The Spanish Princess - General Discussion

[kieyra]

37 minutes ago, Darlin said:

Could that book be the next series and not The Other Boleyn?  I've always been fascinated by the Anne/Henry VIII story but I'd rather see a TV show focusing on Mary, Margaret and an older Katherine, even if it's Phillipa Gregory's skewed interpretation. I'm confused as to how Margaret is related to Mary Queen of Scots,  

Margaret Tudor is mother to James V of Scotland

James V of Scotland is father to Mary Queen of Scots

So Margaret was her grandmother.

(She was also Lord Darnley’s grandmother (Margaret’s daughter, also named Margaret, was Lord Darnley’s mother.))

[Bill1978]

8 hours ago, kieyra said:

Margaret Tudor is mother to James V of Scotland

James V of Scotland is father to Mary Queen of Scots

So Margaret was her grandmother.

Which all means Henry VIII tried to marry his son to his nephew's daughter.

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Which all means Henry VIII tried to marry his son to his nephew's daughter.

They love to keep it in the family. Heck, I think even Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip share some relatives. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

They love to keep it in the family. Heck, I think even Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip share some relatives. 

Oh, yes they do. Both third cousins being great-great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria and second cousins once removed on through her paternal grandmother Alexandra and Philip's paternal grandfather who were siblings. 

[Darlin]

23 hours ago, kieyra said:

Margaret Tudor is mother to James V of Scotland

James V of Scotland is father to Mary Queen of Scots

So Margaret was her grandmother.

(She was also Lord Darnley’s grandmother (Margaret’s daughter, also named Margaret, was Lord Darnley’s mother.))

Thanks so much for this!

[nodorothyparker]

I'm mostly just watching this as I remember to get around to it as it's definitely not cutting it as appointment TV.  As in the earlier two series, the costuming and hair continue to just be all over the place with "cadaverous brother" Arthur continuing his turn as Lord Farquaard from Shrek while we've also got quasi-Victorian white wedding dresses, hoop skirts, random fairy tale crowns, some vaguely Tudor-esque pieces, and weird break-away clothing straight out of a bodice ripper in the barn.  They did speed through the Arthur-Catherine marriage pretty quickly but in all fairness, they were only married about five months and they've still got another 30-something years of history to get through.   Sure, let's go with the consummation that capped what felt like about 40 minutes of Is he asexual? Is he gay? while the poor actor did his best in that terrible haircut with seemingly little more than  "ewww, girls!" to work with.

I do get what I think the show is going for in showing the reality that there was little that was very romantic out of the gate about royal arranged marriages as presented between Arthur-Catherine and poor Margaret with the unseen Scottish king.  But these girls grew up knowing it was expected of them and considered the sum of their entire worth.  While they may have had some personal feelings about that, it still feels fairly anachronistic that Margaret would truly think anyone cared what those feelings were enough to consider breaking off important alliances as a result. 

This version of Margaret Beaufort is the least interesting of the three we've seen.  She's coming off as less My Lady The King's Mother and more like a particularly bossy housekeeper everyone knows not to get on the bad side of.  We're apparently also going to continue to lament the fate of poor Teddy in the Tower throughout the run of this series too, which, yep, still dead.

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

We're apparently also going to continue to lament the fate of poor Teddy in the Tower throughout the run of this series too, which, yep, still dead.

I could imagine a Monty Pythonesque skit with poor dead Ted.  "Are you still dead, Teddy?"  <voice from the coffin>: "Yes, I'm still dead."

[Scarlett45]

On 5/14/2019 at 5:24 PM, Darlin said:

Could that book be the next series and not The Other Boleyn?  I've always been fascinated by the Anne/Henry VIII story but I'd rather see a TV show focusing on Mary, Margaret and an older Katherine, even if it's Phillipa Gregory's skewed interpretation. I'm confused as to how Margaret is related to Mary Queen of Scots,  

Have you heard that Starz is doing “The Other Boleyn Girl”? 3 Sisters, 3 Queens would be next chronologically. They had a 4 year gap between The White Queen and The White Princess, but only a 2 year gap between the latter and The Spanish Princess (production wise). We could get another series in 2021 if they started now. 

[watcher1006]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:12 PM, nodorothyparker said:

We're apparently also going to continue to lament the fate of poor Teddy in the Tower throughout the run of this series too, which, yep, still dead.

Well Elizabeth of York has exited the scene now but Margaret Pole remains fully in the thick of it. Yes I agree, we're not likely to stop hearing about her brother Teddy anytime soon.

Not liking this portrayal of Catherine (Katherine?) of Aragon too much although Charlotte Hope is appealing enough. Her mother Queen Isabella keeps being mentioned, her father Ferdinand II, not so much.

[zengirl1215]

Though the character hasn't been on screen much thus far, I have a hard time seeing anyone else portraying Charles Brandon (even a teen version) after Henry Cavill's in the Tudors.   *sigh*   😉

[vavera4ka]

2 hours ago, zengirl1215 said:

Though the character hasn't been on screen much thus far, I have a hard time seeing anyone else portraying Charles Brandon (even a teen version) after Henry Cavill's in the Tudors.   *sigh*   😉

same here. I keep wanting to see the friendship between him and Harry develop, but then I catch myself that I just wanna see Cavill and JRM be bro's and have fun lol

[zengirl1215]

20 hours ago, vavera4ka said:

same here. I keep wanting to see the friendship between him and Harry develop, but then I catch myself that I just wanna see Cavill and JRM be bro's and have fun lol

LOL YES...I loved that show (The Tudors) and Cavill/JRM worked very well together, making their on-screen friendship extremely believable. I do like the actor portraying Harry/Henry on this show, he's got a mix of cocky swagger yet vulnerability that works, so far anyway.  

[nodorothyparker]

I'm realizing how much I like the imagery in the opening credits of this one.

So we're going full blown melodrama now, complete with callbacks to the curse the Woodville women supposedly laid on any Tudor heirs in the previous series as well as an over the top deathbed scene for Elizabeth of York.  I'm always a little sad for her when I read about her dying in childbirth at the ripe old age of 37 after having spent her entire married life mostly at the whims of her zealous overbearing mother-in-law while having to continually distance herself from any scheming by Yorkist relatives and would-be York claimants, but it's hard to feel much of any of that here with her bickering with Maggie Pole practically up to the end over the executed Teddy in the Tower and Richard Not Richard.  I am, however, getting a tremendous kick in this telling out of a scenery chewing Catherine going full predator on innocent if aged up Harry before poor drippy Arthur's body is even cold.  Sure, let's have them swordfighting as foreplay five minutes later.  While there's certainly an element of truth to her being largely caught between England and Spain squabbling over who should pay who over dowry and marriage settlements and her knowing that she would almost immediately be trotted back out on the European royalty marriage market,  they're really not even missing a beat here.  But it seems like the show is wanting us to take all the talk about the theocratic horror of the Inquisition going on in Spain and what that could mean for the "Moorish" members of Katherine's household and expecting us to be able to connect all the dots for a coherent motivation.

I really could have done without Margaret Beaufort going in for the full grope down the bodice to try to prove or disprove pregnancy as if she had any previous basis for comparison.

[Bill1978]

Firstly am I the only one who had no idea that the actress playing Margaret Tudor is Lucy from The Narnia movies??

I don't tune in for historical accuracy with adaptations of Gregory's work but this episode made my head spin with how quick Catherine moved on from Arthur. I often think series like these would benefit from a slight 3 months later caption or something. Cause the way it was presented I got the impression that Catherine was ready to jump Henry the day after her husband's funeral.

I know Arthur and Catherine weren't married for long but I feel this series rushed through the marriage as an inconvenience. I have no idea when in history this series plans to end, but surely we could have gone a little slower with marriage number one.

Never a fan when historical dramas make little jokes based upon the future and episode did it with Henry...oops I mean Harry gloating about his inability to put on weight despite eating everything in site. I am though enjoying see this part of Henry's life. Cinema/TV always enjoy jumping straight into The Great Matter so its easy to forget that Harry was a young prince before all that drama.

I'm still enjoying it (even with all the melodrama) and I am still enjoying hating Beaufort. I hope she has a rewarding death.

[Haleth]

Man, Maggie is one sad sack.  I'm sick of her "woe is me" face.

And Teddy is still dead.

[Darlin]

I watch this show to get my Tudor fix. I'm fascinated with all things Tudors and would like to know more about the Plantagenets.  I know this series is highly fictionalized, and I'm OK with that.  But this episode was my least favorite of the season (so far). Catherine acts as if she's entitled to the Queen of England title.  Harry-- I don't like him because I know what's coming, LOL.  Maggie Pole-- try as I might to like her and root for her, she should have just told Lady Mother of the King that she believed Catherine consummated her marriage to Arthur. It's obvious she didn't

Spoiler

so that the story could continue and have ramifications down the road.

But for someone who's been tormented by the Tudors since she was a child, she should have just protected her status and family and told the Lady Mother "her" truth and what she wanted to hear.

I like Lina but I'm tired of her running hot and cold with Oveido. Rosa is a dumb, love-struck teenager.

Spoiler

I googled that Stafford guy that she's in love with and I think I know where her story is going. He had 2-3 mistresses and a few kids out of wedlock.

I'm hoping we get to see Meg in Scotland. Meg is probably my favorite Tudor at the moment.

Lady Mother of the King has never been a likeable character for me in any of the Starz TV shows.  But I think I tolerate her a lot more in Spanish Princess than in the other TV shows. I think for me it's because of the actress.

[CarpeFelis]

7 hours ago, Darlin said:

Maggie Pole-- try as I might to like her and root for her, she should have just told Lady Mother of the King that she believed Catherine consummated her marriage to Arthur. It's obvious she didn't

  Hide contents

so that the story could continue and have ramifications down the road.

But for someone who's been tormented by the Tudors since she was a child, she should have just protected her status and family and told the Lady Mother "her" truth and what she wanted to hear.

THIS. Her not telling the Queen Mother what she wanted to hear made no sense to me given that she didn’t like Catherine and her own situation was somewhat precarious. Not to mention it was generally advantageous to give the royals what they wanted (or more accurately, disadvantageous not to).

[watcher1006]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:13 AM, Darlin said:

I watch this show to get my Tudor fix. I'm fascinated with all things Tudors and would like to know more about the Plantagenets.  I know this series is highly fictionalized, and I'm OK with that.  But this episode was my least favorite of the season (so far). Catherine acts as if she's entitled to the Queen of England title.  Harry-- I don't like him because I know what's coming, LOL.  Maggie Pole-- try as I might to like her and root for her, she should have just told Lady Mother of the King that she believed Catherine consummated her marriage to Arthur. It's obvious she didn't

  Hide contents

so that the story could continue and have ramifications down the road.

But for someone who's been tormented by the Tudors since she was a child, she should have just protected her status and family and told the Lady Mother "her" truth and what she wanted to hear.

I don't think Margaret Pole can love Catherine of Aragon because of what happened to Teddie but I don't think she hates her either. On the other hand I think she can hate the Lady Mother of the King for what the Tudors have done to her family. I could see her hating the mother more than the son if she thinks that it was the mother pulling the strings behind the scenes.  She would do well to steer a pragmatic course but she may not see telling the King's mother that Catherine is lying to be that course. M. Pole knows what ruthlessness the King's mother is capable of.

It was amusing how the Lady Mother of the King would only refer to Catherine as "that Spanish girl" in this episode.

However much Catherine wants to be Queen of England I can't see her immediately and totally rejecting her mother's command to return and burning her letter.

[theschnauzers]

STARZ has announced that the show is being renewed for an additional and final 8 episodes.

[Darlin]

30 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

STARZ has announced that the show is being renewed for an additional and final 8 episodes.

We're getting a 2nd installment of Catherine of Aragon? That's probably for the best because there is so much more story to tell and they are still in the very early stages of the Catherine/Henry VIII story.

[andromeda331]

I'm not sure I actually like any of the characters except maybe Lina and Princess Margaret. Its hard to feel sympathy for Maggie in the show when all she does is whine, cry and be depressed. Yes, I realize Teddy is still dead and that is horrible. But that's all she does. She had a way to probably get Margaret Beauford off her back and she chose not to take it. She had the chance to make up with Lizzie which may have given her Henry VII to help her or leave her alone. She chose not to take it. She said crap to Lizzie and was shocked how upset Henry VII was and blamed her for the death? She doesn't tell his mother what she knows which they both know the marriage was consummated then is shocked that she gets banished. I know she doesn't want to play the game but she's making really stupid moves that makes it hard to be sympathetic towards her.

I'm not sure I really like Catalina/Catherine at first I did like her countering Margaret's orders but I don't really like her scheming side either. Or her insisting that her mother wasn't responsible for the Inquisition. Given how strong her mother is and has been portrayed in the show, there's really no way to buy that Isabella isn't. Maybe its because knowing what's coming next its hard to side with her in her determination to marry Harry and telling Maggie she sees a different side. Its hard to tell if its love or she really is manipulating him and why. Because her mother told her she'd be Queen of England forever? What is her determination? Also just from what we see in the show why does she believe Harry? He wrote her love letters when she thought they were coming from Arthur. She was upset for a bit but then got over it? She never wondered why or if she should be suspicious of that? Her brother-in-law turning out to send her so many love letters and she doesn't question it? Or any of his behavior before hand. 

From what their showing of Harry I'm not sure why I'm suppose to be impressed. He's arrogant, and immature. Lashing out at Council and insulting his father all because he's having a tantrum over Catalina/Catherine. Way to be mature Harry. He doesn't see the problem with Edmund. I hate to have to side with Henry 7 and Margaret but yes he probably would kill him if it meant to get the throne that the Tudors stole. They aren't exactly wrong to be worried. It also never occurred to him that Catalina/Catherine could have motive when she flirted with him every since Arthur died? Its also hard to tell he didn't have one the whole time he was flirting with Catherine and sending her letters.  

Rosa's storyline was so predictable. I know she's suppose to be naïve, young and stupid. But really? She fools around and doesn't realize she's pregnant. She really thinks her married lover is going to give her everything she asks. That he's not going to abandoned her. 

I don't know if their going to follow Margaret's story in Scotland but that really is the only thing that I find interesting. I like Margaret so far in the story. I wondered if they were going to show James's illegitimate bastards and did have to laugh at 5 of them being introduced to her. Margaret took that well when in reality no she didn't and she didn't know anything about them until she got to Scotland. It was a big shock and she didn't take it well. 

I like hearing Henry VII talking about how much he loved his wife. That was nice. He admitted even if he married Catherine he'd still love Lizzie. I did like Catherine pointing out the flaws in their marriage. It is surprising that Henry VII never married anyone after Elizabeth, no matter how much he loved her, he was left with one male heir after losing his older son. You'd think he would have married to at least try for more heirs. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by andromeda331

[CountryGirl]

I was hoping for more than that quick shot of Princess Margaret meeting James in Scotland. I'm enjoying the show as a whole, but I'd really like to see more of her story.

[andromeda331]

22 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I was hoping for more than that quick shot of Princess Margaret meeting James in Scotland. I'm enjoying the show as a whole, but I'd really like to see more of her story.

So do I. I really like her and like the actress that plays her. Her story is one that doesn't really get told to often and it really is interesting. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by andromeda331

[vavera4ka]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

From what their showing of Harry I'm not sure why I'm suppose to be impressed. He's arrogant, and immature. Lashing out at Council and insulting his father all because he's having a tantrum over Catalina/Catherine. Way to be mature Harry. He doesn't see the problem with Edmund. I hate to have to side with Henry 7 and Margaret but yes he probably would kill him if it meant to get the throne that the Tudors stole. They aren't exactly wrong to be worried. It also never occurred to him that Catalina/Catherine could have motive when she flirted with him every since Arthur died? Its also hard to tell he didn't have one the whole time he was flirting with Catherine and sending her letters.  

Well, historically he's not supposed to ne mature... Yes they aged him a bit... for our times I guess. But here's the timeline.

1491 - Henry is born

1502 - Arthur dies

1509 -  Henry marries Catherine.

so "right now" he's about 11-12 years old.

[nodorothyparker]

MOD NOTE

I know it seems weird to treat history as a spoiler, but do not discuss events that have not happened in the show yet.  Events prior to or current to where the show is in the historical timeline are fine.  Posts that contain spoilers for future (to them) events have been and will be removed.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm still one episode behind because I keep forgetting this show is on.

I'm highly amused that this version of Margaret Beaufort can just unilaterally declare a regency for her adult son and not one person says a word about it or even attempts any pushback.  She hasn't gone full-scale Michelle Fairley serial killer in the Tudor court yet, but she's definitely ratcheting up in dramatically throwing everybody and their dog out of the castle.  Sure, Maggie Pole would have been better off just telling her whatever it is she clearly wants to hear, but I kind of loved her incredulous face at My Lady the King's Mother throwing her out too, like "Seriously, what on earth makes you even think I want hang around this nuthouse after you chopped poor Teddy in the Tower's head off?"  Given what we know about personal hygiene during this period in history and how Margaret Beaufort was snitting just a couple of episodes back about, gasp!, Catherine  wanting to bathe every day, I could only laugh at her telling sad sack Henry Senior hanging out with his sad lion to take a bath.

Catherine didn't do much this episode but sulk and act entitled, which I guess is fair as she is a princess who's just been chucked out on her ass but it's coming off fairly one note.  Her brief flashbacks of Isabella are again making me wish someone would figure out how to adapt her story.

The actress playing Lina has really lovely eyes, but Lina and Oveido seem stuck on an endless cycle of rinse and repeat.  I feel like I've watched the same conversation between the two a dozen times now.

[WatchrTina]

So I just got to the episode where the King finally ends his staring-in-the-fire-and-not-bathing form of grieving and moves on instead to the suddenly-announcing-he-is-going-to-marry-his-former-daughter-in-law form of grieving.

Wait, what?

I know we're supposed to treat history as a spoiler if that history occurred after the events depicted in the episode but . . . wait, WHAT?

Edited June 8, 2019 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

Finally caught up.  Good gods, Henry Senor, don't fall all over yourself patting yourself on the back for knowing how to "woo women" because you just told your former daughter-in-law you're now aiming to marry how much she resembles your dead wife.  Also, we saw the previous series.   A practiced wooer you aren't.

Of course Rosa's pregnant.  Who couldn't see that coming from a mile away?  Oh never mind that lovely puddle of vomit in the castle hallway.  I'm sure somebody will notice it and take care of it.  Love Lina not being able to ask around the castle for ye olde abortion doctor for fear of starting rumors but being able to sail right in to ye olde whorehouse as one of the only cast of color as if no one might remember that.   I'm sure all of this is going to work out just fine.

I do like how Queen Isabella is a constant presence in this even it does involve the occasional overwrought dream sequence.  Even if Catherine is just sure that she of the theocratic horror of the Inquisition "wouldn't do that" of all the terrible things Lina is trying to spell out for her would indeed happen to many of them if everything falls to shit and they all have to go back to Spain.  

So the zealotiest religious zealot Margaret Beaufort is helping procure whores for Henry as a distraction now?  Well okay then.  

The maudlin supposedly star-crossed Harry-Catherine romance is the least interesting thing about this episode.   It's tedious watching any of these people acting like love or notions of love had anything to do with royal marriages or that's why Henry Senior would decided to bow out of one.

[nodorothyparker]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

So I just got to the episode where the King finally ends his staring-in-the-fire-and-not-bathing form of grieving and moves on instead to the suddenly-announcing-he-is-going-to-marry-his-former-daughter-in-law form of grieving.

Wait, what?

I know we're supposed to treat history as a spoiler if that history occurred after the events depicted in the episode but . . . wait, WHAT?

That actually did happen, although history is silent on whether it had anything to do with sad Henry Senior hanging out with sad lions and not bathing.  Largely because of the dickering over the half of the dowry that Spain had already paid England for Catherine and Arthur's marriage.  England still expected to receive the other half because the marriage had taken place as stipulated and hey, it's not our fault that the prince inconveniently died.  Spain expected it all back because Catherine couldn't very well be queen of England to fulfill the terms of the alliance between the countries if she wasn't married to a king or eventual king.  So Henry Senior did propose marrying Catherine himself because it got around the whole canon law thing against marrying your brother's widow they keep mentioning and the fact that historical Henry Junior was only 10 or 11, I think, at the time.

[Bill1978]

11 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

So the zealotiest religious zealot Margaret Beaufort is helping procure whores for Henry as a distraction now?  Well okay then.  

Well she did go to her chapel straight after to cleanse her soul, so I'm sure God approved haha.

Just caught up on the last two episodes. I must say the previous episode was glorious for me because nearly everyone stuck up to the Almighty Pious Beaufort and called her out for her attitude but then this episode everyone decided to go back into letting her run the place. Is it too much to ask for some bricks to fall on her?

11 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Love Lina not being able to ask around the castle for ye olde abortion doctor for fear of starting rumors but being able to sail right in to ye olde whorehouse as one of the only cast of color as if no one might remember that.   I'm sure all of this is going to work out just fine.

I had the exact same thought, if Lina wanted to be discreet she should have set someone else, but I guess since this show has only given Catherine 2 ladies in waiting, it had to be Lina. I;m predicting that Rosa is sadly going to have an accident soon. Her man was far far too accepting and agreeable to the situation he has put her in. 

I found the 2nd episode not as engaging as it was full of people wandering around complaining about not being able to be with the person they love.

I;m still finding myself having Wikipedia open while watching this show just to confirm that the big plot points actually happened.

[WatchrTina]

18 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I'm predicting that Rosa is sadly going to have an accident soon. Her man was far far too accepting and agreeable to the situation he has put her in. 

Oh yeah.  She's doomed.  (And I say that assuming that she and her pregnancy are fictional aspects of the show so that's speculation, not a spoiler.)

18 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I'm still finding myself having Wikipedia open while watching this show just to confirm that the big plot points actually happened.

Ditto!  I had to pause several times to go read the entries about various people to re-acquaint myself with the whole convoluted story of the War of the Roses -- a War brought to an "end" by the marriage of the White and Red roses to form the House of Tudor.  It really is depressing to see (in this series) how the marriage of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York -- the marriage meant to end the war -- was unsuccessful in really bringing a lasting peace to the land.  I sort of love the notion that a curse laid down by Elizabeth Woodville all those years ago is still, inadvertently, acting on her own daughter and grandchildren.  That's a great fictional theory to explain all the tragedies that dogged the house of Tudor.  But . . . damn. Those Plantagenet descendants really just could NOT catch a break.

Edited June 10, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Haleth]

The War of the Roses was fueled by all those mothers who thought their sons were entitled to the throne. The women were the instigators for decades of bloodshed.

I don’t know if I could try to reconcile the actual history with the show, it would be too frustrating. 

[zoey1996]

I'm caught up for now.  

12 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I;m still finding myself having Wikipedia open while watching this show just to confirm that the big plot points actually happened.

I know, right?  But this inspired me to start reading Elizabeth of York by Alison Weir.  She's much more scholarly in her approach.

In some ways, marrying for position works out better than marrying for love, expecially when the love/attraction is one sided.  

I felt badly for Lady Pole, when Richard had the accident.  I knew it was coming, with the foreshadowing, but still it was a blow.

Everything I've read so far suggests that Catherine lied about not consummating her marriage to Arthur so she could marry Harry/Henry and still become Queen of England.  I think she has mixed motivations; she was attracted to Harry but also had her ambitions.  But Lady Grandmother should give anyone pause.  Strong-willed and not afraid to take the bull by the horns, as it were.

[KBrownie]

Ugh. 

I'm trying to stick with this show, but the "dun, dun dun!" surprise twist at the end of each episode is getting a little bit redundant, eh show?  You sit through the entire episode hoping for some progress and movement in the plot to be made by the end, but almost all the episode's work is wiped out by the twist at the end.  It happened before with King Henry's announcement that HE, not Harry would marry Catherine after Arthur died and then tonight with Joanna's announcement that she wouldn't pay the dowry after all and once again, Catherine's plans had been thwarted .

Speaking of Joanna, what a bitch.  But very well-played by the actress I thought.  The actress is beautiful and I loved her costuming.  The hair pieces and gowns especially.

And I know it wasn't in her best interest or the best interests of her children, but I LOVED Margaret Pole not giving Lady Grandmother the satisfaction.  I'm just happy to see someone letting her know that she's a terrible person and that she doesn't control them.  When does she die?  I'm so over her mustache twirling villainy.  

I'm hoping for some larger point to the Rosa stuff, otherwise it's utterly pointless and a waste of time.  There's no other connection to anything else going on.  

[andromeda331]

Joanna was a bitch and yet I rather enjoyed her. She was interesting compared to really everyone else. So many of the other parts are so boring. Catherine and Harry are already in love, Harry acts immature again, Lady Margaret plots, and Rosa had a miscarriage.  She yelled, tossed wine, and definitely not afraid to say whatever she wanted and was great at hammering out the deal to leave England. I wondered how she would be portrayed and was glad it wasn't the crazy woman that she was claimed to be. She wasn't wrong about her husband or father. I really wish the other characters were more interesting. 

I was surprised that Maggie didn't give in given how hard things got.    

[Bill1978]

7 hours ago, KBrownie said:

When does she die?

Spoiler

Spoiler

Young Harry has to become king before Beaufort kicks the bucket. Assuming they stick to history.

[Haleth]

I had a hard time feeling sorry for Maggie and her family.  Yeah, it's the only life they've known but the "Woe is me!  You are taking all our finery bought with the labor of our tenants.  Now we have to eat gruel" drama was kind of laughable.  Yeah, I know, it's not like she can go out and find a job, but she's too proud to give Margaret Beaufort what she wants.  Enjoy the gruel.

I'm surprised that Joanna really did visit England.

[rur]

It was too hot to work in the yard today, so I randomly watched a 2004 documentary on Amazon Prime, Britain's Real Monarch. Apparently there was some doubt about Edward IV's legitimacy due to reports of where the his father was nine months before his birth.  The program started with the premise that if Edward was not the rightful king of England, then what should the rightful succession have been? 

I'm putting their findings in spoilers, just because I don't know if it should go there or not, and I'd prefer to err on the side of caution. 

Spoiler

It turns out that our girl Maggie would have been Queen Margaret I, and that line would have continued through her. Interestingly, if  you  also watch BBC's Victoria,  you may remember Lady Flora, whom Victoria accused of being pregnant but who actually had cancer. She was a descendant of Maggie's as well.

[Darlin]

Does anyone know how many more episodes are left?  I feel like it's only 2 more, maybe 3. I kinda like this show in spite of its faults, but the pace . . . the pace.  Maybe I'm ready for the real drama to start, but that'll likely happen in Spanish Princess 2: The Later Years.

And I'm gonna take back what I said about this being my favorite incarnation of Margaret Beaufort. She has overstayed her welcome.  

[andromeda331]

28 minutes ago, Darlin said:

Does anyone know how many more episodes are left?  I feel like it's only 2 more, maybe 3. I kinda like this show in spite of its faults, but the pace . . . the pace.  Maybe I'm ready for the real drama to start, but that'll likely happen in Spanish Princess 2: The Later Years.

And I'm gonna take back what I said about this being my favorite incarnation of Margaret Beaufort. She has overstayed her welcome.  

I think that's where I am too. And why I enjoyed seeing Joanna. Stuff actually happened.  Nothing is really happening. They just really keep repeating things over and over. Its so boring. Catherine's in love and insists on marry Harry, Harry is in love and yells at his father, Margaret plots, Maggie's sad and for some reason keeps being shocked by how Margaret treats her and I really don't know what Henry VII is doing, waiting around to die? He's not really doing anything. He argues with Henry and sad, his mother runs his meetings, and pushed him to get Philip to turn Edmund over. Their not really developing anyone or explaining anything like why Catherine and Harry love each other. Why? Why is Maggie still shocked the Tudors will continue to be horrible to her. Seriously, Maggie, what in the your history with them has made you suggest they would be anything else? 

[LilWharveyGal]

21 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Speaking of Joanna, what a bitch.  But very well-played by the actress I thought.  The actress is beautiful and I loved her costuming.  The hair pieces and gowns especially.

Yes!  She made the British royals look positively dowdy.

For anybody interested in Joanna's story and a Philip the Handsome who actually, er, was, I recommend the film Juana La Loca.

42 minutes ago, Darlin said:

And I'm gonna take back what I said about this being my favorite incarnation of Margaret Beaufort. She has overstayed her welcome.  

Aww, I always enjoy Harriet Walter's performances, especially when she's playing someone detestable (Fanny Dashwood, anyone?).  

[NellieBly]

44 minutes ago, LilWharveyGal said:

Yes!  She made the British royals look positively dowdy.

For anybody interested in Joanna's story and a Philip the Handsome who actually, er, was, I recommend the film Juana La Loca.

Aww, I always enjoy Harriet Walter's performances, especially when she's playing someone detestable (Fanny Dashwood, anyone?).  

Yes! I love Harriet Waller and she deserves far better than the writing she's getting here. I want her to stick around because she's probably the best actor on the show. 

I'm watching this show as I re-read Antonia Fraser's biography on the Six Wives and some of the plot choices are driving me crazy. I think I'm still in it for it being at least somewhat based on my favorite period of history and to see which rumor one nobleman started 60 years later makes it to the show. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, LilWharveyGal said:

Yes!  She made the British royals look positively dowdy.

For anybody interested in Joanna's story and a Philip the Handsome who actually, er, was, I recommend the film Juana La Loca.

Aww, I always enjoy Harriet Walter's performances, especially when she's playing someone detestable (Fanny Dashwood, anyone?).  

I loved Juana La Loca! It was a great movie and it made me learn more about her. What happened to her was so awful.   

[theschnauzers]

There are a total of 8 episodes this season, and 8 more next season, whenever it is ready and STARZ schedules it.

[Haleth]

12 hours ago, LilWharveyGal said:

Aww, I always enjoy Harriet Walter's performances, especially when she's playing someone detestable (Fanny Dashwood, anyone?).  

Wow, I didn't recognize her.  My favorite scene in that movie is when she beat Lucy Steele with pheasant feathers.

13 hours ago, Darlin said:

Maybe I'm ready for the real drama to start,

I so agree.  The pacing is terrible, everything is so repetitive.  Let's move on to the meat, huh?

[nodorothyparker]

Yay for this latest episode giving us Joanna of Castile, aka Juana la Loca or Joanna the Mad.  The show for once even managed to stay fairly faithful to the known facts of that impromptu visit to England, down to the missing horseshoes.  It's of course impossible to know whether she truly suffered from mental illness much of her life or whether she was pushed into a lot of her erratic offputting behavior first by she of the Spanish Inquisition Queen Isabella and then her father, husband, and later even her son constantly trying to take her rightful throne, but it's true to the Philippa Gregory treatment of historical figures to assume it's more of the latter.  Philip the Handsome (which sorry, the actor is not) was definitely a right bastard to her and one of the time period's most prolific man whores, but you have to wonder just what this version of Joanna thought Catherine was going to do with her advice to never marry.  I mean, dynastic marriage was kind of the whole point of princesses.  It's not like she can trot on back to Spain and take up a trade.  She still has value on the royal marriage market to further Spanish alliances even if maybe not as a queen consort.

Again, the Harry-Catherine and Lina-Oveido romance scenes feel like they could have been cut and pasted in any random episode with the same result.  Nobody's getting married yet because nobody has any money yet.  Lots of dramatic pronouncements of "being in love" as if that was a big factor especially in royal marriages.  Rinse and repeat. 

A lot of Maggie Pole's story is lifted verbatim from The King's Curse, where she's more apparently written to have quite a lot of resentment about the Tudors' treatment of her as one of the last true Plantagenets.  I guess we're supposed to get that from her digging in her heels against Margaret Beaufort's demands even in the face of poverty and possible starvation, but both versions of her in these last two series have been so hangdog it's hard to see much beyond that. 

The show clearly wants me to be more invested in sad Rosa and her sad predictable oops pregnancy and miscarriage than I am.

[txvoodoo]

33 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Philip the Handsome (which sorry, the actor is not)

I always figure it's a relative handsomeness, as the Hapsburgs weren't full of pulchritude. 

[nodorothyparker]

True.  The few portraits of the man I've ever seen don't exactly sell "the Handsome" part of that either.  He's definitely a Hapsburg with all that implies.

[andromeda331]

22 minutes ago, txvoodoo said:

I always figure it's a relative handsomeness, as the Hapsburgs weren't full of pulchritude. 

14 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

True.  The few portraits of the man I've ever seen don't exactly sell "the Handsome" part of that either.  He's definitely a Hapsburg with all that implies.

LOL! That's probably true. Compared to the rest of his family, Philip's practically Adonis. 

[watcher1006]

The Hapsburg line suffered particularly from a long history of inbreeding, marriages with a high degree of consanguinity. Of course that generally occurred in the royal bloodlines of Europe and thus the genetic troubles which often made those bloodlines less than robust.