S02.E11: Chapter 19

[Bort]

Quote

David fights the future.

Airdate: June 12, 2018

[RandomWatcher]

Well that happened

[AimingforYoko]

The question is, are they really going there? Making David the villain? He did fuck with Syd's head. Everything else is kind of ambiguous.

I wonder if they'll call in Dad for Season 3, because I don't think even Farouk can fuck with him now.

[Nexus8]

David DOES have superpowers AND he IS mentally ill. So what? Who wouldn't be with superpowers? Doesn't mean they should have turned against him.

[Cherokee Rose]

So true. They would've been defeated without David, in the first place.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

33 minutes ago, Nexus8 said:

David DOES have superpowers AND he IS mentally ill. So what? Who wouldn't be with superpowers? Doesn't mean they should have turned against him.

And of course, their betrayal created the future they were trying to avoid.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Also, if Cary could see that David did a mindwipe on Syd, couldn't he also see that Syd tried to shoot him first? Might that not provide an explanation for his actions? And what does everyone think happened to Oliver and Melanie? Did David have to explain his torture of Oliver? Wasn't Melanie's essence in the now-dead Minotaur?

And why wasn't David overjoyed to see Syd again (despite the gun) after what he had gone through to try and find her?

Edited June 13, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And why wasn't David overjoyed to see Syd again (despite the gun) after what he had gone through to try and find her?

He probably would have been if she hadn't been so stony towards him about being the real monster. She's right to feel betrayed about him mindwiping her, but even if he really is insane, he's not insane enough to not know when his life is in danger. I wonder if he knows Lenny tried to kill Syd, pretty much. Maybe that was his way of thanking her, by taking her out of her chains at the end. They're going to be a fun pair next season.

[Bruinsfan]

Melanie dropped like a sack of flour when Farouk jumped from her to his own body, but I assume she'd have woken up all right in the monastery basement at some point afterwards.

So far Division 3 basically only have Farouk's word for about 90% of the things they're accusing David of, which seems like a very shaky foundation to build one's strategies on. And they're acting like Farouk is some innocent that David is maligning, rather than a common enemy who's gleefully killed (at least) dozens of people and treated them all like toys to be played with. I can see Farouk messing with people's heads to that end—Syd in the monastery and Cary, Kerry, and Clark once he was free of his inhibitor headgear, but aren't Fukiyama and Vermillion supposed to be immune to telepathic tampering?

[Cthulhudrew]

That opening sequence was badass.

[showme]

Wow, isn't Syd the worst girlfriend EVER? And those so-called friends, all turned on David just like that? And suddenly Furuk is a free man? All his previous sins forgotten and forgiven?

Given how David was treated by his "friends" and "girl friend", I wouldn't blame him even if he did turn evil. Who wouldn't after being betrayed like that?

And Syd definitely doesn't deserve to be David's girlfriend to begin with if she can be so easily manipulated by The Shadow King and Melanie to doubt someone she supposedly "love". She is weak and trash. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by showme

[DNOMAD]

season 3 should be interesting now that david is doubting his own sanity again with the addition of his omega level abilities fully in play.patrick stewart said he would be open to being on the show,so maybe pops will make an appearance ?

[justmehere]

3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And of course, their betrayal created the future they were trying to avoid.

Exactly. Mind-wiping Syd was serious and deserved to be called out, but to go so far as trusting Farouk and accusing David based on possible future actions? Yeah, they ensured that future. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I thought they mentioned something about the Orb from the S1 finale as having been identified as being built by Cary, but I couldn't entirely make out what they were saying (it was Admiral Fukuyama's clone saying it in that weird autotune voice). I'm still trying to figure out where exactly David was between seasons. Maybe it was sent by Future Cary to stop David? Is that what they were implying?

And of course, no Ptonomy which kind of sucks. 

I'm glad they've got another season to tie some of this up.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I thought they mentioned something about the Orb from the S1 finale as having been identified as being built by Cary, but I couldn't entirely make out what they were saying (it was Admiral Fukuyama's clone saying it in that weird autotune voice). I'm still trying to figure out where exactly David was between seasons. Maybe it was sent by Future Cary to stop David? Is that what they were implying?

The Vermilion said there was a 98% chance thst the Orb had been created by the male Loudermilk, implying that Future-Cary was involved with snatching up David. A recent episode did show Cary examining the Orb and saying that it resembled his work.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

The question is, are they really going there? Making David the villain? He did fuck with Syd's head. Everything else is kind of ambiguous.

I wonder if they'll call in Dad for Season 3, because I don't think even Farouk can fuck with him now.

Many internet recappers consider David to be a rapist for what he did with Syd after removing her memories. They do indeed consider him a villain-controlling and abusive, with a belief that he "deserve(s) to be loved.

They also compare the mind wipe to what Willow did to Tara in Buffy.

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[showme]

37 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Many internet recappers consider David to be a rapist for what he did with Syd after removing her memories. They do indeed consider him a villain-controlling and abusive, with a belief that he "deserve(s) to be loved.

Since many internet recapper consider so, we all should agree, right? Actually no, I don't. They are in a relationship and have slept together before. David only removed the evil thoughts Farouk planted in her head, that is not rape.

[zobot81]

Yikes.

[patty1h]

I was a big fan of the first season, but this one just lost my attention more and more as the season went by. There was too much "WTF?" to interpret. This finale episode... I like the opening sequence for the use of "Behind Blue Eyes".  Otherwise, I can't even tell you what happened except for the end.  I thought it was kinda lazy that the season ended almost identically as S1, with a powerful being loose to rampage at will.  Last year Oliver left with the Shadow King inside him with ride-along Lenny; now evil/powerful David is loose, with Lenny as his unhinged sidekick.

Edited June 13, 2018 by patty1h

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:04 AM, showme said:

Since many internet recapper consider so, we all should agree, right? Actually no, I don't. They are in a relationship and have slept together before. David only removed the evil thoughts Farouk planted in her head, that is not rape.

Being in a sexual relationship isn't a bar to rape. I suppose the argument is that he deprived her of thoughts (drugged her) that would have stood in the way of her wanting to sleep with him. And based on last week's opening preview of the future, (which likely resulted from trying to trap David), it looks like Syd might have been correct in her conclusions about David, no matter that Farouk was manipulating her through Melanie. It's all a loop of causality, so no definitive answer is possible on that point.

Edited June 17, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Bruinsfan]

It's really gray... David erasing Syd's recent memories deprives her of info to make a decision, but a lot of that info came from the Shadow King, presented in the worst possible light and apparently with undue mental influence prompting her to accept everything at face value. And she appeared to be making her own decisions when David projected himself into her room, so the situation isn't so much analogous to roofying her, more like getting her blackout drunk so she forgets a fight and then cozying up to her when she's sober the next day.

Interesting that Farouk basically told the truth but appeared to push Syd into believing him without question, whereas David hid things from her but allowed her to make up her mind without ongoing influence. They appear to have cancelled each other out more or less; Syd's responses in that intervention/kangaroo court (based on things Cary showed her) seemed more like her than how she was reacting before David mind-whammied her.

[mammaM]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

I was a big fan of the first season, but this one just lost my attention more and more as the season went by. There was too much "WTF?" to interpret.

 

This. I couldn't wait to see each new episode first season. This season, I realize there's a new episode and I haven't seen the previous one yet. It's not bad but it's not "must-see-TV" anymore, and that's a shame.

And this season finale is one of the reasons I really hate season finales. All this shit happens and it usually gets reconned in the first episode of the new season. Is David a rapist? Why is SK walking around free? Melanie and the minatour, wtf? Why is Syd such a moron?  Where's the creepy bloody  delusion chick?  By the end of Season 3, ep. 1, there's a better than 50-50 chance none of it will have been real.

Edited June 13, 2018 by mammaM
Tablet hates me

[justmehere]

David is a child both emotionally and socially. He's been manipulated since birth; locked away and drugged; had little experience at "normal" life; and then was basically given keys to a Ferrari with minimal knowledge of how to drive. The one person guiding him, Melanie, then checked out with her own issues, leaving him to flounder and find his own way. He was going to crash a few times. He also went off his meds, not knowing that there was genuine mental illness going on. Melanie didn't know either, but if she'd continued mentoring him, she might have noticed and kept him in line.

He learned about his powers pretty quickly, but then like a teenager, he thought he knew everything. And he was in love, so he listened to his girlfriend, who appeared from the future, trusting her without question. (Yeah, that causality loop is a big deal.) He also lost his sister, which did very bad things to his head. He's trying to fulfill what he thinks is his mission, driving at 120mph, and he finally begins winning the battle with Farouk.

Suddenly his girlfriend pulls a gun on him for no reason he can understand. In his confusion (and immaturity) -- and with incredible power at his disposal -- he does a bad thing and wipes her mind. Such a minor act, to him, to make her forget a few upsetting things because she must be confused. Torturing Oliver was certainly bad -- I wonder if it was one of those other Davids in his head pushing him; he seemed kind of outside or beyond himself -- but he thought his mission justified doing so. With Syd, it was an emotionally young David wanting love and taking a shortcut. He lacked any real insight. Doesn't make what he did OK, but he was going to make mistakes. (How many teenage boys try to emotionally manipulate their girlfriends? It's not OK; it's also not uncommon.)

When Fukyama shows up with the cavalry, he feels vindicated and is sure he's done right. Farouk is the dangerous one, and now he's been captured. Energetically visiting Syd and sleeping with her... bad because it builds on the earlier transgression but he still doesn't understand. He even shows up to the trial all in white: innocence. Now the people he began to think of as family have betrayed him. Reverting to the mantra about being good and deserving love, I think, shows the child who is lost, who has never understood himself or what was happening to him. He's alone again.

Farouk has still been an influence on him and obviously on others as well, which muddies things further. I don't quite know what to think about the general reaction to Cary's discovery. He called the mind wipe treachery, yes? That seems a bit extreme. Perhaps he's influenced by realizing he created the orb. There must have been a danger that necessitated capturing David, so maybe this action toward Syd was the beginning. He overreacts, obviously not understanding his own contribution to that future danger. The circumstantial evidence, combined with fears about David's power, puts everyone on alert. The trial happens, and they cause the danger they feared.

Meanwhile, Farouk is free. I do not understand them trusting him. Period. If David has gone out of control, it doesn't make Farouk safe. They have tons of evidence of his doings. However mentally ill David might be, he had a parasite in his mind his whole life, one that continued to wreak havoc after moving on to Oliver. Freeing him makes no sense to me. He was behind he delusion creature as well (we saw Lenny with it), yet no one remembers Ptonomy? Have they been mind wiped? For all the crazy events and tangents this season, freeing Farouk truly baffles me.

Anyway, no conclusions; just trying to make some sense of it all. This season was definitely harder to follow. Maybe re-watching as a whole will help. I'm glad there's going to be another season. I sort of expect it to be the last, though, so I hope they wrap it up well. Or, at least pull things back to season 1 level of esoteric trippiness. Going back to 8 or 9 episodes might be a good thing.

[superloislane]

It started with what was basically a music video! I loved it!

Sydney is kind of a bitch/moron who completely turned on David for no real reason. She was in love with this man just yesterday and now she's threatening him with a gun because Farouk told her things?

'God has plans for you' - I see you David!

I'm actually glad David is finally having different personalities since that's a huge part of the comics.

The actor who plays Farouk was very good in this episode

It's interesting that we're supposed to see David's memory changing of Syd as treachery but not Syd's attempted murder of David

They're all just fine with the Shadow King being free now? He murdered a bunch of people in that building about a week earlier! And how messed up is it that Farouk is free but Lenny is still chained up?

Was Farouk messing with everyone's minds to make them all think David was such a bad guy they were willing to kill him? Or was it that and the idea that he could turn evil in the future? It seemed to come on very quickly. But, doing this is entirely the reason he lost it and went evil! And honestly, I'm rooting for David in this situation.

I am looking forward to seeing David and Lenny team up next season - they have great chemistry and are great in scenes together.

I just hope the next season has more substance over style - that's been the problem this season.

Edited June 14, 2018 by superloislane

[AKA...CJ86]

The opening was brilliant!

I'm on the fence on whether Farouk was messing with everyone or if every really did turn on David.  Also not liking spending all this time with the mission to destroy Farouk/his body... and now everyone lets him free.  Again, unless he's messing with everyone... I can't see how...

I'm here for a David and Lenny rampage/on the run season next season!

[Cruella]

Why they would have suspicions of David is perhaps understandable, but why would they trust Farouk, who clearly has vested interest in undermining David, is increadibly powerful and manipulative (i.e. can stage a lot of things for his interests) is not even remotely so. Why wouldn't they suspect that this is all an elaborate plan of Farouk's, who among other things can manipulate minds and take over bodies? 

In fact, after seeing SK walking around, David is very justified in believing that others are somehow under his evil influence. Withouth him there, free, David might have been more open to listening to his "friends", especially if they didn't gang up on him. Even if we take for granted that he's done something awful (mind-wiping Syd was obviously very troublesome moment), the fate of the world is at stake, so perhaps it's more important to turn David to your side gently than to accuse him. Get your priorities straight. 

Wiping Syd's memory is certainly one of those steps in very dangerous direction, but he removed something that made her try to kill him, that's self-defence. After she tried to murder him for no real crime, he would be even justified in killing her in self-defence, let alone removing some trace of Farouk's influence. Her turn about was so sudden, he could understandably conclude that she's suffering from some Farouk's induced delusion or temporary insanity.

I am not at all convinced that David is a "good" guy (whatever that even means), a person with such powers can be terrifying being just for existing, perhaps he even should be annihilated for everyone's sake in a move of tragic necessity, there is potentially interesting story there, but the way it was realized didn't work for me at all, unnecessarily convoluted and unconvincing to the point where everyone now looks like bizarre cretin - i.e. no matter what you think of David, Farouk is also super-powerful and known sadistic mass murderer  - why would you let him go? 

Characterization also isn't their strong suit, e.g. Syd's jump from one-note David's obsessed devotee to being ready to kill him wasn't remotely convincing. 

Opening scene was beautiful! Maybe one day they'll use this cinematic grandeur on some show that makes sense. Say, let's do Zelazny's Isle of Dead! 

Love actor who plays Farouk, btw, him and Lenny are the best part of the show, maybe they should kill everyone else and become the stars)) 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Cruella

[FiveByFive]

1 hour ago, Cruella said:

Why wouldn't they suspect that this is all an elaborate plan of Farouk's, who among other things can manipulate minds and take over bodies? 

It's tricky because Farouk didn't show Syd anything that didn't actually happen. Furthermore, they were starting to figure out what David had been up to even before Farouk was released from his cell.

It's like the advice Heather B gave to contestants on The Real World about being upset how they are portrayed by the editors/writers of the show: if you don't give it to them then they can't use it. 

1 hour ago, Cruella said:

Wiping Syd's memory is certainly one of those steps in very dangerous direction, but he removed something that made her try to kill him, that's self-defence. After she tried to murder him for no real crime, he would be even justified in killing her in self-defence, let alone removing some trace of Farouk's influence.

His intent was clear based upon his own dialogue with himself and the scenes afterwards; he didn't do it to defend himself. He did it so she would love him again.

If his intent was to defend himself, there were other ways to do it. She was already knocked out. He didn't have to do anything. If his intent was to simply stop the part of her that wanted to kill him, then he should have gone to anyone else and told them what he did after they locked her down somewhere.

He didn't want anyone to know because he knew it was wrong and he didn't want what she knew to get back to the others. 

I agree that up until that point he had committed no serious crime. So her attack on him was based on the information both he and the Shadow King gave her as they both claimed it came from her. She said she was going to trust herself which included her future self and kill him.

It was all very chicken egg, now that I think about it. Syd thinks David is bad because future Syd told everyone so but past Syd would have never betrayed David if David didn't help push what future Syd said. 

2 hours ago, CyberJawa1986 said:

I'm on the fence on whether Farouk was messing with everyone or if every really did turn on David.  

I just realized the show told us this was going to happen with the story before the trial on the title cards. 

Did they really "turn"on David though? They seemed like they wanted to help him. We know that he is powerful. We also know that he has a mental illness. They weren't wrong and the show has let us know they weren't wrong. The question is, could he control it, and based upon what he did to Syd it was clear that he couldn't control some of his impulses. The guy is running around thinking he's God. He doesn't believe he is doing or has done anything wrong. While the damage done to his mind might be because of Farouk's original influence (they even said as much) he can not run around thinking that. 

Finally that last scene was a brilliant piece of acting by Dan Stevens as he clearly established the three different personalities in his head we saw earlier and flipped between them at various times while arguing with his former friends.

Edited June 14, 2018 by FiveByFive

[ItCouldBeWorse]

38 minutes ago, FiveByFive said:

Did they really "turn"on David though? They seemed like they wanted to help him. We know that he is powerful. We also know that he has a mental illness. They weren't wrong and the show has let us know they weren't wrong. The question is, could he control it, and based upon what he did to Syd it was clear that he couldn't control some of his impulses. The guy is running around thinking he's God. He doesn't believe he is doing or has done anything wrong. While the damage done to his mind might be because of Farouk's original influence (they even said as much) he can not run around thinking that.

Syd said that David had suffered terribly his whole life at Farouk's hands.  That still didn't mean that he wouldn't need to be stopped.

[showme]

1 hour ago, FiveByFive said:

It's tricky because Farouk didn't show Syd anything that didn't actually happen. Furthermore, they were starting to figure out what David had been up to even before Farouk was released from his cell.

It's like the advice Heather B gave to contestants on The Real World about being upset how they are portrayed by the editors/writers of the show: if you don't give it to them then they can't use it. 

That is a very lame excuse used by manipulators, be it a reality TV directors or Faruk!

By taking your emotions, words and actions out of context then re-frame and reorganize them, they can produce any desired story telling they want. You don't give it to them? they will provoke you and they will put you in situations in order to get the desired reaction out of you.  Haven't you seen "Unreal"?

Unfortunately that is exactly what the SK did to David (to get his reactions that he needed) and to use them to manipulate Syd via the hands of Melanie.

Syd is weak and stupid to fall for for SK's lies, however, if she had really loved David, she wouldn't have been so easily manipulated, nor would she have turned on David so quickly and so completely. Worst "girlfriend" EVER! I despise her!

Edited June 14, 2018 by showme

[scrb]

I'm undecided about the music video opening.  I can imagine Hawley doesn't want to mimic the effects-heavy kind of action sequences of other superhero shows and movies -- but does he think his is a better way or is he being different just to be different?

So a lot of the action is translated into this stylized, metaphoric imagery.  But for good measure it ends with David actually trying to pummel Farouk's face to a pulp.

Then you get more mannered visuals, with Melanie and Oliver reminiscing about what happened in some pseudo home movie from the '60s.

Meanwhile, Syd was comparing him to some generic serial killer cruising the streets of Portland in a van with plenty of duct tape available or Son of Sam?  Not just some all-powerful God but now she's drawing the viewers in with references they can identify with, while they're in this vague world which both resembles and doesn't resemble the real world.

Then we get those placards before the trial, so yet another visual style introduced to take the viewer out of the story, kind of like those digressions throughout this second season narrated by Jon Hamm.

I'm not sure what this mishmash of styles is suppose to be about.  Certainly does nothing for plot momentum because when it abruptly switches context, the change calls attention to itself and diverts from what was happening previously.

There's a callback to one of the digressions, with the egg when David is talking to his other selves in his room.  Does that mean these previous digressions were all in David's head?

In the end, Farouk, presented as this great menace throughout the series, survives the season finale and will presumably continue to play a large role in season 3.  At this point, they probably won't ever move on from the character.  So David overcoming the SK in season 1 wasn't any kind of progress because maybe SK was just helping David discover his bad self all along?  And that's what we'll be getting in season 3?

[scrb]

Pointing a gun at David is futile.

Didn't he in the first season have bullets sprayed at him and he just froze them in the air?

He has dispensed dozens of soldiers at once with the wave of a hand so Syd's gun wasn't going to do anything to him even if Lenny's shot didn't knock the bullet from Syd's gun out of the air.

He could have just leveled Division 3 instead of teleporting out of there, if he was truly evil and now unhinged.

But what's he going to do now, go out to the real world or obviously he's going to have to deal with these other characters.

[FiveByFive]

2 hours ago, showme said:

By taking your emotions, words and actions out of context then re-frame and reorganize them, they can produce any desired story telling they want. You don't give it to them? they will provoke you and they will put you in situations in order to get the desired reaction out of you.  Haven't you seen "Unreal"?

If David didn't torture Oliver with a drill then Mel/Shadow King wouldn't have had that to show to her. Provoking him or not he made that choice. He also made that choice in the most brutal way he could think of. She knew the context. 

Shadow Mel also let Syd know that David had been lying to her again about working with the Shadow King. We saw it ourselves, that actually happened.  He promised her no more secrets. He broke that promise. He didn't have to, he chose to. No one made him. If he hadn't of done that there would have been nothing to show her.

And the words the Shadow King used to describe the future came from future Syd herself. She not only saw part of the conversation but we did too so we know he wasn't lying.

Whether or not these things were shown in succession, all of these things actually happened.

Were they shown in order to manipulate Syd? Yes. Did they happen? Yes. 

Did he immediately manipulate her mind in order to serve his own selfish desires right after? Yes. 

If you're on a Reality Show and they offer you free alcohol and try and get you to talk smack on someone -- you have a choice -- don't drink the alcohol and don't talk smack. I almost made it onto one of those once, I got really far in the audition process, but I was also someone that didn't react to things the way a producer probably would want me to. So I didn't get on. 

We can't treat David like he has no agency post-Shadow King possession or else there's no point to his journey. Things are going to be harder for him (because of his power and mental illness) but he still has to have the potential to be good and loved or there's no struggle. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, scrb said:

Pointing a gun at David is futile.

Didn't he in the first season have bullets sprayed at him and he just froze them in the air?

He has dispensed dozens of soldiers at once with the wave of a hand so Syd's gun wasn't going to do anything to him even if Lenny's shot didn't knock the bullet from Syd's gun out of the air.

He could have just leveled Division 3 instead of teleporting out of there, if he was truly evil and now unhinged.

But what's he going to do now, go out to the real world or obviously he's going to have to deal with these other characters.

David didn't have his powers when Syd aimed the gun at him.  Neither of them did because Lenny had set off the "The Choke," (giant tuning fork).  Farouk was powerless, too, which was why David was able to nearly beat him to death.  This was Syd's one chance to take David out.

[DavidJSnyder]

Is the giant tuning fork that turns off mutant powers supposed to be new?  Because it seems it would have been useful for Division 3 many times before this.

[Bruinsfan]

Seems like it would have come in very handy in that trial with both David and Farouk present.

One thing I have a problem with, what Cary postcognitively viewed David doing was visually no different than the touches to the forehead he used to free various members of the group from both the chattering plague and those creepy tar chick parasites, and since Syd wouldn no longer have the memories he erased they're going on Farouk's word about it. We know that's what he did, but Fukiyama/Vermillion have no reason whatsoever to believe that's what happened and the only reason the others have is if Farouk is tampering with their minds to make them believe him.

At this point I don't see that David has so much gone evil as mad and resentful, which are pretty justifiable reactions given the circumstances.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

One thing I have a problem with, what Cary postcognitively viewed David doing was visually no different than the touches to the forehead he used to free various members of the group from both the chattering plague and those creepy tar chick parasites, and since Syd wouldn no longer have the memories he erased they're going on Farouk's word about it. We know that's what he did, but Fukiyama/Vermillion have no reason whatsoever to believe that's what happened and the only reason the others have is if Farouk is tampering with their minds to make them believe him.

Exactly.  As I mentioned earlier, Cary should have seen that shortly before, Syd was aiming a gun directly at David, the love of her life!  Wouldn't that indicate that she was under a delusion?

Edited June 14, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[justmehere]

10 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

David didn't have his powers when Syd aimed the gun at him.  Neither of them did because Lenny had set off the "The Choke," (giant tuning fork).  Farouk was powerless, too, which was why David was able to nearly beat him to death.  This was Syd's one chance to take David out.

That does makes sense as far as him beating Farouk. Yet he was able to mind-wipe Syd a couple of minutes later. Was there any indication of powers coming back?

[showme]

10 hours ago, FiveByFive said:

If David didn't torture Oliver with a drill then Mel/Shadow King wouldn't have had that to show to her. Provoking him or not he made that choice. He also made that choice in the most brutal way he could think of. She knew the context.

Sorry, not going to continue this futile discussion with you. You believe whatever you want. Have a good day!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, justmehere said:

That does makes sense as far as him beating Farouk. Yet he was able to mind-wipe Syd a couple of minutes later. Was there any indication of powers coming back?

I think the effects of the tuning fork coincidentally wore off shortly after Lenny shot Syd's bullet from the air which caused both Syd and David to fall backwards.

[AimingforYoko]

37 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think the effects of the tuning fork coincidentally wore off shortly after Lenny shot Syd's bullet from the air which caused both Syd and David to fall backwards.

I'm pretty sure David said in the previous ep that the effects of The Choke last two or three minutes.

[superloislane]

On 14/6/2018 at 5:00 AM, FiveByFive said:

Did they really "turn"on David though? They seemed like they wanted to help him. We know that he is powerful. We also know that he has a mental illness. They weren't wrong and the show has let us know they weren't wrong.

Farouk has tortured David his whole life and murdered his sister like a week ago and yet David's 'friends' let Farouk go and teamed up with him against David who they imprisoned and implied that they were willing to kill him if he didn't do what they said. I'd call that a major betrayal and definitely turning on him.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

Farouk has tortured David his whole life and murdered his sister like a week ago and yet David's 'friends' let Farouk go and teamed up with him against David who they imprisoned and implied that they were willing to kill him if he didn't do what they said. I'd call that a major betrayal and definitely turning on him.

I agree.  I get the impression that Farouk is manipulating David's friends into turning against him.  There is some truth to the idea of David being a villain though, because as justmehere stated, David is emotionally immature (through no real fault of his own).  That, combined with the level of power that he has, makes him extremely dangerous.  "Drugging" Syd and arguably date-raping her is an indication of that, but when you think about all the possibilities, there are a lot bigger atrocities he could be involved in.  So he's really more of a "shades of gray" character - or some might call him a "human being".  Right now though, he's angry and feeling betrayed, and that can't be a good thing.

[superloislane]

28 minutes ago, rmontro said:

There is some truth to the idea of David being a villain though, because as justmehere stated, David is emotionally immature (through no real fault of his own).  That, combined with the level of power that he has, makes him extremely dangerous. 

I would agree he's very dangerous and he has done some shady things, was on the verge of doing worse things and it needed to be dealt with, but he definitely wasn't at the level where his friends should team up against him with his enemy, which is why I'm hoping that Farouk is manipulating them. Especially since it was really dumb for them to deal with it that way - they know David is uber powerful, has a mental illness, could kill them with a snap of his fingers and they have knowledge from the future that he destroys the world, and yet instead of taking a gentle approach towards him and offering him help, they just trapped him in a cage, threw accusations at him and treated him like a criminal. They should have known he'd get pissed off at this and do something stupid - it's all just too dumb for these characters to have done this without some outside influence.

[showme]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

I agree.  I get the impression that Farouk is manipulating David's friends into turning against him.  There is some truth to the idea of David being a villain though, because as justmehere stated, David is emotionally immature (through no real fault of his own).  That, combined with the level of power that he has, makes him extremely dangerous.  "Drugging" Syd and arguably date-raping her is an indication of that, but when you think about all the possibilities, there are a lot bigger atrocities he could be involved in.  So he's really more of a "shades of gray" character - or some might call him a "human being".  Right now though, he's angry and feeling betrayed, and that can't be a good thing.

Not buying this argument!

First of all, when you put someone who has NOT done anything wrong on trial with the intention to kill him, on the pretense that he MIGHT do something bad in the future; that is not justice, that is a lynch mob, and the mob are the real criminals here. You just can't try people for offenses that they HAVE NOT committed.

Second, there is NO date rape. Sydney was not unconscious when they "made love", she made the choice to do it. Was she lacking some information that might have changed her mind? Sure. You might say she was misled or taken advantage of, but you can't say she was raped!

Last but not least, there was no PHYSICAL contact, the "sex" was an illusion took place in Sydney's head, it was not a physical act, as evidenced by one scene showing Sydney ALONE on her bed gyrating her crotch. Last time I checked, inducing a sexual fantasy does NOT constitute rape!

The real despicable people, and the real criminals here , are the so-called "friends" of David. They betrayed him with no justifiable reason. I hope they pay for what they did to David!

Edited June 15, 2018 by showme

[kieyra]

Quote

Last but not least, there was no PHYSICAL contact, the "sex" was an illusion took place in Sydney's head, it was not a physical act, as evidenced by one scene showing Sydney ALONE on her bed gyrating her crotch. Last time I checked, inducing a sexual fantasy does NOT constitute rape!

Yikes. You’re talking about a show where much of what the characters experience doesn’t happen in the “real” world—including David and Syd’s past intimate relationship. You’re talking about a show where Lenny mentioned behind repeatedly raped by the Shadow King when she was just a disembodied prisoner in his disembodied reality. You really can’t play this strange “only physical bodies can be raped” card in the context of this particular show.

Anyway.

Just came to mention the weird cover of Cornflake Girl over the closing credits. Earlier in the season, when Lenny hooks up with her druggie friends, she calls herself the Cornflake Girl, and I wondered at the time if it was a Tori Amos reference. Seems it was. “This is not real, this is not really happening ... you bet your life it is.”

[showme]

4 hours ago, kieyra said:

Yikes. You’re talking about a show where much of what the characters experience doesn’t happen in the “real” world—including David and Syd’s past intimate relationship. You’re talking about a show where Lenny mentioned behind repeatedly raped by the Shadow King when she was just a disembodied prisoner in his disembodied reality. You really can’t play this strange “only physical bodies can be raped” card in the context of this particular show.

Yikes indeed!

Don't try to get it twisted. Inconvenient for people who wants to apply their own standard or interpretations about the term rape, there is a set of defined, well established rules and laws in determine what is rape and what is not. There was no physical contact, Syd was NOT raped.

Edited June 16, 2018 by showme

[voldo2006]

My two cents on episode 11. I'm backing up David 100%. You can't put him on trial for future crimes. Looking into the future is tricky. (I believe this )There isn't just one set future. Time branches off to parallel possible future events. They are just so focused on the one were David destroys everything. By them just capturing him and forcing him to submit to their wishes, could very well have been to turning point that leads David to that future they were so worried about. You could just about tell when he turned into that person they were so worried about. When he was saying "I'm a good person.....I deserve love" there is a point where you can hear voice talking in the back ground, then it goes silence. You can see David expression change. That's when he tells them he's done. I think that was his turning point right there.  I couldn't believe how quick they were to believe Sid and the Shadow King. I love this scene because this is the type of scenario that would happen in the comic books. When the "people in his mind" tell him to go and run but instead says "No.....no....I want to hear you say it" point to Sid. Loved it. As for Division 3, the only thing they really do is capture powerful mutants, lock them away and bring them out when they need them.

[voldo2006]

That was an interesting conversation between David and Farouk when he was capture. First off, Farouk is a master at the mind games. He lost to Charles Xavier ( among the strongest and most powerful telepaths in the Marvel Universe) Interesting how the scene played out. Farouk tell him he try to get David to love him when he was in his mind. I actually think he spent so much time in David's head that he actually fell in love with him. (Like a Father and son relationship) He could have killed David a few different times but he just kept trying to get David to join him. He tried to manipulate David with the characters he used in his mind but couldn't. Basically telling David I know what you did to Sid, (suppressing her memory) but it won't work. Farouk to to with David but It wouldn't work. I love what he tells David.

David - "Physically sick. Every time I look at you, every time I hear your voice, I want to throw up."

Farouk - "Good. Remember that feeling, because soon you will see it in her eyes when she looks at you."

The way David said he was disgusted by Farouk, is the same way Sid would look at David for what he did. Sure enough there is a point where we get a full front face shot of Sid looking right at David. When he told her, "I need you...." She just look at him with no reaction. He realize that Farouk was right. Just my thought on it.

Oh yeah....the Division 3 main boss, basket head, he's all watch Sid get it on alone thru his monitor. LOL

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by voldo2006

[Rap541]

Quote

I agree.  I get the impression that Farouk is manipulating David's friends into turning against him. 

Yeah, I was off put by Farouk being somehow off the hook for the murders of various Division three people, Amy's rather brutal torture and murder, and the whole kidnapping and destruction of Oliver... and did anyone even notice Farouk somehow twisted Melanie to his side?

But I have to be honest. There's been so many side feints and future attacks and fucked up lectures interspaced between weird props and subtitling and "we're fucking with the sound in the episode because its so goddamn artsy" that I am hard pressed to give a shit at this point. 

If David is mentally ill, its really only exacerbated by how NO ONE will have a rational, linear conversation with him. Whether or not he's evil or mentally ill, the reality here is that no one pulled David out of the mental hospital for pure reasons. Everyone wants David as their weapon of choice. There's an interesting story somewhere in this incoherent mess.... I just doubt we'll ever see it.

I know its getting another season and I will likely watch because I love Dan Steven's pretty eyes and the show is random enough that I might get the hot dirty sex scene I want between David and Melanie.... but this show is losing me and I don't think it's because I'm not smart enough or artsy enough to get all the super nuances. I think they're just throwing random shit together because it looks cool or sounds cool. Its the acting talent that is getting this show renewed.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 6/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, kieyra said:

Yikes. You’re talking about a show where much of what the characters experience doesn’t happen in the “real” world—including David and Syd’s past intimate relationship. You’re talking about a show where Lenny mentioned behind repeatedly raped by the Shadow King when she was just a disembodied prisoner in his disembodied reality. You really can’t play this strange “only physical bodies can be raped” card in the context of this particular show.

Anyway.

Just came to mention the weird cover of Cornflake Girl over the closing credits. Earlier in the season, when Lenny hooks up with her druggie friends, she calls herself the Cornflake Girl, and I wondered at the time if it was a Tori Amos reference. Seems it was. “This is not real, this is not really happening ... you bet your life it is.”

Well....if we're going to take it in that direction, then Lenny's a rapist too. When she first comes back to the drug den with, "Buenos tardes, beetches!" New Jeanine was painting that guy's toenails before Lenny called her Cornflake Girl, and promptly got her undivided attention. When Amy manifested in the bedroom the next morning, Lenny says that what she did to her was going to look like a tea party in comparison to the 'Caligula shit' she was going to do next, but it was pretty clear she did some mind mojo on her before getting her into bed. I started watching this show because of Lenny/Aubrey Plaza, but a nice person? Not really, and now that David's helped her escape that 'Caligula shit' may be in the offing after all.