells us about himself is positive, of course...

Can you elaborate on the bolded a bit more, GONECRACKERS?  I missed that particular episode and I have seen that comment that Dave made about said gym guy being referenced quite a bit.  Was he just an acquaintance of Dave's?  Had Amber had an actual relationship with 'gym guy' or was it a one night stand type of thing?  I could maybe understand Dave being so upset if it had been an actual friend, but just some random  dude acquaintance?  At 36 and 37 both of them are going to have a sexual history.

And Yeah No, I love your posts.  It's as if you are reading my mind but articulating what I want to say so much better than I ever could. I despise Dave, I truly do. He is a very cold, critical and anal person. No warmth emanating from him at all. Nada, Niente, Zilch!  Amber's insecure nature is only made worse when she is with Dave b/c she correctly intuits that he is just not into her. I wish she'd be brave enough to dump his ass on Decision Day.  Let him crawl back to his wall of bros!