S04.E10: Winner

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think there are many ways to arrive at a diagnosis of shitty writing.  I for one thought the whole Chuck-Jimmy rivalry/struggle was brilliantly conceived and written.  However this season after Chuck was gone, we were more or less left to hypothesize how it affected Jimmy, because he never talked about it, in fact refused to.  So we have to guess.  This was less satisfying to me.  Not necessarily bad writing, but I expected more.  In this episode we at least see how coldly he pretended to grieve at the grave, and how he used Chuck's memory to fleece the bar.  But I don't think I have the interest to wait another year or several months to see if his feelings ever get addressed, so that is somewhat of a fail for me.  I do plead guilty to sometimes wanting things spelled out and this is one of those times. 

One of my selfish sorrows at Chuck's demise was the thought that we may never know what led to Chuck's animosity towards his little brother.  Tucking Jimmy into bed after karaoke in this episode really brought that up for me again, because a lot of what we saw indicates he still cares for Jimmy a great deal at this point.  

ETA:  The point of the season re: Jimmy's feelings about Chuck were that he could not confront them, could not acknowledge them.  He was acting out the entire ten episodes to avoid the grief, leading to the irony in the finale of his needing the grief to obtain what he wanted and needed so badly.  So he played the grief rather than acknowledge it.  It all bubbled up in the parking garage when the shitbox car wouldn't start.  Kim worried all season he wouldn't acknowledge his grief.  She got genuinely scared when he did seem to give into it in the end -- and then once again showed that, nope, he's got nothing as far as anyone else is concerned.  Completely untrue.  He simply cannot let anyone else in on his grief and anger -- and probably a great deal of guilt holding him hostage.  Ironically the one person who wouldn't have been fooled isn't there to see it.  I doubt the irony is lost on Jimmy.    

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Decent point.  Along the same lines, I've always wondered why the drunk driver who gets pulled over or crashes into a tree usually gets a slap on the wrist, while the one who kills 4 people often gets a long prison sentence.  They both committed the same reckless act.  

We could probably apply the same principle to Huell's assault on a police officer and Jimmy's Chicago Sunroof.  Neither of them intended crimes as serious as the ones they ended up committing.  

I think we are both favor a more intent driven, rather than outcome driven system of justice.  

 

Different crimes under the code because of the result of the act.  DWI and property damage, etc. v. DWI causing injury or death.  It's the same idea if I shoot and wound someone or if I shoot and kill someone.  Felony firearm, reckless endangerment, attempted murder v.  first or second degree murder and felony firearm.

 

37 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dead Fred is going to be a lot of police interest, obviously, and the police might connect it to Werner's disappearance.  But, at least they don't have a witness telling them Mike was looking for him and making up lies and a video of Mike.  

If the police tailed Mike, instead of questioning him right away, he would have led them to the lab and the warehouse.  

Dead Fred is liable to lead police to suspect a robbery gone wrong, leading to Werner being missing, presumed dead -- assuming Mike is careful and lucky about disposing of the body. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tikichick

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Dead Fred is liable to lead police to suspect a robbery gone wrong, leading to Werner being missing, presumed dead -- assuming Mike is careful and lucky about disposing of the body. 

Are you saying they will suspect Werner as being the robber?  A victim, who the robbers took with them?  

The police might consider Werner's disappearance after picking up cash there and the "robbery" to just be a coincidence.  They will know Werner checked into the motel and that his wife spoke to him several hours after the robbery.  

I am assuming Lalo erased the video.  He seems way too smart not to have done so.   He could have even erased everything after Mike being let behind the counter by Fred, which would make it look like Mike was the killer.  But, it would seem off to the police that Mike would erase the rest of the tape, but not the part that would implicate him.   Of course, Lalo probably doesn't want Mike under police investigation.  He wants to investigate Mike and Fring himself.  

At any rate, if Lalo had not shown up and Mike left behind Fred and the video, I think Mike definitely would have been a person of interest in Werner's disappearance.  

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Are you saying they will suspect Werner as being the robber?  A victim, who the robbers took with them?  

The police might consider Werner's disappearance after picking up cash there and the "robbery" to just be a coincidence.  They will know Werner checked into the motel and that his wife spoke to him several hours after the robbery.  

I am assuming Lalo erased the video.  He seems way too smart not to have done so.   He could have even erased everything after Mike being let behind the counter by Fred, which would make it look like Mike was the killer.  But, it would seem off to the police that Mike would erase the rest of the tape, but not the part that would implicate him.   Of course, Lalo probably doesn't want Mike under police investigation.  He wants to investigate Mike and Fring himself.  

At any rate, if Lalo had not shown up and Mike left behind Fred and the video, I think Mike definitely would have been a person of interest in Werner's disappearance.  

In a few years after this takes place, this will be much, much,  less plausible, since so much security footage is automatically uploaded to the cloud.

The ubiquity and permanence of digital video has made crime related drama much more complicated, with regard to plot details.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Bannon said:

In a few years after this takes place, this will be much, much,  less plausible, since so much security footage is automatically uploaded to the cloud.

The ubiquity and permanence of digital video has made crime related drama much more complicated, with regard to plot details.

Lalo would just jump up into the cloud and shoot the security video files.  Walt would point a gigantic magnet at the cloud.  

[ShadowFacts]

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They shortened the process for many self serve pay lots. They have a self serve kiosk in some central location where you get your ticket after parking, estimating the time you'll be there, and paying up front. When you leave, you feed the ticket into the reader at the exit gate, and if you haven't overstayed your time (this can be a big headache if some bonehead has, with cars in line), the gate rises.

In our area there are commonly unattended types where you get a time stamped ticket when you enter and then insert it when exiting and pay the amount that is calculated. 

 

22 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Dead Fred is liable to lead police to suspect a robbery gone wrong, leading to Werner being missing, presumed dead -- assuming Mike is careful and lucky about disposing of the body.

 

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

At any rate, if Lalo had not shown up and Mike left behind Fred and the video, I think Mike definitely would have been a person of interest in Werner's disappearance.  

Of course he will be meticulous in how he handles it, but Mike is still not out of the woods if Margarethe is interviewed (if she's even still alive).  Werner knew Mike's last name and talked extensively with his wife, she may know it, too. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

In our area there are commonly unattended types where you get a time stamped ticket when you enter and then insert it when exiting and pay the amount that is calculated. 

 

 

Of course he will be meticulous in how he handles it, but Mike is still not out of the woods if Margarethe is interviewed (if she's even still alive).  Werner knew Mike's last name and talked extensively with his wife, she may know it, too. 

Mike's men were listening in on all phone calls.  It wasn't clear if Werner spoke with Margarethe, after making his escape.  I tend to think he didn't.  He didn't have a cell phone. (Too bad there wasn't a guy selling drop phones from a truck on the corner).  

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Lalo would just jump up into the cloud and shoot the security video files.  Walt would point a gigantic magnet at the cloud.  

I do wonder when writers, at least the good ones, will give up the trope of the gun wielding big bad erasing or grabbing the damning video evidence after whacking someone.

[PeterPirate]

I know of one parking garage at a mall called The Grove in Los Angeles that had automated exits like that for a little while.  Drive up, insert ticket, insert cash or credit card, bar goes up.  Didn't work so well, though.  They had to hire attendants to stand next to the gates and help people.  It was downright comical, like the Cone of Silence from Get Smart.  Eventually they installed self-service kiosks near the escalators.  

Edited October 11, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Tikichick]

43 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Are you saying they will suspect Werner as being the robber?  A victim, who the robbers took with them?  

The police might consider Werner's disappearance after picking up cash there and the "robbery" to just be a coincidence.  They will know Werner checked into the motel and that his wife spoke to him several hours after the robbery.  

I am assuming Lalo erased the video.  He seems way too smart not to have done so.   He could have even erased everything after Mike being let behind the counter by Fred, which would make it look like Mike was the killer.  But, it would seem off to the police that Mike would erase the rest of the tape, but not the part that would implicate him.   Of course, Lalo probably doesn't want Mike under police investigation.  He wants to investigate Mike and Fring himself.  

At any rate, if Lalo had not shown up and Mike left behind Fred and the video, I think Mike definitely would have been a person of interest in Werner's disappearance.  

It's likely they will believe Werner was followed because the robbers knew he picked up money.

37 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In a few years after this takes place, this will be much, much,  less plausible, since so much security footage is automatically uploaded to the cloud.

The ubiquity and permanence of digital video has made crime related drama much more complicated, with regard to plot details.

Even in 2018 that's not the norm.  Video is a memory hog.  Paying for that type of cloud storage simply isn't a priority for most businesses.  It's not at all uncommon for small businesses to still be running their surveillance footage on the same equipment from the timeframe of this episode.  Many large companies are no better.  It doesn't drive revenue, therefore it's rarely a priority. 

[Captanne]

I was robbed a few years ago and the perpetrator was captured by using CCTV at a Chipotle where he was using my company credit card.  (Rocket scientist, he is not.)  During the subsequent cycle of checking on the police report and status, I discovered that the statistic, "Only 5% of most CCTV cameras actually are working at any given moment", is a very real thing.

My guy ended up getting caught, tried, and will be released from jail this November.

 

ETA:  Just checked the court website -- his tenure has been extended to February, 2019.  Oops.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Captanne

[DangerousMinds]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Chuck was 100% right not to hire Jimmy once he passed the bar.  Jimmy was a guy with a shady past and a criminal record, who just acquired a dubious law degree.  HHM is supposed to be one of the top law firms in the entire Southwest.  So they look for the best possible candidates and Jimmy sure as hell wasn't it.  Jimmy didn't deserve a job at HHM and wasn't entitled to get one.  Chuck's fault was not explaining this to him, in a less brutal fashion.  But Jimmy is very self-entitled and ME ME ME so he probably would have taken it very personally.

It may have been a “dubious” law school, but not everyone can attend Harvard and he passed the bar just like anyone else.

[Bannon]

44 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

It's likely they will believe Werner was followed because the robbers knew he picked up money.

Even in 2018 that's not the norm.  Video is a memory hog.  Paying for that type of cloud storage simply isn't a priority for most businesses.  It's not at all uncommon for small businesses to still be running their surveillance footage on the same equipment from the timeframe of this episode.  Many large companies are no better.  It doesn't drive revenue, therefore it's rarely a priority. 

Hmmm, that's interesting, because so many residential security systems upload to the cloud. It's been quite a problem for some people who commit crimes in their own home.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

It may have been a “dubious” law school, but not everyone can attend Harvard and he passed the bar just like anyone else.

I wonder if Howard hadn't been able to get into a "good" law school because of low LSATs or undergraduate grades and went Jimmy's route, would his father have hired him?  I know he did not have a record so it isn't exactly the same, and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just wondering.  HHM did pay for a mail clerk, Kim, to go to law school and took her on as an associate.  They might have hired others who were not necessarily from top schools.  Albuquerque may not have been a magnet for the cream of the crop nationally.  I understand Chuck's viewpoint totally, but I don't know if it was unrealistic for Jimmy to hope for a spot there.  Letterhead, partner, of course not, but an associate, it wasn't a crazy goal. 

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I wonder if Howard hadn't been able to get into a "good" law school because of low LSATs or undergraduate grades and went Jimmy's route, would his father have hired him?  I know he did not have a record so it isn't exactly the same, and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just wondering.  HHM did pay for a mail clerk, Kim, to go to law school and took her on as an associate.  They might have hired others who were not necessarily from top schools.  Albuquerque may not have been a magnet for the cream of the crop nationally.  I understand Chuck's viewpoint totally, but I don't know if it was unrealistic for Jimmy to hope for a spot there.  Letterhead, partner, of course not, but an associate, it wasn't a crazy goal. 

A father-son relationship is different from a brother-brother relationship.  Howard would probably still have been hired, but if he was an idiot, he probably wouldn't make partner, unless the firm was really small when he joined.

Kim went to UNM, I believe, which is a lot better than UoAS. (Go Land Crabs!).  

If not for Jimmy's character issues, I think Chuck would have given him a shot as a lawyer, even though a guy with his resume from off the street would never get an interview at HHM.

I don't think it was crazy for Jimmy to hope to be an associate.   It was a bit presumptuous to assume he would be hired, though.  

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

They shortened the process for many self serve pay lots. They have a self serve kiosk in some central location where you get your ticket after parking, estimating the time you'll be there, and paying up front. When you leave, you feed the ticket into the reader at the exit gate, and if you haven't overstayed your time (this can be a big headache if some bonehead has, with cars in line), the gate rises.

That sounds hideous! I think I'd rather deal with my stickers and with Mike in the booth!

[PeterPirate]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but it occurs to me that BCS didn't get picked up for season 4 until quite a while after season 3 ended.  I can imagine that's why Howard was seen so infrequently, because Patrick Fabian was already booked for other projects.  Also why some of the story arcs seemed half-baked.  

On the flip side, BCS was renewed for season 5 at the same time as season 4, so at least they had the ability to write season 4 knowing they could bring things together next season.  

I gotta say, I'm looking forward to Saul Uninterrupted next season.  I want the free, wise-cracking guy from BB.  I also like the idea that he will still act like Jimmy around Kim during their personal time together.  ("I'm not a Sith Lord.  I only play one on TV.")

Edited October 12, 2018 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

thoroughly enjoyed Mike's gummy-exit trick but when I thought about it... I don't think I've ever seen a parking facility where you put in the card to exit.  I've seen where you take a card when you go in and then give it to the friendly cashier when you exit so he can tell you what you owe, and I've seen where you pay a flat fee to go in, then push a button to raise the arm when you exit...  Are my parking horizons l

The Kellogg Cancer Center in Evanston works almost exactly like that. Before leaving, you feed the intake ticket into a kiosk inside the center and then pay the amount owed. It then spits out an exit ticket. Once it rejected my exit ticket which was a real nuisance to resolve. Watching this episode I wondered if the guy in the car ahead of me did the gum trick—maybe just because he was mad at the universe.

[Armchair Critic]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:25 AM, benteen said:

the super magnet in Breaking Bad to me was the most unrealistic moment on either of these shows

Spoiler

Walt's rotating machine gun in the trunk of the car that wipes out the bad guys in the BB finale was the most unrealistic for me.

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The Kellogg Cancer Center in Evanston works almost exactly like that. Before leaving, you feed the intake ticket into a kiosk inside the center and then pay the amount owed. It then spits out an exit ticket. Once it rejected my exit ticket which was a real nuisance to resolve. Watching this episode I wondered if the guy in the car ahead of me did the gum trick—maybe just because he was mad at the universe.

I've been stuck in a lot where the gate didn't work and someone had to respond to a call, but it didn't take too long.  In Mike's scenario, it didn't really stop Lalo and he was able to track Werner anyhow.  It was a little Mike McGyver interlude that the writers seem to enjoy. 

[JudyObscure]

13 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I gotta say, I'm looking forward to Saul Uninterrupted next season.  I want the free, wise-cracking guy from BB.

Me, too. The first time we saw him on BB, my jaw dropped with surprised delight. I can still  hear him shouting down the hall, "Where's my masterbater?"

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

  Hide contents

Walt's rotating machine gun in the trunk of the car that wipes out the bad guys in the BB finale was the most unrealistic for me.

The rotating machine gun could work, if you were willing to risk being stopped from parking the car next to the clubhouse and not getting all the bad guys in the club house and not having access to your key fob. The writers wanted to have dialogue with Walt, Jesse , and bad guys, so they went that route. If Walt had just wanted to kill the bad guys, and free Jesse, he would have surveilled the clubhouse, determined that Jesse wasn't in it, rented a small truck, filled it with explosives, waited until the neo Nazis were in it, driven through the gate, into the clubhouse, and set the bomb off. Jesse would have been freed when the police showed up. Wouldn't have been as interesting to watch, though.

[benteen]

17 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

It may have been a “dubious” law school, but not everyone can attend Harvard and he passed the bar just like anyone else.

Agreed.  Not everyone can go to Harvard and there are a lots of good or great schools out there.  But law firms like HHM do not look for American Samoa Law.

[ShadowFacts]

41 minutes ago, benteen said:

Agreed.  Not everyone can go to Harvard and there are a lots of good or great schools out there.  But law firms like HHM do not look for American Samoa Law.

No, but maybe they should.  I've taken and passed a bar exam and the multi-state portion is uber tricky.  JFK Jr. and H. Clinton both failed it and went to "good" schools.  If Jimmy could pass it having done online work, he should theoretically be as good as anyone else.  I know it doesn't work that way. 

I'm still thinking about the Jimmy/Chuck bar celebration.   Chuck didn't only sing karaoke and get Jimmy safely home and stay there with him, he asked him if he wanted pancakes or eggs next morning.  That's just downright sweet. 

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

Hmmm, that's interesting, because so many residential security systems upload to the cloud. It's been quite a problem for some people who commit crimes in their own home.

I can tell you from what I've seen at work over the past decade-plus, surveillance footage from businesses which have been the scene of a crime are nowhere near as reliably obtained as what's seen in television and movies.  It's astounding even where the responsibility of obtaining footage falls within a police investigation.  A thumb drive or disc for download is not part of the tool kit of any evidence techs at any of the police departments I'm aware of in our area.  Collecting that footage is not assigned to the evidence tech.  For some reason collecting the footage is the domain of the officer in charge.  Many detectives still fall in the age range where it's a crapshoot how comfortable they are with tech, or how tech savvy they are.  Even among the overachievers in the bunch, many wind up defeated by being unable to obtain the footage from antiquated systems many businesses run.  It's common for the footage to be overwritten if the detective was initially unable to obtain it and is gone by the time they can locate someone to go back and try another method.

As far as residential systems uploading to the cloud, I have no idea.  But my husband refused to open ours up to the net because as an IT guy he knows that NONE of the systems available have any security on them, so are absolutely wide open to be hacked.  I can view our security cameras on my cell only when home, connected to our in-home wifi network.  Would it be nice to check on it at work or on vacation?  Sure.  My husband insists we avoid all smart home devices connected to the web because he knows that all of them, as well as cars with smart enabled features, are wide open for cyber attack.  All of our inhome security camera footage is stored via our home server.

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but it occurs to me that BCS didn't get picked up for season 4 until quite a while after season 3 ended.  I can imagine that's why Howard was seen so infrequently, because Patrick Fabian was already booked for other projects.  Also why some of the story arcs seemed half-baked.  

On the flip side, BCS was renewed for season 5 at the same time as season 4, so at least they had the ability to write season 4 knowing they could bring things together next season.  

I gotta say, I'm looking forward to Saul Uninterrupted next season.  I want the free, wise-cracking guy from BB.  I also like the idea that he will still act like Jimmy around Kim during their personal time together.  

 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Me, too. The first time we saw him on BB, my jaw dropped with surprised delight. I can still  hear him shouting down the hall, "Where's my masterbater?"

I've spent the entire series dreading Saul, assuming I was unlikely to stick with the show because I didn't enjoy him at all.  I'm hopeful we get more of a view of the masterbater defense work than the drug cartel variety.  My nerves are already getting a workout from Fring and the Salamancas.  I need the levity to balance things out.  

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

My husband insists we avoid all smart home devices connected to the web because he knows that all of them, as well as cars with smart enabled features, are wide open for cyber attack.  All of our inhome security camera footage is stored via our home server.

Your husband is smart.  And it's not just homes and autos, pacemakers and insulin pumps can be hacked, too.  Crazy. 

[PeterPirate]

37 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm still thinking about the Jimmy/Chuck bar celebration.   Chuck didn't only sing karaoke and get Jimmy safely home and stay there with him, he asked him if he wanted pancakes or eggs next morning.  That's just downright sweet. 

Chuck also put a trash can by Jimmy's bed in case he needed to ralph.  Another example of Chuck assessing Jimmy's downside risks.   

[Tikichick]

50 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Your husband is smart.  And it's not just homes and autos, pacemakers and insulin pumps can be hacked, too.  Crazy. 

His area of concentration for his master's was IT security.    As I understand it outside of cell phones and things designed to function foremost in the computing arena, all other consumer type devices with cyber aspects to them have absolutely zero capability for cyber security.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I can tell you from what I've seen at work over the past decade-plus, surveillance footage from businesses which have been the scene of a crime are nowhere near as reliably obtained as what's seen in television and movies.  It's astounding even where the responsibility of obtaining footage falls within a police investigation.  A thumb drive or disc for download is not part of the tool kit of any evidence techs at any of the police departments I'm aware of in our area.  Collecting that footage is not assigned to the evidence tech.  For some reason collecting the footage is the domain of the officer in charge.  Many detectives still fall in the age range where it's a crapshoot how comfortable they are with tech, or how tech savvy they are.  Even among the overachievers in the bunch, many wind up defeated by being unable to obtain the footage from antiquated systems many businesses run.  It's common for the footage to be overwritten if the detective was initially unable to obtain it and is gone by the time they can locate someone to go back and try another method.

As far as residential systems uploading to the cloud, I have no idea.  But my husband refused to open ours up to the net because as an IT guy he knows that NONE of the systems available have any security on them, so are absolutely wide open to be hacked.  I can view our security cameras on my cell only when home, connected to our in-home wifi network.  Would it be nice to check on it at work or on vacation?  Sure.  My husband insists we avoid all smart home devices connected to the web because he knows that all of them, as well as cars with smart enabled features, are wide open for cyber attack.  All of our inhome security camera footage is stored via our home server.

Oh, I'd never hook up anything in my home to the internet, except my computer, my television, and my phone.  As you say, security for such activity sucks. I just know of several convictions, including the pretty famous football player recently convicted of murder, where the meathead criminal didn't consider that everything in the house was being captured on video, and uploaded to the cloud, including the meathead's criminal behavior.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

No, but maybe they should.  I've taken and passed a bar exam and the multi-state portion is uber tricky.  JFK Jr. and H. Clinton both failed it and went to "good" schools.  If Jimmy could pass it having done online work, he should theoretically be as good as anyone else.  I know it doesn't work that way. 

I'm still thinking about the Jimmy/Chuck bar celebration.   Chuck didn't only sing karaoke and get Jimmy safely home and stay there with him, he asked him if he wanted pancakes or eggs next morning.  That's just downright sweet. 

What are there, three or four states left  including California, where you can still get a license to practice law, by doing a 18 hour a week apprenticeship in a law office for 4 years, and then passing the bar exam? I imagine, however, that there are few lawyers willing to take on such apprentices.

[walnutqueen]

I'm sure I am dating myself, but I effing lurve ABBA.  They are the most sing-alongable band evah.  Just don't make me look at them - it will kill my wanna-be karaoke, hairbrush-for a microphone buzz.

I'd be Chuck, taking the mic and singin' it right!

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm still thinking about the Jimmy/Chuck bar celebration.   Chuck didn't only sing karaoke and get Jimmy safely home and stay there with him, he asked him if he wanted pancakes or eggs next morning.  That's just

At that point Chuck likely still hoped rewarding Jimmy's good works could steer him in that direction. Alas, Karaoke and pancakes aren't very powerful rewards, and Chuck knew better than to offer him a partner position.

 

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

What are there, three or four states left  including California, where you can still get a license to practice law, by doing a 18 hour a week apprenticeship in a law office for 4 years, and then passing the bar exam? I imagine, however, that there are few lawyers willing to take on such apprentices.

My kids' stepmother in Cali passed the bar without attending law school after working as a secretary in law offices for 20 years. Unlike Jimmy, her sins and vices are all legal.

Edited October 13, 2018 by shapeshifter
Missing apostrophe

[Milburn Stone]

21 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I gotta say, I'm looking forward to Saul Uninterrupted next season.  I want the free, wise-cracking guy from BB.  I also like the idea that he will still act like Jimmy around Kim during their personal time together. 

You think they're gonna have personal time together?

[PeterPirate]

18 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

You think they're gonna have personal time together?

I think so.  I can imagine scenes where Jimmy tells Kim that Saul is just his professional persona, much like Walt always told Skyler he did what he did or his family.  In this way Saul Goodman can call Francesca "Honey Tits" and ogle her as she walks to her car, even while Jimmy McGill keeps house with Kim.  

[DangerousMinds]

The actress will be back in the next season, so I imagine she will interact with Saul.

[ShadowFacts]

41 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I think so.  I can imagine scenes where Jimmy tells Kim that Saul is just his professional persona, much like Walt always told Skyler he did what he did or his family.  In this way Saul Goodman can call Francesca "Honey Tits" and ogle her as she walks to her car, even while Jimmy McGill keeps house with Kim.  

I don't know.  In BB, didn't he once have a massage that was more than a massage?  Or am I making that up . . . I just have a hard time seeing the Saul Goodman from BB still being with Kim. 

10 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I've spent the entire series dreading Saul, assuming I was unlikely to stick with the show because I didn't enjoy him at all.  I'm hopeful we get more of a view of the masterbater defense work than the drug cartel variety.  My nerves are already getting a workout from Fring and the Salamancas.  I need the levity to balance things out.  

I'm right there with you.  Saul used to have his waiting room full of assorted characters that didn't strike me as necessarily in the drug world, so I would also like to see some of those other types of clients. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

The actress will be back in the next season, so I imagine she will interact with Saul.

True, but it could be mostly cold shoulder interactions.
Or maybe there will be a season-long arc of her giving him "one last chance." 
Or maybe a combination of both of these that does not end well.

[Armchair Critic]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:49 AM, JudyObscure said:

I may be the only one who thinks Jimmy is an equal with Kim on the attractiveness scale

He did convince a woman he was Kevin Costner. ;)

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know.  In BB, didn't he once have a massage that was more than a massage?  Or am I making that up . . . I just have a hard time seeing the Saul Goodman from BB still being with Kim.  

I don't think Kim is going to stick around into the BB time frame.  Either she will realize that Jimmy is being subsumed by his DBA persona, or his criminal law practice will ensnare or endanger her.  Or maybe her own misdeeds will finally catch up with her.  I can imagine a scene where Kim brings Jimmy to another S&C mixer, but now everybody thinks of him as Saul Goodman and no longer an appropriate party guest.   By the time Saul talks to Jesse about a massage "to completion", she's been vacuumed out of his life long before. 

I have to admit that I am enamored by my own theory.  I never bought the "Jimmy turns into Saul" line of thinking as a binary thing.  I prefer to have Jimmy adopt Saul Goodman with the intent of maintaining his "real" self, only to have the outward persona become the reality over time.    

There's a fantasy story by CS Lewis called The Great Divorce.  People in hell are allowed to visit heaven and are given the chance to repent and stay.  One of the characters walks around accompanied by a life-size ventriloquist dummy that speaks for him and acts like a drama queen.  Although offered the chance to toss the fake aside, he holds onto it and shrinks down until the dummy swallows him up.  I read that story over 20 years ago and just today I was reminded of it when ruminating on my idea.    

Edited October 13, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Ellaria]

18 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think Kim is going to stick around into the BB time frame.  Either she will realize that Jimmy is being subsumed by his DBA persona, or his criminal law practice will ensnare or endanger her.  Or maybe her own misdeeds will finally catch up with her.  I can imagine a scene where Kim brings Jimmy to another S&C mixer, but now everybody thinks of him as Saul Goodman and no longer an appropriate party guest.   By the time Saul talks to Jesse about a massage "to completion", she's been vacuumed out of his life long before. 

I have to admit that I am enamored by my own theory.  I never bought the "Jimmy turns into Saul" line of thinking as a binary thing.  I prefer to have Jimmy adopt Saul Goodman with the intent of maintaining his "real" self, only to have the outward persona become the reality over time.     

 

I like your theory, too. This is a universe where the characters slowly descend into their worst instincts. Character arcs don't play out overnight. I agree that Jimmy still intends to still be "Jimmy" when he is not working. I believe that what drives him finally and completely into Saul is the loss of Kim.

Now, I don't think that she dies. Or is thrown into jail for her misdeeds. The tone of either of those "ends" doesn't fit with the story telling of the show, IMO. I envision one of two scenarios:

• Kim will finally be done with him. Failed relationships don't necessarily end with massive arguments, tears, etc. Often, one partner just reaches their limit. Splits can be quiet and gradual. We already saw the beginning of that this season.
• Or, and more likely, we see another confrontation between Kim and Jimmy similar to the scene on the roof. Rather than Kim walking away, it is Jimmy that ends the relationship. Despite his charm, Jimmy is a destructive force. 

Jimmy doesn't have an anchor without Kim. Why not submit to the Saul persona in full? That's what we see in BB. And for that reason, I don't believe that Kim is around in the BB timeline.

As for Gene, he is defined by regret, guilt and fear. I would love to see Kim reunite with Gene and live (somewhat) happily ever after but that's not this show. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[SoTheresThat]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:20 AM, MissBluxom said:

I did understand one thing. It was the look on Kim's face when Jimmy reviewed the reactions of the committee to his "talk". She looked thoroughly shocked and disgusted by what he had to say.  He was bragging about how he fooled those people and got one of them to cry real tears. Meanwhile he was being completely insincere.

Wasn't it interesting that in the last episode he tried to be sincere but was perceived as being insincere. But in this episode, he was trying to fool them and he succeeded in being perceived as sincere. But he likely destroyed  his relationship with Kim by doing so and that relationship was just infinitely more valuable than his relationship with those despicable (IMHO) people on the board. Why despicable? Because they had made up their minds to deny that young lady who was deserving but gave an opportunity to Jimmy who clearly not deserving.

Still, the entire episode shook me and shattered whatever faith I thought I might have had in the legal system. Just please, let me out now. I've had enough.

The bolded stuff above.  He called the guy who cried a sap.  He didn't know that Kim had shed a few tears too.  It was at that point Kim realized Jimmy would have considered her a sap too.  That was what the look on her face was about.

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, SoTheresThat said:

The bolded stuff above.  He called the guy who cried a sap.  He didn't know that Kim had shed a few tears too.  It was at that point Kim realized Jimmy would have considered her a sap too.  That was what the look on her face was about.

Yes. Thank you for putting that into words, @SoTheresThat.

But I still imagine this scenario    

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

As for Gene, he is defined by regret, guilt and fear. I would love to see Kim reunite with Gene and live (somewhat) happily ever after

but I agree

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

that's not this show

[BradandJanet]

On Breaking Bad, Saul complains about his two ex-wives. Kim probably isn't one of them. Of course, maybe Saul never married and is just haunted by Kim, his best relationship lost. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

On Breaking Bad, Saul complains about his two ex-wives. Kim probably isn't one of them. Of course, maybe Saul never married and is just haunted by Kim, his best relationship lost. 

At this point, the easiest way for them to paint Saul out of the verbal corner/claim of two ex-wives would be to have him—in front of Kim—mention an ex-wife next season to a client (perhaps to express empathy) and then later have Kim  say to him that she didn't know he was ever married, to which he will reply he wasn't. It would contribute to her realization that he is pretty much always running a scam, while also explaining away the BrBa two-ex-wives story.

[carrps]

On 10/11/2018 at 2:24 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I wonder if Howard hadn't been able to get into a "good" law school because of low LSATs or undergraduate grades and went Jimmy's route, would his father have hired him?  I know he did not have a record so it isn't exactly the same, and I'm not arguing one way or the other, just wondering.  

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Or...

I'm completely ignorant on law school admittance policies. Do legacies even exist in that universe? Bannon???

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, carrps said:

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Well, we never see Howard drinking booze.  So, not Yale.  

Edited October 15, 2018 by PeterPirate

[carrps]

34 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, we never see Howard drinking booze.  So, not Yale.  

:-)

[Bryce Lynch]

17 hours ago, carrps said:

Eh, Howard would have been a legacy wherever his dad went. I'm sure he went somewhere "good."

Or...

I'm completely ignorant on law school admittance policies. Do legacies even exist in that universe? Bannon???

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Howard's dad went to an elite school.  Chuck said that Howard's Dad was working in a 2 room office when Chuck joined the firm.  

That's right - Chuck claimed his joining them was the key to their success (which may well have been - but it makes me wonder why Chuck wouldn't have gone to a larger, already prestigious, firm - but then (my mind is twisty this morning) we never did get a thorough background on Chuck.

[ShadowFacts]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

That's right - Chuck claimed his joining them was the key to their success (which may well have been - but it makes me wonder why Chuck wouldn't have gone to a larger, already prestigious, firm - but then (my mind is twisty this morning) we never did get a thorough background on Chuck.

Good point, why did he join a small firm in New Mexico when he had been in I think two prestigious-sounding clerkships per Howard's reading of his obit?  What drew him there?