S03.E03 Katie Girls

[Dreamboat Annie]

5 hours ago, TVForever said:

who are just plain selfish- who don't have a great deal of interest in another person's "stuff" beyond how it might benefit them. Some people tend to get away with it because they're physically attractive, or socially charismatic, or both.

I think you may have just described in a nutshell the clinical definition of the term "female sociopath". 

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

I think you may have just described in a nutshell the clinical definition of the term "female sociopath". 

This is the definition of sociopath. There are not separate definitions for male and female:

 

a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

These are the traits of a sociopath:

 

Glibness and Superficial Charm.

Manipulative and Conning. They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. ...

Grandiose Sense of Self. ...

Pathological Lying. ...

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. ...

Shallow Emotions. ...

Incapacity for Love.

Need for Stimulation.

We haven't seen any indication that Zoe lacks a conscience.  She hasn't thrown any of the children off of a rooftop.  We haven't seen her manipulating anyone. She's been honest with Kevin about what she does and does not want out of a relationship.  I don't have enough info to say whether or not she has a grandiose sense of self.  We don't know of any lies that she's told.  We haven't really seen her do anything yet that she needs to show remorse, shame or guilt over.   

I really feel like the word sociopath is overused in general.  

[Soup333]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I really feel like the word sociopath is overused in general.  

Maybe, but this sounds like an ex of mine. *shudders*

[Dreamboat Annie]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She hasn't thrown any of the children off of a rooftop.

She doesn't have to do anything physically violent to be a sociopath.

 

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I really feel like the word sociopath is overused in general.  

I don't think those whose lives have been adversely affected (or completely destroyed) by one would agree with you in general. 

[Katy M]

Just now, Dreamboat Annie said:

I don't think those whose lives have been adversely affected (or completely destroyed) by one would agree with you in general. 

I don't think those that have actually been affected by a real sociopath are those that are suggesting that Zoe is one just because, reasons.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

You're correct, IVF egg retrievals are not generally done with general anesthesia.  And, not to harp on Kate's weight too much, but, in doing the egg retrieval and later in placing the embryos, various instruments, needles, catheters, etc have to be used.  And someone whose weight is so concentrated in their abdomen is perhaps going to be too 'thick' for those instruments to reach.  And, once the instruments are in position, it is going to be hard to maneuver them into the proper position because of the thickness of her skin, vaginal wall, etc.  In morbidly obese women Kate's size, the vagina is very long and narrow due to the fat below the skin and vaginal walls and therefore, often an extra long and narrow speculum has to be used to visualize the cervix to get the embryos into the uterus, and, even then, may not allow adequate visualization and or room to manipulate the cervix, etc to get the proper positioning for embryo placement.  There are instruments which are extra long to use for obese patients; but Kate is at the size where even those would possibly not be enough.  I have seen it and have had it happen to me in the OR.

I have known of patients with serious issues who needed surgeries and were unable to have them because they were literally too large and the instruments were too short.  God forbid Kate needs a cesarean.  There would need to be multiple extra assistants around the table to hold retractors to make enough space for a surgeon to work.

That sounds pretty grim.  Would it be part of valid informed consent for Kate's doctor to have enumerated these particular risks?  Of course what we saw was a general statement about the odds, then a complete reversal by the doctor after consulting her partners, but realistically wouldn't the patient be informed of all these possibilities?  I mean I'd want to know if there weren't big enough instruments if I needed surgery. 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

That sounds pretty grim.  Would it be part of valid informed consent for Kate's doctor to have enumerated these particular risks?  Of course what we saw was a general statement about the odds, then a complete reversal by the doctor after consulting her partners, but realistically wouldn't the patient be informed of all these possibilities?  I mean I'd want to know if there weren't big enough instruments if I needed surgery. 

The informed consent would have to include a discussion of how Kate's size would complicate the procedure, make it much more technically difficult and perhaps not even possible.  She should also have been informed that she is far more likely to suffer 'normal' complications like infections, bleeding and anesthesia complications.  A while back, I mentioned the serious complications a woman of Kate's size will be at risk for during pregnancy and, I personally think that any infertility specialist caring for a woman with significant risks in pregnancy needs to be frank with that woman about the fact that getting pregnant doesn't guarantee a happy outcome.  I would certainly have told Kate that her current size makes the procedure much more technically difficult and is one of the reasons she has a such a low chance of success.

[Court]

What is with the Nigerian lady? First, she's mad last week at Randall helping and now she seems to blame him for what happened to her daughter? I kinda hate her. 

 

Also,Randall you can't challenge the council man because you don't live there! 

[Violetgoblin6]

On 10/11/2018 at 10:28 PM, methodwriter85 said:

I have browsed yearbooks from 1968-1969 and one thing that struck me is how conservative a lot of the students still looked. Long straight hair isn't really a thing until you start hitting the 1972 yearbooks.

Exactly my pop culture maven. Quite conservative in my mom's 67 yearbook. That hair that appears to have been "poofed" and "rolled". My mom went to high school in suburban Philadelphia. 

[PRgal]

8 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Exactly my pop culture maven. Quite conservative in my mom's 67 yearbook. That hair that appears to have been "poofed" and "rolled". My mom went to high school in suburban Philadelphia. 

I've seen sorority pics from 1970ish where MOST of the girls had long, straight hair but one or two still had poofs.  This is in Toronto, a city that wasn't (and still isn't) exactly conservative.  The school is near what WAS the hippie capital of Canada (and where singers like Joni Mitchell got their start).  Yes, some Canadian universities have sororities and fraternities.  

[TVForever]

10 hours ago, Court said:

What is with the Nigerian lady? First, she's mad last week at Randall helping and now she seems to blame him for what happened to her daughter? I kinda hate her. 

 

Also,Randall you can't challenge the council man because you don't live there! 

Yeah. I find her super annoying too. Curious to see where they're going with her character.

[qtpye]

23 hours ago, echo.Echo.ECHO said:

The girl who plays teen Kate is a fantastic actress. 

It kind of was cathartic to see teen Kate be bitchy to adult Kate instead of Rebecca.

20 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That sounds pretty grim.  Would it be part of valid informed consent for Kate's doctor to have enumerated these particular risks?  Of course what we saw was a general statement about the odds, then a complete reversal by the doctor after consulting her partners, but realistically wouldn't the patient be informed of all these possibilities?  I mean I'd want to know if there weren't big enough instruments if I needed surgery. 

 

19 hours ago, doodlebug said:

The informed consent would have to include a discussion of how Kate's size would complicate the procedure, make it much more technically difficult and perhaps not even possible.  She should also have been informed that she is far more likely to suffer 'normal' complications like infections, bleeding and anesthesia complications.  A while back, I mentioned the serious complications a woman of Kate's size will be at risk for during pregnancy and, I personally think that any infertility specialist caring for a woman with significant risks in pregnancy needs to be frank with that woman about the fact that getting pregnant doesn't guarantee a happy outcome.  I would certainly have told Kate that her current size makes the procedure much more technically difficult and is one of the reasons she has a such a low chance of success.

It is like when the show got flack for "supposedly putting it in the actress's contract to lose weight" they have been tiptoeing around real issues surrounding someone of Kate's size. Kate is quite pretty ( l love it when they put her in colors like blue) but she is much more overweight than even the average overweight person. There are going to be some harsh realities surrounding her health and it really should be spoken about in the show. That being said, not everything about the character should revolve around her weight. The show seems to have a hard time finding this happy medium. Since Kate wants it bad enough the magical fertility doctor reconsiders her case, even with the high odds of failure for no valid reason. Perhaps the doctor was visited by Jack's ghost and was told as a Pearson the rules are different for Kate and she is also daddy's princess so she gets whatever she wants.

Edited October 16, 2018 by qtpye

[the eskimo]

Quote

I went through IVF and I was not knocked out completely for the egg retrieval. It was twilight anesthesia.

Yes! I went through IVF twice and I was so frustrated that they were treating the egg retrieval as some sort of dangerous, major procedure. I was in and out in a few hours. There is just so much drama to work with in an IVF story line, I'm really not sure why they felt compelled to make things up. They could have show her stressing out over how many eggs (she would have had a good idea prior to going in for the retrieval based on how many mature follicles she had...8 is pretty great, by the way, but no indication of how many embryos she will get. I am around her age and egg quality is a big issue for us "geriatrics."). Her age and size certainly hurt her chances of success, but they don't make egg retrieval life threatening or something that requires general anesthesia. I should be relating to this storyline having experienced so much of it, but instead I'm annoyed by the fake drama of it all.

My story was certainly pretty dramatic all on its own...two IVF cycles that both ended in miscarriage, no embryos left to freeze. I was feeling quite hopeless when I conceived naturally and I now have a 5 month old daughter. But I was never scared for my life or had a life altering near-death experience, so not dramatic enough for this show, I suppose!

I did like that they addressed the whole "you could just adopt" thing. Because not only are there many reasons for wanting a biological child (the experience of being pregnant, creating a person who is a combination of you and your partner, etc.), but also adoption is just not that simple or cheap (I am lucky enough to be in a state where insurance covers fertility treatments). It's nearly impossible to adopt a baby. I think adoption is wonderful, and I was certainly considering it as an option, but it shouldn't just be assumed that it's the logical next step if you have trouble conceiving. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by the eskimo

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, the eskimo said:

es! I went through IVF twice and I was so frustrated that they were treating the egg retrieval as some sort of dangerous, major procedure. I was in and out in a few hours. There is just so much drama to work with in an IVF story line, I'm really not sure why they felt compelled to make things up. They could have show her stressing out over how many eggs (she would have had a good idea prior to going in for the retrieval based on how many mature follicles she had...8 is pretty great, by the way, but no indication of how many embryos she will get. I am around her age and egg quality is a big issue for us "geriatrics."). Her age and size certainly hurt her chances of success, but they don't make egg retrieval life threatening or something that requires general anesthesia. I should be relating to this storyline having experienced so much of it, but instead I'm annoyed by the fake drama of it all.

https://fcionline.com/our-center/for-physicians/hot-topics-from-our-physicians/obesity-and-infertility/

Specifically:

 

Quote

In addition, for women with a BMI > 40, the egg retrieval technique is more challenging, difficult and dangerous. For this reason, many IVF centers have imposed various cutoffs for BMI and IVF egg retrievals under conscious sedation. Some women with a BMI over 40 (morbid obesity) may not be able to proceed to egg retrieval and conscious sedation. At Fertility Centers of Illinois any obese women with a BMI over 35 must obtain counseling regarding the increased risks to both the mom and baby, and provide authorization to proceed with IVF in light of the risks. In addition, any woman whose BMI is between 40-50 may proceed with IVF and anesthesia, as long as they pass medical clearance and anesthesia clearance. A consultation with a Maternal Fetal Medicine specialist may also be required to discuss potential risks to mom & baby. Because of the heightened associated risks, patients with a BMI over 50 will not be permitted to proceed with fertility treatment.

I don't know what Kate's BMI is, but it doesn't sound like the supersafe, simple procedure that you experienced.  

[doodlebug]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

https://fcionline.com/our-center/for-physicians/hot-topics-from-our-physicians/obesity-and-infertility/

Specifically:

 

I don't know what Kate's BMI is, but it doesn't sound like the supersafe, simple procedure that you experienced.  

Just looking at her, I can tell you Kate's BMI is at least 50 and could be 60 or more.  I looked online and it said she was 5 ft 4in and Mandy Moore is 5 ft 10 in.  Mandy is significantly taller than Chrissy, so that is probably fairly accurate. If she is 5 ft 4 in, she would have a BMI of 40 at around 235 lbs.  She is much larger than that probably at least 100 lbs larger, which is why it is hard to imagine a clinic waiving the rules for Kate unless they waive them for virtually every woman with a BMI greater than 40.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Just looking at her, I can tell you Kate's BMI is at least 50 and could be 60 or more.  I don't know how tall Chrissy Metz is, but she is much shorter than all of the other women on the show.  If we presume she is 5 ft 4 in, she would have a BMI of 40 at around 235 lbs.  She is much larger than than, probably at least 100 lbs larger, which is why it is hard to imagine a clinic waiving the rules for Kate unless they waive them for virtually every woman with a BMI greater than 40.

OK, I admittedly know nothing about calculating BMI.  But, if she's at least 50, from the research I've been doing it sounds like it would be very risky and that show is not being overly dramatic, but perhaps unrealistic in a supposedly reputable doctor actually performing the procedure.

[doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

OK, I admittedly know nothing about calculating BMI.  But, if she's at least 50, from the research I've been doing it sounds like it would be very risky and that show is not being overly dramatic, but perhaps unrealistic in a supposedly reputable doctor actually performing the procedure.

Yep, which is why her doctor would not only be legally liable if something goes wrong; she would be in danger of losing her privileges at the clinic and perhaps get in trouble with the medical board.  As noted above, while some fertility clinics will consider women with BMI's over 40 if the patient is evaluated and otherwise medically fit; they won't even consider a woman with a BMI over 50, no matter how healthy she otherwise might be.  That is why it doesn't bother me too much that the show made egg retrieval look like a major procedure; for a woman Kate's size, it really is.  At 350 lbs, which I think is not an unrealistic estimate of her weight, Kate's BMI would be over 60.

I'd also be willing to bet that, over the past week, fertility clinics were flooded with calls from women who'd previously been turned down for IVF due to their weight, demanding to be admitted into the IVF program since they saw it on TV and Kate did great, so it must be safe.

[debraran]

41 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Yep, which is why her doctor would not only be legally liable if something goes wrong; she would be in danger of losing her privileges at the clinic and perhaps get in trouble with the medical board.  As noted above, while some fertility clinics will consider women with BMI's over 40 if the patient is evaluated and otherwise medically fit; they won't even consider a woman with a BMI over 50, no matter how healthy she otherwise might be.  That is why it doesn't bother me too much that the show made egg retrieval look like a major procedure; for a woman Kate's size, it really is.  At 350 lbs, which I think is not an unrealistic estimate of her weight, Kate's BMI would be over 60.

I'd also be willing to bet that, over the past week, fertility clinics were flooded with calls from women who'd previously been turned down for IVF due to their weight, demanding to be admitted into the IVF program since they saw it on TV and Kate did great, so it must be safe.

I bet you are correct. This article sums it up well. They did a disservice to some and shouldn't blame it on "TV drama" . They know they are playing with emotions.  The article talks about both sides and how they want patients to lose weight first but there are some that will do it anyway.  I've seen some very overweight patients so happy to find someone that will do their knee or hip replacement surgery after being turned down, but when something goes wrong, they want to sue. It's a slippery slope.

The few comments below article show how some other overweight patients were treated. I know it's a show, but their research over the years isn't always great.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/09/210947/ivf-this-is-us-kate-weight-fertility-treatment

Edited October 16, 2018 by debraran

[maddie965]

On 10/10/2018 at 1:57 PM, bybrandy said:

We all make choices in life.  I've lived enough years in my life to know that people die randomly every day.  Good people, bad people, old people, young people, healthy people, fat people.   Maybe Kate has the baby and that is what pushes her to get the surgery.  Maybe kate has the baby and lives another 50 years because statistics are an average they aren't the only outcome.  Would I make that decision?  I don't know.  But I know that being pro choice includes believing it is Kate and Toby's choice.  I hope for he best for their (fictional and theoretical child) but even with the best statistics in the world some kid is going to get hosed and some kid is going to hit the lottery.   Not my job to judge other peoples gambles.

I want to marry this post and have its kids.

Edited October 17, 2018 by maddie965

[ErinV]

When does Jack turn into the fun dad that we know?  Because this early Jack is melodramatic and broody, and not in an attractive way.  

I doubt Jack's mom would've just moved out so quickly when she did.  Especially for a woman of that time.  It felt wrong to me that she just did it at Jack's one suggestion.

SO glad Beth spoke up at the end.  Wasn't she the only one working at that point?  Randall would drive me crazy with his Big Idealistic Goals.  Now you're going to run for mayor or whatever?!  I love parts of their relationship, but man he would drive me crazy.

[ErinV]

On 10/9/2018 at 10:32 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Only Randall is allowed to be obsessed with his DNA and biological parents, but god forbid Kate want to pass on her father's DNA to her own children. 

Kate isn’t obligated to adopt just because she hasn’t had success conceiving. And well done for her pointing out that his hypocritical ass had two biological children. “That’s a completely different situation!” Ugh shut up.

I will give Randall some leeway, because his girls were the only blood relatives that he knew (at the time, before he met William).  Maybe he just wanted to have a bio relationship with someone.

[ShadowFacts]

9 minutes ago, ErinV said:

I doubt Jack's mom would've just moved out so quickly when she did.  Especially for a woman of that time.  It felt wrong to me that she just did it at Jack's one suggestion.

She had been enduring physical and verbal abuse for years, though.  We don't know that it was Jack's first time suggesting it, he might have been working on her for some time, years maybe.  It looks sudden, but it may not have been, she might have reached her tipping point and was ready to accept Jack's help finally.  

[chocolatine]

14 minutes ago, ErinV said:

I doubt Jack's mom would've just moved out so quickly when she did.  Especially for a woman of that time.  It felt wrong to me that she just did it at Jack's one suggestion.

It wasn’t just a suggestion, he said if she didn’t leave he’d kill his father.

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

She had been enduring physical and verbal abuse for years, though.  We don't know that it was Jack's first time suggesting it, he might have been working on her for some time, years maybe.  It looks sudden, but it may not have been, she might have reached her tipping point and was ready to accept Jack's help finally.  

 

3 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It wasn’t just a suggestion, he said if she didn’t leave he’d kill his father.

Exactly. Jack was her only living son, and I firmly believe that he would’ve done it, and she would’ve been visiting him in prison. 

We also know at this point her children had already grown up AND she had a friend to stay with (who may be a divorcee/widow/empty nester)- that’s a very different situation than a woman with young children. 

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

 

Exactly. Jack was her only living son, and I firmly believe that he would’ve done it, and she would’ve been visiting him in prison. 

We also know at this point her children had already grown up AND she had a friend to stay with (who may be a divorcee/widow/empty nester)- that’s a very different situation than a woman with young children. 

She probably also realizes that she is holding Jack back by staying with her husband.   At his age Jack should be working fulltime and finding his future wife not living with his parents to stop his father from beating his mom to death.  Jack has just met Rebecca and he knows he cannot pursue a relationship with his home life.  Jack needs his mom to be in a safe place so he can go live his life.  

[SlovakPrincess]

The idea of Miguel / Toby / Beth having a text chain to talk about how screwed up the Pearsons are?   HA HA HA!!   Love it.  

This whole Alan plot line was so utterly pointless.  We know she ends up with Jack ... why are we doing this?   At least Mandy and Milo looked super pretty in this flashback.   And I did like Jack standing up to his shitty father to get his mother out of that house.  

Yikes, poor Beth!  She was so blindsided by that lay off.  And she went into that day so gorgeous and confident, too.    :(     I liked the reminder of the special bond Beth and William formed - that was a nice little flashback.  

Teen Anesthesia-Hallucination Kate is kinda evil, lol.  "Stay here with us ... forever..."    

I really liked all the Kate scenes this episode.  Not gonna lie, I got a little verklempt when she whispered to her ghost Dad, with her voice breaking, "I have to go!"

[PRgal]

On 10/16/2018 at 4:53 PM, the eskimo said:

Yes! I went through IVF twice and I was so frustrated that they were treating the egg retrieval as some sort of dangerous, major procedure. I was in and out in a few hours. There is just so much drama to work with in an IVF story line, I'm really not sure why they felt compelled to make things up. They could have show her stressing out over how many eggs (she would have had a good idea prior to going in for the retrieval based on how many mature follicles she had...8 is pretty great, by the way, but no indication of how many embryos she will get. I am around her age and egg quality is a big issue for us "geriatrics."). Her age and size certainly hurt her chances of success, but they don't make egg retrieval life threatening or something that requires general anesthesia. I should be relating to this storyline having experienced so much of it, but instead I'm annoyed by the fake drama of it all.

My story was certainly pretty dramatic all on its own...two IVF cycles that both ended in miscarriage, no embryos left to freeze. I was feeling quite hopeless when I conceived naturally and I now have a 5 month old daughter. But I was never scared for my life or had a life altering near-death experience, so not dramatic enough for this show, I suppose!

I did like that they addressed the whole "you could just adopt" thing. Because not only are there many reasons for wanting a biological child (the experience of being pregnant, creating a person who is a combination of you and your partner, etc.), but also adoption is just not that simple or cheap (I am lucky enough to be in a state where insurance covers fertility treatments). It's nearly impossible to adopt a baby. I think adoption is wonderful, and I was certainly considering it as an option, but it shouldn't just be assumed that it's the logical next step if you have trouble conceiving. 

 

But you can be pregnant and NOT have a child biologically related to you (or both partners) OR have a child linked to both of you without being pregnant.  I agree that adoption can be crazy.  Went through it.  Didn't work.  Never doing it again (regular adoption, anyway.  We used a donor embryo for our baby - I guess that's kind of like adoption?). 

Edited October 23, 2018 by PRgal

[MaryPatShelby]

On 10/9/2018 at 9:04 PM, CleoCaesar said:

 And fucking enough with William already. No one cares.

I am so glad you said this.  Shoehorning him into meaningless scenes because they want to keep giving the actor work (apparently) is stupid.  A Very Wise Saintly Person coming back from the dead in order to be, well, wise, doesn't add to the story for me.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I am so glad you said this.  Shoehorning him into meaningless scenes because they want to keep giving the actor work (apparently) is stupid.  A Very Wise Saintly Person coming back from the dead in order to be, well, wise, doesn't add to the story for me.

I thought the flashback scene with Beth was OK.  It was a little force, but it made sense and was relevant. The scenes with Chichi were unnecessary, IMO.  Actually, I'm really annoyed with the whole storyline that Randall needs to fix William's life postmortem.  Why not fix his own?

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 9:14 PM, Dreamboat Annie said:

Jack and Rebecca.  Wow.  I would not have guessed that's how they got together.  I loved their respective backstories.  Jack a hero for his mom.  Rebecca, similarly, not liking as a child seeing her mom a servant to her dad.  Seeing a real man cleaning up, rolling up his sleeves and doing the dishes.  She could then see a life with him - and then without hesitation, he said yes to a trip out to L.A. with her. 

Not just his dream, but hers, too.  Both of them wanted to live in a house nothing like the one they grew up in.

[I'm running behind so late to the comment game but watched this episode this weekend]

thank you for these comments. I sat on my couch and cried, seriously cried, when Jack started clearing the table and doing the dishes and you saw Rebecca connect on that point. That detail meant so much to her. I'm in a marriage where we both do the dishes--so I've got it good--but this scene still deeply moved me. It's important. I grew up in a great family but when it comes to cleaning up, dad goes and sits on the couch--and I don't expect my almost 80 year old dad to change, but it's annoying. My oldest son happened to walk in the room when the show ended and I made a point to tell him to make sure he is a fully partner--that being one is a huge issue for a woman.

It's normal for me to cry with This is Us but normally it's a sentimental moment. First time to cry over a man just jump into help because that is what he does.

I loved teenage Kate--the acting was so spot on for where Kate was at that moment. Big kudos to a teenage actress.

Some say enough William, but I love seeing him, and I loved his scene with Beth. Wise words. It may be corny for him to always be the source of wise words, but I don't care. I love it.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:40 AM, Eeksquire said:

I thought it was Deja that called Randall to tell him about ChiChi's daughter, not ChiChi herself.  (I mean, given what we've seen of her, I can't imagine that it would even occur to her to call her landlord about her daughter.)  Even if you think it's unreasonable for Randall to have flown back immediately for a relative stranger's child, I don't think it's that crazy for him to fly back when Deja, the soon-to-be or newly- adopted child that Randall is desperate to bond with, calls him upset and wants him to come home.

completely agree with this. The Deja factor is what makes the flight back somewhat believable (ignoring any time issues).

[mostlylurking]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:01 PM, Court said:

What is with the Nigerian lady? First, she's mad last week at Randall helping and now she seems to blame him for what happened to her daughter? I kinda hate her. 

 

 I said the same thing to my husband!  Like first she said she wanted Randall to accept the place as it (I think?) and now she’s all why aren’t you helping more?  I didn’t like her, plus she was dismissive of Randall from the beginning.

On 10/15/2018 at 4:36 PM, doodlebug said:

You're correct, IVF egg retrievals are not generally done with general anesthesia. 

I had general anesthesia when I had my one and only egg retrieval for IVF.  I don’t think the doctor is being irresponsible.  She told her all the risks and the VERY slim chances of success.  I really can’t imagine this happening in real life though.  I’ve heard stories of doctors not going through the process unless the woman loses like 50lbs.  Obviously, Kate has a lot more than that to lose so I don’t think a doctor would want to take on that type of liability.

[mostlylurking]

Oh I forgot to add that once again Kevin couldn’t have the movie spotlight since it was overshadowed by Kate IVF stuff and then Randall getting pissed at Kate (deservedly so in my opinion).  

When Randall said he wanted to run for councilman I took that to mean they would have to move?  You know, since PA and NJ are different STATES and all, show??

Love that the “others” have their own group text and how Miguel’s observations were spot on.  I also liked the twist that Beth was upset about Kevin and Zoe not because she thought Kevin was bad for Zoe, but for the exact opposite reason.  At least someone is looking out for my boy KEvin.