Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Sequel

[Chaser]

24 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I’d assumed Laurel would only be in the gala scene in the photos, with everything else going on - Olicity, FFs, Oliver suiting up again, Dinah/assuming SCPD stuff from the promo, whatever (if anything) happens with the new GA, etc. 

She pops up at the end of the episode to snap Max’s neck. 

[apinknightmare]

20 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

What now? As much as I don't love the future that's been teased, the idea of multiple possible futures being presented is crazy. I don't want Arrow to be a "choose your own adventure" book.

"Possible future" seems to go against what Beth said about the whole thing, but maybe they're backing off from the fixed future thing now that they've gotten some feedback? Although if they still intend to keep the FFs up throughout the run of the show, teasing "possibilities" doesn't make any sense and would only serve to confuse people and get us involved and invested in a timeline that might never come to pass. 

[Morrigan2575]

21 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

What now? As much as I don't love the future that's been teased, the idea of multiple possible futures being presented is crazy. I don't want Arrow to be a "choose your own adventure" book.

That's the opposite of what Beth has been saying. So either Beth has been lying about a fixed timeline and DR revealed as spoiler (watch your back DR!)

Or DR is under a mistaken impression...or Beth gave DR bad info knowing he'd spoil it 😄

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Or DR is under a mistaken impression...or Beth gave DR bad info knowing he'd spoil it 😄

I'm actually going with this one (and would hilariously hope for the latter just for the lols as her revenge of the slip ups like 710's title and WH's return). Plus, literally none of the actors except sometimes SA usually fully understand how anything other time/other earth related works when asked, like thinking that the 2046 future back in s1 of LoT was the future period. 

[Mary0360]

It wouldn't be the first time they've gone in with a plan spoken about it and then changed it based on feedback. For instance the Black Lives Matter episode that never came to fruition. So hopefully they've changed their minds about the future being concrete, because I for one thinks it makes the show bleak AF.

[JJ928]

I'm just gonna sit here in my: I hope the future is nothing more than Future Oliver's dream, bubble. lol

[KenyaJ]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

"Possible future" seems to go against what Beth said about the whole thing, but maybe they're backing off from the fixed future thing now that they've gotten some feedback? Although if they still intend to keep the FFs up throughout the run of the show, teasing "possibilities" doesn't make any sense and would only serve to confuse people and get us involved and invested in a timeline that might never come to pass. 

It does go against what Beth says, but it seems similar to what JH said when all the journalists were on set: 

Quote

"The future we're seeing, in my mind, it's not the ultimate future, it's not necessarily the end, it's part of the future," she says. "So a lot of people are saying they're disheartened by how down and depraved our city has become, and they're saying, what's the point of it all if it's gonna be that dark? But we don't know that it's gonna end there." 

 Maybe that's what David was alluding to?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, KenyaJ said:

 Maybe that's what David was alluding to?

Oh yeah, maybe. Although I wouldn't call that a possible future, I'd refer to that as not being a definite end point. I mean, the city is definitely in this state in the future, it just can always get better. Maybe he just worded it badly. 

[jay741982]

24 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

It wouldn't be the first time they've gone in with a plan spoken about it and then changed it based on feedback. For instance the Black Lives Matter episode that never came to fruition. So hopefully they've changed their minds about the future being concrete, because I for one thinks it makes the show bleak AF.

I dont know, if Maya is their kid and she winds up being popular with the audience and If I personally like her, I won't want her to possibly be erased. #StillmadaboutBabySarah

[way2interested]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElisaQueen/status/1069399832538705921

Quote

Also, when I went to get an autograph, he mentioned that we'll see more OTA from episode 12 and on

Edited December 3, 2018 by way2interested

[bethy]

All this talk about showers and possible futures makes think: 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by bethy

[Chaser]

Maybe the artwork on the 150th is accurate.

[KenyaJ]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

All this talk about showers and possible futures makes think: 

 

If only! I'd love for Felicity to tell Oliver about the crazy dream she had that there were three other members of the team who were totally awful and useless.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

What now? As much as I don't love the future that's been teased, the idea of multiple possible futures being presented is crazy. I don't want Arrow to be a "choose your own adventure" book.

I saw another tweet that seemed to put this quote (or at least one very like it) in the context of him talking about Connor Hawk and his previous appearance on LoT in the future.  That future was only a possible future, where Diggle was dead and Oliver had one arm and Slade's son had taken over Star City.   But the circumstances where it happened (Sara never returned) have already been changed.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[SmallScreenDiva]

I’m not gonna be surprised if David misunderstood the flashforwards. I mean dude didn’t understand what was going on with the Dominators and called the alien brainwashing Digg’s dream world or perfect world. 

But I think it’s what @BkWurm1 said, i’ve seen the tweets implying that.

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I’m not gonna be surprised if David misunderstood the flashforwards. I mean dude didn’t understand what was going on with the Dominators and called the alien brainwashing Digg’s dream world or perfect world. 

But I think it’s what @BkWurm1 said, i’ve seen the tweets implying that.

I can't agree with this, DR was just parroting what Dig was saying on screen. From what I've observed, actors generally pull answers from scenes they filmed or a script they read. When DR said it at Cons or in interviews he was pulling from Arrow scenes and promoting a bullshit storyline which the show just ignored/tossed out on it's ass this season.

[KenyaJ]

Spoiler TV's advance preview of tomorrow night's episode: https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/12/arrow-unmasked-advance-preview.html?m=1

[Mellowyellow]

Gawd it sounds like way too much Dinah. Dammit why won't that witch die.

[insomniadreams88]

I need more present-day characters to show up in the FFs because now all I can think when I know a FF is coming up is, “more Dinah? Ugh.”

[Mellowyellow]

Where is my Olicity baby??????

I'm dreading Dinah's sour mug. 

[Chaser]

I’d like Roy and William to ditch Dinah when they find Maya.

That write up was so dull.

[bijoux]

Yup. I’m also touched by Oliver helping Dinah instead of the other way around.

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I saw another tweet that seemed to put this quote (or at least one very like it) in the context of him talking about Connor Hawk and his previous appearance on LoT in the future.  That future was only a possible future, where Diggle was dead and Oliver had one arm and Slade's son had taken over Star City.   But the circumstances where it happened (Sara never returned) have already been changed.  

That's how I took it, not that the FFs are a possible future but that LOT was which the Legends changed. I imagine they might bring back the same actor though. I remember DR has been invested in seeing Connor Hawke again in the future before the new FFs started (around the time the Baby Sara travesty happened maybe?). 

I think that write up is just being vague and non spoilery so no "interesting" stuff but yeah lots of Dinah so fail. Really hope this doesn't lead to Oliver and Dinah being "friends" though, they were barely work acquaintances before. 

[Velocity23]

This made me think that Old Diggle gonna warn present time Diggle about the future in the crossover

[lemotomato]

So I was at the panel and I thought I'd elaborate on some of the spoilery parts because tweets can't really convey how much David and Colton struggled to answer questions without answering questions. They were being really cagey about pretty much everything.  I didn't record video, just sound, so here are the transcriptions:

Moderator: Now that Oliver is out of jail, are we going to see a bit more of that bonding? Is it going to be back to OTA? 

David: Yeah, but not for a while. I mean, there are 22 episodes, a long long season. But yeah, that's the core. I think the show will ultimately get back that. But there's a lot of story to be told. Obviously, new characters. there's flashforwards, there's a lot of stuff. So it's a big story, a big arc. 

Fan: Are we going to see any present time Roy or William in this season of Arrow?

Colton: Um, yes, stay tuned? Maybe? Um, hopefully.

Fan: How is the relationship between Lyla and Diggle will be like now that Oliver is free?

David: That's a good question. Um, what can I say. Lyla and Diggle... you know, there is no foundry anymore, or the... whatever it was called. The lair. I'll give you a little spoiler, you're going to see it again, the lair. We're going to get back there. So ARGUS kind of works as the lair right now, everyone is in ARGUS. The relationship... there's only so much I can say because there's a lot they want to do with Lyla and Diggle that has a lot to do with Team Arrow and where we go with this arc, in this future arc. So ARGUS plays a big role in that. And I can't say more than that because I'll be giving a really big secret away in terms of Diggle's future. But speaking of Diggle's future, all I can say is this: there's a big tease about Diggle's future in the crossover.

Fan: will we see Diggle's son in the flashforwards?
David: I think you're going to see his son, Connor Hawke, I guess? I don't know if you're going to see him in the same way, because that was a possible future. So um... Flash just messed up everything. So um... yeah, I said it, Grant. 

Also, regarding OTA, when I went to get my OTA poster signed by David, he told me that we would see that again in 712 and later. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by lemotomato

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

Spoiler TV's advance preview of tomorrow night's episode: https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/12/arrow-unmasked-advance-preview.html?m=1

Quote

In the flash forward, William (Ben Lewis), Zoe (Andrea Sixtos), and Dinah follow the lead on Blackstar to somewhere they’ve been before – that looks totally different. There’s some fun stuff with the set – then and now – or now and then…. Time travel is so confusing! 

So, the bunker turned underground fighting ring?

Quote

You’ll always be the best part of me.

Oliver to William in the present day? I don't know if they can cram him returning from school into the episode, but a phone call?

Quote

Let’s hope you’re not rusty!

Obvously some idiot to Oliver. Because, yeah, a Supermax is a place where you'd go soft.

[JamieLynn832002]

14 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Quote

You’ll always be the best part of me.

Oliver to William in the present day? I don't know if they can cram him returning from school into the episode, but a phone call?

I was assuming Oliver to Felicity since it's very close to what he said to her at the wedding and with her recent "dark" turn she might need reassurance but William makes sense too.

[Mary0360]

I'm thinking "you'll always be the best part of me" might be Oliver to Felicity or vice versa since I'm assuming the crux of their storyline is about their moral lines.

 

Although maybe the thing Dinah shows William from Oliver in the future is a video he left to parallel Robert leaving Oliver a video.

[Guest]

That write-up didn't exactly make me want to watch the episode tbh, although I know they can't tease everything. But I really hate how Oliver is jumping right in to help Dinah out. I'm still so bitter over NTA getting away with everything they've done.  She doesn't deserve his help, even more so after her reluctance to help Felicity this season so far. It's gonna annoy me.

41 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Although maybe the thing Dinah shows William from Oliver in the future is a video he left to parallel Robert leaving Oliver a video.

I've thought for a while that we might be seeing future Oliver in some kind of video recording to parallel Robert/Oliver but why would he give that to Dinah, especially as she clearly still doesn't trust Oliver 20 years in the future? Kinda hope that's not what it is tbh.

Ugh all these Dinah mentions just reminds me we have to put up with her in the present and future and I'm still so pissed about that.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Guest

[Mellowyellow]

I did not want Oliver to leave Dinah anything! I find the Dinah and Oliver "friendship" even less compelling than the BS and Felicity "friendship" (yes taking into account BS has tried to kill Felicity).

Dinah was supposedly friends with Oliver and on his team before she turned on him. At least when BS hasn't tried to kill Felicity after they became acquaintances.

Go the F away Dinah! Why is this woman everywhere? They write her to be a terrible person and we're supposed to buy that she's some sort of by the book moral compass? 

[Mary0360]

40 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

Go the F away Dinah! Why is this woman everywhere? They write her to be a terrible person and we're supposed to buy that she's some sort of by the book moral compass? 

Because she's Black Canary and they feel need to shoe horn her in regardless of if she makes sense in the story. 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Let’s hope you’re not rusty!

Isnt that Dinah? Pretty sure she said that in the promo.

[Trisha]

Quote

Oliver and Rene work together to help Dinah. Felicity does something that shocks Oliver. There’s a great, classic Oliver/Diggle (David Ramsey) scene.

I wonder if Felicity does something that shocks Oliver in this episode, or if they’re just re-hashing what happened with Diaz and he’s shocked by her attitude? (I’m really, really hoping it’s that and not her advocating for keeping William away.) In any case, I’m guessing “This is me because of you” is Felicity to Oliver.

A “classic” O/D scene sounds like bonding. I wish it was “why did you leave my wife fighting on her own when I was in jail?”

If the opening is an intense workout on rings, that’s got to be Oliver, right? Maybe the shower isn’t the first we see of him.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Trisha

[Mellowyellow]

I am honestly never shocked by Felicity. I admire her and cheer her on but I'm never shocked! She's a very practical girl! 

Do the men in her life think she's a golden haired fairy on a pedestal or something? It's so weird! 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I wonder if Felicity does something that shocks Oliver in this episode, or if they’re just re-hashing what happened with Diaz and he’s shocked by her attitude? (I’m really, really it’s that and not her advocating for keeping William away.) In any case, I’m guessing “This is me because of you” is Felicity to Oliver.

I think it'll be something somewhat "over-the-line" that makes Oliver believe/bring up the Black Siren and Diaz things that he previously didn't believe were true. 

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, Trisha said:

A “classic” O/D scene sounds like bonding. I wish it was “why did you leave my wife fighting on her own when I was in jail?”

Honestly, if we get this, I'll be SHOCKED. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I am honestly never shocked by Felicity. I admire her and cheer her on but I'm never shocked! She's a very practical girl! 

Do the men in her life think she's a golden haired fairy on a pedestal or something? It's so weird! 

I think it happens more often with Felicity since they're always painting her as the good/light, etc, even though she's always been floating out there in the grey, but it's one of those Arrow things where we need to have people shocked by someone's behavior for plot, even though said person has done/approved of similar things in the past without anyone complaining.  

[Guest]

I think the way everyone is reacting to Felicity going "dark" is gonna piss me off more and more because I truly don't think she's been that bad. Oh no! She pointed a gun at Diaz, the villain trying to murder her and her son. How dare she! Oh no! She put Anatoly's life at risk when he's also been a bad guy most of the time. She's so evil! 🙄

And Oliver being shocked at whatever she does feels a little insulting considering she's always been in the grey and knows when things need to be done. 

I'm also gonna be a little annoyed if she ends up having to defend herself and we don't get anything from Oliver about being the one who made the unilateral decision that put them all in this mess. 

[Mellowyellow]

I want Felicity to be able to say her piece to Oliver and for him to back down, acknowledge she did what she needed to do in his Felicity voice and then they make out like crazy!!!

7 eps of jail and goodness knows how many seasons of nonsense! Give me this you stupid show! 

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I think the way everyone is reacting to Felicity going "dark" is gonna piss me off more and more because I truly don't think she's been that bad. Oh no! She pointed a gun at Diaz, the villain trying to murder her and her son. How dare she! Oh no! She put Anatoly's life at risk when he's also been a bad guy most of the time. She's so evil! 🙄

And Oliver being shocked at whatever she does feels a little insulting considering she's always been in the grey and knows when things need to be done. 

I'm also gonna be a little annoyed if she ends up having to defend herself and we don't get anything from Oliver about being the one who made the unilateral decision that put them all in this mess. 

THIS. Everyone else can do things that are "dark" or at least in the grey, and it's okay. Felicity does it (and not for the first time) and suddenly Diggle is going, "you might not come out of this a hero." WTF. Ugh, I just hope Oliver says he understands what she had to do. I worry that they're going to ignore the fact that no one was helping Felicity to paint her actions as "OMG so dark" without any context, especially right now since they're all, "Felicity's totally evil (and dead)" in the future right now. 

[way2interested]

The thing is she was arguably doing things that the show/Felicity has been calling out Oliver for years (working with less than trustworthy people, trying to kill people even though they are bad out of a sense of vengeance or justice instead of defense, torture, etc.), so I think Oliver has a reason to question her about it. And just like the show in the past, Felicity has some justification on it without painting her as evil just like she and Diggle have told Oliver throughout the years.

Obviously this doesn't mean that Felicity shouldn't or won't call out Oliver, but they both have things to call out on the other.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, way2interested said:

The thing is she was arguably doing things that the show/Felicity has been calling out Oliver for years (working with less than trustworthy people, trying to kill people even though they are bad out of a sense of vengeance or justice instead of defense, torture, etc.), so I think Oliver has a reason to question her about it. And just like the show in the past, Felicity has some justification on it without painting her as evil just like she and Diggle have told Oliver throughout the years.

Obviously this doesn't mean that Felicity shouldn't or won't call out Oliver, but they both have things to call out on the other.

The difference is Oliver wasn't abandoned by every single person/friend on his team like Felicity was. So the situations feel a little different. He always had Diggle and Felicity by his side. Felicity had no one and ended up being forced to turn to BS, of all people. 

I'm all for them talking things through and acknowledging that Felicity has done things but calling her out on it feels a little harsh to me. I hope there's some give and take on both sides and an acknowledgment that the situation she was in was drastic and called for drastic measures sometimes.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Guest

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

The difference is Oliver wasn't abandoned by every single person/friend on his team like Felicity was. So the situations feel a little different. He always had Diggle and Felicity by his side. Felicity had no one and ended up being forced to turn to BS, of all people. 

I'm all for them talking things through and acknowledging that Felicity has done things but calling her out on it feels a little harsh to me. I hope there's some give and take on both sides and an acknowledgment that the situation she was in was drastic and called for drastic measures sometimes.

For sure, the execution was definitely not the best, because the whole point of this arc seems to be "circumstances pushed Felicity to make the same bad choices that Oliver was called out on," and the writers decided that those circumstances included Felicity being alone in the situation. The outcome, Felicity making the same choices Oliver usually does, is what I think will likely get focused on and, like Oliver in the entire series, will get relatively justified by the idea that the situations caused it and that they can ultimately move on and be better next time, probably promising never to separate like that again, etc. 

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

 

Although maybe the thing Dinah shows William from Oliver in the future is a video he left to parallel Robert leaving Oliver a video.

I'm hoping it's her scar and Oliver is responsible for taking away her screech. 

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Isnt that Dinah? Pretty sure she said that in the promo.

Quite possible. I honestly already forgot what she was saying aparat from it being annoying. But then, yes, an asshole. 

51 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I wonder if Felicity does something that shocks Oliver in this episode, or if they’re just re-hashing what happened with Diaz and he’s shocked by her attitude? (I’m really, really hoping it’s that and not her advocating for keeping William away.) In any case, I’m guessing “This is me because of you” is Felicity to Oliver.

I'm banking on that during their confrontation as well. Although I feel the need to point out that NTA and RoboDig should be included in that statement as well. 

[Trisha]

27 minutes ago, way2interested said:

The thing is she was arguably doing things that the show/Felicity has been calling out Oliver for years (working with less than trustworthy people, trying to kill people even though they are bad out of a sense of vengeance or justice instead of defense, torture, etc.), so I think Oliver has a reason to question her about it. And just like the show in the past, Felicity has some justification on it without painting her as evil just like she and Diggle have told Oliver throughout the years.

I actually liked the way that they handled it with Helix, with Oliver acknowledging that calling her out is hypocritical because of all he’s done, but doing it anyway because he wanted to protect her from the darkness he’s suffered and because she’s always urged him to find another way — so if they frame it like that, I’m not as concerned about him wanting to talk about it. Also, given Beth’s early comments that Oliver’s decision to go to jail without consulting Felicity is going to come up, I think he’s not going to have a lot of high ground here. As long as the conversation is balanced and he’s coming at it from a place of concern, not accusations, it could be good. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, way2interested said:

For sure, the execution was definitely not the best, because the whole point of this arc seems to be "circumstances pushed Felicity to make the same bad choices that Oliver was called out on," and the writers decided that those circumstances included Felicity being alone in the situation. The outcome, Felicity making the same choices Oliver usually does, is what I think will likely get focused on and, like Oliver in the entire series, will get relatively justified by the idea that the situations caused it and that they can ultimately move on and be better next time, probably promising never to separate like that again, etc. 

IDK. Right now it feels like yet another convoluted way of putting Felicity in Oliver's shoes so she's the one who understands and he doesn't have to apologize, just like 520 where she ended up apologizing when he was the one who lied about William. I really hope I'm wrong and we just don't know all the detail yet. Not long until we find out!

Just now, Trisha said:

Also, given Beth’s early comments that Oliver’s decision to go to jail without consulting Felicity is going to come up, I think he’s not going to have a lot of high ground here. As long as the conversation is balanced and he’s coming at it from a place of concern, not accusations, it could be good. 

This is all I ask for. Balance.

[way2interested]

I can't see how there wouldn't be balance, since they both did things objectively (regardless of circumstances) bad/wrong, so I think it'll at least be a good scene from the heart and not necessarily out of anger (minus any potentially emotional viewing of what's happening)

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

The difference is Oliver wasn't abandoned by every single person/friend on his team like Felicity was. So the situations feel a little different. He always had Diggle and Felicity by his side. Felicity had no one and ended up being forced to turn to BS, of all people. 

I'm all for them talking things through and acknowledging that Felicity has done things but calling her out on it feels a little harsh to me. I hope there's some give and take on both sides and an acknowledgment that the situation she was in was drastic and called for drastic measures sometimes.

 

Felicity has done NOTHING that Oliver, Diggle, Rene, and Dinah haven't done multiple times before without as much fanfare or much questioning. They way they are framing her actions is patronising and kinda sexist. This is basically the writers lazy way to create manufactured drama.

If they wanted to make this a proper arch for Felicity instead of making the story about Felicity does x and y lets all have the other characters judge her and worry about how her choices will affect her immortal soul and pigeon hole her into the good/light character, why not focus on Felicitys feelings about her own actions and her trying to balance or struggle with what she knows is morally right vs what she knows needs to be done. I look at a character like Elizabeth Jennings on The Americans who is written as someone who doesn't apologise for her actions but also feels the toll they take. 

Felicity has been determined, effective, result driven, competent and unafraid to make choices that the others were too lazy, unwilling or incapable of making. If it was Diggle that was making Felicity choices, I garuntee that it would have been treated like Diggle was the strong leader and hero and Felicity would have been supporting him every step of the way. I mean even Lyla, who is portrayed as competent and effective at her job despite making tough choices is often in the writing talked down to by Diggle or other characters. 

I take comfort that Stephen says that they get over their fight quickly I just hope that it isn't something that keeps coming up every time Felicity does something morally grey.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Mary0360

[KenyaJ]

1 hour ago, Mary0360 said:

Felicity has been determined, effective, result driven, competent and unafraid to make choices that the others were too lazy, unwilling or incapable of making.

Amen! I know why everyone around her has to act surprised about it, but all of them should know this about her by now. Sacrificing herself to stop Slade, drugging Oliver to get him away from R'as, diverting a nuke to a less populated area, doing whatever it took to find Chase, turning her own father into the authorities. And that's not even an exhaustive list of hard, calculated choices Felicity has made. Going after Diaz the way she did is pretty much the most Felicity thing ever. I'm just glad she's going to stand by her decisions and own them, something that a lot of the characters on this show should learn how to do. It won't bother me if Oliver is concerned about her. As a good husband he should be. But he should also (1) acknowledge the impact of his decisions on her decisions and (2) trust her judgment to know where the line is and to be able to pull herself back from the line. Based on Stephen's comments about this episode, I'm hoping for something along these lines, but bracing myself in case things go off the rails, because it's not my first Arrow rodeo.

 

It's kind of hard not to be excited when I see things like this, though. It's pretty rare for critics to rewatch episodes, and unheard for them to rewatch episodes of Arrow.

[Trisha]

Love this: