Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[apinknightmare]

Plus, not only could they not sell Lauriver the first time, but Oliver and Felicity was born out of the failure of that ship. Trying to resurrect it after they've already given the audience a taste of the popular ship, the one that generates TONS of buzz for the show? Good lord that would be INSANITY.

Edited October 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Exactly. And if they were so desperate to return to O/L then they wouldn't have gone full force with Olicity this season. They could have just continued the Olicity status quo of s1 and s2 and had O/L re-establish their bond/love after the death of Sara. But they pretty much reformatted the romance on the show. They even had Oliver say there was something about Felicity from the moment he met her. He remembered the color of her damn pen. He looked at her longingly with Digg's baby as if that's the life he wants with her. That's a pretty big thing to do for a couple that's not for the long term. 

 

The EP's are already being incredibly risky by making Laurel BC. They would be crazy stupid if they made Lauriver a thing again as well. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by Guest

[statsgirl]

I desperately hope that they're just trying to cash in on the popularity of Olicity and get Laurel to ride that but then I really believed they wouldn't actually kill Sara.

Since the EPs can't rein KC in with her interview answers, they can't make her act as Laurel and not as KC (psychotic grins), and even when she is acting as Laurel, she's playing it in her own weird head canon way, this is a spectacular disaster waiting to happen. 

One day, I'd like to know why that is, that they can't rein her in.  Aren't they supposed to be the boss of her?

 

As for KC being happy, I know she sprouts that soulmate crap too often but I think her excitement for this season is purely becoming BC and finally being involved in the A storylines, being in the lair with Team Arrow. It makes her the centre of attention. She's spoken many times about wanting to get involved in the action and the fight scenes or whatever so I think it's largely to do with that. Or maybe I'm just deluding myself. 

She does love being the centre of attention.  Now if she could only think of something new to say in interviews.

Edited October 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[AnyoneButYou]

Well, Original Team Arrow is probably the most popular aspect of the show - maybe even more popular than Olicity, and they've inserted Roy and now Laurel. Roy never bothered me too much because he seems to blend into the background, but Laurel is barking orders at people. Original Team Arrow seemed all but dead to me in the first two episodes, and based on the spoilers for the next few episodes, Original Team Arrow seems like a distant memory.

 

Maybe I'm just bitter because while the Olicity was nice in the premiere, I knew it wasn't going to last. The last episode was such a shitfest with Laurel basically on the road to single, white female-ing Sara that I don't have any faith that the producers won't try to ruin what is really the only thing that I even like on the show anymore. I just feel like if the Laurel and Oliver friendship gets people talking the way Felicity and Oliver did, the producers will be more than happy to go the comic route. They'd probably rejoice.

[Menrva]

All of this has now cemented my belief that Katie Cassidy is the Lina Lamont of Arrow.

 

(It's a reference to Singin' In The Rain, so I apologize for the musical theater reference but for those who have seen it, you will understand. And I'm too old and too busy to figure out how to attach a gif or clip, so my apologies.)

[apinknightmare]

What is this worry based on? We've had one ep where Oliver rightly comforted her, and where she was the focus because her sister just died. Is it because she's in the foundry in the promo pics that were released for episode 4, when Felicity is in Central City? Laurel becoming BC was always in the plan, and regardless of the status of the ship, Laurel was never going to become some nobody in Oliver's life - it's not surprising to me at all that they're going to be closer, be friends. Would it surprise me if Oliver and Laurel eventually got back together? Nah, not one bit. Do I think it's headed in that direction right now? Nah, not one bit.

Edited October 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Are we so sure there's going to be an L/O friendship? MG said that 302 was going to show their amazing bond and how they're the closest they've ever been and I didn't see that at all. There is such a disconnect between EP intent and what is shown on screen it's ridiculous. 

 

I know there's supposedly a scene in 306(?)

where Laurel says "we used to date"

but that's pretty much the only scene I've heard of. The rest of the time I think Laurel is going to be with Quentin or Ted. 

 

Ugh, I'm bitter that I even have to worry about this crap.

[NumberCruncher]

Maybe I'm just bitter because while the Olicity was nice in the premiere, I knew it wasn't going to last. The last episode was such a shitfest with Laurel basically on the road to single, white female-ing Sara that I don't have any faith that the producers won't try to ruin what is really the only thing that I even like on the show anymore. I just feel like if the Laurel and Oliver friendship gets people talking the way Felicity and Oliver did, the producers will be more than happy to go the comic route. They'd probably rejoice.

But see, they already tried the friendship scenes last season. I remember all the chummy conversations they had at Verdant and the big pep talk Laurel gave Oliver about fighting Slade? The only thing they ended up proving was they were awkward/forced and just. don't. work. The chemistry is either there or it isn't--the scenes didn't even have to be romantic. I guess I don't see how the fans (or the producers) are suddenly going to change their minds now.

[wonderwall]

apparently this isn't appropriate so I'm bringing this back to the relationships thread. 

 

GOD THIS IS SO CONFUSING. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

What is this worry based on?

Maybe KC's continued insistence that Laurel and Oliver are "soulmates"? *shrugs* Because it seems like at this point there's two options. She's completely delusional, or she knows something we don't.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[AnyoneButYou]

Maybe KC's continued insistence that Laurel and Oliver are "soulmates"? *shrugs* Because it seems like at this point there's two options. She's completely delusional, or she knows something we don't.

 

Pretty much this. Plus, Lauriver was probably always in the plan in the beginning, too.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe KC's continued insistence that Laurel and Oliver are "soulmates"? *shrugs* Because it seems like at this point there's two options. She's completely delusional, or she knows something we don't.

 

I'm not sure delusional is the right word, but I think KC's hopeful to regain her spot as the lead's love interest. But if there's anyone in the cast who knows what the long-term plan is, it's SA, and I don't think he'd go around saying things like he thought the ship had sailed on L/O if that wasn't rooted in somewhat firm information. Like I wrote above, I don't think L/O are completely out of the picture, but I think KC is wishful thinking rather than speaking from a fact-based place.

[NumberCruncher]

Maybe KC's continued insistence that Laurel and Oliver are "soulmates"? *shrugs* Because it seems like at this point there's two options. She's completely delusional, or she knows something we don't.

I'm going to lean towards door #1. This is, after all, the woman who looked at Geoff Johns and asked him if he read his own comics.

[MostlyC]

Just a friendly reminder that this is the bitterness thread.  Be Bitter, but if you begin to find yourself discussing the relationships and or characters more than your bitterness, then please take your posts to the appropriate thread.

[Morrigan2575]

And she knows more then SA? The star of the show? I find it hard to believe that the EPs are telling SA that it's OK for SA to say Lauiver and Saiver ships have sailed, at SDCC only to have him look like a giant tool. What about all the other actors and even EPs?

With Lauiver you have one actress saying OTP, everyone else including GG and BR are talking about Olicity. It seems to me there is a specific romance talking point for the show and that is Olicity. The only person not on the same page is KC. So unless you honestly believe that the EPs will tell KC more than SA or that she is more important to the show than SA, I think the answer is kind of obvious.

And she knows more then SA? The star of the show? I find it hard to believe that the EPs are telling SA that it's OK for SA to say Lauiver and Saiver ships have sailed, at SDCC only to have him look like a giant tool. What about all the other actors and even EPs?

With Lauiver you have one actress saying OTP, everyone else including GG and BR are talking about Olicity. It seems to me there is a specific romance talking point for the show and that is Olicity. The only person not on the same page is KC. So unless you honestly believe that the EPs will tell KC more than SA or that she is more important to the show than SA, I think the answer is kind of obvious.

PS I'm very bitter that crap like this has become the norm in this fandom. The absolute fear that the EPs will destroy their own show for one character/actress. This bitterness is brought on by the EPs not anyone in fandom.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

That is such a depressing thought and I hate everything.

[statsgirl]

These guys have shown that they are not interested in deviating from their plans for Laurel, no matter how badly they've worked out so far, and no matter how badly the writers and the actress have botched the things they've tried to do. I imagine Katie Cassidy is relying on that when she talks about how Oliver and Laurel will end up together, and it seems like she has a fair amount of precedent to fall back on.

 

They all know that Oliver and Felicity have much better chemistry, have a much better connection, and is far more accepted as a pairing by fans and media outlets. But then they also knew that Sara made a better vigilante, and was accepted more by fans and the media. Didn't change a damned thing. She's still dead, and it sounds like they're trying to erase her very existence. They're going to try and push Oliver/Laurel again, and if they get the slightest bit of purchase (such as fans saying they like Felicity with 50 Shades), I think they'll dig right in and say, 'okay, we know we're on the right track'.

This is what worries me, that for some reason, even when Laurel isn't working, no, especially when Laurel isn't working, their solution is to stick to The Plan even harder.  If the audience doesn't like Laurel, it's because she's not in fishnet stockings yet.  If they prefer Olicity, it's because Laurel hasn't had a chance to be Oliver's support yet because she didn't know his secret.  All anti-Laurel feeling is temporary and circumstantial.  They can even call Laurel Oliver's blind spot, not realizing it's theirs too.

 

If we find at the end of season 3 Laurel is gone, then I'll take it back.

[Password]

I don't think Laurel and Oliver will be together again. It's very convenient that with Felicity spending more time with Ray that Laurel will probably build a better relationship with Oliver (goodness knows why), but I don't think they'll go there again. The premiere pretty much pointed us in the direction the show is going in regards to which relationship they want to work out, and Lauriver was not it. I think the soul mates thing is genuinely KC's opinion and that is fine, that's why no one else is saying it. If they take a turn for the Lauriver again, I'd probably already be out because at that point everything would be in a state of chaos.

[quarks]

I'm going to go completely out on a limb here and suggest it's because they want to make sure that Roy AUUGH RAY -- 

 

pause

 

I AM DEEPLY BITTER ABOUT THE NAME ISSUES ON THIS SHOW WITH ROY AND RAY.

 

end pause

 

I'm going to take this over to the Relationships thread since although I'm bitter about the job choice for Felicity, I'm actually optimistic about what this means long term.

 

The bitterness about the name thing can stay right here though. 

[tv echo]

I'm bitter now because the EPs used a great character like Sara just as a plot device for the 'journey' of a weak character like Laurel.  I'll be even more bitter if they use a great character like Felicity to restore Oliver's humanity and then turn Oliver over to Laurel.

 

I'm with those who think the EPs are going to wait and see how the 'new' Laurel resonates with fans this season, and also how the Ray-Felicity relationship resonates with fans this season, before charting the course for Seasons 4 and 5.

[apinknightmare]

Regarding Oliver/Laurel, this is just my opinion, but I continue to find it hard to believe that the EPs would put Oliver/Arrow in a romantic relationship with the fake Canary (a character they obviously didn't have much love for), but not with the real one. Not even briefly. I'll only believe that when the show is over and there was never a real Green Arrow/Black Canary romantic pairing of any kind.

 

See, I think that's one of the reasons why they put Oliver with Sara (apart from slowing down the Olicity train) - so they could check off the Arrow/Canary romance since they probably realized that Lauriver 2.0 wasn't going to fly.

[Axel]

 

 

Making Laurel and Oliver friends and spending time together is where the whole shipping thing starts. Look at Felicity and Oliver. Look at a lot of television pairings. A lot of them were borne from friendships. They're pimping out the Olicity because that's where their bread and butter is, but I think the producers are trying to test the Lauriver ship on the sly. I don't think Lauriver will be making out or jumping into bed together, but if it looks like SA and KC are developing even a modicum of chemistry, Lauriver might actually be a thing again. Everything is pointing to it, in my opinion. Killing Sara was was just as much about getting Laurel on the path to becoming Black Canary as it was about getting Laurel and Oliver back together. Everyone may have been promoting Olicity, but where is Felicity going to be during all of this? Babysitting Ray.

Hopefully, I'm wrong, but KC's been way too happy this season for me to believe that Lauriver isn't still a possibility soon considering the romance aspect seems to be such a huge thing for her. Maybe even bigger than being BC, in my opinion.

 

 

Well, that's the point. The prod know they have not a single chance to get O/L endgame on a channel like the CW, on the other hand, they are obviously convinced that O/L is epic and the writing for Laurel is amazing, and the only reason the audience can't see that is because Olicity fans who want off anyone potentially coming between O and F. So for this season, they decided to establish Felicity as the "love interest" in the Premiere while turning Laurel into the platonic BF/partner/warrior ( a mix of Felicity and Sara), hoping her arc would be better welcomed like that once olicity get some romance parts. And so after a while, once Laurel is more liked, they could get an opening for another round of O/L. They didn't even need for O/L to have any kind of "chemistry" to push them, just for Laurel and every Laurel/Oliver interactions not to be so badly commented. Sounds like a flop for now. They probably didn't expect how badly Sara's death would be received

[Kymmi]

I'm so bitter about this whole season.  It was said that Oliver was going to smile more this season - it would be lighter.  Did I make all of this up???  The end of last season with the line "It started with the 3 of us.  It's time we got back to that."  Why even put that in there if you are just going to throw it out?  I get angst, I do, but it's too much.  I love the team on this show, working together.  I love heists (I miss Leverage!), where everyone is playing their part and kicking butt.  This isn't any fun.

[MostlyC]

I'm super bitter that people are so far off topic.  There are relationship threads, character threads, and spoiler topics where many, many posts belong.

So I'm issuing a Time Out.

[MostlyC]

Welcome to the Bitterness Thread!

 

This is where you talk about how much you don't like what has happened IN THE PAST on Arrow.  This is a spoiler-free zone.  

 

If you start speculating on what will happen in the future, please go to Hopes and Fears.  If you wish to go into depth and detail about characters and/or their relationships, please take it or whichever thread is appropriate.

 

Due to the sensitive and spoilery nature of the latest promo, please spoiler tag any discussion about said spoilery promo.  We want to keep the spoiler-phobic posters free of the spoilery hysteria.

[wonderwall]

I think I know why I haven't been enjoying this season as much... Team Arrow isn't as cohesive as they were last season... That's what's missing. The EPs, SA, DR all describe Team Arrow as the core of the show, now that they've taken that away obviously it feels as though something big is missing. Ugh this upsets me greatly. 

[Chaser]

I watched this episode live because of Diggle/Malcolm/Thea, but not next weeks. I can't take anymore Laurel Is The Black Canary. I have a concussion from all the anvils being dropped. 

 

I miss Team Arrow. I miss Diggle and Felicity friendship. I miss Oliver and Felicity. This show is losing its heart.

[statsgirl]

All of this has now cemented my belief that Katie Cassidy is the Lina Lamont of Arrow.

I can't staaahnd it.

 

And that would make Felicity the spunky Kathy?  That works for me.

[Danny Franks]

So my current bitterness revolves around the fact that comic book fans are being blamed for Laurel being Black Canary. There seems to be this idea that they can't let go of comic book canon, and that's why Sara was disposed of. No. Any comic book fans I know (and I am one myself) who have watched Arrow were perfectly fine with Sara as Black Canary. They welcomed it, because she was badass and hot and capable and sympathetic. 

 

The only people I've seen who are saying 'Laurel has to be Black Canary because comics' are fans of Katie Cassidy and/or Laurel Lance. They're clinging to that bit of canon because it's the only thing they've got after the writers fucked up the character so badly. Oh, and the writers are clinging to it too, which is the bigger problem.

 

As for Team Arrow, how can they ever be the core of the show if Laurel has a significant role as a protagonist? She's always shown that she has no interest in Felicity or Diggle, and has either dismissed them completely or treated them as afterthoughts. So how can you have a female lead who doesn't value "the core of the show" and have her be sympathetic. These two things do not work together. And that's not to say that everyone on the show should love Diggle and Felicity, because I hate cheerleaders, but you'd need much better writing and much better acting to create a character who is at odds with fan favourites, yet retains fan affections.

[KirkB]

Question. Why does Arrow even need a Black Canary? Forget who is behind the mask for a minute. The show is supposed to be about Oliver Queen and his journey to becoming a hero, the Green Arrow. I know the Canary is connected to Green Arrow in the comics, and that she and Oliver have an on again, off again relationship, in the comics. But this isn't the comics. And more importantly, it is Oliver's show. I'm not saying he needs to be on screen every second of every episode, or even that the whole world needs to revolve around him. I like to see stories with Diggle and Felicity and Quentin and Thea and Roy and Malcolm. But as much as I liked Sara I though her Canary story overrode a great deal of Oliver's last season, made worse by the fact we were overwhelmed with her in both the present and the past in the flashbacks while criminally underusing Moira and screwing with Slade's story.

[Pyramid]

Question. Why does Arrow even need a Black Canary? Forget who is behind the mask for a minute. The show is supposed to be about Oliver Queen and his journey to becoming a hero, the Green Arrow. I know the Canary is connected to Green Arrow in the comics, and that she and Oliver have an on again, off again relationship, in the comics. But this isn't the comics. And more importantly, it is Oliver's show. I'm not saying he needs to be on screen every second of every episode, or even that the whole world needs to revolve around him. I like to see stories with Diggle and Felicity and Quentin and Thea and Roy and Malcolm. But as much as I liked Sara I though her Canary story overrode a great deal of Oliver's last season, made worse by the fact we were overwhelmed with her in both the present and the past in the flashbacks while criminally underusing Moira and screwing with Slade's story.

Good question.

 

I've not read the comics, but from what I can gather, BC doesn't really need GA either. It sounds like she's entirely kickass in her own right. Why not have a Black Canary show, and they could've had crossovers. It would have the advantage of an actual female super hero tv show, and we would have BC cluttering up Arrow in the way she does at the moment.

[writersblock51]

In the early comics (and I'm talking about the ones I read in the 70s and beyond), Green Arrow and Black Canary were individuals who eventually worked together. And, in some versions, had a relationship.  But they were - and should have remained - individuals, not unlike how Batman works with other superheroes from time to time, a la Justice League.  

 

I think the show needs to reassess how much a Black Canary is actually needed at this point. Sara's journey established the character well enough but there was still a risk in parts of S2 where Arrow was in danger of being overcome by the attention Sara's BC was getting. And now her death - and Laurel's journey - continue that risk.

 

I much preferred the show when the focus was on Oliver/Arrow and then expanded to include the people in his who were key parts of that journey.  Laurel's journey seems wholly independent of what Oliver is up to, whereas Sara's began because of the Gambit.  She was always going to be connected to Oliver in that way.  But her journey had evolved into her own.

 

from what we've seen so far of Laurel's transition, I'm not buying it at all and i don't think it helps the show (or Oliver) in any way.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Question. Why does Arrow even need a Black Canary? Forget who is behind the mask for a minute. The show is supposed to be about Oliver Queen and his journey to becoming a hero, the Green Arrow. I know the Canary is connected to Green Arrow in the comics, and that she and Oliver have an on again, off again relationship, in the comics. But this isn't the comics. And more importantly, it is Oliver's show. I'm not saying he needs to be on screen every second of every episode, or even that the whole world needs to revolve around him. I like to see stories with Diggle and Felicity and Quentin and Thea and Roy and Malcolm. But as much as I liked Sara I though her Canary story overrode a great deal of Oliver's last season, made worse by the fact we were overwhelmed with her in both the present and the past in the flashbacks while criminally underusing Moira and screwing with Slade's story.

It wouldn't be like having Ken without Barbie. I think both should stand on their own. If they used Arrow to launch a BC show, it might have worked since Felicity has assumed the romantic interest role on Arrow. However, they tied both hands begin their back as Sara could have carried a BC hour on her own. Laurel to this point can't and needs Arrow. She has the platform to launch from but lacks the oomph to leave the ground.

To remain in topic. I'm bitter we won't see a BC show with Sara and Nyssa and their adventures. Sara could have benefited from not being attached to Oliver and her family's drama. She was a good character overwhelmed by her sister's destiny.

Edited October 23, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Danny Franks]

I don't think Black Canary was needed at all. As writersblock51 pointed out, the comic book continuity between the two hardly has them tied irrevocably together throughout their history. They're two characters who were originally established as separate, but who were brought together by writers and later established a (rather toxic, if you ask me) relationship.

 

But the showrunners fell into the trap of deciding they needed Black Canary, and so they feel obliged to honour the comic book continuity of them being together. But they picked a mediocre actress who has no chemistry with the lead actor, and then they wrote her consistently terribly. So... whoops. But it seems like they've made the exact same mistake on The Flash. Iris West? Well she and Barry have to be together in the end, right?

 

Only, the actress is no great shakes, and from what I've seen she has no romantic chemistry with the lead. And she's written as tangential to the plot, and the only character who is on the outside, with no knowledge of the superhero secret. Not only that, but they have another female character who, from what I've seen, already has more chemistry with the lead (as slight as it is). More than that, they've even made the same mistake of putting obstacles in their way that seem too insurmountable. For Oliver and Laurel it was him cheating on her with her own sister, which indirectly led to her sister's death/five years of hell. With Barry and Iris, it's the rather gross fact that they've been raised as siblings, and Iris seems to see Barry as a goofy brother.

 

Iris is worse, because she was originally introduce to The Flash's universe as a love interest. They've got no way out of that one. Laurel? There's enough in the comics of them on their own, and having other love interests, that I don't think they should feel obliged to stick with it. But I suspect that, ultimately, they will.

[Password]

For some reason I don't think Iris and Barrles will end up together at the end of The Flash. They might try, but for some reason I don't see it working out.

 

Anyway, just as Sara took over season 2 in the second half, I have no interest in Laurel doing the same. It's unnecessary to be frank and not something I want to see if it takes away from the core three I adore, Thea's story which really intrigues me, and other peripheral characters that add to the show (where is Roy going this season?). They've cornered themselves, and seem to want to come out fighting instead of allowing Laurel to die or leave the city at the end of season 2.

[Chaser]

I can't remember who said this or where I read it, but there is a quote that goes something like "When you want to make a woman a hero, you hurt her first. When you want to make a man a hero, you also hurt a woman first." I feel like we have seen this time and time again. I hate it.

[Danny Franks]

For some reason I don't think Iris and Barrles will end up together at the end of The Flash. They might try, but for some reason I don't see it working out.

 

 

I can see it not working out, in terms of the character dynamics and the storyline and the lack of chemistry, but I think it'll still be forced in the end, because Iris West is Mrs. Barry Allen, she's never really been anything else. She's more Lois Lane than Black Canary ever was. Apparently the New 52 has retconned their relationship out of existence, but still kept Iris as being in love with Barry (while conveniently doesn't yet reciprocate, so he can probably go out and shag some of the other sexually available flesh puppets that DC turned their female characters into).

 

With Laurel, I had faith last season that they'd seen the error of their ways with her, and wouldn't try to force her into roles that simply didn't fit. Sadly, that has been disproven with the first episode of the season. So I reckon they'll probably push back all the way, in the end.

 

I can't remember who said this or where I read it, but there is a quote that goes something like "When you want to make a woman a hero, you hurt her first. When you want to make a man a hero, you also hurt a woman first." I feel like we have seen this time and time again. I hate it.

 

 

Sounds like something a comic book writer would say. It's far too common in the medium that I can reel off a load of them right now. Gwen Stacey, Elektra, Alex DeWitt, Barbara Gordon (seriously, I fucking hate The Killing Joke), Psylocke, Jean Grey, Ilyana Rasputin, Jean Loring, Sue Dibney, Karen Page (thanks, Frank Miller. Why do you hate women so much?), Madelyn Pryor, Mockingbird, Scarlet Witch, Supergirl, Starfire.

 

Not all killed, but all hurt, raped, tortured, damaged in some way. And usually to cause pain to a man. That list is by no means exhaustive.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Carrie Ann]

I strongly suspect that Laurel was included as a character on Arrow because they intended to spin her off onto her own show. It's the only way not bothering to chem-test your two leads makes any sense, and because they're so spinoff-happy, it just makes sense to me. But then they effed up by casting the wrong person, and not thinking clearly about how to write Laurel, as a pre-BC character. So viewers hate her, and now a BC/BoP show is a non-starter. And now we're stuck with her on a show that doesn't have room for her, and they're just going to meta-address every criticism of her character and her potential journey to becoming BC and hope that that covers it. It doesn't.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[KirkB]

Which is a good theory Carrie Ann, only it doesn't explain Sara. Maybe they realized their mistake and brought in Sara as a new BC (which would have reopened the spinoff possibilities, as the Birds of Prey episode showed), but why then kill her off just to prop Laurel up? If they'd already decided Laurel wasn't working, why try again?

Edited October 23, 2014 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

I strongly suspect that Laurel was included as a character on Arrow because they intended to spin her off onto her own show. It's the only way not bothering to chem-test your two leads makes any sense, and because they're so spinoff-happy, it just makes sense to me.

Replying in relationships thread, so this thread doesn't get locked again. :)

[Carrie Ann]

Which is a good theory Carrie Ann, only it doesn't explain Sara. Maybe they realized their mistake and brought in Sara as a new BC (which would have reopened the spinoff possibilities, as the Birds of Prey episode showed), but why then kill her off just to prop Laurel up? If they'd already decided Laurel wasn't working, why try again?

 

I no longer believe they ever actually considered making Sara the Black Canary. I don't think they'd given up on spinning off Laurel as BC after Season 1 or even during Season 2, so they misguidedly brought Sara on to be the first Canary, because of their inheritance obsession. Like all things related to Laurel's progression, it was a terrible idea. Now I think they've given up on the spinoff, they've given up on Lauriver, but they haven't given up on Laurel as BC. It's the last thread for that character, and they're clinging to it with all they've got. It would have been better to let it all go. And who knows. Maybe this will go a different direction than all signs seem to point, but I doubt it.

[Sakura12]

I think there are only 2 reasons that they are going forward with Laurel as Black Canary, her name is Dinah Lance and the actress's contract states that she will be BC. 

 

Not for story purposes with what they've shown so far. It's because they don't have a choice without spending lots of money to back out of a contract.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Sakura12

[Zalyn]

This is how Laurel should have handled that failed bit of thuggery/assault:

 

http://youtu.be/814QnE7yhts?t=2m9s

 

Burton!Catwoman knows where it's at.

[statsgirl]

I don't think Black Canary was needed at all. As writersblock51 pointed out, the comic book continuity between the two hardly has them tied irrevocably together throughout their history. They're two characters who were originally established as separate, but who were brought together by writers and later established a (rather toxic, if you ask me) relationship.

 

But the showrunners fell into the trap of deciding they needed Black Canary, and so they feel obliged to honour the comic book continuity of them being together. But they picked a mediocre actress who has no chemistry with the lead actor, and then they wrote her consistently terribly. So... whoops. But it seems like they've made the exact same mistake on The Flash. Iris West? Well she and Barry have to be together in the end, right?

I think the show they had in mind had the Black Canary was the Green Arrow's True Love interest.  But I think they soon realized that wasn't going to happen.

 

What makes me bitter is that they are still trying to make Laurel Black Canary happen.  To the detriment of other characters (Sara) and others' screentime.

[wonderwall]

I want to introduce to you guys the gif I will be using in excess over the remainder of the season:

 

[ohjoy]

I imagine that Oliver's putting his hands around his own neck to keep from trying to strangle hers. (Sorry, too soon after the episode's events?)

[Pyramid]

I see it like, "Ugh, I'm going to strangle myself, or maybe just put my hands over my ears and go la la la, ... fuck it I'm snapping my own neck".

[JayKay]

I don't remember if I've ever posted in here before (at least not seriously) but I'm going to have to, finally. I hate not being able to post in a thread without making myself mad. Over the last couple weeks, I've deleted at least ten posts before replying because they were so pissy and negative. I did it just now in another thread. No more self-editing denial, though.

I'm still mad and disappointed - deflated - over Sara. I know everyone says they knew she would die eventually, but I always hoped not in the back of my mind. I feel like season two was one big bait-and-switch. I didn't watch most of season one live, but my jaw-dropped when I saw that they recast Black Canary with a stuntwoman actress. I was back in, big time.

Sara almost immediately became my favorite character. She was so cool, man. But now... the whole thing feels so manipulative and cruel. I kinda regret giving the show a second chance. I watch tv for escape, and Arrow just isn't fun anymore. There are still many aspects of the show that I'm interested in but I haven't been able to watch since the premiere, and I don't even want to anymore.

So that's what I needed to say. Instead of going wrathful on the show in every thread, I'll just have to stop watching it. If a person had betrayed me the way Arrow did (lol) I'd cut them out of my life. So, goodbye and good luck, Arrow. I just hope that nobody minds me occasionally joking about the show even though I'll be terminally behind on it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Well personally, I generally enjoy reading the negative posts.  They let me know that others are feeling the same way I am about the show.  So I say post away!

 

I'm actually bitter that this season is turning away regular posters on here.  I like reading everyone's thoughts and it sucks that people who were on here frequently aren't checking in as much anymore :(

[statsgirl]

Do we need to start an Arrow Watchers Anonymous?  JayKay, Danny Franks,and everyone else who has stopped watching but still writes great snarks. Don't go!  I enjoy reading your posts, and they give me a reality check when the show's delusion gets too much.