S04.E10: Winner

[100Proof]

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? Did they actually vote again? Did they wind up choosing her but Jimmy tells her different for some reason?

[ahmerali]

28 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Unspoken, but very definitely part of Jimmy's agony in the Esteem, was not just that elites would never let him truly in - but that he was never truly good enough to ever have a Kim love him.

I'm reading that that scene is actually kind of like Walter White's 'crawl space' transformation scene - Jimmy went into the car, but Saul Goodman came out. He's there, all alone, in the 'shadow' of Chuck, deep in the parking garage, and the car won't start - the Esteem is not going to get him out of that shadow.

I actually don't really think it had much to do with Kim at all, but that's just me. Maybe there was something there, but then when Kim says "Jimmy, no matter what happens I'm with you", perhaps Jimmy figures that it's time to give up all the pretense.

15 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? Did they actually vote again? Did they wind up choosing her but Jimmy tells her different for some reason?

No, I think those scenes are there to let Jimmy get it all out of his system. To see if he could actually use his showmanship and people skills to 'sell' the elites on the idea that one of not-them could be redeemed if given the chance.

I'm sure they voted again, maybe Howard even voted for Jimmy's candidate out of pity, knowing that the others would not. They didn't choose her, Jimmy's worldview was confirmed and reinforced, and he had to let it out...maybe if only to convince himself once and for all.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? 

I saw it as Jimmy telling himself that was the only way open to him. Hopefully she goes another way.

So many parallels and contrasts in this episode! I'm glad we will have a year to unpack them. 
— Like how Gale understood men like Gus in a way Werner could never have.

The opening bit with Chuck and Jimmy was my heartbreaker. Too bad Jimmy was too drunk to remember how Chuck cared for him—and sang with him when they were alone with no audience. But back in season one, Jimmy did remember Chuck reading to him as a child, right? 
My sister and I have been estranged at times, and within the last year I had to cut short a phone call rant from her. 
But I am now painting a watercolor portrait of her that she and her grandchildren will appreciate.
I guess all the care Jimmy gave Chuck in his self-made aluminum foil prison was never going to be appreciated — perhaps because, unlike the portrait of my sister, Jimmy could only sustain the worst aspects of Chuck while he was alive rather than the best. 

This finale was a work of art.

[100Proof]

20 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

I'm reading that that scene is actually kind of like Walter White's 'crawl space' transformation scene - Jimmy went into the car, but Saul Goodman came out. He's there, all alone, in the 'shadow' of Chuck, deep in the parking garage, and the car won't start - the Esteem is not going to get him out of that shadow.

No, I think those scenes are there to let Jimmy get it all out of his system. To see if he could actually use his showmanship and people skills to 'sell' the elites on the idea that one of not-them could be redeemed if given the chance.

I'm sure they voted again, maybe Howard even voted for Jimmy's candidate out of pity, knowing that the others would not. They didn't choose her, Jimmy's worldview was confirmed and reinforced, and he had to let it out...maybe if only to convince himself once and for all.

 

14 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I saw it as Jimmy telling himself that was the only way open to him. Hopefully she goes another way.

Ah, okay, so there was nothing duplicitous about it. Maybe I should look at that bit again. But on first viewing, I was of the impression that Jimmy was telling the young lady that since she'll never be accepted by that ivy league crowd.... and apparently has a bit of a larcenous nature.... that she should also find her own inner saul goodman and take the crooked ladder to becoming even more successful than they are

Edited October 9, 2018 by 100Proof

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't know why it was so shocking to her.  She was helping him fake grief all week. 

Jimmy was so good with the pitch she forgot about that.

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

 

Ah, okay, so there was nothing duplicitous about it. Maybe I should look at that bit again. But on first viewing, I was of the impression that Jimmy was telling the young lady that since she'll never be accepted by that ivy league crowd.... and apparently has a bit of a larcenous nature.... that she should also find her own inner saul goodman and take the crooked ladder to becoming even more successful than they are

Yes, he was telling her that. But fortunately I don't think she was buying what he was selling—which was a pitch to her to do things the Slippin' Jimmy way, because that was their only option.

[Bannon]

Jimmy and Mike both died in this episode. Strangely, given Jimmy is changing names, I actually think Mike is much more aware of his demise than Jimmy is of his.

[Former Nun]

56 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

But on first viewing, I was of the impression that Jimmy was telling the young lady that since she'll never be accepted by that ivy league crowd.... and apparently has a bit of a larcenous nature.... that she should also find her own inner saul goodman and take the crooked ladder to becoming even more successful than they are

I feel they're saving her character for the next (or the next?) season.  If they jump far enough ahead, maybe she's a drug queenpin...or a judge who feels she owes her success to Jimmy.  Remember the name: Christy Esposito.

[TVFan17]

Poor Werner.   That final scene with Werner and Mike was heartbreaking.   You could tell how much Mike didn't want to have to kill him, but he also realized it would be better if he did it than to have Gus, Tyrus or Victor do it.

Werner seemed like a genuinely decent guy, but he was in over his head from the beginning.  He was strangely naive and clueless, and he just didn't realize how bad it could get if he didn't follow orders and stay put.   It was so sad, though, that his last conversation with his wife included him yelling at her and telling her he didn't want to see her.   He loved her so much, obviously -- he pulled that whole escape stunt to be with her -- and it probably killed him (no pun intended) to have to speak that way to her instead of telling her he loved her and saying a proper goodbye.   

Lalo is a loose cannon.  Although he comes off as downright chipper compared to every other humorless Salamanca family member, he is careless and reckless.   He is going to act out first and think later.     I do wonder what it is that's going to happen on this show to cause Saul/Jimmy to mention Lalo and Nacho in Breaking Bad, and to cause Saul to think that Lalo sent someone to kill him, as right now they are not on each other's radar (or so it seems).  

It was interesting to see Jimmy/Saul have such a breakdown in his car, alone.   I don't know if he was finally coming to terms with his buried feelings about Chuck's death, or if his speech/advice to Christy made him think  that no one will ever give him a proper chance to right his own wrongs/make up for his own mistakes (forcing him to become Saul).   I wasn't sure which place those tears were coming from in Jimmy's mind, but it was sad to watch.

Edited October 9, 2018 by TVFan17
typing late at night, while half-asleep, leads to gibberish and typos

[Delete]

Wow. What an episode. This entire series breaks down the events that lead up to that one defining moment when a person truly turns bad. Would it made a difference if things turned out differently for Jimmy and Mike? For instance,  lets say Jimmy got his brother’s love and acceptance, or Mike’s son was still alive. Would they have turned out to be different men? 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Barbara Please

[Conan Troutman]

Well, that one surely was a winner. They saved the best for last and Bob Odenkirk delivered. What a great speach and at the same time, you knew it was all a giant load of horseshit. RIP Jimmy McGill.

[MisterBluxom]

5 hours ago, 100Proof said:

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? Did they actually vote again? Did they wind up choosing her but Jimmy tells her different for some reason?

I am almost completely confused by this episode. I don't understand how so many people here think it was an excellent episode. There were so many scenes that I just did not understand. I'm completely stumped.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Barbara Please said:

Wow. What an episode. This entire series breaks down the events that lead up to that one defining moment when a person truly turns bad. Would it made a difference if things turned out differently for Jimmy and Mike? For instance,  lets say Jimmy got his brother’s love and acceptance, or Mike’s son was still alive. Would they have turned out to be different men? 

 

I did understand one thing. It was the look on Kim's face when Jimmy reviewed the reactions of the committee to his "talk". She looked thoroughly shocked and disgusted by what he had to say.  He was bragging about how he fooled those people and got one of them to cry real tears. Meanwhile he was being completely insincere.

Wasn't it interesting that in the last episode he tried to be sincere but was perceived as being insincere. But in this episode, he was trying to fool them and he succeeded in being perceived as sincere. But he likely destroyed  his relationship with Kim by doing so and that relationship was just infinitely more valuable than his relationship with those despicable (IMHO) people on the board. Why despicable? Because they had made up their minds to deny that young lady who was deserving but gave an opportunity to Jimmy who clearly not deserving.

Still, the entire episode shook me and shattered whatever faith I thought I might have had in the legal system. Just please, let me out now. I've had enough.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

Poor Werner.   That final scene with Werner and Mike was heartbreaking.   You could tell how much Mike didn't want to have to kill him, but he also realized it would be better if he did it than to have Gus, Tyrus or Victor do it.

Werner seemed like a genuinely decent guy, but he was in over his head from the beginning.  He was strangely naive and clueless, and he just didn't realize how bad it could get if he didn't follow orders and stay put.   It was so sad, though, that his last conversation with his wife included him yelling at her and telling her he didn't want to see her.   He loved her so much, obviously -- he pulled that whole escape stunt to be with her -- and it probably killed him (no pun intended) to have to speak that way to her instead of telling her he loved her and saying a proper goodbye.   

Lalo is a loose cannon.  Although he comes off as downright chipper compared to every other humorless Salamanca family member,  He is careless and reckless.   He is going to act out first and think later.     I do wonder what it is that's going to happen on this show to cause Saul/Jimmy to mention Lalo and Nacho in Breaking Bad, and to cause Saul to think that Lalo sent someone to kill him, as right now they are not on each other's radar (or so it seems).  

It was interesting to see Jimmy/Saul have such a breakdown in his car, alone.   I don't know if he was finally coming to terms with his buried feelings about Chuck's death, or if his speech/advice to Christy made him think  that no one will ever give him a proper chance to right his own wrongs/make up for his own mistakes (forcing him to become Saul).   I wasn't sure which place those tears were coming from in Jimmy's mind, but it was sad to watch.

 

It might have been partly Mike's fault for not communicating what would happen to Werner if he pulled a stunt like that.  Werner had no idea how much trouble he was in, until very near the end.

Werner's last phone call to his wife was similar to Walt's last call to Skyler, berating her, for her own good.  Of course, Skyler understood what Walt was doing, while Werner's wife did not.

Lalo crashing into the car in front of him to get out of the parking lot was also a call back to Ozymandias when Walt pushed Skyler's vehicle out of the way to get out of the driveway and escape with Holly.

Werner's wife and his 6 guys seem like huge loose ends for Fring.  They are all going to ask questions about Werner, and the guys all know Mike's name and might know Fring's.  Plus they all know the dig was in ABQ.

I think there were a lot of holes (no pun intended) in that plot.  It makes no sense to have such tight security, yet let them know they were in ABQ and Mike's real name, and Fring's real name.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[PeterPirate]

I can't believe this means the Coushatta scam worked.  I'm really glad to see Howard is back to form.  Not sure what his "FU" scene with Jimmy was about, though.  I'm going to keep all my previous speculations about Howard and the ADA on the back burner until next season unfolds.    

I don't get Kim crying at Jimmy's hearing.  After four seasons she should know Jimmy by now, and she herself has traveled pretty far along the path to the dark side.  She's in denial, about both of them, but I don't see her leaving Jimmy.  

I also find it difficult to accept that none of the people on both panels knew about Huell's arrest and his association with Jimmy.  

I guess I understand the purpose of the Werner story line.  Mike had to become Gus's go-to guy.  And it was Mike's first kill in cold blood.  Still, that took up a lot of screen time, and considering we never see Mike kill in cold blood in BB, I question the need for all of that.  Reminds me of another not-so-entertaining story arc from another show centered around a character named Ziegler, except that one involved the space shuttle.  

[Bryce Lynch]

Lalo kills with the cold blooded matter of fact manner of Todd, but he seems to enjoy it.  I don't think he does it for the enjoyment, but the enjoyment is a bonus.

Jimmy's plan to set a fire and rescue Judge Papadumian reminded me of the plot of the horrible, Brook Shields movie, "Endless Love".  Good thing Kim talked him out of it, without saying a word.  That should have been a clue to Kim of how demented Jimmy is 

Good to see Mike go back to his low tech methods with the gum.  When he pulled it out instead of the gun, I figured he was going to use it to lose the tail.  I don't know if it was intentional, but I thought it was funny that gum is one letter away from gun.

[lesmisfits29]

Ziegler’s guys are all dead.

I can’t believe he was so stupid... To even book the hotel under his own name.

Id have to go back to the earlier episodes, but I don’t think he knew what that hole was supposed to host?! Or was he?

I agree with pp that his death is partially on mike (well 100% on mike given he pulled the trigger!) for seeming so friendly and not explaining clearly the boundaries.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Former Nun said:

I feel they're saving her character for the next (or the next?) season.  If they jump far enough ahead, maybe she's a drug queenpin...or a judge who feels she owes her success to Jimmy.  Remember the name: Christy Esposito.

Esposito is also the surname of the actor who plays Gus. 

3 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

It was interesting to see Jimmy/Saul have such a breakdown in his car, alone.   I don't know if he was finally coming to terms with his buried feelings about Chuck's death, or if his speech/advice to Christy made him think  that no one will ever give him a proper chance to right his own wrongs/make up for his own mistakes (forcing him to become Saul).   I wasn't sure which place those tears were coming from in Jimmy's mind, but it was sad to watch.

I thought it was about Chuck, but I don't anymore, not given how he soul-lessly used Chuck's memory to do his ultimate scam.  It was about him being beaten down. 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It might have been partly Mike's fault for not communicating what would happen to Werner if he pulled a stunt like that.  Werner had no idea how much trouble he was in, until very near the end.

I think Mike thought Werner was reading between the lines with his previous warnings, but he wasn't.  Werner was ultimately caught in Fring's web, and now Mike is, too, he knows he would meet the same fate as Werner if he ever tries to get out of the business. 

[DangerousMinds]

Could he have even booked the hotel under a false name, though? Hotels do require ID, etc.

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, lesmisfits29 said:

Ziegler’s guys are all dead.

I can’t believe he was so stupid... To even book the hotel under his own name.

Id have to go back to the earlier episodes, but I don’t think he knew what that hole was supposed to host?! Or was he?

I agree with pp that his death is partially on mike (well 100% on mike given he pulled the trigger!) for seeming so friendly and not explaining clearly the boundaries.

It’s also on Mike because he screwed up the security and the search for Ziegler and was so easily followed. His super spidey security skills were flawed here. His realization of what he had done to someone else and of his own future was heartbreaking. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, Former Nun said:

I feel they're saving her character for the next (or the next?) season.  If they jump far enough ahead, maybe she's a drug queenpin...or a judge who feels she owes her success to Jimmy.  Remember the name: Christy Esposito.

She is a senior in high school, so there is no way she could be a lawyer, much less a judge in the BB timeline.  She would still be in law school in "Felina".

I doubt we ever see her again.  I think she was only there so we could get a look into Jimmy's mind.

[EtheltoTillie]

Wasn’t that one of those film students passing hors d’oeuvres at the library party?  

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, GussieK said:

Wasn’t that one of those film students passing hors d’oeuvres at the library party?  

Yes, Make Up Girl, Camera Guy and Sound Guy were all there.

[rehoboth]

6 hours ago, 100Proof said:

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? Did they actually vote again? Did they wind up choosing her but Jimmy tells her different for some reason?

Jimmy tells her what he wishes someone had told him years ago so he wouldn't have wasted so much time pursuing a life at HHM or some other big law firm.  He was in essence letting Young Jimmy know what was in store for him, that he will never be a winner, that he will always be looked down on no matter what degree he has earned or what big case he brought in to the firm.

[rehoboth]

While I didn't like Mike pulling the trigger, I do understand why he did it.  Mike was living up to his code which was explained to Jimmy in season 1.  Mike contracted with Gus to keep all those men in the compound and when Mike broke the contract, he had to clean up the mess.  Also, with Mike doing it that was the only way the Werner's wife came out of it alive.  Mike looks out for the innocents. 

I wonder how Mike will feel about Lalo killing off the Western Union guy - reminds me of the innocent guy in the desert killed by another Salamanca.

 

Jimmy had me fooled about three times in this episode.  Is it so wrong that I still want to believe him?  I must be an easy mark.

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, rehoboth said:

Jimmy tells her what he wishes someone had told him years ago so he wouldn't have wasted so much time pursuing a life at HHM or some other big law firm.  He was in essence letting Young Jimmy know what was in store for him, that he will never be a winner, that he will always be looked down on no matter what degree he has earned or what big case he brought in to the firm.

He was hitting on a truth there that a record follows you around, unfairly, for a long time, but he was not being helpful.  She needs different guidance than from a guy ranting in a parking lot. 

1 minute ago, rehoboth said:

Jimmy had me fooled about three times in this episode.  Is it so wrong that I still want to believe him?  I must be an easy mark.

Jimmy is dead to me now.  The way he had a blast fooling the bar people with his fake respect for the memory of Chuck overshadows anything I may have still liked about him.  He just oozes sleaze to me now.  So, good job, writers. 

[royalewithcheese]

Can somebody PLEASE explain the Reading Room  scam with the film crew there/? Where did Jimmy get 23,000 dollars from just to pull a scam and why did he pull it? This seemed like a stretch. Somebody convince me that it wasn't. Oh, and I did not understand the scene at the tomb stone either. Who were those people?

Edited October 9, 2018 by royalewithcheese
Add more stuff

[ahmerali]

13 minutes ago, royalewithcheese said:

Can somebody PLEASE explain the Reading Room  scam with the film crew there/? Where did Jimmy get 23,000 dollars from just to pull a scam and why did he pull it? This seemed like a stretch. Somebody convince me that it wasn't. Oh, and I did not understand the scene at the tomb stone either. Who were those people?

Jimmy made a good amount of money selling his burner phones, that's where the money came from., or at least the bulk of it. Think back to previous seasons, like when the Kettlemans gave him a stack of cash, but he gave it back to help Kim get their case...it's a recurring pattern of win a little, give it back for something 'bigger'.

The scene at the tomb stone was to convince those people - who were colleagues of Chuck in the legal profession - that Jimmy was in fact sincere about Chuck and so broken up over him that he can't even find the words to talk about him, hence was not 'insincere' at the hearing that went badly.

[nodorothyparker]

It's conceivable over the eight-month time jump that Jimmy could have squirreled away well more than 20 grand between his on the books job and his drop phone side business.  It's not like he has much in the way of bills living with Kim and no office expenses.  The dedication of the reading room wasn't a clear-cut scam as much as it was a way of drawing a lot of attention within the legal community and making a show of reverence to Chuck's memory.

The more I think about this episode, the more I think it's going to go down as one of the great ones.  Barring Lalo coming through the drop ceiling to murder poor Fred and be every bit the violently stylistic cartoon the rest of the younger generation of Salamancas often are.

Kim makes sense to me if I view her through their talk at the diner last episode following the Lubbock caper.  She was insistent that they only use their "powers" for good and that they would recognize when it was okay to do it.  In her mind, she's convinced herself it's acceptable to bend a few corners or pull a little scam for the thrill as long as it's not actually hurting anyone and something good comes of it.  Up to that point, Jimmy had been talking about getting his license back to be a criminal attorney in what she assumed was a legitimate sense.  Not as a criminal lawyer.  And nothing they were doing in this episode was really technically wrong.  Networking and making donations to get positive attention are legitimate ways business happens.  She had told him to talk about Chuck to the panel.  That's what she believed was happening.  It was only at the end when Jimmy was gloating to her as if he thought she understood and was in on the scam that she realized he was using his own unresolved issues with Chuck to manipulate the panel into doing his bidding.  And oh by the way, I'm not going to be James M. McGill, Esq., you wouldn't go back into business with anyway.  Meet Saul Goodman, criminal lawyer.

In hindsight, it was obvious that final emotional bait and switch was coming from the moment he chased down his scholarship pick on the sidewalk and clearly unnerved her in telling her how it was going to be.  Jimmy's own resentment and self-loathing over never being able to rise above being the ne'er-do-well little brother of the near deified Chuck was on full display throughout this episode.  At least that's how I read the breakdown in the broken down car in the parking garage beneath the (legal) house Chuck built.  And yet we got that lovely if initially surprising cold open back to a time when Chuck was at least believably going through the motions of caring for that little brother, even if he was quick to push his brother out of the way to grab the spotlight and belt out a verse as if to prove he was better at that too.

[ahmerali]

44 minutes ago, GussieK said:

It’s also on Mike because he screwed up the security and the search for Ziegler and was so easily followed. His super spidey security skills were flawed here. His realization of what he had done to someone else and of his own future was heartbreaking. 

Yup . Fring telling him to 'stay there' is very clear code telling Mike that either he finishes the job Fring's way (as Mike's way clearly did not work, and has caused more problems) or he's finished as Fring's guy. Mike knows that the latter means that there is no way he will ever stop being a hunted man.

[benteen]

43 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

He was hitting on a truth there that a record follows you around, unfairly, for a long time, but he was not being helpful.  She needs different guidance than from a guy ranting in a parking lot. 

Yeah, that was for Jimmy's benefit and not her.  That was Jimmy yelling out "ME ME ME!!!!"

They definitely added some confusion about when Jimmy told Chuck he wanted the job and when Howard told him they weren't going to hire him.  I've said before but I think Chuck was right not to hire Jimmy after he got his license.  At least not for a few years while he proved himself.  Now, it might have been the booze talking but if Jimmy was actually series about wanting to be made a partner, then he really overstepped himself by asking for that.

While I think this incident hurt Mike with Gus, I do think he managed to regain some points with him by executing Werner himself.

[peeayebee]

56 minutes ago, royalewithcheese said:

Can somebody PLEASE explain the Reading Room  scam with the film crew there/? Where did Jimmy get 23,000 dollars from just to pull a scam and why did he pull it? This seemed like a stretch. Somebody convince me that it wasn't. Oh, and I did not understand the scene at the tomb stone either. Who were those people?

Re the grave scene: It was the one-year anniversary of Chuck's death, so Kim & Jimmy knew that lawyers who respected Chuck would likely be visiting the grave. Jimmy planted himself there to fake-mourn Chuck's passing and make the lawyers believe Jimmy was torn up about it.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, benteen said:

Yeah, that was for Jimmy's benefit and not her.  That was Jimmy yelling out "ME ME ME!!!!"

They definitely added some confusion about when Jimmy told Chuck he wanted the job and when Howard told him they weren't going to hire him.  I've said before but I think Chuck was right not to hire Jimmy after he got his license.  At least not for a few years while he proved himself.  Now, it might have been the booze talking but if Jimmy was actually series about wanting to be made a partner, then he really overstepped himself by asking for that.

While I think this incident hurt Mike with Gus, I do think he managed to regain some points with him by executing Werner himself.

I agree, Jimmy was having a tantrum about his own situation, not giving the girl any  sort of good advice.

Jimmy clearly told Chuck as soon as he passed the bar, in Chuck's office.  The same day (Jimmy and Kim are wearing the same clothes), Howard (doing Chuck's bidding, as we find out later) tells Jimmy they won't be hiring him as a lawyer.  

The swearing in ceremony would have be after this, probably weeks later, at least.  Either it is a continuity error, or Jimmy or drunk Jimmy was fantasizing about something he knew would never happen.  I lean towards the latter, as when he first asked Chuck to hire him as a lawyer, he didn't seem to have any delusions about being at partner (at least not at that point) and adding another M to HHM to make it more symmetrical.  

I find it interesting that Chuck was willing to vouch for Jimmy before the bar.  Maybe he felt there was no way out of it, but that was a huge thing for "The Law Is Sacred" Chuck.   

What do new attorneys who can't find anyone to vouch for them do?  Are there lawyers who will vouch for a fee? :)  I could see Jimmy  Saul making that one of his services.  

[Eyes High]

The karaoke scene was terribly on the nose, with Chuck being a much better singer than Jimmy and taking over the song to show off (not to mention the lyrics), but I loved it.

[Bannon]

56 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, that was for Jimmy's benefit and not her.  That was Jimmy yelling out "ME ME ME!!!!"

They definitely added some confusion about when Jimmy told Chuck he wanted the job and when Howard told him they weren't going to hire him.  I've said before but I think Chuck was right not to hire Jimmy after he got his license.  At least not for a few years while he proved himself.  Now, it might have been the booze talking but if Jimmy was actually series about wanting to be made a partner, then he really overstepped himself by asking for that.

While I think this incident hurt Mike with Gus, I do think he managed to regain some points with him by executing Werner himself.

It would have perfectly reasonable, and astute, for Chuck to tell Jimmy, "Go build a practice of your own, out of nothing, for 4 or 5 years, and then if your success means that greater access to capital would be useful, THEN we will talk about bringing you under the HHM banner. That would require honesty, however, something the McGill brothers have in short supply.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bannon

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, 100Proof said:

And what the heck was that business of chasing after that scholarship candidate and the diatribe? Did they actually vote again? Did they wind up choosing her but Jimmy tells her different for some reason?

I think they voted her down again.  Howard might have gone along and given her a vote, but if she had made the cut, there is no reason Jimmy would lie to her. 

[100Proof]

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I am almost completely confused by this episode. I don't understand how so many people here think it was an excellent episode. There were so many scenes that I just did not understand. I'm completely stumped.

 

Something I notice (and am annoyed by) that's come about ever since the explosion of broadband internet that not coincidentally also is apparently determining the writing style/plots of many of these cable series. That is, much self referencing. The relating back to characters, incidents and dialog from long past episodes and seasons.  I'm sure it's because every show now has lots of fan websites, forums, blogs, Wikipedia pages where people can rehash and inspect every subatomic aspect of every single episode, lol. Therefore the creators/writers have responded in kind.

Somehow, iirc, watching The Sopranos for example, never having been confused by what's going on. Every episode is more or less has a self contained plot about how the main characters respond to the situations presented. Sure there are broad story/character arcs but I don't recall any of this having to recall some specific bit of trivia from waaaaay back in order to 'get' what I'm watching at the present time.

Hell, I didn't have HBO back then and when I used to travel out of town on business  a few weeks out of the year and staying in a hotel, I used to watch whatever episode of The Sopranos happened to be running at that moment in time and thoroughly enjoying that episode and the story it depicted in and of itself. OTOH, if it was now and I was watching an episode of BCS, I wouldn't know wtf was going on at all or any see any sort of story being played out!, lol

Edited October 9, 2018 by 100Proof

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The karaoke scene was terribly on the nose, with Chuck being a much better singer than Jimmy and taking over the song to show off (not to mention the lyrics), but I loved it.

It was great because I would have never expected the buttoned-down Chuck to do it, much less do it well.  I also never expected to see Chuck patiently putting drunk Jimmy to bed and then staying there with him, but I totally bought it.  What Chuck wrote in the letter was real, how Chuck cared for young Jimmy was real, how he helped him by getting him a job at HHM was real, even his pride at getting a law degree was real.  And it all blew to hell. 

[EtheltoTillie]

27 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree, Jimmy was having a tantrum about his own situation, not giving the girl any  sort of good advice.

Jimmy clearly told Chuck as soon as he passed the bar, in Chuck's office.  The same day (Jimmy and Kim are wearing the same clothes), Howard (doing Chuck's bidding, as we find out later) tells Jimmy they won't be hiring him as a lawyer.  

The swearing in ceremony would have be after this, probably weeks later, at least.  Either it is a continuity error, or Jimmy or drunk Jimmy was fantasizing about something he knew would never happen.  I lean towards the latter, as when he first asked Chuck to hire him as a lawyer, he didn't seem to have any delusions about being at partner (at least not at that point) and adding another M to HHM to make it more symmetrical.  

I find it interesting that Chuck was willing to vouch for Jimmy before the bar.  Maybe he felt there was no way out of it, but that was a huge thing for "The Law Is Sacred" Chuck.   

What do new attorneys who can't find anyone to vouch for them do?  Are there lawyers who will vouch for a fee? :)  I could see Jimmy  Saul making that one of his services.  

In New York you don't need someone to show up with you for the swearing in. You need various people to do it on paper for your application, and it's usually people you have worked with while in law school, like a summer internship. Doing it for a fee would be an outrageous ethical breach. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by GussieK

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

Something I notice (and am annoyed by) that's come about ever since the explosion of broadband internet that not coincidentally also is apparently determining the writing style/plots of many of these cable series. That is, much self referencing. The relating back to characters, incidents and dialog from long past episodes and seasons.  I sure it's because every show has lots of fan websites, forums, blogs, Wikipedia pages where people can rehash and inspect every subatomic aspect of every single episode, lol. Therefore the creators/writers have responded in kind.

Somehow, IIRC, watching The Sopranos for example, never having been confused by what's going on. Every episode are more or less a self contained plots about how the main characters respond to the situations presented. Sure they're are broad story/character arcs but I don't recall any of this having to recall some specific bit of trivia from waaaaay back in order to 'get' what I'm watching at the present time.

I think there were a lot of Easter Eggs and call backs in the Sopranos as well, though not as many.  A big part of understanding what happened at the cryptic end of the series finale had to do with Easter Eggs 

Spoiler

For example, the episode called Members Only and the guy wearing the Members Only jacket coming into the diner, and the earlier talk about how you don't see the hit coming and everything just goes black.  There are more, but I don't remember them offhand.  

I think knowing BB and carefully watching earlier BCS episodes and remembering details, enhances the BCS experience.  But, I don't think this is necessary to understanding the plot.  

4 minutes ago, GussieK said:

In New York you don't need someone to show up with you for the swearing in. You need various people to do it on paper for your application, and it's usually people you have worked with while in law school, like a summer internship. Doing it for a fee would be an outrageous ethical breach. 

I was joking about getting paid for it.  But, "an outrageous ethical breach" sounds right up Saul's alley. :)

[EtheltoTillie]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think there were a lot of Easter Eggs and call backs in the Sopranos as well, though not as many.  A big part of understanding what happened at the cryptic end of the series finale had to do with Easter Eggs 

  Hide contents

For example, the episode called Members Only and the guy wearing the Members Only jacket coming into the diner, and the earlier talk about how you don't see the hit coming and everything just goes black.  There are more, but I don't remember them offhand.  

I think knowing BB and carefully watching earlier BCS episodes and remembering details, enhances the BCS experience.  But, I don't think this is necessary to understanding the plot.  

I was joking about getting paid for it.  But, "an outrageous ethical breach" sounds right up Saul's alley. :)

I'm in awe of some posters' ability to remember or observe Easter eggs from years ago.  So it's useful to read the postings for me.  I probably average 10 percent of what's out there. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by GussieK

[peeayebee]

53 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The karaoke scene was terribly on the nose, with Chuck being a much better singer than Jimmy and taking over the song to show off (not to mention the lyrics), but I loved it.

Also, it's kinda sad to know that Chuck won't always be able to hold a mic and be around all those electronics.

[Ohwell]

11 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Heh. Sucks for her. 

I won't feel the least bit sorry for her if she gets burned in the process. She's been up to her neck in his shenanigans. That is why I was so glad when he finally called her out on her hypocrisy last week.

The look on her face at the end, I said to myself, "Serves you right!"  She had no problem being Bonnie to his Clyde all this time, so now she knows how the other marks felt after they'd been hoodwinked.  I hope we see very little of her next season, and even though I like Howard, I'm fine if he's gone too.   

Oh Werner, that was painful to watch.  However, that final death shot was beautiful.  

The most disappointing thing about this episode was no Nacho.  I hate being left hanging until next season to find out what happened to him and his father.

Shout out to Ernesto!

[Pike Ludwell]

The karaoke sequence seemed surprising to me. I had thought Chuck showed hostility to Jimmy back then -- he didn't think Jimmy was worthy of being a lawyer from the very beginning. So all the kumbaya and caring seemed out of character.

[100Proof]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think there were a lot of Easter Eggs and call backs in the Sopranos as well, though not as many.  A big part of understanding what happened at the cryptic end of the series finale had to do with Easter Eggs 

 

While so, I would say those things were done then more or less as cutesy bits for fans and apropos to nothing really. "Oh look, she's wearing the exact same dress she did in the very first episode!"  ;-)

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Pat Hoolihan said:

The karaoke sequence seemed surprising to me. I had thought Chuck showed hostility to Jimmy back then -- he didn't think Jimmy was worthy of being a lawyer from the very beginning. So all the kumbaya and caring seemed out of character.

Chuck always cared about Jimmy.  But, he was also a bit embarrassed by him (see the dinner with Rebecca) and was not thrilled with the idea of him being a lawyer and dead set against him being a lawyer at HHM.   He was totally right about Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree being like a chimp with a machine gun.  He knew Jimmy extremely well.  He could always figure out what he was up to, whether it was the billboard rescue scam, tricking Chuck into doing his wills for him, the Mesa Verde document fraud, bribing the copy shop guy, or how to trick Jimmy into confessing and later breaking in to destroy the cassette tape.  The only thing he got wrong was thinking Jimmy would sneak in, under cover of darkness, rather than breaking down the door and confronting him.  

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Also, it's kinda sad to know that Chuck won't always be able to hold a mic and be around all those electronics.

I can't believe that totally escaped my notice!

[Tikichick]

This episode is going to take a while to unpack -- somewhat like Jimmy's real feelings about Chuck and his loss.

I'll start off kind of trivially.  I had no idea what Mike was doing with the gum and the wrappers after he pulled it out of the glovebox.  But honestly I was equal parts fascinated/terrified at that  moment about what Lalo would do next and trying to reconcile the idea the pack of gum Mike had in his glovebox was bright green!  Yes, I got hung up on the idea of how out of place the bright green gum was -- both the flavor it implied and the color not sitting down into the usual color palette of the show.  I blame all of this on my complete and utter Salamanca phobia dominating my central nervous system.

Such a gorgeously poetic opening that answered so many questions while it pushed others to the forefront.   Of course Jimmy would become grandiose and bloviate when he thought he'd finally climbed the summit.  Of course Chuck made the show of attending, but sat off by himself.  Of course Jimmy would see to it that Chuck was there to witness his victory lap.  Of course the song choice was genius and laden with so much meaning.  Of course Chuck was not going to allow Jimmy to take it all.  It all only seems like petty rivalry at this point, with Chuck seeming to be willingly resigned to tend to his little brother, even going so far to stay the night and get his breakfast order.  I cried.  

Of course Jimmy's suggestion that he go on the letterhead was ridiculous.  I wonder, was Chuck's initial plan actually to take Jimmy into the firm as an associate, only to be cut off at the knees immediately by one of Jimmy's creative suggestions?  The Chuck who not only carted his worse for the wear brother home, but put him to bed and took his breakfast order doesn't seem like he's plotting to secretly stonewall him from working at the firm entirely.

To me Kim's shock and horror at the end was that she thought Jimmy had actually genuinely tapped a vein and begun to grieve Chuck.  Kim knows Jimmy and knew Chuck.  She knew a lot about the underpinning of their relationship.  She's been very worried about Jimmy's inability to acknowledge his grief for a long time.  She thought that tapping into Jimmy's grief would "sell" the sincerity to the committee because underneath all of the shenanigans it came from a place of truth -- Jimmy was mourning Chuck.  She was completely lost when Jimmy took off the mask and there was nothing underneath but cold, hollow anger and rage about Chuck.

It broke my heart to know he only pulled off the mask to reveal yet another one.  There is NO ONE Jimmy will admit his real grief to.  Chuck would have known.  Chuck always knew.

Breaks my heart to end another season with another dead McGill brother kicking and kicking away until the lamp is overturned.  

[100Proof]

21 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

The look on her face at the end, I said to myself, "Serves you right!"  She had no problem being Bonnie to his Clyde all this time, so now she knows how the other marks felt after they'd been hoodwinked.  I hope we see very little of her next season, and even though I like Howard, I'm fine if he's gone too. 

I'll gladly pile on, lol.  Always thought Kim has one of them 'severe' looking faces. I never saw her as a sexual being whatsoever and viewed her and Jimmy being more or less just buddies as opposed to lovers

I didn't take away that Chuck was upstaging Jimmy. I think Jimmy honestly wanted Chuck to have some fun, knew his brother to be a good singer and proudly stepped aside so Chuck could enjoy himself in the moment

Edited October 9, 2018 by 100Proof

[attica]

A note of appreciation for a wee technical detail. In the Werner gets shot scene, the camera is at a distance, so we see the muzzle flash an instant before we hear the sound effect of its firing. Because light travels faster than sound. Good physics, there, show!