Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Sequel

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

It's that and CW wanting Arrow to have a female action character like the other DC shows. And then somewhere just possibly an honest difference of opinion where they like the character/actor and just want to use her.

Thing is how long will they try before they determine she's a fail? Maybe they will move onto Maya or Emiko next.

Because Dinah is pretty much a fail and I don't see her popularity picking up anytime soon.

It seems like the indifference/dislike towards Dinah is probably one of the few things fandom can agree on.

Or do you think she's someone's pet project and they'll keep pushing her, maybe stick her in another series when Arrow ends?

[way2interested]

23 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Thing is how long will they try before they determine she's a fail? Maybe they will move onto Maya or Emiko next.

Idk since we aren't privy to their numbers or data, but since it's an aging show with still relatively good ratings, I'm not sure if they necessarily see her as a fail over any other character not Oliver or Felicity (Rene's had way more complaints over the years and they continuously just reform his character rather than get rid of him). Heck, in 6b, the response (showing that it must have mattered, enough for MG to actually have to come out and comment on it and for them to switch showrunners) to the dislike over the civil war basically resulted in how they used the newbies (placing Curtis away from the main plots he has no connection with, having Rene being a support to others rather than antagonistic, having Dinah be connected to others' plots rather than having one on her own) rather than if they use the newbies. So it looks to me that ultimately TPTB whoever they are in the circumstance don't want to get rid of them for some reason or another.

What I find interesting is that it seems Beth's further call after changing how the newbies are used (regardless if people like the changes or not) is to introduce other characters in similar positions as they used the newbies (Emiko, adult William, and Maya, all who were auditioned to be major recurring roles with option for regulars next year or in SS's case, this year already) as possible pickups for the show post-Arrow/post-SA instead of relying on the newbies anymore. Rene and Dinah still being alive in the future could possibly just be them upholding the original structure of having the newbies carry on in the future but now having them as the adult figures while keeping the new characters as the focal point. Idk, that tells me that they are aware that there is some dislike towards the newbies and are trying to change things but one of those things won't/can't include getting rid of them.

[Primal Slayer]

I dont think they created the FF to accommodate time off since they have more then enough cast to tell stories in the present day. I think it is more of a crutch, one that we dont really need.

[way2interested]

I don't think it was the reason ("the" reason being that they wanted something new that would create buzz) but a reason, and the fact that they do have more than enough cast to tell stories already is why I partially wonder if the less than stellar reception of the newbies but no intention of removing them for personal/professional/contractual/etc. reasons is one of the reasons for introducing new characters and a new story in the first place.

[tv echo]

The linked instagram post has since been deleted (I'm assuming it's the same as what was posted on the previous page), but a fan preserved it....

It really does look like TPTB are setting up the pieces for an Arrow: Next Generation show. But, for me personally, if it turns out that Felicity really is dead in the flashforwards OR if Oliver is permanently killed in next year's crossover,* then I'll be so angry that I'll refuse to watch ANY of the Arrowverse shows any more. And I bet I won't be the only one.

(* Maybe it's the Whedon effect, but I don't understand why killing off major characters is considered a brave or daring move for a show to make. It just pisses me off. I don't care about the "realism" of the show or what other pretentious motives the showrunner might have, I get enough uncertainty in real life. I've already stopped watching The Walking Dead. I don't want to stop watching Arrow next season.)

Edited December 17, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Posting here because I don't think the show has identified her as Emiko yet...

SEA SHIMOOKA REACTS TO THE PREMIERE OF EMIKO QUEEN
Published on Dec 12, 2018, by Arrow

[way2interested]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

But, for me personally, if it turns out that Felicity really is dead in the flashforwards OR if Oliver is permanently killed in next year's crossover,* then I'll be so angry that I'll refuse to watch ANY of the Arrowverse shows any more. And I bet I won't be the only one.

Tbh, I can't see the show introducing their grown kid/kids, hypothetically bringing them to SDCC next year, hypothetically trying to frame a flash forward story narrative for the remainder of the show and then throwing away the option of all of the actors having a scene together.

[tv echo]

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty sure all DC shows were given a verbal renewal when Berlanti pitched this yearcs crossover. The fact that they used it to setup Crisis means they knew they had renewals in their pocket.  Plus, let's be honest Arrow/Flash are the bigger/biggest money makers for WB on the CW.  WB are going to keep them around for 10 seasons (or more look at SPN). Only way Arrow or Flash ends before S10 is if SA or GG call it quits and, I don't see SA doing it since all of his side projects are suffering financially (Nocking Point and HVFF).

[way2interested]

Yeah even the site where the rumor came from (also saying that Flash and Supergirl were also renewed) said insiders said that CW has no intention of ending any of the 3 series with their next seasons.

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah even the site where the rumor came from (also saying that Flash and Supergirl were also renewed) said insiders said that CW has no intention of ending any of the 3 series with their next seasons.

That still leaves my poor LoT in a precarious position.   I wonder if it gets cancelled at the odds of any of the characters moving over to one of the remaining shows.  

[way2interested]

20 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That still leaves my poor LoT in a precarious position.   I wonder if it gets cancelled at the odds of any of the characters moving over to one of the remaining shows.  

I think they are just waiting until later since it doesn't come back until April anyway. The problem I would have with that is that at this point they have their own series characters (Nate, Charlie/Amaya, Mona, Gary, Ava, Zari, to a lesser extent Constantine even though he was introduced on Arrow) that it would be pretty hard to put any of those characters into other shows, so I'd guess no more than just guest appearances.

[insomniadreams88]

28 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That still leaves my poor LoT in a precarious position.   I wonder if it gets cancelled at the odds of any of the characters moving over to one of the remaining shows.  

I feel like if LoT is cancelled, some people would expect Sara to return to Arrow, which just wouldn't work at this point.

[tv echo]

[JJ928]

Dinah looks real old in that pic. I mean, my mom is 62 and doesn't have half of those wrinkles, but I guess they need to over compensate to make it work. If DD is about JH's age, then she's 53 in the future. When/if we see future Felicity (I don't believe she's dead) she'd be 48/49, they better not age her like that lol.

[apinknightmare]

I love JH’s commitment to smoldering. 

[Morrigan2575]

59 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I think they are just waiting until later since it doesn't come back until April anyway. The problem I would have with that is that at this point they have their own series characters (Nate, Charlie/Amaya, Mona, Gary, Ava, Zari, to a lesser extent Constantine even though he was introduced on Arrow) that it would be pretty hard to put any of those characters into other shows, so I'd guess no more than just guest appearances.

Anyone know what happened to Wally? Did they drop him from LoT after dropping him from Flash?

Only reason I wonder is I've been thinking that alot the fear and panic from this fandom around SA leaving/Arrow Ending, Arrow not ending but going on without SA...meanwhile Flash actually introduced Barry Allen's replacement years ago (Wally West the comic successor and a very popular character). Not to mention introducing WA daughter and what's to stop them from bringing out Bart Allen?

I don't think anything will change with Arrow, Flash or even Supergirl any time soon (except the by the lead actor's choice) but, if any show was setup to spinoff/continue without the lead my money would be on Flash over Arrow.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Assuming Arrow goes on for a couple more seasons, what do you think they will do with the FFs? Continue you them till the end of the show or wrap them up this season?

Both options are a little weird to me. 

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Anyone know what happened to Wally? Did they drop him from LoT after dropping him from Flash?

KL left both shows kind of like how CH left back in s3 (with I'm guessing a similar open door to come back like CH did this year).

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Continue you them till the end of the show or wrap them up this season?

Beth said they would continue on to the rest of the series, IIRC.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Assuming Arrow goes on for a couple more seasons, what do you think they will do with the FFs? Continue you them till the end of the show or wrap them up this season?

Beth said the FFs are going to be a part of the show for the remainder of the series. 

[Chaser]

I missed that. I hope they cut Dinah. I can't imagine having to watch her in double time.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Chaser

[Primal Slayer]

I just wonder if they are going to up all these people to series regulars if we get a S8. They already can barely tell stories for majority of the characters they have now. 

[way2interested]

BL and KM are supposed to be upped to series regulars for s8 according to the original news for the characters "major recurring role for potential series regular deal for s8" or something like that, no idea for the other FF characters.

[Lady Calypso]

34 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I just wonder if they are going to up all these people to series regulars if we get a S8. They already can barely tell stories for majority of the characters they have now. 

It depends. They'll up the FF characters who will be important to the story going forward. BL will definitely be one of them (is he already a series regular? I can't remember on the top of my head.) If KM is going to be a daughter to one of the main characters (whether it's Oliver/Felicity or Roy/Thea), they could up her as a regular as well. Although I guess it also depends if KM gets other projects, as she is a semi-popular one in the TV world. I think they could keep the actress who plays Zoe and the actor who plays JJ as recurring, or they could also add them as series regulars. Them being upgraded is more to ensure that they are available when the show needs them. They could not be paid for the episodes they aren't credited in, as a compromise.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, JJ928 said:

Dinah looks real old in that pic. I mean, my mom is 62 and doesn't have half of those wrinkles, but I guess they need to over compensate to make it work. 

She is also suddenly really orange for some reason. Did her enemies trap her in a tanning bed? 

[jay741982]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

The fact that it looks like adult JJ is coming back and we have Adult William and Zoe in the Flashforwards just has to point to Maya being Olicitys child. It really does look like they are setting up Team Arrow with Oliver/Felicity /Diggle/Renes Children. Maybe the show can introduce a Second Dyla Child another Sara 

[Angel12d]

That pic made me LOL. Oh JH. Enough with the smoulder. 🙄😂

They seem to be filming a lot of FF so I’m assuming this is a FF episode? 

I can’t wait to not watch! 😂

[way2interested]

Oh, Beth

[Angel12d]

So many spoilers IDK how to control myself! 🙄😂

[apinknightmare]

I would understand the point of this if the episode titles were unknown until the episode airs, but they're released a couple months in advance. Why even bother? LOL

Edited December 18, 2018 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

51 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Oh, Beth

Gregory Smith directing.. hes has more good than bad Episodes yes?

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Gregory Smith directing.. hes has more good than bad Episodes yes?

I think some don't like him (can't remember why) but he's a favourite of mine. He did 604, some of last year's crossover eps which was really good. I don't find any of his other episodes offensive either. 

***

I think Beth has seen the memes of herself and is just having fun at this point🤣

[Morrigan2575]

28 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I would understand the point of this if the episode titles were unknown until the episode airs, but they're released a couple months in advance. Why even bother? LOL

More to the point if you're that worriwd about spoilers maybe don't use spoilery titles? LOL.

When MG did it you knew the title was super spoilery but, she does it for every script...I think she might be going over board 😁

[way2interested]

22 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I would understand the point of this if the episode titles were unknown until the episode airs, but they're released a couple months in advance. Why even bother? LOL

I can kind of get her reasoning if she's trying to follow the press release schedule. Like, we technically wouldn't know the 710 title until after the holidays and way after 708, so "My Name is Emiko Queen" works there, it just got leaked early. Hypothetically something in 710 might connect with the title of 713 or 713's title might connect with something in 711 that she wants connected then and not a month or two in advance (like 704's and 705's title) My question is why make spoilery titles and take that risk in the first place? XD

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I think some don't like him (can't remember why) but he's a favourite of mine.

Probably because he did 315 and 415, but literally every episode in the shows he did after 2016 I have liked or thought it was well directed, especially 415 of Flash which I thought was one of the best episodes of the series.

[Chaser]

I'm getting a little annoyed with Beth tbh. You need to feed your audience girl.

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I can kind of get her reasoning if she's trying to follow the press release schedule. Like, we technically wouldn't know the 710 title until after the holidays and way after 708, so "My Name is Emiko Queen" works there, it just got leaked early. Hypothetically something in 710 might connect with the title of 713 or 713's title might connect with something in 711 that she wants connected then and not a month or two in advance (like 704's and 705's title)

Maybe, but she's also covering up titles that aren't even spoilery. 

[JJ928]

Maybe the knife is a clue and this is the ep we see Stanley again. lol 

[KenyaJ]

12 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

Maybe the knife is a clue and this is the ep we see Stanley again. lol 

Oh please let this be the case. 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 I need my Stanley stalker drama.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, way2interested said:

I think they are just waiting until later since it doesn't come back until April anyway. The problem I would have with that is that at this point they have their own series characters (Nate, Charlie/Amaya, Mona, Gary, Ava, Zari, to a lesser extent Constantine even though he was introduced on Arrow) that it would be pretty hard to put any of those characters into other shows, so I'd guess no more than just guest appearances.

 

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Anyone know what happened to Wally? Did they drop him from LoT after dropping him from Flash?

Only reason I wonder is I've been thinking that alot the fear and panic from this fandom around SA leaving/Arrow Ending, Arrow not ending but going on without SA...meanwhile Flash actually introduced Barry Allen's replacement years ago (Wally West the comic successor and a very popular character). Not to mention introducing WA daughter and what's to stop them from bringing out Bart Allen?

I don't think anything will change with Arrow, Flash or even Supergirl any time soon (except the by the lead actor's choice) but, if any show was setup to spinoff/continue without the lead my money would be on Flash over Arrow.

I have a hard time imagining anyone on LoT back on Arrow permanently but I can imagine several being good fits for The Flash or Supergirl (if Supergirl moved to this universe) But I guess I'd prefer even if the show went off the air (and the reminder about the CW's need for an expanded line up gives me hope that that won't happen soon) to imagine them just still flying out there in time doing their thing.  

 I can't see how Arrow could hold an audience if it tried to flip to the FF full time so I don't think that's the intention but I really wish they'd not committed to the FF's at all.  I mean, the FB's barely worked past season two.  Committing to an even more complicated story crutch is disheartening.  I guess I take some comfort in them not insisting on having the FF's ALL the time.   It still causes all sorts of problems but at least they aren't pushing them when they have nothing to add to the episode.  

[Morrigan2575]

I don't really see much a difference between the Flashbacks and the Flash Forwards, they're both being used as Storytelling devices.

Flashbacks: Take Oliver from selfish playboy to hardened killer/vigilante

Present: Take Oliver from Vigilante to Hero

Flash Forwards: Take the characters (can't say Oliver since it's not centered on him) on some sort of journey that's too new to determine. Maybe the point is to take Oliver from Hero to Mentor/Obi Wan?

I don't think there's any intention to make Arrow all Flash Forwards or centered around 2040/TA jr. 

[apinknightmare]

The flashbacks featured a character whose journey we were pretty invested in (even if there wasn't much suspense to them since we knew Oliver lived), and the flash forwards feature a character who's had a mixed reception of late (and that's being generous), a petulant adult William, Zoey - who we barely know in present time, and Roy who we don't know much about anymore. And it's all centered around a pretty nonsensical premise, and slow as shit to reveal any kind of crumbs to follow to make sense of them at all. At this point what would make them most interesting would be giving us a trail to follow, but they won't even do that because either a) they're just really bad at telling stories, b) they're holding everything close to the vest to shock with a big twist, or c) all of the above. 

I'm going with C. 

[Mary0360]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

The flashbacks featured a character whose journey we were pretty invested in (even if there wasn't much suspense to them since we knew Oliver lived), and the flash forwards feature a character who's had a mixed reception of late (and that's being generous), a petulant adult William, Zoey - who we barely know in present time, and Roy who we don't know much about anymore. And it's all centered around a pretty nonsensical premise, and slow as shit to reveal any kind of crumbs to follow to make sense of them at all. At this point what would make them most interesting would be giving us a trail to follow, but they won't even do that because either a) they're just really bad at telling stories, b) they're holding everything close to the vest to shock with a big twist, or c) all of the above. 

I'm going with C. 

I'm going with A. C if I'm being generous.

 

An aside,

And seriously if the CW really wants Arrow to go to ten seasons think about how much repetitive, non sensical, random, illogical storylines we will get. I feel like they ran out of storylines in season 5, which incidentally was the five year storyline they'd initially built Olivers journey on. 

[Angel12d]

Flashbacks, although pretty terrible at times, at least made sense to me. I truly do not know the point of these flashforwards, especially featuring a ton of characters IDGAF about and having everything so dark and depressing.

I hate Dinah. I don’t care about Zoe. Roy doesn’t even feel like the Roy I used to like and he’s barely even present. William is petulant and shades Felicity all the time and I definitely don’t care about Maya now that I’m sure she isn’t Olicity’s daughter. There is no investment in any of these people. It’s truly fast forward material. I hate them. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Angel12d

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Flashbacks, although pretty terrible at times, at least made sense to me.

Yeah, at least the flashbacks were filling in gaps for a story we had kinda an outline for. The flash forwards are just throwing random "facts" at us that I'm not sure are telling an actual story or not or if a lot of what we're getting is meant to throw us off the scent of what really happened so we'll be surprised. 

[Angel12d]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, at least the flashbacks were filling in gaps for a story we had kinda an outline for. The flash forwards are just throwing random "facts" at us that I'm not sure are telling an actual story or not or if a lot of what we're getting is meant to throw us off the scent of what really happened so we'll be surprised. 

Yep. I guarantee nothing in the FF is gonna make much sense by the end of the season. It’s like they’re constantly trying to throw us off the scent by dragging out the mystery. Badly. 

It’s like...one episode Dinah refused to trust Oliver Queen’s son and then the next episode she said she did and then blathered on about how wonderful Oliver was. William hints that he was abandoned but also that he left. Everything feels contradictory. 

Issa mess! 🙄😂

[Morrigan2575]

23 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

The flashbacks featured a character whose journey we were pretty invested in (even if there wasn't much suspense to them since we knew Oliver lived), and the flash forwards feature a character who's had a mixed reception of late (and that's being generous), a petulant adult William, Zoey - who we barely know in present time, and Roy who we don't know much about anymore. And it's all centered around a pretty nonsensical premise, and slow as shit to reveal any kind of crumbs to follow to make sense of them at all. At this point what would make them most interesting would be giving us a trail to follow, but they won't even do that because either a) they're just really bad at telling stories, b) they're holding everything close to the vest to shock with a big twist, or c) all of the above. 

I'm going with C. 

Oh I can't argue with that. Flashbacks were useful (even if I felt they lost the story after S2) in developing Oliver's Character. The Flash Forwards are failing (for some/many/all?) because they're using new characters (Zoe, Black Star, William) a less than liked character Dinah and a character that hasn't been around for 3 years.

Idea wise I can see why they appeal. Going from Flashbacks to Flash Forward is an interesting concept.  As with everything Arrow related (good idea, crap execution) a few tweaks could make it better.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[insomniadreams88]

I feel like a problem with the FFs is we’re also not really getting much new information about the characters I care about. Every episode, they basically repeat that Felicity is totally evil and dead — but not why she “changed.” Oliver and Felicity left William and he’s right to hate them — but not when or why. They’re drawing out this stuff and it’s just annoying. 

And now the BTS photos just confirm we’re going to be getting more Dinah in the FFs. I feel like I should just expect Dinah to be all over the FFs from now on, and they’re apparently part of the series from now on. I’d like to hope they could kill her off in a FF, but I’m not counting on it. 

(This was more bitter than I expected it to be.)

[BkWurm1]

49 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't really see much a difference between the Flashbacks and the Flash Forwards, they're both being used as Storytelling devices.

Flashbacks: Take Oliver from selfish playboy to hardened killer/vigilante

Present: Take Oliver from Vigilante to Hero

Flash Forwards: Take the characters (can't say Oliver since it's not centered on him) on some sort of journey that's too new to determine. Maybe the point is to take Oliver from Hero to Mentor/Obi Wan?

I don't think there's any intention to make Arrow all Flash Forwards or centered around 2040/TA jr. 

I think the difference I see most starkly is that FF's should commit the show to a direction, it should tell us where the characters are going and if it doesn't, it means that the FF are really mostly nonsense meant to confuse and distract.   Instead of seeing roots of change from the past we either have the past be made pointless because it all goes to crap soon enough, or we see red herrings confirming the worst in the present only to end up being not they seem which will teach us to ignore the FF as just misinformation.  I've never skipped any part of the show, but I wonder how much more I would have enjoyed this season without the FF's there to bring me down and instill needless worry.  

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think the difference I see most starkly is that FF's should commit the show to a direction, it should tell us where the characters are going and if it doesn't, it means that the FF are really mostly nonsense meant to confuse and distract.   Instead of seeing roots of change from the past we either have the past be made pointless because it all goes to crap soon enough, or we see red herrings confirming the worst in the present only to end up being not they seem which will teach us to ignore the FF as just misinformation.  I've never skipped any part of the show, but I wonder how much more I would have enjoyed this season without the FF's there to bring me down and instill needless worry.  

I do agree with the purpose, but, I put that down to crap execution. When I said I didn't see a difference I meant in how the EPs are using them. They're not intended to BE the story. I don't see fearing that show going ALL FF because ultimately they're no different than the flashbacks, just a technique to further the main story (SA/Oliver).

I get all the complaints because the Writers decided everything in the future had to be a mystery. However, I do think it may be too early to tell what the Flash forward mean for the main characters...mostly because no one from OTA has shown up.

[kes0704]

I think I’d be just fine with the flash forwards and their bleak outlook if they were populated by characters I actually care about. The flash backs weren’t particularly compelling to watch after S2, but at least they had Oliver as the anchor point and I cared about his story. 

At this point in time, the flash forwards are populated by a bunch of characters I’m not invested in at all, they’re teasing the “death” or villainy of characters I am invested in and Dinah (my least favourite character, ever) is being used as the bridge between the present and future casts. 

If they’re going to be a feature of the show for the foreseeable future, I hope they figure out a way to make them more interesting, or at least speed up the drips of information they giving out, because at the moment I find them tiresome to get through.