S04.E11: The Beginning (2)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

When all hope is lost, Cole must complete his cycle so that his younger self will one day arrive at the end with the answer.

Edited July 10, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm clearing my schedule for tonight and opening a new box of kleenex because I'm pretty sure crying will happen at some point. I know it's unlikely, but fingers crossed that Cole gets some kind of happy ending! I'm thinking a tray stacked with cheeseburgers on the beach.

[Whimsy]

14 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm clearing my schedule for tonight and opening a new box of kleenex because I'm pretty sure crying will happen at some point. I know it's unlikely, but fingers crossed that Cole gets some kind of happy ending! I'm thinking a tray stacked with cheeseburgers on the beach.

I want this too!! 

[Ray Adverb]

I don't care much if Cole gets a happy ending as long as the world gets a happy ending and the plague doesn't happen.

[Chaos Theory]

Well damn this goes on my list of awesome endings.  Just when I thought Cassie was going to get a depressing ending Jones does what Jones does and breaks the laws of the universe because she ships Cassie and Cole.

If two statements encapsulate the show they would be 

Cassie “Death can be undone.  Love cannot

Cole “Happily.  Ever.  Now.”

Olivia being the creepy Skelton was a nice touch.

Plus the Deacon stuff.  Not sure if is obsession with the song came from this moment or not.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Rhetorica]

Great finale!  Fast cars,  anachronistic music,  good guys win,  relationships heal, I laughed,  I cried,  it was better than Cats! 

[bethy]

I just can’t even. As much as I was loving the montage of everyone else’s happy endings, I was getting weepy about Cole and then JONES for the win. I KNEW that Athan’s “save the one” had to be significant but couldn’t figure it out. 

I feel completely incoherent with happiness with this ending.

Edited July 7, 2018 by bethy

[Cardie]

The complete happy ending kind of defies the show's logic but after everyone's many travails, they earned it. I'm glad Ramse came back for the finale. Jennifer's success in bioengineering her unicorn was the best.

[thuganomics85]

Surprised that most everyone got a happy ending here, but I'm not disappointed.  Sometimes it is nice for the heroes to win, and considering all the losses they had, they more then earned it.

Loved the montage with how everyone fared in the new timeline, with Jennifer going on to bioengineer unicorns (Ha!  Of course she would), Ramse reuniting with his son, Deacon and Old Jennifer hanging out at a bar, and Jones getting her family back.  And while a minor moment, I liked seeing that Alder and Lasky will still become friends.

Still not sure about the logic and science behind Cole surviving besides it being Jones' last act and Jennifer claiming that "time" was just going to let it slide this time, but I'm glad he and Cassie finally (hopefully) will have a peaceful life together.

Of course, it was happy news for everyone as Olivia got all kinds of fucked up!  A brutal way to go, to say the least.

Fare well, 12 Monkeys.  I still remember thinking this was a bad idea on so many levels when it was first announced, but it went on to be a pleasant surprise, and I'm glad SyFy at least let this show actually wrap up on its own terms.  Great job on everyone's part.  Looking forward to seeing what the cast does next, but I especially hope Emily Hampshire goes on to big things, because she was an amazing casting choice here.

[Jaded Sapphire]

10 minutes ago, Cardie said:

The complete happy ending kind of defies the show's logic but after everyone's many travails, they earned it. I'm glad Ramse came back for the finale. Jennifer's success in bioengineering her unicorn was the best.

Totally agree! My only question right now is which Deacon showed up at the end? Did Jennifer grab Deacon before he shows up to take the facility in season 1? I mean that would be one helluva an acting job if he was pretending from minute one.

[Evie]

That was not what I was expecting but everything I could have asked for from a series finale.

I  loved our heroes kicking ass to "Time of My Life" and "Don't You."

Yay for Jones (and Athan). I have to think on the ending some, but time did owe them one.  Athan did say "in another life" to Cole; I'm thinking Cole and Cassie will have their son

Jennifer really was the best. Love that she bioengineered a unicorn.

Much more to say tomorrow, probably after a rewatch.

[cynic]

Sob! That was so good! There were a few issues here or there, but none that I can even begin to care about at this moment. I hate that this show is over, but I love that they were able to wrap everything up and go out so well. 

Now, can someone please splinter me back four years so I can experience this wonderful show all over again?

[justmehere]

13 hours ago, Jaded Sapphire said:

My only question right now is which Deacon showed up at the end? Did Jennifer grab Deacon before he shows up to take the facility in season 1? I mean that would be one helluva an acting job if he was pretending from minute one.

TVLine: You brought Deacon into the fold at a much earlier point in his timeline. So the Deacon that we first met when the show began knew about time travel, and Cassie and Cole, and the whole shebang?

Terry Matalas: We saw a first run of Deacon where he didn’t know. Then in Episode 407, when he’s in Titan, and he sees the West VII symbol, and he gets the idea of the West VII coming for a last battle at Titan, he has a bloody nose. At that moment, he becomes the Deacon who has lived through this cycle. And the same with Old Jennifer. You see Old Jennifer get a bloody nose in 407, too. Now she knows what she has to do. So in 408, when he gets his head cut off, a few scenes earlier, he says to Cole, “Things are coming to a head,” basically broadcasting that he knew what his fate was going to be and that this Deacon knows the end of the series.

---------

I loved it. Loved all the happy endings. It felt earned and satisfying. I figured they'd save the world but had no idea how everyone would end up -- whether Cole would survive, whether there would be any connection between the core group, memories, etc. Very happy with the finale.

--Loved seeing James Callis again and so glad it appears Athan will yet be born. Appearing to Jones (his great grandmother!), setting up the end, was a great scene. He did so much with limited time.

-- When Cassie was watching the destruction of time and not doing anything to stop it, I shouted: "The Ring is Mine!" Then, to have multiple codas, felt like another shout out to Return of the King. Or maybe it was just me. I was a little disappointed that Jennifer was just knocked out during that whole sequence. ETA: Another shout out: James to Jones: "I'm glad you're here with me at the end [of all things].

--Seeing Cole smile... that didn't happen often. Very nice. Liked what Matalas had to say in the link above about what would happen after what we saw.

Here's a very nice write-up: https://www.indiewire.com/2018/07/12-monkeys-finale-syfy-spoilers-1201981808/

Edited July 7, 2018 by justmehere

[Jaded Sapphire]

Thanks much justmehere, both articles are a great read. The ending I choose is Terry's by the way but I can see how it might not be the same for everyone else.

[Ray Adverb]

I'm glad that in the end they were able to stop the plague and create a bright future for everyone.  Leaving Cole alive felt like a cheat though.  By now, he was born of events that never happened.  He essentially has no parents because Hannah never met his dad.

 

I was expecting a lot of padding, sort of like the final season of Sons of Anarchy.  I was glad that this was actually very well paced.  I love Project Splinter's invasion of Titan.  It reminds me of a tactic I use sometimes in Starcraft, where I try to take over an enemy's base from within by mind controlling a couple builder units.  It's always risky and bloody, but it's pretty cool when I pull it off.

 

I really loved that Olivia eventually became the charred skeletal precursor to the plague that we saw way back in season 1.

 

Does this mean that Deacon, and The Sisters, were expecting to join Project Splinter the whole time?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, Jennifer finally got a gun and then Olivia knocked her out before she could use it.

The practical side of me was yelling at Cassie to punch less and stab more. I'm sure it felt good for her to punch Olivia after everything that had happened, but NEVER leave your enemy alive - especially one who would gladly kill you. I knew that Olivia would get up and come after her again.

I wish they hadn't shown the exact same flashbacks of Cole and Cassie in this hour as they did in the one before.

Loved Cassie giving Deacon one last hug.

And yay for Cole and Ramse being able to reconcile.

I found it incredibly sad that Cole was all alone and had to splinter himself out of existence, but then I realized that at least this way, he didn't have to leave Katarina to die alone.

When it was clear that the timeline had reset and things had changed, I was sad but not surprised that almost everyone (Jones, Hannah, Ramse/Sam, Jennifer, and Deacon) seemed to get a happy ending out of it except Cassie who knew that something was off but couldn't figure out the cause of her melancholy. That seemed to fit with the overall mood of the show over the past four seasons so I was just glad to see that Cole's sacrifice DID make a huge difference to the world. But when we got that very last bit in the final two scenes so that we knew Jones had fiddled with the code so that he would survive and then he found Cassie, I may have cried while squeeing like a tween.

I'm so glad that they found a good way to bring back Cole's "Where are you right now?" and These Arms of Mine for the series finale. I would have been disappointed if either of those things hadn't been included.

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe it felt a bit like a cheat but time owed Cole and Cassie so I am glad they got their happy ending.  Plus I buy the way it happened.  Athan puts the idea in Jones head to save a single version of Cole and because Jones is Jones she saves the last version of him.  Why the hell not?

i also like that Cassie almost didn’t save the world.  You forget how much doing the right thing would cost her and letting “her” version of a red forest happen would give her everything she wants.  Cole, her son, Maybe even her life back.  This all started by destroying her life.  Still though Cole convinced her to do the right thing In The end.

Early Deacon might not make complete sense but I like that it does explain his obsession with “Don’t you forget about me”.  

 

This show could have been a complete mess.  Instead it turned into a truly human and beautiful show.  Like most shows of this nature I am sad more people didn’t watch it.  It was awesome.  

Edited July 7, 2018 by Chaos Theory
Typos typos typos

[Bort]

This is definitely one of my favorite shows of all time. I love shows that can play a long game and give a satisfying ending.

Speaking of satisfying ending: Olivia's gruesome, splintery death. I'm glad Cassie got to be the one to do it, she earned that kill. The blood squirting out of Olivia's bottom half was disgusting, but awesome. And she's the Night Room corpse! Also a bit of a loose end, as they managed to undo the plague, but her frozen upper torso is still out there somewhere. Hopefully, someone had the sense to torch it.

[Evie]

It's amazing how often I go "Of course" at the reveals even though I had never considered the answer before. Of course Olivia was the corpse.  At the beginning and the end "I was a thing in a box." 

Finally, we got to hear Cassie's complete message. 

So many great lines. Cole to Cassie “You and me, we didn’t get a lot of time but we lived a lifetime together" and Cole to Jones “I had two mothers. I’m glad that you’re here with me at the end." 

The "Where are you right now" voiceover at the end was perfect. 

I didn't even think about the red leaf at the end or what it could mean other than it being autumn, but I choose Terry Matalas' ending. 

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, Evie said:

It's amazing how often I go "Of course" at the reveals even though I had never considered the answer before. Of course Olivia was the corpse.  At the beginning and the end "I was a thing in a box." 

Finally, we got to hear Cassie's complete message. 

So many great lines. Cole to Cassie “You and me, we didn’t get a lot of time but we lived a lifetime together" and Cole to Jones “I had two mothers. I’m glad that you’re here with me at the end." 

The "Where are you right now" voiceover at the end was perfect. 

I didn't even think about the red leaf at the end or what it could mean other than it being autumn, but I choose Terry Matalas' ending. 

I agree. When the skeleton was first introduced I was convinced it was Cole somehow. Obviously, once it was determined he had to erase himself it was apparent he was not the source. Olivia was always my second choice. 

I didn’t think of the red leaf meaning they were in the red forest either, just a reminder of what could’ve gone wrong. I also choose Terry Matalas’ ending. 

In the part 1 thread I mentioned I had to watch the finale twice before I could really formulate thoughts. Here are my thoughts now that I wasn’t crying and/or holding out serious hope for a happy ending. 

• Cassie is such a badass I’m really going to miss her on my screen 
• I actually, really thought during my first viewing that everyone was going to die when they were all overpowered in the beginning. I knew it was just the beginning of part two, but you just never know with these shows! I think I fistpumped when Max and old Jennifer showed up. 
• I always liked Deacon. He has my brand of sarcasm. So, I was so giddy happy when he showed up and mowed all the bad guys down. Loved when the Titan baddie tried to get up and Deacon non-chalantly blasted him without even looking at him 
• I know there’s been some discussion about if Deacon loved the song “Don’t You Forget About Me” because of that moment, or if he’d always loved it (chicken or the egg type thing). He was singing the song long before the nose bleed that signaled when these events changed for him (and him getting these memories), so he obviously loved this song first. 
• Love young Jennifer calling old Jennifer “chicken”
• jennifer’s radio announcer lol. “This one goes out to Tired in Titan... with a face for radio and a voice for NPR” lolololol
• In other, lesser, shows when Cole was calling Cassie on the radio during her fight with Olivia one of two things would’ve happened. Olivia would’ve paused to pick up the radio to let Cole know she had Cassie and gloat or Cole would’ve immediately run to check on her. I’m glad neither of these things happened. Olivia would’ve lost the upper hand if she’d have stopped and she was too smart for that and Cole knew he had to stay on mission. Although, another nitpick along with the car radio from part 1- there’s no way they would’ve heard the gunshots over the radio. No one was holding the handset button down. 
• I also was frustrated that Cassie didn’t keep stabbing Olivia, but I thought maybe the knife was stuck in bone. It happens. I watch ID and Dateline. I know these things. 
• I also wish they’d used different flashback scenes of Cassie and Cole. They had a lot of moments. They could’ve used different ones. 
• Olivia being ripped in half was so gross! I loved it!!
• I’m still really confused about the purpose of the red forest. Is it just the same moment/day over and over and over for infinity?  Is it a whole life of your choosing starting from the moment you want?  I don’t fully get it. Because, if it’s the latter, it doesn’t really sound that bad?  I wish this would’ve been fleshed out more and showing the really bad thing about it because if literally everyone can choose their own happy life I don’t get what’s bad.  I get that’s it not real, but if it had shown that it only SEEMED like paradise with really scary stuff coming, I would’ve understood it more. 
• As usual, the countdown was not accurate. There’s no way Cole ran that whole way and gave that speech in the little bit of time left. This is the only real issue I had with this episode because it is such a trope and this show avoided tropes the whole time. 
• I thought the Cassie/Deacon hug was funny because he didn’t know her yet. “I’ve still got it” haha
• Did we see Cassie’s whole hand in the CDC when they found her body at any point?  I was wondering if she had the ring on. 
• Cole and Cassie’s goodbye. Ugly crying. I loved it. “Death can be undone, love cannot”
• i had a feeling upon first viewing that Jones had done something to save Cole. That’s why it was really hard for me to focus and digest the last 15 minutes or so because I was just waiting for that reveal. When Cole had told Cassie after the poison scare that he had seen Key West and it wasn’t just a dying illusion because it felt different, I knew that he was going to end there somehow. 

• I think I cried the most during my first viewing when Cole had to splinter out of existence, or so he thought, completely alone.  How lonely he must’ve felt.  He deserved so much more than that for saving the world!

•  I liked how, when Cassie’s timeline met up with when Cole was originally in the car, everything came back to her. She had a feeling of something being off the whole day until that moment and then Whoosh!  I don’t know why she didn’t ask for Harris Harrison in the hotel though, lol. I know that name wouldn’t have been there either, but it would’ve been nice for that last call-back. 

• Jennifer bioengineering a unicorn and the tv screen on the news report showing “scientific community asks: ‘why?’” hahaha
• I loved that Cassie bought their house 
• i thought it funny when Cole was squinting up at the sun and Jennifer’s like “well, it ain’t heaven. Just the keys” lol. Having been to the Keys, and loving it, I want to know where?  The Keys is too broad. It’s like people from out of New England just calling all of the Cape “Cape Cod” as if there’s not lots of different towns. 
• “You were never crazy. You were the best of all of us” *sob* again 
• I’ve watched the very end about five times now. I love it 
• I’m ok with time owing Cole one. I wanted him to survive so badly! So, I’m thoroughly satisfied with this ending. I was so afraid that everyone, but Cole was going to survive!
• Even on 2nd viewing, I got goose bumps during the “where are you now” speech. 
• I was surprised that there was a question (in the article posted) if Jones remembered Cole and some thinking Cassie didn’t remember, just had feelings she didn’t understand. It had been established in-show that the serum that Katarina injected in them caused them to keep their memories despite time changing. This was even proven to be true with everything changing in the lab and Katarina keeping the old memories but not having the memories of the new timeline. So, Jones, Cassie, Ramse and Deacon would all remember. Jennifer, too, but I think her primary status would’ve caused her to remember anyway. 
• I loved this and I’ll end this with “Happily ever now”

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Evie said:

It's amazing how often I go "Of course" at the reveals even though I had never considered the answer before. Of course Olivia was the corpse.  At the beginning and the end "I was a thing in a box." 

And the whole deal with how Jones couldn’t get anybody to splinter properly because it was originally engineered with her own DNA and it wasn’t until a subject who shared it came along that she was able to get it to work and eventually use it on other people besides Cole. 

Its just so amazing how even all the little things make sense. 

[cynic]

10 hours ago, justmehere said:

TVLine: You brought Deacon into the fold at a much earlier point in his timeline. So the Deacon that we first met when the show began knew about time travel, and Cassie and Cole, and the whole shebang?

Terry Matalas: We saw a first run of Deacon where he didn’t know. Then in Episode 407, when he’s in Titan, and he sees the West VII symbol, and he gets the idea of the West VII coming for a last battle at Titan, he has a bloody nose. At that moment, he becomes the Deacon who has lived through this cycle. And the same with Old Jennifer. You see Old Jennifer get a bloody nose in 407, too. Now she knows what she has to do. So in 408, when he gets his head cut off, a few scenes earlier, he says to Cole, “Things are coming to a head,” basically broadcasting that he knew what his fate was going to be and that this Deacon knows the end of the series.

---------

 

Thank you for posting this interview. It didn't occur to me that there was another way to interpret the ending and now I love it all even more for that extra depth. While I love Cole and Cassie's happily ever now, I tend to favor darker or more ambiguous endings and being able to read it both ways is awesome. 

I'm still confused by Deacon's timeline. I get that his past changed after 407 and he was acting and all that. That's fine. What I don't understand is Deacon not knowing Cole and Ramse in 2043. They met and escaped the West VII years before that, didn't they?

[Chaos Theory]

The dark and bitter part of me likes the idea that Cassie was always the Witness.  I think the story (If you like that ending) works.  The story has always been as much about Cassie as it has been about Cole.  And having her NOT do the right thing in the and because well...everyone unexpectedly gets their exact personal happy ending and Cassie is someone who would do that.  

That being said.....

I do prefer the happy ending.  I just think it works better.  The final red leaf signifying time finally moving on.  Moving past.  Time just moving.....

Edited July 8, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Whimsy]

35 minutes ago, cynic said:

 

I'm still confused by Deacon's timeline. I get that his past changed after 407 and he was acting and all that. That's fine. What I don't understand is Deacon not knowing Cole and Ramse in 2043. They met and escaped the West VII years before that, didn't they?

I thought that at first, too, but when I rewatched that scene I really listened to the dialogue. He definitely knew who they were, but he was still pissed at them for leaving West VII. When they reminded Deacon that they were West VII and always would be, Deacon decided to help them. 

[jmonique]

So many thoughts about the episodes that I'm still processing, but one of my favorite things is how Cassie just goes APE on Olivia. When she's finally given the chance, she unleashes all those years' worth of pain and torment on her and just beats the hell out of a woman who was created to be indestructible. Deacon was one helluva self-defense teacher.

[tiredofwork]

I was a casual watcher of the series.  I watched but things just got way, way too confusing for me and too many characters ended up coming in, too many "okie doke" plots... But I persisted and watched..   Can't say I liked or disliked the ending because I was too lost on all relationships and nuances.  This is a series you had to study and keep notes on.

But of the past show montage's, I liked seeing the one scene that has always stood out to me as the best, most touching of the series and that is the one when Cole and Cassie attended a formal event or ball, she had a red dress and he was in formal tuxedo.  A caterer came by with platter of Chicken Satay and Cole grabbed like 5 skewers and was walking around with them... Then  he and Cassie had a dance.   It stood out because Cole had basically only knew struggle and hardship and it was good for him to have a good night. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by tiredofwork

[FurryFury]

Wow. An awesome finale. One of the best I've ever seen. I was crying a lot, but I loved everything. It just felt right, and isn't this the most important thing about the finale? So few shows manage to achieve it.

I did have some problems with the show in seasons 2 and 3, but the last season redeemed it for me. Great work, writers and the cast. Hope to see everybody in other stuff!

 

22 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

But of the past show montage's, I liked seeing the one scene that has always stood out to me as the best, most touching of the series and that is the one when Cole and Cassie attended a formal event or ball, she had a red dress and he was in formal tuxedo.  A caterer came by with platter of Chicken Satay and Cole grabbed like 5 skewers and was walking around with them... Then  he and Cassie had a dance.   It stood out because Cole had basically only new struggle and hardship and it was good for him to have a good night. 

Loved that scene as well!

[cynic]

Me too! I love the little smile Cassie does when she sees Cole's tandoori skewer bouquet. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by cynic
Sees and says are not the same word

[Hanahope]

That was an awesome ending.  Nail biter to the end.  

Love that everyone got a happy ending, and I think the red leaf is just autumn.  

One  of these years, I want to rewatch this show, and try to catch all the pieces.

[Cardie]

8 hours ago, Evie said:

Finally, we got to hear Cassie's complete message. 

Yes, and one wonders what would have happened had they heard the whole thing when first encountering it.

[CrystalMoon]

I loved this finale. I was thinking about what I could criticize about it and I couldn't come up with anything. But a couple of people here mentioned that they wished the Cole/Cassie memories had been different, and I totally agree. In fact, I remember being annoyed about that at the time. There are a million clips they could've used, and they didn't have to all be romantic. It could be Cole and Cassie fighting together or on a mission together. Just something different.

Everyone's lists of their favorite things are all great, and I'm not ready to make my own list just now. Mostly, I was so glad I wasn't spoiled or spent a lot of time trying to figure everything out. I loved all the twists. I was pretty sure Deacon would come back and the knife would be important, but I never guessed it would be a Deacon before Cole and Ramse. Never saw them bringing Ramse back. Or Max! Max! Athan was a great suprise too, and I loved that he as a primary was the one who suggested that Katarina could save Cole. It made me wonder if that might have been the plan all along and that all primaries knew he'd survive or could survive if Jones decided to save him. Somehow Jennifer knew to wait for him in the Keys. Could it be she had an inkling all along? I don't know. But I'm intrigued.

The good-byes were heart-wrenching, one after another after another, and kudos to Aaron Stanford to going through each good-bye in such a compelling way. I really felt for all of them, but especially him.

I was fairly sure we'd see a montage of everyone after the timeline was fixed, but I never in my wildest dreams thought Cole would live. I usually like more bittersweet endings, but I really think this happy ending was earned. James Cole gave up a good chunk of his life to save humanity, and to find out he was deamon was unfair beyond measure. So for time to decide it's okay for Cole to live, makes sense to me. He's still not part of the timeline, at least until the moment he shows up on the beach, so he didn't get everything back. But he got what he most wanted. It was a great twist and a very satisfying ending.

ETA: About the red leaf at the end. To me, the ending is very clear. The red forest is gone, the timeline is restored. That close-up of the leaf just told me that, now, a red leaf is just a leaf and a sign of autumn. It not a sign that the red forest is back. Quite the opposite. It's a sign the red forest is gone.

Edited July 8, 2018 by CrystalMoon

[Bort]

It never even crossed my mind to think that Cassie was the ultimate Witness, never shut off Titan, let the world end and they're all in the Red Forest. I guess I don't have a dark soul, but I love that this is a possible interpretation.

[Cthulhudrew]

The Dirty Dancing theme was epic; the Breakfast Club theme seemed so wondrously meta (and perfectly fitting Ms. Goines, both for the fourth-wall breaking nod and her resemblance to Ally Sheedy). So much good in this episode; it was a great ending to a largely great series. I felt the middle seasons had some issues, but the bookending first and final seasons were stellar the whole way through.

I suppose if Cole can be salvaged from his retroactive continuity splintering, then it makes sense that Future Jennifer can be sitting at Deacon's bar in 2013. I'm mostly just happy that Cole and Cassie got their happy ending after all. 

The "I've got a plan" scene between the two of them is probably my most favorite moment. Amanda Schull's performance there is so touching and pure.

I'll miss this show, but I'm glad it got the time it needed to bring it all together.

EDIT: Here's a theory I just had that might blow some minds- when Jennifer refers to "time owing Cole one," what if the blinking eye we see actually belongs to Tommy Westphall? 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

Y'know, as I continue to reflect on all of this, it occurs to me that the only one that doesn't seem to get a happy ending (of the heroes) is Cole's father. He doesn't meet Hannah, he doesn't raise Cole. He probably remembers it all, but he ends up alone.

I mean, I guess I can imagine that he might have ended up meeting someone and having a different family, and now has these wistful memories of a lost love and a child (and he doesn't get killed), but it seems like he kind of loses out. :'(

[Notwisconsin]

5 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Y'know, as I continue to reflect on all of this, it occurs to me that the only one that doesn't seem to get a happy ending (of the heroes) is Cole's father. He doesn't meet Hannah, he doesn't raise Cole. He probably remembers it all, but he ends up alone.

I mean, I guess I can imagine that he might have ended up meeting someone and having a different family, and now has these wistful memories of a lost love and a child (and he doesn't get killed), but it seems like he kind of loses out. :'(

...and then there was Cassie's husband. I know about the twoo wuv thing with Cole, but I remember somewhere in the first or second season, when they thought that the plague was over, they were planning going around the world or something cool like that, showing absolute joy in each other. She was married when Cole first met up with her, right?

[coppersin]

FUCK YES, AND THANK YOU TERRY MATALAS. Normally I go for the darker endings but wow did that hit all the right spots!

This show is gonna be awesome as a binge rewatch.

 

23 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

...and then there was Cassie's husband. I know about the twoo wuv thing with Cole, but I remember somewhere in the first or second season, when they thought that the plague was over, they were planning going around the world or something cool like that, showing absolute joy in each other. She was married when Cole first met up with her, right?

I don't think they were married. They were getting there - I think engaged or he was planning to propose before Cole popped up the first time and Cassie's life kinda fell apart? - but not married.

[Notwisconsin]

They were living together in a long-term, loving relationship, but then in the rerun, he's nowhere to be seen. I'm just saying that it bugged me is all.

[CrystalMoon]

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Y'know, as I continue to reflect on all of this, it occurs to me that the only one that doesn't seem to get a happy ending (of the heroes) is Cole's father. He doesn't meet Hannah, he doesn't raise Cole. He probably remembers it all, but he ends up alone.

I mean, I guess I can imagine that he might have ended up meeting someone and having a different family, and now has these wistful memories of a lost love and a child (and he doesn't get killed), but it seems like he kind of loses out. :'(

He wouldn't remember anything. The only ones who remember are those who were injected with splinter serum, and he never was. So I wouldn't assume he has a bad life. Without the apocolypse and death by the Tall Man, maybe he meets someone else and has a big family and is a successful mechanic.

 

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

...and then there was Cassie's husband. I know about the twoo wuv thing with Cole, but I remember somewhere in the first or second season, when they thought that the plague was over, they were planning going around the world or something cool like that, showing absolute joy in each other. She was married when Cole first met up with her, right?

No, but they may have been engaged. I assume Cassie broke up with him as her memories of Cole emerged.

And you know what else occurred to me, we were seeing everyone in different timelines in the epilogue. Cassie was in 2013, but Ramse and his son were probably in 2043 because he would've been a young boy in 2013. Same with the other post-apocolyptic future, we were seeing Jones, Deacon, etc all from 2043 or they would've been a lot younger, and obviously Hannah would've been  just a bump. It kind of quashes my dream of them all getting together for a reunion. 

[Bort]

17 hours ago, jmonique said:

So many thoughts about the episodes that I'm still processing, but one of my favorite things is how Cassie just goes APE on Olivia. When she's finally given the chance, she unleashes all those years' worth of pain and torment on her and just beats the hell out of a woman who was created to be indestructible. Deacon was one helluva self-defense teacher.

Also still reflecting, but I would like to give Alisen Down some props on Olivia. She had enough pathos to make her seem like a real person, instead of the cardboard mustache-twirling villain that she could've easily been, but was still plenty despicable. She was a villain I loved to hate.

[Richness]

I laughed. I cheered. I cried big, unmanly tears. While the final episode might not have been the time-traveling masterpiece the other episodes this season has been, it was a damn satisfying. Thanks 12 Monkeys!

[Chaos Theory]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Also still reflecting, but I would like to give Alisen Down some props on Olivia. She had enough pathos to make her seem like a real person, instead of the cardboard mustache-twirling villain that she could've easily been, but was still plenty despicable. She was a villain I loved to hate.

What made the show so interesting is that all the characters from white knight hero to dark hat villain had a believable and understandable history.   You may not have liked Ramse’s reasons for turning on Cole but they were understandable and so was both Jones and Cassie’s deep well of anger and grief.  The show was as much about each character’s pathos  as it was about time travel and why each character made the choices they did.  Olivia ultimately was a lonely angry child who created the red forest so she wouldn’t be alone and yet she never saw the people like her own daughter reach out for and to her which ultimately left her alone.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[dargosmydaddy]

Wow. Now that's how you do a finale.

Obviously there's a lot of luck involved with TV. There have been many great/ potentially great shows that died prematurely and never got to orchestrate their series finale due to sudden cancellation. Conversely, if a show becomes a big hit, it often stays on well past its expiration date, becoming a shadow of its former self. So 12 Monkeys lucked out in that it got a decent run, and knew when it was ending.

That said, not every show runner can plan ahead and put together a wonderful overall story. So big time kudos to Terry Matalas for being a hell of a story teller.

On 7/7/2018 at 6:22 AM, Jaded Sapphire said:

The ending I choose is Terry's by the way but I can see how it might not be the same for everyone else.

It reminded me a little of the series finale of the UK version of Being Human, though an extra on the Being Human DVD made it clear that the good guys did not actually win. Glad this one was more subtle, and I'm definitely going with Matala's interpretation, too!

4 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

They were living together in a long-term, loving relationship, but then in the rerun, he's nowhere to be seen. I'm just saying that it bugged me is all.

Matala's Twitter says they filmed a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron, but then had to cut it for time. 

[Bort]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Matala's Twitter says they filmed a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron, but then had to cut it for time. 

I had pretty much assumed that Cassie promptly broke up with Aaron, but I’m glad they thought to do a scene! I’m sure it’ll end up as a deleted scene bonus content somewhere and end up on YouTube. 

[Zoe]

7 hours ago, CrystalMoon said:

And you know what else occurred to me, we were seeing everyone in different timelines in the epilogue. Cassie was in 2013, but Ramse and his son were probably in 2043 because he would've been a young boy in 2013. Same with the other post-apocolyptic future, we were seeing Jones, Deacon, etc all from 2043 or they would've been a lot younger, and obviously Hannah would've been  just a bump. It kind of quashes my dream of them all getting together for a reunion. 

It's easy enough for everyone except for Ramse and Deacon. Cassie and Cole are the same age as the Jones's, and they could still be figures in the other two's lives since they came from broken families, especially with Deacon since we see Jennifer in his bar.

[Netfoot]

A fabulous finish to a fabulous show.  I couldn't have asked for more or better.  Glad Cole was able to have his own happy ending -- it would have been a bitter pill, otherwise.  

I am sorry I won't see these characters again.  But "Everyting fuh a time" as my old mum used to say.  The series was exciting and interesting from Day One, and I'm glad it had a strong ending, rather than it fizzling out because they pushed it a season too far.  Westworld peeps:  This is how you do multiple timelines without becoming a crap show!

Anybody got Amanda Schull's number?  I want to call her up and ask her to be my girlfriend.

[Cardie]

19 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Cardie
Never mind.

[wanderingnettle]

11 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Matala's Twitter says they filmed a scene where Cassie breaks up with Aaron, but then had to cut it for time. 

That was actually a joke, and he's deleted the tweet where he said it since. He said they filmed it, but had to cut it as it ran for 27 minutes...

Edited July 9, 2018 by wanderingnettle

[wanderingnettle]

22 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Y'know, as I continue to reflect on all of this, it occurs to me that the only one that doesn't seem to get a happy ending (of the heroes) is Cole's father. He doesn't meet Hannah, he doesn't raise Cole. He probably remembers it all, but he ends up alone.

Maybe Cole will meet up with him and they'll become mates. They will be almost the same age now. I don't think Matthew will remember anything though. He didn't time travel, didn't have the splinter injections.

[CrystalMoon]

8 hours ago, wanderingnettle said:

That was actually a joke, and he's deleted the tweet where he said it since. He said they filmed it, but had to cut it as it ran for 27 minutes...

 

27 minutes! Ha ha! Can you imagine a 27-minute break-up scene? LOL

8 hours ago, wanderingnettle said:

Maybe Cole will meet up with him and they'll become mates. They will be almost the same age now. I don't think Matthew will remember anything though. He didn't time travel, didn't have the splinter injections.

That could happen. And also, Cassie and Cole could have baby Athan again, and this time, he could grow up and be friends with Ramse and Deacon in the future because they'd be about the same age.

Edited July 9, 2018 by CrystalMoon

[wanderingnettle]

27 minutes ago, CrystalMoon said:

And also, Cassie and Cole could have baby Athan again, and this time, he could grow up and be friends with Ramse and Deacon in the future because they'd be about the same age.

He wouldn't be the same though, because he wouldn't have the cool accent.