S04.E09 Episode 9

[LuvMyShows]

7 hours ago, Gemini Gipsy said:

Trust.  No one wants this twisted Scooby & The Adultry Gang riding around in the Mystery Machine for all of season 5.

 

LOL!

1 hour ago, HOTNTX53 said:

I keep going over the 2 versions and it just dawned on me. Wouldn't the clothing that Alison's body was found wearing indicate which version was the truth?

In version #1 she had on the flowered dress and version #2 she had on a flowered top and dark jeans. Also, same goes for the bandaid. If I remember correctly, her body was found with the bandaid still intact on her injured finger.

Good point...so I guess we never saw what she was wearing when she was dead?

[HOTNTX53]

Not unless it's brought up later next season. We never really see what's under the coroner's sheet. We do see her face from a distance and a bit closer shot of her blue, swampy looking hand with a bandaid in it.

[AngelaHunter]

What I really want to see: Cole returning home and what happens with him and Luisa when she learns that even dead, Alison can wreck her life. I hope she's not just gone when the show comes back. I may be in the minority, but I like Luisa.

What I really liked: The zany comedy of the motel owner thinking Cole and Noah were a gay couple with their adopted son. Every show, no matter how serious and dramatic - and no matter how seriously it takes itself -  needs a lighter touch here and there for relief.  Also, going from those amusing scenes to hearing about Alison's death made it all the more shocking. There are a couple other series I watch where that lesson needs to be learned.

By the way, can anyone give me a short synopsis of when and how Alison "abandoned" Joanie? (I thought the series had ended, had a lot to catch up on and missed it) Did she leave her on a doorstep or street corner or something? Because giving custody over to the father is not abandonment.

[KBrownie]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

What I really want to see: Cole returning home and what happens with him and Luisa when she learns that even dead, Alison can wreck her life. I hope she's not just gone when the show comes back. I may be in the minority, but I like Luisa.

I like Luisa as well.  It's too bad that the show has never given her character a POV and the audience has never seen her from anyone else's perspective except the very biased and unreliable Alison and Cole.  I'd love to see what Catalina Sandino Moreno could do with Luisa's story from Luisa's perspective.  Plus, I think she's absolutely gorgeous.  

Walking away from her is going to be Cole's loss.  In my opinion, Luisa has shown more love and affection for him than Alison ever did.  Alison always needed Cole, but never really showed that she wanted him or loved him very much.  Luisa, on the other hand, doesn't need him like Alison always did, but wants and loves him.  Oh well.  It's his loss.  Luisa won't be around to save him from himself like she was before.  She has a lot to offer in terms of being a partner and wife to whoever wants her.  I'm sure she'll have no problem finding someone if she chooses to stop wasting her time with Cole.  She'll be well off after a divorce and is still young.  I just hate that she's likely going to be cast aside with nothing gained from that relationship after all the time and effort she expended without Cole doing the same for her.  No baby, no citizenship, it's just such a waste of a character.

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, KBrownie said:

I like Luisa as well.  It's too bad that the show has never given her character a POV and the audience has never seen her from anyone else's perspective except the very biased and unreliable Alison and Cole.  I'd love to see what Catalina Sandino Moreno could do with Luisa's story from Luisa's perspective.  Plus, I think she's absolutely gorgeous.  

Walking away from her is going to be Cole's loss.  In my opinion, Luisa has shown more love and affection for him than Alison ever did.  Alison always needed Cole, but never really showed that she wanted him or loved him very much.  Luisa, on the other hand, doesn't need him like Alison always did, but wants and loves him.  Oh well.  It's his loss.  Luisa won't be around to save him from himself like she was before.  She has a lot to offer in terms of being a partner and wife to whoever wants her.  I'm sure she'll have no problem finding someone if she chooses to stop wasting her time with Cole.  She'll be well off after a divorce and is still young.  I just hate that she's likely going to be cast aside with nothing gained from that relationship after all the time and effort she expended without Cole doing the same for her.  No baby, no citizenship, it's just such a waste of a character.

I hope Luisa takes up the Lobster Roll buyers on their offer and moves to Miami to work for them. They can sponsor her for a green card.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, KBrownie said:

It's too bad that the show has never given her character a POV and the audience has never seen her from anyone else's perspective except the very biased and unreliable Alison and Cole. 

Agree. I feel for her, with her "Second wife, second best" POV, which is often the case. She's an intelligent and competent woman who is rightfully outraged at her husband spending so much time and energy on their dime endlessly talking about/worrying about his fuckup of an ex-wife. I "get" her. Luisa, you can do better! She is personable, intelligent, charismatic, charming and gorgeous. Other people see value in her - moreso than does her mopey, dreary, boring, sadsack husband (who appears to view her as a nag, a shew and a burden), so I hope she moves on to better things.

[lightninggirl]

On 8/12/2018 at 1:01 PM, LilaFowler said:

What I want to know is, if jilted lover Ben was the last person to see her alive (which he readily admitted to Cole and Noah and presumably the police), why were the Montauk police so quick to call this a suicide? They haven't impressed me with their detective work.

I'm not a medical examiner, but i've been known to play one from time to time on the internet. (ahem)

If she was dead and then her head was bashed against the rocks, she'd have lesions but not bruising. She sustained her head wound in the apartment and then was transported to the water while clearly alive, and therefore her head wound(s) would show bruising. We also know she was alive when she hit the water as she had water in her lungs and she drowned. You'd think that an ME would be able to see that during the autopsy?

[casey65]

6 minutes ago, lightninggirl said:

I'm not a medical examiner, but i've been known to play one from time to time on the internet. (ahem)

If she was dead and then her head was bashed against the rocks, she'd have lesions but not bruising. She sustained her head wound in the apartment and then was transported to the water while clearly alive, and therefore her head wound(s) would show bruising. We also know she was alive when she hit the water as she had water in her lungs and she drowned. You'd think that an ME would be able to see that during the autopsy?

Thank you, finally! I feel like they rushed to a suicide conclusion very quickly.  And the line about her place being “immaculate” - no one thought maybe it was TOO immaculate, like someone cleaned up to cover up the signs of a struggle or blood? Didn’t they use the lamps that detect blood that was washed away - we saw her bleeding, and head wounds bleed profusely. Come ON. This is amateur hour stuff and we are supposed to believe it was all missed?

[Rockfish]

17 hours ago, Gemini Gipsy said:

Trust.  No one wants this twisted Scooby & The Adultry Gang riding around in the Mystery Machine for all of season 5.

 

Hard pass.

With a hook like this, how could I resist watching what would obviously be a kick-ass, awesome season? I’m in! 

4 hours ago, KBrownie said:

I like Luisa as well.  It's too bad that the show has never given her character a POV and the audience has never seen her from anyone else's perspective except the very biased and unreliable Alison and Cole.  I'd love to see what Catalina Sandino Moreno could do with Luisa's story from Luisa's perspective.  Plus, I think she's absolutely gorgeous.  

Walking away from her is going to be Cole's loss.  In my opinion, Luisa has shown more love and affection for him than Alison ever did.  Alison always needed Cole, but never really showed that she wanted him or loved him very much.  Luisa, on the other hand, doesn't need him like Alison always did, but wants and loves him.  Oh well.  It's his loss.  Luisa won't be around to save him from himself like she was before.  She has a lot to offer in terms of being a partner and wife to whoever wants her.  I'm sure she'll have no problem finding someone if she chooses to stop wasting her time with Cole.  She'll be well off after a divorce and is still young.  I just hate that she's likely going to be cast aside with nothing gained from that relationship after all the time and effort she expended without Cole doing the same for her.  No baby, no citizenship, it's just such a waste of a character.

I also like Luisa and would like to see her POV. 

Both versions of this latest episode made me sad. In the first, I found Ben creepy and just wanted Alison to make a clean break, but instead she let him fix her faucet and then felt obligated to let him and his b.s. stay over. (It’s this version where he talked about tying his wife up so he didn’t have to look at her, right? And Alison still hooked up with him? That’s nuts!) In version 2, I ended up feeling like a jerk because I was victim-shaming: I kept yelling at the TV for her to pretend she had to go get Joanie or to just walk outside.

Alison’s demise felt demoralizing to me, in a surprisingly strong way. I guess I’m getting old.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, casey65 said:

Didn’t they use the lamps that detect blood that was washed away - we saw her bleeding, and head wounds bleed profusely. Come ON. This is amateur hour stuff and we are supposed to believe it was all missed?

Yes. We're supposed to believe that every trace of blood was cleaned up in such a way that it couldn't be seen even with instruments and/or chemicals that can show blood even when it's been washed away. We're supposed to believe that a seasoned police officer says, "Water in her lungs. She must have jumped since suicide is the only way she could drown, therefore the only proof needed for a verdict of suicide. Case closed" and questions no further. Ben, with whom she had a relationship of sorts, (which according to him he wanted and she told him to get out after finding out he was married), was the last person to see her alive and the cops didn't come down on him like a ton of bricks? Gee.

[Bitsy]

This is the same detective who investigated Scotty Lockhart's murder for two years before putting the wrong person in prison. He's no Sherlock Holmes.

[PreBabylonia]

2 hours ago, Rockfish said:

With a hook like this, how could I resist watching what would obviously be a kick-ass, awesome season? I’m in! 

I also like Luisa and would like to see her POV. 

Both versions of this latest episode made me sad. In the first, I found Ben creepy and just wanted Alison to make a clean break, but instead she let him fix her faucet and then felt obligated to let him and his b.s. stay over. (It’s this version where he talked about tying his wife up so he didn’t have to look at her, right? And Alison still hooked up with him? That’s nuts!) In version 2, I ended up feeling like a jerk because I was victim-shaming: I kept yelling at the TV for her to pretend she had to go get Joanie or to just walk outside.

Alison’s demise felt demoralizing to me, in a surprisingly strong way. I guess I’m getting old.

I also really like Luisa, although I didn't initially when she met Cole (and was sleeping with loser Scotty).

I am fairly certain that Ben tied up his wife in the second version, not in the first. Of all the things he said, that might be the biggest red flag. When he shot the teen in version #1, I honestly thought it was in the heat of the battle thing. Although not right, it does happen frequently in war and sometimes, in police shootings.

[AngelaHunter]

49 minutes ago, PreBabylonia said:

I am fairly certain that Ben tied up his wife in the second version, not in the first.

I forced myself to rewatch that. He said it during the first version, while they were eating and after the story about shooting the boy. He said when he came home from Afghanistan, he couldn't stand the way his wife looked at him (apparently she wanted a knight in shining armour - *my words*) So he got "wasted", tied her face-down on the bed so he wouldn't have look at her face, and wouldn't let her go, even when his older kid started crying. He said he got clean after that and hasn't touched a drink, or her, since.

Edited August 20, 2018 by AngelaHunter
Forgot something.

[lightninggirl]

On 8/13/2018 at 7:29 AM, Blakeston said:

Ben was a creepy one.

I have absolutely hated Ben since the very second he appeared onscreen. Like, SPLIT SECOND. He is the guy that latches onto your vulnerable sister and you honestly cannot stand to be in the same room with him because he makes your skin crawl like scabies.

This is a testament to the writers and to the actor, as if this is the angle they were going for? I bit on that like a dog whose teeth got stuck in a car fender and is being drug along for the ride. 

/shudders

[PreBabylonia]

On 2018-08-19 at 11:33 PM, AngelaHunter said:

I forced myself to rewatch that. He said it during the first version, while they were eating and after the story about shooting the boy. He said when he came home from Afghanistan, he couldn't stand the way his wife looked at him (apparently she wanted a knight in shining armour - *my words*) So he got "wasted", tied her face-down on the bed so he wouldn't have look at her face, and wouldn't let her go, even when his older kid started crying. He said he got clean after that and hasn't touched a drink, or her, since.

Wow, I must have completely blocked that out, because I actually felt they had a chance in #1, until she charged the cell and I thought oversaw something ominous in Ben's phone. That was truly horrible, especially since their child was crying for mom. That alone would have made me want him to go far far away. Good on you for rewatching. I think it would be helpful to binge on the entire show but I just can't make myself wade thru it again.

On 2018-08-20 at 7:19 PM, lightninggirl said:

I have absolutely hated Ben since the very second he appeared onscreen. Like, SPLIT SECOND. He is the guy that latches

onto your vulnerable sister and you honestly cannot stand to be in the same room with him because he makes your skin crawl like scabies.

This is a testament to the writers and to the actor, as if this is the angle they were going for? I bit on that like a dog whose teeth got stuck in a car fender and is being drug along for the ride. 

/shudders

I instantly felt like Ben was shady from the first moment we met him, but it's a testament to the actor that I actually felt him become more and more attractive and my misgivings floated away. Until we saw him in Cole's episode at the AA meeting and finally in the second version with Allison. I am very impressed at how well Ramon Rodriguez conveyed the duplicity of the character. 

[Chas411]

I kind of went full circle with Alison in this episode. I thought she had a great moment of self realisation in the second version where she admitted she basically played the victim to excuse her bad behaviour. That she has two different men with Cole and Noah yet she always reverted to type and cheated. I was almost cheering her on and wondering why I had disliked her for so long and wondering was I actually going to miss her..

Then, as she floated down into the ocean she was back spieling about what a victim she was and I was like... K bye.

[yourmomiseasy]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:10 PM, lightninggirl said:

I'm not a medical examiner, but i've been known to play one from time to time on the internet. (ahem)

If she was dead and then her head was bashed against the rocks, she'd have lesions but not bruising. She sustained her head wound in the apartment and then was transported to the water while clearly alive, and therefore her head wound(s) would show bruising. We also know she was alive when she hit the water as she had water in her lungs and she drowned. You'd think that an ME would be able to see that during the autopsy?

Since it was stormy, it isn't outlandish to think she would have crashed into the rocks, sustaining head injury, prior to drowning in the case of a suicide.  In which case the perimortem head injuries in both scenarios (suicide vs homicide) would show similar signs of happening to living tissue.  However, I do feel like any contusions and lacerations from the statue would differ in shape, appearance, and residue than those from rocks -- especially if it was the base of the statue that hit her.  It is reasonable to assume though that since she was in the water for 3(?) days she was pretty beat up and had injury on top of injury and predation from sealife, making a thorough autopsy very difficult.  It seems odd to me that she still had her band-aid on, I can't make it through a shower with one.  (I've seen every episode of Bones, even the shitty ones, and most Law & Orders, and various other crime shows, so I'm basically an at home ME as well, especually if the zygomatic process or petechial hemorrhaging are involved)

[JenE4]

On 8/14/2018 at 8:16 PM, Snewtsie said:

Exactly what I thought would happen, too.  I think the writers wanted us to think that was what would be coming.  Little did we know what was actually coming was 100x worse. 

BTW- love how she fantasized about the better interior. The wood accent walls & fireplace were beautiful.  I kept thinking, "huh? But I remembered her apartment being pretty modest, and certainly she would not have made improvements because she rents it."  In the second version her apartment was back to normal- no fireplace, no accent walls, furniture that looked a bit shabby-chic like it was already there when she moved in... and I knew, "oh my god, fantasy over.  Now here we go..."

Yes!! That’s how I knew #1 was the fantasy version. She gave herself the full HGTV home makeover—replete with two wood accent walls (shiplap!), a gas fireplace, and all new furniture. Then #2 we were back to her sad white wicker furniture.

In the fantasy #1, she gets that “second act” she talked to Helen about, but instead of really changing, she just finds someone more emotionally fucked up than she is, but they accept each other—giving each other that forgiveness she could never give herself in life. I thought it was also interesting that her idea of a tragically shocking yet “forgivable” event was tying up and raping his wife—especially when she was a party of 2 earlier potential rape scenes: Cole raping her against the car on the night she met Noah (Noah’s perspective) and Noah raping her against the tree when she went to Athena’s commune or whatever it was (her perspective). She’s saying she doesn’t want to be a victim, yet she’s fantasizing her “soulmate” as victimizing his wife. There’s a whole lot to unpack there, but I guess as someone who has ALWAYS felt victimized by men she thinks they’re ALL going to hurt SOME woman, so at least it’s not her?!? But then her intuition about him was right—even worse than she imagined.

I was terrified when she was washing dishes she was going to be stabbed in the neck like Noah. (And same in #2–especially when she GAVE Ben the knife even though the cheese was already cut!) And if there’s one thing I took away from this show is invest in a dishwasher, people! But it was obvious she was washing dishes in #1, had this fantasy of how she hoped it would go (despite in that version not “expecting” him), heard a knock and started to come out of her daydream, and so in the fantasy took herself out of Ben’s arms to wash dishes. His second knock beginning of #2 wakes her out of it for good. The camera work sort of has her have a mind flash where the fantasy fixed drain starts dripping, she looks up, and realizes it’s raining too, then goes to answer the door for real, as she was expecting him this time, but it did NOT go as she had hoped.

However, I thought it was interesting that she was suicidal even in her fantasy. She says this life isn’t going to get any better and she hopes to have a better shot at Nirvana next time around as Athena believes. (And then the irony that the Hindu goddess statue is the murder weapon**.) And then it comes full circle that she’s alive in the water and has this whole soliloquy about giving up on this life...or something like that. So, I’m in agreement that it was murder AND suicide. First, it was accidental because he shoved her and the statue fell on her head rather than him striking her with it (I think), but then potential  accidental manslaughter does turn to murder when he premeditates dumping her in the ocean. But she wasn’t dead yet, and I think instead of that fight instinct kicking in for her to thrash in the water and save herself she does the ol’ Fiona Apple and Sinks Back Into the Ocean with the hope of a better shot at life next time around. Thanks, Hindu goddess statue.

**ETA: Nevermind. Just saw this clip in the next episode’s previouslies, and he slammed her head HARD into the furniture. I know they showed the statue on the ground next to her, but I don’t think we saw it hit her head.

Edited August 23, 2018 by JenE4

[AnnaCody]

On 8/12/2018 at 2:28 AM, DiabLOL said:

Same same same

I know I was thinking all of that.

I really think Alison got an Emile Zola-esque  moralizing ending and I really wish it hadn't gone that way. I want to believe in redemption. I want to forgive Alison and I want Alison to forgive Alison and not meet some horrible ending that could have been prevented if she'd only read Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift Of Fear". 

Don't miss that last line.  That book should be read by everyone....yes, I'm including men as women can be just as violent.  

[AnnaCody]

On 8/12/2018 at 1:01 PM, LilaFowler said:

Yeah, I don't know quite what to make of this. I'm annoyed and need to think about it some more.

What I want to know is, if jilted lover Ben was the last person to see her alive (which he readily admitted to Cole and Noah and presumably the police), why were the Montauk police so quick to call this a suicide? They haven't impressed me with their detective work. For all the more they doggedly sniffed around Scotty Lockhart's death, they brushed this off as a suicide based on circumstantial evidence. They didn't think it odd that Allison turns up dead after she'd broken up with her married boyfriend? Whatever.

But I suppose this will give Cole something to do next season.

First because she's a woman.  Second because they knew her past as being unstable.  Sadly, we are still seen as the weaker sex.....even now in the 21st century. 

[Jordan Baker]

I just watched the episode. Thank you, Netflix.

I think both actors did a great job in the two scenarios. Ruth Wilson, IMO, is an amazing actress, and I think she made Alison seem very real and very flawed. But I was almost always on her side, right up to the end. 

Ramon Rodriguez was also just excellent. With all the things he admitted to in Scenario 1, he still managed to make me understand why Alison forgave him. The only problem I have with him is that he looks like Mark Pena, Ron Livingston, and/or Mark Ruffalo. I'm distracted trying to figure out which one it is.

[grommit2]

On 11/24/2018 at 11:17 AM, AnnaCody said:

First because she's a woman.  Second because they knew her past as being unstable.  Sadly, we are still seen as the weaker sex.....even now in the 21st century. 

Alison may be a representative of the weaker sex, but, my gosh, she certainly had super powers over just about every man in this show. 

[millennium]

For a TV show, Alison's end was brutally realistic.  I used to watch a lot of Investigation Discovery and if there was one common denominator among female murder victims, it was their long history of making bad choices when it comes to men.   Many of them had either just broken free of the cycle or were really trying to make it on their own but for one reason or another simply couldn't escape the long-term consequences of their past mistakes.   The stalker ex-boyfriend or husband always catches up with them.

I saw the same thing here: Alison waking up to the truth at long last, except she was already in too deep.   Being too nice, too polite, letting that piece of shit into her apartment (I knew Ben was scum from the first time we saw him).

It's a stupid show but she deserved better.   All victims do.

[AngelaHunter]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:35 AM, millennium said:

, it was their long history of making bad choices when it comes to men.

I have come to the conclusion that Allison wasn't being constantly hit on by men, including the guy in the plane, because she's so irresistibly sexy or gorgeous. Allison had the demeanor of a submissive victim, which it seems is easily spotted by certain people.  

[millennium]

I can't help but think the showrunners were living vicariously through Ben.

[OrigamiNightmare]

Those that say that Ben was creepy/set off red flags right from the start, why do you feel that way? I liked him, I thought he seemed nice. The only thing that pinged my radar was when he was kind of pushing alcohol on her when they were on the boat. I'm constantly worried that I can't, won't, or don't pick up on signals of danger/unhealthiness in others (I have a history of getting stuck in or getting into abusive friendships/relationships).

[Razzberry]

13 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

Those that say that Ben was creepy/set off red flags right from the start, why do you feel that way?

I had alarm bells going off with Ben on day one.  Why?  Maybe I'm just cynical or the writing was bad, but in a nutshell, if something seems too good to be true, it almost certainly is.  

To refresh, within an hour of Alison meeting this handsome stranger with impeccable timing he literally rescues her from being throttled by a raging madman.

And what damsel doesn't love hearing this right off the bat? 

Oh please.  I don't think the writers intended for us to be suspicious of him at first, but it was all too perfect.  By the time of the boat ride I was certain he'd roofied the wine and her demise was imminent.  His motives were less clear to me.  Serial killers rarely date their victims, and robbery wasn't involved.  I think they're trying to blame PTSD but I'm not buying that either.

[OrigamiNightmare]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

I had alarm bells going off with Ben on day one.  Why?  Maybe I'm just cynical or the writing was bad, but in a nutshell, if something seems too good to be true, it almost certainly is.  

To refresh, within an hour of Alison meeting this handsome stranger with impeccable timing he literally rescues her from being throttled by a raging madman.

And what damsel doesn't love hearing this right off the bat? 

Oh please.  I don't think the writers intended for us to be suspicious of him at first, but it was all too perfect.  By the time of the boat ride I was certain he'd roofied the wine and her demise was imminent.  His motives were less clear to me.  Serial killers rarely date their victims, and robbery wasn't involved.  I think they're trying to blame PTSD but I'm not buying that either.

That's true, I've always got to remember that because it's true, if it seems to be too good to be true, it usually is. It's easy to get swept up into possible romance when you're lonely or desperate for affection and connection with another person. I thought the "someone I feel safe with, someone I can trust" thing was kind of sweet? Like, he was sort of reflecting what she might be thinking or feeling too? Like, essentially saying "don't worry, we can be safe with, and trust each other" or maybe a "I know how you feel" sort of thing? But maybe it was more of a manipulation?

I would be tempted to be attracted to Ben. However,  I'd like to think I'd run for the hills after he said those things about tying up his wife in version #1 or kicked him out the minute he picked up a drink in version #2. Though in reality I could probably be convinced or manipulated into letting those things go or backing down/away from any sort of conflict (not to get too confessional, but that's one of the reasons I'm afraid to date)

Edited August 22, 2019 by OrigamiNightmare