Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[CluelessDrifter]

20 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

What picture is that?

A better way to explain it might be that you have to keep kills and saves as separate/independent categories the same way you might keep kills and apologies or kills and tying their shoes separate, IMO of course.

Edited May 10, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Demented Daisy]

Again, to each their own.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

How about 'Thanks for supporting me even if you didn't believe in it, because I asked you to (and I've scorned you for not having any faith in me in the past)'. Does Dean deserve that?

Sure! Dean can put it on the mantle next to his "I should have found some way to tell you that you had a crazy-ass angel stowed away in your body before he killed Kevin" apology to Sam or his "I'm sorry I was such a jerk to you while I had the mark of Cain, which maybe I shouldn't have taken so rashly in the first place" apology... oh, wait. : P To be fair, I should also add Sam's non-existent "you were right. I shouldn't have messed with the Book of the Damned" admission, but then we could add "Yeah and I maybe shouldn't have just killed Death that rashly either," and Sam's "I'm sorry I lashed out so harshly when I was angry" (The Purge Speech), etc. etc. etc..

Okay, yes that was snarky, but my unpopular opinion is considering all my examples above - where would Sam's transgression this season even fall in the grand scheme of things here? Compared to all the unsaid stuff above that the brothers haven't apologized for or acknowledged with each other previously, where would something like that even rate. For me it's pretty much small potatoes, though I also understand that miles vary on that.

My second unpopular opinion is that I'm tired of the writers even putting Sam in ridiculous situations* where it looks like he should have to apologize for stuff in the first place. As I've said before, sometimes Dean's instincts are good, but sometimes he's just damn lucky. And sometimes I find it annoying that Sam ends up having to tell Dean he was right just because Dean is lucky.

"Mother's Little Helper" is a good example. In my opinion, Sam had a reason to be concerned about Dean's obsessive behavior concerning Abaddon and how he was acting due to the mark of Cain, but by the end of the episode, Sam's having to admit that he was wrong - "You were right" - just because Dean is lucky, and things actually are all of a sudden getting worse after all on the Abaddon front (even though it still doesn't really excuse his behavior about taking it without thinking). But instead, the writers somehow flip the situation on its head so that Sam ends up being in the wrong - usually by making him a jerk and/or by having him make an even worse decision/mistake - and Dean just pretty much slips on by on his previous bad decisions, because he looks better in comparison. Season 10 was kinda set up the same way in regards to the Gadreel situation, because Sam with the Book of the Damned ended up being worse.

For me, it's kind of annoying that even when Dean should be wrong... he's still right (example: killing Death). Not that I want Dean to be wrong exactly... I just don't need onscreen accolades from other characters to back up what the action/plot is already showing. It's already almost, but not quite bordering on Mary Sue territory how lucky/right Dean is** about these things lately. Having other characters openly praise him for it, to me, will start to tip it in that direction.

* I say ridiculous, because in my opinion Sam's being impressed by the BMoL enough to say "sign me up!" after what happened in "The Raid" only makes sense if he was brain damaged by a huge chunk of plotonium. For me, it defies our earth logic (or most kinds of logic), and so was done mainly so Sam would look less intuitive next to Dean's skepticism.

** I remember some posts a few months ago where some of us were comparing Dean's and Sam's luck that usually ended up with Sam barely missing a dog on the way to cash in a lottery ticket that he won but actually turned out to be a hoax, and when Sam got there to cash the ticket, the hoaxsters instead beat him up... and then finished off the dog. Amused me greatly. *Karen Walker voice* "It's funny 'cuz it's true."

Edited May 10, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Demented Daisy]

Some of the magic has definitely gone out of the show -- and I mean that literally.  Remember when Sam and Dean used to perform rituals to summon Crowley?  Now they just whip out their cell phones.  *sigh*

It doesn't make me bitter, but it does make me sad.

[Pondlass1]

I’m new to this site, but you guys do make me smile sometimes.

You can buy a lot of things – but you can’t buy chemistry. Whoever cast Jensen and Jared in these roles (and apparently there were no other contenders) should be given a gold star.  Cuz it works. Chemistry in truckloads. We totally buy these guys as brothers – and they’ve even become brothers off-screen.

The relationship between the brothers Winchester set amid a supernatural backdrop has evolved into one of the most complex and fascinating on TV today.  It's the greatest love story of all. More so than any TV romantic pairing I’d say. 

And then there are us divided fans.  Half see through a Dean lens.  The other half view through their Sam lens.  And never the twain shall meet.  We pretty much argue about nothing else. Dean is a leader, Sam is a follower – that strain has followed throughout the series (but then I'm a Dean girl and wrong in the eyes of a Sam girl).

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

Anyway, this beautiful but painfully knotted brother love is the main reason the show is going into its 13th season (IMO).   It certainly ain't the writing! :(

[Idahoforspn]

30 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I’m new to this site, but you guys do make me smile sometimes.

You can buy a lot of things – but you can’t buy chemistry. Whoever cast Jensen and Jared in these roles (and apparently there were no other contenders) should be given a gold star.  Cuz it works. Chemistry in truckloads. We totally buy these guys as brothers – and they’ve even become brothers off-screen.

The relationship between the brothers Winchester set amid a supernatural backdrop has evolved into one of the most complex and fascinating on TV today.  It's the greatest love story of all. More so than any TV romantic pairing I’d say. 

And then there are us divided fans.  Half see through a Dean lens.  The other half view through their Sam lens.  And never the twain shall meet.  We pretty much argue about nothing else. Dean is a leader, Sam is a follower – that strain has followed throughout the series (but then I'm a Dean girl and wrong in the eyes of a Sam girl).

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

 

Never having been involved in a fandom before, and this is my only one ever, the extremes have been surprising to me. Guess I was a little naive.

[SueB]

50 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

Hi, my name is SueB and I adore BOTH brothers. I'm not sure you know me well enough to call me a liar. 

I LOATHE the petty Sam vs Dean battles. 

[Demented Daisy]

45 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

And then there are us divided fans.  Half see through a Dean lens.  The other half view through their Sam lens.  And never the twain shall meet.  We pretty much argue about nothing else. Dean is a leader, Sam is a follower – that strain has followed throughout the series (but then I'm a Dean girl and wrong in the eyes of a Sam girl).

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

 

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Never having been involved in a fandom before, and this is my only one ever, the extremes have been surprising to me. Guess I was a little naive.

*sigh*  You really should take some time and read through the various threads.  Not necessarily all of them (over 200 episode threads, yike-a-roonies!), but I really think it would help to get a feel of the various posters around here.

I heartily disagree that there aren't "bi-bro" (but not "bros only") fans.  Quite a few of us distinguish ourselves that way and I feel our postings reflect that position.  While I have slightly more affinity for Dean than Sam, I do not believe that either character has been intentionally written to prop the other up.

Call it an unpopular opinion if you like, but I believe that Sam and Dean are flawed heroes -- which is why I like them!  I don't want to watch a show about characters that always win, that never lose a fight.  I don't want to see characters that always make the right decision.  How dull would that be?  How do they learn, how do they grow, if they are not allowed (within the narrative) to make mistakes?

[Diane]

54 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Hi, my name is SueB and I adore BOTH brothers. I'm not sure you know me well enough to call me a liar. 

I LOATHE the petty Sam vs Dean battles. 

 

Hi my name is Diane, nice to meet you. I also love both brothers and absoultly can't stand the Sam vs. Dean battles too. Drives me nuts.

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Call it an unpopular opinion if you like, but I believe that Sam and Dean are flawed heroes -- which is why I like them!  I don't want to watch a show about characters that always win, that never lose a fight.  I don't want to see characters that always make the right decision.  How dull would that be?  How do they learn, how do they grow, if they are not allowed (within the narrative) to make mistakes?

Wouldn't that be the most boring show ever, if they were perfect.  I agree definitely flawed heroes, but that is why I love them.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

Hi, I also adore both brothers, though I'm slightly more Sam-leaning most days.  If you see me mostly defending Sam, it's because it seems like there's been an awful lot of Sam-bashing on this forum recently.  If that would stop, so would a lot of my posts.  :)  If it switched over to Dean-bashing, you'd see me defending him too.  But so far, that hasn't been a problem.  

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hi, I also adore both brothers, though I'm slightly more Sam-leaning most days.  If you see me mostly defending Sam, it's because it seems like there's been an awful lot of Sam-bashing on this forum recently.  If that would stop, so would a lot of my posts.  :)  If it switched over to Dean-bashing, you'd see me defending him too.  But so far, that hasn't been a problem.  

See, I feel the same way.  I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of hating Dean, simply because I've defended Sam on some isuse.  But, I really do love them both.  I just haven't seen Dean needing a lot of defending.  Plus, I've tried (though not always successfully because it's a sickness of some sort) to stay out of Sam/Dean conversations.

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Hi, my name is SueB and I adore BOTH brothers. I'm not sure you know me well enough to call me a liar. 

I LOATHE the petty Sam vs Dean battles. 

I can vouch for this wholeheartedly. So much so that when I write up some of my arguments, I guiltily think "SueB would be so disappointed in me..." but because I'm also somewhat evil, I then hit "Submit Reply" anyway. Because I'm somewhat evil. And sometimes lack willpower.

42 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And then there are us divided fans.  Half see through a Dean lens.  The other half view through their Sam lens.  And never the twain shall meet.  We pretty much argue about nothing else. Dean is a leader, Sam is a follower – that strain has followed throughout the series (but then I'm a Dean girl and wrong in the eyes of a Sam girl).

I love Dean, despite being Sam-leaning. However, I have no problem agreeing that Dean is the leader. Weirdly, I often use it as an argument for Sam, because Sam is sometimes accused of wanting to boss Dean around, and I don't see that at all. I actually think Sam's fine with and often prefers following Dean's lead. And I like him that way. I don't think it makes him any less of a person. And like @Demented Daisy, I like my characters flawed. I don't have to have Sam perfect or see him through rose-colored glasses.

I wish I could be even more like Demented, though, and say that I don't think the writing is sometimes biased, but I'll admit my flaw and say that sometimes I can't... but for me, my ire in that regard is mostly directed towards Carver. I have (very specific) issues with season 4, but I thought they were balanced out/fixed by season 5, so I was good. It was the Carver era that ruined it for me made me look at the show differently...

And apparently, I'm also a debater at heart. When I see arguments for one side, I tend to want to say "but, but what about..." especially if it's defending my somewhat favorite and/or the underdog. I so understand @RulerofallIsurvey and @Katy M! But I also know that I should try harder to abstain...

@SueB and @Demented Daisy have inspired me to try harder in this regard. Now we'll see if I can be more like Sam now rather than Sam in season 4, and I can keep from falling off the wagon. Probably not. : ( 

P.S. Also be aware that I am a weirdo and will sometimes have divergent opinions that might not seem to fit with the rest of my opinions.

I'm also apparently long-winded. ; )

[SueB]

If I knew how to make heart-eyes, I'd make heart-eyes at you @AwesomO4000 

We love you and you are not evil.  

[Demented Daisy]

Aww, you're making me blush, @AwesomO4000.  ;-)

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I wish I could be even more like Demented, though, and say that I don't think the writing is sometimes biased, but I'll admit my flaw and say that sometimes I can't... but for me, my ire in that regard is mostly directed towards Carver.

A viewpoint I completely understand, for what it's worth.  I hated what Carver did with Sam in S8... but then, I hated that he gave us Demon Dean, too.  That's something I can never forgive him for.

So, you see, when I say that I don't think that Carver necessarily intentionally threw either character under the bus, I'm referring to the specific instance of making the other look better.  I believe that Carver wrote for the show with no regard for what the fans might think of what he was doing.  If anything, I think his POV was closer to something a Marvel comics executive said a few years ago:

 

Of course, I could quite easily be wrong.  :-)

 

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

We love you and you are not evil.

Well, maybe just a little evil.  From me, you really should consider that a compliment.  ;-)

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, come on, @SueB, just a little bit evil? Please?... Damn - *Has to admit to being a bit of pushover, too.*

Wait! at least I'm stubborn! *Ignores the irony that those two things conflict.*

Edited to add:

Quote

Well, maybe just a little evil.

Yay!

Edited May 11, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

Oh, I'll give you stubborn. :)

[Diane]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can vouch for this wholeheartedly. So much so that when I write up some of my arguments, I guiltily think "SueB would be so disappointed in me..." but because I'm also somewhat evil, I then hit "Submit Reply" anyway. Because I'm somewhat evil. And sometimes lack willpower.

I love Dean, despite being Sam-leaning. However, I have no problem agreeing that Dean is the leader. Weirdly, I often use it as an argument for Sam, because Sam is sometimes accused of wanting to boss Dean around, and I don't see that at all. I actually think Sam's fine with and often prefers following Dean's lead. And I like him that way. I don't think it makes him any less of a person. And like @Demented Daisy, I like my characters flawed. I don't have to have Sam perfect or see him through rose-colored glasses.

I wish I could be even more like Demented, though, and say that I don't think the writing is sometimes biased, but I'll admit my flaw and say that sometimes I can't... but for me, my ire in that regard is mostly directed towards Carver. I have (very specific) issues with season 4, but I thought they were balanced out/fixed by season 5, so I was good. It was the Carver era that ruined it for me made me look at the show differently...

And apparently, I'm also a debater at heart. When I see arguments for one side, I tend to want to say "but, but what about..." especially if it's defending my somewhat favorite and/or the underdog. I so understand @RulerofallIsurvey and @Katy M! But I also know that I should try harder to abstain...

@SueB and @Demented Daisy have inspired me to try harder in this regard. Now we'll see if I can be more like Sam now rather than Sam in season 4, and I can keep from falling off the wagon. Probably not. : ( 

P.S. Also be aware that I am a weirdo and will sometimes have divergent opinions that might not seem to fit with the rest of my opinions.

I'm also apparently long-winded. ; )

I wish I better at not getting into the debates, I keep telling myself do not respond, do not respond and then someone else takes over and I do anyway.  I am going to try to be better.  (bolding is mine) That is why we love you!

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

What SueB, Demented Daisy and Diane said. In fact, until recently I'd say this board was fairly a balanced sampling of all the fan factions. It would be nice to regain that balance, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When I see arguments for one side, I tend to want to say "but, but what about..." especially if it's defending my somewhat favorite and/or the underdog.

Hee hee.  

When in this world the headlines read
Of those whose hearts are filled with greed
Who rob and steal from those who need
To right this wrong with blinding speed
Goes Underdog! Underdog! Underdog! Underdog!
Speed of lightning, roar of thunder
Fighting all who rob or plunder 
*Underdog!* Underdog! *Underdog!*

(My fave superhero!)

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

P.S. Also be aware that I am a weirdo and will sometimes have divergent opinions that might not seem to fit with the rest of my opinions.

Weirdos welcome! ;)

[Diane]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Weirdos welcome! ;)

Heck, Weirdos Unite!!!

[Demented Daisy]

As I've said before, weird is what we do.  ;-)

[Idahoforspn]

On 5/10/2017 at 0:24 PM, CluelessDrifter said:

Hey Demented Daisy,

So, I took a crack at Season 1.  Instead of plans, I counted who figured out what they were hunting, and then out of interest who said it first, because when they're brainstorming and figure it out together, only one gets the line to reveal what they're hunting.  If they're told by someone else, like Missouri or John, they found out together, but neither said it first.  The 3rd party did.  A kill is a kill, but a save is a save, so if killing something saves somebody in direct peril, it's counted as both a kill and a save.  To cut it down to one or the other is limiting and paints a different picture, I think.  Also, if the brother-in-peril's direct actions save someone else as well as him, that's considered a save.  If one brother just saves himself, it doesn't count as a save. An incident of saving is counted as 1, so if a plane full of people are saved, that's one incident.

Here are my numbers, and I'll break them down, so you can see how I got them:

Sam - Figured out the monster/ cause of the case in question - 8 (1.01, 1.02, 1.07, 1.14, 1.15 1.17, 1.19, 1.21*)

* - Sam's vision let him know the YED was in Salvation for Rosie - the cause of the case.

Sam - Said what the monster/ cause of the case was 1st - 11 (1.01, 1.02, 1.04, 1.06, 1.07, 1.08**, 1.14, 1.15, 1.17, 1.19, 1.21)

** cursed land, so not a monster, but it was the cause for the case

Sam - Got the kill - 1 (1.01 - He took the spirit where he knew it would be destroyed, that counts as a kill in my book, because he used what he had at his disposal to kill it; whereas with the Minster's wife in Faith, he didn't intend for the reaper to kill the Minister's wife.  It'd be like him getting the kill in the Benders, because he let Kathleen out of her cage)

Sam - Got the save - 11 (1.02 - Dean, Haley, Tom in lair; 1.04 - plane; 1.07 - Reverend; 1.11 - Dean & Emily; 1.12 - kids from rawhead hunt, Dean from reaper; 1.15 - Kathleen during fight in barn; 1.16 - tipped the alter to save Dean & himself, lit the flare that saved Dean, John, and Sam; 1.17 - Harry & Ed during the last fight with the tulpa; 1.22 - getting the Colt and shooting John/YED in the leg, but not killing him, saved Dean and John from the YED)

Dean - Figured out the monster in question - 5 (1.05, 1.10, 1.11, 1.13, 1.22 - Figured out John was possessed)

Dean - Said what the monster/case was 1st - 7 (1.03, 1.05, 1.10, 1.11, 1.13, 1.18, 1.22)

Dean -  Got the kill - 10 (1.02 - wendigo; 1.05 - Bloody Mary spirit; 1.06 - shapeshifter; 1.07 - Hook Man spirit; 1.10 - Dr. Ellicott; 1.12 - rawhead; 1.18 - shtriga; 1.19 - little girl spirit; 1.20 - vampire at the barn; 1.22 - demon he shoots with the Colt)

Dean -  Got the save - 13 (1.01 - Sam with the WiW, Sam at Stanford fire; 1.03 - Lucas; 1.05 - Sam from Bloody Mary; 1.06 - Sam from shapeshifter!Dean; 1.07 - Sam & Lori from the Hook Man; 1.09 - Sam from the poltergeist electrical cord; 1.11 - the couple in the orchard; 1.12 - Layla's first death replacement; 1.17 - Sam after Sam saved Harry & Ed; 1.18 - Adult Sam from shtriga; 1.20 - we hear Sam is with Dean from John, but we only see Dean saving the people in the barn; 1.22 - Sam from Meg's brother)

Figured out the monster in question together - 7 (1.03, 1.04, 1.06, 1.08, 1.12, 1.16, 1.18)

Said what the monster was together - 2, and they were both episodes with someone controlling the 'monster' (1.12 - Dean said reaper first, but Sam said the necklace was controlling it; 1.16 - Dean says Meg is summoning the daevas, and Sam says Meg is working with The Demon)

Got the kill together - 3 (1.13 - the ghost truck; 1.19 - the spirit of the father haunting the painting; 1.22 - Meg Masters - She was on demon life support.  The exorcism pulled the plug on that)

Got the save together - 10 (1.02 - the Collins family in the mines after they're out of the lair; 1.03 - Andrea - Dean went back, kicked in the door, and took care of Lucas, while Sam pulled Andrea out of the tub; 1.08 - the Pike family; 1.09 - Jenny and her kids; 1.14 - Max's Step-Mom in the kitchen; 1.18 - Michael from the shtriga; 1.19 - Sarah; 1.20 - John from Luther; 1.21 - Monica/Holden/Rosie; 1.22 - Meg Masters - They gave her life back to her even though it didn't last for very long, and she said 'thank you,' so she saw it as a save)

Were told what the monster was together - 2 (1.09, 1.20) 

No kills or they weren't the ones who killed - 10 (1.03 - Jake sacrificed himself to stop the spirit; 1.04 - Exorcism; 1.08 - They helped the family survive the curse, but didn't lift it or have to kill anyone/thing; 1.09 - Mary got rid of the poltergeist; 1.11 - Emily torched the scarecrow; 1.14 - Max used the gun on himself; 1.15 - Kathleen killed Pa Bender; 1.16 - Meg lived to see another day as did her daevas; 1.17 - The Tulpa wasn't killed; 1.21 - Nothing was killed)

No saves - 2 (1.10***, 1.13)

*** Dean saves himself from Sam and Dr. Elicott, and Kat and Gavin weren't in peril throughout (ever came into contact with Dr. Ellicott, the threat), so neither gets credit for a save by my definition.  

Thank you for this. These are interesting too. PS.  I don't think we need to start the conversation again. I just wanted to recognize the effort that was put forth here. Demented Daisy did a massive amount of work too. Thank you both for your efforts.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hi, I also adore both brothers, though I'm slightly more Sam-leaning most days.  If you see me mostly defending Sam, it's because it seems like there's been an awful lot of Sam-bashing on this forum recently.  If that would stop, so would a lot of my posts.  :)  If it switched over to Dean-bashing, you'd see me defending him too.  But so far, that hasn't been a problem.  

This is pretty much me.  Though I think I always prefer Sam, I do really like Dean as well.  Most of my posts in the debates are attempting to defend Sam as well.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I love Dean, despite being Sam-leaning. However, I have no problem agreeing that Dean is the leader. Weirdly, I often use it as an argument for Sam, because Sam is sometimes accused of wanting to boss Dean around, and I don't see that at all. I actually think Sam's fine with and often prefers following Dean's lead. And I like him that way. I don't think it makes him any less of a person. And like @Demented Daisy, I like my characters flawed. I don't have to have Sam perfect or see him through rose-colored glasses.

And apparently, I'm also a debater at heart. When I see arguments for one side, I tend to want to say "but, but what about..." especially if it's defending my somewhat favorite and/or the underdog. I so understand @RulerofallIsurvey and @Katy M! But I also know that I should try harder to abstain...

@SueB and @Demented Daisy have inspired me to try harder in this regard. Now we'll see if I can be more like Sam now rather than Sam in season 4, and I can keep from falling off the wagon. Probably not. : ( 

I agree with all of these points.  The bolded part I can definitely relate to. For some reason, I think I like a good debate. Though I don't often start them, I do feel the need to chime in and say "I don't quite see it that way" and maybe to share another point of view to other's posts.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Reganne

[MysteryGuest]

I admittedly have a preference for Dean, but I absolutely like Sam, as well.  There is no show without both brothers and their relationship.  It's what drew me from day one and it's the reason I'm still here, even if the writing drives me nuts sometimes.  I don't normally get into the brother debates too much.  My issues are pretty much always with the writers, since they're the ones who make the brothers do and say the things that drive us crazy.   I'm not sure I'll ever forgive them for what they did to Sam in season 8.  

We may all lean more toward one brother over the other, but if you don't have a fondness for both characters, it's going to be an awfully difficult show to enjoy, IMO.

Edited May 11, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Mick Lady]

As far as brother vs brother fandom, I love Crowley!

But I've been around long enough, (here and on TWoP) to know where everyone stands.

But I like the posters here best of all! No matter who they root for. With everything being said, we all love Supernatural! Isn't that what matters most?

[Mick Lady]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can vouch for this wholeheartedly. So much so that when I write up some of my arguments, I guiltily think "SueB would be so disappointed in me..." but because I'm also somewhat evil, I then hit "Submit Reply" anyway. Because I'm somewhat evil. And sometimes lack willpower.

I love Dean, despite being Sam-leaning. However, I have no problem agreeing that Dean is the leader. Weirdly, I often use it as an argument for Sam, because Sam is sometimes accused of wanting to boss Dean around, and I don't see that at all. I actually think Sam's fine with and often prefers following Dean's lead. And I like him that way. I don't think it makes him any less of a person. And like @Demented Daisy, I like my characters flawed. I don't have to have Sam perfect or see him through rose-colored glasses.

I wish I could be even more like Demented, though, and say that I don't think the writing is sometimes biased, but I'll admit my flaw and say that sometimes I can't... but for me, my ire in that regard is mostly directed towards Carver. I have (very specific) issues with season 4, but I thought they were balanced out/fixed by season 5, so I was good. It was the Carver era that ruined it for me made me look at the show differently...

And apparently, I'm also a debater at heart. When I see arguments for one side, I tend to want to say "but, but what about..." especially if it's defending my somewhat favorite and/or the underdog. I so understand @RulerofallIsurvey and @Katy M! But I also know that I should try harder to abstain...

@SueB and @Demented Daisy have inspired me to try harder in this regard. Now we'll see if I can be more like Sam now rather than Sam in season 4, and I can keep from falling off the wagon. Probably not. : ( 

P.S. Also be aware that I am a weirdo and will sometimes have divergent opinions that might not seem to fit with the rest of my opinions.

I'm also apparently long-winded. ; )

I agree, you're weird. Very weird! But I love you, and your FF is the best! (hint ,hint...)

[companionenvy]

Back to bitterness to mourn Eileen, yet another character the show completely wasted by going the most boring route possible and killing her off.

But hey, its OK, because Crowley and Lucifer will live to fight another day. So we've got that going for us.

[catrox14]

Eileen's death was disgustingly brutal.  I was upset about Tasha and Alicia's deaths but the were quick and dirty kills. Terrible yes, but not brutal for the sake of brutality.

They didn't need to show Eileen being tossed around like a ragdoll. I just hate this so much.  It was too much. Just like showing Charlie in the bathtub..

Oddly, both Charlie and Eileen were Robbie Thompson characters. I'm worried about Mildred now too. Berens already killed off Cain. 

Whose left from Robbie's cast of characters?

[flyinghigh]

5 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

With everything being said, we all love Supernatural! Isn't that what matters most?

+1

[goldy]

20 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

I don't care if you believe it or not but I honestly love BOTH Sam and Dean. I don't normally get involved in the many Sam vs. Dean debates around the fandom (and recently in this forum that used to be rather balanced) but if I did, it would probably be for Sam, not because I like him more than Dean but because I feel like people are being incredibly unfair to the character.

More so, I feel like the Sam vs. Dean debates that I've seen recently are very petty and are over issues that I consider minor and silly (who will get more screen time, who will get to kill the monster this week, who should apologize to who etc). Sam and Dean are amazing characters, they're smart and brave and while they don't always do the right thing and sometimes end up hurting one another, they still love each other dearly! and I love that about them! and on top of that we got so lucky that the actors that play them are actully real friends in real life. I don't think it can get any better that that, which is why I will never understand all the pointless "fighting". 

[mertensia]

21 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

Folks that purport they're for BOTH brothers... don't believe it!

Well, you don't have to, after all. But still, we exist regardless.

[flyinghigh]

So. If I want to whine and rant, this is the place? I can scream to my heart's content, without being judged???

If I am at the wrong place, please guide this frustrated SPN fan in the right direction.

I FINISHED WATCHING TODAY'S EPISODE!! 

And, I have no words for it. Sam and Dean are smart, experienced and resourceful hunters. Their bunker is full of tracking devices - BMoL came with a couple of suitcases, to take pics? -  and they are now searching for them? The redundant- as--in-previous-century device, as big as it possibly can be - is stuck right next to their emergency gun??

Oh. Thank Chuck, they found THE DEVICE. 

I know I should be grateful. At least they realized that the bunker, which every one can waltz through- demon, angels and god's sister alike, and for which BMoL have a key, could have been compromised. 

Oh. But they took that Lady whatever-her-name-is there. To interrogate, I suppose. And in Baby, no less!!

Maybe someday Baby will become like Herbie and throw out people she knows are wicked. See, I am hopeful.

Mary is gone case. The other day I was thinking about my favourite episodes and I realized I don't even want to even think about putting WIAWSNB from season 2 anywhere near my favourite episode list. Present Mary has ruined that episode for me.

Lucifer - I have no idea what is so facinating about this characters which appeals so much to the writers or show runner or who-so-ever is responsible for him being still  - there - in the series. 

I think I am still foaming. My pulse is slightly better. So thank you for listening to me.

[Demented Daisy]

Unpopular (possibly) opinion alert!  Standard disclaimers.

I am so glad that S12 has been light on the whole "bro bond" story.  These men are almost 40 years old.  They've been working together for a dozen years.  I have zero interest in seeing more stories of betrayal or lies or "I'll save you no matter what!"

I think the sheer fact that there has been no overt "bro bond" story is a testament to how strong their bond actually is.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Unpopular (possibly) opinion alert!  Standard disclaimers.

I am so glad that S12 has been light on the whole "bro bond" story.  These men are almost 40 years old.  They've been working together for a dozen years.  I have zero interest in seeing more stories of betrayal or lies or "I'll save you no matter what!"

I think the sheer fact that there has been no overt "bro bond" story is a testament to how strong their bond actually is.

I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I do agree with complaints that some moments between them have been underwhelming this season. The biggest example of this being the lacklustre response to Sam's kidnapping and the immediate aftermath. 

On the other hand, I definitely do not miss the brother angst so favoured by Carver during seasons 8-10 nor do I miss the constant eye roll worthy declarations of how the other comes first! I was getting to a point of "we get it show! They care about each other! I'm not an idiot". 

So I'd say overall I'd like to see a few more subtle brotherly moments between them, but definitely not a return to the over the top melodrama of earlier seasons. 

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I do agree with complaints that some moments between them have been underwhelming this season. The biggest example of this being the lacklustre response to Sam's kidnapping and the immediate aftermath. 

On the other hand, I definitely do not miss the brother angst so favoured by Carver during seasons 8-10 nor do I miss the constant eye roll worthy declarations of how the other comes first! I was getting to a point of "we get it show! They care about each other! I'm not an idiot". 

So I'd say overall I'd like to see a few more subtle brotherly moments between them, but definitely not a return to the over the top melodrama of earlier seasons. 

Yeah, it would definitely be terrible and impossible to grasp logically, if they suddenly decided to stop caring for one another.  However, they obviously cared in Seasons 1 and 2, without having to make big speeches about it.  I guess I understand that once one of them (and then both of them) died and came back to live it kind of upped the ante for both of them.  But, yeah, we get it.

[auntvi]

57 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I am so glad that S12 has been light on the whole "bro bond" story.  These men are almost 40 years old.  They've been working together for a dozen years.  I have zero interest in seeing more stories of betrayal or lies or "I'll save you no matter what!"

I think some miss the good ole days in the early seasons when they were 20 somethings. But it makes sense to adjust the way they talk/act now that they're approaching middle age [intentional exaggeration]. However, and this is off the top of my head, it seems like they just talked more in the first half of this season. It would be more interesting if they talked more about what each is thinking, not in a bromancey way, but to give us some insight into the characters. Like the way they talked to each other in Baby last season.

On the other hand I'm with you guys, happy to leave the season 8-10 angst behind.

edit: I'm not talking about the cursory dialogue at the beginning of almost every episode, "Have you heard from Cas? or "Have you heard from Mom" followed by the now standard exposition of the MOTW.

Edited May 16, 2017 by auntvi

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I am so glad that S12 has been light on the whole "bro bond" story.  These men are almost 40 years old.  They've been working together for a dozen years.  I have zero interest in seeing more stories of betrayal or lies or "I'll save you no matter what!"

I think the sheer fact that there has been no overt "bro bond" story is a testament to how strong their bond actually is.

I think you are misunderstanding the complaints of the brothers bond fans. I don't think ANY fan of the brothers band actually wants to go back to the awful 'created for dramatic effect', ooc bro angst melodrama so favoured by Carver (start of s8, second half of s9 etc). I don't want bro angst or conflict. That is the polar opposite of what I want to watch. When Dabb said the brothers would be on the same page this season I was thrilled.

But we can have the lack of drama / angst / conflict you are welcoming without completely taking for granted and failing to showcase in any meaningful way what is for many the key draw of the show i.e. the strong bond between Sam and Dean. It is SOOO easy to do. Here are some suggestions for how things could have gone slightly differently in s12 yet could have hugely improved this aspect;

1) Sam's kidnapping and rescue. Just showing more concern and active involvement in the search from Dean, some recognition in the script that Sam believed his brother to be dead so had lost hope, and a proper reunion that acknowledged all that would have made all the difference.

2) The Sam & Dean in prison ep. Some emotional response to seeing each other for the first time after weeks of seemingly hopeless isolation. Some onscreen debate over who was going to honour the deal. Was that too much to ask?

3) A few more scenes of domestic banter sprinkled around like the ironing Sam's shirts with beer joke

4) A couple of shots / scenes where Mary realises how close her sons are, how her absence affected their relationship and their lives and what they have been through to stay together / save each other.

5) Some sympathy / comfort for Sam from Dean when Eileen was killed

6) Ditch the whole 'Sam siding with Mary and the BMoL and hiding it' nonsense.

Tiny things that would have allowed the plot to unfold exactly as it has but with a proper recognition of how much these brothers mean to each other. Yes of course we know that but the writers shouldn't take that for granted and it only requires a bit more attention. 

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

However, and this is off the top of my head, it seems like they just talked more in the first half of this season. It would be more interesting if they talked more about what each is thinking, not in a bromancey way, but to give us some insight into the characters. Like the way they talked to each other in Baby last season.

Do you mean in the first half of the series? If so I definitely agree that they did. In fact when you rewatch it is really noticeable. A return to that would be most welcome. e.g. would a heartfelt conversation between Dean and Sam about how they felt that Mary was back have been beyond the wit of these writers?

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Here are some suggestions for how things could have gone slightly differently in s12 yet could have hugely improved this aspect;

*snip*

Tiny things that would have allowed the plot to unfold exactly as it has but with a proper recognition of how much these brothers mean to each other. Yes of course we know that but the writers shouldn't take that for granted and it only requires a bit more attention.

 

Personally, I don't need to see any of that.  Which was the point of my post.  To say what I don't need to see.  :-)

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Personally, I don't need to see any of that.  Which was the point of my post.  To say what I don't need to see.  :-)

I assume then that you watch for other things which of course is fine. But would those tiny changes I suggested have actively detracted from your enjoyment? If not, and you have enjoyed everything else, then why not tick a few more boxes for people - particularly when not to to do that requires the writers to depict the brothers as ooc (the reunion in ep 2 being the most egregious example of this).

My point was that it doesn't have to be a zero sum game. It is quite easy to keep most factions of the fandom happy - and those who value the brothers bond are a pretty big faction who are pretty dissatisfied this year.

[Demented Daisy]

Just now, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I assume then that you watch for other things which of course is fine. But would those tiny changes I suggested have actively detracted from your enjoyment? If not, and you have enjoyed everything else, then why not tick a few more boxes for people - particularly when not to to do that requires the writers to depict the brothers as ooc (the reunion in ep 2 being the most egregious example of this).

My point was that it doesn't have to be a zero sum game. It is quite easy to keep most factions of the fandom happy - and those who value the brothers bond are a pretty big faction who are pretty dissatisfied this year.

I watch for all kinds of reasons.  Would it have detracted?  Possibly.  Again, that was the point of my original post -- I don't need to see it any more.  I know.  I've watched live since season 3.  Almost a decade of angst is more than enough.  I was good after season 5.

As for the part I bolded -- I'm going to strongly disagree.  And leave it at that.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

But would those tiny changes I suggested have actively detracted from your enjoyment?

I'm not the Demented One--well, I'm demented, but that's not my name--but yes, it very well could've actively detracted from my enjoyment. Depends on whether those things actually served story or were there just to appease fans. I already know how strong their bond is, so unless it's important to the story at hand, I really don't need them to remind me of it every episode.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

But would those tiny changes I suggested have actively detracted from your enjoyment?

Honestly not trying to be contrary here, but to me, things like you're suggesting would likely have felt like the show pandering/condescending to the audience rather than something organic to the characters/story, and yeah, that would have detracted.

I actually thought that the show did a very good job highlighting how close Sam and Dean are, without it feeling artificial or awkward, when the show showed them hunting together (and just generally interacting) like such a well-oiled machine. And how excluded witnessing that made Mary feel, too. The best example of that was probably in The Foundry. But Sam and Dean have been on the same page all year IMO -- and I've really liked that.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Honestly not trying to be contrary here, but to me, things like you're suggesting would likely have felt like the show pandering/condescending to the audience rather than something organic to the characters/story, and yeah, that would have detracted.

I literally couldn't disagree more strongly. What of any of the things I listed would have been 'pandering' or 'condescending'? Just because something pleases people or is what they want to see doesn't automatically make it 'pandering' unless it is out of character or not realistic. Nothing I suggested would have fallen into that definition. 

So you don't think after everything that they had been through, including Sam believing Dean to be dead, Sam being through torture, and Dean unable to find Sam for days, that they might have hugged when Dean found Sam? If that was me and my sister in that situation we would hug. Thats what people who love each other, and who are in a moment of heightened emotions; fear, pain, joy, relief etc do. If you don't think that would have been organic, natural and in character then I can only assume you think the same about every other time they have hugged on the show which means you have a VERY different idea of the show than I do. 

I agree they have been on the same page and I have appreciated that because I hate all the fake bro angst that passed for 'good storylines' in Carver's book, but it is not enough for me. I have felt the opposite to your 'pandering' perspective. I have felt that there have been a number of moments that were so crying out for more emotion between the brothers that I felt the writers were actively writing against the relationship. No idea why as, regardless of your take to which you are perfectly entitled, the brothers bond is one of (I would argue THE) main draw of the show.

[Goldmoon]

Quote

I actually thought that the show did a very good job highlighting how close Sam and Dean are, without it feeling artificial or awkward, when the show showed them hunting together (and just generally interacting) like such a well-oiled machine.

Rue said the above. I haven't seen this in season 12, other than the info that Dean had gone swimming sans suit in the hotel pool.  Not enough casual interaction that makes me smile.  I  just watched Hibbing 911 from season 10.  After the boys interrogated the sheriff and his deputy, Sam cautioned Dean to not get so protective of his fake FBI job.  Dean said, "This badge means something!" completely seriously and Sam said, "I made it at Kinko's" Then Dean says, "you should be proud of that" while walking away.  This is one of my favorite dialog exchanges ever.  Did we need the info that the badges were made at Kinko's?  Not really, but it was a 20 second piece of banter that highlighted the boys' camaraderie and was very funny, too, especially with the actors' delivery.  THIS is what I want to see more of.  Throwaway moments that bring me into the personal orbit of the character's sense of humor.  The show is so angst-ridden that these little touches remind me why I started watching in the first place.

[catrox14]

I think it's a sticky wicket and it's different for every viewer what constitutes 'pandering' or 'condescending'  to a particular section of viewers.

IMO, it's not yet clear why Sam and Dean didn't have an on-screen hug in the opening episodes.  I can actually find an in-story reason why maybe we didn't see that and it goes to Sam's trauma.

Often people who are coming out of that kind of trauma including sexual abuse, which did happen to Sam, do not want to be touched. I'm not saying that is what happened in that case, but if the show was trying to show how much shock and trauma Sam was experiencing, maybe that the actors and director made a choice on set to not do it. Maybe the looks exchanged, a comforting touch on the shoulder, a reassuring look was considered more appropriate to that particular situation.  I really don't know but I think it  is a reasonable in-story reason for a hug to not have happened.  Or maybe a hug was filmed and was cut. I really don't know. 

I don't think it's exclusion was indicative of any pandering or intentionally playing down the brothers relationship. But that's just my opinion.

[Aeryn13]

I`m not a fan of the mythic bro-bond but even I imagined more of a reaction when Sam saw Dean alive in the Season Premiere. I mean, in the first half of Season 8 there was a lot of "you came back? drat, I had such a good thing going finally" stuff that was just horrific but even THAT Season Opener had an initial first emotional reaction upon seeing each other alive. The Season 12 was one was so understated, it was basically non-existant. 

As for not bantering, I get it throughout the valium-episodes because while they could have Sam be Dean and Sam at once in a lot of areas, two-way-banter was not one of them. In the first half of the Season I remember a bit here and there so that was okay IMO.   

[gonzosgirrl]

Personally, I would've loved to see some kind of on screen acknowledgement that Dean didn't, you know, explode at the end of 11x23. This is the sum total of what we got:

CASTIEL: Dean!

DEAN: Hey. Okay. All right.

CASTIEL: Dean. You're alive?

DEAN: Yeah.

CASTIEL: What about the bomb and the Darkness? What happened?

DEAN: I'll tell you everything.

Twenty one words, and two of them were Dean's name.

And then from Sam:

SAM: Dean.

DEAN: Hey.

SAM:I thought you were dead.

DEAN: I'm not sure I'm not.

SAM: So?

DEAN: I'll tell you. I'll tell you everything, okay?

Another twenty one words (one of which was his name again - good thing, however would we know???).

So he'll 'tell them later' - and okay, we know what happened, we don't need to see him telling them, but damnit, Dean (by which I mean, I) deserved some kind emotional response/acknowledgement to his being alive and having talked Amara off the ledge.

Edited May 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

I guess I haven't seen much banter between them this season other than maybe the Hitler episode and the diner scene in Memory Remains. But it also hasn't really bothered me either given how things have changed with Mary's presence. It's altered every thing.  But that's just me, YMMV

You know, I'm wondering in retrospect if maybe those spellworks from Lady RunHerThroughWithaHotPoker did something to Sam that caused him to be not all the interested in what was happening to Dean. I mean what better way to make Sam more likely to join up than alter his connection to Dean.  I guess I hadn't really thought of that until just now.

[ILoveReading]

I always thought Dean and Sam didn't hug mostly due to circumstances.  When Dean is caught and lead down the stairs, Jensen did a really nice job with showing us the relief that was all over Dean's face that Sam was okay.  (Relatively speaking).  Toni had been torturing Sam and was starting in on Dean.  You don't get all emotional in a moment like that, as it give the enemy more to use against you.

This might be an unpopular opinion but Sam and Dean reunions where one comes back from the dead are about a dime a dozen at this point.  No need to repeat the exact same material. 

Anything they said could give Toni the impression that the best way to get one to talk was to beat on the other.  Then Mick showed up, and they had to explain Mary being resurrected.  Sam's shock over that took precedent.

As for Dean and Cas, the script didn't include a hug between them, but it was something that was adlibbed by Misha and Jensen (it was mentioned at a con, don't ask me to remember which one.)  But it was just the 3 of them in the Bunker.

Same with First Blood.  Sam and Dean only hug during highly charged emotional moments, I don't see that as one mostly because Dean knew Sam was okay.  Sam wasn't injured or missing.  He was about 3 doors down from Dean.   When they met, again not really the best circumstances.  When your trying to escape from a secure facility, and you have a limited window.  You hightail it out of there.  You don't stop to hug.   

I'm very glad we didn't see any of the arguing over who was going to sacrifice themselves.  I didn't need to see it because I think it was obvious that Dean went into that plan thinking it was going to be him.  If there was a conversation i feel like it would have gone with Dean talking about how worthless he is, and Sam saying he's even more worthless.  No thanks. 

As for less brother banter, with Jared and Jensen only working part time these days, maybe the writers are trying to maximize the time they have with them.  One day of shooting equals five minutes of screen time, so while a 2 minute exchange may not seem like much, that would be almost half of one of Jensen and Jared's shooting days. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by ILoveReading