Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[EmilyBettFan]

6 minutes ago, Kymmi said:

Are there any episodes coming up that sound interesting?  I haven't seen the last 3 or 4 and haven't read much that makes me want to change that.  I saw the promo for this week - is Felicity even still on this show?

Yes she is. But I have noticed whoever in charge likes to minimize her appearances in promos. Ridiculous really.

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, Kymmi said:

Are there any episodes coming up that sound interesting?  I haven't seen the last 3 or 4 and haven't read much that makes me want to change that.  I saw the promo for this week - is Felicity even still on this show?

509,510, and 512 have been really good (ignoring the very ends of 509 and 512), so I actually recommend going back to see those and 511 wasn't actually that bad, just not too interesting. 513 is filler, 514 and 515 have aspects of the plot that I'm personally interested in, so idk YMMV. But yeah, Felicity's going to be in the subplots in the next two episodes, so she's not gone.

[LeighAn]

I've yet to have an episode or storyline I've outright hated this season. I'd call this season hit and miss. There been a lot of meh and waste of screen time but there's also so been some bright spots.

I liked mum and dad Olicity early in the season with the recruits and grumpy coach Queen, I enjoyed the Haven Rock Rory Felicity subplot and their friendship, I thought the Pronetheus/Billy twist was genuinely a shock and ambitious move, and this season gave us Mafia Mob Boss Queen Felicity, Felicity punching Laurel, Olicity training scene, Oliver saying goodbye to his parents, Sara kicking ass in a formal dress, Olicity hugging while a nuclear bomb goes off, Felicity punching Laurel, Olicity flashbacks, Diggle saying the OTA make each other better, and did I mention Felicity punches Laurel :p

[Mellowyellow]

I surprisingly really enjoyed the hug in 512. I'm not reading anything into it and I don't think it means they will get together but it was a nice surprise! I liked how after keeping her distance all this time Felicity ran to him and he looked a bit surprised but went with it.

I was SUPER bitter during the time the "Magic" scene was aired but now that I've worked over some of my issues with my Ship I am a giggling pile of mush when I see that scene again. 

[Darknight]

Laurel was so damn annoying. Why did they cast her? 

Ok Oliver and Felicity moved way too fast. I think they should've gave it at least another season or two. 

[ladylaw99]

I have enjoyed some aspects of season 5 but unfortunately I have disliked the majority of it. My biggest issue is I am finding  it boring. It has lost in my opinion what made it special. I decided to open up my mind and try to watch the show differently to see if I can enjoy it again. If that doesn't work then I will not watch live and ff the scenes I don't care for. Looks like apathy is just around the corner for me.

[JenMcSnark]

Oh my, this show is just so damn BORING now.  I just tried to watch 511 but found myself fastforwarding through 90% of it.  The only scenes that kept my attention were OTA + Rory.  Felicity and Rory seem to be the only good parts of the show.  Diggle I normally love, but just can't get with him acting like Felicity doesn't exist. 

They definitely have backtracked hard on the relationships they spent four years building.  I might be at the point of deleting my series recording.  I don't really have a desire to watch; I only check it out if the episode thread sounds interesting which usually it doesn't. I deleted last week's without even thinking about watching it. 

I used to love this show and OTA so much.  Sad. 

[kismet]

@JenMcSnark You're better than me. I haven't even watched 511 or 512. And I was obsessed with Bratva from the beginning. I can't even remember if I watched 510 or not. I did watch the gun one, but that I think was more for the live thread than the actual show.

[Starfish35]

I've only been back watching this show for three episodes now, and I'm just now remembering why I dumped it after last season.  I simply cannot deal with Oliver the moron.  Where is that Felicity and Friends show everyone was complaining about?  I'd much rather watch that show than the Adventures of Oliver the Idiot.  For three seasons now, always around this time of year, Oliver comes down with an absolutely raging case of PIS (plot-induced stupidity).  And I'm not sure I can deal with a third round, even for the crumbs of interesting things going on with the female characters of the show.  

Edited February 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[insomniadreams88]

You know what's made me bitter about Oliver being all, "you ruined her career" to Thea about Susan? He didn't seem to care what he did to Felicity's career in S2* - making her his EA without asking and then she was working at a tech store at the beginning of S3 after going to MIT and, going off that dossier or whatever it is, a very, very high IQ - or what Susan was doing to Thea's career in 503 - didn't Thea offer to resign? - this much. 

*I will probably forever be bitter about Felicity being Oliver's EA in S2 when I think about the fact that she's the smartest person on the show and we never saw anything that required her to be on the same floor as him during the day. 

[kismet]

I am not bitter that FS was his EA. It put them in closer proximity which to me was more enjoyable to watch. Also I think it was a way for OQ to have someone close to him that he trusted helping him run QC, when he clearly felt overwhelmed by being CEO. I thought it was more a testament to FS importance in his life, than as assessment of her skills. I also have a high respect for EAs, especially the way FS was portrayed as a trusted person. It wasn't just some secretarial job. Also it was only s2, and her IT job looked entry/low level, so perhaps EA was an upgrade. Now if they had kept her in the EA position beyond s2, I would have been bitter.

However, I am wicked bitter that is is now s5 and FS has never gotten a promotion based on her skills. I don't really count RP, because it came off as wanting to sleep with her or steal her knowledge, and he achieved both rather easily. There was never an acknowledgement from him for her contributions. And then to add insult to injury they gave her the CEO title as a backdoor we killed RP plot (bullshit). And then had the nerve to strip her of it for plot. They really could have kept FS as PT CEO, if the writers had any respect for her professional character.

Lastly, I am mostly bitter that there has been NOTHING for FS on the professional end this season. No trying to get back the company. No starting her own company. NOTHING! And that is insulting to have her simply coasting professionally because why, she's needed in the lair?? She was always able to balance professional & Arrow life before. Too busy with Billy, not buying it. Too sad about Havenrock, also bullshit.

But yeah, ruining Susan's career, not really on my blip of concern. OQ has ruined a lot of professional careers. Never promoting Dig to anything besides bodyguard. Not sticking around to convince TQ to sign the paperwork so they wouldn't lose their money & Verdent, essentially forcing TQ to rely on MM's dirty money. How about how much the GA has ruined QL's professional career? And yeah, OQ signed over QC for no good reason to his one-night stand which costs a lot of people their jobs. It destroyed his family company. SO Susan can just get in line. Perhaps she should have been more professional in the first place in how she treated TQ & the mayor's office. Just because she is now sleeping with OQ does not absolve her of her shady professional behavior.

[tv echo]

This season's "back to basics" version of Arrow has made one thing very clear to me - TPTB don't really understand (or have forgotten) what made S1 and S2 so well-received and well-liked.

Yes, better action sequences and better flashbacks were both key elements of the first two seasons. But arguably more important - or at least equally as important - were better, more consistently written and developed characters and relationships. 

In a July 2012 interview (before Arrow even debuted), Marc Guggenheim said: "[O]ne of the things that is part of the DNA of the show is the emotional complexity, the emotional resonance of the relationships between the characters. It’ll start off with Oliver relating to Thea, and Oliver relating to Moira, etc., but as the show evolves and grows in the series, we’ll start putting other characters together... So watching the characters combine and interact with each other in ways that independent of Oliver, I think, is just as interesting as when Oliver is involved. Part of the show is a soap opera. Part of the show is a character drama. And that’s, I think, one of the very importants of the show. It’s not just Oliver beating up bad guys every week.” 

So when I read comments about how Arrow must go back to what it did in S1/S2 and be a superhero show again, and not a soap opera or relationship drama (usually in support of an argument that the show must have more fights and little to no romance), I have to grit my teeth. (To be clear, I think Arrow needs it all - action, fights, mystery, drama, romance, etc. - but in a more balanced and organic way.)

This season, the characters have become unrecognizable and, in some cases, unlikeable. And the relationships are indecipherable and, in some cases, unlikeable. The EPs went "back to basics" with the more superficial elements, but lost the heart and soul of the show.

This season, the EPs didn't reboot the show to make it better. They destroyed what made Arrow a good show in the first place.

Edited February 25, 2017 by tv echo

[theOAfc]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

TPTB don't really understand (or have forgotten) what made S1 and S2 so well-received and well-liked.

They think copy-pasting old scenes and redoing old tropes will somehow make the show what it used to be,of course they forget that the whole damn point of season 1 and season 2 was to build a journey,something they clearly no longer respect. Whether people admit it or not,the characters are all over the place and on top of that they are repeatedly used to serve the plot rather than to be developed and honored. I trully hope they enjoy getting the show "back to basics" cause the ratings are suffering and they lost  a very large part of their loyal fans when they decided to go out of their way to earn back a specific group of people rather than to stick to their whatever plans and honor the overall story.

[Chaser]

In terms of "Back to Basics", I'm actually pleased with some of it. Ignoring BS and the crossover, I like the return of the street grittiness and decent stunt work. I like that Oliver has a civilian life right now, I hate that I can't enjoy it cause of Reporter/MG Stupidity, but I like seeing a balancing act again. I think the concept of Prometheus is intriguing and had a pretty successful introduction at the start of the season. 

Unfortunately "Back to Basics" didn't include the relationships/characters for them. I feel like they gave Arrow back it's look but forgot it's soul. 

They want to introduce new characters to keep the show expanding, okay. But realize that those new characters had no part in getting you to your fifth season and your audience will not automatically care about them. 

[tv echo]

The premise for this season had (has) a lot of potential.  IIRC, Oliver has never really been punished for his S1 serial killing ways. Yes, Tommy died, but that was due to the Undertaking. In S2, Moira died, but that was due to Slade Wilson and what happened on the island. In S3, Sara died (for a time), but that was due to Malcolm. And Laurel's death in S4 was due to Darhk. Oliver did come close to facing repercussions for his serial killing in one previous season, but Roy took his punishment by pretending to be the Arrow.  

This season is the first time that Oliver is facing real punishment/retribution for his S1 killing in the form of Prometheus. Unfortunately, Oliver is also becoming so unlikeable that it's becoming increasingly difficult to care.

Of course, the season is not over. It's possible that they'll pull out this season with a fantastic final four episodes that will explain everything and make the season-long slog worth it.

Edited February 25, 2017 by tv echo

[theOAfc]

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

In terms of "Back to Basics", I'm actually pleased with some of it. Ignoring BS and the crossover, I like the return of the street grittiness and decent stunt work. I like that Oliver has a civilian life right now, I hate that I can't enjoy it cause of Reporter/MG Stupidity, but I like seeing a balancing act again. I think the concept of Prometheus is intriguing and had a pretty successful introduction at the start of the season. 

Unfortunately "Back to Basics" didn't include the relationships/characters for them. I feel like they gave Arrow back it's look but forgot it's soul. 

They want to introduce new characters to keep the show expanding, okay. But realize that those new characters had no part in getting you to your fifth season and your audience will not automatically care about them. 

Decent stunts should be a given in a show like arrow. Claiming back to basics only to pretty much reset the show in many elements and literally copy paste scenes just to give off the impression that you are how you used to be is underwhelming. They are doing a cheap version of early seasons rather than honoring what made the show interesting in the first place.

Things like the villain being masked again,Oliver wearing suits and having a job outside of being GA etc dont mean anything when the writing doesnt back them up. Oliver spends very little time doing something for the city as mayor and the villain isnt as interesting as he/she was back in season 1 and 2. I honestly feel like they are just re-doing stuff instead of really going back to what made the show actually decent.

[tangerine95]

I get the feeling it's not so much that they don't know what works but it's that they take those aspects for granted. Like people love olicity so they think no matter what they'll always love them even when the show decides to ignore it for a while like rn. Or who needs consistent ota interaction when thats already popular, better to use Digg and Felicity to prop new character that they need to push than to work on that friendship. Or they managed to make Oliver likeable after an questionable start of season 1 but it's like they think that's permanent even when they take away the aspects that actually made him likeable. 

It's sad to see that MG interview because despite the bad,  often plot driven writting previous seasons also had, they did understand relationships between the characters make the show and weren't afraid of emotions. Idk what made them think action and stunts were suddenly a main draw for people. 

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I get the feeling it's not so much that they don't know what works but it's that they take those aspects for granted. Like people love olicity so they think no matter what they'll always love them even when the show decides to ignore it for a while like rn. Or who needs consistent ota interaction when thats already popular, better to use Digg and Felicity to prop new character that they need to push than to work on that friendship. Or they managed to make Oliver likeable after an questionable start of season 1 but it's like they think that's permanent even when they take away the aspects that actually made him likeable. 

It's sad to see that MG interview because despite the bad,  often plot driven writting previous seasons also had, they did understand relationships between the characters make the show and weren't afraid of emotions. Idk what made them think action and stunts were suddenly a main draw for people. 

Here's the thing. I think the showrunners do look at what doesn't work and take steps to fix it, the problem is what they think isn't working isn't always the same as what a large percentage of the audience thinks isn't working. A few seasons back they said they knew people were having issues and were taking steps to fix it but afterwards a lot of people said "That wasn't the problem." The things they 'fix' are rarely the things people have an issue with.  Course correcting doesn't do a lot of good if the map you're following wasn't accurate in the first place.

I think I might have mentioned before that relationship drama was never what I was watching Arrow for. I never really cared if Oliver was dating Laurel, McKenna, Sara, Felicity, or no one at all. I was always more interested in the action. Even the comic booky stuff, if done right. Not that I minded seeing Oliver and Felcity and Diggle interact in the lair off duty. Character interaction is great, and necessary, but relationship drama CAN eat a show. It can also be a lot of fun to watch if done right. And this season was on course to return to the more action oriented show I liked. Only, here's the problem. Most of it is was characters I don't care about. Curtis? Eh. Wild Dog? Eh. The girl with the bow? I don't even remember her name. Rory? Okay, him I liked, but still. Diggle is almost an afterthought, and Oliver spends more of his time in civvies than his green underoos.

If they really wanted to "get back to basics" they should have ditched the supernatural elements the LoA and especially Dark deposited on their doorstep, limited the metehuman involvement (some is necessary, given the world they live in) and focused on Oliver and Diggle hitting the streets, finally making a dent in Star City's crime rate (even if, like Gotham City, is gets better and worse in spurts) with Felicity backing them on comms and Quentin basically keeping the cops out of their way. Either put Thea back in a suit or not, find a place or her or write her off. And no, Green Arrow does NOT need a Black Canary, I don't care what the comics say. You can have one, fine, but it is not a narrative requirement. At this point I am basically still watching the show because there is nothing else on at the time and I am still curious to see what is happening. I don't quite dislike it, because if that happens I'll stop, but there are going to have to really impress me to keep me around. AoS already bored me to tears enough I dropped it. And this from the guy who watched Smallville from beginning to end.

Edited February 25, 2017 by KirkB
Spelling.

[Sunshine]

I have often wondered how much of this season's developments, especially all the new masks and Felicity being reduced to comic relief, is attributable to Ben Sokolowski's visit to Reddit last spring.

[theOAfc]

41 minutes ago, KirkB said:

The things they 'fix' are rarely the things people have an issue with.

Thats because they tend to listen to extremely biased fans instead of actual criticism. A producer should know who to listen to when it comes to constructive criticism. Listening to a bunch of mad fans who yell "kill Olicity" or "bring back olicity" isnt gonna make the show better. They need to sit down and think about what the real issue is.

Thats partly why they think the show needs new characters acting like the old ones run their course. No,its their writing that fails to explore the old characters but they wont admit so they instead add new faces to whom they give overused filler "arcs" until people get tired of them too because the show doesnt give them any fleshed out storyline to make them more than one dimensional stereotypical characters. They think copy pasting scenes that they remember people loved once upon a time will somehow make the show what it used to be. They legit went out during summer and said olicity would be like it was in very early seasons because people loved them so much back then. Of course that makes zero sense after what happened literally episodes ago. But they dont care. They fail to understand that people want a journey and not a re-do of old stuff. They said Felicity would go back to being awkward because people loved her so much back in season 1 etc yet they didnt understand that it makes zero sense to do such a thing to a character after 4 years in the team and after everything the character went through. They dont bother to think of the overall story, they are just pulling old stuff that worked back in earlier days ignoring that they worked back then because back then they made sense and served the overall journey in a believable way. 

Its cool to add new stunts and make the show more gritty but dont do it at the expense of the actual continuity and characterization. Cause you end up killing the show's characters which is worse than pulling a season full of magic IMO.

Edited February 25, 2017 by theOAfc

[LeighAn]

7 hours ago, Sunshine said:

I have often wondered how much of this season's developments, especially all the new masks and Felicity being reduced to comic relief, is attributable to Ben Sokolowski's visit to Reddit last spring.

Considering after he went there he basically tweeted some form of disgust from memory I'd say not a lot. 

[AyChihuahua]

7 hours ago, theOAfc said:

They need to sit down and think about what the real issue is.

IMO it's making Oliver into a weirdo moronic robot and pretending the prior four years (or in some cases, four weeks) never happened. Fix those issues and you mostly fix the show.

[Sunshine]

28 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Considering after he went there he basically tweeted some form of disgust from memory I'd say not a lot. 

I missed that tweet apparently.  

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I missed that tweet apparently.  

I can't remember exactly what he said but he came back from there not amused. I remember the Olicity fans on Twitter laughing about how the redditors had basically invited him there and he had the opposite reaction of what they were hoping.

Then not long after that I'm pretty sure was when DC made that big statement that they didn't want to be associated with the Arrow reddit because of their behaviour and were formally distancing themselves on the DC reddit page.

Good times.

[lemotomato]

8 hours ago, Sunshine said:

I have often wondered how much of this season's developments, especially all the new masks and Felicity being reduced to comic relief, is attributable to Ben Sokolowski's visit to Reddit last spring.

Ben S co-wrote 510, so I wonder if his trip to reddit affected him in the other direction, actually.

Edited February 26, 2017 by lemotomato

[Sunshine]

15 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Ben S co-wrote 510, so I wonder if his trip to reddit affected him in the other direction, actually.

Maybe. Never thought of it that way. :-) 

[LeighAn]

18 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Ben S co-wrote 510, so I wonder if his trip to reddit affected him in the other direction, actually.

Ha!

[lemotomato]

After doing some digging, Ben S episodes usually treat Felicity/Olicity very well. He wrote 510, 409 (proposal), 206 (the Russia episode), 209 (3 Ghosts), 222 (the one with the clocktower speech). Felicity is also in the field or in the middle of the action in his episodes (510, 507, 409, 305, 319, 322). And he wrote the run of GA comics when Felicity was added to them. I think there's ample evidence that he's a Felicity fan.

[Mellowyellow]

Is he writing anymore s5 eps @lemotomato?

I'm a bit nervous the gossip girl woman writing the upcoming Felicity episode. 

[lemotomato]

He wrote 515, the upcoming episode :)

[LeighAn]

Wasn't it him that tweeted I love Olicity and the retweet/like poll for Olicity and Lauriver.

To be honest I don't buy that any of the writers dislike Felicity I think they love her as much as her fans do. I think they maybe just wish their other characters were as eagerly embraced as Felicity but tough cookies :p

[thegirlsleuth]

I sometimes wondered if Geoff Johns actually read that "Open Letter to Geoff Johns" that was floating around in the spring and I think came out of reddit. While he hasn't put Guggenheim's head on a spike the way they requested, a lot of other things came to pass.

[lemotomato]

I think we can speculate on any number of reasons why this season is the way it is. It's possible the Olicity stall can be blamed on the network, the influx of new masks/re-introduction of BC was DC's mandate, the return of killer! gritty! more stunts! Oliver was SA's request. The reduced focus on Felicity I think is a side effect of having so many newbies to share screentime with, not being Oliver's LI, and things not in their control like Charlotte Ross not coming back because they couldn't agree on a contract.

But I don't think what happened on the show this season was because of fan complaints.

Edited February 26, 2017 by lemotomato

[kismet]

16 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

It's sad to see that MG interview because despite the bad,  often plot driven writting previous seasons also had, they did understand relationships between the characters make the show and weren't afraid of emotions. Idk what made them think action and stunts were suddenly a main draw for people. 

The action and stunts were always a big draw. Even as someone that watches a show for the relationships, the action in s1 & s2 was tight and enthralling. I do believe a lot of that was having the actors do as much of the stunt work as possible. And I think it was done well in s1 & s2, and that made the show awesome. The stunts were then compromised in s3 & s4, so improving them is not a return to basics, it's fixing what became broken. And personally, that is not something that should be given a medal. I expect improvement and fixing what is not working, that's just rudimentary. That's just doing your job. And rather than demoting Bam Bam, they keep on rewarding and promoting him. Sure, the action is great this year, but it sucked for the last 2 years so by comparison it looked better. I don't think the action stunts have been groundbreaking this season. They are doing what they should have been doing from Day One. They are a functional part of the story telling, not the dysfunctional distractor they were in s3/4. So its not a return to basics, it's fulfilling one's job requirement.

----

I agree that Back to Basics, should be a return to the heart & soul of the show. Which has not happened in s5, if anything the show feels even more hollow with each passing day. It may look like Arrow, but it's not Arrow. I do believe it went a little off course in s3/4. But they didn't need a reboot of the show. They simply needed a reboot in their writing style & MO, perhaps some of the writers needed to change. They needed to return to writing for the characters again and not for the plot. However, they doubled down on the PLOT and have forgotten about characters & relationships. Introducing new characters does not substitute for character growth or writing relationships, it simply increases your cast. Staying on the surface and never exploring the depths is not a good philosophy.

Personally, I had a bad feeling about this season from the summer spoilers. I had a feeling they would misunderstand "Back to Basics" and the show would be gutted. I'm sad to see that has become a reality.

Edited February 26, 2017 by kismet
forgot a word

[Pete Martell]

12 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I sometimes wondered if Geoff Johns actually read that "Open Letter to Geoff Johns" that was floating around in the spring and I think came out of reddit. While he hasn't put Guggenheim's head on a spike the way they requested, a lot of other things came to pass.

I'd never read that before. It's interesting to see them go on about pandering to Olicity fans and the idea of a couple being so preeminent, and so on, then you get all that below about the importance of Black Canary and Green Arrow as a couple. 

Personally I was a fan of Black Canary/Dinah in the comics because of her, not her relationship with Oliver. Some of my favorite periods of her were when she was in Justice League Europe (or JLI or whatever it was called) and I don't even think he was around for any of that. She got to be fun and entertaining and tough too. 

The show never cared about her outside of Oliver and when they never could shoehorn her into the Canary role they never properly set up in the first place, she died. That's not on Felicity or Olicity. I know there were fan wars and all that, but even if every Felicity and Olicity fan had adored Laurel and begged viewers on every board around to support her, the writing was still going to suck, and there was simply something wrong in the casting and chemistry from the getgo. I don't blame Katie Cassidy for that and I don't blame Felicity or Olicity or whoever else - I blame the people who make the show. 

And sure enough, if there were any attempts to listen to these complaints and sidelining Olicity and Felicity (and to be honest I'm not really that interested in Olicity, I'm more interested in Felicity with Diggle, her mother, et al.), all they really meant was that the show introduced more ready-made comic book females, like Susan, the boilerplate "mysterious" love interest who is in the end mostly defined by the tight-trousered pipe that our leading man lays, and who will likely be meeting a refrigerator to serve his story in one form or another, or Tinah, the cookie cutter "sexy" "badass" straight out of a sticky-paged comic from 1988.

[DeadZeus]

The main villain has been AWOL for like, 4 episodes now? And ppl were thinking he was gonna be the best villain since Slade.. keep dreaming...

Season started strong but all it is now is filler after filler after filler. Getting really annoyed. Low GA appearance second half of the season aswell.

[theOAfc]

14 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

And ppl were thinking he was gonna be the best villain since Slade

How can bad writing give a good villain? People were impressed at first because he was masked and had bow /arrows but also he has a personal issue with Oliver which gave the impression that he would be like a combo of Slade and Merlyn of s1 and s2. Of course once again copy pasting past seasons elements wont fix the main issue with the show. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I wasn't a huge comics person, but the two I read were Nightwing and Bird of Prey, so I was as confused as you were, @Pete Martell about why Dinah and Oliver HAD to be together.  I've been missing Felicity and Diggle the last two seasons.  Even when Oliver was off being the big dumb hero the two of them had each other's backs physically and emotionally.  

Like the discussions we've had about how this show tried to overcorrect what was off last season, I think they've tried to overcorrect the big villain reveal and are now doing it too late.  Of course it could just be the dreaded 11 - 15 slump.  Do they deny the writers snacks when mapping out those episodes so their blood sugar drops?  Do they hand wave it, focusing on the big, smash-bang ending that will be coming up in later episodes?

Edited February 26, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[statsgirl]

I think they tried to change too many elements on the show at once.  Season 5 and knowing you've got a least one, maybe two more seasons of show time is a good time to bring in new characters but there were too many, Rene, Curtis, Evelyn, Rory, Chase, Church, Susan and now Dinah, while only Oliver and Felicity were there of the regulars because Thea and Quentin, and even Diggle, had their time considerably cut.  So more than half of the characters on screen were n00bs, , more like 2/3rds I'd say.

Making Oliver the mayor also must have seemed like a good idea but it worked out that either he's a bad mayor because he's being the Green Arrow, or he's a good mayor and doesn't suit up enough.  I'm glad Diggle is back on the team at last but the team is still too full of n00bs for me to enjoy seeing them in action.

The big problem for me with Prometheus is that he's so inconsistent a theme on the show this season.  He set out to show Oliver how his actions ruins everyone's lives but the writers keep failing to connect Oliver to that rather than his every season garden variety guilt.

2 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

It's interesting to see them go on about pandering to Olicity fans

even if every Felicity and Olicity fan had adored Laurel and begged viewers on every board around to support her, the writing was still going to suck, and there was simply something wrong in the casting and chemistry from the getgo.

If Laurel had ever worked, there would have been no Felicity or Olicity fans.  It's partly the casting but also I think the refusal of those writers who adored Laurel as the Black Canary  (AK, I'm looking at you) to let her go dark, which is KC's forte. The Black Siren worked much better for her but maybe the writers were afraid of the comic book fans.

I don't see any pandering to Olicity fans this season, Olicity is yet just another popular element of the show that they dropped this season.  The pandering that struck me were the promos for 5x10, implying that Laurel was coming back on to the show when there was no chance that she was.

Edited February 26, 2017 by statsgirl

[Belinea]

33 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

So more than half of the characters on screen were n00bs, , more like 2/3rds I'd say.

Which is why, even though this might be purely my personal opinion, half their viewers dropped the show.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Belinea

[TwistedandBored]

My last friend just dropped this show. She was watching last week's episode today and texted me, "this show is boring and I don't even find Oliver hot anymore. " She also doesn't want him with Felicity anymore. Ugh! Now, I am the last one watching this show out of my entire group. How do they lose close to 7 people in 1 season?

Seriously, I am now even more bitter than before. I don't know how long I will last. 

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

How do they lose close to 7 people in 1 season?

I had 8 friends who watched - 4 called it quits in the 3rd season, the other 4 dropped out last season post-lie. I'm the lone survivor, haha.

[TwistedandBored]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

I had 8 friends who watched - 4 called it quits in the 3rd season, the other 4 dropped out last season post-lie. I'm the lone survivor, haha.

Well my 2 sisters dropped out last season post lie episode. My oldest sister literally walked off when Felicity got out of her wheel chair like "nope". This left my 2 other sisters and my 3 friends. My youngest 2 sisters dropped out after before the 100th episode when they saw Laurel in the wedding dress on twitter. My two friends after the 100th episode. The last one just dropped out today. I am the lone survivor of the group too. 

[HighHopes]

I'm bitter because this show has now become the show I thought it was when I first saw the promos in 2012. 

Everyone save one person I know who watched the show has now dropped it (I think it's at 11 people now?). Two dropped it during s3, 4 after the s3 finale, and the rest at some point in s4 or before s5 started. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by HighHopes

[Chaser]

My tally was 7. Most dropped in S3 for one reason or another. My dad and sister stopped post lie. My co worker watches but that is only because he watches all the comic shows. He hates it (which is odd imo because he is all COMIC CANON BC AND GA HATE FELICITY HATE OLICITY).

[calliope1975]

All the people I convinced to watch quit in S3. One still watches Supergirl and LOT so I keep him updated for crossover purposes, but he just laughs at me when I complain about Arrow. 

[Thundercatmary]

I watched with about 8 others, all of us were uphappy with 4b but stuck with it. When season 5 promo started and we got info on things like Billy everyone but 1 flounced, I've only watched here and there. 

There was a lot I didn't like about season 3 and even more so season 4b, but I think for a lot of people it was a matter of just being at your limit. I mean all the things I enjoyed that kept me watching even when the writing was terribad are all but gone. 

[TwistedandBored]

I think the rest of the group that stayed after season 4 were hoping season 5 will give them a tension filled Olicity moments this season and man that hope died quickly during the first half of this season. 

[kismet]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If Laurel had ever worked, there would have been no Felicity or Olicity fans.  It's partly the casting but also I think the refusal of those writers who adored Laurel as the Black Canary  (AK, I'm looking at you) to let her go dark, which is KC's forte. The Black Siren worked much better for her but maybe the writers were afraid of the comic book fans.

I disagree. I think LL/KC could have failed as a LI and still have been a good character. There is a role for a strong female character that is not dependent upon OQ. SL held her own for 1/2 a season before they forced her back into the LI cubby hole. The anti-chemistry between O/L was strong. But good writing could have overcome that at least in the professional realm. The writers could have navigated LL from the beginning of s2 to be a more independent fighter. Focused on making her more than just a placeholder for some future journey to masked hero down the road.

The chemistry between O/F is undeniable; so I think it would have been an uphill battle for any other LIs. Even if you don't like them romantic the chemistry between EBR/SA is strong. But I am starting to see that once a character is removed from LI, they really struggle with how to write those characters outside of their romantic relationships.

That being said I do think the Arrow world was wide enough for LL, FS, and Olicity fans. I considered myself one of those fans until it became obvious that the writers had no intention of doing anything well written for LL. They really started to ruin her character for no good reason in s2. Add to that her rushed journey s3, and her insulting death in s4, it's no wonder people are disappointed in these writers. I get that KC has different strengths than the writers wrote for her character. However, they really didn't even write to the character's strengths. It became obvious that they had a tunnel vision view of LL that benefited no one.

[theOAfc]

10 hours ago, HighHopes said:

I'm bitter because this show has now become the show I thought it was when I first saw the promos in 2012. 

True story,i dropped Arrow after 1x04 when i first gave it a try. It was after s2 ended that i heard way too many good impressions and decided to give it another try by binge watching(binge watching is really making not good shows look much better). I wouldnt be a fan of it if the show kept going like it was in 1a (aka boring ,with many bland characters and a very bad female lead-i really want the female lead to be slightly interesting). I guess after 1x14 or so,it started bocoming more enjoyable.

Edited February 27, 2017 by theOAfc