Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Bessie said:

That's exactly what jumped out to me in that quoted dialogue. Chuck claims that Dean never broke those promises, but Dean says he did look for Sam. And I'm inclined to believe him. I also think he stayed with Lisa because, on some level, he wanted that life. The promise played a part, pointed him in that direction, but I don't think it was the primary driver in him staying there for a year with no intention of leaving until Sam showed up. 

 

Quote

 

 

SAM: So you got to promise me something.

DEAN: Okay. Yeah. Anything.

SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.
DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.

SAM: Dean --

DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?

SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.

DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.

SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.

DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.

SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.
DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?
SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you – you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.

There were two promises Sam asked of Dean.

1) The first was for Dean to not look for Sam, to which Dean never actually agreed.  Dean said no, forcefully and repeatedly. The only thing he said was "What am I supposed to do then", which is when Sam told him to go to Lisa. The only rationale I have for Sam doing that is that it was a tactic to keep Dean from looking for him. Sam should have known better.  

2) The promise to live an apple pie life, which he tried to do at the same time as trying to find Sam. He didn't hunt during that time. IMO looking for Sam doesn't break any promise to live the apple pie life.

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14
because I left out some the quotes in the transcript

[catrox14]

They did not sell Sam pinging Dean's caring about a life with Lisa in the least little bit IMO.

Sam was pretty much focused on the whole NOT trying to be an angel condom that I don't think he gave any thought to Dean and Lisa. I mean there was no setup for it, until Dean took off out of the blue at the end of 99 Problems. And OF ALL the places and women Dean might have gone to see, Sam would think he  zipped off to find Lisa? 

Based on what?  A visit to see a chick, that Dean got busy with once 10 years ago, who had a kid that Dean never mentioned again after the dream that may or may not have been a recurring dream?

Hell I would have bought Dean going to find Lisa because he had convinced himself that Ben was really his son; that  maybe he'd been keeping tabs on DL on Ben since he had saved him.  But Ben never really even came up other than Dean asking if he was there when he came to say goodbye to Lisa. It's pretty clear Lisa had moved on and wasn't trying to contact HIM in those two or three years because he didn't have her new number which he even tells her but somehow he knew where she lived? (That's not creepy at all). LOL WTF show.

Good grief that was so bad. Worst setup for a relationship EVER. 

[rue721]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam never even attempted to find Dean, he just walked away and didn't look back.  Still big time OOC to me.

IA that it was OOC. And what I thought was really weird about Sam not looking for Dean after S7 was that Dean didn't actually die, he was teleported somewhere. I mean, even if Sam wasn't trying to bring him back to life or something, you'd think he'd want to at least know where he went.

Also, there was the thing of not responding to Kevin, which IMO was way weirder because it's like -- why wouldn't you at least help out this teenaged kid? I thought that was really OOC, too (maybe even more so than not going after Dean). Sam doesn't seem that cold hearted to me.

But here's another related UO -- I don't understand how the Winchesters have done nothing to track down John in all this time. Not even to make him go anyplace else or see him again or anything, just to know where he even is. That would be like my #1 ask if I suddenly made friends with an angel -- can you tell me where are these dead people who I care about. Let me know they aren't in a Lake of Fire or whatever. Let me know they're happy/peaceful/etc. But it doesn't seem to even cross the Winchesters' minds.

I also keep imagining that Mary was in heaven with the REAL John, and now John is freaking out because he's been left with a missing/dead wife and little babies (again). I keep expecting to see him tear out of heaven, totally crazed and in full Monster Hunter mode, like it's 1984 all over again ;) Well not really EXPECTING, but kind of hoping. ;)

Edited March 16, 2017 by rue721

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They did not sell Sam pinging Dean's caring about a life with Lisa in the least little bit IMO.

Sam was pretty much focused on the whole NOT trying to be an angel condom that I don't think he gave any thought to Dean and Lisa. I mean there was no setup for it, until Dean took off out of the blue at the end of 99 Problems. And OF ALL the places and women Dean might have gone to see, Sam would think he  zipped off to find Lisa? 

Based on what?  A visit to see a chick, that Dean got busy with once 10 years ago, who had a kid that Dean never mentioned again after the dream that may or may not have been a recurring dream?

Hell I would have bought Dean going to find Lisa because he had convinced himself that Ben was really his son; that  maybe he'd been keeping tabs on DL on Ben since he had saved him.  But Ben never really even came up other than Dean asking if he was there when he came to say goodbye to Lisa. It's pretty clear Lisa had moved on and wasn't trying to contact HIM in those two or three years because he didn't have her new number which he even tells her but somehow he knew where she lived? (That's not creepy at all). LOL WTF show.

Good grief that was so bad. Worst setup for a relationship EVER. 

I don't disagree with any of this.  They definitely created this relationship out of thin air.  But once it was a thing, I liked it.  

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

IA that it was OOC. And what I thought was really weird about Sam not looking for Dean after S7 was that Dean didn't actually die, he was teleported somewhere. I mean, even if Sam wasn't trying to bring him back to life or something, you'd think he'd want to at least know where he went.

Also, there was the thing of not responding to Kevin, which IMO was way weirder because it's like -- why wouldn't you at least help out this teenaged kid? I thought that was really OOC, too (maybe even more so than not going after Dean). Sam doesn't seem that cold hearted to me.

I agree with this, too.  If I close my eyes and squint, I can maybe come up with a semi-plausible reason why Sam wouldn't look for Dean.  If they had played that scene about a thousand times better, I could have believed that Sam really thought Dean was gone for good.  And since he didn't really have anyone he could turn to with both Cas and Bobby gone, he had no idea where to even begin to look.  But when you add in the fact that he totally ditched Kevin, and seemed almost annoyed that Dean was alive, that whole storyline just makes Sam look like a complete dick, and I don't believe that Sam is a dick, so that's on the writers and show runners, 100 percent.

Edited March 17, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

They did not sell Sam pinging Dean's caring about a life with Lisa in the least little bit IMO.

 

I agree they didn't sell the relationship well, but I do think that's what they were going for. The fact that Sam correctly guessed that Dean would have gone to Lisa shows that his assessment of the situation was fairly accurate.

Basically, I think that Kripke wanted a family ending for Dean, but hadn't done enough to set up the relationship, so he retconned the extent of Dean's closeness with Lisa. Sort of like Bobby became "Uncle Bobby" rather than "Dad's old hunting buddy" as the show went on and that served the narrative. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I agree they didn't sell the relationship well, but I do think that's what they were going for. The fact that Sam correctly guessed that Dean would have gone to Lisa shows that his assessment of the situation was fairly accurate.

Basically, I think that Kripke wanted a family ending for Dean, but hadn't done enough to set up the relationship, so he retconned the extent of Dean's closeness with Lisa. Sort of like Bobby became "Uncle Bobby" rather than "Dad's old hunting buddy" as the show went on and that served the narrative. 

Well, they can say that's what they were going for, but as a viewer, I don't have to buy what their selling.  Bah I hate the last 5 episodes of s5 so much minus Dean  meeting Death.

How could it all have gone so wrong after DSoTM.  Sigh

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

HOLY CRAP. I just had a revelation. I'm not even being sarcastic.

I think I totally get what Carver did in s8 with Sam. Sam wanted Dean to live the apple pie life he couldn't in s5...and in s8, Sam had the chance to do it, he did. Wow, it makes complete sense to me now. That's why Carver had the "agreement". 

Well, I am no longer on the Sam was OOC train, I've been riding for like years. Holy shit, this is a relief. IMO there was no mental breakdown from Sam.  He wanted an apple pie life and he sought to find. LORDY I GET IT!!!  Dang...

6 hours ago, Res said:

My UO is that I never saw the beginning of S8 as OCC for Sam. I was just amazed that TPTB actually went there, much like Demon Dean. After all, there are several times throughout the series where Sam leaves for whatever reason because he feels very justified in doing it. All the way back in S1 with "Scarecrow" he was fine with leaving for his own priorities. That being said, he does come back, especially if someone (Dean) is in trouble, but if he doesn't feel the need to come back for someone specific, (Jess, Dean, John, etc.) he is fine allowing others to do the hunting as he did when he was at Stanford and living with Amelia. That's one of the reasons that I don't buy that he will ever be 100% committed to hunting (which is fine for him, it's his choice). I know he says it and we are supposed to believe him but I'm pretty sure that Mary's talk about getting the monsters under control with the BMoL so that they could have "normal/safe" lives played into his "I'm in" because that's totally in character and something that he's wanted all his life. 

I more agree with @rue721 and @MysteryGuest that Sam's behavior in season 8 was OOC, especially not looking for Dean and Kevin.

But I'm still not even convinced about the Sam wanting a normal life thing. I disagree with the idea that it's totally in character. Even if taking in to account that in season 5 it was maybe something Sam still wanted - which I think that there is just as much, if not more evidence that Sam didn't - the time between season 5 and season 8 was even greater than the time between Dean's dream that Sam saw and "99 Problems." And that in between time had several beats where it was made clear Sam did not want the normal kind of life. Two specific examples being 1) "Swap Meat" - where Dean was the one who seemed more intrigued by an apple pie life while Sam outright pronounced the notion "crap" and something he wasn't missing at all, and 2) "The French Mistake" where Sam once again scoffs at Dean's notion that Sam might rather stay in the alternative universe.

Quote

Dean: You know that if we drop Virgil, get the key, then this might be it. We might be stuck here.
Sam: No, we'll figure out a way back.
Dean: Yeah, you wouldn't be that broken up if we didn't, though.
Sam: What? Don't be stupid.
Dean: Well, I'm just saying. No hell below us, above us only sky.
Sam: Dean, our friends are back there.
Dean: Yeah, but here, you got a pretty good life. I mean, back home, the hits have been coming since you were 6 months old. You got to admit, being a-a bazillionare, married to Ruby, the whole package. It's no contest.
Sam: No, you know, you were right. We just don't mean the same thing here. I mean, we're not even brothers here, man.
Dean: All right, then. Let's get our crazy show back home.

Sam is stressing that back in their life they make a difference with their hunting, and that is important to him - he mentions it a few times in season 7 as well. So for me, by the time we get to season 8, it's been more than 3 seasons since we've seen Sam even mention anything about wanting a normal life. For me, it was even longer than that - maybe that weird reference in "Chris Angel...", but that in itself was an odd mention, in my opinion. Before that it hadn't been mentioned since maybe mid season 2, if I'm remembering correctly. To me that was even more out of the blue than Dean going to see Lisa in "99 Problems." At least Dean showed some potential interest in "Swap Meat." So I agree with this:

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I also think there's plenty of evidence that Dean did care for Lisa -- or at least, the idea of Lisa -- quite apart from Sam's promise. Whatever Dean claimed in The Kids are Alright, I don't think he was going to Lisa's just to relive particularly good sexcapades one last time -- it is very IC that Dean would claim that as the reason, but we know he isn't that shallow. After meeting Ben, there was clearly a sense of what might have been, to the extent that he's dreaming about picnics with Lisa before picking up Ben from school in Dream a Little Dream of Me. He makes a point of going to see her before going off to say "yes" to Michael.

So, while I agree that Dean wouldn't have gone to Lisa's after Swan Song if he hadn't made a promise to Sam, I think Sam exacted that promise because he correctly sensed that it was something Dean desired on some level. It wasn't like Sam was creating some fantasy life for him out of whole-cloth. He was telling him to take the healthy option, rather than losing himself in self-destructive obsession. 

Yes, I agree. I agree Sam sensed that it was something Dean at least wanted to try, and so that's why he did it.

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How could it all have gone so wrong after DSoTM.  Sigh

*Small voice* I really liked all of those episodes. *Ducks in case of flying tomatoes.*

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Small voice* I really liked all of those episodes. *Ducks in case of flying tomatoes.*

Oh I know I'm way in the UO weeds here. LOL. I'll just sit here, all alone. It's okay

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They did not sell Sam pinging Dean's caring about a life with Lisa in the least little bit IMO.

Sam was pretty much focused on the whole NOT trying to be an angel condom that I don't think he gave any thought to Dean and Lisa. I mean there was no setup for it, until Dean took off out of the blue at the end of 99 Problems. And OF ALL the places and women Dean might have gone to see, Sam would think he  zipped off to find Lisa? 

Based on what?  A visit to see a chick, that Dean got busy with once 10 years ago, who had a kid that Dean never mentioned again after the dream that may or may not have been a recurring dream?

Hell I would have bought Dean going to find Lisa because he had convinced himself that Ben was really his son; that  maybe he'd been keeping tabs on DL on Ben since he had saved him.  But Ben never really even came up other than Dean asking if he was there when he came to say goodbye to Lisa. It's pretty clear Lisa had moved on and wasn't trying to contact HIM in those two or three years because he didn't have her new number which he even tells her but somehow he knew where she lived? (That's not creepy at all). LOL WTF show.

Good grief that was so bad. Worst setup for a relationship EVER. 

I agree with you so much on this. In season one when we meet Cassie it's clear that Dean regards her as the one that got away. Considering the fact that he met Lisa while Sam was away at Stanford it could be reasoned that she was a fling but he was still hung up on Cassie. When he was going through his bucket list during his last year before his deal he thought of Lisa because their weekend was a memorable experience. If she had been mentioned before as someone that he was pining over I could buy Sam urging him towards her but it seemed odd that she was suddenly Dean's happily ever after. Also, I didn't see their parting in Route 666 as Cassie rejecting him. He and Sam lived a transient, dangerous life and it wasn't wrong for her not to want to sign up for a relationship with a man in that kind of life despite how much she may have loved him. Sorry, I got somewhat long winded in my agreement!

[catrox14]

What would have made sense to me for Dean is just have him go off and look for a way to find Sam, then maybe he runs into Lisa somewhere, they strike up a thing, and THEN in  6.1, they are casually dating vs Dean having apparently moved in the moment he showed up.

ETA: Look I know it's Dean Fucking Winchester..but HOLY SHIT seriously, even I wouldn't let him move in right away.  Especially if I had a kid. /head desk

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[Airmid]

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree with this, too.  If I close my eyes and squint, I can maybe come up with a semi-plausible reason why Sam wouldn't look for Dean.  If they had played that scene about a thousand times better, I could have believed that Sam really thought Dean was gone for good.  And since he didn't really have anyone he could turn to with both Cas and Bobby gone, he had no idea where to even begin to look.  But when you add in the fact that he totally ditched Kevin, and seemed almost annoyed that Dean was alive, that whole storyline just makes Sam look like a complete dick, and I don't believe that Sam is a dick, so that's on the writers and show runners, 100 percent.

This was my main problem. I can buy that Sam didn't necessarily look for a way to get Dean out if he had known Dean was in Purgatory. Which he didn't seem to bother checking at all which struck me as just totally off and threw me right out of their whole reunion. Up to that point all they knew about Purgatory was that accessing it was very destructive, so yeah, given his history and meltdown over Dean in hell I can see him taking a step back and not being reckless.

But not looking for Kevin? Hooking up with some chick over a dog? Nope. Now if something had happened during that year that had made Sam change his mind or even run (given his history of bad decisions/guilt/noggin damage) it would have been something to take into consideration. But they gave us none and like you said, it was like Dean showing up was cramping his style.

The entire Amelia subplot fell into non-redemption for me when she kept seeing Sam after her husband came back and apparently didn't tell her husband about any of it. It's one thing to be told your husband is dead and to start a new relationship, and have things get complicated when the military goes 'oopsie'. It's a whole other ball of wax to keep having that relationship in secret - that's when it's adultery writers and a lot of people don't like it, especially when it's one of the leads and is way OOC for him.

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I know I'm way in the UO weeds here. LOL. I'll just sit here, all alone. It's okay

You aren't that alone. I liked bits of pieces of the last episodes after their trip to heaven up to Swan Song and then I started wondering why I had watched up to that point at all.

S5 feels massively disjointed to me, like they couldn't figure out their direction and kept changing course and felt unbalanced:

- What it meant to be a vessel let alone a true vessel never explained

- Suddenly resurrecting the dead for vesselhood was thing.

-  That the antichrist kid was six episodes in and was a product of a human and a demon. Seriously WTF? Why weren't demons doing this all the time? And the woman expelled the demon by eating road salt because the demon was tired from labor? Since when do demons get tired like that? I just...maybe I missed something in there because I have never rewatched that one despite action figure Cas being humorous.

- That Sam could be soul swapped and have his body say yes. And no demon told Lucifer where this kid was? Lucifer couldn't instant ping onto Sam's soul when he wasn't in a body guarded by the rib carvings? What was the point of true vessels again?

- Michael was the most inept general ever to the point where he would probably give himself a lobotomy if he tried to pick his nose. Seriously, did he only have like 5 random angel dudes and Zach the Spectacular Screw-up? I mean the whole thing with Adam was originally meant to be a trap, right? So why didn't he have Raphael go loiter around the warehouse once the brothers got there due just to Zach's track record? Better yet, once Adam was found, why not go see if more wild Winchester's appear in the area- take Dean's whole family hostage and start dealing. Don't even get me started on why he went to go stand by the gaping hole to hell when he could have just called the rings back like Luci did - which he would know how to do because he built the Cage. Just, ugh, and that's not even touching on my other issues with Swan Song.

- Sam's stupid plan or why demon blood for an archangel would be involved at all to hold Lucifer. To break him and make him give into the rage and join Lucifer - yes I can buy that enough. But an archangel (which Luci was and still is) needing demon blood?

I'll just stop there. I'm bitter about S5 as a whole. There were episodes I liked but all of them were before 99 problems, after that it was just bits and pieces of episodes, like Dean meeting Death (for the acting mostly), Sam's actual character growth in PONR, etc. I think I really started getting disappointed after Hammer of the Gods aired as the whole episode felt bloated yet empty. Yes, Gabriel is always fun but outside of learning how to stuff Lucifer back in it just felt like nothing really got accomplished outside of a lot of death. Maybe it's because I was never a big fan of American Gods.

I know there's a lot of love in the fandom for S5 but to me it's probably one of my least favorite seasons, mostly due to how it feels like everything was decided last minute with the end of the season kind of sputtering out for me.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Airmid
Edited for word change, see below posts

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering the fact that he met Lisa while Sam was away at Stanford it could be reasoned that she was a fling but he was still hung up on Cassie.

Dean's bendy weekend with Lisa was before he met Cassie. He met Lisa when he was doing a road trip--eight states in eight days, as I recall--while John and Sam finished up a banshee situation somewhere. He met Cassie after Sam left for Stanford. In my head the timetable works out as Lisa was probably not long before Sam left them and Cassie wasn't probably too long after the big fight. Maybe she was Dean's attempt to fill the void left by Sam?  It's an interesting contrast of experiences there.

41 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

When he was going through his bucket list during his last year before his deal he thought of Lisa because their weekend was a memorable experience.

That's exactly how I saw it. I don't think he ever gave Lisa another thought until he made the deal and decided to relive good times. But once he did give her another thought and saw her for more than a weekend hookup, I think he couldn't stop thinking about what could've been. It was a time in his life when he was doing a lot of that sort of thinking, after all.

It's not so much that Lisa was the love of Dean's life, IMO, but she and Ben represented a sort of ideal/fantasy family. Even though I believe Dean cared for both Lisa and Ben, I tend to think Dean loved the idea of Lisa and Ben more than the reality of them.

I actually have no problem with him suddenly showing up on her doorstep. It seems very much like something Dean would do given the situation. They were what he was sacrificing himself for. Not Lisa and Ben specifically, but people, families, life. I think he needed a reminder of what he was saving at that moment. And, I buy that Sam might be able to figure that out given the tight quarters they lived in.

TBH, I was fully prepared to hate the Lisa and Ben storyline. Supernatural just isn't that kind of show. But, the show surprised me with it. It doesn't last very long, shook up the show a bit without actually changing the show and provided some grounded conflict for Dean. And, I know this is seriously unpopular territory, but I think early S6 is some of Jensen's best work on the show. The only thing I dislike about it now is the resolution with the mind wipe. Setting logic aside, it took everything good Dean gave Lisa and Ben away with the bad. And, IMO, the good was so much more than the bad.

53 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't see their parting in Route 666 as Cassie rejecting him. He and Sam lived a transient, dangerous life and it wasn't wrong for her not to want to sign up for a relationship with a man in that kind of life despite how much she may have loved him.

I got the feeling she wasn't necessarily rejecting him, but it sure seemed like she was trying to let him down easy at the end. It could totally be due to the life and Cassie realizing it wasn't for her, but I had the feeling Dean was more into Cassie than Cassie was into him from the start. However, I think it would be very interesting to have Dean and Cassie meet up again now with Dean having more permanence in his life and a somewhat different outlook on relationships--hopefully with a different actress though.

[rue721]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I was fully prepared to hate the Lisa and Ben storyline. Supernatural just isn't that kind of show. But, the show surprised me with it. It doesn't last very long, shook up the show a bit without actually changing the show and provided some grounded conflict for Dean. And, I know this is seriously unpopular territory, but I think early S6 is some of Jensen's best work on the show.

Yeah, I loved it.

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 They definitely created this relationship out of thin air.  But once it was a thing, I liked it.

Taking my response to the Bitch vs Jerk thread.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, Airmid said:

This was my main problem.

I actually like most of your post.  Especially the first part about Amelia.  And I found a good bit of the second part about S5 very interesting even if I didn't quite agree with it.  

My Unpopular Opinion: I don't like it when an insulting title is used for Swan Song.  

Actually, I'm surprised that I could even finish reading your post to get some of your excellent observations as the use of that particular title (and others like it, but that is the one I see most often) turns me off so much that I'm usually inclined to stop reading right there.  And that truly would have been a shame.  

I know I've made this request before, but perhaps it was in another thread.  I understand that people do not like certain episodes.  That's fine.  

I think it's unnecessarily rude to those fan on the forum who do like particular episodes to use derogatory titles.   I would request, therefore, that in the future perhaps the episode could simply be referenced by 5.22 in order to avoid alienating any faction.  Thank you.

[Airmid]

While I can see it for other threads, in this instance, we are in an unpopular opinion and bitterness thread. And to be honest, while the derogatory title speaks louder there isn't a lot of difference to me personally between using that descriptor and saying 'that sucky Swan Song'. It was in no way meant to be derogatory to any fan of the episode or to look down on them for liking it and is just my pure and personal feeling towards it as a whole. YMMV and I can understand the request, especially outside of this type of thread.

I can say however that if there is a problem in my wording that turns someone off I would appreciate a PM to tell me why, or if it has been a request from another poster that for all purposes I just haven't seen. It is never my intention to deride fans of their own personal enjoyment and I would never condemn someone for liking something I just can't. In the future, I would like to know so I can change it if necessary and appreciate the same considerations.

As I said above, YMMV as to how each person feels to it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

As it was a request in general since I have seen others use the title also, I don't think a PM was in order in this case.  

And since this is the Unpopular Opinions thread, I simply stated mine.  :)

As for why, I think I already explained that.  I am not condemning anyone for not liking certain episodes.  I just don't understand how, when obviously the point of posting in a public forum such as this is pretty much to get as many people to at least read your opinion in the first place even if not sway them to your line of thinking, using divisive language is helpful at all?

[Airmid]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As it was a request in general since I have seen others use the title also, I don't think a PM was in order in this case.  

And since this is the Unpopular Opinions thread, I simply stated mine.  :)

As for why, I think I already explained that.  I am not condemning anyone for not liking certain episodes.  I just don't understand how, when obviously the point of posting in a public forum such as this is pretty much to get as many people to at least read your opinion in the first place even if not sway them to your line of thinking, using divisive language is helpful at all?

The only reason I asked for a PM was because you called out my post in particular instead of it being a general blanket request. If it had been the latter, I would have still gone back and changed my post but not felt so put on the spot for something I didn't know was an issue for some. If you can see where I'm coming from, I'm still on coffee number one over here and the brain fog, it be bad. :)

As for the episode in question, well I have both family and friends who watch and have been watching it for years and it's one of the ways we refer to the S5 finale. It wasn't even something I thought about, to be honest. The intent of my post wasn't to sway anyone into my line of thinking or even to agree with me, just how I felt about certain things. I can't speak for anyone else but at least for me in this thread, sometimes venting is just venting regardless of the medium used.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

25 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The only reason I asked for a PM

Sent!

[catrox14]

FWIW,  The mods did address this in their latest post

 

Quote

 

Finally, we'd like to remind everyone that the Be Civil rule applies to your fellow members. 

It does not apply to the show, the characters, the cast, etc.  Folks are free to say whatever they like - and however they'd like to say it - about anybody that is related to the show as long as it is not racist or homophobic etc.

 

[Diane]

Re-watching season 1, what maybe an UO is I really can't stand the original Meg.  I am not sure if it's the character or the way the actress played her.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Diane said:

Re-watching season 1, what maybe an UO is I really can't stand the original Meg.  I am not sure if it's the character or the way the actress played her.

I only liked Meg 1.0  in Devil's Trap.  The rest of the time she always bugged me. LOL. I preferred Meg 2.0 

[Diane]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I only liked Meg 1.0  in Devil's Trap.  The rest of the time she always bugged me. LOL. I preferred Meg 2.0 

I can't stand her, like I almost can't watch and enjoy Shadow because of her. I love Meg 2.0.

[sarthaz]

Meg 2.0 was a superior, better developed character; but I don't have a problem with Meg the First.

[MysteryGuest]

Meg 1.0 didn't really bother me, but I truly loved Meg 2.0.  I wish she were still part of the show, and was sorry to learn of Rachel Miner's health issues.

[Wayward Son]

It seems in in the minority who finds Meg 1.0 much better than 2.0 hehe 

[Wayward Son]

UO: I wish they'd make Cas human and write all other angels out of the show. I adore Cas and want him to stay always, but beyond him I'm so over the angel storyline. 

I also think the character would be better served being allowed to form close human friendships outside of the brothers. Maybe other hunters or something because the writers seemed bored of the other angels too. The angel characters have all been father substandard since season 6 - season 7. 

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It seems in in the minority who finds Meg 1.0 much better than 2.0 hehe 

I'm there with you! I liked Rachel Miner's portrayal but Nicki Aycox's was much better IMO. I loved the menace that she gave the character while Rachel's portrayal was more on the sarcastic side.

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

UO: I wish they'd make Cas human and write all other angels out of the show. I adore Cas and want him to stay always, but beyond him I'm so over the angel storyline. 

All of the angels seem to exist to either torment Castiel or the Winchesters for their relationship with Castiel. I miss Balthazar! :(

[ILoveReading]

15 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

It seems in in the minority who finds Meg 1.0 much better than 2.0 hehe 

I liked Meg 1.0 much better too.  I was never a fan of the kinder gentler Meg.  Not every character on this show needs a redemption arc.

[DittyDotDot]

I think the minority might be that I like both Megs and neither Megs. Basically, I think both actresses did well with what they were given and I enjoyed the performances, but I've never been all that interested in what the show did with either Meg story wise. IMO, Meg 2.0 isn't at all the same character even, so I don't know how to compare them, myself.

Edited March 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

I didn't like Meg that much in either iteration (EXCEPT when Jared was playing her, weirdly. Meg-in-Sam was the best Meg on the show by far IMO!).

But I love Rachel Minor, so I was cool with her being on the show, pretty much regardless of the character.

[MysteryGuest]

I loved Meg 2.0's relationship with Cas.  I thought they had great chemistry and loved to listen to them banter back and forth.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I loved Meg 2.0's relationship with Cas.  I thought they had great chemistry and loved to listen to them banter back and forth.

That's the one part of Meg 2.0 I didn't really like. Like it never made sense to me why Meg 1.0 was so different than Meg 2.0 when it came to Cas. She wanted to kill Cas in s5 didn't she?

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, catrox14 said:

That's the one part of Meg 2.0 I didn't really like. Like it never made sense to me why Meg 1.0 was so different than Meg 2.0 when it came to Cas. She wanted to kill Cas in s5 didn't she?

It may not have been consistent (but then what is about this show), but I still enjoyed it.  That's why I loved Reading is Fundamental.  I mean I enjoyed the episode for other reasons, as well, but I especially liked their interactions.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It may not have been consistent (but then what is about this show), but I still enjoyed it.  That's why I loved Reading is Fundamental.  I mean I enjoyed the episode for other reasons, as well, but I especially liked their interactions.

Oh I thought it was amusing but it was kind of out of left field for me too. Like he was throwing her on holy fire and literally walking over her to get of the Holy Fire ring in s6 or s7. So weird. LOL

Edited March 26, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Oh I thought it was amusing but it was kind of out of left field for me too. Like he was throwing her on holy fire and little walking over her to get of the Holy Fire ring in s6 or s7. So weird. LOL

Unless there was a repeat of it (I don't know 6 that we'll due to my dislike of it) I'm fairly certain the walking on Meg scene took place during season 5s Abandon All Hope

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Unless there was a repeat of it (I don't know 6 that we'll due to my dislike of it) I'm fairly certain the walking on Meg scene took place during season 5s Abandon All Hope

My bad, I got the season wrong. Doesn't really change my point though that she literally wanted to kill him and he literally threw her into Holy Fire to escape. Meet-cute? I mean at least Dean just stabbed Cas because he had no idea that Cas wasn't going to kill him. But Cas and Meg were trying to kill each other. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

They were on opposing sides of the apocalypse, after all. But, Meg learned and grew and her priorities shifted over time. ;)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

They were on opposing sides of the apocalypse, after all. But, Meg learned and grew and her priorities shifted over time. ;)

But I just needed to know WHY her priorities shifted. I swear that was never explained. That's all I needed to know!

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know, I've never really loved what they did with Meg, but I think it was just that her cause failed and she didn't have anything else in her life. And, Cass came along at a time when she really needed a friend.

In some ways I think she's like Crowley. It was in her best interest to change her priorities.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I've never really loved what they did with Meg, but I think it was just that her cause failed and she didn't have anything else in her life. And, Cass came along at a time when she really needed a friend.

In some ways I think she's like Crowley. It was in her best interest to change her priorities.

Okay, I can buy that

[auntvi]

At some point Meg 2.0, and I can't remember which ep, said that she always had to have a cause, and when one was over, she'd look for a new one. But I think she was always against Crowley. ;)

[mertensia]

I think everything Meg 1.0 did was because she was following what Azazel told her to do. Meg 2.0, as she herself said, had to change and adapt and learn and grow. 

[Macbeth]

Meg 1.0 and Meg 2.0 were never, ever on Team Crowley.  The only point Meg 2.0 and Crowley ever agreed on was that the Leviathans needed to be taken out so they assisted the boys.  After Meg's assist she was taken into custody by Crowely and tortured for her efforts as well as her other anti-Crowley efforts.

Given that it was the character of Meg who is directly responsible for the deaths of Jo and Ellen and whose actions indirectly led to the death of Dad Winchester - I could always understand the boys general disdain of her.

But I loved Rachel Miner's version, and do miss her.  Especially her relationship with Castiel a/k/a The Pizza Man.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Macbeth

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Guys, listen, the recent discussion was inappropriate and not cool. This is not a fan site, ALL opinions are welcome here. If you find yourself tiring of reading a particular poster, the ignore function is there. Short of that, skimming is a good idea. What isn't a good idea is complaining on the board about it, it will get you a warning or worse. Finally, please do not argue - REPORT. Multiple posts have been removed and any further instances will result in warnings being handed out.

[Katy M]

OK, here's my unpopular opinion. While I do think that Mary was wrong to sneak around with the BMOL and lie to them about the purpose of the one hunt, as far as I know, she's not lying now. I don't think she's horrible for not wanting to spend a lot of time with these people who are strangers to her.  For once, we have a SPN situation that could sort of happen in real life.  Not coming back from the dead of course, but if Mary had been in a coma for 30 years.  That's a long time to be in a coma and wake up, but I think there have been some that long, or at least close to.  In the real world, nobody would be expecting Mary to just pick up where she left off. All of them would be in counsilling.  for a long time.

And, if this were the first time Dean got upset for someone "ditching" him, I would give him a pass. But, for the first five seasons, how many times did we hear him say bitterly "ditched us for Stanford?"  Like going to college is such an evil thing.  He even had to go hunt his dad down the second he left him (at the age of 26) even though John had left him a voice message and told him not to.  I love Dean. But, face it, he's a little clingy.  It's not like Mary has cut off all contact.  She lived with them for at least a week, I would say, and gone on several hunts with them, and played Words with Friends with Dean for a while.  She just needs time and pushing her is not going to make it go faster.

[Myrelle]

I think we hold different definitions of the word "clingy" where it applies to Dean and his mom. So I'll just leave it at that and say that I respectfully disagree with most of your post, but especially that part. Dean has given her all the time and space she asked for and wanted, IMO. For him to want/desire just a little something more in the way of love/attention out of a relationship with his birth mother-whom he does have some genuine and loving childhood memories of, btw-should not be labelled as "clingy", IMO.

But as always, MV with everything concerning this show.

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

OK, here's my unpopular opinion. While I do think that Mary was wrong to sneak around with the BMOL and lie to them about the purpose of the one hunt, as far as I know, she's not lying now. I don't think she's horrible for not wanting to spend a lot of time with these people who are strangers to her.  For once, we have a SPN situation that could sort of happen in real life.  Not coming back from the dead of course, but if Mary had been in a coma for 30 years.  That's a long time to be in a coma and wake up, but I think there have been some that long, or at least close to.  In the real world, nobody would be expecting Mary to just pick up where she left off. All of them would be in counsilling.  for a long time.

And, if this were the first time Dean got upset for someone "ditching" him, I would give him a pass. But, for the first five seasons, how many times did we hear him say bitterly "ditched us for Stanford?"  Like going to college is such an evil thing.  He even had to go hunt his dad down the second he left him (at the age of 26) even though John had left him a voice message and told him not to.  I love Dean. But, face it, he's a little clingy.  It's not like Mary has cut off all contact.  She lived with them for at least a week, I would say, and gone on several hunts with them, and played Words with Friends with Dean for a while.  She just needs time and pushing her is not going to make it go faster.

I would agree that I was never a fan of the guilt trip Dean (and John) tried to lay on Sam for going off to college.

However, I do believe that the situation with John was an entirely different matter. We have to remember that the Winchester's have always lived a very dangerous lifestyle. The disappearance of John was portrayed as a very unusual event at that point in their lives, as shown by how seriously Sam took it IMO. Initially, for all  Dean knew, John could have been in trouble of some sort. He could have been kidnapped, he could have been hurt and in need of their help.

When they did finally hear from John it wasn't actually Dean who wanted to go against John's order it was Sam. That was a large part of the conflict between the brothers during the mini arc of Asylum and Scarecrow. Once Dean knew that John was safe and had left of his own free will he was content to follow his orders and continue hunting with Sam. It was Sam who pushed to go to California and track him. Then when they did finally reunite with John Dean became worried when he realised John was facing his worst threat yet. 

[Reganne]

I never got the whole 'abandoning' issue where Sam and college were concerned either and I can totally see where Mary's issues are coming from to an extent.  The feeling that she never got to raise her children.  That she wasn't able to be a part of their childhoods or their early lives.  The feeling that John is gone. I can see why she would want to clear her head in a way.  I can understand why she sees value in a world without monsters and a world where her boys don't have to dedicate their lives to hunting where they will most likely die at an early age.  The thing I didn't understand was how she dragged them into what turned out to be a dangerous situation in order for her to steal the colt and give it to the BMOL.  Even when Ramiel asked for it, she refused.  Knowing full well that he was going to attack Sam and Dean and that Castiel was on his deathbed.  Clearing the world of monsters isn't going to do your family any good if they're already dead.  

[rue721]

34 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, I do believe that the situation with John was an entirely different matter. We have to remember that the Winchester's have always lived a very dangerous lifestyle.

Yeah, IMO Dean dropped some pretty heavy hints that he thought John was dead. And it was pretty reasonable for him to be worried about that, given the circumstances of their lives and John's disappearance. So I think that's a different scenario than him being upset about Sam going to school.

I'm pretty sympathetic to Dean being upset about Sam going to school, though, too. He seems to keep framing it as Sam leaving him to carry on "the family business" and take care of John alone, which even under ordinary circumstances would be kind of fraught, but which has the added pressure of how EXTREMELY isolated their lives were/are as hunters. In the first season, Dean describes himself as a freak at least a couple times, and IMO that's a perfectly fair thing for him to do because their lives are super weird and not really that understandable to outsiders. And on top of that, they were sworn to secrecy anyway.