Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[FurryFury]

Sara and Laurel have created narrative problems. Had Laurel never been written in for S1 and a potential BC (Sara?) showed up in S2 the narrative would have been stronger and perhaps the character integrated organically.

 

Just imagine a show without Laurel. Tommy and Oliver could still have a similar relationship, only Tommy's death didn't have to be for Laurel (he could have been saving, say, Thea, which would have been even more powerful due to a later reveal), Quentin would still be pissed at Oliver and still come to reluctantly work with him, and everything else in s1 would transpire in the same way. And then Sara could return and she would actually have a real place on the show and the screentime wasted on Sara/Laurel which was written horrendously and inconsistently could have been spent on Sara/Diggle and Sara/Felicity and more Sara/Sin (I do feel we got exactly the right amount of Sara/Quentin in s2). And the lack of Laurel would also mean the lack of the horrible drug addiction plot, which, again, meant wasted screentime. And, of course, Sara wouldn't have to die (and even go back to LoA, because it was completely OOC in the first place).

[chaos is welcome]

Just imagine a show without Laurel. Tommy and Oliver could still have a similar relationship, only Tommy's death didn't have to be for Laurel (he could have been saving, say, Thea, which would have been even more powerful due to a later reveal), Quentin would still be pissed at Oliver and still come to reluctantly work with him, and everything else in s1 would transpire in the same way. And then Sara could return and she would actually have a real place on the show and the screentime wasted on Sara/Laurel which was written horrendously and inconsistently could have been spent on Sara/Diggle and Sara/Felicity and more Sara/Sin (I do feel we got exactly the right amount of Sara/Quentin in s2). And the lack of Laurel would also mean the lack of the horrible drug addiction plot, which, again, meant wasted screentime. And, of course, Sara wouldn't have to die (and even go back to LoA, because it was completely OOC in the first place).

Slow clap. I am bitter thinking about this AU, because we are stuck with the current shitstorm,

[tv echo]

I agree with writersblock51 that the change in EPs basically left Arrow with the short end of the stick.  So we have huge leaps in illogic, glaring inconsistencies, and many out of character moments.

 

Incidentally, the EPs totally misled us during the hiatus.  Remember that show description that stated that Oliver/Arrow would be helped this season by, among others, "international assassin Sara Lance"?

 

The show is called Arrow - it should be about Oliver.  Last season I thought they spent too much time on Sara as the Canary even though I really like Sara.  Now we're going through Canary 2.0 with Laurel.  No thanks.

 

Incidentally, I found the scenes with both Oliver and Roy in masks and costumes (looking like twins) unintentionally hilarious.  I don't know why.  One costumed superhero running around the city looks cool.  Two similarly dressed superheros running around the city looks like comic con.  I had no problem with the costumed Oliver and Sara fighting together.  There's just something about costumed Oliver and Roy together that I find funny.  Maybe it's the masks.  Dunno....

Edited October 31, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Sara is back to recurring. Off with Nyssa (but not with the LOA - don't know how but BC shouldn't be an assassin) must of the time, but coming back to Starling City when needed.

 

I don't like going IN THE COMICS much here, because I totally agree with the thinking that Arrow should be doing its own thing, but in the comics, BC has been connected with the LoA in several different iterations. And irony of all ironies -- last month, the last Black Canary book before it got cancelled was the Futures End special. In it,

Black Canary defeats Ra's, takes over the LoA, turns it into a female group called the Red League that goes everywhere in the world liberating women and children from human traffickers and prostitution rings. Sound familiar?

We were even talking about it a bit in the Sara thread, but now it's all lost anyway. Sigh.

Edited October 31, 2014 by dancingnancy

[NumberCruncher]

Incidentally, I found the scenes with both Oliver and Roy in masks and costumes (looking like twins) unintentionally hilarious.  I don't know why.  One costumed superhero running around the city looks cool.  Two similarly dressed superheros running around the city looks like comic con.  I had no problem with the costumed Oliver and Sara fighting together.  There's just something about costumed Oliver and Roy together that I find funny.  Maybe it's the masks.  Dunno....

Especially Roy's mask. It looks silly and REALLY obvious. Also not a huge fan of Oliver's mask--I thought the greasepaint wasn't nearly as cheesy, but I chalk all of it up to them catering to the comic book crowd.

[TanyaKay]

The focus on Laurel also is pulling attention away from Oliver - and it's his show. Or maybe that how it feels to me.

 

If I saw that Oliver was doing things differently as a direct result of Sara's death, it would feel different, I think. But he's in cop-mode now, not necessarily Arrow mode.  He's reacting to the latest clue that so happened to have been in his possession for a week or so without him checking it out.  Felicity being out of town isn't helping track things down either.  It just seems like the murder mystery is truly about Laurel while Oliver & Co. are just flailing.

 

The show should never have been about Black Canary to the detriment of Green Arrow/Oliver Queen. But this is not unlike what happened last season when more & more time was spent on Sara's journey.   Which all seems like a huge waste in retrospect.

 

Why is this show so hellbent on Black Canary stuff anyway?

 

and we are forced to see that canary journey twice. I mean the titular character journey is shown once, the other more popular characters like Felicity and Diggle barely get any background info, if any. Yet we see them parading one canary after another and wasting precious screen time on something that is not only repetitive but also mind numbingly boring.

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah on Rewatching S2 I was horribly depressed about everything after the lunge. They yoyo'd bc. "No more killing, my soul can't take it...I am a killer". And then they gave Oliver that incredibly vulnerable moment with Sara where he admits he is terrified Slade will come after her and she says she isn't that hard to kill, that they will face him together. Bitter that after weeks, we still haven't seen him cope with her death, really. He has lost so so so much. And he thought she was dead THREE TIMES. Three. It's cruel. Not telling Quentin is cruel. The writers are cruel. And then occasionally they throw in some olicity or just felicity to inject lightness...but I am not buying it anymore. The enjoy being cruel.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Bitter: S3 might have one moment worth rewatching and it may the Origins of Felicity Smoak. At this point it looks vintage Arrow. I'm in for one episode because they can choke on the rest of the story they are shoveling.

Maybe this doesn't belong in the bitter thread because those photos of EBR and Mama Smoak put the first smile on my face due to something Arrow related since S3E1. BUT I'm bitter cease usually Felicity and TA always make me smile.

So this doesn't get moved. All the other Arrow shit we've endured has sucked thus far and I'm extremely bitter about it!

Edited October 31, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[olicityfan25]

The focus on Laurel also is pulling attention away from Oliver - and it's his show. Or maybe that how it feels to me.

 

If I saw that Oliver was doing things differently as a direct result of Sara's death, it would feel different, I think. But he's in cop-mode now, not necessarily Arrow mode.  He's reacting to the latest clue that so happened to have been in his possession for a week or so without him checking it out.  Felicity being out of town isn't helping track things down either.  It just seems like the murder mystery is truly about Laurel while Oliver & Co. are just flailing.

 

The show should never have been about Black Canary to the detriment of Green Arrow/Oliver Queen. But this is not unlike what happened last season when more & more time was spent on Sara's journey.   Which all seems like a huge waste in retrospect.

 

Why is this show so hellbent on Black Canary stuff anyway?

Because like I said before they have a boner for KC/BC for some reason. 

[hogwash]

Is it bad that I'm so bored with the Black Canary thing that I kinda want the show to pull what they did with Roy (*presto chango* instantly imbued with fighting/archery abilities of comic counterpart) and just to get it over with? I really really don't want to watch a season long arc of this. Everything Black Canary so far has been a giant waste of time. They essentially had Laurel in a freaking holding pattern with no explanation whatsoever for the entirety of season 1/2. No explanation necessary for how Sara got shafted. We are three seasons in. I don't care anymore.

 

I also want the Sara murder mystery to be over. My suspension of disbelief and 2B amnesia can only go so far. Unlike 2B, I've actually sat through and liked all the episodes this season. But it still feels like they haven't learned anything from the crapola that was 2B and the Mirakuru storyline. All setup for the overarching plot (...304...) with no consideration/time for proper characterization or individual story arcs (UGH, Sara getting onto that boat with Nyssa. UGH, Papa Lance/Laurel without Mama Lance happily seeing her off). The show has pretty much every character involved in the Sara murder mystery are having intense reactions and going to all these extremes while the characters who did have strong relationships with Sara are not mentioned at all.

 

If I had to put it in order from actual relationship/interactions with Sara from the show, it would go (strongest to least):

TIER 1: Mama Lance (gotta love the attention to detail in this show...), Papa Lance, Sin (so much careful detail...)

TIER 2: Nyssa (the show seems to gloss over the whole "you/your family can die if you don't come back to me" thing), Oliver (he had the most "direct" relationship with her, wonky timeline aside)

TIER 3: Ivo, Laurel (mostly cause they're related lbr)

TIER 4: Felicity/Diggle (slightly interchangeable), Thea

TIER 5: Slade (island shenanigans!), Roy

 

But instead, s03 has it in this order:

TIER 1: Papa Lance, Felicity (HOW?), Laurel (HOW?), Diggle (HIS FIRST KID?? REALLY, SHOW?!)

TIER 2: Nyssa

TIER 3: Oliver (maybe he's holding it in...?)

TIER 4: Roy, Merlyn (??? I guess he's on there now)

NO TIER: Mama Lance (who's that?), Sin (who?)

 

Just like 2B, it's hard to focus on the good (Slade) because the stupid (Mirakuru/Shado) is blinding. I hope the Flash crossover and the Felicity episode means the show will ease up on the Sara/Laurel aspect. Or at least, let some of the characters move on so it's easier to skip through...

[Danny Franks]

Bitter: S3 might have one moment worth rewatching and it may the Origins of Felicity Smoak. At this point it looks vintage Arrow. I'm in for one episode because they can choke on the rest of the story they are shoveling.

 

You know, I thought that when I decided to dump this show, it's one I would come back to later on. Either later in season 3 or perhaps in season 4, when the love triangle shit was done with. I thought I'd read this forum and be sorely tempted to watch, annoyed that I was missing out on some good stuff. I thought that, even in the season of tedious love melodrama that the spoilers suggested, there would be lots of moments and scenes I'd want to watch. But I genuinely have not been tempted to watch other than wondering, 'can these writers really have decided to do that?' once or twice. I'm not missing the show one tiny bit, and I really didn't think that would be the case.

 

I was already annoyed last season, when they blundered through the Slade storyline at lightning pace, and missing so many good opportunities for all the characters to grow, and for intriguing stories to be told. Now, it seems like that really wasn't a blip. It seems more like the run of episodes from The Odyssey to Three Ghosts (with a couple of exceptions) was more of a, 'hey, this show is actually good!' blip. That's a real shame.

[statsgirl]

Incidentally, I found the scenes with both Oliver and Roy in masks and costumes (looking like twins) unintentionally hilarious.  I don't know why.  One costumed superhero running around the city looks cool.  Two similarly dressed superheros running around the city looks like comic con.  

Comic con is being kind to them. When you can't tell which is Oliver and which is Roy, you're another step on the road to the Keystone Kops.

 

 

and we are forced to see that canary journey twice. I mean the titular character journey is shown once, the other more popular characters like Felicity and Diggle barely get any background info, if any. Yet we see them parading one canary after another and wasting precious screen time on something that is not only repetitive but also mind numbingly boring.

 

And if the EPs are really going to have

Sara origin flashbacks

as they said they will (not sure if it's a real spoiler, in spoiler bars just in case), then we will have

three Canary journeys, two going on in the same episode but different time frames

. Between that and watching Thea evolve, this is far more than I want when it sidelines Diggle and Felicity.

 

You know, I thought that when I decided to dump this show, it's one I would come back to later on. Either later in season 3 or perhaps in season 4, when the love triangle shit was done with. 

I truly hate triangles with the fire of a thousand suns, but I'd take even that over this Laurel adoration crap.

[TanyaKay]

 

I truly hate triangles with the fire of a thousand suns, but I'd take even that over this Laurel adoration crap.

 

So would I, and if they are going with a triangle, it would mean more Felicity and less canary journey. I am okay with that.

And if the EPs are really going to have

Sara origin flashbacks

as they said they will (not sure if it's a real spoiler, in spoiler bars just in case), then we will have

three Canary journeys, two going on in the same episode but different time frames

. Between that and watching Thea evolve, this is far more than I want when it sidelines Diggle and Felicity.

 

I find that scary and boring at the same time.

Please show, don't take me there.

[Starfish35]

Someone in the episode thread mentioned Cliff Simon as an alternative casting for Ra's Al Ghul and now I find I have a new thing to be bitter about - lol. I was very much on board the Oded Fehr train, but Lord Ba'al? Yeah. Now suddenly I can't see anything else.

http://forums.syfy.com/uploads/monthly_05_2007/post-2926747-1180382521.jpg

Edited November 1, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

ohmigosh, he would really have been awesome!

[Morrigan2575]

Someone in the episode thread mentioned Cliff Simon as an alternative casting for Ra's Al Ghul and now I find I have a new thing to be bitter about - lol. I was very much on board the Oded Fehr train, but Lord Ba'al? Yeah. Now suddenly I can't see anything else.

http://forums.syfy.com/uploads/monthly_05_2007/post-2926747-1180382521.jpg

Someone mentioned him over the summer and I flipped he would have been perfect in the role. Loved Ba'al on SG1

[Starfish35]

Yes he would have been perfect. I don't know why it never occurred to me before.

[tv echo]

I'm still bitter about that ridiculous "Sara" episode.  There was no reason to keep Sara's death a secret and to bury her secretly.  No. Reason.  None whatsoever.

[Sakura12]

I'm bitter that they killed Sara at all with the way they did it and it was too soon. 

 

I think it would've been better if it happened like this, Laurel and Sara have their scene on the rooftop. Laurel leaves and when she's on the ground, Sara's mask floats in front of her (for their blatantly obvious symbolism of course). Laurel looks up to see why it fell, she runs back up to the rooftop to see it empty. She is confused and worried (or in KC's case having her usual blank expression). She goes back to the lair and waits for Oliver and team and hands them Sara's mask. Oliver then goes to the rooftop to investigate and finds signs of a fight and a little bit of blood. They analyze the blood and it's Sara's.  

 

Now the mystery for the season is what happened to Sara and who took her? Who was powerful enough to abduct Sara? That would add a legitimate threat to our heroes. It wouldn't be Ra's because they kind of ruined that by having her happily sent back to the League. However it could be anyone else, the Suicide Squad if they want to tie it to this season, or H.I.V.E to tie it to a storyline that was already brought up or even Team 7 if they want to add something new. Or she was taken by another villain that we have to yet to meet and don't have to meet until the second half of the season or even be set up for a reveal in season 4. 

 

Most importantly that would take away the depressing feeling this season started with. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sakura12

[Danny Franks]

I'm bitter that killed Sara at all with the way they did it and it was too soon. 

 

I think it would've been better if it happened like this, Laurel and Sara have their scene on the rooftop. Laurel leaves and when she's on the ground, Sara's mask floats in front of her (for their blatantly obvious symbolism of course). Laurel looks up to see why it fell, she runs back up to the rooftop to see it empty. She is confused and worried (or in KC's case having her usual blank expression). She goes back to the lair and waits for Oliver and team and hands them Sara's mask. Oliver then goes to the rooftop to investigate and finds signs of a fight and a little bit of blood. They analyze the blood and it's Sara's.  

 

Now the mystery for the season is what happened to Sara and who took her? Who was powerful enough to abduct Sara? That would add a legitimate threat to our heroes. It wouldn't be Ra's because they kind of ruined that by having her happily sent back to the League. However it could be anyone else, the Suicide Squad if they want to tie it to this season, or H.I.V.E to tie it to a storyline that was already brought up or even Team 7 if they want to add something new. Or she was taken by another villain that we have to yet to meet and don't have to meet until the second half of the season or even be set up for a reveal in season 4. 

 

Most importantly that would take the depressing feeling this season started with. 

 

That does sound like it would have been more interesting. And when you set out the players, as you have, you realise there would have been plenty who were interested in controlling or recruiting Sara. Yes, the League of Assassins would want her back, and Waller would love to add someone with Sara's abilities to her arsenal, either as a part of ARGUS or actually as a part of the Suicide Squad. And then there's HIVE, who are still a mystery, but must want some form of agents or soldiers. And even after that, there's the remote possibility of it being Merlyn or another old villain of the week figure.

 

But more than that, you don't cut off all storylines that you could have explored with Sara, like they have done by killing her. Laurel could still be stupid with vengeance, because she wants to get her sister back (even if it's only to steal more of her clothes), Oliver could still be woobie faced over her disappearance, amongst all his other troubles.  You still get vengeful Nyssa as well, because she wants to know what happened to Sara. They could even still keep it a secret from Lance, only it would be less reprehensible, this way.

 

I wonder if the writers ever considered going down this route.... No, they can't have, because if they'd considered it and then decided to kill her instead, then they're even bigger incompetents than I ever suspected.

[KirkB]

Kidnappings and disappearances are always harder to write and pull off convincingly but far more interesting than murder mysteries, because the former allow for the missing character to experience things and eventually return (or not) while the latter end the story of that character completely. Killing Sara for shock value is a lot easier and less work, which I imagine is why the EP's chose it.

[insubordination]

 

Killing Sara for shock value is a lot easier and less work, which I imagine is why the EP's chose it.

That's also why they chose to have Oliver and Felicity fall in love over hiatus and why they made Slade suddenly be secretly in love with Shado. Just easy and quick.

[Danny Franks]

Kidnappings and disappearances are always harder to write and pull off convincingly but far more interesting than murder mysteries, because the former allow for the missing character to experience things and eventually return (or not) while the latter end the story of that character completely. Killing Sara for shock value is a lot easier and less work, which I imagine is why the EP's chose it.

 

But they already did a kidnapping mystery in season 1. Granted, it wasn't done very well, and they basically just went, 'Walter's kidnapped. No one really notices. He's probably dead. Now we've found him and he's fine', but it shows that it doesn't have to be difficult.

 

It's not like they'd have needed Caity Lotz to appear every week, being imprisoned somewhere by mysterious captors. It's not like they'd even need to do more than have a couple of lines reference it, from episode to episode. 'We need to figure out what happened to Sara.... oh nuts, the villain of the week is being villainous. I'll have to think about Sara later'. How hard is that? Not very. Not very is the answer.

 

I'd love for someone to ask one of these chumps at a Q&A session, 'did you ever think about maybe not killing Sara? Like, you might have been able to do stuff with her still being alive?' Because there's really no right answer they could give to that question. It'd be funny. They either say they did think about not killing her, but did it anyway, or they show the sad limits of their creative imaginations by saying they always knew she had to die.

[Sakura12]

These EP's seem to think that the only way anyone will do anything is if someone dies. Slade will only turn against Oliver, if Shado dies. Oliver will only stop killing people if Tommy dies. Laurel can only decide to be a vigilante if Sara dies. So far that's been their big motivator crutch.

 

Sara's simply gone, that's the story line. How hard would be it to write that? Sara would disappear without us witnessing it. Have Team Arrow and Laurel trying to figure out what happened, then get busy with other matters while Laurel continue to brings it up since she seems to have a one track mind and mostly care about how things effect her. 

 

Nyssa would still show up demanding to know where Sara is and clash a bit with Team Arrow, then they still find out Malcolm's alive from her because Sara was sent after him and they all think he took her. He either could be behind but we don't find that out yet, or he's not and it's someone else that we find about later. Ra's wouldn't care about finding her because he still knows that Sara was never one of them when she choose to leave. So he wouldn't help Nyssa. 

 

Then they can show flashbacks of Sara from Nyssa's POV that could maybe drop some clues about who took her (which would give us a reason to give a crap about seeing Sara's flashback. Because now there is no point in seeing more of her past when she she has no future.) But we still would know nothing about where she is in the present. They could continue that trend for quite awhile and only have her appear when they are ready to tell us where's she been and what happened to her. 

 

Then for my canon, have her been tortured, and'or experimented on, brainwashed or have amnesia and think her name is Dinah Drake and she's always worked for whatever team took her. They can even wait until the finale of season 3 or not show her until season 4 if they wanted to really keep up the suspense. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

Having Sara disappear instead of being murdered could have really helped Laurel. If Sara was to disappear we could have had concerned Laurel instead of bloodthirsty Laurel. They could have had Laurel stay in the DAs office as Team Arrow handles the investigation, but as evidence mounts Laurel slowly grows more and more concerned (training with Grant because she keeps getting kidnapped). It would have built on the relationship between the sisters and Lance could have been in the know and helped, therefore re-enforcing the whole family Lance unit. And the biggest bonus: Sara would still live. They find her mid-season and whatever she goes thru requires her to heal physically and so Laurel stays with her (and Nyssa) through the rehabilitation. In the meantime, she has moved the training to LOA-style. Gradual slow development that doesn't require Sara's death and allows for the passing of the mantle.

[MostlyC]

The repeated bashing of Laurel the character and Katie Cassidy the actress has crossed the line in many threads, including this one. We are not going to go back and delete or move anything, but going forward, let's keep this in mind; you don't have to like Laurel or Katie Cassidy, just as other posters are not required to hate either of them. Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted. Also, just because you think it, does not mean it needs to be put on the internet; think before you post. There are people who are not comfortable with reading in here because of the vitriol against the character and actress, and frankly, that includes the mods. The tone of a number of the Laurel-hating posts leaves much to be desired, so reel it in please. Going forward, we will be watching and posts may be deleted or edited.

Thank you for your consideration.

Your mods,

Lisin, MostlyC, SilverStormm, and stacey

[pivot]

I just started watching this show a couple of weeks ago and marathoned the entire show. I haven't fallen in love with a show like this since Angel. And it's weird how the trajectory of Arrow matches Angel.

Season 1 - Case of the week with a Big Bad that doesn't take over the entire show. The highlight of each episode being the chemistry between the main team - Angel, Cordy, Wes/Doyle and Oliver, Felicity, Digg.

Season 2 - Chemistry between main trio grows with the addition of a new team member who works with entire team - Gunn and Sara. Relationship between main character and his Girl Friday grows - Angel/Cordy and Oliver/Felicity. On the negative side, show gets bogged down in old nemesis from character's past which drags on and on and makes the season overly depressing.

Season 3 - The EPs tell fans they understand that season 2 was too depressing and promise that the new season will be more fun and that they get that fans love the scenes with the core group together. Instead of delivering on those promises, they bring in a new character to the core group ruining the chemistry and creating fewer scenes with the core group - Fred and Laurel (who is new due to her BC journey). Show continues to find reasons to pull core group apart and then create stupid storylines to destroy what fans liked about the Girl Friday on the show. If things go as they did on Angel for the rest of season 3, they will completely destroy the Felicity character and make it so fans won't want Oliver/Felicity together any longer. In my Angel re-watching, I end the series right before the screenshot of a pregnant Darla in Fredless which is perfect finale - no Fred and the gang together.

What is working in Arrow's favor is that the EPs appear to love EBR so maybe Felicity will escape the fate that Cordy went through when the EPs decided to punish Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant. That is my glimmer of hope that I am clinging to anyway.

[wonderwall]

 If things go as they did on Angel for the rest of season 3, they will completely destroy the Felicity character and make it so fans won't want Oliver/Felicity together any longer.

Lol if anything, they've made Felicity stronger this season. She hasn't been unlikable at all. They've made her more grown up and confident. she still doesn't take shit from anyone (like Oliver)... If anything, what the writers are failing at is the characterization of Laurel and relationships. They're failing at delivering team arrow scenes, ones that I always look forward to nowadays but never get. Failing at delivering Diggle and Felicity friendship scenes as well as Oliver/Felicity scenes. I mean I understand they're going through a rough patch, but man, it's been cold for the past few episodes and there has been NO hint of even friendship between them which sucks. 

[tessaray]

As long as Sara was alive anywhere, the audience would be comparing Laurel's BC to hers.  The only way to stop that would be for Sara to no longer be a factor at all.  I agree that this show relies too much on death to propel the journeys - it's cheap and lazy writing.  I think the only one that has been interesting to watch (in spite of the bitterness) is Moira/Thea.   

 

While I'm not a fan of super powers, I'm with those who wish that Laurel would visit CC and come back ready to go and actually get on with it.  I'd still be bitter about Sara's death but at least they'd stop rubbing it in. 

 

ETA: I hope this post did not cross the line re: Laurel for the mods.  

Edited November 2, 2014 by tessaray

[BunsenBurner]

 

While I'm not a fan of super powers, I'm with those who wish that Laurel would visit CC and come back ready to go and actually get on with it.  I'd still be bitter about Sara's death but at least they'd stop rubbing it in. 

 

ETA: I hope this post did not cross the line re: Laurel for the mods.

If that were the case then shouldn't Felicity now have super powers. ?

[Password]

If that were the case then shouldn't Felicity now have super powers. ?

 

Oh she does. Haven't you heard?

She wrote a program that has the ability to cripple an entire city.

Sounds pretty awesome to me.

 

ETA: Whoopsies forgot the spoiler tags.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Limbo

[tessaray]

 

If that were the case then shouldn't Felicity now have super powers. ?

 

:-) Maybe she (Laurel) stays at a radioactive bed and breakfast?  

I will admit to total ignorance on how the whole meta-human thing is supposed to work on The Flash.  I only watched the episode with Felicity.  I'm too leery of these showrunners to risk getting into another show they are doing.  (If all goes well, I'll binge watch on Netflix next year.)    

 

ETA:  for moderation purposes, I'm only referencing the Flash/super powers in relation to moving Laurel along (it could be any plot device - I don't care) but not watching The Flash is pure Arrow bitterness.  Not really a cross-over post but it can be moved or deleted if necessary.  

Edited November 2, 2014 by tessaray

[Morrigan2575]

The only meta humans are people who were hit by the blast, like Barry. She would have had to be in CC during 209 in order to have developed super powers

[wingster55]

She hasn't been unlikable at all.

 

3x02 disagrees 

[Chaser]

Personally, if they introduce the sonic cry I would prefer the original introduction with Sara. Applied Sciences at QC could even develop a new improved version. 

 

I really don't want superhuman elements on Arrow. I like the grounded approach better. 

[wonderwall]

3x02 disagrees 

So you thought she was unlikable in episode 2? :p I think Laurel has been better this season, but she's also been very intensely ragey... I made a post a while ago in the Laurel lance thread about how Laurel never thinks things through, it's a shame she still doesn't. 

[MostlyC]

All Arrow/Flash cross-over related posts belong in Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow with The Flash and Other Superheroes in the DC Universe.

[wingster55]

So you thought she was unlikable in episode 2? :p

 

That is my opinion, yes. 

[wonderwall]

That is my opinion, yes. 

Dude, you haven't been posting a lot here so Idk why I'm totally shocked by this! :p I've actually been really disappointed with this season as a whole. 

 

• Sara's death isn't as impactful (is that a word?) as I thought it would be. 
• Laurel has been reduced to a two dimensional ragey 'fighter' who doesn't think things through
• Team Arrow hasn't had a good scene ever since the first five minutes of the premier
• Seriously though I miss the D/F dynamic so much
• Roy is still useless. All he does is parkour. 
• Oliver's distance with Felicity is just frustrating
• Ray Palmer is so stalkery and less charming and it's annoying
• Oliver's making ridiculously stupid decisions
• Thea/Malcolm's relationship just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't reflect well upon Thea imo
• NO TEAM ARROW MOMENTS. WTF
• Quentin not knowing just breaks my heart and makes me hate Laurel
• They even managed to make Diggle scenes in Corto Maltese annoying because it felt like they were shoehorning him in

 

There are more reasons, but yeah. This season has been disappointing. 

[pivot]

Lol if anything, they've made Felicity stronger this season. She hasn't been unlikable at all. They've made her more grown up and confident. she still doesn't take shit from anyone (like Oliver)... If anything, what the writers are failing at is the characterization of Laurel and relationships. They're failing at delivering team arrow scenes, ones that I always look forward to nowadays but never get. Failing at delivering Diggle and Felicity friendship scenes as well as Oliver/Felicity scenes. I mean I understand they're going through a rough patch, but man, it's been cold for the past few episodes and there has been NO hint of even friendship between them which sucks.

I don't think Felicity has been unlikable at all. I was saying that if season 3 of Arrow follows the season 3 model from Angel, they will change Felicity and make her very unlikable.

[Zalyn]

I'm bitter that the show has so much focus on Laurel that it's going to get difficult to effectively discuss episodes without treading the sensitive Laurel Line into too much negativity.  When they do things like obviously parallel Thea's "getting stronger" storyline with Laurel's story, I need to talk about the comparison forced on us by the writers. 

 

I'm trying to think of some more neutral placeholder (like a series of symbols?) to represent negative commentary because I don't want to be part of the problem.  (I am not trying to complain about the latest mod restrictions - I think they are necessary - it's just frustrating that I can't ignore or omit discussions of Laurel's character more because of how the show is going now).

Edited November 2, 2014 by Zalyn

[slayer2]

 

Roy is still useless. All he does is parkour.

Heh! This line made me giggle. I can just hear someone yelling at him "All you do is parkour!!!" Honestly though I'd rather watch an entire hour of Roy parkouring than the crap they've come up with. This season has been so emotionally bereft which you wouldn't figure considering that Sara DIED. I'm so disappointed. I was hoping that Wildcat being there meant real training for Laurel but she's punching a gym bag by herself. I wanted to see her go through what Thea seemed to have gone through, I wanted to see her incorporated into the team the same way that Spike was on Buffy or Faith was in Buffy season 7. I wanted to see her flaws and the hurt and the temptations all rolled into an emotional ball as she tries to deal with her sister's death. 

 

I wanted Oliver to realize that his lies drove Thea away and to tell the damn truth for once. I wanted to see more emotional moments like the last two episode of season 2. I wanted to see what happened when the stakes were raised between Oliver and Felicity. I wanted to see how Laurel would fit into the team once she knew. I wanted to see Laurel and Felicity forging some sort of bond in the bro-cave. I wanted to see more Suicide Squad and an Amanda Waller whose motivations I could at least understand. I wanted to see what Merlyn and Thea were doing all that time, all that Diggle/Lyla crap was totally unnecessary in Corto Maltese. I wanted to see people who genuinely care about each other fighting the good fight together because if you don't truly live life then how can you understand what you're fighting for. Don't even get me started on Sara. My Caity Lotz. :( I'm so very disappointed.

Edited November 2, 2014 by slayer2

[apinknightmare]

I wanted Oliver to realize that his lies drove Thea away and to tell the damn truth for once.

 

To be fair, he did realize that and was going to tell her the truth, but Diggle-in a move that I still don't understand but will obviously come into play later-talked him out of it.

Edited November 3, 2014 by apinknightmare

[MostlyC]

A Cunning Stunt, please check your PM Box.

[TanyaKay]

all that Diggle/Lyla crap was totally unnecessary in Corto Maltese. I wanted to see people who genuinely care about each other fighting the good fight together.

I still could not understand what the whole story with man Hunter was that Lyla sent Diggle to take care of. I mean I was happy to see Oliver & Roy in those sexy blue shirts instead of their costumes but I still don't understand.

[Genki]

I seriously need some meaningful OG Team Arrow interaction this week. Between Corto Maltese and Felicity running off to Central City, they hadn't been together, or seen each other for 1 week +, maybe even 2 weeks . A lot has gone down for everyone individually (Oliver - Thea & Malcolm/Diggle - fear for his family in danger/Felicity - New job, Barry and his team) and we never got see them share with each other anymore.  

 

We get a "what did I miss?" then nothing.

 

I'm bitter because from the promos, it looks like we won't get it this week either. Other will get the important character beats, and I miss F/O, F/D & F/O/D so much.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Genki

[statsgirl]

Whatever happened to "This started with the three of us, it's time we got back to that"?

If I don't get decent O/D/F action soon, in various permutations, well, that's what twitter is for.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Responding here to the finances issue from the Spoiler thread ...

 

I really don't understand what kind of conversation Oliver and Thea had about their living arrangements. No one bothered to ask where each of them were living? So Oliver in Corto Maltese said hey Thea, come home with me. And Thea didn't ask where are you living these days at any point?

 

I understand there are some stuff that the show just considers "understood" but this is just ridiculous. In that scene where Thea tells Oliver she's not as broke as he is, she could have dropped a line about using her trust fund to get her own place (that's her place, right? The one Malcolm went to in the last episode?).

 

Team Arrow's budget should be mentioned, too. Based on the 2.5 comics, they have to buy equipment. I can handwave the utilities and say Felicity hacked into the city grid or something. But would it kill them to add a line that would explain how they are still able to finance their activities? Or is this another something that will be explained at some point in the comics (I'm beginning to hate those comics).

 

These are small details, yes, but when left unanswered, they do pull you out of the story they are telling on screen. That's what happens to me anyway.

[statsgirl]

 In that scene where Thea tells Oliver she's not as broke as he is, she could have dropped a line about using her trust fund to get her own place (that's her place, right? The one Malcolm went to in the last episode?).

 

She doesn't have a trust fund because she refused to sign the papers to convert it before the city fell apart so when Isabel crashed QC, she took the Queen's money too.

 

So the only people left with money are Malcolm Merlyn, who helped destroy QC because Moira was associated with the destruction of the Glades, and Thea, who wouldn't sign the documents to save some money for her family, including Oliver because she was having a hissy fit. I'm bitter because that's really unfair but never addressed in the show.

[KirkB]

Team Arrow's budget should be mentioned, too. Based on the 2.5 comics, they have to buy equipment. I can handwave the utilities and say Felicity hacked into the city grid or something. But would it kill them to add a line that would explain how they are still able to finance their activities? Or is this another something that will be explained at some point in the comics (I'm beginning to hate those comics).

 

While not crucial, I do think this needs to be brought up on the show (the comics, as far as I'm concerned, aren't canon, if it's not on screen it's not canon, and I would count director/EP quotes and interviews as well), even if just in a throwaway line. Yes, the electricity could be explained away, but beyond that all the computers and other tech had to be replaced thanks to Slade, Oliver and Roy need suits and bows and lots and lots of arrows, some of them advanced and presumably expensive, replaced on a regular basis. All this stuff could be swept under the rug through QC when Oliver was in charge but now they are apparently pulling all of this stuff out of thin air and the producers expect us to just roll with it because it's not important. Well no, it's not, the show functions perfectly fine without us having any such answers but that doesn't make it any less frustrating.

Edited November 4, 2014 by KirkB