Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[TanyaKay]

THIS. And let's not forget all the pics wearing black leather jackets she's been posting lately as well. This is KC's idea of method acting, apparently. Excuse me while I burst a muscle from LOLing.

 

hahaha

If I am not wrong, KC was cast as Laurel Lance - not as Black Canary. And as this is a TV show about Green Arrow's origins story, even if she had become BC, she would have been secondary to the character of Green Arrow. The way the show has been written, it seems that apart from Stephen Amell's Green Arrow, every other character was fair game. Willah Holland was called Speedy but then they introduced Roy Harper, Colin Donnell was the only Merlyn in first few episodes before they came up with Daddy Merlyn who turned out to be the big bad of the season. I don't recall either Willah Holland or Colin Donnell (poor guy was killed after signing a 3 year contract) going to the press and crying that they were devastated that another character took on their supposed comic identity? It is just lack of professionalism on Katie Cassidy's part and nothing else.

Most of the fan ire is also because of the way she behaves in public and on social media.

Well, to be fair, Felicity doesn't exactly dress like your typical EA, either.

 

Barring that boob window dress which I thought was inappropriate and it is apparently making a come back this year, a lot of women in high paying corporate sector wears such clothes - shorter skirts and sleeveless dresses but there is always a code - like you have to wear tights and no jangling jewellery. Felicity is okay with accessories and rest of the dresses. I only had issues with that bright red boob window dress, no one who wants to be taken seriously at work would EVER wear that.

[HighwayFlower]

She may get what she wants, but is it worth it when she is alienating fans of the show? Arrow wont last forever and she will have a reputation as an actress fans hate.

If she was smart she would embrace being Manhunter and push for that since it's a roll people would be happy to see her play.

[apinknightmare]

Honestly, if KC was being given designer clothes to wear on this show in some kind of deal to up visibility for her blog, wouldn't she...I don't know, mention it somewhere? She doesn't (that I've seen) post on her blog about what Laurel wears, so she's already failing at marketing and tie-ins 101. She doesn't discuss Laurel's style in interviews. Likely, those are the clothes that she's given by wardrobe, because that's the CW's version of young assistant DA. She's an assistant DA in TV show reality, not reality reality. Maybe if this was Law and Order, but it's the CW. She's not going to be drab, and to be honest I haven't really seen her wear anything on the job that I would consider inappropriate or even all that high-end? Yeah, she was an idiot to wear a white coat to break into a file room, but Felicity was running away from Mirakududes in stilettos. Things don't always make sense in Starling.

 

When I posted that Felicity didn't dress like your typical EA, I was going to edit to add SOME of the time (and clearly I should have). Yes, some EAs dress like she does, but she's got a couple of dresses that push the envelope of what might be acceptable. But it's a TV show, so it doesn't bother me.

 

The trillion rings KC wears aren't my style, but no one on the show has too much of a problem with it since she continues to wear them. If that's a concession they made to her, I can live with it. Truly there are so many legit reasons to criticize Laurel's character and some of KC's handling of her role on the show, that I can't even be bothered to nitpick her clothing; it's the least important aspect of her mess of a character, IMO (but clearly that's a minority opinion here in the bitterness thread, haha).

Edited July 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

Michael Shanks got tired of his long hair on Stargate SG:1 but they didn't want him to cut it because James Spader had long floppy hair in the movie so he told them he had to get it cut  because he was in a Shakespeare play and so they let him

 

He might have changed his appearance specifically due to personal reasons but it worked for the character who spent the ten years realistically transitioning from a absentminded scholar to someone who had absorbed ten years worth of military procedures and training.  He stopped being the floppy haired guy who wore his heart on his sleeve, at least on the outside.  (Can you tell I have a thing for this character/actor?  Yeah, I figured it was obvious but what I said is still true.) 

 

I give the wardrobe a pass for the most part.  Most shows let their characters dress way out of their real character budget or life style.  I'm used to it at this point.  Where I do get testy is when in the flashbacks they don't make sure the styles match up to the past styles.  When in doubt, leave out the extra rings and more creative nail designs. 

 

As for the hair,  I wouldn't normally care but knowing what I know about how carefully hair color and length and style is monitored on this type of show, It just is hard to ignore all the meta KC going blond is saying.  (Plus, honestly, she looked better with the dark hair.  More striking and more professional lawyer like).  I do tend to believe the "pick our battles" theory where they just let her have this since her expectations didn't match up with reality.  Still, I don't like the chaos and controversy in trying to figure out if it means anything.

 

Someone mentioned Kate on Lost being favored by the show runners.  I heard something on a commentary for the pilot episode that made me think Kate was originally intended to be the main character on Lost.  Jack originally wasn't going to survive past a visit to the downed cockpit of the plane.  He was supposed to be the one sucked out by the smoke monster.  Instead, network people saved him (one time the network people gave good notes) but I think the show runners never completely adjusted their thinking and so Kate was always their focus and blind spot.

 

I think Laurel and all she could have been (or in the minds of the show runners, should have been) does remain baggage that is weighing down the show.  It's like they are willing to go with what works but only for a limited time and then they go back to trying to make what might have been originally intended only the show can't support that narrative since it hasn't been built that way. 

[KirkB]

I suppose it's possible KC had her hair blonde for some other reason, like a flashback or dream sequence or something on Supernatural. Or for some other show or movie she is doing outside of Arrow.

 

Honestly, the clothes and hair stuff doesn't bother me. Characters on TV almost always dress better than people in their situations should. I don't really care if it is wildly inappropriate if it's right for the character or the actor just likes it. And since I am still utterly apathetic toward Laurel I really don't care what she's wearing unless it's black leather and comes with a canary cry of some sort, then I'll have issues.

[Sakura12]

What I don't get is why isn't anyone else supporting Cassidy on this? No one else is saying anything about Laurel becoming the BC except for her, not any of the other actors or producers. If that last few minutes of the finale was supposed to give us a clear idea of who the real BC is and that's what the jacket hand off meant why is no one commenting or committing to that fact?

 

You'd think they'd be excited to be talking about the person with the comic name becoming her comic counterpart. Or saying Laurel'd finally starting her journey (since they loved that word last season in regards to her). Why would they have to wait until SDCC to announce something that they said already happened? 

[Sunshine]

I think the actors and producers are answering the questions they are asked and no more. At this point I don't see anyone in the media asking anyone but KC and CL about Canary. CL's standard answer for her role in S3 is either I can't say or it's a secret. KC is playing coy most of the time but definitely leaning towards I AM BC. The EPs have said since SDCC2013 that CL's story was just the beginning of BC. They always talked about S2 being LL's island even if the rest of us just rolled our eyes.No matter what they wrote or how the fans embraced CL the EPs have never backed off the idea of KC being BC.

[Morrigan2575]

@Sunshine - you so don't live up to your name :D

[Sunshine]

I wish I could...especially with this. :D

[BkWurm1]

Before Sara we had this understanding that somehow way down the line this lump of Laurel lawyer would one day transform Into the Black Canary. The thought always came with queasy misgivings, I mean she was already too old for the timeline to make sense, she had no time to reach the level of greatness required nor could I fathom a reason why she would even try but it was all nebulous worries I could ignore. There wasn't even a guarantee this show would do a Black Canary.

Then came Sara. Started her training six years ago, proper trauma and motivation, sympathetic characterization, was Green Arrows equal, had her own sidekicks. And I'm supposed to want to go back to what never made sense in the first place?

Laurels problem (and they are legion) in this case is she has not been set up in a reasonable way that can support her becoming BC. Full stop, period, don't pass go. Her "crucible" might have shown her coming to gripes with her anger issues but it did not bring her physically closer to any BC qualification nor did it supply her a reason to become BC.

If anything by letting her in on the heroing secrets of Starling City, it took away motivation for her to strike out on her own when she now has so many resources at her fingertips both inside and outside the law.

Edited July 15, 2014 by BkWurm1

[FAU]

 

Her "crucible" might have shown her coming to gripes with her anger issues but it did not bring her physically closer to any BC qualification nor did it supply her a reason to become BC.

 

Which felt like a waste of time seeing as they didn't even show Laurel recovering from her problem, she was suddenly able to walk around a night club full of booze and she was a-ok.

[dtissagirl]

When Tommy died, I thought that would have been the motivation for Laurel to become a vigilante. That the Undertaking would have made her realize that there was no way for her to do anything by the law in a city where the Billionaire's Club built a machine to kill all poor people at once. And it would have been good motivation at that point; Laurel could focus her anger on going after every single person that helped Malcolm, she could probably have her own List of sorts.

 

But they never went there. Instead they gave the whole "I have to be a hero because Tommy died" motivation to Oliver. And they gave the booze and pills to Laurel.

 

Then they cast CL because of her stunt skills, and when Sara showed up, she WAS Black Canary -- the years of training, and not just that, but training WITH the League of Assassins; her style of fighting and going after misogynist perps; her relationship with Sin -- I mean, they gave EVERYTHING but the flower shop to Sara. I just figured they'd given up on making Laurel BC for good. And I actually believed that until the magic leather jacket of doom.

 

So, yeah, before Sara, I actually thought Laurel would become BC, but after Sara, I don't really see how that can work.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: As per this post in the Notes from the Mods thread. We now wish to move the conversation on from the Black Canary topic. At this point it has been covered thoroughly, so until there is anything solid from the show, we want you to please move on from that topic.

 

Thank you.

[slayer2]

I'm bitter that TPTB haven't discovered how fascinated I am with the workouts of Amell, Lotz and now Cassidy and added them as extra features or featurettes on their Arrow youtube page. I'm also bitter because I feel like they don't even have an Arrow youtube page. Missed opportunity, people!

[Sakura12]

When Tommy died, I thought that would have been the motivation for Laurel to become a vigilante. That the Undertaking would have made her realize that there was no way for her to do anything by the law in a city where the Billionaire's Club built a machine to kill all poor people at once. And it would have been good motivation at that point; Laurel could focus her anger on going after every single person that helped Malcolm, she could probably have her own List of sorts.

 

But they never went there. Instead they gave the whole "I have to be a hero because Tommy died" motivation to Oliver. And they gave the booze and pills to Laurel.

 

Then they cast CL because of her stunt skills, and when Sara showed up, she WAS Black Canary -- the years of training, and not just that, but training WITH the League of Assassins; her style of fighting and going after misogynist perps; her relationship with Sin -- I mean, they gave EVERYTHING but the flower shop to Sara. I just figured they'd given up on making Laurel BC for good. And I actually believed that until the magic leather jacket of doom.

 

So, yeah, before Sara, I actually thought Laurel would become BC, but after Sara, I don't really see how that can work.

 

Even without the flower shop, they showed us Sara having some herbology knowledge when she made the antidote for sodium pentothal. So they gave her the knowledge to open a flower shop if she wanted too and something she can do since she doesn't have a degree in anything else. That's why she is the definite version of the Black Canary (as Stephen Amell himself said).

 

I'm hoping Sara's character is not ruined this season, I think I"m more worried about that over her dying. 

[hogwash]

This should probably go in Moira's thread but I went off on a couple of weird, bitter tangents. So I rewatched ep12 of s01 to see if I wasn't remembering the buildup to the Moira/Felicity’s s02 confrontation right (then I ended up finishing the season cause wow did they hit a stride after Felicity formally joined Team Arrow that s02 couldn't touch...grumble grumble). When ep13 aired it confused me that people were angry at Felicity for confronting Moira about Thea's paternity because I got into the show after the Flash episodes so the whole MOIRA QUEEN IS EVUL!1!! (and should NEVER be trusted!!!11!!) thing was still fresh in my mind. Felicity is amazingly brave for having the nerve to confront her alone because s01 Moira was more terrifying than I remembered…utterly terrifying. They did a really good job of neutering her in s02, but those s01 episodes don’t lie. It's weird the show mostly glossed over how she was actively responsible for the Undertaking. She should be serving multiple life sentences (thanks a lot, Malcolm!!). The city should have been after her head. Especially considering that she was presumably the last(?) living conspirator. I still don't understand why they did that? Maybe the show figured since she was gonna die anyway anything they did with her beforehand didn't need to make sense...? (An ongoing theme in s02...grumble grumble). But, it honestly makes the Blood subplot seem even lazier than it already was. With how negative campaigns can be, it should have been WAY easier for Blood after Moira was acquitted.

 

 

Sorry if no one cares, but it's just that rewatching the back half of s01 made me realize that her getting off was a bigger WTF than the whole mayor thing (two things that no one seriously questioned or looked into. Not even when she got off on the CONSPIRACY CHARGES?!) Blood's campaign should have had a field day with that. Rich white woman who used her money to avoid consequences for her actions after destroying the corrupt city she helped build vs poor Latino orphan who wants to to rebuild the corrupt city he loves after “overcoming adversity”. Modern-day American oligarch vs the man of the people. It practically writes itself! With Malcolm being dead (presumably), it should have been easier for Blood to get people at Moira's throat. He could have had the city frothing at the mouth (like they were in the beginning after Diggle/Felicity dragged Oliver back to the city). Anyway back to my original point (kinda, sorta), it would have been weird for Felicity to have nothing to say after learning Thea's paternity. She knew firsthand what Moira was capable of (poor Walter. MOIRA QUEEN IS EVUL!1!!). It was also very uncharacteristic of Dig to say so little about Thea's paternity, Moira's acquittal/mayoral campaign. In s01, most of his biggest conflicts with Oliver were over Laurel and Moira. Dig should have been a bigger cheerleader for Blood over Moira. It could have been something interesting after they found out who Blood really was and helped Dig get over some of his Moira/Laurel prejudices. I don't get why they dropped that? It would have at least given him something to do? Even Oliver being friends with him was also barely fleshed out.

 

 

Honestly, my annoyance with so many of the back half episodes is that since the show knew that we would have to sit through Lance family drama, DCU pandering, and Moira-related stupidity to set up the finale the least they could have done was make it interesting. Or put some thought into it...

[Password]

Taken from Public Appearances thread

 

 

Just came out of Manu's panel and it was interesting - he confirmed that the Island triangle with Slade/Shado/Oliver came a bit out of the blue for him and until that point he'd been treating her more like a daughter/younger sister.

 

Arrow execs, you really need to keep your actors in the loop or plan things out better.

 

This makes me sad. They didn't even know Slade's motivation for ruining Oliver's life until they came up with it in the middle of season. Thank goodness they say they already have the plan for this season. I hope it comes together a lot better than the second half of season 2.

[dtissagirl]

Sigh. That explains why Slade's motivation was so weak storywise. I think I'm never gonna forgive them for what they killed Shado for, and the way they did it. It really was one of the worst cases of fridging I've ever seen. Ugh.

Edited August 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[TanyaKay]

When Shado appeared on our screens, she was the most badass woman on the show. She was Slade's equal in fighting and she mocked Oliver like a little boy. The scene in the fuselage (ep1x19) where she asked Slade if Oliver always whines this much and Slade saying it was one of the good days was hilarious. It also did set up Shado and Slade as older & wiser people and who are seasoned fighters as well.

She later made him slap the water bowl many many times and Oliver whined some more. I was quite shocked when she kissed Oliver one episode later because initially I thought they would set up Slade & Shado because they were equals and had this one goal in common, they were both there on the island to save Yao Fei, but I saw absolutely nothing between them and an Oliver kiss with Shado so I thought okay, they were showing Slade as a bad ass fighter who was not interested in any woman and probably had a wife back home (he mentioned his son Joe so I assumed he was married). A few episodes into season 2 and we were told that Slade is Shado's secret admirer and then she was killed so that Slade can wallow in manpain and later become evil?

Barring Oliver and Felicity, every romantic entanglement on the show was dealt with rather poorly.

Edited August 4, 2014 by TanyaKay

[KirkB]

Slade's story was so horribly mismanaged it's sad. He was supposed to be a scary villain but he came off as petty and crazy. The mirakuru gave him super powers and flamed his jealousy over Shado/Oliver into some pathetic revenge plot. If he hadn't been out of his mind, hallucinating Shado, they could have had him come after Oliver for trying to kill him, or abandoning him, or even because he was hired to. Waller said ARGUS was after Deathstroke, but that never made sense to me considering that Slade's whole plan was about hurting Oliver.

[hogwash]

Slade's story was so horribly mismanaged it's sad. He was supposed to be a scary villain but he came off as petty and crazy. The mirakuru gave him super powers and flamed his jealousy over Shado/Oliver into some pathetic revenge plot. If he hadn't been out of his mind, hallucinating Shado, they could have had him come after Oliver for trying to kill him, or abandoning him, or even because he was hired to. Waller said ARGUS was after Deathstroke, but that never made sense to me considering that Slade's whole plan was about hurting Oliver.

 

Deathstroke/Mirakuru was probably the biggest thing that s02 mismanaged. Even though I know next to nothing about the comics, I knew that Slade Wilson = Deathstroke; Deathstroke = BIG BADDIE!! So, I was excited to see how the show would handle Oliver/Slade's eventual falling out. Oliver was an earnest idiot and it seemed impossible that he would do anything that would result Deathstroke coming after him. Plus, Slade Wilson seemed like a very honorable man so why would he possibly become someone like Deathstroke? Billy Wintergreen arc made me assume the show had a good handle on it. Poor Shado, though. I was pretty livid when she got fridged but I was still optimistic that the show wouldn't be dumb enough to completely erase the character and reduce her death to a catalyst for other characters...

 

I just kept waiting for the show to expand further on the whole thing and they just never bothered. They just kept it as *Slade is super bummed about Shado dying and blames Oliver* and never tried to go beyond the surface of that even though they had 10+ episodes and an island-centric episode beyond Slade's ep9 reveal to do so. It was a faulty premise and there was not much that could have been done to salvage it, but if Slade was the only one (in his Mirakuru-rage) who believed it then maybe could have worked. But that's not what happened. Instead, everyone and their mother kept insisting that Oliver chose Sara over Shado and that it was Oliver's fault that Shado died and it was bad and the writers/showrunners should feel bad. I remember even Ivo blamed Oliver for it and I just sat there thinking what the FUCK? Even the guy who actually killed Shado is getting in on this?! I understand that the show is about Oliver and that they wanted something more Oliver-centric than the Undertaking, but they shouldn't have doubled down on THAT motivation. Every episode just made the whole thing seem dumber and dumber and unfortunately that bleed onto Slade/Deathstroke. To the point where not even Manu could make it work. Then they dropped the mastermind/chess master aspect of the character from the first half of the season and...yeah. 

 

Poor Island!Shado/Slade/Oliver. Their amazing island relationship deserved better than that.

[BkWurm1]

I'm thinking they should have actually had Oliver choose to save Sara and thus be at least on a twisted level somehow responsible or have him not choose anyone but able to save Sara before she's shot, something that would have been more real to build Slade's obsession on.  

[Password]

Yes it did get a little irritating when even Sara, whom was there and witnessed the whole thing, said Oliver chose her. But what was really bad was that in the final battle, Slade said it wasn't because of Shado...So I'm stumped as to what he's on about. Betrayal of a brother, the lies maybe? Then stop telling me it's about the choice!

[TanyaKay]

I think there are times when writers should go back and read their older scripts so that they would know what they have written and continue with that storyline.

For me, Shado was the strongest woman on the show - far stronger than Moira, Felicity or Sara. I mean Sara was there on the island but it was just bad luck and she desperately wanted to go back home, Shado actually went to island to look for her dad. Imagine living without proper sanitation and tampons for such a long time and that too willingly. She was the bad ass that put bad ass in the bad ass.

[calliope1975]

Shado actually went to island to look for her dad. Imagine living without proper sanitation and tampons for such a long time and that too willingly. She was the bad ass that put bad ass in the bad ass.

 

Sanitation and menstruation are always the first things I think about when I read/see stranded on an island stories. (Also post-apocalyptic stuff.) These are important things to think about, people!

[pootlus]

Dude, Shado was so badass she probably did some zen breathing and stopped her periods for as long as she needed.

Really bummed they killed her (and got rid of a great actress/martial artist in Celina Jade).

[KirkB]

You know there is something wrong with your storytelling and directing when the guy playing the part of the character the plot line is about is actually blindsided by the way the plot line turns out.

 

In his Mirakuru induced psychosis he spends a couple of years setting up an elaborate plot to ruin Oliver and tear down his city, only to reveal it's actually because the imagined ghost of his dead girlfriend (who was never actually his girlfriend) told him to, except it was never really that at all and he abandons the big plan for simply giving Oliver the same sadistic choice he accused him of making in the first place. Twice. Slade Wilson/Deathstroke is supposed to be a brilliant and utterly amoral sociopath who will kill anyone for money, not a whiny nutjob.

[Sakura12]

Sara did not say he choose her, she said he had an impossible choice and if he had chosen differently she would be the one haunting his dreams. And she told him multiple times that Ivo killed Shado, no one else did.

 

I also thought Oliver was kind of an ass to keep throwing that in her face like it was her fault she was alive. 

[manbearpig]

Oliver is kind of an ass in general though.

[Sakura12]

He is, that's why I wanted Sara to say back to him "You should've let me die then" after the 3rd time he said that to her. 

[TanyaKay]

If you see the whole trajectory of Oliver's character over last two seasons, you would notice that he has been an ass to just about everyone at some point or the other. He was the BIGGEST douche to Tommy for first sleeping with his girlfriend a couple of hours after telling him to go talk to her. Then he was an even bigger douche when he refused to take a punch from Tommy and a drunk on Scotch Tommy fell on the ground in season 1 finale before he died. He was an ass to Diggle when he chose to run after Rasmus in ep1x20 and left Diggle to die. Diggle was lucky that Deadshot only killed people for money and not for shit and giggles, otherwise Diggle would have died. He was an ass to his step father in first three or four episode, an ass to his mom and sister for consistently lying to them and then an even bigger ass by reacting the way he did to his mother's lies when they had nothing to do with him. He tore one to Laurel after he flaunted his relationship with his sister, in fact he was an ass to all his girlfriends because he was 'the boyfriend from hell'. He shot Roy with an arrow and he screamed at Felicity twice - first in episode 1x15 when she objected to his murderous ways and then in 2x10 when she was spending a lot of time with Barry.

With exception of Felicity, who received an apology both the times and a heartfelt hand holding with Moira after Thea's abduction, he did not really apologize to anyone. So yeah, he has been quite a douche with just about everyone on the show, but in my opinion, he was the douchiest with Tommy and then poor Tommy died. Still not over his death.

[manbearpig]

Interesting that you bring up Oliver shouting at Felicity in 2x10. At the time I remember Amell stating that it was not out of jealousy, but then recently he also said that when Oliver slept with Isobel in Russia he was thinking of Felicity or that Isobel was jealous of Felicity or something along those lines. Am I just confusing things?

 

I do think one of Oliver's meanest moment was the blow out with Moira after finding out that Thea was Malcolm's daughter, especially considering that most of the points he raised in that conversation could apply to him. Can't blame him for being upset, I guess, but there was probably a different way to handle that situation. I'm still a little annoyed that Moira get killed off before she could be all 'sorry about that time I shot you, son'. I would've loved to have seen her follow through on her threat to Felicity too. Not that I wanted anything bad to happen to Felicity, I just don't think Moira would've let  Felicity's meddling slide so easily.

[writersblock51]

 

You know there is something wrong with your storytelling and directing when the guy playing the part of the character the plot line is about is actually blindsided by the way the plot line turns out.

 

And even in his blindsidedness, Manu still delivered the hell out of his scenes. The man is a true professional and was able to pull me into his scenes even though the motivation was appallingly flimsy and the writing not always strong. 

 

In retrospect, the show's treatment of Shado and Slade are just awful.  I'm not sure a re-watch of Season 2 flashbacks will be enjoyable at all, given how things went down and finding out Manu's perspective about it all.  Also: no more Celinda Jade. 

 

Such a shame.  And it's very frustrating that the EPs don't seem to have a problem with any of it.  To hear them talk about it, Slade/Deathstroke was a brilliantly laid out storyline.

[dtissagirl]

Interesting that you bring up Oliver shouting at Felicity in 2x10. At the time I remember Amell stating that it was not out of jealousy, but then recently he also said that when Oliver slept with Isobel in Russia he was thinking of Felicity or that Isobel was jealous of Felicity or something along those lines. Am I just confusing things?

 

No, you're on point. First Amell hinted in interviews that Oliver would be jealous of Barry -- this was before the Christmas break, when they were hyping the Barry episodes. Then, after 210 aired, he said he didn't think Oliver was jealous. My reasoning for this is at this time he was filming the Sara/Oliver episodes, so it looked bad if he said Oliver was jealous of Felicity and a dude in a coma.

 

The thing about Isabel was at a con after the S2 finale: someone asked him why Isabel hated Felicity so much, and he said that it was that Oliver might have had his mind elsewhere when they hooked up.

 

In short, the message was changed to suit whatever needed to be spinned at the time. Hee.

[KirkB]

On the subject of Oliver being an ass, I have issues with his hypocrisy in general. While Oliver had every right to be pissed at Moira, for the Undertaking and Malcolm and Thea's true parentage, it bugs me to hear him talking to her, or Thea, or Laurel or Tommy or anyone else really, about lying when he has done nothing but since being rescued. He's a hero, yes, but he really need to be knocked off his high horse where honesty is concerned. Obviously he isn't going to tell anyone but Diggle and Felicity (and Roy, and Sara) he is running around the city in green leather, but don't get down on your little sister for lying to you when in the same damn conversation you are lying about where you went when your best friend and mom died or why the psycho in the eyepatch kidnapped her. Diggle, Felicity, Sara, Nyssa, Laurel, Slade, Malcolm and Waller all know he is the Arrow. It turns out Moira did too, and I'm willing to bet Quentin really does. When she comes back, the first thing I want Thea to do is smack the Arrow in the face and call him Oliver.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KirkB

[SmallScreenDiva]

Interesting that you bring up Oliver shouting at Felicity in 2x10. At the time I remember Amell stating that it was not out of jealousy, but then recently he also said that when Oliver slept with Isobel in Russia he was thinking of Felicity or that Isobel was jealous of Felicity or something along those lines. Am I just confusing things?

 

Nope, you're not confusing things. Stephen and the EPs were definitely hinting at Oliver being jealous over Barry before and even after the episodes aired. I think Stephen was even saying something like you don't know how you really feel about a girl until some other guy takes an interest or something. 

 

But his tune changed after Episode 2x13, right after Oliver and Sara hooked up. I guess they had to sell that pairing (why, I don't know. It apparently wasn't meant to last). Suddenly, Stephen and EPs started talking about a deeper and richer history between the two on the island. While I get that O/S bonded a lot during their time in Lian Yu, being on the verge of dying almost every day, they didn't really show the romantic history all that well in the flashbacks, in my opinion.

[Password]

While I get that O/S bonded a lot during their time in Lian Yu, being on the verge of dying almost every day, they didn't really show the romantic history all that well in the flashbacks, in my opinion.

It didn't set it up at all IMO. I kept waiting to understand their current relationship through the flashbacks but it didn't happen.

[FAU]

Slade's story was so horribly mismanaged it's sad. He was supposed to be a scary villain but he came off as petty and crazy. The mirakuru gave him super powers and flamed his jealousy over Shado/Oliver into some pathetic revenge plot. If he hadn't been out of his mind, hallucinating Shado, they could have had him come after Oliver for trying to kill him, or abandoning him, or even because he was hired to. Waller said ARGUS was after Deathstroke, but that never made sense to me considering that Slade's whole plan was about hurting Oliver.

 

Same here, I got sick and tired of him angsting about choosing when he never did and the finale was pretty underwhelming considering all the build up in the island flashbacks and all we got was that.

[Sakura12]

Oliver and Sara having sex on the island would've made more sense being that they were almost dying every day. That would probably make people want to enjoy whatever time they had left. 

 

In the present, comfort sex would've worked for me. I have no idea why they had them date. It didn't really add anything to the story. We know they cared about each other they didn't need to date to show that and their conflicts had nothing to do with them being together, it was their differing viewpoints on how to handle the bad guys which they still would've had as crime fighting partners.

 

That's why I don't really trust these writers to not randomly throw storylines at us without any reasons. Next season seems plenty full already and they keep adding more. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Sakura12

[SmallScreenDiva]

It didn't set it up at all IMO. I kept waiting to understand their current relationship through the flashbacks but it didn't happen.

 

I agree. The show botched the setup in present day. They probably could have "fixed" the flashbacks but failed to do that as well. The thing I'm pissed about is if they just said Oliver and Sara were having comfort sex, that would have worked for me. They were both kind of at low points, they definitely care for each other so yeah, the lunge makes sense in that context. Comfort sex. But the insistence that it was more than that was extremely irritating because the show never supported that claim with scenes.

 

Edited to add: What @Sakura12 just said above

Edited August 5, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[writersblock51]

Carrying over (carefully) from the Spoilers thread, I am, again, baffled as to why this show has so much problem writing Laurel to stand on her own merits.  If Season 3 is about her trying to figure out who she is, then it is nothing more than another throw-shit-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks for her.  It's a massive disservice to her and whoever she may try to emulate, if that's the case.

 

I do not understand how this show can possibly think this line of reasoning, when promoting her for Season 3, is good for her.  Or anyone, really.

 

Why on earth is it so hard to write Laurel as her own person?

 

On paper, she's an attorney working in the DA's office, daughter of a detective now captain, daughter of a university professor, worked as a lawyer-advocate (??? what was she in S1, I truly don't know) and has overcome personal traumas.

 

On screen, she's bitter, manipulative (blackmailing is her new thing), petulant, inconsistent and not all that successful of an attorney after all.  Plus, she's kinda dumb.

 

I truly don't understand how the show took what should have been a solid character and turned her into a largely unlikable mess.  And they still, 2 years later, have no idea what the hell to do with her.

 

The show has a lot of potential for exciting things in Season 3 but damn if anything attached to Laurel sounds like a hot mess to me.

Edited August 6, 2014 by writersblock51

[DrSpaceman10]

I am apathetic towards Laurel, however, in my opinion the show has never known what to do with her character. Even in the pilot she was understandably angry at Oliver in the beginning of the episode and then at the end she had forgiven him? I also think that the way Laurel has a tendency to come off sometimes (ie: seemingly having multiple personality disorder) is accidental. I don't think the writers mean to write her as having evil tendencies (as some people perceive her). Hopefully, they can write her more consistently this year. 

[TanyaKay]

you can blame writing but also acting choices of KC. In the first half of season 1, she could've made her character much more likeable by just delivering it differently and after that, the writers just gave up because she was not delivering it. I think the biggest flaw was in casting, then writing was ambiguous and then KC's acting skills (or lack of them), I think it all made rooting or writing for a positive Laurel kinda impossible. Although, I would be cheering on if they turn her into a darker bitchier version of herself.

[Angel12d]

I agree. I think the problems with Laurel's character are a combination of writing and acting choices. I lean more towards writing but sometimes there's something KC does that I find off-putting, like the huge smile when Sara handed her the infamous black leather jacket. Why would Laurel be smiling like that when she gets given a jacket? It just read like KC to me, like 'yeah finally I'm gonna be BC wooooo!' Ugh. 

 

A lot of the reason why I never rooted for Laurel is because I didn't understand her choices. I've seen some people say that her mistakes make her human, and there is that, but there wasn't just the odd small mistake. And when she jumped between hating and loving Oliver in the same episode I just couldn't root for someone who is so flighty in her emotions. A man cheats on you with your sister and that is it. It's over. Going back to him made her look foolish to me and I could never see past that.

 

And I'm trying to reserve judgment for s3 because I do want her character to change for the better because she isn't going anywhere  but using other characters like Felicity and Sara to support her while she becomes more likeable is not helping my issues. 

[catrox14]

I agree that it's for me, more KC's acting unless she is purposefully trying to play things ambiguously.  I thought the smile she had when Sara rescued the child from the burning building was not filled with pride of her sister but was far more filled with "Oh hellll  yeahs, I'mma get me some of that hero worship" and then her ridiculous shit-eating grin when she got Sara's jacket was icing on that the creepy cake.

Edited August 6, 2014 by catrox14

[icandigit]

I'm really concerned about the direction of the show if they can't write the basic overarching storyline of hero (budding hero) vs. villain.As much as might complain about other aspects of the show, this is the one thing I expect they get right. I wonder if they were just too  caught up in trying to Flash. My only hope is the fact they were able to pull off the dark archer in season 1.

 

Regarding KC.There was this criticism of fans on this other show I watch. How they only still like the character because they liked him in the beginning. Now that he made all these bad decisions they don't understand why he is still adored. Some of it is for shallow reason, he's cute and really charming in real life. But, a lot of it had to do with how he established his character. No matter what the writing did, you were able to find the character because of the actor.

 

I guess I just think that doing the work to establish the character on your own terms as an actor can overcome bad writing sometimes. And sometimes the writing can follow what you put out there for your character.

 

And I'm no con expert, but the actors I have seen clips of don't have to have all the answers about their characters. A lot of times they talk about what they would like to see. What they think their characters would do in certain situations.

[BkWurm1]

A lot of the reason why I never rooted for Laurel is because I didn't understand her choices.

 

I've decided this is the root of my problem with Laurel.  She doesn't make sense and it's a problem that started in episode one. 

 

Oliver is suddenly back from the dead   - hates his guts, wishes he was still dead  --- Ok, makes sense but not the part where she does a 180 and is all, I'm here for you, let's talk!  Oliver warns her off and instead of talking his advice and going forward with some understanding of what he must have gone through but no desire to get entangled with him again, (which is what I thought would be a reasonable attitude) she bumps into him and is back at stage one where she wishes he was dead but now it feels like it's because she got her feelings hurt cause he didn't want to spill his guts when she offered him an ear. 

 

Laurel kept going on like that, doing and saying things that worked against one another until everything is a murky mess of confusion and unpleasantness. 

[TanyaKay]

exactly, acting is not as superficial as people think it is - you don't just read the lines, you develop a person inside your head and there are a lot of things that you fill up in your head with discussions with writers and fellow actors. Case in point, Stephen Amell, and how in his head, Oliver does not drink and how he has fought with the producers when they showed him drinking.

Similarly, we see Felicity with straightened untied hair in first two episodes of the second season, but she was mostly in her ponytail after that barring a few scenes here and there. We later found out that Emily Bett Rickards fought to keep Felicity's ponytail and glasses intact despite a much more fashionable wardrobe because in her head, Felicity would not give up comfort (tied hair and glasses) over style. I am giving these two example here because people who comment here watch this show otherwise there are many many example from other TV shows and films. Especially if you have already shot 46 episodes, you should know your character like your very best friend.

Edited August 7, 2014 by TanyaKay

[statsgirl]

So it is the actor who is the keeper of the character?  Paul Blackthorne said at SDCC that Quentin Lance is a blue collar guy and he approached the changes his character goes through next season with that in mind.  (I remember an actor from The Lost World saying that in s1 they had a different writer for every episode and it was up to the actors to make sure their characters were consistent)

 

KC seems to have two ideas about Laurel:  comics!; and sister!.  Beyond that, she plays what's on the page at any given moment.  Laurel's back-and-forth is a problem but it could have worked if the core character had remained consistent.and Laurel been played with layers like Oliver or Moira or Diggle or just about every character on the show.

[Angel12d]

I've decided this is the root of my problem with Laurel.  She doesn't make sense and it's a problem that started in episode one. 

 

Oliver is suddenly back from the dead   - hates his guts, wishes he was still dead  --- Ok, makes sense but not the part where she does a 180 and is all, I'm here for you, let's talk!  Oliver warns her off and instead of talking his advice and going forward with some understanding of what he must have gone through but no desire to get entangled with him again, (which is what I thought would be a reasonable attitude) she bumps into him and is back at stage one where she wishes he was dead but now it feels like it's because she got her feelings hurt cause he didn't want to spill his guts when she offered him an ear. 

 

Laurel kept going on like that, doing and saying things that worked against one another until everything is a murky mess of confusion and unpleasantness. 

 

Exactly my issues. She just went back and forth on how she felt and acted accordingly and I just couldn't keep up. I would have preferred if she hated Oliver for at least half the season before maybe slowly warming up to him but it was barely an episode before she was talking to him again. I refuse to believe that she would do that after what he put her through.