Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Trini]

This one is even worse, for me, and quite telling.

 

Well, this brings up something I had noted in the gender thread on TWoP; even if the lead of a animated film is female, most if not all of her supporting characters will be male. And villains (and their supporting characters) tend to be male too.

 

Toy Story 2 seems to be missing from that graph, though. Jesse was a significant character in that one.

 

ETA: Interesting that Tangled managed to get a fairly even percentage with only two notable female characters. I guess they did a lot of talking!

Edited April 11, 2016 by Trini

[vibeology]

I don't think anything here is surprising, sadly. There was a study a while back from The Geena Davis Institute for Gender in Media that found for men, as soon as something is around 20% women, men perceive that as being 50-50. That's pretty much backed up here. The men (because statistically, its mostly men) writing these stories probably thought that they'd done a very good job representing both men and women. Literally, we cannot expect change until there are more women behind the scenes writing and directing because even men who want to do better do not perceive the issue the same way women do.

Edited April 11, 2016 by vibeology

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Ew, that makes me feel kind of sick to look at.

 

As it should, obviously. Boys are just so icky, after all, and what if you catch their cooties? You'd be nowhere good, believe you me.

[Trini]

Not sure what your point is, Cobalt.

[JBC344]

Considering all the talk we are hearing about Nicole Beharie and her treatment on Sleep Hollow and the "racism" behind it,  the following is great to hear.

 

Tessa Thompson has been cast as Chris Hemsworth's love interest in the new Thor movie.  She will also be a recurring character in future Marvel movies.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/creed-star-tessa-thompson-joining-876760

[vibeology]

I like Tessa so I'm excited for her but the best part is no more boring Natalie Portman. I never could warm up to her Jane at all so I'm so ready for some new characters.

[Ms Blue Jay]

#AsianTwitter is going in H.A.M. about the whitewashing in Ghost in the Shell and Doctor Strange movies.  I don't know these movies so I will just show you links from Google.

 

http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/marvel-tries-to-explain-away-their-whitewashing-of-doctor-strange-ancient-one

 

https://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/06/01/hollywoods-strange-erasure-of-asian-characters/

 

http://www.themarysue.com/ghost-in-the-shell-whitewashing-complex/

 

http://www.hitfix.com/movies/doctor-strange

Edited April 14, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[ribboninthesky1]

I totally understand why - Hollywood learned NOTHING from Avatar: The Last Airbender. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by ribboninthesky1

[xaxat]

I wonder how many fanboys who are all "There shouldn't be any black/brown people in fantasy movies because there weren't any in Arthurian legend!" are now "Scarlett Johansson is totally unacceptable for a science fiction role about a Japanese woman!"

 

I also wonder if Benedict Cumberbatch told Tilda Swinton "Hey, you're probably going to take some crap for taking this role. I speak from experience!"

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's kind of weird how they're even 2 different people

[galax-arena]

What I hate is that we're seeing the same tired questions about why it's wrong to whitewash characters when it's an American adaptation. I trust that I don't need to spell out here why that's messed up lol.

[Ambrosefolly]

I wonder how many fanboys who are all "There shouldn't be any black/brown people in fantasy movies because there weren't any in Arthurian legend!" are now "Scarlett Johansson is totally unacceptable for a science fiction role about a Japanese woman!"

 

I also wonder if Benedict Cumberbatch told Tilda Swinton "Hey, you're probably going to take some crap for taking this role. I speak from experience!"

I don't think the fanboys were a bunch of racists that hated ethnics. I think they are purists that don't like race changes, especially to major characters, so it totally lines up with hating whitewashing Japanese manga or anything else. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

LOL, what's an ethnic?  

 

This guy's Twitter thread about Ghost in the Shell is very cool:  https://twitter.com/jontsuei/status/720803388355530753

 

Unfortunately, the woman who did this Youtube video is getting a barrage of threats and harassment - according to her, all from white men

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[galax-arena]

'Ghost in the Shell' producers reportedly tested VFX that would make Scarlett Johansson, white actors appear Asian

 

Uh... 

[BatmanBeatles]

Oh no!

[AimingforYoko]

'Ghost in the Shell' producers reportedly tested VFX that would make Scarlett Johansson, white actors appear Asian

 

Uh... 

As I asked about the Martyrs remake: How much cocaine was needed to make this seem like a good idea?

[Danny Franks]

Fanboys (or anyone else) complaining about Scarlett Johansson not being the right ethnicity for Ghost in the Shell can do one. I can't remember ever seeing a Japanese anime movie where the characters actually looked Japanese. They always look like they're Westerners, and Ghost in the Shell was no different, as far as I can recall.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Danny Franks

[galax-arena]

Fanboys (or anyone else) complaining about Scarlett Johansson not being the right ethnicity for Ghost in the Shell can do one. I can't remember ever seeing a Japanese anime movie where the characters actually looked Japanese. They always look like they're Westerners, and Ghost in the Shell was no different, as far as I can recall.

The Face of the Other

Racial markings in manga, therefore, are generally relative. By contrast, an American comic book set in Japan or China would most likely portray every character with stereotyped racial signifiers (and probably with contrived accents, as well). It may be that Westerners, accustomed to non-relative, standardized racial markers, are baffled by the Japanese system of relative signification, in which a single artist may portray a Chinese character one way in one story (set in Japan), and very differently in another (set in China).

tl;dr - They look like that to you because you are from the West and are used to seeing white as the default. Japanese people have no problems identifying those characters as Japanese. 

 

I don't think it's really an objective given that this character is supposed to be white:

Edited April 15, 2016 by galax-arena

[Danny Franks]

That's interesting, thanks for the info. It makes a lot of sense, and I don't doubt that Japanese viewers can identify characters as Japanese. But I don't quite see how it works in all cases. Such as with characters who have blue or green eyes, which are very common in anime. Because those traits are not as ambiguous and lacking in racial signifiers.

 

But I would argue that the style in which these characters are drawn adheres more to Western stereotypes, as demonstrated here:

 

 

And this would make sense, given Japan's strong connections with the USA, and their exposure to American culture. So you've got the likes of Sailor Moon, Fist of the North Star, Ghost in the Shell etc, which follow this style, but then there are movies like Jin-Roh (which I found while doing a bit of reading around your information), which present what would be more identifiable to me as Japanese characters:

 

 

The differences are fairly subtle, but I definitely see them. I feel like I'd identify this character as Japanese. Of course, when you want to sell your movie around the world, making the characters racially ambiguous and able to be accepted by a wide audience only makes sense. But it does seem like a subject that requires a lot more thought....

[Athena]

And this would make sense, given Japan's strong connections with the USA, and their exposure to American culture. So you've got the likes of Sailor Moon, Fist of the North Star, Ghost in the Shell etc, which follow this style, but then there are movies like Jin-Roh (which I found while doing a bit of reading around your information), which present what would be more identifiable to me as Japanese characters:

 

The thing about anime is that even though the characters are not styled to be Japanese, the Japanese viewing audience accepts that the characters are Japanese unless told otherwise. This happens often. Sailor Moon is a good example of because even though most of the senshi do not look characteristically Japanese, the characters lead very normal Japanese teenage girl lives when not being superheroines. It's one of the things that made the show popular; it had identifiable and relatable themes of friendship of young women.  When Mina/Venus (who is blonde) talks about living in England on exchange, no one questions her being Caucasian because she isn't. Japanese anime does tend to adopt a lot of the Western aesthetics (especially European) in the architecture, interior design, costuming, etc., but not always on the look of the characters. That can also be very exaggerated.

[ribboninthesky1]

From the Doctor Strange thread:

 

For me, the situation is a little like casting Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily in Pan. While the original character as written was racially problematic, I don't see casting a white person as rectifying the problem, just avoiding it. Instead of backing away from the issue, making your film less diverse in the process, why not meet challenge of figuring out how to write/perform this Asian character in a way that's three-dimensional and not stereotypical/uncomfortable?

 

Hat tip to angora for great summation. Some of the discussion on the thread reminded me of something that I've often noticed...

 

It was probably inevitable, but one of the things I sometimes find disheartening in online racial discourse is the notion that providing multiple sides of an issue is being overly "PC" or "minorities just can't win because they have to represent all things to their people." To me, that's not the point of circumspection.  Yes, some opinions can get ridiculous, but that's a possibility with any debate.  I've reconsidered my POV on some topics because I read various, sometimes conflicting, perspectives on race and ethnicity on film (and TV).  It's not always about one "side" being "right" as much as bringing to light just how much the Anglophilic, Westernized film lens distorts and/or suppresses the narratives of those who don't fit into that scope.  

 

For example, I'm not Japanese, so I found the Twitter thread that Ms Blue Jay linked to about Ghost in the Shell interesting and a perspective I never considered, even while in general agreement about the whitewashing of the film. Also, the link galax-arena provided about racial markings in manga was also enlightening because, again, not a perspective I considered before.  Anyway, I appreciate the discussion.   

Edited April 16, 2016 by ribboninthesky1

[Ms Blue Jay]

When a POV threatens somebody, they may fight it with a black or white shut-down or hyperbolic argument.  It's all or nothing - no nuance.  But you're right -- these issues have nuances.    The arguments you see on social media like "Didn't you ever think that maybe Scarlett is the best actor for the role?"  Or "Did you ever think that there are no good Japanese actors?"  or "So we have to cast minorities even if they're bad for the role?" are such dumbing down of the issue.  Same thing happened with #OscarsSoWhite.

 

I saw a great tweet today.  So good that I screencapped it:

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

Welp, you knew that the defense of the casting by the movie's director was coming sooner or later :)

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/16/ghost-shell-scarlett-johnasson-casting-max-landis?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

 

His defense is that only a handful of actors can get movies made, and they're all white.

But isn't he, an uber-privileged son of a famous director who gets everything handed to him, the perfect person to change that?

 

Whatever... according to other people in this biz the guy is a wank anyway.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Trini]

And as long as Hollywood keeps on casting whites in these roles, keeps perpetuating that mindset, there never will be any Asian A-listers.

[Athena]

And as long as Hollywood keeps on casting whites in these roles, keeps perpetuating that mindset, there never will be any Asian A-listers.

 

I know we all LOVE Aaron Sorkin around here, but I particularly ADORED him when he revealed his reluctance about adapting Flash Boys in the Sony hack emails:

 

 

“The protagonist is Asian-American (Actually Asian-Canadian) and there aren’t any Asian movie stars.”

 

So let's not even try, Hollywood.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Nice point under that EW article by somebody:

 

A virtually unknown Indian-American actor was cast in the lead of The Jungle Book and that movie is doing well. So saying that an A-list actor is the only way for Ghost In A Shell to do well in theaters doesn't hold water for me.

 

People will always come in and say "There are already built in fanbases for The Jungle Book/ Star Wars so it's totally different scenarios."   I guess the GITS fanbase is not big enough.   There will always be detractors who make up a bunch of BS bullshit reasons to justify Scarlett getting cast.  If you couldn't get the film greenlit without Scarlett being cast, then why do you need to make that movie?  I think, and hope, that it will bomb anyway.

 

Article, How "Nina" (as in Simone) became a Disaster Movie"

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kateaurthur/how-nina-became-a-disaster-movie#.jdqDqpPbO

Edited April 17, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

This article is incredible.  I've loved the author's tweets about the issue as well.

 

Why Does Hollywood Keep Disrespecting Melissa McCarthy?
By Mark Harris

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/time-to-start-appreciating-melissa-mccarthy.html?mid=twitter_vulture

Edited April 17, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Julia]

With the exception of St Vincent and an episode or two of her series, I've never been tempted to see one of her movies and don't expect to.

But you know what? I rarely see new comedies these days, because the industry has apparently been taken over by comedies about dull, shiftless, ordinary-looking, unpleasant zhlubs (why yes, I am looking at you, Ben Stiller and Seth Rogen, the more conventionally attractive but noisomely slimy Seth MacFarlane, and back to John Belushi and Jerry Lewis) getting the girl, the gold watch and everything. And the girl has to be way above average.

Not, mind you, because in the course of the movie they rise above their less pleasant qualities and become someone who's earned respect, who it might be rewarding for a woman to be involved with, but because they want it so bad, and that's all it takes.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If Melissa McCarthy has managed to carve out a career for herself where people will go to the theater to watch a woman be the brutish wish-fulfillment id of the story, I say good on her, and I wish her well making a long series of very successful terrible movies I'm never going to see.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Julia

[galax-arena]

And as long as Hollywood keeps on casting whites in these roles, keeps perpetuating that mindset, there never will be any Asian A-listers.

This also reminds me of how, during the #OscarsSoWhite backlash, some people were criticizing Asians for not speaking up. The thing is, Asian actors WERE speaking up, it's just that there aren't a lot of Asian A-listers so they were hardly being given the same amount of attention that other actors were. (Especially not by those desperate to turn this into a "those whiny black people complaining again" issue.) Constance Wu in particular has been incredibly vocal about diversity since day one, but despite her being the breakout actress from Fresh Off the Boat, she's hardly in the same league as Meryl Streep. The major mainstream media outlets don't care what she has to say about diversity. 

 

And that's never gonna change if Ghost in the Shell type whitewashing keeps on happening! 

Edited April 17, 2016 by galax-arena

[Bastet]

This article is incredible.

 

I agree; thank you for sharing it.  I especially love his bewilderment at the "she always plays the same role" complaints. 

[Trini]

Because I'm a sucker for a list; who are the closest thing we have to Asian "A-listers"? (Be broad and/or go back one or two decades if you must)

 

Off the top of my head: Ben Kingsley, Jackie Chan, Michelle Yeoh, Jon Cho, Lucy Liu.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Trini

[galax-arena]

On name recognition alone: George Takei? 

[twoods]

Weren't there some Japanese actresses in the Wolverine movie? I'm sure one Japanese actress would have been fine to play the same role as Scarlett. Just pisses me off. There is a lot of diversity on TV- why can't movies be the same? Jungle Book made a whopping 50 million this weekend in China and the lead was an Indian kid. I find it hard to believe that casting minority actors in major roles is going to cause movies to bomb both here and overseas. P

Edited April 17, 2016 by twoods

[raezen]

As someone who loves Melissa McCarthy but doesn't love all her movies, (still haven't seen Tammy and don't plan too), this is a great article. I don't understand people who say she is the same in everything. Yes, there can be a bit of vulgarity in her comedies but I think she put in a lot of years as sweet Sookie on Gilmore Girls and is making up for it.

[AimingforYoko]

Like many actors, she benefits from a strong director, like Paul Feig. The bad ones seem to be the ones directed by her husband. Puts her in the same category as a lot of actors.

[raezen]

Like many actors, she benefits from a strong director, like Paul Feig. The bad ones seem to be the ones directed by her husband. Puts her in the same category as a lot of actors.

I think she's in a sub category because I can't think of another movie star who does bad collaborations with their spouse that are still box office successes.

[AimingforYoko]

I think she's in a sub category because I can't think of another movie star who does bad collaborations with their spouse that are still box office successes.

Paul W. Anderson and Milla Jovovich, the Resident Evil series & Len Wiseman and Kate Beckinsale, the Underworld series. (Former spouses now though)

[raezen]

I was unaware that they were working with there spouses at the time but then again I'm guessing none of the critics ever attributed there little regard for the films was that Milla and Kate's husbands allowed them to appear unattractive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_J9SW64fVQQ

[Athena]

Because I'm a sucker for a list; who are the closest thing we have to Asian "A-listers"? (Be broad and/or go back one or two decades if you must)

 

Off the top of my head: Ben Kingsley, Jackie Chan, Michelle Yeoh, Jon Cho, Lucy Liu.

 

Nerds of Color had an article about this in a rebuttal to Sorkin's comment. They listed: Keanu Reeves, The Rock, Lucy Liu, John Cho, and Sung Kang.

 

Weren't there some Japanese actresses in the Wolverine movie? I'm sure one Japanese actress would have been fine to play the same role as Scarlett. Just pisses me off. There is a lot of diversity on TV- why can't movies be the same? Jungle Book made a whopping 50 million this weekend in China and the lead was an Indian kid. I find it hard to believe that casting minority actors in major roles is going to cause movies to bomb both here and overseas. P

 

This poses an interesting question because a lot of Hollywood movies make most of their money overseas now especially in China. Fast & Furious (which had a whole movie set in Asia) has a diverse cast and its probably one of the reasons the franchise is so popular. The Michael Bay Transformers movies are being marketed more to Asians too, but it still features largely Caucasian actors. It's as if they are doing everything to make the movies more profitable outside the West except not actually being diverse in casting.

[Trini]

Duh. The Rock. Thanks for linking that!

[galax-arena]

I adore Sung Kang - HAN LIVES, DAMMIT - but I wouldn't consider him anywhere close to being an A-list movie star. Even though he should be!

[Trini]

I want to include Cliff Curtis, but I don't think he's been the lead in anything high-profile enough.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I agree; thank you for sharing it.  I especially love his bewilderment at the "she always plays the same role" complaints. 

 

You're so welcome!  Glad that people enjoyed it.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

I fricking love Cliff Curtis, but I personally wouldn't say he's A-List.

 

Daniel Dae Kim (I almost wrote Lewis, seriously) has a pretty good profile but I wouldn't say A-List.

Randall Park had a great profile after The Interview.

I'd say Freida Pinto and Dev Patel come kind of close.  Freida's worked with Woody Allen, and Dev worked with Aaron Sorkin (LOL) for The Newsroom.

Aziz Ansari?  Mindy Kaling?

Jackie Chan and Jet Li at different points of their career?

Zhang Ziyi was a big deal when Crouching Tiger came out.

The most famous Japanese actress in America is Rinko Kikuchi I'd say (I could totally be blanking on someone):  Pacific Rim, The Brothers Bloom, Babel and she models for Chanel a lot.

 

Reading Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson's Wikipedia profile now -- I am ashamed that I didn't know all of this background.   He's even considered Canadian as well as American, his father being Black Nova Scotian.  I assumed he was a visible minority, I just didn't know what his background was at all.  I assumed half black and white or Latino or something; never thought too deep about it.   His background seems ultra interesting. 

 

Did not know that about Ben Kingsley at all.  Assumed he was British/white.  I'm getting really educated here.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[vibeology]

I assume Ken Watanabe is Asian A-List too. It's sad how short this list is.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Chow Yun Fat at some points?  Steven Yeun from The Walking Dead has a pretty good profile ;)  He's like the Daniel Dae Kim of the 2010s :)  Parminda Nagra at some points.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[kathyk24]

Why isn't Melissa McCarthy getting the same type of roles that John Candy or Chris Farley got? They were usually cast as likable people if they weren't always smart. She has been cast as a criminal in some of her movies and not likable in others. The trailers for The Boss don't inspire me to see the rest of the movie.

[Trini]

Yeah, Freida Pinto and Dev Patel are close, not quite.

Jet Li I didn't mention because he's only famous for action films; although Jackie Chan I include without any qualifiers.

Zhang Ziyi is 'A-list' -- just not on this continent.

 

With the current controversy over Ghost in the Shell, I feel bad I can't think of more Japanese/Japanese-American actors. Only Hiroyuki Sanada comes to mind. (I haven't seen a lot of his work, but I've been impressed with everything I have seen him in.)

[Wiendish Fitch]

I get that no one wants to play "likable" all the time (nor do I expect them to), but Melissa McCarthy's foul-mouthed and obnoxious routine is not only not that funny to me (I blame the material, not her), it's becoming just as tiresome as James Franco's abrasive, motor-mouthed stoner character, or Simon Pegg's bumbling nerd shtick. Okay, we get it, McCarthy's a gal who's as crass as any dude, but is a little variety asking too much? The same old thing is the same old thing, that's all I'm saying.

 

I do like kathyk24's above mentioned idea, though. The problem is, no one knows anymore how to make the movies John Candy made (which were goofy and silly without being shrill, stupid, and mean-spirited).

 

This reminds me... when I watched the trailer for The Boss, I felt like demanding an apology from anyone who ever judged me for liking 1939's The Women. Yes, The Women should not be held as a standard for modern (or even classic) feminism, but you know what? The Women is witty and quotable (whereas I can't remember a single line from The Boss trailer that made me laugh), and even the "straight man" characters are allowed to be half-way amusing and memorable (poor Kristen Bell could have been replaced by an end table and you'd never know the difference). Not to mention no one in The Women grossly fondled each other's boobs...

Edited April 18, 2016 by Wiendish Fitch

[Ms Blue Jay]

I can think of more Japanese models than actresses, like Ai Tominaga, Chiharu Okunugi, Tao Okamoto.