Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[rue721]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

See, I think the "you chose a demon over your own brother" thing is BS emotional manipulation. If I vote for candidate A even after my friend passionately argues that I should be voting for candidate B, does that mean I "chose candidate A over my best friend"? Of course not. It means we are different people who will at times make different choices. And if the friend says "well, if you vote for candidate A, I'll never speak to you again," that's emotional blackmail, plain and simple. 

You can also find your friend's choice morally repugnant, though. If someone is doing something that you really can't abide by in good conscience, IMO it's informative rather than manipulative to say, "if you do that, I'm out." That's basically the definition of showing integrity IMO. So I don't think Dean was crossing the line by being appalled that Sam was getting into bed (figuratively AND literally) with demons. 

I don't think he was that great at communicating it. There were a lot of punches thrown in S4 if I remember correctly. But nevertheless, IMO Dean had the right to say that he couldn't be a party to a choice like that, and that if Sam chose to work with Ruby, then he was effectively choosing NOT to work with Dean.

I think the difference between the IRL political candidate example and Dean's reaction to Sam's choice is just that most people don't feel as strongly about candidates as Dean Winchester does about demons. Although, actually, even IRL everybody here can probably think of certain political figures that they would personally draw a line at. Like, if my mom was suddenly banging David Duke and trying to get me on board with some plans of his...uh no. NO. My reaction would make Dean's reaction look very restrained lol.

Also, speaking of banging...I'm sorry but I look SO ASKANCE at Ruby literally, physically seducing Sam and then leading him around by his cock. THAT I found very (obviously) manipulative of her. Maybe she had proven herself "on the job," so I can see Sam trusting her as a semi-ally. And Sam drinking blood so that he can do mass exorcisms etc etc etc could maybe be justified as a sacrifice he's making for the greater good. But having sex with Ruby? There was no justification for that, it was benefiting literally no one -- it was just really messed up and self-destructive and weird.

Honestly, even if Ruby had been on the up and up and didn't have some dastardly plan for Sam at all, I would STILL have been like, "Sam, buddy, what's going on?" when it turned out they were sleeping together. She's a DEMON. Come on, where is the self-respect? Self-esteem? Healthy dose of cynicism? IMO that Sam was literally having sex with Ruby was the most disturbing thing about the whole blood addiction storyline. Although I doubt that's what the show was going for. And the reason I find it so utterly weird is that OK the blood drinking was practical but the sex was JUST FOR FUN. Blehhh.

And that, my friends, is why it is #1 on my list of "Signs that Sam is in Desperate Need of Therapy," as well as #1 on the sublist, "Signs that Sam Winchester is a Disconcertingly Poor Judge of Character."

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But by the VERY NEXT EPISODE he was challenging Dean on not trusting him around demons; and by Fallen Idols (as Aeryn said) when he wound up not only blaming Dean for his choice to go with Ruby, but getting furious at him for *NOT* trusting him--that just made me lose all respect.  To me, Sam was behaving like a whiny kid:  "I SAID I was sorry.  Why are you still mad?"  Yes, I can understand why he might feel like he was constantly being judged and tested, but I think either he could have asked in a less challenging/less angry way, or just acknowledged that yes, Dean *was* still hurt and bitter and waited it out till it wasn't such a sore subject.  

Up front, I'm going to say that I get this... especially looking at it through a Dean lens, but I'd like to maybe offer a different perspective?

For me, I thought that Sam knew why Dean was angry and accepted it and even told Dean that he did and would... except mostly when it affected their working relationship and/or the case. And for me that Sam was a bit sensitive in the second episode when Dean was starting to reference Sam's blood addiction was entirely understandable, because even though we, the viewers, knew that Dean didn't say the awful things Zachariah turned Dean's message into, Sam didn't know that. Sam thought that actually was Dean's message to him, so it makes sense that he'd be a bit sensitive when Dean verged into that territory. That said, by the end of that second episode, Sam was saying that Dean was right, he understood why Dean didn't trust him, and that Sam thought he should take some time off to get himself fixed so that he could be a  better hunting partner for Dean maybe in the future. So for me Sam *did* acknowledge that Dean was entirely justified in not trusting him - Sam even said that he didn't trust himself - so for me, I didn't see whining there.

The "whining" came a little in "Fallen Idols," but at the end of an episode where Sam had been pretty much taking a lot of flack from Dean... including overhearing Dean basically telling Bobby that it was all Sam's fault that the apocalypse started and which also came on the heels of the previous episode where Dean had pretty much disowned Sam and planned to cut ties with him... and then when he came back, Dean somewhat lied about why he came back. So basically Sam was getting mixed messages and didn't know how to proceed... then throw into that that Sam was worried about the people in peril since Dean wanted to leave before Sam thought the case was resolved (and Sam thought people were in danger), and Sam decided not to hold his peace any more. Sure, Sam could've kept his mouth shut and waited for a better time, but if something happened to civilians because of that, Sam would've felt horrible, and likely Dean would've also.

I also have a different interpretation on Sam's "I went with Ruby, because she made me feel strong" thing. To me, there was no implied "and you didn't" at all in there, and for me that was backed up later when Sam almost always made it clear - especially in season 5 - that they were stronger together and that he needed Dean. To me, that showed that Sam realized that his feeling of "strength" with Ruby wasn't real, and that he didn't need that kind of false  bolstering anymore. I thought he tried hard to make things up to Dean and support Dean in their efforts to fight this. He took a lot of digs - like the one in "Abandon All Hope" - in stride without starting anything, and waited until Dean decided to trust him again.

So it always amazes me how we all see the same show and interpret it differently. For me, season 5 was a strong one for Sam's character. I thought he grew quite a bit and really learned what was important to him again.

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After all, Dean has always forgiven Sam for everything...and usually winds up apologizing to him for *not* going along with him.  (That's a whole 'nother story, not for here...) 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I think that Dean sometimes doesn't forgive all that easily, even if he appears to - Dean said he understood Sam's going to college, for example, but it came up later, and Dean hadn't really seemed to have forgiven that. Which is fine with me. It's actually a fault of Dean's that I can relate to. It's human to hold grudges sometimes.

And especially more recently Dean doesn't apologize for not going along with Sam - Amy, Gadreel - though I don't really remember too many early examples of that myself either. I don't think either brother apologizes all that much for not going along with the other - and they shouldn't. Their partnership hinges on their questioning each other and filling in each other's weaknesses, and they shouldn't have to apologize for differences in opinion.

Sam used to be extremely forgiving of Dean as well - the deal for example. Sam forgave Dean for that one pretty easily. Sam's ability to forgive was something I admired about him... even as I sometimes said "really? You're not going to be even a little angry about that?" That Carver not only threw that out the window, but had Sam hold a grudge that would've made John proud is something I won't forgive him for. He seemed to try his hardest to take away Sam's good traits and replace them with more faults.

[Bessie]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I think that Dean sometimes doesn't forgive all that easily, even if he appears to - Dean said he understood Sam's going to college, for example, but it came up later, and Dean hadn't really seemed to have forgiven that. Which is fine with me. It's actually a fault of Dean's that I can relate to. It's human to hold grudges sometimes.

Dean is a champ when it comes to holding grudges against Sam and I adore that about him. Forgiveness is hard and Dean epitomizes that for me. Especially when it comes to Sam. Dean holds him to a much higher standard than anyone else in his life, which I also find endearing. Sometimes maddening, but always endearing.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bessie

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, even if Ruby had been on the up and up and didn't have some dastardly plan for Sam at all, I would STILL have been like, "Sam, buddy, what's going on?" when it turned out they were sleeping together. She's a DEMON. Come on, where is the self-respect? Self-esteem? Healthy dose of cynicism? IMO that Sam was literally having sex with Ruby was the most disturbing thing about the whole blood addiction storyline.

I don't think there was any for Sam at that point. And for me, that was one of the things I would like to have seen explored more. When Dean sold his soul and left Sam with that, I guess Dean might've thought that Sam could pick up the pieces and go on, but as Sam found out in "Mystery Spot," he really couldn't. Sam's experience there more than half broke him already, so that when Dean died for real, Sam was already mostly over the cliff. He tried to change places with Dean, he tried to drink himself to death, he tried death by demon. He felt like a failure  - which must have been difficult for someone who did have some pride - and was desperate to do almost anything that would make him not feel like utter crap.

But the writers only briefly explored that storyline and never in reference to the fact that Dean's actions in taking the deal exacerbated some of that. The deal was something Sam never would've wanted, but he was left with the aftermath. It's just that Dean's aftermath - going to hell - was so horrible that Sam would've felt like a complete jerk for complaining or resenting Dean for it... and ironically that Dean's consequences were so horrible just added to Sam feeling like crap, so Sam could now feel like he should just suck it up, how shitty was he that he couldn't? Add to that the guilt for not being able to save Dean, and yeah - Sam had none at the time he slept with Ruby. And Ruby exploited that... and left Sam chasing anything that would even be a facsimile of self-esteem and where he didn't feel like a failure.

That's why I never really bought War's "you want to be more powerful than everybody" schtick. In season 4 - and likely into season 5 - Sam would've felt lucky to have felt that he wasn't a complete failure. "More powerful than everybody" would've been overreaching "just a bit" as Death might say.

[ahrtee]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Sam "choosing Ruby over Dean" would be Sam saving Ruby in a situation where both Ruby and Dean were in danger -- or, heck, Sam giving Ruby the second ticket to a concert and leaving Dean sulking in the Impala. Deciding to trust Ruby over Dean's protests in a situation where Sam legitimately thinks he is doing what is right for the fate of the world simply doesn't fit the bill. That Dean turns out to be right in his objection doesn't change the fact that Sam isn't personally betraying Dean by going ahead with his plan.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I don't think he was that great at communicating it. There were a lot of punches thrown in S4 if I remember correctly. But nevertheless, IMO Dean had the right to say that he couldn't be a party to a choice like that, and that if Sam chose to work with Ruby, then he was effectively choosing NOT to work with Dean.

And since Dean did offer Sam the compromise:  "get rid of Ruby and I'll work with you to kill Lilith" and Sam rejected it outright (without, IIRC, explaining that he believed Ruby was necessary); and *after* Sam beat the crap out of Dean, told him he didn't want anything to do with him and stormed off to do things his own way, I can see why Dean might see it as choosing Ruby over him, not merely a difference of opinion or choosing a different plan, and why he might take it personally.  And see, you've sucked me back into this discussion again... 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

And since Dean did offer Sam the compromise:  "get rid of Ruby and I'll work with you to kill Lilith" and Sam rejected it outright (without, IIRC, explaining that he believed Ruby was necessary); and *after* Sam beat the crap out of Dean, told him he didn't want anything to do with him and stormed off to do things his own way, I can see why Dean might see it as choosing Ruby over him, not merely a difference of opinion or choosing a different plan, and why he might take it personally.  And see, you've sucked me back into this discussion again... 

Actually Sam did explain that he needed Ruby to kill Lilith. Which is what he asks Dean to trust him on this time, like he (Sam) has trusted Dean in the past. Dean says nope, Sam doesn't know what he's doing. Sam says yes, I do, and that's when Dean tells him "then that means you're a monster." (He maybe should've said that it might seem like he knows what he's doing, but he's affected by the demon blood or something? Almost anything to avoid that trigger word.)

After they fight, Sam only tells Dean that Dean doesn't know him and never will. He does leave after Dean's ultimatum, though, so I suppose that  could be interpreted as making a "choice" not to have anything to do with Dean, but Sam didn't initiate the break, and I'm not quite sure how it could've played out much differently. After you get the "If you walk out that door, don't you ever come back," if you don't walk out the door, things are going to get pretty awkward and likely tense. Not to mention, you're going to lose much of the credibility you might have had in insisting that you were right if you give in to the ultimatum. So, Sam did walk out.

Edited December 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually Sam did explain that he needed Ruby to kill Lilith. Which is what he asks Dean to trust him on this time, like he (Sam) has trusted Dean. Dean says nope, Sam doesn't know what he's doing. Sam says yes, I do, and that's when Dean tells him "then that means you're a monster." (He maybe should've said, Sam was affected by the demon blood or something? Almost anything to avoid that trigger word.)

After they fight, Sam only tells Dean that Dean doesn't know him and never will. He does leave after Dean's ultimatum, though, so I suppose that  could be interpreted as making a "choice" not to have anything to do with Dean, but Sam didn't initiate the break, and I'm not quite sure how it could've played out much differently. After you get the "If you walk out that door, don't you ever come back," if you don't walk out the door, things are going to get pretty awkward and likely tense. Not to mention, you're going to lose much of the credibility you might have had in insisting that you were right if you give in to the ultimatum. So, Sam did walk out.

Well, Sam's first "choice" was to sneak out of Bobby's house, then knock Bobby out and hide with Ruby rather than trying to get Dean to see his side.  That seems like a pretty clear choice, although yeah, it was Dean who locked him up in the first place, so I guess you could say Dean had already made his side clear, too.

But once it came down to the two of them, face to face?  You're right, I didn't remember the details, so I checked the Wiki transcript.  At first, both sides tried their hardest to convince the other, and neither side would give in.  Sam was absolutely convinced that he needed Ruby*, and Dean was absolutely convinced that he couldn't trust her (which goes back to the "I trust you, but you're asking me to trust a demon.")  But there were trigger words on both sides:   it was *really* stupid of Dean to call Sam a monster, though he did qualify it instead of saying it outright, but Sam also told Dean that he was the only one who could kill Lilith, that Dean wasn't strong enough, and to "stop bossing me around."  So I think they both had gone well beyond reasoning and into anger and were using all the weapons they could find, including Dean's final ultimatum (also a very stupid plan.)  

And after the fight, with Dean on the ground and Sam trying to strangle him?  The words Sam said might just have been "you don't know me, and you never will," but the voice, face and body language showed a fury and hatred that really couldn't be seen as anything other than absolute rejection.   So, since my original point (if I can remember it) was that *Dean* would have taken Sam's decision to go with Ruby rather than him as "choosing a demon over his brother," I stand by that, even if he was kind of forced into choosing.  But this was more than a petty squabble (or even a serious fight) about an unpopular decision--it truly was a life-or-death battle, where they both believed they were right (and, I think, both believed they were trying to save the other.)

*We know that Dean had believed since early season 3 that Ruby couldn't be trusted and that she was manipulating Sam, even if she was supposedly being helpful.  And actually, Ruby *was* being honest that she wanted to kill Lilith; she just left out the reason *why*.  But the question that was raised for me here was, why exactly did Sam believe that he needed Ruby to kill Lilith, other than she'd told him so?  (That, after all, was the main reason for the fight, and why neither side would give in.)  Ruby was tracking Lilith? ... but Bobby had a spell to track her back in season 3, which found out exactly where she was, down to the house.  To kill her?  Why didn't Ruby just give Sam the knife?  Apparently they believed it would work on her, or Sam wouldn't have tried to use it in The Monster At The End of This Book,--and IMO Lilith wouldn't have put up such a fight against it if she knew it wouldn't hurt her.  Ruby didn't help with the actual killing--all she did was procure enough demon blood to make Sam strong.  So why was Sam so convinced that Ruby had to be there, and that he had to kill Lilith solely with his mind/demon blood?  Answer...because he wasn't thinking clearly, and maybe (just maybe) Dean was (at least a little more), and knew that they could find another way *without* Ruby.  After all, that's what he always says, and (so far) it's been true.  

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 But there were trigger words on both sides:   it was *really* stupid of Dean to call Sam a monster, though he did qualify it instead of saying it outright, but Sam also told Dean that he was the only one who could kill Lilith, that Dean wasn't strong enough, and to "stop bossing me around."  So I think they both had gone well beyond reasoning and into anger and were using all the weapons they could find, including Dean's final ultimatum (also a very stupid plan.) 

I agree. They were both fed up and done at that point. And both sides - angels and Ruby - egging both of them on didn't help.

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But the question that was raised for me here was, why exactly did Sam believe that he needed Ruby to kill Lilith, other than she'd told him so?  (That, after all, was the main reason for the fight, and why neither side would give in.)  Ruby was tracking Lilith? ... but Bobby had a spell to track her back in season 3, which found out exactly where she was, down to the house.  To kill her?  Why didn't Ruby just give Sam the knife?  Apparently they believed it would work on her, or Sam wouldn't have tried to use it in The Monster At The End of This Book,--and IMO Lilith wouldn't have put up such a fight against it if she knew it wouldn't hurt her.  

This is an interesting question, and one that's going to invoke one of my long, damn posts (So I've bolded for the TL:DR folks). For me, it's something that the show never made clear. There are a lot of fuzzy details here, because apparently neither one ever mentioned that tracking spell again even though Sam mentioned a few times that they were looking for and/or couldn't find Lilith throughout the season. Whether we were supposed to assume that Lilith was stronger now, I'm not sure. The knife too and whether it would've killed Lilith is unclear. To get the knife - and information -  is why Sam summoned Ruby in "No Rest..." however after talking with her, Sam all of a sudden started questioning whether or not the knife would be enough and that maybe it was something he had to do. I'm also not sure why they had Lilith appear concerned with the knife in that episode, because later on - unless I'm remembering correctly - she was assumed to be one of the things that the knife couldn't kill. And after it didn't kill Alistair, but Sam could, I guess Sam just abandoned the knife idea. Also I think Sam though that there would've had to have been some tricky maneuvering to use the knife... and get Dean's help without Ruby. I'll explain...

Now this might sound like I'm bashing Sam and/or Dean, depending on the readers' perspective, but I'm not doing either - they both have flaws and they have a dynamic. And this also goes to your question as to why Sam wanted Ruby there: I think one of the reasons Sam wanted Ruby there is because he was desperate to fix his mistake, and I think whether subconsciously or not, Sam didn't think that Dean would let him without a difficult, perhaps unwinnable discussion. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, if they did think the knife would work... Dean had the knife, (I think) so Dean might potentially argue that well if the knife would work, he could use it. Considering that Sam both wanted to fix his own mistake and had convinced himself that Dean was - in Sam's mind - understandably damaged and didn't want Dean to go through anything else, Sam wouldn't like that option or the discussion that would have to happen to convince Dean to let Sam do it. Second, if as in "No Rest..." Sam had an idea that he was going to have to use his powers to kill Lilith, Sam would likely be pretty sure that Dean was not going to go for that - Dean was pretty angry after finding out about Alistair and there was the whole locking him in the panic room incident - unless maybe if Ruby was there to argue Sam's case that this was what had to be done.

So am I saying that I think Sam would've thought that he couldn't win a straight discussion on how to kill Lilith with Dean on his own? Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I think there is precedence, and it all relates to and goes back to what Sam later told Dean in "Fallen Idols." He and Dean have a brotherly dynamic, and Dean is used to being the Big Brother and protector, and Sam is used to being the little brother and every-once-in-a-while-reluctant follower. That can be a hard habit to break. This is not to say that Dean is "too bossy" or that Sam is just being a "brat." It just is what it is - which is why the "Fallen Idols" conversation never bothered me. They were actually acting out very similar dynamics here - with Sam asking for Dean to just trust him on this, and Dean, knowing that Sam was wrong, understandably putting his big brother foot down. The situation in "Fallen Idols" just happened to be reversed in that in that instance, Sam was the one who was right about the situation, but it was still difficult - and exacerbated by what happened - for Dean to trust Sam's judgement on that and not his own Big Brother instincts.*

So I'm basically saying that I think not only did Sam think he needed Ruby for intel on how to kill Lilith, but that he thought that he needed her for "moral support" as a second voice to say that something he knew Dean would hate had to be done, because Sam likely didn't think that Dean would believe Sam alone on that point. As to why Sam might think Dean would listen to Ruby... I don't know: brain damage? But at least he'd have another voice to try to convince Dean.

But by "Fallen Idols" Sam had realized that had been his mistake - that he had needed Ruby, because she made him feel "strong" and not like the little brother... and that that wasn't necessarily a good thing either, even if it momentarily felt like it was.

Or at least that was my interpretation anyway.

* (And unpopular opinion here: I think Dean is sometimes a little bit bossy. So what? It doesn't make him a bad person, and I don't see why it makes Sam a bad person for even broaching the subject. If it's okay for Dean to call Sam arrogant, because Sam sometimes is, I think it should be okay for Sam to infer that Dean is bossy, because Dean sometimes is. It doesn't mean that Sam is blaming Dean's bossiness for his own reaction to that bossiness or his own mistakes - which Sam admitted were his (Sam's) fault... but it doesn't negate that Dean is sometimes bossy. That's just my opinion on that.)

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But this was more than a petty squabble (or even a serious fight) about an unpopular decision--it truly was a life-or-death battle, where they both believed they were right (and, I think, both believed they were trying to save the other.)

Agreed, and based on the dynamics above, it was likely always going to end badly, because neither was going to overcome the path they had gotten themselves onto.

[Aeryn13]

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 I think it should be okay for Sam to infer that Dean is bossy, because Dean sometimes is. It doesn't mean that Sam is blaming Dean's bossiness for his own reaction to that bossiness or his own mistakes - which Sam admitted were his (Sam's) fault... but it doesn't negate that Dean is sometimes bossy. 

What I had a real problem with is that in the latter half of Season 4 we got not only the "I`m stronger, smarter, faster and you are the weak boohoo-guy" under the siren spell but pretty much had the sentiment repeated when Sam wasn`t under the influence. The hallucination of his mother told him that he, Sam, was strong and yes, in comparism Dean was weak. What else is "he can never know how strong you are" really? We had stuff like Dean tiredly asking to at least not be lied to his face and in response Sam lied to his face, badly. What, he doesn`t know how dismissive that is? And of course the "now, I showed you, bitch" moment after he strangled him.

We got all of those moments of seeing Dean as and thinking of him as weak and inferior. And yet in Season 5 suddenly it was all because Dean was too bossy and authoritative? Well, which is it? Because it can`t be both simulteaneously. Even if Sam was only making himself feel strong by looking down on Dean and going "well, I`m stronger than that so finally I win", it means he wasn`t in the mindset to be "bossed" around. That drove me nuts, either Sam saw Dean as a pathetic weakling or as a mean bully whose clutches he needed to escape but not both at the same time. 

Nope instead we got that during Season 4 it was the pathetic weakling but in Season 5 it retroactively became the mean bully with the iron fist. That is bullshit in my eyes. Always has been. I wouldn`t have minded if Sam put that forth as revisionist history but the narrative agreeing with his viewpoint? BS. Guess in the end of that Season Sam even won on both accounts: he was the strong and important one whereas Dean ended up being the unimportant flunky on his knees and Sam as the Chosen One had the only real authority to call any shots for the world-saving. So he really could be the stronger/smarter/better boss.

That`s what Season 5 and its Finale ultimately did in my eyes, validated what Siren-bespelled-Sam said as the truth. Too bad that I hated what he said and disagreed with every word. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

What else is "he can never know how strong you are" really?

It can be "He's always going to see you as his little brother?" Because Sam is, and that's how Dean was raised to see him, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there in Sam deciding he's not comfortable with that anymore.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

We had stuff like Dean tiredly asking to at least not be lied to his face and in response Sam lied to his face, badly. What, he doesn`t know how dismissive that is?

I'm sure Sam did, but he was too far gone to really acknowledge it at that time. He had his own shit to deal with. And if some of that crappiness towards Dean was buried resentment for Dean making the deal in the first place, it's not necessarily nice of Sam, but it's understandable, in my opinion.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

We got all of those moments of seeing Dean as and thinking of him as weak and inferior. And yet in Season 5 suddenly it was all because Dean was too bossy and authoritative? Well, which is it? Because it can`t be both simulteaneously.

It was neither one, in my opinion, and I thought that's what the narrative showed. If Dean was so "weak and inferior" why was Sam the one who was addicted, was being influenced by a demon and oh yeah... started the apocalypse? Because Sam was delusional. I thought that was pretty straightforward myself. Even Ruby pointed that out before her own delusion got her killed.

As for Dean being too bossy and authoritative - I never saw that either. And that wasn't even what Sam said. Sam said that Ruby made him feel strong, not like the little brother. That isn't saying that Dean is a bully*. Or that even Dean being the Big Brother is necessarily wrong. Sam was saying it didn't really work for him any more. He wanted it to be more equal for the sake of the job. There's the argument that well, then Sam should change himself instead... but in this case that would've lead to potentially more dead people, because Dean was insisting they leave right then, the job was over. Sam was saying that wouldn't work for him anymore if they were going to have a working relationship - Sam even told Dean that Dean could think whatever he wanted of him personally, that Sam deserved it - but professionally, that was different.

It was sort of like John and Dean... at some point, Dean realized that John calling all of the shots wasn't going to work for him anymore. That doesn't mean that the way they worked before with John as the leader was wrong - apparently the two worked well together - it was just that Dean changed, and he wanted his and John's working relationship to change also. I don't think it's too coincidental that Sam was about the same age here as Dean was when he decided the same thing. And I'm not saying that Dean was as authoritarian as John was, but that makes sense since Sam and Dean are closer in age.

Dean also could've said no - he was certainly ready to kiss Sam goodbye the episode before, so it wasn't like Dean wasn't capable of it. And there was always Castiel to watch Sam if he thought Sam would mess everything up.

* I don't agree with comparing "bossy" to "bully," because I don't think those two things are equivalent. People can be bossed around on occasion - maybe at work, or in the army, or by an authority - but not every instance of that is the person being a bully. Sometimes they are doing their job.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even if Sam was only making himself feel strong by looking down on Dean and going "well, I`m stronger than that so finally I win", it means he wasn`t in the mindset to be "bossed" around.

I didn't think it was about "winning." It was about not failing - that's a big difference to me. And as I said - delusional. Sam wanted to believe that he could fix things after failing to save Dean before, so telling himself that Dean needed to still be saved now gave him the excuse to "get it right this time" - except that... delusional, so he didn't.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

...but the narrative agreeing with his viewpoint? BS. Guess in the end of that Season Sam even won on both accounts: he was the strong and important one whereas Dean ended up being the unimportant flunky on his knees and Sam as the Chosen One had the only real authority to call any shots for the world-saving. So he really could be the stronger/smarter/better boss.

I didn't see the narrative saying this. In my opinion, it was Sam's turn to get to have a positive effect on the finale. He spent the season 2 finale pretty much being the damsel in distress in his own supposed mytharc - which I still argue had almost as much to do with Dean as it did Sam - first being killed and saved by Dean, and then lying on the ground as Dean and John killed Aazazel. (Sure Sam killed Jake, but that had no effect on the outcome and was just a big "ooh, Sam's all wrong." red herring.) Narratively, it wouldn't have been as satisfying for me if Dean had to save Sam again - especially since this time Sam was the one labeled with starting the mess. But I saw Dean's presence there as important though (unlike Sam in season 2, but that's okay since Sam got this one), so for me it's a bit different.

If Dean had done the saving, though, Sam wouldn't be taking responsibility for his own mistakes and might as well remain the little brother depending on Dean to do it for him. Then Sam would just be the screw up everyone thought he was who can't do anything on his own. That's not very satisfying, in my opinion. I prefer the brothers on more even footing myself, and Sam rarely gets a big win - this being his only one in the series if I'm recalling correctly. Dean had Azazel and Zachariah and would have half a dozen other wins/big kills to come later in the series.

But I understand that we aren't ever going to agree on this, since for you, you wouldn't care if Sam never got a significant win or was able to fix his mistakes. I however happen to like both brothers - flaws and all - and want to see them both grow, change, and have important wins.

Edited December 20, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There's the argument that well, then Sam should change himself instead... but in this case that would've lead to potentially more dead people, because Dean was insisting they leave right then

I just have to point out that they didn't stay because Sam convinced Dean or argued that people might still be in danger--the car was already packed, and Sam was already accusing Dean of not treating him like an equal (NOT pushing him to stay because people might still be in danger) when the sheriff called and said there was another problem (I think it was the girl kidnapped by Paris Hilton).  The actual quote:

DEAN: What do you want me to do?

SAM: You're gonna have to let me grow up, for starters.

DEAN's cell phone rings. He stares at SAM, then puts his bag down and answers it.

DEAN: Yeah? (He looks to SAM, then away again.)

DEAN: Yeah. Yeah, okay. (He hangs up.)

DEAN: I guess you were right about this not being over.

So we'll never really know whether Dean would have listened to him or not.  Based on past experiences, I think he probably would have, *IF* Sam had stressed the case rather than the personal side of Dean not treating him like an equal.   IMO, that was a tactical error. 

TBH, that one line: "you're going to have to let me grow up" is what made me throw something at the TV way back when (and still makes me furious).  Because honestly?  If you're trying to convince your big brother (or parent, or boss, or anyone) that you deserve to be treated like an adult, you don't ask them to *LET* you grow up.  Is that what you meant by "Sam should change himself"?  Because if so, IA with that.  Asking Dean to "let him" grow up is taking the responsibility (and blame if it doesn't work) away from himself and putting it on Dean.  JMO.

[AwesomO4000]

58 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I just have to point out that they didn't stay because Sam convinced Dean or argued that people might still be in danger--the car was already packed, and Sam was already accusing Dean of not treating him like an equal (NOT pushing him to stay because people might still be in danger) when the sheriff called and said there was another problem (I think it was the girl kidnapped by Paris Hilton).

But I think Sam was potentially going to stay.  Even though they were packed, Sam was trying to get Dean to listen to him, arguing pretty heavily all the reasons he didn't think the thing was a ghost and that he didn't think the case was over. Sam gave a list of reasons - the "ghost" didn't scream, it didn't flame out, and that "Gandhi" tried to bite him (Sam) even though the real Gandhi was a fruitrian. But Dean wasn't listening, laughed at Sam because his hero Gandhi was a fruitarian, and insisted it was a ghost, now let's go. Sam starts getting annoyed at that and complains that first Dean dragged him here, now he's dragging him out. Dean says "You ain't steering this boat. Let's go, chop-chop." And that's when Sam complained that it wasn't going to work and gave the explanation that the reason he went with Ruby was to not feel like the kid brother.

I was under the impression though that if Dean hadn't stopped and listened to him, or insisted on leaving anyway, that Sam might have stayed to finish the case, but it has been a while since I've seen the episode, so I'd have to rewatch and see what Sam's attitude was. If I remember correctly, he was pretty concerned about it not being over... Though of course you're right, if Sam had continued further and argued specifically that people might get hurt, Dean might have listened then - it's hard to say - but I think maybe Sam let Dean's laughing at him for Gandhi get under his skin a little bit. Heh. Those pesky family dynamics - I know my Mom can still get under my skin pretty easily if she puts her mind to it even if I know I shouldn't let her. Sometimes I can stop myself, but sometimes I can't, and I let her get to me anyway. Sigh.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, that one line: "you're going to have to let me grow up" is what made me throw something at the TV way back when (and still makes me furious).  Because honestly?  If you're trying to convince your big brother (or parent, or boss, or anyone) that you deserve to be treated like an adult, you don't ask them to *LET* you grow up.

I have to agree with you there - that line was stupid. The writing in this scene was pretty bad - which is unfortunate, because the concepts that they were trying to convey in this episode were important to the storyline, I thought. The line should've been more along the lines of Dean treating him as more of an equal, which I think is what Sam was looking for.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

 Is that what you meant by "Sam should change himself"?

No, my fault. I should have used "compromise" instead of "change." I actually meant that I didn't think Sam should have caved in to Dean's insisting they leave and just nodded his head and agreed in order to keep the peace and be apologetic, because even though Sam was sorry, this was a case and so the stakes were higher. Sam here was asking Dean for a compromise in Dean's behavior, so I have seen it argued that to show he was sorry, Sam should have been the one to compromise and just sucked it up and lived with feeling like "the little brother" since he'd messed up. My point here was that I didn't think Sam should have been the one to compromise - in this particular case - if he thought the job wasn't over and therefore it might be left undone if they did leave as Dean asked.

[Aeryn13]

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But I understand that we aren't ever going to agree on this, since for you, you wouldn't care if Sam never got a significant win or was able to fix his mistakes. I however happen to like both brothers - flaws and all - and want to see them both grow, change, and have important wins.

I think it`s more a question of prioritizing different things. You may consider stuff a negative or at best not really significant that for me is a huge narrative boon. For example the flashy demon powers. I`d have make grabby hands if could have gotten flashy powers for at least a Season for Dean, no matter if they were supposedly evil or something. As long as they made for badass scenes, gimme. And in the reverse not see the insults in things, like Season 8.B that make me wanna pour bleach into my eyes and cringe in embarassment for the character. 

Sam getting a win in and of itself wasn`t my problem. Spitting on Dean in the process very much was. And while I was happy that he wasn`t thrown out of the mytharc in Season 11, I`m still equally disappointed that the depiction of said mytharc as well as the world-saving was done with way less flash and fanfare than the Season 5 thing for Sam. That might make me shallow but visually and narratively I simply wanted "bigger".

And I wouldn`t have minded if they had done a "bad consequences, you broke the world" thing re: killing Death for Dean. Because yay, mytharc, here we come. I can get you are sick of that for Sam but I`m in the opposite position, I WISH I had gotten enough to even begin to get sick of it. Grass is always greener and all.        

[RulerofallIsurvey]

It's been a few days since I read the comments on the board, so if I address something old, feel free to just ignore it.

On 12/17/2016 at 3:57 AM, mertensia said:

Also that it is perfectly natural that a bunch of romantic teenage girls are Sam fans: mom killed when he was six months old, girlfriend dies tragically, etc., etc. The only thing missing is he doesn't sparkle.

He sparkled plenty at the end of Plucky Pennywhistle's.  ;)

On 12/17/2016 at 7:19 AM, Aeryn13 said:

But in meta-episodes it`s basically their go-to fangirl so to me it feels like using those episode to erase people who have the audicity to like Dean aka the wrong character. 

On the other hand - using Becky as an archetypal  fan-girl, is not very flattering to people who like Sam.  

On 12/17/2016 at 9:36 AM, Aeryn13 said:

The second half of Season 4 it got so bad, I basically couldn`t wait to see the character hoisted by his own petard. And then in Season 5 they go and basically make Sam`s arrogance Dean`s fault. The character never ever recovered for me.

I agree that S4 was bad for Sam's character.  I think I barely made it thought that Season on Netflix.  But I also agree with @AwesomO4000 (I think it was) that I never thought the show made Sam's arrogance Dean's fault.  IMO, it was always shown to be his (Sam's) own fault.

On 12/18/2016 at 2:08 AM, ahrtee said:

(Wasn't there a line somewhere--and I'm pretty sure it was Dean but I can't remember what season or ep--when Sam said something like "can't you just trust me" and Dean said, "yeah, I trust you, but you're asking me to trust [a demon/monster] and I can't do that."  That makes sense to me.) (Maybe it was about Amy?)

Regarding the bolded part: different discussion I know (or is it?) - but when that was Sam's attitude with Benny, he (Sam) was wrong and most people's opinion sided with Dean - like how DARE Sam question Dean on this!  Iirc, that was even pretty much Dean's attitude about it.  So I think maybe that supports the claim that the narrative shows Sam be wrong more than Dean is.  

On 12/18/2016 at 11:16 PM, companionenvy said:

I'm defending Sam largely because I don't see Dean bashing on these boards, whereas I do see a lot of criticism of Sam. If people were spending time talking about how horrible Dean was for letting Gadreel possess Sam or for befriending Benny, I'd be defending him. In fact, I have defended his friendship with Benny. It just doesn't seem to strike as much of a nerve. 

It also seems to me that I read much more Sam criticism on this forum than I do Dean criticism.  But that could also just be my slight preference* for Sam skewing my perspective.  :)  

*I say slight, because I really do like both brothers and most times I can sympathize with both of them.

19 hours ago, ahrtee said:

TBH, that one line: "you're going to have to let me grow up" is what made me throw something at the TV way back when (and still makes me furious).  Because honestly?  If you're trying to convince your big brother (or parent, or boss, or anyone) that you deserve to be treated like an adult, you don't ask them to *LET* you grow up.  Is that what you meant by "Sam should change himself"?  Because if so, IA with that.  Asking Dean to "let him" grow up is taking the responsibility (and blame if it doesn't work) away from himself and putting it on Dean.  JMO.

I disagree with the bolded.  As the youngest in my family ("the baby" even though my oldest brother married someone younger than me) I essentially had to say that several years back, while living on my own, paying my own bills, mind you.  It's not about taking the responsibility off the person asking, it's about getting the person(s) being asked to see their own part in the dynamic.  A child, or younger sibling, can DO all the right things - make responsible choices, etc. etc. etc. and STILL the parents and/or older siblings treat them like they are 5 years old - because in their minds, they are that little child they raised.  Isn't that one of the reasons so many people dread going home over the holidays?  Because even married with children, their parents still talk to them like they are children themselves?  And I realize that it's difficult for the parents/older siblings to accept that the younger ones aren't still those little kids with skinned knees who need help pouring a glass of milk anymore.  One half of a relationship cannot make all the changes.  So yeah, the parents/older siblings also have to "let" the younger child grow up in their own minds and attitudes: they have to start treating them as an equal instead of a subordinate.  I hope I explained that properly.  

[Aeryn13]

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On the other hand - using Becky as an archetypal  fan-girl, is not very flattering to people who like Sam.  

It`s a pretty open secret that show "Becky" is based on a real life so-called Big Name Fan. And by all accounts and purposes, they didn`t take much dramatic licence there.

Still would have loved to have a prominent Dean-fangirl as a counterweight in a meta-episode like the highschool fanfic thing. Not that that fangirl needed to be perfect but represent the other side of the fandom. The convention episode had its own problems in representation as well with them being mainly guys and be ridiculously paired up in all Dean/Sam pairings. I only related to the guy the writers passive-agressively killed in that ep for being critical. Going by their twitters, yup, that is how they are able to handle criticism.  

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but when that was Sam's attitude with Benny, he (Sam) was wrong and most people's opinion sided with Dean - like how DARE Sam question Dean on this!  Iirc, that was even pretty much Dean's attitude about it.  So I think maybe that supports the claim that the narrative shows Sam be wrong more than Dean is.  

And even Dean made an effort to get along with Ruby during the middle part of Season 4. He even acknowledged her help when he himself was in hell.

With Benny, yes, he didn`t come clean right away but what we got from Sam was in one episode a gleefully superior reaction how Dean would surely look bad once it came out that a vampire helped him escape from Purgatory. That was one the most tone-deaf reactions from Sam I`ve seen in the entire show. Like he seriously think it makes Dean look bad that he needed a vampire to stay alive and return to the world while Sam`s side of the story is "I sat on my ass"? Jesus Christ. 

Then we got siccing a mentally unstable hunter on Benny, cuffing Dean to a radiator - and Dean`s position in this episode was "I don`t think he did it, give me one day to prove it, otherwise I`ll kill him myself", like how unreasonable -  and that hilarious scene where Sam speeds off mid-hunt, nearly running over Martin in the woods. Afterwards there is the ultimatum of "drop all contact".

And that from Mister "Monster`s deserve a chance".

Again, I didn`t mind so much Sam`s position overall as his conduct during that time. I personally wanted to punch his lights out several times.

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It also seems to me that I read much more Sam criticism on this forum than I do Dean criticism. 

Admittedly I like having one place on the internet where Dean isn`t the most horrible abusive monster and Sam isn`t the literal incarnation of Jesus Christ. 

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But I also agree with @AWESOMO4000 (I think it was) that I never thought the show made Sam's arrogance Dean's fault.  IMO, it was always shown to be his (Sam's) own fault.

It probably wasn`t so much as making the arrogance Dean?s fault as claiming Sam was never behaving arrogantly in the first place and that he really was the better and stronger one and it was Dean`s fault for not falling in line with that and admitting his inferiority. I found that mindblowingly offensive. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s a pretty open secret that show "Becky" is based on a real life so-called Big Name Fan.

Well, I'm pretty in the dark about inside things like that (and happy that way) so I did not know this.  Still, if Becky was supposedly "every Sam-girl" then that is not a flattering depiction of Sam-fans at all.  

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Still would have loved to have a prominent Dean-fangirl as a counterweight in a meta-episode like the highschool fanfic thing.

Um...wasn't that Maeve?  The other prominent female student in the ep?  So I don't understand the grievance here.

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Again, I didn`t mind so much Sam`s position overall as his conduct during that time. I personally wanted to punch his lights out several times.

Agreed.  Sam's conduct during S8 (and most of S9) was horrendous.  I also wanted to punch him several times.  :)

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Admittedly I like having one place on the internet where Dean isn`t the most horrible abusive monster and Sam isn`t the literal incarnation of Jesus Christ. 

We must surf different sites.  I don't think I've ever seen consistent opinions that Dean is the most horrible abusive monster.  Sure, I've seen a couple posts here and there like that, but they are usually few and far between and I just write them off as rabid Becky-types.  And I've only seen the Sam as incarnation of Jesus Christ* once - and again I wrote that off as a rabid Becky-type who posted it.  

*I thought - and still hope - that maybe that post was just in jest, because I cannot even Fathom they could be serious.  It's repulsive to me for personal reasons, but also for the character it would negate Sam's...I don't know, not just agency, but also heroism because he wouldn't be just a regular person doing the best he can.  Same would go for Dean.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It probably wasn`t so much as making the arrogance Dean?s fault as claiming Sam was never behaving arrogantly in the first place and that he really was the better and stronger one and it was Dean`s fault for not falling in line with that and admitting his inferiority.

I don't recall anything in the narrative that pointed to claiming Sam was never behaving arrogantly.  I know I thought he was.  Of course, it's been awhile since I watched those episodes, so maybe my memory is just faulty.  As far as showing that Sam really was the better and stronger one - well, if there was anything narratively speaking during the season that claimed that, isn't that completely nullified at the end by, as @AwesomO4000 points out, the fact that Sam started the apocalypse?  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Um...wasn't that Maeve?  The other prominent female student in the ep?  So I don't understand the grievance here.

Marie was shown to be smart, clever, brave, talented in music who could sing as well as writing good music & lyrics. She waxed poetic about her "brave, sweet, selfless Sam" to Dean's face.  To me, Marie was the apology to Sam-girls for Becky.  She was pretty great and IMO inoffensive.

The only thing I recall Maeve saying about Dean to Sam if he cut his hair he'd make a pretty good Dean.  I don't know that really suggests that Maeve was a hard-core Dean-girl to the extent that Marie was a Sam-girl, IMO. There was a deleted scene that was never in the episode wherein she said Dean was hot. Nothing about Dean's bravery, smarts etc. If she was representing Dean-girls who IMO appreciate Dean for more than his looks, she did them no favors, IMO. 

[shang yiet]

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Admittedly I like having one place on the internet where Dean isn`t the most horrible abusive monster and Sam isn`t the literal incarnation of Jesus Christ. 

There are any number of fan sites on the internet where Sam is the abusive monster and Dean is compared to Jesus Christ. I'm sure you know where they are. 

I hope this site isn't going to turn into TWOP. Now that site was populated with very dedicated fans who thought Sam was the most abusive monster while noble Dean practically wore a halo. I remember the mod there had to shut down the Brotherly Bonds thread for good since it had become all about how horrible Sam was to Dean and the mod got fed up reading the same old stuff every day.

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

One half of a relationship cannot make all the changes.

ITA with this statement but in a dysfunctional co-dependent relationship, it's a two-way street and from what we've been shown Sam plays a part in it, too. Dean might cling too tightly at times, but Sam depends upon it when it suits his purpose and even while he rails against it vehemently when it doesn't. And we have been shown that this is indeed a large part of the co-dependency, IMO, but it has not once ever been addressed in a real fashion AKA in a real conversation between these brothers when both are clear-headed and unaffected by a supernatural elelment-not that I can recall anyway-while Dean clinging too tightly has been brought up repeatedly in both ways. This is just one of the problems that I've had with the writing concerning the brother bond for years.

14 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It's not about taking the responsibility off the person asking, it's about getting the person(s) being asked to see their own part in the dynamic.

I think Sam should be asked/encouraged by the writers to see his own part in the dysfunction also. And they should write some actual dialogue to  it. The closest they ever got was way back in S1 in Something Wicked, IMO and that was only the tip of the iceberg and Sam hasn't been "cured" of it at all from what I've seen in recent seasons and even as recently as just last season when the Amara fog affected him. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Marie was shown to be smart, clever, brave, talented in music who could sing as well as writing good music & lyrics. She waxed poetic about her "brave, sweet, selfless Sam" to Dean's face.  To me, Marie was the apology to Sam-girls for Becky.  She was pretty great and IMO inoffensive.

The only thing I recall Maeve saying about Dean to Sam if he cut his hair he'd make a pretty good Dean.  I don't know that really suggests that Maeve was a hard-core Dean-girl to the extent that Marie was a Sam-girl, IMO. There was a deleted scene that was never in the episode wherein she said Dean was hot. Nothing about Dean's bravery, smarts etc. If she was representing Dean-girls who IMO appreciate Dean for more than his looks, she did them no favors, IMO. 

Fyi- I've not seen the deleted scene you mentioned.  I didn't know it existed.  I don't own the DVD and have only watched the episode on Netflix.  So, if I can come away with the impression that Maeve was a pretty big Dean-fan, then I think it's fairly obvious, as I tend to be oblivious about subtleties.  That being said:

Marie also thought very highly of Dean.  This is from "A Single Man Tear", Sam singing about Dean.  But since this was Marie's interpretation of Supernatural, then it stands to reason that this is her view of Dean:

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"I wish that he could see the way I see him The perfect brother, a man without sin."

 Wow.  Dean is 'perfect' and 'without sin'.  (And this is AFTER he was a demon!)  That's some serious Dean-propping there.  At least as much as the "brave, sweet, selfless Sam" line.  

Maeve was also smart, clever, and brave - and extremely cool under pressure.  Marie practically broke down and had to have Sam, Dean, and Maeve bolster her back up.  Maeve was a genius who was good with technology - she was stage manager, ran the light and sound system and probably created quite a few of the props from next to nothing.  That's pretty damn creative.  So, as a representative "every-Dean-girl": she's freaking awesome sauce.  Compare that to Becky and there's no contest which fans come out looking better.

The line about making a good Dean?  From the transcript:

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MAEVE : Usually, this is when Sam and Dean take off, before anyone asks any questions.

SAM : That's probably a good idea.

MAEVE : Thanks for saving my friends.

SAM : Sure.

MAEVE : You know ? If you'd cut your hair a little, you'd make a pretty good Dean.

 So...wow.  Sam just saved helped save her friends.  He stabbed Caliope and Maeve tells him that he'd make a pretty good Dean.   That's kind of a slap in the face to Sam, if you ask me.  (Imagine if Marie had told Dean that if he grew his hair, he'd make a pretty good Sam and how you'd feel about that line.)  Notice it was not a pretty good "brave, selfless Sam," not a 'great' Dean or even a 'good' Dean.  Just a "pretty good" Dean.  Now, granted that it's all up to individual interpretations of course, but to me that says Maeve thinks much more highly of Dean than she does of the the real life Sam right in front of her.  

Lastly, if Marie was the apology to Sam-girls for Becky - and Becky pretty much only appreciated Sam for his looks - and Becky's first appearance was Season 5 and Fan Fiction was Season 10 - then by my calculation, Dean girls should get their 'apology' for Maeve (not that I think they need one as she was leaps and bounds better than Becky) by Season 15!  :)

[Aeryn13]

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As far as showing that Sam really was the better and stronger one - well, if there was anything narratively speaking during the season that claimed that, isn't that completely nullified at the end by, as @AWESOMO4000 points out, the fact that Sam started the apocalypse?  

I`m talking about Season 5 and it basically retconning Season 4. For me the message in Season 5 was "Sam really IS the big kahuna" so retroactively he wasn`t arrogant in thinking so during Season 4, the problem was everyone else not supporting and propping him. And Season 5 ended with the biggest hero moment the show has done so far. The Season 11 Finale wasn`t remotely as flashy.  

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*I thought - and still hope - that maybe that post was just in jest, because I cannot even Fathom they could be serious. 

The few I`ve seen have certainly not been in jest. And I don`t even have a problem with talking about Christ imagery, you can`t watch a Zack Snyder film without drowning in it and SPN certainly does use it, too, but when it becomes a meta shorthand for "an utter saint", it is too much for me.

Dean is by far my favourite character and he isn`t saintly. I even have other favourite characters in other shows who are depicted with less outright flaws. And some with way more of course. 

To be fair to such metas, I think it`s a vibe the show is going for as well with Sam which is why it puts me off. Maybe not quite that far but already too far for me.

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And we have been shown that this is indeed a large part of the co-dependency, IMO, but it has not once ever been addressed in a real fashion AKA in a real conversation between these brothers when both are clear-headed and unaffected by a supernatural elelment-not that I can recall anyway-while Dean clinging too tightly has been brought up repeatedly in both ways. 

Agreed. Call out both or call out none. 

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Wow.  Dean is 'perfect' and 'without sin'.  (And this is AFTER he was a demon!)

They wouldn`t know about the demon thing, though. Not sure how far up the books are supposed to go now, Season 5?

And "perfect" only in conjunction with brother. Which even I wouldn`t argue is the case. It is ridiculous that someone is a perfect mother/father/brother/sister/son/daughter. Admittedly, I don`t like it when Dean is defined pretty much just in relation to Sam. Not everyone looks at Sam first and then everyone else second. 

Overall I do think "brave, sweet, selfless" is better propping.

I just know that the fanfiction episode just made me feel disenfranchised and not at all like a love letter. I found it quite meh. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is by far my favourite character and he isn`t saintly. I even have other favourite characters in other shows who are depicted with less outright flaws. And some with way more of course. 

To be fair to such metas, I think it`s a vibe the show is going for as well with Sam which is why it puts me off. Maybe not quite that far but already too far for me.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this - because I'm afraid I'll get crucified (speaking of Christ imagery) for stating my opinion - but it seems to me as if you're justifying some of your pretty harsh criticism of Sam because of what negative views you read about Dean (your favorite) on other websites.   Yet, I'm sure as @shang yiet pointed out, there are plenty of sites on the net where Dean is the saint.  To be fair, I've not seen anyone on this forum claim Sam is a saint either, so once again, I don't understand the grievance here.  It wouldn't make any sense if I took out frustration over Sam-bashing which I read on another site on this forum and came here and bashed Dean.

And it really must be some incredibly different interpretations, because NOTHING I've seen on the show suggested to me that they were going for any Sam as Christ imagery - even the sacrifice at the end of S5.  That was all about fixing his own mistakes.  Nothing more.  

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They wouldn`t know about the demon thing, though. Not sure how far up the books are supposed to go now, Season 5?

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall I do think "brave, sweet, selfless" is better propping.

Okay.  It was still after Dean went to Hell and started torturing other souls in Hell, thereby breaking the First Seal - the First Seal that led to starting the Apocalypse.  And after that, he's still "without sin"?  Talk about your Christ imagery (Who was 'without sin'.)  Nope.  That's way better propping than "brave, sweet, selfless."

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

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"I wish that he could see the way I see him The perfect brother, a man without sin."

 Wow.  Dean is 'perfect' and 'without sin'.  (And this is AFTER he was a demon!)  That's some serious Dean-propping there.  At least as much as the "brave, sweet, selfless Sam" line.  

To be fair, not only is this a song (and therefore subject to hyperbole and the need to rhyme), it's pretty clear that it's saying that's how *Sam* sees him, not necessarily anyone else.  So even if you want to consider it Marie's thoughts, it's still saying that she thinks that's how Sam thinks.  (Which, if you want to look for more insult, can mean that Sam is so forgiving and in awe of his brother...but I'm not going there.)  

[Aeryn13]

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this - because I'm afraid I'll get crucified (speaking of Christ imagery) for stating my opinion - but it seems to me as if you're justifying some of your pretty harsh criticism of Sam because of what negative views you read about Dean (your favorite) on other websites. 

It doesn`t help my views of Sam when I see epic propping but for me the bucks stops mainly with the show. That is where I think that crap comes from. As well as the Dean-bashing the show happily engages in. The versus writing, the pitting one brother against the other, sure, it has become battle lines and trenches in fandom now but IMO the show went out of its way to go there. You will never escape it with a cast of only two people, there will always be compare and contrast but the show is the biggest instigator for me.

So yes, very different interpretations of the show itself. Fan commentary can rankle but the source material is key. I don`t like people trying to fix me up with someone in real life and I don`t like it when TV writers do it with fictional characters either. Especially not at the expense of the character(s) I do like.

Though, when I said Christ imagery on SPN, I was actually talking about quite literal "imagery" as in the character in Crucifixion pose - like in the Season 5 Finale - or that thing they once attached to Sam`s head that invoked the crown of thorns. I don`t think those things are to be taken as literal as say nearly every scene of Superman in Men of Steel. And Dean may or may not have had the occasional lens flare halo or shadow or pose that invoked Christ imagery.

I don`t think the show does it that intentionally. But you don`t need to do that to do some epic character propping. 

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To be fair, not only is this a song (and therefore subject to hyperbole and the need to rhyme), it's pretty clear that it's saying that's how *Sam* sees him, not necessarily anyone else.  So even if you want to consider it Marie's thoughts, it's still saying that she thinks that's how Sam thinks. 

Yup. Which means either the books are very selectively written - Chuck admitted to leaving the demon blood drinking out to garner up sympathy for the Sam-character in them - or a lot of stuff just flew by her then.

And she definitely didn`t hear the Purge speech of "you are nothing but a selfish, delusional coward and have never been anything else either". 

I always found it hilarious that Dean only seemed to take offense to the part about Sam not doing the same thing. Dude, that was the nicest thing he said to you in that entire speech. Otherwise he called you garbage. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

13 hours ago, shang yiet said:

There are any number of fan sites on the internet where Sam is the abusive monster and Dean is compared to Jesus Christ. I'm sure you know where they are. 

I hope this site isn't going to turn into TWOP. Now that site was populated with very dedicated fans who thought Sam was the most abusive monster while noble Dean practically wore a halo. I remember the mod there had to shut down the Brotherly Bonds thread for good since it had become all about how horrible Sam was to Dean and the mod got fed up reading the same old stuff every day.

 

Amen.

I just simply avoid THIS thread because it's the same arguments, the same biases, the same cud that is chewed over and over again. I'll pop in from time to time to see if there's something new (like your post).  

The rule of the site is "don't be a dick".  If that's happening here (and I don't know, because I'm not reading the tomes), then someone should report it.  

And any theory that espouses EITHER brother is either a saint or always an ass doesn't really warrant my energy and definitely (IMO) approaches being a dick. 

[catrox14]

To be clear, I do not think Maeve and Marie were Dean and Sam avatars themselves but rather Robbie Thompson's view of Sam and Dean fans. 

Since Marie's play was her interpretation of the brothers relationship based on Chuck's books up to Swan Song, she could not have accounted for Dean being a demon because she didn't know about it. Thus she she could write Single Man Tear as her version of how she, the author, thinks Sam views Dean as of that time of their story. Which does not mean that is necessarily Marie's personal view of the character of Dean. The meta levels on this episode give me a headache LOL

Marie was a 17 year old girl who was having a bit of a panic attack when she learned her play was unintentionally  harming people.  Sure, Dean gave a 17 year old girl a pep talk but that same 17 year old girl showed courage by going through with the play and playing Sam herself and going up against the monster and killing it herself.  That's the very definition of bravery.  Courage in the face of her fears. I think that's pretty great! Dean helped her but he didn't kill the monster and neither did Sam.

Maeve was behind the scenes. Her role was to help Marie present her play. She worked tech and was the stage manager. She did some important research with Sam. She didn't fight anyone and she didn't have a kill. I never thought Maeve was into either brother and it was only her saying Sam would make a good Dean if he cut his hair that I thought she had any real opinion at all.  Maeve didn't know she was talking to the actual Sam about making a good Dean just like Marie didn't know she was talking to actual!Dean earlier.  

[Aeryn13]

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Maeve was behind the scenes. Her role was to help Marie present her play. She worked tech and was the stage manager. 

I think she was more background material in this episode, the focus was Marie. Which IMO meta-wise works for both their views of fans and the characters themselves. Granted, I`m sure Thompson`s first choice would have been a meta-musical celebrating, being produced by and starring Charlie but at least Sam is his second choice.  

[MysteryGuest]

I have to say that I never felt Fan Fiction favored one brother over the other.  They both got to play a role in the episode, and the girls basically insulted both of them equally by stating that "maybe" they could pass for Bobby and Rufus.  I thought that was pretty funny.

There absolutely are some whacked websites out there where people get downright vicious over their favorites,  but I don't see that happening here.  People have been very respectful from what I've read.  I may favor Dean, but Dean without Sam just wouldn't be the same show.  I hazard to say it wouldn't be a show at all, since it's that brother relationship that made this show what it is.

The writers are very guilty of screwing with both characters.  Most times I think it's just their lazy way of getting from point A to point B in the plot, without much actual thought behind it.  They've also had them say some truly horrible things to one another, usually while under the influence of demon blood, MOC, etc.  But when it's your favorite on the receiving end of those comments, it's not always easy to take.  And those comments tend to stick with you, as evidenced by this topic of conversation.  But I guess you could say that in those instances, the writers were successful.  They have us still discussing certain scenes and remarks literally years later.  

[Myrelle]

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  But I guess you could say that in those instances, the writers were successful.  They have us still discussing certain scenes and remarks literally years later.

Except for the fact that for some the bond was literally destroyed by the inattention to the more important elements that made it a dysfunctionally co-dependent one. Those folks have given up on it and now watch for other reasons(if they still watch at all) and that goes completely against what everyone on this show has always tried so hard to sell. So "successful" is kind of a suspect description in that case and IMO. When a writer fails to get his most important point across that kind of equals failure to me; but yes, if all they're looking for is contention within the fandom than they've succeeded somewhat, but tbh, I read/see less and less discussion every day about this show because of all of the writing redundancies that have stagnated almost everything about it, at this point.

It's sad but I do see them as limping towards the finish line after S11 and the first part of S12. And I'd have to blame Dabb and Singer for that more than anyone else. Carver had his share of miscues, but at least he went/tried for something new and different towards the end of his tenure and I can't help but him give him kudos for that.

I've never been more apathetic about this show than I am right now. That I know.

[sarthaz]

I don't say this to disparage Sam or Jared in any way, because I love Sam and think Jared's a wonderful actor (and by all accounts, a really good dude).  But 12 years have shown me that Jensen's a special kind of brilliant in his talent, and because of that, Dean is the better character for me. (Not trying to start a flame war).  I say that to preface an opinion I've been developing over the years, which is this:

Jensen's brilliant as Dean. Jared's brilliant as not-Sam.

Feel free to list your favorite not-Sam moments here.  What ultimately prompted this post was not-Sam in What Is And What Should Never Be, where he's not exactly not-Sam, but he's definitely not-Sammy.  And a few eps before that, he's disturbing as Hell in Born Under a Bad Sign and hilarious in Dean's recounts in Tall Tales.  I loved what he did as Lucifer, and as much as I hated the whole Gadreel story-line, I felt like Jared totally killed it switching back and forth.  It's a Terrible Life, Swap Meat ... what's your favorite not-Sam performance?

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Jensen's brilliant as Dean. Jared's brilliant as not-Sam.

Oh, I agree with this statement. I think my favorite not-Sam is Born Under A Bad Sign. Maybe because it was the first not-Sam and it surprised me how well Jared pulled it off. I do love a good surprise! ;)

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, sarthaz said:

what's your favorite not-Sam performance?

Does Soulless Sam count as not-Sam? If so that's my favorite one. If not it would definitely be Lucifer Sam from The End.

[FlickChick]

Ditto, DittyDotDot!

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Does Soulless Sam count as not-Sam? If so that's my favorite one. If not it would definitely be Lucifer Sam from The End.

Absolutely!

[whateverhappened]

Since the sixth season is now airing on TNT, I came here to admit that I love soulless Sam. It just made my day to see that I'm not alone. Tbh, I really love the sixth and seventh seasons in general. There's something about Sera Gamble's style of storytelling that works better for me than a lot of what came before or after. I will take the ideas introduced in the sixth and seventh seasons over the endless apocalypse stuff any day. There's something about the way she balances humor and drama that works better for me too. I seriously don't expect anyone to agree with me here because I don't understand it myself, but I just find myself really loving those two seasons. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, whateverhappened said:

There's something about the way she balances humor and drama that works better for me too. I seriously don't expect anyone to agree with me here because I don't understand it myself, but I just find myself really loving those two seasons. 

Welcome, @whateverhappened.*

You will find quite a few of us here who enjoy seasons 6 and/or 7. And I agree with you as to why as well. I really enjoyed the dark humor of season 7 especially. It was great to see some bad guys who were not only evil, but also amusing. I enjoyed the dark wit involved with many of the leviathan characters (Chet, Leviathan Sam and Dean, Joyce and George, Dick Roman) and hallucination Lucifer as well.

* Cool screen name. Any relation to the the Member Berries? ; ). (In case you aren't a South Park watcher, Member Berries are bunches of grape-like characters who go around saying " 'Member X?" or " 'Member Y?": usually with some 70's or 80's reference involved and lamenting some recent remake or reboot or another. The were quite amusing.)

Edited February 2, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Diane]

2 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

Since the sixth season is now airing on TNT, I came here to admit that I love soulless Sam. It just made my day to see that I'm not alone. Tbh, I really love the sixth and seventh seasons in general. There's something about Sera Gamble's style of storytelling that works better for me than a lot of what came before or after. I will take the ideas introduced in the sixth and seventh seasons over the endless apocalypse stuff any day. There's something about the way she balances humor and drama that works better for me too. I seriously don't expect anyone to agree with me here because I don't understand it myself, but I just find myself really loving those two seasons. 

I really enjoyed seasons 6 and 7 too.  Welcome!

[auntvi]

Y'all aren't the only ones who enjoyed s. 6 & 7! I also like Sera Gamble's writing  and producing, her smart point of view. 

If I can remember the name of it I should check out her post SPN series.  Edit: it's The Magicians. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by auntvi

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

Since the sixth season is now airing on TNT, I came here to admit that I love soulless Sam. It just made my day to see that I'm not alone. Tbh, I really love the sixth and seventh seasons in general. There's something about Sera Gamble's style of storytelling that works better for me than a lot of what came before or after. I will take the ideas introduced in the sixth and seventh seasons over the endless apocalypse stuff any day. There's something about the way she balances humor and drama that works better for me too. I seriously don't expect anyone to agree with me here because I don't understand it myself, but I just find myself really loving those two seasons. 

Jared was awesome as Soulless Sam; a perfect mix of amusing and unsettling. Seasons 6 & 7 had a lot of good eps despite that fact that we lost both Bobby and Rufus :^(   Welcome! :^)

Edited February 2, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Katy M]

My unpopular opinions:

1. I like Season 4 Ruby better than Season 3 Ruby and I love both of them.  She's my fave demon.

2. I don't think the alpha vampire is all that great.  HE's fine, but nothing to get excited over.

3. I was fine with Sam not looking for Dean.  I never look for people after they die and it's high time they started learning from their mistakes.  Too bad it didn't stick.

4. I hate it when either of the boys are possessed or turned into demons or whatever.  I like the boys being the boys.

5.  I think it was equally as stupid for Dean to take the mark of cain as it was for Sam to drink demon blood.  Possibly more so because it was 4 (?) seasons later.  Again, learn from your mistakes.

6. I wish Cas would just leave already.  Nothing against Misha, but he's only as powerful as they need him to be for any given epi and he could technically just solve all their problems and bring them back to life every day, so where's the sense of urgency or danger?

7.  I don't think Mary is a terrible, horrible awful person for wanting to get off on her own.  She spent a few weeks with them, she calls and texts.  I get that they didn't have her growing up, but most guys their age don't get to be with their mom much more than that.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually kind of liked Man's Best Friend With Benefits. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I actually kind of liked Man's Best Friend With Benefits. 

It's definitely not one of my favorites, but  I don't have the hatred for it that most people seem to.

[Boopsahoy]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:48 AM, Katy M said:

4. I hate it when either of the boys are possessed or turned into demons or whatever.  I like the boys being the boys

This is how I feel as well.  I think Jensen rocked demon!Dean but I hated every minute of it. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I actually kind of liked Man's Best Friend With Benefits. 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

It's definitely not one of my favorites, but  I don't have the hatred for it that most people seem to.

I didn't like it, but it is a somewhat harmless episode in that it can be easily overlooked. I save my hatred for episodes that tick me off in some way and/or are offensive but are plot relative (so less easy to ignore)... like "Sex and Violence," "Southern Comfort," "Torn and Frayed," "Citizen Fang," and "The Purge."

[SueB]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I actually kind of liked Man's Best Friend With Benefits. 

I couldn't get past the black woman in a collar calling her lover 'master' while simultaneously also being a literal dog.  I usually don't throw an EP out the window for one thing but this one was so tone deaf it killed me.  

 

I actually understand why others found it just 'meh' vs 'supercalifragistic gross'.  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I couldn't get past the black woman in a collar calling her lover 'master' while simultaneously also being a literal dog.

And this is the reason why the episode remains unwatchable to me.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

"Torn and Frayed," "Citizen Fang," and "The Purge."

Aw geez - bad memories, Bad Bad memories!  [must block them out again!]  Shame on you for bringing them back up!  :)

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

I couldn't get past the black woman in a collar calling her lover 'master' while simultaneously also being a literal dog.  I usually don't throw an EP out the window for one thing but this one was so tone deaf it killed me.  

Ohhhh...okay.  I get it.  I guess I just jedi mind blocked that part.  [I'm pretty good at doing that.  Except when someone...ahem - not saying names but look up above...mentions my triggers. :) ]

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

I couldn't get past the black woman in a collar calling her lover 'master' while simultaneously also being a literal dog.  I usually don't throw an EP out the window for one thing but this one was so tone deaf it killed me.  

This and combine it with some gross joke or insinuation that Dean thinks getting it on with a dog is hot.  UGH that's why it's the literal worst ep of the series for me, worse than Bloodlines which I don't even consider SPN.

And I think I hate it more because it actually had some interesting Dean growth in the episode but it's completely lost in the grossness of the whole thing.

[ILoveReading]

My unpopular opinion is that The Purge is one of my favorite episodes.  Not from the story, it was average (although it did give me Donna and I adore Briana).   I loved Jensen's performance and thought it was something special  an advertisement for Jensen's advice to "find what's not on the page." 

Right from the opening shot, sadness, devastation, worry and exhaustion just radiated from Dean.  He was trying to hard to pretend that everything was all right but not quiet managing it.  Trying to keep every emotion tightly wound, and that control slipping during the interview scene where he was almost manic.   The exhaustion doubled after being roofied.  Dean trying convince himself that he does more harm then good and you can see the minute that's all shattered. 

For the record, I did not like Sam's speech.  I will never forgive the show for that line about Dean's sacrifices. 

I also liked Citizen Fang since I love Dean and Benny.

Edited February 13, 2017 by ILoveReading