S04.E01 Smoke

[Lonesome Rhodes]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not so sure about that.  Boxers are experts at boxing.  They are not necessarily skilled in any other type of fighting.  If it were a boxing match, Ali would win easily.  In a street fight, I don't know.  

Lee would kill Ali, gun or no gun.  Lee was lightning quick on atack and in retreat.  Ali might never get a glove on him.  Lee's power was quite something and remarkable given his slight stature.  

5 hours ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

Did he though?  Given what we know about his storyline in BB?

As a Roman Catholic, of course not.  He chose evil. 

From the standpoint of the prison Mike felt himself in?  It was a great choice.  He had interesting tasks and projects to do and, he was establishing one helluva trust fund for the only thing he truly loved, his granddaughter.  I may be misrembering, but it seems that he went out of his way to avoid innocents being directly harmed.   Then again, perpetuating the flow of drugs which helped ruin so many lives didn't exactly help them.  I'm sure Mike would argue using drugs is ultimately a choice.  You choose to use?   You are not an innocent.

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy is capable of both empathy and feelings of guilt. A person can do the most awful things imaginable, even multiple murders, without being a sociopath or psychopath.

He shows some empathy and guilt, but he does seem to check off nearly all the other boxes.  I don't think someone has to display every sign of a personality disorder to have that disorder.  I'm not saying he is a sociopath or psychopath and he is a fictional character.  But he does share a lot of their characteristics.  In BB, he casually talks suggests shanking Badger in the chow line (to save money) and sending Hank on a trip to Belize.   

It could be that much of the guilt and remorse he displays is an act.  He could also be fooling himself and "feeling" the way he knows normal people are supposed to feel.  Also, his biggest moments of remorse that he acted on came on the heels of Kim's accident.  Perhaps nearly losing her gave him a brief spasm of humanity.   

I could also be that he just becomes more and more hardened over the years.  When you keep crossing more and more moral lines and forgive yourself for crossing them, you conscience can die.  I'd say that is more or less what happened to Walt.  

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, I'd have to back and look to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that Chuck was telling HHM that they would benefit from his personal talents in regulatory hearings. He had an ethical duty to disclose his condition to Mesa Verde   I'm pretty sure.

He sold his expertise (in a backhanded, "I'm so dull I read compliance journals all day" sort of way), and by rattling off a bunch of banking regulations, and Howard's contacts at the Fed.  Then he finished up by selling them on the resources of HHM.

Kevin: But I have to say, I have complete confidence in Ms. Wexler.

Chuck: You should. She was part of our team. She learned from us. You won't find better than Kim Wexler. But no matter how talented one individual may be, the needs of Mesa Verde are too big to handle alone. I wouldn't handle your coming expansion alone. Which is why you should consider, once again, enlisting a team of professionals. 

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Lee would kill Ali, gun or no gun.  Lee was lightning quick on atack and in retreat.  Ali might never get a glove on him.  Lee's power was quite something and remarkable given his slight stature.  

 

I will avoid an extended debate about this, but there is a reason why weight divisions exist in all fighting sports. 130 pound skilled fighters  of any kind, simply do not beat 220 pound skilled fighters, of any kind. Muhammed Ali took repeated blows from skilled  strikers weighing 100 pounds more than Bruce Lee  and remained fighting. Physics is physics, and no, Bruce lee was not 50% faster than professional boxers. e=mcsquared is a real thing.

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He shows some empathy and guilt, but he does seem to check off nearly all the other boxes.  I don't think someone has to display every sign of a personality disorder to have that disorder.  I'm not saying he is a sociopath or psychopath and he is a fictional character.  But he does share a lot of their characteristics.  In BB, he casually talks suggests shanking Badger in the chow line (to save money) and sending Hank on a trip to Belize.   

I think he took a wrong turn early in life.  When seeing his father be soft on hard luck stories, not every kid would decide his father was a joke and that he'd rather be the wolf than the sheep.  He could have instead seen his father as goodhearted and kept an eye out for scammers and been protective rather than disdainful.  In his formative years he lacked empathy for his father and began stealing from him.  He obviously retained some ability to care about people like the elders and Kim, and was more attentive than I would have been to Chuck, so it's not that he's starkly unable to put himself in someone else's shoes.  He chooses at times to mess with people for fun and excitement.  Not entirely normal or healthy.  And then it gets worse from there, as we know. 

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He sold his expertise (in a backhanded, "I'm so dull I read compliance journals all day" sort of way), and by rattling off a bunch of banking regulations, and Howard's contacts at the Fed.  Then he finished up by selling them on the resources of HHM.

Kevin: But I have to say, I have complete confidence in Ms. Wexler.

Chuck: You should. She was part of our team. She learned from us. You won't find better than Kim Wexler. But no matter how talented one individual may be, the needs of Mesa Verde are too big to handle alone. I wouldn't handle your coming expansion alone. Which is why you should consider, once again, enlisting a team of professionals. 

If, at any time, Chuck stated that he would personally appear at regulatory hearings, he had a duty to disclose. We will agree to disagree on the likelihood of that. The larger point, that Chuck violated legal ethics, and that Jimmy and/or Kim could have ruined HHM's relationship with Mesa Verde, while remaining completely within legal ethics, had they been willing to ruin Chuck, stands.

[Bryce Lynch]

52 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Lee would kill Ali, gun or no gun.  Lee was lightning quick on atack and in retreat.  Ali might never get a glove on him.  Lee's power was quite something and remarkable given his slight stature.  

As a Roman Catholic, of course not.  He chose evil. 

From the standpoint of the prison Mike felt himself in?  It was a great choice.  He had interesting tasks and projects to do and, he was establishing one helluva trust fund for the only thing he truly loved, his granddaughter.  I may be misrembering, but it seems that he went out of his way to avoid innocents being directly harmed.   Then again, perpetuating the flow of drugs which helped ruin so many lives didn't exactly help them.  I'm sure Mike would argue using drugs is ultimately a choice.  You choose to use?   You are not an innocent.

What if Ali had the gun? :)

Mike did try to avoid harming innocents.  But, his drug truck robbery led to the death of an innocent person.  That is probably why he didn't want to do the train robbery in BB, and of course that led to the death of an innocent child.  

It is interesting, that with the notable exception of the indirect deaths in the Wayfarer 515  crash, very few people who were not in some way "in the game" were killed on BB.  I can only think of Hank, the clerk that Skank and Spooge killed in the "victimless crime" of stealing the ATM, and Drew Sharp.  Of course that doesn't count the reign of terror by the Cousins, (the DEA agent with the Tortuga Bomb, the coyote, the illegal aliens in the hay truck, Mrs. Peyketewa, the Tribal Police officer and the bystander during the attempted assassination of Hank.  

I think the clerk being killed in the ATM robbery and the Wayfarer 515 crash were to remind us that the meth trade has a lot of indirect victims. 

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I will avoid an extended debate about this, but there is a reason why weight divisions exist in all fighting sports. 130 pound skilled fighters  of any kind, simply do not beat 220 pound skilled fighters, of any kind. Muhammed Ali took repeated blows from skilled  strikers weighing 100 pounds more than Bruce Lee  and remained fighting. Physics is physics, and no, Bruce lee was not 50% faster than professional boxers. e=mcsquared is a real thing.

The guys hitting Ali were wearing heavily padded gloves, as was he of course.  

This is starting to sound like an argument between Badger and Skinny Pete...I love it. :)  How about Ali and Lee vs. Nazi Zombies?

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If, at any time, Chuck stated that he would personally appear at regulatory hearings, he had a duty to disclose. We will agree to disagree on the likelihood of that. The larger point, that Chuck violated legal ethics, and that Jimmy and/or Kim could have ruined HHM's relationship with Mesa Verde, while remaining completely within legal ethics, had they been willing to ruin Chuck, stands.

Chuck never said he would personally appear, though MV might have reasonably assumed that he would   When the hearing took place, Howard asked Chuck if he really needed to be there saying Chuck had called it a formality.  Chuck said he wanted to be there "to send the right message" and because "I find victory laps very comforting".  

Ironically, if Chuck had chosen not to go to the hearing for those ego motivated reasons, Jimmy would not have had a chance to sneak the original "1216" Mesa Verde documents back into Chuck's files, he wouldn't have pissed off Paige and Kevin at the hearing and Jimmy  would have been busted, or at the least, Chuck would have been vindicated and Jimmy strongly suspected.  

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What if Ali had the gun? :)

Mike did try to avoid harming innocents.  But, his drug truck robbery led to the death of an innocent person.  That is probably why he didn't want to do the train robbery in BB, and of course that led to the death of an innocent child.  

It is interesting, that with the notable exception of the indirect deaths in the Wayfarer 515  crash, very few people who were not in some way "in the game" were killed on BB.  I can only think of Hank, the clerk that Skank and Spooge killed in the "victimless crime" of stealing the ATM, and Drew Sharp.  Of course that doesn't count the reign of terror by the Cousins, (the DEA agent with the Tortuga Bomb, the coyote, the illegal aliens in the hay truck, Mrs. Peyketewa, the Tribal Police officer and the bystander during the attempted assassination of Hank.  

I think the clerk being killed in the ATM robbery and the Wayfarer 515 crash were to remind us that the meth trade has a lot of indirect victims. 

The guys hitting Ali were wearing heavily padded gloves, as was he of course.  

This is starting to sound like an argument between Badger and Skinny Pete...I love it. :)

The gloves increase the mass, thus making the blows more dangerous to the person being hit. The purpose of the gloves is to protect the hands of the striker, not the brain of the person being hit.

Since I've followed fight sports since I was 7, and started sparring myself since mid teens, I've hated, hated, hated, the action movie trope of a tiny skilled fighter being able to beat a large skilled fighter, which is why I liked that scene last night so much.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

When you are still lining your suit coat with foil, because in the recent past your aversion to electricity has caused you to be suddenly hospitalized for days, and you are telling your potential client to hire you, because you'll be great in upcoming regulatory hearings, yes, you have an obligation to disclose that. Just like you would if you had MS, and in the relatively recent past it had rendered you unable to work.

I've never heard of a lawyer having an obligation to disclose a disease like MS to a client. I've heard about an obligation to disclose a disease in extreme cases (like a lawyer who knows he's about to die, and knows that his client won't have any representation if he's unavailable).

But a lawyer like Chuck, who had other qualified attorneys at his firm who regularly stepped in for him? I've never heard anything suggesting that he'd have an obligation to tell his clients about his health problems. Even if he'd held himself out as an expert.

If Chuck failed to disclose his condition, and then the client lost their case because Chuck abandoned them and hid under his space blanket while the statute of limitations expired, then he might be liable for malpractice. But we have no reason to think that would happen. Chuck wasn't handling cases entirely on his own.

[walnutqueen]

I am so very happy that this show is finally back!  Much like Breaking Bad, it raises the bar for quality and excellence in story-telling; something sorely lacking in most of TV fare.  I appreciate the fact that it is never "dumbed down" to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I enjoy all the different story arcs, but Mike, much like Saul, is one of my favorite characters of all time.

Also, I tend to think that labels like sociopath & psychopath are thrown around far too freely these days (but that's in part due to my personal experience with the real deals, and partly because I feel like everyone with Google thinks they're a diagnostician).  ;-)

Don't even get me started on who can and cannot win in a street fight.  

[msrachelj]

19 hours ago, Pat Hoolihan said:

Zafiro Anejo tequila makes an appearance. That is the tequila that in BB Gus poisons and gives to Eladio. It is a purely fictional brand, made up by the BB team because they failed in getting product placement. It is supposed to be extremely expensive, and so it was an extra special gift to Eladio.  Was Kim's obtaining a bottle a part of a previous episode? I sort of vaguely recall it but I'm not sure.

oh damn. i was going to  try to find it at the liquor store just because i love the bottle!

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Final thought - anyone get Walter White vibes from the dude he stole the security badge from? (If this was already noted 45849 times, I apologize. I'm posting real quickly before I have to go.)

When we first see him, I was confused as to who he was. He looked and walked somewhat like Mike, but he sounded like Jimmy, at least to me. I assume Mike chose to steal HIS badge because of the resemblance.

 

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The ending didn't feel right to me.

Jimmy spent most of the episode feeling guilty about Chuck's death. He knew that the fire wasn't an accident. Then he finds out that his sabotage of Chuck's insurance policy played a huge role in driving him to suicide - meaning that Jimmy played an even bigger role than he realized - and suddenly he feels fine?

I get that he decided to let Howard take the fall for it, even though the shoe didn't really fit - any excuse to put the blame on someone else. But if he's that heartless now, why was he agonizing about Chuck's death a few minutes earlier?

Before Howard said it was likely a suicide, did Jimmy know this? Maybe he suspected, maybe not. He said to Kim that something must have happened to push Chuck over the edge because five days earlier Chuck was completely fine. It was apparent that Jimmy was thinking about this a lot, wondering what could have happened, probably wondering if he, Jimmy, was responsible for Chuck's fatal downfall. Although Chuck had been sick for years, he'd been surviving. Jimmy staged things that physically hurt Chuck (like the night at the copier store) and simply destroyed him (the whole trial). Since learning that Chuck had died, Jimmy was almost catatonic. But when Howard reveals that he pushed Chuck out because of the malpractice insurance, that's the excuse Jimmy needs to let go of his pain, to drop his cross onto Howard's back to carry. It's shocking that Jimmy can do this so easily, but it is another step in his transformation into Saul.

[msrachelj]

16 hours ago, 100Proof said:

Who remembers all these details from any show's previous seasons, lol. Rebecca? Who the heck is Rebecca?  And Jimmy squealed to the insurance company Chuck's condition?  What the heck was Cheese Nacho doing with the pills? I forget. He didn't want his father to getting coerced by the cartel or something.... lol.

 

throwing the bottle and the pills in the water was a real wtf!  pretty dumb move for a gangster who should know better. even i know better than to do that. 

15 hours ago, Bannon said:

To follow on, what I love about this writing is that they never have characters suddenly become idiots, so as to  advance the story.

except when they are out in public disposing of a  weapon (pills)that would incriminate them.

Edited August 7, 2018 by msrachelj
add

[AndyAxel]

10 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

oh damn. i was going to  try to find it at the liquor store just because i love the bottle!

You could always opt for Clase Azul Ultra, but a fifth is more than a house payment.

https://www.claseazul.com/clase-azul-ultra

[Blakeston]

12 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Before Howard said it was likely a suicide, did Jimmy know this? Maybe he suspected, maybe not. 

JImmy said earlier in the episode that Chuck knew how to operate the lanterns properly. I think he had to be suspecting that Chuck intentionally killed himself.

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I've never heard of a lawyer having an obligation to disclose a disease like MS to a client. I've heard about an obligation to disclose a disease in extreme cases (like a lawyer who knows he's about to die, and knows that his client won't have any representation if he's unavailable).

But a lawyer like Chuck, who had other qualified attorneys at his firm who regularly stepped in for him? I've never heard anything suggesting that he'd have an obligation to tell his clients about his health problems. Even if he'd held himself out as an expert.

If Chuck failed to disclose his condition, and then the client lost their case because Chuck abandoned them and hid under his space blanket while the statute of limitations expired, then he might be liable for malpractice. But we have no reason to think that would happen. Chuck wasn't handling cases entirely on his own.

http://www.lawyersmutualnc.com/blog/failure-to-disclose-a-heath-problem-could-be-malpractice

 

https://professionalliabilitymatters.com/2014/04/08/failure-to-disclose-health-condition-is-grounds-for-malpractice/

Beyond a terminal illness...

"The court framed the issue as one of foreseeability. Accordingly, attorneys are not obligated to disclose common, less serious ailments so long as the attorney reasonably foresees that the condition will not negatively impact the representation. In the foregoing scenario, the dire diagnosis seems to support the court’s conclusion but there are other instances when the attorney’s duty is not so clear.

Communication between attorney and client is necessary to effective representation.  Where an attorney knows that her ability to represent the client may be limited by personal circumstance, the attorney must take immediate action to inform the client of the limitation and pursue available options to maintain the client’s interests.  Failure to take early action to keep the client reasonably informed could result in liability."

Chuck knows for a fact that his condition has in the recent past required, without any warning whatsoever,  his extended hospitalization. He currently is treating himself to mitigate the debilitating aspects of his condition. If he is telling prospective clients that his services will be available to them in upcoming regulatory meetings, he needs to disclose thoe factors which he can reasonably forsee as preventing that. He can reasonably forsee his possible need for sudden hospitalization due to his condition. Howard can as well  of course, so HHM is definitely on the hook as well.

41 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

throwing the bottle and the pills in the water was a real wtf!  pretty dumb move for a gangster who should know better. even i know better than to do that. 

except when they are out in public disposing of a  weapon (pills)that would incriminate them.

Eh, like I said elsewhere, that didn't bother me, because Gus would have had very strong suspicions about Nacho in any case. I see this as the writers in this instance merely showing us instead of telling us. 

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Penman61 said:

And what did newly minted lawyer Chuck do between passing the bar and starting up HHM?  I don't recall if we have a definite age on Chuck, but he's got to be pushing 60 when he dies, and didn't Howard say he was at HHM for 19 years?  

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

 

5 hours ago, 100Proof said:

He was one of the guitar players in Spinal Tap.

He also spent a lot of time sexually harassing Laverne and Shirley

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

He also spent a lot of time sexually harassing Laverne and Shirley

I think Lenny would have hit it off a lot better with Jimmy than Chuck did. 

[FortKnox]

5 hours ago, 100Proof said:

He was one of the guitar players in Spinal Tap.

Wrong. He moved to  Milwaukee, Wisconsin, changed his name Lenny Kosnowski and got a job driving trucks for Shotz Brewery while rooming with a guy called Squiggy.

[Bannon]

Don't forget the brief sabbatical Chuck took at the turn of the century to show his prized Shih Tzu! The whole thing kinda' was disconcerting to Rebecca!

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

With regard to ethics, Chuck was about as rank a hypocrite imaginable. It was unethical for Chuck to not reveal what he thought was a physical intolerance to electricity to HHM's insurer. It was unethical for him to store vital client documents in a building that is not up to code, and is a fire hazard. It was unethical for him to represent himself to Mesa Verde as being fully capable of representing them, without disclosing that being close to electrical currents has in the past rendered him nonfunctional for extended periods.

Chuck complaining about Jimmy's ethics is like a gorilla criticizing a chimp for not having opposable thumbs.

This is just not correct, at least from my experience or in my state.  Speaking from personal experience, an attorney does not have to disclose health issues or illnesses to his malpractice insurer.  I have never been asked this on any annual renewal questionnaire.  You do not have to disclose your illnesses to clients.  Perhaps you must decline cases/clients if you cannot represent them at all times, but you never have to tell clients about your chronic illnesses.  You must make sure you have coverage if you cannot work on a case.   Think of the discrimination issues if your malpractice insurer raised your rates because you were mentally ill.  I have really griped about this story line since last year and I stand on that now.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, GussieK said:

This is just not correct, at least from my experience or in my state.  Speaking from personal experience, an attorney does not have to disclose health issues or illnesses to his malpractice insurer.  I have never been asked this on any annual renewal questionnaire.  You do not have to disclose your illnesses to clients.  Perhaps you must decline cases/clients if you cannot represent them at all times, but you never have to tell clients about your chronic illnesses.  You must make sure you have coverage if you cannot work on a case.   Think of the discrimination issues if your malpractice insurer raised your rates because you were mentally ill.  I have really griped about this story line since last year and I stand on that now.

I would refer you to the  cites I made elsewhere in the thread. A lawyer's estate lost a malpractice suit for failing to disclose a terminal illness, and the court's decision stated that the obligation to disclose was not limited to only terminal conditions.

[EtheltoTillie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I would refer you to the  cites I made elsewhere in the thread. A lawyer's estate lost a malpractice suit for failing to disclose a terminal illness, and the court's decision stated that the obligation to disclose was not limited to only terminal conditions.

Yes, I read it.  I happen to live in NY also.  The case had very extreme facts and thus has limited applicability.  The case had been neglected for over a year by two attorneys, one of whom was convicted of a federal crime and the other who was ill.  The statute of limitations was about to expire.  That is the key factor.  The deceased attorney had already neglected the case for too long.  I have told clients I was going for surgery just as I tell them if I'm going on vacation.  I might not come out of the anesthesia or I might die in a plane crash.  Then if there is a current urgency in their cases they would have alternates to help them.  But I don't tell them my health problems.  The obligation is to make sure the client's problem is handled, not to bare all your own problems to clients.  If you did, the clients would run for the hills.  You are not obligated to fall on your own sword that way.  Come on! 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Yes, I read it.  I happen to live in NY also.  The case had very extreme facts and thus has limited applicability.  The case had been neglected for over a year by two attorneys, one of whom was convicted of a federal crime and the other who was ill.  The statute of limitations was about to expire.  That is the key factor.  The deceased attorney had already neglected the case for too long.  I have told clients I was going for surgery just as I tell them if I'm going on vacation.  I might not come out of the anesthesia or I might die in a plane crash.  Then if there is a current urgency in their cases they would have alternates to help them.  But I don't tell them my health problems.  The obligation is to make sure the client's problem is handled, not to bare all your own problems to clients.  If you did, the clients would run for the hills.  You are not obligated to fall on your own sword that way.  Come on! 

You forsee a medical condition that will render you unable to render service, the surgery, and you tell them. Similarly, Chuck can reasonably forsee his condition (he was still lining his jacket with foil, as means of alleviating it, for goodness sakes) at the time of the Mesa Verde meeting as requiring his hospitalization for several days, without forwarning  because it has happened recently. If he is telling Mesa Verde that his services will be available at these critical hearings, he really does need to at least say something along the lines of "I do have a medical condition which occasionally has required me to be away from work for a few days, but if it were to occur when your hearing is scheduled, don't worry,  the bases will be covered, which is why you need a large firm like HHM". 

I can't recall if Howard was made aware that the ER doctor called into question Chuck's competency,  but if so, HHM's exposure grows immensely. Certainly the way in which documents were stored is unacceptable  and provided a means for Jimmy and/or Kim to alienate HHM from Mesa Verde, without any ethical violations.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Litigators,

We are getting a bit far afield for this episode thread.  If it is not specifically show related, (Lee vs. Ali) lets head over to Small Talk.  If you are discussing a particular character outside of the episode, head to their thread.  There is even a thread for Jimmy and Chuck's relationship.  Legal issues?  You can't call Saul yet, so how about heading to the Legally Speaking thread.  A little winding around the topic is fine, but it's starting to look like a bowl of spaghetti.  

We appreciate the passion, the interest, the debating skills (like good attorneys in training).  In this thread, let's discuss this slow burn of an episode that is leading us into another season of watching Jimmy McGill become Saul Goodman, moving from advertising on billboards to public benches, y'know, like the classy lawyers do! 

[Bannon]

Sorry about that...

[ItCouldBeWorse]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

When the medical condition has in the relatively recent past rendered you completely nonfunctional, without warning, and you are telling the client that he should retain you for your particular expertise in the setting of time critical regulatory hearings, it really is indisputable that Chuck had an ethical obligation to disclose the condition to Mesa Verde. None of this excuses Jimmy's actions, but Jimmy really could have buried Chuck then and there, without any unlawful or unethical behavior from Jimmy.

Part of Chuck's condition is that he doesn't think he has a serious condition that could impede his work.

Edited August 8, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Clanstarling]

22 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I enjoyed this premiere.  It was surprisingly comforting with small moments of tension like the opening, or when the car wouldn't start and I feared there was a car bomb, or with Nacho trying to get rid of the pills while Gus watched silently....  And there are few things I enjoy more than watching Mike take care to do something with competence.

I loved the Omaha opening, and I too thought there was a car bomb. And for just a flash, I wondered if the little boy was one of Jesse's Breaking Bad friends. 

13 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Jimmy can never bury the hatchet unless it is in his "enemies" skull.  I don't think anyone ever gets off of Jimmy's shit list.  He always has to get the last word,  the last dig.

Sounds like Jimmy and Chuck are cut from the same cloth, then.

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The ending didn't feel right to me.

Jimmy spent most of the episode feeling guilty about Chuck's death. He knew that the fire wasn't an accident. Then he finds out that his sabotage of Chuck's insurance policy played a huge role in driving him to suicide - meaning that Jimmy played an even bigger role than he realized - and suddenly he feels fine?

I get that he decided to let Howard take the fall for it, even though the shoe didn't really fit - any excuse to put the blame on someone else. But if he's that heartless now, why was he agonizing about Chuck's death a few minutes earlier?

I was surprised about it, but you know, I think this was probably less than a week after Chuck's death. Some people can take a long time to really feel it (the stages of grief and all), and often react in weird ways at first. I berated myself for feeling "normal" after my mother's death - until it came crashing down on me 8 months later - then I realized I hadn't been fine at all, just in a prolonged state of shock or denial. I expect we'll be seeing more reactions from Jimmy as the season goes forward.

I found Howard's "confession" really moving, and think he was being sincere.

I was pretty excited to see the show again, though I should have rewatched at least part of last season - the final episode anyway. I don't mind slow, as long as its showing me character development, which this one did for me.

I am hoping that Nacho being in charge of the Salamancas will allow him to walk back Hector's insistence on using his father's business. Seems like he should be able to - since Hector didn't exactly run that up the chain of command.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I loved the Omaha opening, and I too thought there was a car bomb. And for just a flash, I wondered if the little boy was one of Jesse's Breaking Bad friends. 

Sounds like Jimmy and Chuck are cut from the same cloth, then.

I was surprised about it, but you know, I think this was probably less than a week after Chuck's death. Some people can take a long time to really feel it (the stages of grief and all), and often react in weird ways at first. I berated myself for feeling "normal" after my mother's death - until it came crashing down on me 8 months later - then I realized I hadn't been fine at all, just in a prolonged state of shock or denial. I expect we'll be seeing more reactions from Jimmy as the season goes forward.

I found Howard's "confession" really moving, and think he was being sincere.

I was pretty excited to see the show again, though I should have rewatched at least part of last season - the final episode anyway. I don't mind slow, as long as its showing me character development, which this one did for me.

I am hoping that Nacho being in charge of the Salamancas will allow him to walk back Hector's insistence on using his father's business. Seems like he should be able to - since Hector didn't exactly run that up the chain of command.

Nacho may be able to seperate his father's business from the cartel's business, but he's in charge now, which means it's on him to find a place for cartel business, anf if he fails, it means the Salamanca part of the cartel's distribution is threatened, which means the rest of the Salamanca cartel, including the cousins, are going to murderously angry.

I suspect Nacho is about to find out that being the boss can really suck.

[100Proof]

3 hours ago, FortKnox said:

Wrong. He moved to  Milwaukee, Wisconsin, changed his name Lenny Kosnowski and got a job driving trucks for Shotz Brewery while rooming with a guy called Squiggy.

How could I forget! But that was only when they weren't on tour, lol

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, wendyg said:

Dev F: I think the chronology may be the one place the writers went a little overboard. If Chuck was this genius - college at 14, top in everything at Georgetown Law, it raises a larger question: why did he pick Albuquerque to settle into law practice? With all those credits, he could have gone anywhere. And we know he was ambitious. Why wouldn't he have been angling at SCOTUS or some other top job?

They actually sort of lay out how Chuck ended up in Albuquerque in his obituary: After going to college and law school on the East Coast, he stayed in the area for his first clerkship, at the prestigious Delaware Court of Chancery, which handles corporate litigation in the business-friendly state. Then he moved on to the US Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit, which serves six western states, including New Mexico. Presumably he moved to Albuquerque or thereabouts because his judge was based there.

8 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I am hoping that Nacho being in charge of the Salamancas will allow him to walk back Hector's insistence on using his father's business. Seems like he should be able to - since Hector didn't exactly run that up the chain of command.

Didn't Juan Bolsa put the kibosh on that plan in last year's season finale? The whole reason Hector needed his medication during their meeting was because he was so angry over the fact that Bolsa ordered him to keep bringing in his product via Gus's trucks instead of reestablishing his own route.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

Well, that's what I mean. It is plausible that Chuck's prestige insulated him, and HHM, from consequences, especially since Chuck exited the firm shortly after his condition became known to the Bar Association.

That's what makes him interesting. I hate fiction which have sociopaths/paychopaths as central characters, because people who are incapable of empathy, and feelings of regret and guilt, are for the most part very tedious. 

Like Hector, perhaps. Or Tuco. No obvious redeeming qualities.

[Irlandesa]

13 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

As cold as Jimmy's response to Howard dissolving into a weepy mess over his guilt was, it made a certain amount of sense to me without simply chalking it up to "oh, he's evil Saul now."  Jimmy had spent most of his scenes as completely shellshocked.  As he told Kim, he knew something must have happened because when he last saw Chuck five days ago, he was seemingly fine, listening to jazz with the lights on.  Howard even confirms that Chuck was "better," because apparently neither of them realize that's when a person who may be suicidal or has nothing left to lose is at their most dangerous. 

So while Jimmy may have loaded the gun, Howard is still the one who pulled the trigger.  At least in Jimmy's eyes. 

He's willing to let Howard assume the blame but I don't get the sense that he's placing the blame on Howard.  Otherwise, I think he would have tried to add onto Howard's guilt.  Howard did admit Chuck was getting better until the insurance thing.  I think it was then that Jimmy realized that the 'something' that pushed Chuck over the edge happened earlier than he had originally assumed; that Chuck was playacting during the final meeting between the two.  He wasn't "better" at that point.  He had actually regressed in relation to the insurance stunt.

But I could be reading that wrong so I'm sure we'll see more in upcoming episodes.

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

Really disagree that D & M was well managed. They have a gold mine in the Sandpiper case, that has just been given to them, if they have any skill at all in managing it. They claim to be opposed to television marketing, but when Jimmy shows the possible results, their ethical objections are tossed in a moment, and they start running their own, non-Jimmy produced commercials. Their commercials suck like a plutonium powered vacuum, however, and instead of displaying 3 digit IQs, however, and instead of farming out the work to Jimmy,  who is good at it ,with D&M insulated, they prefer to suck at marketing. That is not skillful management.

Yes, the Davis and Main advertisements were boring and not very effective at recruiting Sandpiper clients but the difference between Jimmy and D&M was that D&M was much more than Sandpiper.  Their commercials aligned with their established brand--a successful brand-- which targeted a different clientele overall than the scare tactics ad Jimmy went with.

But the commercials weren't even what did Jimmy in.  He got another chance and then he chose to self-sabotage in order to get fired rather than say "this place isn't for me so good-bye." Jimmy knew who D&M were.  It's why Clifford was confused that Jimmy would take a job with them knowing who they were.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Irlandesa

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Like Hector, perhaps. Or Tuco. No obvious redeeming qualities.

Correcting myself to add that Tuco respects his abuelita. 

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

He's willing to let Howard assume the blame but I don't get the sense that he's placing the blame on Howard.  Otherwise, I think he would have tried to add onto Howard's guilt.  Howard did admit Chuck was getting better until the insurance thing.  I think it was then that Jimmy realized that the 'something' that pushed Chuck over the edge happened earlier than he had originally assumed; that Chuck was playacting during the final meeting between the two.  He wasn't "better" at that point.  He had actually regressed in relation to the insurance stunt.

But I could be reading that wrong so I'm sure we'll see more in upcoming episodes.

Yes, the Davis and Main advertisements were boring and not very effective at recruiting Sandpiper clients but the difference between Jimmy and D&M was that D&M was much more than Sandpiper.  Their commercials aligned with their established brand--a successful brand-- which targeted a different clientele overall than the scare tactics ad Jimmy went with.

But the commercials weren't even what did Jimmy in.  He got another chance and then he chose to self-sabotage in order to get fired rather than say "this place isn't for me so good-bye." Jimmy knew who D&M were.  It's why Clifford was confused that Jimmy would take a job with them knowing who they were.

Yes, and skillful managers at D&M would have realized that Jimmy could have provided real value to D&M, even if he didn't fit at D&M. They would have set him up in his own small shop, with no publicly visible attachment to the D&M brand, to bird dog potential Sandpiper claimants, and then refer them to D&M if they are good prospects. D&M gets the benefit of Jimmy's superior marketing strategy, with none of the downside of having their brand associated with it. Big litigation firms, which don't want their brand associated with aggressive t.v. advertising  do this with some frequency.

 This is what people who are good at running a business are supposed to do; maximize the value of the talent which available to the business, while minimizing the negative aspects or weaknesses that using such talent entails. The D&M partners may have been good at running a business at one time, but there isn't much reason to think they still are.

[Bannon]

41 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Correcting myself to add that Tuco respects his abuelita. 

Yeah, it's hard to seperate Tuco's inherent mental state from the meth induced psychosis. It seems possible that he at one time was capable of feeling guilty, or having a sense of shame. Hector and Don Eladio seem to be the best candidates for being classic sociopaths.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

They actually sort of lay out how Chuck ended up in Albuquerque in his obituary: After going to college and law school on the East Coast, he stayed in the area for his first clerkship, at the prestigious Delaware Court of Chancery, which handles corporate litigation in the business-friendly state. Then he moved on to the US Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit, which serves six western states, including New Mexico. Presumably he moved to Albuquerque or thereabouts because his judge was based there.

Didn't Juan Bolsa put the kibosh on that plan in last year's season finale? The whole reason Hector needed his medication during their meeting was because he was so angry over the fact that Bolsa ordered him to keep bringing in his product via Gus's trucks instead of reestablishing his own route.

Yeah, you might be right about that. There is a lot to keep track of.....

[shapeshifter]

I'm imagining the series ending with a sort of coda scene of Chuck and Jimmy conversing in a CGI'd heaven of clouds.

 

16 hours ago, ghoulina said:

After the fire, he's sitting outside on that bench....the same bench he got Chuck to sit on when he first started helping him combat his EMS

Does the same bench have a "Better Call Saul" ad on it in Breaking Bad?

 

14 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I've always figured this is how it would go. Jimmy would slowly reveal Saul to her; the frog would realize she's in the pot of boiling water and jump the fuck out.

And also Kim would realize that no matter how many times she kissed the frog, he was never going to turn into a prince.

 

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

His recruitment of Mesa Verde away from Kim, back to HHM, without disclosing how his aversion to electricity had in the past rendered him non functional, was entirely unethical. If Jimmy had been in win at all costs mode by then, he could have buried Chuck right there, without going through all the document alteration crimes.

But that would have made Jimmy look vindictive, and Jimmy seems to want to keep the nice guy veneer.

[Tsunami1981]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:09 AM, rue721 said:

I agree. And Jimmy's reaction to Howard also didn't surprise me within the scene (as harsh as it was), because Jimmy has always been hardhearted, opportunistic, and unwilling to take responsibility in that particular way. A conman like Slipping Jimmy has got to be.

Even beyond that, though, I think Jimmy was also feeling very angry and bitter toward Chuck. They really didn't part on good terms, and then Howard just sat there emphasizing that Chuck had apparently just committed suicide over a falling out with the firm of all things. I mean, in a way, that just confirms that Chuck was telling the truth when he said that he just didn't care about Jimmy that much. It was only his relationship with the firm and his place in the firm that he cared about.

Chuck and Jimmy have this operatic court battle, Chuck cuts Jimmy off at the knees when the tries to reconnect, it's all very tragic, Jimmy is still paying the price, and...that has nothing to do with Chuck's death, he actually had a relapse and committed suicide because things went poorly with the firm? Bah. I can see how Jimmy would be like, "you want to take the blame for this? Take it then!" to Howard. Chuck and Howard and the firm wanted to write Jimmy out of the story, and now they really officially have. I think that's why Jimmy stopped listening to the obituary, too. It was all about Chuck and the firm and Howard-as-a-representation-of-the-firm and everything else (including Jimmy) was very cleanly edited out. In reality, Jimmy had a big impact on Chuck's life -- just look at the insurance rate hike as evidence, if nothing else! But if Chuck and Hamlin Hamlin McGill want to shut him out...I guess Jimmy figures at this point, "go right ahead."

Yeah, I liked that twinge of...I don't know, I guess sibling rivalry or even schadenfreude from Jimmy.

I don't think they especially wanted to get rid of the actor. I think Chuck has been a sort of father figure for Jimmy within the story, and in order for Jimmy to fully remake himself as Saul Goodman they had to cut that tie. It's the same reason they always kill off the parents in coming-of-age stories, I think.

Very well said...I couldn't agree more.

On 8/7/2018 at 12:16 AM, 100Proof said:

Who remembers all these details from any show's previous seasons, lol. Rebecca? Who the heck is Rebecca?  And Jimmy squealed to the insurance company Chuck's condition?  What the heck was Cheese Nacho doing with the pills? I forget. He didn't want his father to getting coerced by the cartel or something.... lol.

This made me laugh. I'm right there with you.

I'm glad BCS is back. I didn't realize the opening scenes were a dream. (Lonesome Rhodes - thanks for pointing that out) I can't get enough of Mike & Gus. Mike's deadpan humor in the Madrigal breakroom scene had me laughing. He signs the birthday card with, "Reach for the stars!" 

The scene in the warehouse after Salamanca's stroke reminded everyone of the cold ruthlessness of the cartel.

All I could think of in the church funeral scene was "consigliere," with person after person coming to pay their respects to Jimmy.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Correcting myself to add that Tuco respects his abuelita. 

I said that too, and then it occurred to me that they say Hitler loved his dogs. ;)

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Does the same bench have a "Better Call Saul" ad on it in Breaking Bad?

Given that from what I could tell, the bench is in what seems to be an upscale residential area, I doubt it.

[Tikichick]

On 8/7/2018 at 8:17 AM, MaryPatShelby said:

Yes, and since I really like Ann Cusack when the show was over I thought "That's IT?  That's all we get of Rebecca/Ann?" 

Put me on the list of those who are less-to-not interested in the cartel business.  Though I do find Michael Mando compelling, I just can't track all the machinations of drug dealing and I'm not sure, in this particular show, that I care to.

Also, do we know for a fact that the cold open was a dream, or is it just speculation at this point?

I don't dislike the cartel storyline because I'm not interested.  I've grown to dislike the cartel storyline because it's so well done it makes me incredibly tense.  The latter days of BrBa became torture I chose to put myself through because I had to see the resolution for myself.  What I never suspected going into BCS was how endearing I would find Jimmy McGill and how desperately sad I am knowing that Saul is taking over.  Now I've got to torture myself all over again to watch the cartel storyline play out as I hope against hope that in Gene I will eventually watch Jimmy reemerge.    

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

I don't dislike the cartel storyline because I'm not interested.  I've grown to dislike the cartel storyline because it's so well done it makes me incredibly tense.  The latter days of BrBa became torture I chose to put myself through because I had to see the resolution for myself.  What I never suspected going into BCS was how endearing I would find Jimmy McGill and how desperately sad I am knowing that Saul is taking over.  Now I've got to torture myself all over again to watch the cartel storyline play out as I hope against hope that in Gene I will eventually watch Jimmy reemerge.    

Excellent explanation - and it's a major part of how I feel about the show as well. I said to my husband that this season won't be any fun as we see Jimmy devolve into Saul, knowing where that takes him. It is a constant source of amazement to me that when I heard of this spinoff I said "really? Saul?" and it's become (to me) a better series than Breaking Bad. Perhaps mostly because I actually like Jimmy and never liked Walter. So Jimmie's fall is way more painful to me, while Walter's was just interesting.

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Excellent explanation - and it's a major part of how I feel about the show as well. I said to my husband that this season won't be any fun as we see Jimmy devolve into Saul, knowing where that takes him. It is a constant source of amazement to me that when I heard of this spinoff I said "really? Saul?" and it's become (to me) a better series than Breaking Bad. Perhaps mostly because I actually like Jimmy and never liked Walter. So Jimmie's fall is way more painful to me, while Walter's was just interesting.

When the spinoff was discussed I was excited.  When it was announced I groaned, not Saul.  It was only on the grace and good will of excellent storytelling that I was at all willing to give the show a chance.

For my money not only has BCS been a better show than BrBa, it may be my favorite show of all time.  I was innately vulnerable to Walter at the start because I adore Bryan Cranston.  I still do, but I loathed Walter long before the end.  Bob Odenkirk was not very well known to me before these stories.  He's absolutely in the league of Bryan Cranston.  The fact he could make me fall in love with Jimmy when I came in with such complete distaste for Saul is astounding.  When the writers ripped the BandAid off in this episode in one clean jerk my heart broke a little.  Clearly it had a major impact on Howard and Kim as well.  

[JudyObscure]

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

 

That's what makes him interesting. I hate fiction which have sociopaths/paychopaths as central characters, because people who are incapable of empathy, and feelings of regret and guilt, are for the most part very tedious. 

I also hate fiction where the nonsensical plot is explained in the end through the villain having schizophrenia.  Not only does it contribute to the undeserved stigma of a usually non-violent group of people, but it's such bad, lazy writing.  Patients in the midst of psychotic episodes are rarely capable of the organized thinking required for elaborate crimes.

Why do we try to assign a mental illness to every unusual person?  Jimmy doesn't have a brain disease anymore than Mike has heart disease because he only loves his grand daughter.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I also hate fiction where the nonsensical plot is explained in the end through the villain having schizophrenia.  Not only does it contribute to the undeserved stigma of a usually non-violent group of people, but it's such bad, lazy writing.  Patients in the midst of psychotic episodes are rarely capable of the organized thinking required for elaborate crimes.

Why do we try to assign a mental illness to every unusual person?  Jimmy doesn't have a brain disease anymore than Mike has heart disease because he only loves his grand daughter.

Because it provides an easy explanation. The fact that it really isn't true is irrelevant.

[Atlanta]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:31 AM, Armchair Critic said:

Even with a bad arm Kim still manages to make her ponytail.

I want to know if Saul helped her with it. :D

[ShadowFacts]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

Didn't Juan Bolsa put the kibosh on that plan in last year's season finale? The whole reason Hector needed his medication during their meeting was because he was so angry over the fact that Bolsa ordered him to keep bringing in his product via Gus's trucks instead of reestablishing his own route.

Also didn't Bolsa say in this episode to leave things as they are?  I'm not sure if I am mis-remembering, and also not sure if that applies to the upholstery shop or exactly what it covers.  (No pun intended but I'll leave it.)

[wendyg]

A small point: I really love the detail that Juan Bolsa translates to "Johnny Sack".

[Bryce Lynch]

https://audioboom.com/posts/6962000-401-better-call-saul-insider

The Better Call Saul Insider Podcast for Episode 401 is now available.  

Bob Odenkirk is the guest!   Gilligan and Gould are both on it as well. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Bryce Lynch