Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I personally believe they originally planned to replace Laurel with Sara - everything was set up that way.  But for some reason (theories abound as to why), they got shut down on that in the second half of the season, and thus we get Sara heading back to the LoA, Laurel gleefully accepting her jacket, and then Sara getting shot off the roof in the S3 premiere. 

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So so so much hate for that scene. 🤯

It was completely uncalled for. That scene and the part where fake-Sara was telling Laurel something like ‘I didn’t have to die’ - essentially being the audience there - were total WTFs. 

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Yeah, I personally believe they originally planned to replace Laurel with Sara - everything was set up that way.  But for some reason (theories abound as to why), they got shut down on that in the second half of the season, and thus we get Sara heading back to the LoA, Laurel gleefully accepting her jacket, and then Sara getting shot off the roof in the S3 premiere. 

I remember commenting during a S2 binge that the first half makes so much more sense if you look at it like they are moving Felicity into the love interest role and Sara into the Black Canary role. As for Laurel, it really seemed like she was being set up to leave or go villain. 

[tennisgurl]

I fully think that Sara existed to be part of Laurels Black Canary origin story, and to add some drama and plot twists with Oliver and his backstory as well, and the writers were shocked and unprepared by her popularity with the audience, and the massive backlash to her death. They expected her to be killed off in a shock death to get Laurel to be the "real" Black Canary, and that was all they had planned for her. However, her death was a perfect storm of awful and fan backlash. If you weren't there, its hard to really get the RAGE of the fans when Sara was unceremonious killed off, not only being a well written and performed badass with an intriguingly dark backstory, she was also one of the first bisexual characters on a superhero show that existed to do more than be killed off or be evil, and one of the most kickass woman in the series. Then they killed her right at a time when a lot of social media attention was going to the "Bury Your Gay" trend in killing off LGBTQ characters off in pointless ways was really starting to get play, and Laurel was at the lowest of her popularity as a character. I have no idea why they thought any of this was a good idea, but when they saw the massive backlash, and it never really went away, they brought her back and sent her over to Legends. If I remember correctly actually, LoT was supposed to be mostly an Atom spin off, but it got retooled to fit in all of the characters around the Arrowverse that the writers didnt want to get rid of, but had no idea what to do with. Arrow tried to make Laurel work a million times, and it never really took off. 

Its really kind if funny. Laurel was killed off in an even worse way than her sister was (stabbed in the gut while frozen to make her dad upset), while Sara is now the main character of her own spin off show. 

[statsgirl]

I think they wanted Sara truly dead -- killed by Thea and then falling off a building -- so that Laurel's rise to Black Canary wouldn't be impeded by people calling for Sara to come back.  I believe she would have stayed dead if Ray had been a bigger hit because they were planning a spin-off around him.  But unlike Barry Allen, Ray wasn't popular enough to have his own show so they brought back Sara from the dead, added a few more characters, and made it Legends of Tomorrow instead of The Atom.

[tennisgurl]

I shudder to the think of a world without Legends of Tomorrow, so I guess their stupid choice to off Sara and give her Black Canary mantel to her sister was a very convoluted blessing in disguise. Truly Beebo works in mysterious ways. 

[BkWurm1]

There were rumors that Katie Cassidy got the lawyers involved and made them make good on promises about her becoming the Black Canary otherwise I'm not sure they planned on killing Sara off.  Sending her away, sure, I mean, Arrow really doesn't have a place for a fully realized BC on it.  But leaving out any plans for Sara, Laurel wasn't positioned IMO as ready to take up the mantle of the Canary when Sara died.  And her "journey" into putting on the mask was one of the most hamfisted tales told on the series.  Completely rushed and not in line with the standards set by any other existing hero. (Before or since IMO) 

But something seemed to change there at the end of season two and that damned jacket.  The smile KC has putting it on, it's not in the script.  She's told fans at cons she just couldn't stop smiling during that scene. You know, the scene where she's supposed to be saying goodbye to her sister who has traded her freedom to return to the life as a killer under the control of Ras al Guhl, the very things she'd been ready to kill herself over rather than go back just a few short months ago.  It was not supposed to be a happy moment IMO.  But there you have it.  Sara is killed in the next episodes and KC gets to don the mask.  Yeah, I'll never buy there weren't behind the scenes stuff.  That at least fast forwarded it if nothing else.  

And then the more telling thing.  Once that's done, they pretty much shove her in the background and don't use her for anything until....well you'll find out.  Also not so coincidentally, while shoved in the background not doing anything was the most I liked that Laurel.  

Edited January 8, 2019 by BkWurm1

[Genki]

Don't forgot there was an emphasis made  both on and off-screen that Sarah was the Canary but Laurel was the Black Canary. 🙄

[shantown]

13 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Yeah, I personally believe they originally planned to replace Laurel with Sara - everything was set up that way.  But for some reason (theories abound as to why), they got shut down on that in the second half of the season, and thus we get Sara heading back to the LoA, Laurel gleefully accepting her jacket, and then Sara getting shot off the roof in the S3 premiere. 

If there's anywhere (PTV or elsewhere) that has these theories collected somewhere, I'd love a push in the right direction!
 

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Then they killed her right at a time when a lot of social media attention was going to the "Bury Your Gay" trend in killing off LGBTQ characters off in pointless ways was really starting to get play, and Laurel was at the lowest of her popularity as a character.

There's a whole study here somewhere about the CW and the "Bury Your Gays"  trend and their re-use of actors in multiple series or promotion of actors who just aren't clicking. I know nothing about "the biz" but from an outside perspective it's just so puzzling sometimes.
 

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

There were rumors that Katie Cassidy got the lawyers involved and made them make good on promises about her becoming the Black Canary otherwise I'm not sure they planned on killing Sara off.   

 

There's BTS stuff going on all the time we're not privvy too, but this was really a 180 on what the direction of the show and several characters had been when they killed Sara. To the point where I looked back to make sure I hadn't accidentally skipped forward a couple episodes and missed something. It also just really sours me on Katie Cassidy, which is a bummer. 

Not that I wanted Arrow to be a law procedural, but the contrast of how Laurel worked with CNRI or the DA's office to serve justice versus Oliver's method was something I think they could have explored more. I felt they never really utilized her as a close friend to Oliver, but a "professional" antagonist in the sense of their jobs. I don't write for TV but sometimes it seems like they throw away buildable stories in favor of the dumbest possible choice.

Many thanks to all for the feedback! I'm enjoying catching up and better understanding/recognizing some of these characters that have popped up in crossovers and other shows!

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, Genki said:

Don't forgot there was an emphasis made  both on and off-screen that Sarah was the Canary but Laurel was the Black Canary. 🙄

I think more off-screen than on.  Didn’t recently Cisco call Sara “the first Black Canary”?  But yeah, that was the first onscreen acknowledgment.

I know opinions will differ, and I’m certainly not trying to dissuade anyone, but just for me, they went too far with the Black Canary thing with Sara to believe it was all just a planned “gotcha”, as much as I know how MG likes his nonsensical setups.  The costume, the Canary Cry devices, the Clocktower, SIn, the LoA training, paralleling her journey with Oliver’s during S2.... Changing direction to make Laurel the BC meant all of that had to be recreated (in substandard fashion IMO) for Laurel.  She never could measure up to what they’d already done for Sara.  

I think whatever happened happened after Birds of Prey was written - that line “once you let the darkness in it never comes out.”  I think that was supposed to foreshadow something - but instead we got the abrupt swerve at the end of the season and then “you have a light inside you that Sara never had”. 🤯

(Just to be clear, I never blamed Felicity for that line - it was just too obviously a Writer Message to the Audience.  Just like Thea in.....well, you’ll see. 😄)

[calliope1975]

I love Felicity Megan Smoak to bits, and she might be my favorite character ever, but I will never forgive her for convincing Oliver he needed a team. Especially not NTA. 

[Mary0360]

3 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I love Felicity Megan Smoak to bits, and she might be my favorite character ever, but I will never forgive her for convincing Oliver he needed a team. Especially not NTA. 

Yep. She also saved Curtis job in season 4 when the board wanted to fire him. Even though he was good in season 4, we could have been spared him now if she'd just let him be fired. And didn't she discover and pick Wild Dog and Dinah as potential recruits as well? Felicity why do you hurt us like this? 

Shes probably also going to be the one to convince Oliver to embrace New Green Arrow who will also probably be the worst/annoying and dosed with terrible acting. 

[insomniadreams88]

Bringing over from the relationship thread:

12 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

If I had to rank Olivers love interest from best to worst it'd go:

5. Susan- I think Carly Pope was a good actress and it could have been a good role/relationship but it was just so terribly written and executed. Plus it was basically a stop gap before reuniting Olicity which just made it feel pointless. However, it did provide the amusement of Matt Mitivich, Chris E Hayner and the guy from Tv Guide being scandalised over Thea setting Susan up for plagiarism. So for that alone I'm grateful for the relationship.

My problem with Susan never had anything to do with her being any sort of threat to Olicity because she wasn't and the show made that clear. However, her presence and how Oliver acted because of her actually made me hate him. Remember those dark days of S5?

I couldn't stand that Oliver would actually date a woman who almost cost both Thea and Lance their jobs* and defend her and insist she could be trusted all while she was complaining that she couldn't write an article exposing him to his face ... and for some reason we weren't supposed to see her as shady. 

I was also annoyed that Oliver didn't seem to even think about the fact that Susan knowing his identity could affect everyone else on the team. I remember even kind of feeling bad for Dinah at the time because they had just basically dragged her to Star City because of her meta ability and Oliver's stupidity could have landed her in some serious trouble. Oh, the days when I didn't hate Dinah. 

*The show seemed to act like her first episode never happened. I sometimes actually wondered if there was a conversation in the writers room in which someone said, "Hey, remember when Susan was introduced and -- " and MG interrupted and said, "No, that episode never happened. We first meet Susan when Human Target is pretending to be Oliver and then tells Oliver to date her, which is a great start to a relationship." 

[Starfish35]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I shudder to the think of a world without Legends of Tomorrow, so I guess their stupid choice to off Sara and give her Black Canary mantel to her sister was a very convoluted blessing in disguise. Truly Beebo works in mysterious ways. 

Lol. 😂 Yeah, if I have to choose between Sara as BC on Arrow and Sara as Captain Lance on Legends, I’ll choose the latter every time.

I just think there was a perfect alternative out there where Sara kept the Black Canary mantle and still went to Legends and Laurel did....something else, thus freeing Arrow from the endless parade of BCs and giving Sara the title that should have been hers all along.  But yeah, realistically Sara staying BC would probably have meant her staying tied to Arrow, and I’d rather have her on Legends.  

[Featherhat]

I just about hit the roof with the "a light inside you Sara never had". Because seriously the fact that Sara was still half way human, and remorseful about joining a death cult (under pain of execution) proves she had a gigantic light (as does Oliver). And that's before everything on LOT, which I would take any day over being Arrow's BC. Laurel also went through a lot but it pales in comparison to watching her sister go through literal hell and back. Which was one of the problems with E1LL in general, a lot of tell and little show. 

I seriously had no idea how Oliver who had previously proved to be obsessed with anything and everyone to do with Thea but defending a woman who deliberately tried to sabotage both of them, including his secret that he had just killed to protect made no sense what so ever. He must have been really unhappy Felicity was attempting to move on a very sexually frustrated. But even that doesn't cut it. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I seriously had no idea how Oliver who had previously proved to be obsessed with anything and everyone to do with Thea but defending a woman who deliberately tried to sabotage both of them, including his secret that he had just killed to protect made no sense what so ever. He must have been really unhappy Felicity was attempting to move on a very sexually frustrated. But even that doesn't cut it. 

I don't know that's actually consistent with how they write Oliver.  He automatically assumes any woman he sleeps with turns "good" afterwards. 

Slept with Helena, surprised by her betrayal still saw good in her through S1 and S2. 

Slept with Isabel even though Moira warned him that she was a bad person, Felicity didn't like her and the woman was blatantly trying to steal his company, thought she would turn "good" signed his shares or whatever over to her when in a rush to save Thea and she stole the company right out from under him.  

Slept with Susan who screwed over Thea and him very early on, stalked him, tried to seduce someone she was reporting on, yeah, there's no ethics violation there (just ask that General and his Reporter mistress), gathering evidence on him behind his back, even after sleeping with him but, he trusted her and thought she'd never betray him, even after she flat out said she was going to publish the info that he was GA.

Oliver is an absolute idiot when it comes to women or more to the point when the plot calls for it because these writers are very lazy and always fallback on Oliver being stupid to advance their plots

Edited January 9, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[ladylaw99]

My oldest child is now old enough to watch Arrow and asked me to binge watch the show to catch up to watch live with me. 

It is interesting to re-watch this show with someone else.   My child is more Marvel than DC, so it is hilarious to watch him.

So we have made it to Season 4B, Lord help me get through this part of the season.  He  thought Ra's was a weak villain and so far doesn't like Dark.  Magic doesn't belong on Arrow.  

He has enjoyed the show for the most part but he is definitely his mother's son.  He loves OTA, Felicity is his girl, Black Canary is a joke (his words not mine) and Oliver is his favorite character even thou he is so flawed and at times his actions don't make sense.  I got alot of "Why is Oliver not thinking and trusting the right people" and don't even get him started on the whole William situation.  Just from the crossover he thinks Oliver is as dumb as a rock for not telling Felicity about his son.  I can't wait until I have to reash episode 4 x 15 and 4 x 16., this is going to be a hoot.

After reading the latest description, I am bitter the show I once loved is becoming unrecognizable.  It is focusing on everything I hate.  I mean, I need to obviously let the episode air because the description doesn't always match the episode but it doesn't get me excited.

Now watching other seasons again, I realize now some of them weren't so bad compared to what we are getting now.  

I am interested to see what my son will think of NTA and pod Diggle (he will hate what they have done to Diggle).

[KenyaJ]

1 hour ago, ladylaw99 said:

I got alot of "Why is Oliver not thinking and trusting the right people" and don't even get him started on the whole William situation.  Just from the crossover he thinks Oliver is as dumb as a rock for not telling Felicity about his son. I can't wait until I have to reash episode 4 x 15 and 4 x 16., this is going to be a hoot.

Mostly, I just want to congratulate you for raising a son who doesn't think it's acceptable for a man to fail to disclose his secret child to his fiancé.

Also, I know this is the bitterness thread, not the "things I like about Arrow" thread, so I'll say that I'm bitter that 415, which is hot garbage, also includes two of my favorite Olicity scenes, the physical therapy scene and the post-PT scene in the parking garage. Those scenes are so sweet, and I wish they could've been tacked on to the end of 414, so I could avoid 415 altogether. 416, I just love unreservedly. I re-watched it yesterday, in fact.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Also, I know this is the bitterness thread, not the "things I like about Arrow" thread, so I'll say that I'm bitter that 415, which is hot garbage, also includes two of my favorite Olicity scenes, the physical therapy scene and the post-PT scene in the parking garage. Those scenes are so sweet, and I wish they could've been tacked on to the end of 414, so I could avoid 415 altogether. 416, I just love unreservedly. I re-watched it yesterday, in fact.

Yeah, those scenes were good, but they were a real problem for me in 415, and not just for the reason you listed. I feel like a major problem with 414/415 was timing.

How much time passed between Curtis giving Felicity the chip at the end of 414 and her having it implanted and starting PT for her to realistically be able to possibly walk at the beginning of 415? Wasn't it a day or something? There should have been at least a few days/a week, right? But no, William was kidnapped at the same time, and he couldn't have been with Darhk for even a week before anyone did anything, so we got that mess. 

[KenyaJ]

Yeah, the timeline was a complete mess, like everything else about that storyline. Also, Felicity walked away from Oliver (literally!) at the end of 415, but at the beginning of 416, Oliver remarks about how amazing her progress in physical therapy has been. So how long was it between when she left him and when they packed up all of his stuff and he officially moved out?

[shantown]

Y'all are not making me excited to get to the second half of S4 in my binge watch!

[KenyaJ]

LOL. Sorry! I'm not gonna lie. 415, 418, and 419 are some of my least favorite episodes. But 420 is one of my faves and I really like 421-423 as well, so there's good stuff to look forward to. 

[Starfish35]

It was bad. 😬 Sorry! But that half-season was what broke me as far as Arrow was concerned. I think I only watched three non-crossover episodes of Arrow after season four (#510-#512), and those only because I was curious about Dinah.

But credit where credit’s due I suppose - I only made it through two seasons each of Flash and Supergirl.  Although in retrospect I kind of wish I’d quit after the season two finale, and only watched Sara’s resurrection episodes.  

Well, no, I take it back.  There’s a few episodes I would have hated to miss - Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak being at the top of the list.  But yeah.  

Edited January 9, 2019 by Starfish35

[ladylaw99]

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

Mostly, I just want to congratulate you for raising a son who doesn't think it's acceptable for a man to fail to disclose his secret child to his fiancé.

Also, I know this is the bitterness thread, not the "things I like about Arrow" thread, so I'll say that I'm bitter that 415, which is hot garbage, also includes two of my favorite Olicity scenes, the physical therapy scene and the post-PT scene in the parking garage. Those scenes are so sweet, and I wish they could've been tacked on to the end of 414, so I could avoid 415 altogether. 416, I just love unreservedly. I re-watched it yesterday, in fact.

Thanks Kenyaj

I am a proud mom.

I have all boys and it is not easy to raise children. 

After losing his father this year he values even more the relationship between a parent and child.  He couldn't understand the lack of respect for Felicity in this situation.  This effected her life just as much as Oliver.  Oliver lost alot of brownie points with my son because of this issue.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Because you have 3 main actors who have carried the filming burden for 7 years and no longer want to spend 15 hours days filming?

Yeah, I complain a lot about NTA and the FF crew but I get why they exist, sort of. Aging shows do this kind of cast expansion all the time to give the main actors a break (and if you’re the CW and can’t or won’t pay your actors what they ask, maybe you offer time off instead).

However, I’m bitter because of the mess they’ve made of NTA. I just want them all to die gruesome deaths at this point. They’ve made it really difficult for me to watch the show to the point I’ve started skipping episodes and just watching the Olicity clips. There’s no OTA at all so Digg gets skipped, too. 

And now there’s an FF crew who, while they’re not quite as annoying, are just a waste of time as well, IMO. 

[Mellowyellow]

What cracks me up is on when I read comments on the Arrow twitter page and people comment about the lack of Olicity, OTA etc and someone always jumps in to give a lecture on how you're not a real fan if you only watch it for Olicity.

I'm thinking "We are all watching a third rate show on the CW ffs. There is no superiority to claim here!"

Do the lead's screen times usually reduce this much though even for CW? I remember TVD and The Originals and it seemed like the main characters Elena, Stephen, Damon, Caroline, Bonnie, Klaus, Elijah etc were all in it a lot. It didn't seem as noticeable to me cuz I sometimes only watch Felicity plus Diggle scenes and there are barely any to watch! It's all.....junk!

I honestly don't remember TVD and Originals being full of junk cast even if I didn't like the plot.

[Mary0360]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

What cracks me up is on when I read comments on the Arrow twitter page and people comment about the lack of Olicity, OTA etc and someone always jumps in to give a lecture on how you're not a real fan if you only watch it for Olicity.

I'm thinking "We are all watching a third rate show on the CW ffs. There is no superiority to claim here!"

This tweet pretty much sums up me right now unless the writers can get their act together: 

I make no apologies. 

[Genki]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

What cracks me up is on when I read comments on the Arrow twitter page and people comment about the lack of Olicity, OTA etc and someone always jumps in to give a lecture on how you're not a real fan if you only watch it for Olicity.

I'm thinking "We are all watching a third rate show on the CW ffs. There is no superiority to claim here!"

Do the lead's screen times usually reduce this much though even for CW? I remember TVD and The Originals and it seemed like the main characters Elena, Stephen, Damon, Caroline, Bonnie, Klaus, Elijah etc were all in it a lot. It didn't seem as noticeable to me cuz I sometimes only watch Felicity plus Diggle scenes and there are barely any to watch! It's all.....junk!

I honestly don't remember TVD and Originals being full of junk cast even if I didn't like the plot.

If we're only watching for Olicity, its probably because the show isn't giving us enough other stuff to be invested in. It was there but the show has either squandered it, or killed it off. Take for example the Flash Forwards this season, there was a lot of excitement and good will for them initially, but now many people are over them, for many reasons. For me they have taken away hope for the character's futures (even if Maya is the Olicitot, something must have gone really wrong for Oliver and Felicity and the Family) as well as featuring a characters which we aren't invested in. I can understand dragging out the reveal of what's up with OTA, but they haven't balanced it out with story elements to keep me invested, hopefully there is a way to turn it around, but I not sure I trust the writers enough to do so.

With the Vampire Diaries they had a lot of characters you could root for besides the main love triangle stuff which the show was based upon, there was always drama and they gave storylines to cast member that could handle it. Beside my main ship on the show, it was still nice to see characters interacting with each other they built up friendships as well as relationships, I loved Bonnie and Damon's Friendship. When Klaus spun off to the originals I could still enjoy Karoline's story arc as well as Klaus' separately because there were lots of other things to get invested in. When there was annoying or bad stuff, and there was plenty, there was also a lot of other storylines/character are I could get into (also I binged the last 2 seasons on Netflix). Arrow simply doesn't have that anymore, binging Arrow leads to a lot of fast-forwarding, which I don't do with other shows.

I remember last season of Arrow being excited to see Nyssa during Thea's farewell episode, because as stupid as LOA storyline was it wasn't as bad as NTA. There was a lot of stuff that was squandered IMO, because of plot or because of DC mandated it and as a non-comics person "Because Comics "is not enough of a reason for me to enjoy or accept something which I simply don't. When a show is done well I'm watching for a lot more elements than a Ship, but I'm a shipper at heart so I always like that element being in my shows, as a little enhancement. 

Also the talk about "true fans" is bullshit, if you are watching and invested in something in the show, you're a fan. Gatekeeping won't cause the writers to give you what you want and expecting a comic to survive as live action based solely on accurately recreating  each panel and plot point isn't going to cut it. There simply isn't enough in comics for a 3D element like television. The same can be said for books too. I'm a reader and I get excited at thought of my favourite books being turned into movies or television, but I have to accept that there will be changes and moments I loved or deemed important may not be so in a different medium. I either have to accept it and move on or stop  watching, most of the time I peace out because if I'm not enjoying it, then I will rather forget about the TV show/Movie  and continue to enjoy the books instead.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Genki said:

I remember last season of Arrow being excited to see Nyssa during Thea's farewell episode, because as stupid as LOA storyline was it wasn't as bad as NTA. There was a lot of stuff that was squandered IMO, because of plot or because of DC mandated it and as a non-comics person "Because Comics "is not enough of a reason for me to enjoy or accept something which I simply don't. When a show is done well I'm watching for a lot more elements than a Ship, but I'm a shipper at heart so I always like that element being in my shows, as a little enhancement. 

Not only were the NTA horribly unlikeable in season 6, but they didn't have anything interesting going on with them.  All they had was their bitching and watered down B team action.  Technically Dinah had Vinnie plus work, Rene had Zoe, and Curtis had the new boyfriend (and could have had more than one bitch filled work session on Helix) but Vinnie was big part of what went wrong with Dinah, Zoe did nothing more than basically high five her dad and leave each time we saw her and I couldn't care less about Curtis and his boyfriend.  Everytime we saw NTA together it was the same: we're great, Oliver's the worst, an unfunny joke, it's up to us, rIp on Oliver some more, repeat.  

[kes0704]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Everytime we saw NTA together it was the same: we're great, Oliver's the worst, an unfunny joke, it's up to us, rIp on Oliver some more, repeat.  

They carried that pattern on for so long that I now find it impossible to believe that Oliver would ever return to being friends with them.

Mystical resurrection pits, I can believe. Magic villain, sure. People who can fly, shrink and run super fast, no problem. Everyone being firm friends with NTA after the events of S6? Uhmm...nope. Oliver definitely earns his superhero title for me in even attempting that amazing feat. :)  

[Mellowyellow]

I watched and rewatched Madam Secretary's 100th and 101 Ep (2 parter). Here is a show that does not rely on shippers for free publicity and buzz (I am not even sure they have shippers), yet they actually paid homage to their main couple on the show in their 100th and devoted a good amount of screen time to it. It was super cute and was what the relationship deserved.

I am so so so bitter about Arrow's 100th and now after watching Madam Secretary I am madder than ever. The disrespect to Olicity fans 😡😤😡😤.

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

I am so so so bitter about Arrow's 100th and now after watching Madam Secretary I am madder than ever. The disrespect to Olicity fans 😡😤😡😤.

I never out right hated the 100th. I respected the concept but it wasn't executed great especially within the context of the overall storyline of crossover. It felt like a pointless stand alone episode with the unfortunate side effect of convincing a certain section of fans that Alien mind rape is Olivers true romantic feelings. But there were some moments of the episode I didn't mind. The Olicity flash backs for instance and I liked the seeing Moira and Robert and Queen Manor again. Plus at the time I liked Green Diggle- even though season 6 ruined that for me.

 

What pisses me off about the 100th in hindsight is the fact that we got stuck with an episode that has to be worked into the crossover and in the end didn't even add much to the crossover and then fast forward a few years and a certain other show alters everybody else's schedules to accomodate their 100th. I mean if that option was available why couldn't Arrow have had a 100th seperate so then maybe they wouldn't have had to be restricted by trying to workout a storyline that includes Aliens on a show that doesn't normally deal with aliens or accomodate characters from other shows so that they could focus on their own characters. 

[BkWurm1]

I'm currently in standby mode waiting to find out if I'll be bitter over their 150th or not.  

[jay741982]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm currently in standby mode waiting to find out if I'll be bitter over their 150th or not.  

Wouldnt be surprised if we are bitter after that episode as well

[Mary0360]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm currently in standby mode waiting to find out if I'll be bitter over their 150th or not.  

Isn't Marc writing it? So there's a good chance you could be bitter. It could go either way. 

[way2interested]

MG still wrote "You will always be the love of my life," and gave Olicity a whole subplot in the middle of the crossover, so I'd still hold out on throwing it away already, yeah.

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, way2interested said:

gave Olicity a whole subplot in the middle of the crossover,

Which was that?

[way2interested]

57 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Which was that?

In 709. It resolved 708's problem and had a mini arc for Felicity (beginning--set-up, figuring out she didn't know her husband is a different person literally; middle--Felicity questions the future of their relationship if she couldn't even recognize Oliver, gets a pep talk from Caitlin; resolution-- Oliver comforts Felicity with the knowledge that they will always love each other, a speech that gets Felicity to recognize Oliver and resolve the tensions from 708, wrapping up both Oliver's side of the plot in 708 and Felicity's side in 709). 709 was basically Felicity's side to the 708 argument

Even arguing that it was small or needed more (fair, and enough to get bitter about to keep on thread, especially since from last year all crossovers need more Iris and Felicity teaming up and 708 should have had more exploration of this plot) ignores the fact that no other Arrowverse character/relationship (except for arguably Clois, but even then they are regulars nor did they really go through any arc to get to an ending; Kate, similar case; and WestAllen, who didn't get an arc as much as a moment to set up Olicity in the 2nd episode, a moment for them, and a moment to set up a future plot for a future episode) got that kind of focus outside Barry and Oliver. Even with way less time and arguably more important things to do at least where the crossover was concerned, MG/Arrow/the EPs decided to make sure Olicity got something important, so that's something I think should be considered when thinking about 712. Not saying it's a guarantee or anything, but more of a counter to the automatic expectation of bitterness for it.

Edited January 13, 2019 by way2interested

[statsgirl]

I missed crediting that scene because I was so angry at the gaslighting that Iris knew immediately that it wasn't the real Barry because they are the bestest ever, and making Felicity feel like crap because she didn't intuit that it wasn't Oliver instantly. And then she had to deal with Oliver keeping things from her again when everyone else knew.

As others have pointed out, they pretty much had to resolve the Olicity fight in that episode because unlike The Flash, Arrow was going into a six week hiatus and they had to resolve the fight before then so that viewers would come back in January.

WestAllen may not have got an arc but they got at least as much time as Olicity if not more.

I'm tired of Felicity getting dumped on this season.

Edited January 13, 2019 by statsgirl

[DeadZeus]

As someone who really enjoys seeing Oliver suit up and kick ass, the show is starting to lose me...

I long for the lvl of season 1/2 of Oliver kicking ass pretty badly. I don't understand why they don't let him cut loose and kick ass like during the seasons that made the show popular…
Especially considering Oliver's possible fate.

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

I don't understand why they don't let him cut loose and kick ass like during the seasons that made the show popular…

Because Amell likes to do his own stunts, but he’s also 5/6 years older than he was in season 1/2  and not training like he used to. (Or not training at all this year because of an injury from an extracurricular hobby)

[DeadZeus]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 7:46 PM, lemotomato said:

Because Amell likes to do his own stunts, but he’s also 5/6 years older than he was in season 1/2  and not training like he used to. (Or not training at all this year because of an injury from an extracurricular hobby)

Well i guess that's a valid reason but knowing the reason doesn't make my viewing experience any better… If he can't keep up then they need to use more stunt doubles to keep the action going…
Ditching the action is gonna lose viewers. Like me.

[insomniadreams88]

I think the reason I’m bitter about not getting enough Felicity and the lack of acknowledgement that she too is a hero in the 150th is that the entire season, it’s been, all these masks are heroes, in the present and FF.

Meanwhile, because of the story they want to tell in the FF, we keep getting, “oh, Felicity totally went evil” and then in the present, Diggle’s comment about her maybe not being a hero at the end of it because of what she was doing to get Diaz. 

Felicity keeps saying everyone else is a hero. I just wish someone had said the same about her in the milestone episode. 

[tv echo]

Nostalgically remembering when TPTB recognized the importance of OTA to Arrow's success - and bitter that the 150th episode forgot...

May 8, 2013 Collider - Geoff Johns: "One of my favorite episodes is, I don’t think it’s aired yet, but there’s this big sequence with Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak and Diggle, when I saw those characters in that episode, I thought I could see this show going forever." 

Edited February 5, 2019 by tv echo

[shantown]

Okay, I was so excited to watch this show after getting hooked on Supergirl, then Flash, then Legends. Figured it only made sense to watch the show that started it all. And I whizzed through the first four seasons. Did you know, counting crossovers and episodes where Arrow characters appear, that there are 104 Arrowverse episodes to watch in the first 4 seasons? That's a lot. But it was so GREAT! OTA was incredible in every combination. Thea and Roy and Sin would have been an amazing Teen Arrow squad. I hated, then loved, then hated Captain Lance. Even Curtis wasn't so bad when he came on board. BUT OH MY GOSH I GOT TO SEASON FIVE AND EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE. I watched 4 seasons in about two months. That's an insane pace, I know. But I have spent the last two weeks starting season 5 and I am only 5 episodes in and it's AWFUL. What happened to Diggle and Felicity being friends? Is there a reason they can't be in the same damn scene together? Why are Oliver and Felicity apart? Why aren't Arrow and Spartan in the field together? I know everyone is probably already over the loss of OTA, but I am just getting here and it's ridiculous. And Wild Dog is enough to make me quit the show right now. It wouldn't be so bad if I knew I had to just get through this season and all would be right again but I peeked in on the 150th episode and saw a whole bunch of Wild Dog and no OTA. So what the hell is the point of continuing the binge watch?? I might bust through the crossovers once more just to have a better Arrow perspective of them (Tommy Merlyn, we hardly knew ye) but is there really any point to slogging through seasons 5 and 6 (and 7) if the show never gets any better? Ugh. I'm so mad right now.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, shantown said:

Okay, I was so excited to watch this show after getting hooked on Supergirl, then Flash, then Legends. Figured it only made sense to watch the show that started it all. And I whizzed through the first four seasons. Did you know, counting crossovers and episodes where Arrow characters appear, that there are 104 Arrowverse episodes to watch in the first 4 seasons? That's a lot. But it was so GREAT! OTA was incredible in every combination. Thea and Roy and Sin would have been an amazing Teen Arrow squad. I hated, then loved, then hated Captain Lance. Even Curtis wasn't so bad when he came on board. BUT OH MY GOSH I GOT TO SEASON FIVE AND EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE. I watched 4 seasons in about two months. That's an insane pace, I know. But I have spent the last two weeks starting season 5 and I am only 5 episodes in and it's AWFUL. What happened to Diggle and Felicity being friends? Is there a reason they can't be in the same damn scene together? Why are Oliver and Felicity apart? Why aren't Arrow and Spartan in the field together? I know everyone is probably already over the loss of OTA, but I am just getting here and it's ridiculous. And Wild Dog is enough to make me quit the show right now. It wouldn't be so bad if I knew I had to just get through this season and all would be right again but I peeked in on the 150th episode and saw a whole bunch of Wild Dog and no OTA. So what the hell is the point of continuing the binge watch?? I might bust through the crossovers once more just to have a better Arrow perspective of them (Tommy Merlyn, we hardly knew ye) but is there really any point to slogging through seasons 5 and 6 (and 7) if the show never gets any better? Ugh. I'm so mad right now.

Your post was both a reassuring affirment of all I have complained about and a sad reminder of all I complain about.  

Season five is tough.  Not going to lie. But the newbies are not so obnoxious in the second half of season five and there are some very good episodes in the back half as well.  In season six  toward the back of the season, the "new team Arrow" as the newbs came to be referred to, will make you want them dead.  Or at least that was my experience.  Oliver on the other hand is the best version of himself I think I'd seen in many seasons. (which still can't save him from plot induced dumb at the end)   And then there's some really bizarre stuff going on with Quenten that has to be watched to be believed.  If you like Olicity, you will find much to enjoy in season 6 and I think 7a had a lot to offer as well even while also making me shake my head and clench my teeth, but yeah, the newer cast members are still working my last nerves. 

I can't say don't watch.  I'm too attached to Oliver and Felicity and even Diggle to say that but there will be some pain for certain in the experience.  There will also be some really great moments.  We are available for therapy and to listen to any rages you feel to help you cope along the way.  I've been there.  I will be there again.  I'm pretty sure I'm not unique in this feeling. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by BkWurm1

[KenyaJ]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I can't say don't watch.  I'm too attached to Oliver and Felicity and even Diggle to say that but there will be some pain for certain in the experience.  There will also be some really great moments.  We are available for therapy and to listen to any rages you feel to help you cope along the way.  I've been there.  I will be there again.  I'm pretty sure I'm not unique in this feeling. 

No, you're not. I said the other day on Twitter that Olicity is holding me hostage to this show, and nothing has ever been more true. I actually tried to quit the show after 505, but stupid brought me back with 510. And as flat, uninteresting and infuriating as I find the show right now, I still tune in every week because I love these two so much.

Anyway, S5 is a slog, but I really liked 510 and 512. Everything from 517-523 is good too. The show and Oliver felt like themselves again once he and Felicity were allowed to act like two people who used to be engaged. 519 is really good, the first half of 522 is super fun, and I think 520 is probably my favorite episode of the series. 

Like @BkWurm1 said, S6 Oliver is my favorite of the series, even though he makes some unfortunate martyr-ish decisions at the end of the season. OTA makes a great comeback in the middle of the season, though it goes downhill rapidly around 615. And if you're like many of us, you'll spend every moment after 609 wishing death upon the newbies. Honestly, I would skip their scenes altogether, even the ones especially the ones with OTA, because they are infuriating. But Olicity are perfect throughout the entire season, and 604, 611, and 618 are certifiably great, IMO. 

IDEK what to tell you about S7. It's a frustrating, directionless mess right now. I'm praying the second half gets better, but certainly not holding my breath.

[apinknightmare]

I'm still so mad that Oliver and Felicity left William at school over Christmas. What even is the point of that? Even if the writers needed a delayed confrontation so that they could have their drama onscreen instead of during hiatus, why not just have William ask to stay at school over the break? That would make more sense! O/F would allow it because they feel guilty about his life's upheaval, and he went to great lengths to hide the fact that he'd been expelled! He could've just...wanted to stay because of that. It's so disappointing that these people are so plot-focused that they can't even take a second to be even a little bit NOT lazy and fix the slightest thing that could be changed in two simple sentences and doesn't make people look like assholes!

[shantown]

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Your post was both a reassuring affirment of all I have complained about and a sad reminder of all I complain about.  

Season five is tough.  Not going to lie. But the newbies are not so obnoxious in the second half of season five and there are some very good episodes in the back half as well.  In season six  toward the back of the season, the "new team Arrow" as the newbs came to be referred to, will make you want them dead.  Or at least that was my experience.  Oliver on the other hand is the best version of himself I think I'd seen in many seasons. (which still can't save him from plot induced dumb at the end)   And then there's some really bizarre stuff going on with Quenten that has to be watched to be believed.  If you like Olicity, you will find much to enjoy in season 6 and I think 7a had a lot to offer as well even while also making me shake my head and clench my teeth, but yeah, the newer cast members are still working my last nerves. 

I can't say don't watch.  I'm too attached to Oliver and Felicity and even Diggle to say that but there will be some pain for certain in the experience.  There will also be some really great moments.  We are available for therapy and to listen to any rages you feel to help you cope along the way.  I've been there.  I will be there again.  I'm pretty sure I'm not unique in this feeling. 

 

32 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Anyway, S5 is a slog, but I really liked 510 and 512. Everything from 517-523 is good too. The show and Oliver felt like themselves again once he and Felicity were allowed to act like two people who used to be engaged. 519 is really good, the first half of 522 is super fun, and I think 520 is probably my favorite episode of the series. 

Like @BkWurm1 said, S6 Oliver is my favorite of the series, even though he makes some unfortunate martyr-ish decisions at the end of the season. OTA makes a great comeback in the middle of the season, though it goes downhill rapidly around 615. And if you're like many of us, you'll spend every moment after 609 wishing death upon the newbies. Honestly, I would skip their scenes altogether, even the ones especially the ones with OTA, because they are infuriating. But Olicity are perfect throughout the entire season, and 604, 611, and 618 are certifiably great, IMO. 

IDEK what to tell you about S7. It's a frustrating, directionless mess right now. I'm praying the second half gets better, but certainly not holding my breath.

Okay, I'm sticking with it, if only to be in the trenches with everyone getting to complain in real time! Maybe a speedy binge watch will make the newbies more bearable, if I can sort of fly past it quickly maybe it won't be as painful. Hoping that the standout episodes/arcs you both mentioned are enough to keep me from throwing my laptop out a window. Right now I cheer a little every time one of the newbies gets punched, or shot, or hurt in anyway. That's not the emotion I want to have watching a superhero show!

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, shantown said:

Right now I cheer a little every time one of the newbies gets punched, or shot, or hurt in anyway. That's not the emotion I want to have watching a superhero show!

That's not going to change any time soon

 Well for me it's still around for Curtis. I ignore Dinah (bad actress is bad) and, I like Rene so I can only say that Curtis is the one that is annoying as all shit.

I actually liked S5, I thought it was a good season with a great villain. 

S6 was a mix of good/bad, the villain sucked and, well they kept telling me shit that they weren't showing. The biggest issue was something Arrow has suffered from S2, having a desired end result and having characters behave OOC or just plain stupid in order to force that ending. Plus there was a huge disconnect between what the show, showed me (as a viewer) and what the writers kept saying.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Morrigan2575