Tom Cavanagh: aka Harrison Wells, Eobard Thawne, etc.

[Lady Calypso]

I really liked the twist, but it just brings up so many questions for me (as someone who doesn't really read comics):

 

So is real Harrison dead-dead? What was that device thing that Eobard had strapped to himself and real Wells? Does that mean Eobard has Wells' memories or was it just to take his face? Can real Wells be somehow resurrected? Is he partially inside Eobard? Will we lose Tom Cavanaugh next season? Will Eobard be forever Wells or will he get to be himself? Is it Cavanaugh or Cavanagh? I know I can look it up, but curious minds need to know!!!!

 

Ok, that last one isn't really related to Wells/Eobard, but....

 

ETA: I'VE BEEN SPELLING TOM'S LAST NAME WRONG! Sorry, Tom Cavanagh. I just instinctively feel like there should be a U in there.

Edited April 1, 2015 by jessied112

[bettername2come]

I loved that he flat-out name dropped the Speed Force in the last episode. And no one was like, "What the heck is he talking about?"

[phoenics]

I loved that he flat-out name dropped the Speed Force in the last episode. And no one was like, "What the heck is he talking about?"

I was so entranced by that whole scene, but a voice in the back of my mind kept thinking - wait - dude you're revealing yourself!!!

Afterward I was like - why didn't ANYONE else think it was cray cray that he was talking about a Speed Force?! Aargh. If Cisco/Caitlin stay dumb, that's just sad.

Wells doesn't seem that stupid - he couldn't help Barry do the vibration thing without mentioning the speed force?

[Perfect Xero]

I was so entranced by that whole scene, but a voice in the back of my mind kept thinking - wait - dude you're revealing yourself!!!

Afterward I was like - why didn't ANYONE else think it was cray cray that he was talking about a Speed Force?! Aargh. If Cisco/Caitlin stay dumb, that's just sad.

Wells doesn't seem that stupid - he couldn't help Barry do the vibration thing without mentioning the speed force?

 

Eobard just got caught up in the moment and let it slip.

 

The others probably just thought that he was speaking metaphorically to get Barry where he needed to be or they'll think he has a new theory about how it is that Barry is able to run so fast.

[KirkB]

Caitlin and Cisco were probably so wrapped up in worrying about Barry and trying to think of ways to help him that they were only half listening to what Wells was actually saying. And even if they did notice they might think he was just making stuff up. It's called the speed force when he comes from but he might have been the one to give them the idea for the name.

Edited April 2, 2015 by KirkB

[pookat]

This latest ep also gave us a clue to the "takes off his glasses" tic that Wells has when he's being massively evil: Thawne didn't wear glasses.

 

Agreed, brilliant performance by Cavanagh.

I'm embarrassed by how attractive I find that gesture.

Aisha Tyler hit the nail on the head at PaleyFest this year when she mentioned (repeatedly) what an appealing jerk Harrison Wells is.

[Lord Malvolio]

I just don't get why he is clearly evil, yet constantly is helping. Caring, knowledgeable, nice and understanding. He appears to be the real Wells at some points, then becomes Thawne at others. I wonder if when he absorbed Wells, he didn't absorb His personality too?

[Trini]

I think it's possible.

 

This new backstory of Wells as a good guy reminds me of the Volkoff character on Season 4 Chuck. He was a villain, but he was disguised as a good guy (for his first episode). However, the 'good' persona was well-liked, so by the end of the season they re-wrote his backstory, and the 'good' persona was his real identity.  Seems like another instance of the writers wanting to have it both ways; and keep a good actor around as much as possible.

 

----------------

So why does Wells/Thawne NEED the Flash? He clearly has his speed powers back. They only showed his powers weakening in ONE episode.

[MarkHB]

I think the powers are unpredictable, and not stable enough for him to be able to time-travel accurately.

[BPOX]

One thing I've noticed on Arrow and Smallville was they seemed to like the kill off the older interesting characters, often introducing and promoting a flatter but prettier character. I don't know if maybe the younger actors were cheaper, or they just think the audience wants as much pretty soap opera as they can pack in.

 

Anyhow, I've just been assuming from the start of the Flash that we would have to lose Harrison and Joe, probably Barry's dad too. I would love to keep Harrison, but I don't think alternate or redemption arc Harrison would be as fun to watch, so I have no real hopes.

[wingster55]

^ When did they do that on Smallville? 

[BPOX]

Lana's aunt disappeared relatively quickly, which was no big deal but I liked her as a minor annoyance. Later we lost Lionel, Bo, and Martha over time. I was seriously bummed to lose Lionel. The the way they wrote Martha off seriously bugged me. I felt like they wanted her house, but wanted her out of it. I feel like the presence of regular characters over 40 helps the world feel more real to me. So on Smallville, I appreciated a more pedestrian back burner plot of the farm finances being in trouble while the plot of the week might be focused on some youth stealing cheerleader. Later Smallville it felt to me like most everyone was between say 20 and 35 and like they would bring in one super hero or villain after another, and love triangle them relentlessly.

 

So to bring it back to topic, one of the big things Harrison does is mentor these guys. Barry has several competing mentors now. But as the show goes on, putting aside the issue of if Harrison is evil or not, the writers probably will have less use for showing Barry's troubled relationship with all his dads. If Barry gets more used to being a hero they probably won't feel they need someone who's patience and emotional distance contrasts with Barry's confusion as much. Joe seems like he's Barry's main dad and Barry's relationship with him could retire comfortably to the background most of the time until needed. Where as I feel like it's an obvious conflict point in the future to have Star Labs to fall under different ownership and have Barry deal with a new boss. So anyhow, Harrison feels to me like he could stay a reoccurring Big Bad, but his days as supportive boss feel numbered.

[Actionmage]

Felicity: Boom. Drop the mic. It's metaphorical because I don't have a real mic.

 

Tom Cavanagh's reactions were neat. I hope that it was a moment of Wells' actual amusement. I can see where it could have been Tom reacting to Emily, but Wells can appreciate Felicity's reaction as well.  Tom Cavanagh has a great smile.

[Trini]

Should we re-title the thread, since the real character is Eobard Thawne?

 

"Harrison Wells as played by Eobard Thawne" :-p

[bettername2come]

I'm so torn. I don't want to see him go. I love Tom Cavanagh and his portrayal of Wells/Thawne. He's so amusing. He's more than just a one-dimensional villain and that's great. On the other hand, I hate him so much! He does care about Cisco and present day Barry, but the smug bastard still tries to kill them! That makes it so much worse! Plus, all the random other people he's killed. 

 

Should we re-title the thread, since the real character is Eobard Thawne?

"Harrison Wells as played by Eobard Thawne" :-p

 

But can we give away major plot points like that in the thread title for people who are catching up on the show?

[Trini]

True, I did think about that a while later after I posted.

 

So from the finale, Thawne's real power seems to be manipulation.

[Chip]

Should we re-title the thread, since the real character is Eobard Thawne?

 

"Harrison Wells as played by Eobard Thawne" :-p

 

Not a bad suggestion depending how season two goes. Let's wait and see.

[Trini]

It's going to be tricky if they introduce the real Harrison Wells as a regular or recurring character.

[tarotx]

Sonething like Character(s) played by Tom Cavanagh Or Something with Reverse Flash.

[FurryFury]

It's going to be tricky if they introduce the real Harrison Wells as a regular or recurring character.

And then it turns out Eobard was faking him all along. But wait! He became the mask and turned good!

Seriously, this is something I expect from this show.

[Kromm]

Because he's finally got some time off, Tom Cavanagh has hooked back up with his old buddy Michael Ian Black to FINALLY do some more lovely "Mike & Tom Eat Snacks" podcasting.

 

Episode 94, out today (snack unknown since I haven't listened to it yet): http://mates.libsyn.com/episode-94

[Trini]

The show never really gave us the reason why Eobard hated the Flash so much, did they? What happened in the future with both of them? There's always the possibility they could bring back Eobard in a later season, but will they? This is probably going to be a dropped plot. I hope Zoom's motivations are better explained.

[phoenics]

Oh - right - because they're bringing back a real Harrison, not Zoom. I wonder which timeline/alt universe this Harrison will come from?

And you're right - we never got to see why Eobard hated Flash so much - my guess would be that he's a megalomaniac psychopath and Barry's Flash foiled one too many of his plans.

But wait - HOW did Eobard and The Flash even meet? Does Flash live a really long time or does he time travel to Eobard's time (or Eobard travels to his?)?

And does Flash still disappear in 2024?

[zannej]

I apologize for the length of this post. I'm new to the show and recently binge-watched it.

 

I remembered Tom as JD's brother on "Scrubs" and thought it was funny to see him playing this character. He really did a fantastic job! I'm not a fan of characters that are just purely evil or purely good, so I really love how they had Eobard be a sociopath hellbent on revenge who grew to care about the people he worked with. I also loved the moment where he was getting the gun out of his secret room and then stopped. He admired Professor Stein and he cared about Ronnie. I think there was also a part of him that enjoyed being the hero. I don't think he ever really thought of himself as the bad guy. In his world, Barry/Flash was the bad guy. Anyway, that moment where he put his hand on the back of his neck and then started asking Gideon about using the tachyon power supply and he was informed that it would push his timeline back. He's been hellbent on getting back home asap and he actually sacrificed some time to save Ronnie and Professor Stein.

 

As an aside (since I just watched it on Youtube) in the scene where we first see "Wells" stand up from the wheelchair in his secret room, I loved the sound/music that played when he stood up.

 

Barry pretty much described my feelings when he said that he knew "Wells" killed his mother but sometimes Wells was so kind and helpful that in the moment he actually liked him. I also liked the moment where we saw the flashback to Barry in a coma and Eobard lamenting that he had wanted to have older Barry in that position so many times and how badly he wanted to kill him, but that not only did he need him, but that he saw no trace of the Barry he knew in the future.

 

I think that Eobard genuinely admired Felicity (and I'm guessing she made enough of a mark on the world that she was known in his time). I loved the moment where she poked him in the arm and said "What's up doc?" and he just looked at his arm to see why she poked him. There were times when I think he genuinely was confused by what people were saying and was also amused.

 

The way his voice cracked slightly shortly before he killed Cisco indicated that he really did care. (By the way, I found it funny that when he killed Stagg he said "Forgive me, Simon. I'm worried that you will think this is personal-- its not".) Now that I think of it, he said "forgive me" to both Cisco and Stagg. Btw, I loved how they staged the scene with Stagg-- when Wells stood up and towers over him menacingly and Stagg says "What the hell!". Getting back on track, I found it interesting that when Barry reset the day and Eobard spoke to him and said things like "We love you" and said the same line about showing him what it was like to have a son-- so these are things he would have said to him either way. I was talking to a friend about it and he said "The scary thing is, he meant it!"

 

Did anyone else notice the sort of puzzled look Eobard had on his face when telling Cisco that he'd grown quite fond of him? As if he didn't understand the emotion. Another thing I noticed was that he talked about choosing between two loved ones being one of the hardest decisions to make-- as if he knew from experience. Instead of getting mad at Cisco for endangering Barry the way he did when Cisco made the cold gun-- which, was an awesome display of Eobard's temper. He really seemed menacing and you could tell it creeped Cisco out.

 

Then we have him later admitting that he actually looked on younger Barry with pride and love (or whatever he perceived as love because he appears to be a sociopath). It's easy to cheer for him because he's so caring toward Cisco, Caitlin, and Barry and he seems truly distraught about the death of Tess.

 

To answer a question I saw posed in this thread about Eobard taking on some of Wells' personality: I'm not sure about personality, but in a deleted scene where Joe West confronts him in the pipeline, Eobard admitted that when he stole Harrison's body he also took his memories and knowledge-- so he genuinely felt sad when he thought about Tess and he also saw the irony in the fact that he felt pain over it but he was the one who caused her death. I think he also seemed to have regretted killing Nora Allen. She was an innocent. Eobard also seemed to care about Hartley Rathbone. I think he could have easily killed Hartley (speaking of Pied Piper, I wonder what he thought was going on when he found Wells on the floor away from his wheelchair-- did he know he could walk all along?)

 

I wish we could have seen more about what the reporter had gathered on Wells and why he thought he was a sociopath. He said he followed him, so I wonder how Wells got around. Does he have someone to drive him or does he have a vehicle rigged for handicap use where he can control it with his hands? It appears that when he rides in the van he must store his wheelchair in the back while he gets into a seat. I sort of wish we'd had a scene where it showed him moving from his chair to another surface while pretending to be paralyzed. I have to say that Tom did a very good job of keeping his legs still for filming-- although I did notice a few slips-- a slight movement of the foot or shift of the leg. The most notable one for me was when in one scene his feet were apart and the next moment his right foot was next to his left foot and tilted over (I'll have to eventually get a screenshot, but it was in episode 2 about 37 minutes in). But, movement is not necessarily a gaffe since he was only pretending to be paralyzed.

 

Which brings me to something I was wondering about:

We know that the team realized that Eobard feigned paralysis to throw people off (making it seem impossible for him to be the reverse flash) and used the chair to charge himself, but why would he think people would suspect him in the first place? Also, I wonder if he was ever really injured in the particle accelerator "accident". We saw that sometimes when he lost his connection with the speed force he fell down and was unable to walk. So, is it possible that he was actually injured and was temporarily paralyzed? I know Caitlin was probably too devastated about Ronnie to really examine him and no one would think to question him if he said he was paralyzed. I'm surprised he didn't try to free himself up a bit more by having Cisco or Caitlin work on something that would appear to reconnect his nerves or form a bridge and allow him to walk and he could alter it to power himself. Today's scientists have actually made it possible for people with paralysis to bypass the spine and have wires run directly from the brain to the rest of the body- it allowed a quadriplegic man to move his arms. Surely Caitlin and/or Cisco would have heard of that and wanted to suggest it to Dr. Wells. Although, maybe because of the sporadic weakness he still needed the chair somewhat? I dunno.

 

I found it interesting that they established him as a man of routine (at least as far as the team knows) and both times we saw him enter his house he immediately got up from the chair, walked to his bar, sighed heavily, took off his glasses, and poured himself a drink. I remember in one episode he rubbed his face and seemed very tired. I imagine it was stressful for him to maintain the facade.

 

Going back to the deleted scene, Joe asked Eobard if he had family/loved ones in the future that he wanted to get back to and he said there were. So, even though there are people he loves in the past timeline, he knows they will be dead by his time (he may even know when and how they die)-- his line to Cisco about living among the dead was telling. I also found it interesting that one moment he apologized to Cisco that he was affected by the particle accelerator and then said it was a gift given out of love. Although, I'm guessing he was apologizing because the effects were frightening Cisco. I really will miss the whole Wells/Cisco dynamic because it was a great relationship. I would have thought that Eobard would have jumped into his time machine and booked asap, but he took the time to thank Cisco. I loved the look on his face when he thought he was finally going home-- but then Barry came crashing through. That was a WTF moment for me.

 

Despite being the villain and having killed Barry's mom, I still liked Eobard (as portrayed by Tom). But when he killed the real Dr Wells-- it was hard to like him. Wells was so terrified and confused while Eobard was just so cold and brutal. I do think that the Wells persona did soften him a bit. And I actually cheered when he gave Eiling to Grodd because Eiling was such a creep. I wonder how much of his kindness was a facade, because he was a complete dick to Eddie. I did wonder about why he was so mean to Eddie. You'd think he would want to treat family a little better. I'm guessing that in the original timeline since the particle accelerator wouldn't go off until 2020, then the purse-snatching of Iris wouldn't have happened then and Eddie wouldn't have come to her rescue. He may have ended up with the dancer (Kay Rogers?) instead. Maybe it was because Eddie was trying to do the usual "you won't get away with this" tough talk and Eobard wanted to take him down a peg, but I do wonder if there was more to it than that. (My personal headcanon was that Eddie didn't excel in his career because he focused more on his family and being a loving husband and father once he got married and had kids-- putting family before career; or maybe Eddie died shortly after his kid(s) was/were born). I guess Eobard never fathomed that his words might slightly encourage Eddie to commit suicide.

 

I would still love to find out somehow what it was that Barry did in the future that made Eobard hate him. Right now my guess is that (as in some iterations of the comic books) Barry didn't have the same level of compassion and willingness to bend the rules. Perhaps he was a rightfighter who was too rigid to give people leeway. Barry being alive when Eobard was born seems odd unless he just had a prolonged lifespan because of his powers OR when he disappeared in 2024 (which I'm assuming was the Crisis of Infinite Earths?) he went into the future and accidentally pissed in Eobard's gluten free cereal.

 

I know they didn't want to drag the story on too long, but I wish they had made the Eobard/Wells thing last a bit longer so we could have learned more about what motivated him. Did he have a wife in the future? Was he in a situation like Barry where he had a female friend he'd never confessed his love to? (In the comic books he fell for a reporter named Rose who did not reciprocate-- he went back in time to murder her fiance and killed all of her boyfriends. When she rejected him, he went back in time and shook the shit out of her to give her brain damage so she would never become a reporter).

 

I admit that I thought it was incredibly stupid of Barry to stop Eobard from returning to the future. I didn't quite get why. I mean, I know he was mad that Eobard killed his mother, but he was given the opportunity to set it right (even if doing so gave Eobard a chance to return home). Barry could just have easily said "no thanks" and still gone back in time to save his mom without agreeing to let Eobard return. So to literally burst his bubble with just seconds left, seemed unusually harsh. Granted, Eobard did some horrible things, but it was just so sad. I could understand his rage at the end. What did Barry think was going to happen if he stopped him from returning? And then poor Eddie... I hope they find a way to bring him back next season. Maybe we will find out who he marries or knocks up to spawn the Thawne line. (Of course, I had serious problems with Barry agreeing to go back to rescue his mother at the risk of destroying the universe if things went wrong).

 

Btw, thank you to the people who mentioned the Mike and Tom eat snacks thing. I found a few youtube videos and they were hilarious. I had enough free time that while watching the show, I paid attention to how often Wells/Eobard ate or drank (I wonder what beverage he had in that thermos). I found it amusing in the finale when he has an almost half full cup one moment and the next it was empty and then the cup was gone and then he had a french fry in his hand. For some reason I now want to see a Cisco and Wells eat snacks scene. In one of the videos there was something called Twiglets that apparently smelled horrible. Tom was passing them out to audience members saying "I'm not asking you to eat it, I'm asking you to smell it" and then said "It smells like my honeymoon". LOL. And now I'm imagining Eobard/Wells trying 21st century food for the first time and trying to figure out what he liked and hated. Caitlin mentioned that he ate two hardboiled eggs for breakfast every day.

 

One last thing: There seems to be some sort of inconsistency-- Tess Morgan was referred to as the wife of Harrison Wells. The beach scenes showed Wells wearing a wedding band. He told Joe that he and Tess were married to the work as much as to each other. Later on Joe referred to Tess as Harrison's "girlfriend" and then I think someone else said something about how they were going to get married. So, I'm confused about that. Were they married? Did they elope or something? Did the writers forget?

Edited November 3, 2015 by zannej

[Trini]

One last thing: There seems to be some sort of inconsistency-- Tess Morgan was referred to as the wife of Harrison Wells. The beach scenes showed Wells wearing a wedding band. He told Joe that he and Tess were married to the work as much as to each other. Later on Joe referred to Tess as Harrison's "girlfriend" and then I think someone else said something about how they were going to get married. So, I'm confused about that. Were they married? Did they elope or something? Did the writers forget?

 

Hmmm; good question.

 

---

Also,

 

 

Should we re-title the thread, since the real character is Eobard Thawne?

Not a bad suggestion depending how season two goes. Let's wait and see.

 

It's going to be tricky if they introduce the real Harrison Wells as a regular or recurring character.

 

It looks like this situation is finally here.

[bettername2come]

I loved the moment where she poked him in the arm and said "What's up doc?" and he just looked at his arm to see why she poked him. There were times when I think he genuinely was confused by what people were saying and was also amused.

 

He did the same thing when Cisco leaned on him for the Team Flash picture. Apparently people are less touchy in the future.

It looks like this situation is finally here.

 

Eobard, Harrison, and Tom Cavanagh?

Edited November 4, 2015 by bettername2come

[zannej]

I sometimes wonder if it was just surreal for Eobard to have the "dead people" touching him. There was a perfect opportunity for a Sixth Sense joke somewhere in the pipeline scene where he said he was surrounded by the dead. Its kind of funny because with the people he's killed and evil he's done, you wouldn't think people would sympathize-- but despite the sociopathic way he just excuses murder, it might be a bit freaky to be surrounded by people that in your own timeline are long dead. I think he never thought he would grow attached to any of them. Something else I thought of: Eobard is referred to as a sociopath and seems to have a very casual attitude about killing people, yet he refers to the time he's currently in as "these barbaric times". It makes me wonder what his timeline was like and whether or not killing was thought of so casually or if its just his way of coping. Maybe it was something taught to him by his family?

 

Thanks for mentioning the other time Eobard/Wells reacted to someone touching him. It did seem like an odd reaction. I don't know if its that they aren't touchy in the future or if Eobard's family isn't touchy, or if he's kept people at such a distance for so long that he's no longer accustomed to being touched as much.

 

Another thought I had-- somehow he beat himself up and probably had the hologram rigged to really sell it to his audience-- but I wonder how he managed to keep his legs still and pretend to have no feeling while Caitlin patched him up (unless he said he has some diminished sensation but still can't control his legs). I suppose if he inadvertently moved he could explain it away as spasticity.

 

Maybe to avoid confusion we can have a separate thread for Eobard as portrayed by Matt Letscher? Or would that be too much of a pain?

 

PS. Here is the deleted scene where Eobard talks about stealing Wells' body.

Edited November 4, 2015 by zannej

[zannej]

I know people have probably seen this, but I'm leaving this here for anyone who missed it. Nice hair.

Edited November 8, 2015 by zannej

[Kromm]

Geez! Just when you think Tom Cavanaugh can't find another layer, he gives you about five more!  Bless Tom Cavanaugh for the work he puts into this thing and giving an Emmy-level performance.

An award he won't get because they don't reward this kind of show with acting awards.

[scarynikki12]

I went ahead and changed the name of his thread so that any and all characters that Tom Cavanagh plays may be discussed in one location.  This includes Earth 1 Wells, Earth 2 Wells, Thawne-as-Wells, and so on.  As always, only discuss his characters AFTER they've appeared on screen.  With the 52 other dimensions revealed, we may very well see many more Wells characters, or none at all.  Keep discussion to what we know and enjoy!

 

As always, feel free to ask questions to Chip and scarynikki12.

[zannej]

The whole story about discovering that he was an enemy of Barry so he decided to fight him didn't satisfactorily explain to me why Eobard hated The Flash *that* much. Then I remembered the speech Eobard gave to Eddie about imagining your friends, family, job, life, etc and then it was all gone.

So, what if the remnant of Eobard that survived was traveling in the timestream and when he went home, the events that happened in the season 1 finale had taken effect. His entire family line was gone. His whole life had been erased from history but he still existed and remembered things from before the changes. He might not have been aware of what caused the changes but he also probably found out somehow that the Flash was responsible for it. Maybe he even believed that The Flash had deliberately killed Eddie (hence the kidnapping of Eddie for "insurance").

I could see that as a more valid reason for Eobard to truly hate the Flash and want to kill him as a child-- because he might have believed that killing him would prevent him from causing Eddie's death and wiping out Eobard's family and life as he knew it.

[zannej]

Spideyfan over on the IMDB had an interesting explanation of why Eobard didn't kill future Barry in the last episode. Basically, he weighed the pros and cons and the risk of not getting home due to killing him was higher than the benefits of killing him.

 

Something else I just thought of about his motivations and attitude. He told Barry that he was born 136 years in the future. That would be 2151. Rip Hunter's family in Legends of Tomorrow were killed in 2166. So, Eobard would have been 14 or 15 then. If he's from a timeline in which Vandal Savage did take over, then he would have been exposed to the war as a young teenager. That could have left a lasting impression on him and could have greatly affected his perception of right and wrong.

 

Although, in some ways he acts like a spoiled brat who can't stand it when he doesn't get his way so he has a tantrum... But, maybe something traumatic happened in his childhood to affect his sanity.

[Trini]

Cavanugh and Kreisberg talk about crafting the different versions of Wells.:

Quote

Kreisberg said he saw Cavanagh's thoughtful take on the Earth-2 Wells kick in as soon as he was presented with the first scripts of the season. "One of the most interesting things was when we were writing the beginning of this season, we have the table read, and Tom had basically cut half his lines out. He speaks a lot less. The Wells from last season could fake being a human being. He's verbose and he liked to talk and he liked to be a showman, and this Wells had no time for people. He lived in his head. So it was a learning experience for us as writers that sort of came with the other direction, because Tom really created the Wells for this season... He's a jerk, and yet he's doing everything he's doing because he loves his daughter more than anything in the world. We love that dichotomy."

[zannej]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Cavanugh and Kreisberg talk about crafting the different versions of Wells.:

Thanks for sharing that.

I think it actually makes sense that E2 Wells wasn't trying to make friends or endear himself to people. He just wanted to stop Zoom, get his daughter back, and go home. All he thought he needed was for Barry to get fast enough to catch/stop Zoom. I think he just didn't want to let himself get close to anyone on E2 because he didn't want to form attachments.

Eobard needed to gain their trust and had to spend more time with them. I also think that having been stuck there for so long made him really need to connect with people even though he knew it wouldn't last. He grew to genuinely care about some of them, but he had to keep telling himself they'd been dead for centuries to make it easier to depart. Even though he desperately wanted to go home, it was clear he was going to miss them.

Harry wanted to protect himself from the pain of loss if he grew attached. Eobard already knew that they would die (possibly even knew how and when they would die).

I just wish Tom would stop with the gruff/whispery voice though.

[Argenta]

On 05/05/2016 at 11:24 AM, zannej said:

I also wonder which iteration of Eobard will be on LoT. Will it be the one who posed as Wells all those years and actually made it home? Or is it one prior to that and the events in LoT only add to his hatred of Barry? Or is it the version that we saw in Flashpoint?

This interests me. One of the things I found really compelling about Wells/Thawne in season 1 was the duality of his character; he was the 'villain' and had done some dreadful things, and would stop at nothing to get home, but had become genuinely attached to the younger people he worked with and mentored. The prime example of that, of course, is in the scene where he murders Cisco - two seconds after telling him, with real emotion in his eyes and voice, that he's been like a son to him. (I appreciated that that line was reprised later on, both the in re-set timeline, and with Harry-posing-as-Thawne/Wells.)

The other one is when he's locked in the metahuman prison and tells Barry that where he used to feel only rage and hatred, he's learned what it is to look on him with pride and love. I choked up a bit at both those scenes. 

Tom did an exceptional job of portraying this dichotomy. So far, we've seen Matt playing Eobard as the pre-Wells version who straight-up hates Barry and wants him dead. And that has plenty of its own appeal, because Matt is really bringing it with the dedicated malice and the more volatile aspects of Eobard's personality.  But I would really love for him to get the opportunity to play Eobard with the added nuance of having gotten to know Barry & co. personally and having all those years of memories of them.  

For this reason, I hope that we somehow get to see a post-Wells Eobard in LoT. Surely the writers can find a way to spin that?

[Shallow post-script alert: just realised Matt's Eobard has freckles. I find that unexpectedly cute and endearing on such a dangerous villain.)

Edited October 11, 2016 by Argenta

[phoenics]

I too would really like to see a post-Wells Eobard (played by Matt) in LoT.  Just to see some of the confliction there - but it feels a little like Matt added a bit of that to Eobard in Flashpoint when he said, "And I hate you.  And I sometimes wonder which of us is right."

There was an undercurrent of something there - I still wish we knew WHY he hated Barry so much.  Was he a villain Flash stopped?  Was he like Eobard in the comics, who used to look up to Barry and then found out they were enemies?  I'd really like to see layers.

[zannej]

Well, he did say that he was a fan of the Flash and wanted to become him and then found out they were destined to be enemies. But for some reason that didn't sit well with me as motivation for the extreme lengths to which Eobard went. I think there had to be something more to it-- although, I did note that in season one, Wellsobard declined to tell him why and I wasn't sure if it was because he realized it wouldn't make sense to Barry (and would probably enrage Barry to the point of not being willing to help him) or that he just didn't want to talk about it. I hope it was the latter.

One thing he was very good at in the Wells persona was manipulating the younger people who looked up to him. He had less success with people closer to his own age. I don't think Eobard ever really fit well with his peers, but he had experience as a professor, so I think he was good at the teacher/student dynamic. I do suspect that he had a hard time treating people as equals because he probably didn't consider others as his equals. It's a shame because I think Eobard is probably a very good teacher/mentor and could have had a very good relationship with Barry if not for the whole sworn enemy thing.

I would definitely love to see post-Wells Eobard on the show. Tom suggested that he might return to the Wellsobard persona at some point, so I'm guessing flashback or time travel again. I wonder what would have happened if Barry had learned that the person he knew as Wells had traveled in time (but not realized he was RF) and that he couldn't tell him things because it might alter the future & that he needed Barry's help to get home. Without knowing the part "Wells" played in his mother's death, would he have been willing to help him go back to the future so he could get out of the chair? But, then, I think that Eobard's ego and desire for revenge was such that he would probably want Barry to know had helped his mother's killer.

I'm really curious to see how they resolve the current issues where it seems the version of RF who went to kill Nora and got stuck no longer existed.

[Argenta]

On 10/11/2016 at 3:25 AM, phoenics said:

I too would really like to see a post-Wells Eobard (played by Matt) in LoT.  Just to see some of the confliction there - but it feels a little like Matt added a bit of that to Eobard in Flashpoint when he said, "And I hate you.  And I sometimes wonder which of us is right."

There was an undercurrent of something there - I still wish we knew WHY he hated Barry so much.  Was he a villain Flash stopped?  Was he like Eobard in the comics, who used to look up to Barry and then found out they were enemies?  I'd really like to see layers.

Agreed. That line stood out to me because it was the first time we've seen a hint of ambiguity, uncertainty even, from this Eobard regarding his vendetta against Barry. His stated motivations for hating the Flash aren’t entirely convincing to me , either…they’re not a result of anything Barry did or didn’t do, they’re pretty much entirely in Eobard’s mind. Becoming someone’s arch-nemesis because you think you’re supposed to is just circular reasoning at best.

It’s kind of sad that two such intelligent and powerful people are stuck fighting each other endlessly, especially when we’ve seen, courtesy of Thawne-Wells, just how good they can be working together.

They really need to sit down and talk the whole thing out over a huge bowl of curly fries. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Argenta

[Argenta]

So, HR. 

I can agree with other posters that he is annoying in the sense that he's clearly intended to get on the other characters' nerves. But I find him really entertaining and endearing. I just like his unfettered enthusiasm and quirkiness.

[legaleagle53]

48 minutes ago, Argenta said:

So, HR. 

I can agree with other posters that he is annoying in the sense that he's clearly intended to get on the other characters' nerves. But I find him really entertaining and endearing. I just like his unfettered enthusiasm and quirkiness.

I agree.  As I said recently in the Quotes thread in response to a comment by @Trini:

Quote

 2 HOURS AGO, TRINI SAID:

Pretty sure Cavanugh is ad-libbing half his lines now:

HR: "You think I took them? I didn't take them, what do I need cuffs for? I just got to this Earth, I came alone. I haven't met anyone yet, it's going to take a while even when I do meet them to get to the cuffs stage!"

If he is, he's doing a bang-up job of it.  And he's definitely got HR down to where I can understand why the rest of the team can barely stand him. HR is annoying as hell with his habit of constantly agreeing with the last person who spoke while at the same time parroting that person's words as if they were his own original ideas, as well as his lame-ass attempts at humor.  Five minutes with HR would make me want to either rock him to sleep with a real rock or else have Caitlin use him for target practice for her powers.  I imagine that his business partner (and Earth-19 in general) must have breathed a heavy sigh of relief and shouted "Good riddance!" when he moved to Earth-1.

Having said that, I have to admit that I'd miss Tom if the show got rid of HR.  Yes, the character is annoying, but Tom is a great actor and is giving the show just the right amount of humor by showing us how much of a tool HR is compared to the Earth-2 Wells.  So HR can stay for now, I guess.

Edited November 18, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Argenta]

22 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Having said that, I have to admit that I'd miss Tom if the show got rid of HR.  Yes, the character is annoying, but Tom is a great actor and is giving the show just the right amount of humor by showing us how much of a tool HR is compared to the Earth-2 Wells.  So HR can stay for now, I guess.

Interesting comparison with Harry. They're opposites in many ways - Harry was terse whereas HR can't seem to stop talking. Harry was unsociable and didn't have time for people whereas HR is in everyone's faces trying to be friendly (I loved his abortive attempt at a team-building exercise). Harry was stand-offish while HR is a major flirt. 

I can see having a HR around in real life would drive you crazy, but I really like him onscreen. Given that the version of Cisco we have now is on a downer, someone needs to bring the bubbliness.

I also admire the way Tom has given each of his Wells distinctive voices. 

[Trini]

I like Cavanugh, and I get that the showrunners want to keep him around, but now they're just being silly about it. They should just bump him down to recurring. It's especially annoying that this version of Wells isn't even that useful.

[Mellowyellow]

Tom Cavanagh is one of the main reasons why I watch this show. I love that they are bringing him back every season in different form!

[legaleagle53]

On 11/19/2016 at 4:57 PM, Trini said:

I like Cavanagh, and I get that the showrunners want to keep him around, but now they're just being silly about it. They should just bump him down to recurring. It's especially annoying that this version of Wells isn't even that useful.

But aside from the very needed dose of comic relief, he does have a usefulness as an outsider because he can see things from a more objective point of view and actually can come up with quite a bit of wisdom once he drops the trying-too-hard-to-be-cute shtick.  He was the one who reminded Cisco how the team was able to track Captain Cold down, and he also provided Joe with a needed bit of perspective regarding Wally.  Yeah, he's annoying and he tries way too hard to be cute and funny, but I would miss him if he were gone.  I think he'll eventually earn the team's respect.

Edited November 28, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Kromm]

re: on the subject if Tom is ad-libbing a lot with this version of Wells...

I think so. Why? Because if you listen to Mike & Tom Eat Snacks, which is ALL ab-libbed, the version of Wells we are getting is just like a lot of what Tom is like on that podcast. 

[Trini]

On 11/19/2016 at 6:57 PM, Trini said:

I like Cavanugh, and I get that the showrunners want to keep him around, but now they're just being silly about it. They should just bump him down to recurring. It's especially annoying that this version of Wells isn't even that useful.

Well, newest Wells is slightly more useful but redundant; but I still feel they to get make Cavanagh recurring if they not willing to let him go.

So, what are the chances that Tom. C gets tired of doing that accent at some point, and we find out that Sherloque isn't French, or they just bring in an entirely new wells? That's my prediction.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Well, newest Wells is slightly more useful but redundant; but I still feel they to get make Cavanagh recurring if they not willing to let him go.

 

He's triply redundant considering that they have a police detective, a private investigator and an investigative reporter on their team. But let's ignore all that to make room for the white man. See exactly zero percent of fandom complain that the show doesn't need another investigator when it can't manage the 3 that they already have.

[Trini]

I just realized that there was no announcement about Tom C. directing this season. He's done at least one episode for the past 3 seasons, and they usually spread the word far in advance if it's one of the actors.

[Trini]

I just realized; in six seasons, the show hasn't really explored or shown us Reverse Flash's origin story. They've mentioned it in dialog, but we've never seen the future he came from, or what he was like before he got powers or became evil. We still really don't know much at all about the hows and whys of his initial feud with The Flash ('his' Flash).

Considering how much they like going back to this character, I think it would be a good story to tell. I know I'd prefer seeing his history than yet another implausible return (and escape).

I mean, the Crisis story got botched because of the crossover, so this would be something that ties into and expands the show's mythology that was set up the first season.

[Starry]

I want a Reverse Flash origin story too but they need Matt Letscher for that.