The Blotter Presents

[John Potts]

If you don't mind covering British crime, there are documentaries on Harold Shipman and Fred & Rose West available online (there are almost certainly other documentaries about them, they both have high body counts). Both stories are pretty grim, even by the standards of the genre.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Thanks, guys! Keep 'em coming. (Not sure how "Christine" ties in with crime, though?)

[Primetimer]

Kim Reed joins Sarah D. Bunting to discuss Cos, podcasts, and a Southern Tier case that hits very close to home.

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[FormerMod-a1]

Lol, true, I just included it since it's been discussed a lot in True Crime FB groups I'm in and/or help moderate.  That is why I put it at the bottom of my list, though. 

[messyone15]

Kim's connection to this is FASCINATING! I got very excited at the end when she said she had more true crime insider stuff.

[swimmyfish]

I should preface this by saying that I am also a white lady, but regarding the discussion of the belief Bill Cosby is being treated unfairly, I think some of that might come from him being held accountable for actions that some high profile white men are currently being forgiven for. For example, Johnny Depp is still referred to as "Oscar Nominee" in the recent preview for Murder on the Orient Express, even though less than a year ago Amber Heard was on the cover of People covered in bruises; people still line up to work with Woody Allen; and 14 women came forward last summer with allegations of sexual assault against a former reality show host, yet he was still elected president. I personally think that Cosby is guilty, and I don't think there's any excuse for the crimes of which that he is accused. But, while I don't think it's wrong at all that he's being prosecuted for them, I do wonder from time to time if the reason the case against him finally gained so much traction is because he's a person of color.

On an entirely different note, I would love a recurring feature of crimes Kim is personally connected to. 

[SnideAsides]

Not quite sure whether a dramatic TV series based on true crime (closely enough that it was once banned in one Australian state to prevent tainting a jury) would count, but: Underbelly would be a ripe source for material if it did.

[veronicamers]

Okay, I need to know about Kim's prom date tout suite. I always conflate the Rabbi Fred Neulander case and the Dr. Robert Neulander case. So this was helpful as I literally had mixed up the details into one mishmash of a crime.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Yeah, it counts, depending -- thanks for the suggestion!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I will totally have Kim back to explore her Jessica Fletchery connection to various crimes! And also because she's hilarious.

 

@swimmy, you're onto something there -- and I wonder too if it's related to his speaking tour in which he lectured African-Americans on how to behave. I don't know how, exactly, it would be related and I don't think it's as simple as a backlash against his hypocrisy.

[FormerMod-a1]

The Notorious web series with Laura Pettler. (I tweeted you about it, too).

http://www.timesonline.com/notoriouswebseries

[ACS]

I should preface this by saying that I am also a white lady, but regarding the discussion of the belief Bill Cosby is being treated unfairly, I think some of that might come from him being held accountable for actions that some high profile white men are currently being forgiven for. For example, Johnny Depp is still referred to as "Oscar Nominee" in the recent preview for Murder on the Orient Express, even though less than a year ago Amber Heard was on the cover of People covered in bruises; people still line up to work with Woody Allen; and 14 women came forward last summer with allegations of sexual assault against a former reality show host, yet he was still elected president. I personally think that Cosby is guilty, and I don't think there's any excuse for the crimes of which that he is accused. But, while I don't think it's wrong at all that he's being prosecuted for them, I do wonder from time to time if the reason the case against him finally gained so much traction is because he's a person of color.

On an entirely different note, I would love a recurring feature of crimes Kim is personally connected to. 

I am, in fact, a black lady and this is what I came here to say. He did some dirty and he is a bad person. But I bristle at the ratio of references to Cosby's misdeeds versus Polanski or Woody Allen, both of whom continue to get work. People go after Cosby in pop culture more and with more certainty. And it makes me feel some kind of way that he seems like an easier target.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quick note: the Unraveled podcast is still continuing as the trial goes on, and it's pretty great. And in Ep 6, they do talk about the social-media response to Cosby himself and the case in general, and the proportions of support vs. assuming he's guilty. Interesting stuff in light of what we're talking about here.

[Primetimer]

Alex Collins joins Sarah D. Bunting for a riot grrrrl, Bill Kurtis, and two VERY unhappy families.

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[txhorns79]

Quote

I am, in fact, a black lady and this is what I came here to say. He did some dirty and he is a bad person. But I bristle at the ratio of references to Cosby's misdeeds versus Polanski or Woody Allen, both of whom continue to get work. People go after Cosby in pop culture more and with more certainty. And it makes me feel some kind of way that he seems like an easier target.

I think at least with Allen, the issues between what really happened with he and his daughter have never really been settled.  There also wasn't a line of women coming out of the woodwork when the issues between he and his daughter were revisited to show a pattern of behavior.  The issues with the daughter also came in the middle of an extremely nasty break up between Mia and Woody, which gives it a context and framing that isn't there with Cosby. 

 

With Cosby there are so many women, with such similar stories, that even if you discount the women who are coming forward 30, 40 or 50 years later as unreliable, there are still women left over with similar claims.  He is an "easier" target, so to speak, because his actions covered such a large number of people, and at some point, all the voices are overwhelming.     

 

As to the Neulander matter, I saw the 48 Hours, and I was in agreement that I thought there was at least enough for reasonable doubt.  It's very hard to tell what actually happened.

[TeeVee329]

The voice of the actress playing the Menendez brothers' lawyer sounded so familiar and I finally realized - and confirmed via IMDb - that it's Meredith Scott Lynn of "Legally Blonde".  Also, while I did also watch "The Following" in those early days, Nico Tortotella is always remembered by me as one of the new kids in "Scream 4".

Really liked Alex's insights here and on EHG a few weeks ago, hope we hear more from her soon!

[MCMLXXVII]

Was the opening clip in honor of Duran Duran playing Princeton Reunions this year? Heh. I made a day trip for the P-rade, APBA reception, and dropped by Campüs Club, but didn't stay for the tents.

I'll have to check the Campüs bar next time I'm there. Never noticed his name or heard this lore as a student. 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

HA, no, I didn't even know that was happening. It was just such a capital-L Line, and the movie seemed to be saying right from Jump Street that José deserved what happened to him...including that cheesy comment.

I think Püs management had the bar refinished around the time the building went back to the university, but I haven't been inside in years and can't say. (And we can continue this conversation in DM if you want because noooooo one else cares, hee.)

[FormerMod-a1]

Kids Who Kill, an A&E special airing June 19.

[Pogojoco]

I finally got around to watching this- yeah, the cousin is great, as are the Bayou accents.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

yiiiiikes. We are booked for the 6/21 episode but I'll give it a look!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

For those of you wanting to watch ahead/along with Ep 13:

 

Jonestown: The Life And Death Of Peoples Temple 

 

 

Guyana Tragedy: The Story Of Jim Jones, starring Powers Boothe, Brad Dourif, Veronica Cartwright, and Ned Beatty as Congressman Ryan.

 

[jenrising]

Can we just take a moment with this poster for that Jonestown movie?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Oh my hell, I didn't even see that. James Earl Jones is seriously in it for three minutes, too. 

 

And this is such a dumb thing, but: those aren't the cups they actually use in The Scene, but does anyone else who was a kid in the late '70s/early '80s remember that seriously every household had those acrylic ridgey cups in every size? Usually green, like those?

[veronicamers]

Another great episode. I thought I was kinda done with the Menendez bros but I will have to watch this movie.

So my personal connection to this case...I know through professional circles one of Lyle's Princeton buddies/partners in the wings place Sarah mentioned. He was in the car with him when he was arrested. This guy made an unsuccessful run for Congress a few years ago: http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/north-carolina-hayden-rogers-had-menendez-brother-for-college-suitemate

[Primetimer]

Eve Batey returns to discuss the American Experience AND the Powers-Boothe-miniseries takes on the tragedy in Guyana.

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[Stowaway]

Great discussion, as always!

Just to weigh in on an early part of the conversation. . . I do think the Zodiac killer looms larger in the San Francisco collective consciousness, at least if you're our age. Growing up (in Sonoma county, about 40 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge) we had a guy in our town who everyone said was the FBI's number one suspect for the Zodiac murders. When I went to college, I discovered that pretty much anyone who grew up in one of the nine Bay Area counties thought their local Boo Radley was the Zodiac killer. Buy comparison, the main thing people knew about Jim Jones was something that happened in South America. I personally didn't get what a San Francisco story it was until much later (when I read whichever Armistead Maupin novel he shows up in).

Edited June 21, 2017 by Stowaway

[pigs-in-space]

Not gonna @ you Sarah and Eve, but re: the "fuck you in the ass" thing: I do believe Jim Jones used profanity fairly regularly IIRC from Jeff Guinn's latest book on him.  Perhaps not in "public" when he was trying to recruit him at his phony faith healing sessions, but if you read some of the transcripts of his talks just to his "church" members, he's pretty open about using words like fuck, shit, etc.  I found a few examples: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Also, I have not commented before now, but I really enjoy the podcast!

[Picture It. Sicily]

Powers Booths scared the bejesus out of me in this one. Sadly Roger Rees is also no longer with us. :(

[Picture It. Sicily]

Effing autocorrect. Boothe

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Dammit, I was thinking when I was mentioning Rees, "I think he might have passed away also." MISTER RACIIIIIINE!

 

And thanks for the intel, @pigs-in-space. I don't know why I found that the unbelievable part, when basically it...all is.

[pigs-in-space]

11 minutes ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

And thanks for the intel, @pigs-in-space. I don't know why I found that the unbelievable part, when basically it...all is.

Weird things like that and what I wore to my school picture in fourth grade stick in my head, but important stuff does not somehow!

The Jeff Guinn book is really good - I listened to it on Audible a couple of months ago when I had a 2+ hour commute for awhile.  I was a little surprised at how he seemed almost sympathetic towards Jones, although my view could have been colored by the fact that before this I hadn't read or seen much beyond what is in the public consciousness already, so I really only knew the sad/disturbing parts.

[veronicamers]

48 minutes ago, pigs-in-space said:

The Jeff Guinn book is really good - I listened to it on Audible a couple of months ago when I had a 2+ hour commute for awhile.  I was a little surprised at how he seemed almost sympathetic towards Jones, although my view could have been colored by the fact that before this I hadn't read or seen much beyond what is in the public consciousness already, so I really only knew the sad/disturbing parts.

I loved the Jeff Guinn book. I welcomed the very deep dive on Jones' background as it provided some previously unknown (to me) context about why maybe he was the way he was and how things got to their tragic end. I didn't feel like it was overly sympathetic except in pretty clearly stating that Jones was committed to equality and racial parity at least in the beginning. Which to me is sort of important...don't most demagogues start with a core idea that's rather rational then it gets corrupted as they ascend to power? I never realized how drugged out Jones was. It explains some things. He's a monster don't get me wrong, but I like Guinn's style of part biography/part psychological profile/part true crime narrative as it sheds light on previously unknown areas.

[txhorns79]

Loved the podcast.  I was interested in the fact that the woman needed a new monkey because her old monkey hung itself(?)  Can a monkey commit suicide in that fashion?  Was this woman just a really bad monkey owner to drive her monkey to suicide?  Or did I just completely misunderstand what she said?

I saw the Jonestown documentary many years ago.  It's just freaky what happens when people are caught in someone's sway.  Hindsight can make it seem obvious that Jones was just out of his gourd, but he obviously had the intelligence and know how to ingratiate himself with the right people in San Francisco, and convince a heck of a lot of otherwise normal seeming people to pack up and move to the jungle with him.     

[pigs-in-space]

You're right, sympathetic really isn't the correct word.  I think his POV was very similar to what Eve mentioned in the podcast - looking back on events, people cast themselves as the hero and ascribe meaning to things later that they didn't think much of at the time.  He seemed to take a lot of the commonly accepted stories about Jones and the People's Temple with a grain of salt and tried to verify with outside research.

[StatMom]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Loved the podcast.  I was interested in the fact that the woman needed a new monkey because her old monkey hung itself(?)  Can a monkey commit suicide in that fashion?  Was this woman just a really bad monkey owner to drive her monkey to suicide?  Or did I just completely misunderstand what she said?   

I had the same question! Usually, one would assume accidental entanglement in drapery cords or something. But everything about this story is just so... outlandish? whacko? that the normal assumptions may not apply.

[Nanna]

Loved the podcast.  I was interested in the fact that the woman needed a new monkey because her old monkey hung itself(?)  Can a monkey commit suicide in that fashion?  Was this woman just a really bad monkey owner to drive her monkey to suicide?  Or did I just completely misunderstand what she said?

I saw the Jonestown documentary many years ago.  It's just freaky what happens when people are caught in someone's sway.  Hindsight can make it seem obvious that Jones was just out of his gourd, but he obviously had the intelligence and know how to ingratiate himself with the right people in San Francisco, and convince a heck of a lot of otherwise normal seeming people to pack up and move to the jungle with him.     

Right, the money hung itself? I couldn't really get past that, it was weird!
Great podcast though, think I might add the documentary to my summer warch list.

[ShellSeeker]

This was so interesting. I was almost 11 when this happened, and it is the first Major News Story I remember, where everyone pretty much stopped whatever they were doing when they heard about it. My parents and I were living in Saudi Arabia at that time, and it was a huge story on the BBC, which my parents listened to all the time.

Then it was on the cover of Time, and I remember those pictures quite clearly. I was morbidly fascinated by the story; even at that age, I could not understand why or how it could have happened. My dad finally told me to quit reading about it because it bothered him that I just could not stop thinking about it.

For years, I used the expression "drink the Kool-Aid" pretty freely without really thinking about it. Then in 2008 I watched an NBC documentary about Jonestown made to mark the 30th anniversary. Then I realized that it's really a pretty horrible thing to say, and I stopped using it.

This is one of my favorite podcasts; I look forward to it every week.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

On 22/06/2017 at 7:06 AM, txhorns79 said:

Loved the podcast.  I was interested in the fact that the woman needed a new monkey because her old monkey hung itself(?)  Can a monkey commit suicide in that fashion?  Was this woman just a really bad monkey owner to drive her monkey to suicide?  Or did I just completely misunderstand what she said?

Right?!!?!!?  Sooooooo many unanswered questions.  I feel like we need a Netflix 10 part investigative series to take a deep dive into this monkey's "suicide".   What did this monkey know and who benefitted from his permanent silence?

[swimmyfish]

On 6/21/2017 at 10:31 AM, Stowaway said:

 I personally didn't get what a San Francisco story it was until much later (when I read whichever Armistead Maupin novel he shows up in).

I think it's the 4th one? It's definitely after DeDe has her babies, because I have a strong memory of her saying that Jones loved the twins. And  maybe called them 'bunnies'? That was the only part of Tales of the City that I didn't like - it just seemed like such an insensitive and unnecessary take on tragic events. That it originally ran in a newspaper was extra upsetting to me. And now, having been reminded that the real Jones killed animals on purpose to be able to offer them funerals -- eesh.

I watched the American Experience episode back when it originally aired and (as I mentioned on the Tip Line thread) found it to be a little boring. Listening to the clips you pulled was much more interesting than I remembered, but I think the problem I had with it was something that Sarah mentioned regarding the fictionalized account: it's a very thorough record of what happened, but it doesn't really delve into they why, which is what I was really hoping for. And especially now with everything that's going on here in the US, how someone who seems so obviously to be a charlatan can build up such a loyal following? I know that the tactics they use have been well-documented, but why do some people respond to it? Because that seems like the real problem, to me - how do you get people to see reason when it seems like they have a predisposition to believe lies? Surely there must have been some people that Jones tried to recruit who turned him down - how did they see through him? 

Edited June 23, 2017 by swimmyfish

[txhorns79]

Quote

 And especially now with everything that's going on here in the US, how someone who seems so obviously to be a charlatan can build up such a loyal following? I know that the tactics they use have been well-documented, but why do some people respond to it? Because that seems like the real problem, to me - how do you get people to see reason when it seems like they have a predisposition to believe lies? Surely there must have been some people that Jones tried to recruit who turned him down - how did they see through him? 

I think they kind of delve into this in the podcast.  Jones looked for very specific types of people, typically people who were already in vulnerable situations, and he preyed on their vulnerabilities to make them dependent on him.  I don't think it really compares to anything now.   

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Thanks, Shell!

 

Quote

how do you get people to see reason when it seems like they have a predisposition to believe lies

swimmy, I think the key to Jones's success is that it started out the truth -- or true *enough*. He wanted to help people and form his own rainbow coalition. And then when he saw the power that that settled on him...well, we know the rest. 

 

txhorns, I am reminded of Scientology, to the extent that members are gotten in the door with the promise of understanding and help that isn't coming from anywhere else -- and kept there with arcane lingo and the implication that, y'know, help isn't coming from anywhere else.

[John Potts]

Re: Making Jones "too appealing"... I tend to feel that JUST portraying their monstrous side does a disservice to the victims. There must have been something positive about them (even if they were faking it) that drew people in initially. It's the same with "Stranger Danger" videos I saw growing up - children took the message that, "If a creepy old dude is hanging around a playground in a raincoat, don't go off with him" rather than "don't get in a car with anyone you don't know".

[OT, but listening to this made me realise that Sarah is almost exactly my age!]

[txhorns79]

Quote

txhorns, I am reminded of Scientology, to the extent that members are gotten in the door with the promise of understanding and help that isn't coming from anywhere else -- and kept there with arcane lingo and the implication that, y'know, help isn't coming from anywhere else.

I think you are right Sarah.  I think there's also the idea that Jones had out there for his followers that if they tried to leave, he would punish them.  My understanding was that was part of the reason for the attack on Congressman Ryan and his group.  People left Jonestown with him, Jones felt the walls closing in and went on the attack to show everyone what would happen to them if they tried to leave.     

Quote

I think it's the 4th one? It's definitely after DeDe has her babies, because I have a strong memory of her saying that Jones loved the twins. And  maybe called them 'bunnies'? That was the only part of Tales of the City that I didn't like - it just seemed like such an insensitive and unnecessary take on tragic events. That it originally ran in a newspaper was extra upsetting to me. And now, having been reminded that the real Jones killed animals on purpose to be able to offer them funerals -- eesh.

I think I saw the movie version of this storyline.  Dede is presumed dead after Jonestown, but it turns out she isn't.  Jim Jones also survives, is living in the park under an alias and becomes a love interest for one of the other characters.  He then tries to kidnap DeDe's kids (because they have some special meaning for him), and ends up getting killed(?)  It was all very, very dumb.    

[Pogojoco]

I'm just here for a tonne of monkey talk. That was epic, ladies.

[Pogojoco]

Also, this "My experience with an all encompassing religious cult began with that time in the 50s when my monkey hanged itself and I needed a new monkey" needs to be a movie or something.

[FormerMod-a1]

Maybe it was an accidental hanging,?  Maybe the monkey got caught up in some wire hangers, or the strings of blinds, or belts or something.  Either way it is odd, and did stand out.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Simian auto-erotic asphyxiation mishap?  

(Too soon?)

[txhorns79]

Quote

Also, this "My experience with an all encompassing religious cult began with that time in the 50s when my monkey hanged itself and I needed a new monkey" needs to be a movie or something.

If it hadn't already been taken, "Monkey Business" seems like the obvious choice.  Though that might suggest a light comedy rather than the dramatic tale of how a monkey mishap brought an unwitting person into the hands of a charlatan and his death cult. 

I also want to clarify that I understand entirely that while Jonestown itself isn't a humorous topic, you do sometimes have to take it where you can find it with such a dark subject matter.  Otherwise you'd never have gems like Springtime for Hitler.     

Edited June 25, 2017 by txhorns79

[SanLynn]

Not gonna @ you Sarah and Eve, but re: the "fuck you in the ass" thing: I do believe Jim Jones used profanity fairly regularly IIRC from Jeff Guinn's latest book on him.  Perhaps not in "public" when he was trying to recruit him at his phony faith healing sessions, but if you read some of the transcripts of his talks just to his "church" members, he's pretty open about using words like fuck, shit, etc.  I found a few examples: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Also, I have not commented before now, but I really enjoy the podcast!

Agreed, I just listened to a new audiobook on the subject that covered this fairly extensively and he and his congregation (including his family) used profanity very regularly with each other (according to that author).

Also really enjoy the podcast! Just found it and am catching up.