S06.E10: START

[Erin9]

32 minutes ago, solarfire said:

On another point, I thought it was incredible how Stan was all too willing to blame everything on Philip.  Like he totally disregarded Elizabeth as being a killer or a spy.  Most likely because in the 80's women were still standing up for themselves.  IOW, I guess he thought E only "helped" P but that P was the real spy.  E used that against him and went with the "he's out the spy business" now. lol.  I mean Stan didn't consider that E would still be in it even if P wasn't.  That's why I thought E might kill Stan in his tracks.

I don’t think that was primarily it. Philip was the biggest betrayal for him. His focus was on him. 

[suomi]

13 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

The most romantic thing I've ever heard Elizabeth say. For some reason it reminded me of Doctor Zhivago - there was a meeting on a train, but I think it might have been his daughter (unbeknownst to her).

Many years after Yuri and Lara were forcibly separated, Yuri's half-brother Yevgrav finally locates and meets with his niece/their daughter where she works, at the consruction site of a huge and modern hydroelectric dam. Like multitudes of war orphans, Tanya is unaware of her parentage. Uncle tells niece the long and convoluted family story and at the end of their conversation Yevgrav learns that, like her paternal grandmother, she has a talent for playing the balalaika she constantly carries with her. "Ah, then it is a gift," Yevgrav says to her, regarding her musical talent. Which is what finally convinces him that she truly is Yuri's daughter and that his long search for her is over.

There is a also a vignette set many years after their separation where Yuri, on a streetcar, sees Lara on a sidewalk. He signals to stop the car and begins suffering a heart attack which continues while he exits the car and then fells him in the street while Lara continues walking, not seeing him and not realizing that she Just Barely Missed re-connecting with the love of her life.

(Our small town had one.movie theater that was open on Friday and Saturday and played the same movie twice on both nights. Dr Zhivago was so long that it played only once each night but I saw it both nights that weekend and both nights the following weekend. Hey, I was 16, LOL. A couple years later my first "real" boyfriend was a Jewish boy who was a dead ringer for Omar Sharif, which was constantly noticed and mentioned wherever we went. Those were the days, my friends, I thought they'd never end.

Anyway, that movie and that book sparked a fascination with all things Russian. Plus, my Finnish grandfather emigrated to America in 1918 to avoid being conscripted by the Russian army.)

Edited June 1, 2018 by suomi
talent/gift, not the same thing

[jjj]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, because the emotional baggage of his partner being murdered, which was such heavy baggage that it caused Stan to commit cold blooded murder himself, was conveniently tossed off the relationship train, because the writers wanted their outcome.

I know I'm the minority opinion, but the scene, to me, just just reeked of cheap outcome driven writing. As always, Stan is whatever the writers need him to be, at any given moment. I was not surprised at that, because it is what they always did with Stan. They even did it with Phil and Liz in this episode, which bugged me more. The acting was really, really, great, however, making it a worthwhile finale.

I guess I'm in the minority also. This finale could have worked if the writing leading up to it had been different.  We did no need Elizabeth slaughtering someone at 10:55 most episodes this season if the plan was to let her escape.  We didn't need three FBI agents killed.  The preparation for this final confrontation could have been prepared in an entirely different way.  But the writers chose a final confrontation that had lying rather than friendship.  That's why it was false to me. Because it was not based on friendships, but on lies. And lack of justice.  Elizabeth did not have to be so monstrous, leading up to this. 

[kokapetl]

33 minutes ago, solarfire said:

On another point, I thought it was incredible how Stan was all too willing to blame everything on Philip.  Like he totally disregarded Elizabeth as being a killer or a spy.  Most likely because in the 80's women were still standing up for themselves.  IOW, I guess he thought E only "helped" P but that P was the real spy.  E used that against him and went with the "he's out the spy business" now. lol.  I mean Stan didn't consider that E would still be in it even if P wasn't.  That's why I thought E might kill Stan in his tracks.

The FBI did have a habit of treating woman like children who couldn’t possibly betray their bosses. 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Well, I don't want to be too harsh, here, because very few shows or movies get this right, because writers just love having characters having drawn out confrontational  conversations, with at least one character with weapon drawn. 

Folks, if an FBI agent ever points a weapon at you, and tells you to get on the ground? Do it immediately, even if he or she is your bestest buddy, and you have no weapon. Otherwise, there's a really good chance of you getting a slug put right in the center of your chest, in about 3 seconds.

Yes, that's what Ebert and Siskel called the "talking killer" trope.  Yeah, I'd get on the ground if a gun were pointed at me, but P & E have super attack skills!  Anyway, Stan was still going off books in that scene. 

[magemaud]

On 5/31/2018 at 2:27 AM, showme said:

Since they decided that this is the series finale. I wish they could do a 2 hour feature movie to tie up all the loose ends and give us a sneak peak of everyone's life after the finale.

Why not a "reunion" type special, set ahead a few years after the fall of Communism? 

[kokapetl]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Not on the warehouse whacking

We don’t see who drove Elizabeth there, but we do see Marilyn driving the getaway Volvo.

[jjj]

1 minute ago, magemaud said:

Why not a "reunion" type special, set ahead a few years after the fall of Communism? 

I can see that if everyone needs some paychecks in the future,  there is plenty of unresolved plot that could lead to a followup special. 

[scartact]

5 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Yes, that's what Ebert and Siskel called the "talking killer" trope.  Yeah, I'd get on the ground if a gun were pointed at me, but P & E have super attack skills!  Anyway, Stan was still going off books in that scene. 

Eh, I'm also willing to suspend disbelief here. This show ain't real life.

On the note of reunions, I truly hope it never happens. I don't ever want to know what the show thinks will happen to everyone. I sorta love the place they leave it at, where things will still continue to happen and it's open to use to think what we believe the characters' fates to be.

Edited June 1, 2018 by scartact

[EtheltoTillie]

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

@dubbel zout I thought it was decently set up that Paige might stay. Paige never seemed receptive to going to Russia. I can’t remember the episode, but Paige freaked about the idea of going when it was broached as a possibility. And she was no more receptive in the finale. She might have spied a bit for the Soviet Union, but it wasn’t home. Which was made abundantly clear this season, despite all the lessons. 

Philip and Elizabeth knew it too. Whenever they talked about bringing the kids home, I think they both always knew that taking them would be bad for them. Even if sometimes they told themselves it was okay. They knew they had 2 American kids. 

For a girl that feared loneliness, I also don’t think she wanted to leave Henry without any family. She kept talking about him. That was a deciding factor too. That also made her decision less shocking. 

Furthermore, Paige joined a church knowing her parents would hate it. She was always capable of making her own choices. It’s what Philip told her to do a long time ago. Be herself. So she did. 

That being said- I didn’t sense bitterness towards her parents. She’d accepted the reality that their lives were far darker than they’d let on, and didn’t like it. Didn’t like being lied to either. But at the end of the day- they were her parents regardless. She loves them, though I’m sure she has complicated  feelings about them. I think one reason she chose Claudia’s place was to feel close to her mom. And think, probably, about what to do next. 

 

There were a couple of very telling lines in the scene where P & E came to Paige's apartment.  First, she blurts out -- "Home?  To RUSSIA!?" with incredulity set at 10/10.  Then she asks "Who will pay for Henry's college?" Of all the first-world bourgeois concerns to pick at that moment!  She sounded a bit like her old teenage bratty self.  She turned out to be a real American.

Edited June 1, 2018 by GussieK

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

I guess I'm in the minority also. This finale could have worked if the writing leading up to it had been different.  We did no need Elizabeth slaughtering someone at 10:55 most episodes this season if the plan was to let her escape.  We didn't need three FBI agents killed.  The preparation for this final confrontation could have been prepared in an entirely different way.  But the writers chose a final confrontation that had lying rather than friendship.  That's why it was false to me. Because it was not based on friendships, but on lies. And lack of justice.  Elizabeth did not have to be so monstrous, leading up to this. 

Well, I'm fine with lack of justice. The world is neither just nor fair. The conversation in the garage, however? Ugh. First, as I said above, the whole cliche of the conversation heavy confrontation, at least one party with weapon drawn, is really something I dislike, so whatever happened in that garage was going to be unsatisfactory to me. There were other ways to get to that confrontational conversation, and I wish they had taken such a path.

I've had a problem with Stan's writing for many seasons, and the large number of murders, and the response to those murders, has been a real impediment to good storytelling, and those were problems that cropped up in the finale, perhaps unsurprisingly.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

We don’t see who drove Elizabeth there, but we do see Marilyn driving the getaway Volvo.

You're right. Paige was a look out for the warehouse whacking.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, solarfire said:

On another point, I thought it was incredible how Stan was all too willing to blame everything on Philip.  Like he totally disregarded Elizabeth as being a killer or a spy.  Most likely because in the 80's women were still standing up for themselves.  IOW, I guess he thought E only "helped" P but that P was the real spy.  E used that against him and went with the "he's out the spy business" now. lol.  I mean Stan didn't consider that E would still be in it even if P wasn't.  That's why I thought E might kill Stan in his tracks.

I think he was only talking to Philip because Philip was his bff. He didn't have that relationship with her. But he always knew they were a couple. He shot at her and saw what she did to Gaad. I do think Stan had sexist assumptions but here the main thing was that Phikip was the betrayer. Henry might feel similarly due to his own closeness with Dad vs. Mom.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I guess I don't understand how Phil acknowledging they are living in a burning house involves lying to himself. Phil always more willing to go down that path than Liz, I'll grant you that.

It was total denial when he said the kids would be fine if on their own like Jared in S2 or that they could just trust the warehouse guy wouldn't talk in the same season. When there's nothing he can do because the damage is done he just assrts it will be fine. 

1 hour ago, Marianna said:

Because it literally just happened. But Elizabeth is not given to that kind of introspection over the long haul. 

She's changed about the need to repress these specific feelings. She has talked about feelings before in general.

54 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

We don’t see who drove Elizabeth there, but we do see Marilyn driving the getaway Volvo.

Who gave Elizabeth the actual lift doesn't matter. Paige was a lookout. That's totally as bad.

[Bannon]

Upon thinking about it, it may have been possible to have Liz and Phil arrested, and then sent back to the USSR, when Gorbachev knows that their action prevented his removal in a coup, and he insists on their exchange, as a beginning price of START. This would have allowed for a confrontation with Stan, in an interrogation room, without the cheesy weapons drawn crap, and would have allowed Stan to be a real human being, with appropriate towering rage that the killers of people he cared about were getting away. It would have made it harder to have a seperation from Paige scene, however, that had the impact that the scene on the train did, which really was beautifully shot and acted even better.

[benteen]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Who gave Elizabeth the actual lift doesn't matter. Paige was a lookout. That's totally as bad.

Yes.  Paige is an accessory to four murders.  The general and the three security guards.  Or as Paige would see it, four suicides...

[gunderda]

I just realized that Henry is going to feel like a complete asshole for blowing off his parents on the phone now. poor kid. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I'd like to see the look on Gabriel's face if P and E run into him in Russia and he says he heard they had a quick escape from the US and asked how they got out with the FBI hot on their tails and P says, Yeah, they had us at gunpoint, but, we just refused to surrender, got in our car and drove away.  lol  I can see Gabriel's eyes now!  

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, gunderda said:

I just realized that Henry is going to feel like a complete asshole for blowing off his parents on the phone now. poor kid. 

Sadly, there's a good chance you are right. Asshole parents often accomplish the neat trick of having the victimized children blame themselves for Mom and Dad's assholery.

[Erin9]

22 minutes ago, gunderda said:

I just realized that Henry is going to feel like a complete asshole for blowing off his parents on the phone now. poor kid. 

I think he’s going to have a hard time with the fact that he missed what a significant phone call it was. Even though he was supposed to miss it. He thought it was an ordinary call where his dad got sentimental due to drinking, but wasn’t really trying to tell him anything. Henry didn’t know he was  trying to cram a potential lifetime into one call. 

Philip wasn’t on the phone to just chit chat with Henry. And Henry knew that. Just dad drinking too much and getting sentimental.  So- no big deal. No need to keep talking. They’d talk/see each other next week. Like always. How very sad. For everyone.

(You know Henry’s going to miss these regular conversations. One thing the show did well this season was show that Philip and Henry talked a lot.)

He’ll be replaying that last call forever. Which is why Philip tried to hit the key points with him. He’ll also be replaying Elizabeth’s Thanksgiving call to him, his subsequent conversation with his dad and then his sudden exit too. He thought the call was noteworthy at the time, but it’ll take on a whole new significance now. 

It was mentioned upthread that Henry will probably be obsessed with trying to know and understand his father. And to a lesser extent his mother. IA with that. How could he not? Paige can be of some help there. For a kid who thought his parents were boring workaholics, he won’t be thinking they’re boring now. And he’ll get new insight into their focus on Paige. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Erin9

[Bannon]

43 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yes.  Paige is an accessory to four murders.  The general and the three security guards.  Or as Paige would see it, four suicides...

"Mom sure runs into a lot of depressed people!"

[lostmydamnmind]

52 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'd like to see the look on Gabriel's face if P and E run into him in Russia and he says he heard they had a quick escape from the US and asked how they got out with the FBI hot on their tails and P says, Yeah, they had us at gunpoint, but, we just refused to surrender, got in our car and drove away.  lol  I can see Gabriel's eyes now!  

I'd love to see a Gabriel reunion but MORE THAN THAT I need a Philip/Martha Moscow meet cute.

[SunnyBeBe]

20 minutes ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I'd love to see a Gabriel reunion but MORE THAN THAT I need a Philip/Martha Moscow meet cute.

Yeah.....the possibilities are endless and could be hysterical.  One starts with this former US citizen FBI secretary (Martha), a former illegal now Moscow resident (Philip) and a surly middle aged KGB handler (Claudia), get into a scuffle in the market over a half rotten onion! lol  Just kidding.  I suppose that people who have worked in service of their country get the best food, right? 

Seriously, I'm not so sure that it would do much for Martha to see Philip.  I think it would make him happy to know that she is raising a child and even better, if she's married by now and have somewhat of a life, even though, it's not what she had envisioned. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[lostmydamnmind]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah.....the possibilities are endless and could be hysterical.  One starts with this former US citizen FBI secretary (Martha), a former illegal now Moscow resident (Philip) and a surly middle aged KGB handler (Claudia), get into a scuffle in the market over a half rotten onion! lol  Just kidding.  I suppose that people who have worked in service of their country get the best food, right? 

Seriously, I'm not so sure that it would do much for Martha to see Philip.  I think it would make him happy to know that she is raising a child and even better, if she's married by now and have somewhat of a life, even though, it's not what she had envisioned. 

I feel like it would give Philip a little closure more than her. I'm sure she DGAF any more, but he felt so awful about what happened to her that I'm sure it would come as a relief to see her doing relatively well. also, it could make for a great sitcom if they were neighbors or something. Ridiculous I know, but so is the idea of some kind of reunion.

[hellmouse]

I do not want to see a Philip and Martha reunion at all. I think it would be way too painful for Martha. I would rather imagine that she is raising her daughter, and making friends through the parents of her daughter's friends, maybe even meeting a "suitable" man to be involved with. I'd like to think that she learns Russian well enough to get a job and build a life for herself. Even after the end of the Soviet Union, she can't go back to the US, so I want to imagine that she is at least modestly content in Moscow. 

IMO Philip wasn't in love with Martha and feels tremendous guilt for what he did to her. I think he'd be pleased to know that she is okay and has a daughter, but I don't think Philip is selfish enough to want Martha to absolve him of his guilt. I think he would be careful to never cross paths with her. I think it would also be kind of painful for Elizabeth to think that Philip would have any interest in Martha. She was already jealous of her. It would awaken that insecurity again. 

But I can see why others would want to see Philip and Martha run into each other and it's entirely possible that they might. Moscow is a big city in the late 80's but two people whose lives are going to be heavily affected by KGB connections might be more likely to cross paths than others. 

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he was only talking to Philip because Philip was his bff. He didn't have that relationship with her. But he always knew they were a couple. He shot at her and saw what she did to Gaad. I do think Stan had sexist assumptions but here the main thing was that Phikip was the betrayer. Henry might feel similarly due to his own closeness with Dad vs. Mom.

It was total denial when he said the kids would be fine if on their own like Jared in S2 or that they could just trust the warehouse guy wouldn't talk in the same season. When there's nothing he can do because the damage is done he just assrts it will be fine. 

She's changed about the need to repress these specific feelings. She has talked about feelings before in general.

Who gave Elizabeth the actual lift doesn't matter. Paige was a lookout. That's totally as bad.

Paige was a lookout, but she was also a superfluous lookout. She was never an asset to the Directorate, her presence seemed to always be a burden. A third wheel trainee shadowing Marilyn. 

[Milburn Stone]

44 minutes ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I'd love to see a Gabriel reunion but MORE THAN THAT I need a Philip/Martha Moscow meet cute.

Or better yet, Philip and Elizabeth meet the cast of Roseanne.

[Chaos Theory]

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

Paige was a lookout, but she was also a superfluous lookout. She was never an asset to the Directorate, her presence seemed to always be a burden. A third wheel trainee shadowing Marilyn. 

 But that was in large part Elizabeth’s doing. The training of Paige was inconsistent at best.  If anything that was the one thing I find lacking about the show.  No one ever bothered to train Paige and yet expect her to both do her own research and yet not be obvious about her interest.   

[kokapetl]

Mighty Ducks 4: Cold War Thaw. Starring Keidrich Sellati and half the cast of Stranger Things. 

[Ellaria]

4 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Mighty Ducks 4: Cold War Thaw. Starring Keidrich Sellati and half the cast of Stranger Things. 

I would watch it!

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, solarfire said:

On another point, I thought it was incredible how Stan was all too willing to blame everything on Philip.  Like he totally disregarded Elizabeth as being a killer or a spy.  Most likely because in the 80's women were still standing up for themselves.  IOW, I guess he thought E only "helped" P but that P was the real spy.  E used that against him and went with the "he's out the spy business" now. lol.  I mean Stan didn't consider that E would still be in it even if P wasn't.  That's why I thought E might kill Stan in his tracks.

I think it was more that Philip was his best friend, and Stan was Philip's ONLY best friend in his entire life.  We needed that emotional confrontation and talk between those two men, more than we needed someone killed.  They were two men, both who fought for their country, both hiding things about themselves, both with wounds, and Philip always strove to be a real as he possibly could in his relationship with Stan.   Stan knew Elizabeth, but not like he knew Henry or Philip, her polite reserve was always there.  Much like his dealings with Oleg, he saw the man as well as the KGB Officer.  It was the man he didn't shoot, not the KGB officer.

3 hours ago, jjj said:

I guess I'm in the minority also. This finale could have worked if the writing leading up to it had been different.  We did no need Elizabeth slaughtering someone at 10:55 most episodes this season if the plan was to let her escape.  We didn't need three FBI agents killed.  The preparation for this final confrontation could have been prepared in an entirely different way.  But the writers chose a final confrontation that had lying rather than friendship.  That's why it was false to me. Because it was not based on friendships, but on lies. And lack of justice.  Elizabeth did not have to be so monstrous, leading up to this. 

That was an odd choice, to have Elizabeth suddenly go on a season long killing spree, knowing they would have this kind of ending.  They set it up well, Elizabeth very much overworked because of the Summit, and the stakes so high, because Elizabeth didn't have the whole story from Claudia.  The writers said in one interview that they didn't want to back off from the fact that there had been deaths...but hell, SO many?  Philip and Elizabeth had 16 murders each up until this season.  Someone else can do that math here, but it's certain that THIS season there were many more murders than in a regular season.  I don't get that, even though they laid the ground work for it, so each was believable.  WHY?  They deliberately had fans calling for her death by the end, they didn't do it, or have any significant deaths at all. 

3 hours ago, jjj said:

I can see that if everyone needs some paychecks in the future,  there is plenty of unresolved plot that could lead to a followup special. 

They have stated there will be NO follow ups.  They also said they are really looking forward to the fan fiction, encouraging people to speculate all the want about each of the characters.  Which?  We are all doing.  Ha.

3 hours ago, GussieK said:

There were a couple of very telling lines in the scene where P & E came to Paige's apartment.  First, she blurts out -- "Home?  To RUSSIA!?" with incredulity set at 10/10.  Then she asks "Who will pay for Henry's college?" Of all the first-world bourgeois concerns to pick at that moment!  She sounded a bit like her old teenage bratty self.  She turned out to be a real American.

 

It was practical.  Paige IS an American.  She didn't ask "Who will pay my rent or get me that cute new sports car I want?"  She thought about Henry's college...his future.

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Yes.  Paige is an accessory to four murders.  The general and the three security guards.  Or as Paige would see it, four suicides...

Unequivocally true.  She's also guilty of treason.  I DO think she has a lot to trade, and I do think the fact that she was recruited at only 16, and not a mature 16 at that?  Cutting a deal is very possible.  The FBI is in the process of trying to round up all the illegals KGB posing as Americans.  They are doing well on very skimpy information.  Paige could add a LOT for their investigation.  She knows the garage, which alone would shed a great deal of light on KGB methods, it's a treasure trove for them.  She knows at least one safe house.  She knows Claudia, the woman who runs the Directorate S operations on the ground in the USA.  She knows who the dead body is (Marilyn) which could lead to much more information for them.  She knows that black guy who is operating as an agent/spy for the KGB.  She knows operational tactics, and dead drop areas.  She's a gold mine, a gold mine of mostly small things, but those small things are incredibly useful.  She also has Stan for at least SOME help in negotiating a deal, speaking up for how young she really was.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Sadly, there's a good chance you are right. Asshole parents often accomplish the neat trick of having the victimized children blame themselves for Mom and Dad's assholery.

Their parents were dedicated patriots of their country, who sacrificed every day for a cause they believed in.  They were GOOD at it, great really. 

1 hour ago, lostmydamnmind said:

I'd love to see a Gabriel reunion but MORE THAN THAT I need a Philip/Martha Moscow meet cute.

Philip and Martha resolved itself.  The only thing to learn there would be that yes, he lied about Elizabeth, that he is married to her, and loves her.  Martha's already figured out that her life was blown up by a man who pretended to love her, pretended to be married to her.  She'd probably spit in his face.  He would duck and hide if he spotted her first. 

I do hope he meets Gabe though, because that's the quickest way for Misha, his son, to reenter his life.  I hope that for both Philip and for Misha.

------

I wanted to say one more thing here.  I'm rewatching all of it, so back to season one (I will probably skip season 5, oh hell, no I won't, it might be more palatable now if I just focus on the Russia scenes.)  Anyway.

I realized a bit more about "we could have met on a bus."  Philip and Elizabeth couldn't fall in love for those first 14 years of their marriage.  They couldn't because they were ordered to never be Nadezda and Mikail, or to share any parts of their "former" selves with one another.  They met as Elizabeth from Chicago and Philip from who knows where, and their relationship began on lies, it was all fake, so their marriage was fake as well.  How could it be otherwise?  They were not allowed to "know" each other.

Philip along the way fell in love with her, certainly her beauty was a huge part of that, men being the way they are, but there was also a great deal of admiration for her absolute dedication and proficiency about their cause.  For Elizabeth?  It didn't happen, admiration wasn't enough, and she always doubted Philip's dedication.  She met and recruited Gregory soon after they arrived.  Gregory she KNEW, she KNEW him, his past, his absolute commitment to the cause she'd given her life to.  He was also attractive to her, and THEY fell in love, which pushed out any chance of her "walking into love" with Philip.  Elizabeth is an all or nothing kind of woman.

The night that all changed for Elizabeth, was when she saw Philip SEE her, Nadezda, and kill her rapist Timochev.  Philip had already said "if we kill him, we can't make any deals" (with the USA as defectors) something he was seriously considering at that moment.  She'd even just given him permission to walk Timochev over to Stan and make his own deal for immunity and 3 million dollars.  Instead, for her, Nadezda, not for Elizabeth, his fury threw that all away and he killed her rapist.

That night, she finally told him her real name, and about herself, it cut away before Philip's side of that, but we can logically assume he then told her some of who Mikail is.  At that point, she could love him back, because he was no longer the made-up Philip, he was real, and a whole person.

30 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Paige was a lookout, but she was also a superfluous lookout. She was never an asset to the Directorate, her presence seemed to always be a burden. A third wheel trainee shadowing Marilyn. 

Legally?  That makes absolutely no difference at all.

25 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Mighty Ducks 4: Cold War Thaw. Starring Keidrich Sellati and half the cast of Stranger Things. 

Oddly, I think that kid has a good chance of a great career if he wants it.  He's very handsome, and I think he's gifted.  He's kind of a natural actor, in that, even though they didn't give him much?  He nailed everything they did give him to do.  I see him more as a romantic lead though.  He keeps growing?  He would be 2035's next Bond, James Bond.

I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a name to watch, if he decides to keep up with acting that is.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Umbelina
typos of course

[kokapetl]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Legally?  That makes absolutely no difference at all.

Legally, she did commit crimes, but It would be difficult to pin any conspiracy charge on a person who’s presence made no difference when the crime was committed. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

Legally, she did commit crimes, but It would be difficult to pin any conspiracy charge on a person who’s presence made no difference when the crime was committed. 

"Accessory" and Treason.

[SunnyBeBe]

Even though it's fiction, The Americans still gave me so much to think about....in my real life.  Can you really imagine only having one friend in your entire life and you're over 40 years old? It boggles my mind. And never being able to trust anyone except your spouse.....it's hard to wrap my brain around it.  And with the finale, I also thought of E's only friend, Young Hee.    

[kokapetl]

26 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Or better yet, Philip and Elizabeth meet the cast of Roseanne.

Elizabeth digs two very large graves. 

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

"Accessory" and Treason.

Seventy percent of the population have committed offenses that are imprisonable. So much shit is illegal or unlawful. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Chaos Theory]

4 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Legally, she did commit crimes, but It would be difficult to pin any conspiracy charge on a person who’s presence made no difference when the crime was committed. 

Is there any legal proof of her crimes.  She confessed “once” to Stan and Pastor Tim knows she knew her parents are spies but other then that I don’t think there is any actual legal proof of any crime she committed.   

[KathyMMWSO]

Great actors. Love Kerri Russell. Wished they had gotten shot in the end. Can't believe Stan let them go.  When did Stan get married?  Paige, the big Russian-agent wanna-be, chickened out in the end because nobody wants to live in Russia. Poor Henry. Stan will be in therapy. Hope E and P get a firing squad in their mother country. I hope Martha gets to watch. Who gets their house?  

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

Is there any legal proof of her crimes.  She confessed “once” to Stan and Pastor Tim knows she knew her parents are spies but other then that I don’t think there is any actual legal proof of any crime she committed.   

If she doesn't make a deal first for immunity?  Yes.  The proof would be how easily she would crack under the mildest of FBI interrogations.  She wouldn't even know what she was confessing to.  She's an idiot.  Also, the interrogations wouldn't be mild.  They would be relentless.

Stan would know that.  He'd advise her to cut a deal and spill her guts, tell them every single thing she could remember down to the kind of fingernail polish KGB spies prefer.

[TimWil]

I hope Elizabeth develops lung cancer and realizes she’d have a much better chance at beating it in the US than the USSR.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

Their parents were dedicated patriots of their country, who sacrificed every day for a cause they believed in.  They were GOOD at it, great really. 

 

There isn't anything contradictory about being a dedicated patriot, sacrificing daily for a cause which is believed in, and being an asshole to your children. It often goes hand in hand.

[kokapetl]

Just now, TimWil said:

I hope Elizabeth develops lung cancer and realizes she’d have a much better chance at beating it in the US than the USSR.

 I’d forgotten the “Liz maybe has lung cancer/AIDs”

[BW Manilowe]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic (or did anyone even realize) that the last episode of the series is titled "START" (& I know that was actually an acronym for something related to US/Soviet relations at the time: the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty)?

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I hope Elizabeth develops lung cancer and realizes she’d have a much better chance at beating it in the US than the USSR.

Don Draper will be about 70 by 1990. I wonder if he'll meet Liz at an oncology center, stupidly try to seduce her, and Liz will kill him with an overdose of chemo.

[Misstify]

4 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic (or did anyone even realize) that the last episode of the series is titled "START" (& I know that was actually an acronym for something related to US/Soviet relations at the time: the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty)?

Yes, it's great!  The series ends with a START.   Oleg starting his life in prison, Elizabeth and Philip theirs in the USSR, Stan lying to Aderholt for the rest of his career, etc.

[EtheltoTillie]

24 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth digs two very large graves. 

Seventy percent of the population have committed offenses that are imprisonable. So much shit is illegal or unlawful. 

Ooh, one of my first-year law-school professors is interviewed! 

[scartact]

59 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wanted to say one more thing here.  I'm rewatching all of it, so back to season one (I will probably skip season 5, oh hell, no I won't, it might be more palatable now if I just focus on the Russia scenes.)  Anyway.

I realized a bit more about "we could have met on a bus."  Philip and Elizabeth couldn't fall in love for those first 14 years of their marriage.  They couldn't because they were ordered to never be Nadezda and Mikail, or to share any parts of their "former" selves with one another.  They met as Elizabeth from Chicago and Philip from who knows where, and their relationship began on lies, it was all fake, so their marriage was fake as well.  How could it be otherwise?  They were not allowed to "know" each other.

 

[Side note: I've thought about doing a rewatch, but I've been a bit too busy to do it! Plus, I might need some time away from the show since it only just ended. However, I hope yours goes well!]

But yes, that all makes sense. I'm just thinking back now to when Philip was reflecting on their first meeting and how he told Gabe he felt a spark; but then in a different scene I recall him telling Elizabeth that when they first met he knew she felt disappointed in some way. That makes me wonder if she was always going to be disappointed no matter what, though Gabe allows that (assuming this is true) she rejected two officers before saying yes to him, so in her own way she chose Philip.

But I do like and buy into the notion that once she was able to reveal who she was to Philip (and most likely vice versa for Philip -- offscreen of course!), she couldn't have fallen in love with him. Especially because we know now how much Liz keeps incredibly close to her chest and compartmentalizes. That "We could have met on a bus," under any other circumstances, is so unlike her, but that's almost what I love most about it. The idea that she proposes it to someone it took her 14 years to fall in love with, when he was pretty much all in from the moment he met her.

ETA: Forgot to also say that I think because the onus is on her to fall in love with him, that's what makes it fitting that it's her to propose this small happenstance idea.

 

32 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic (or did anyone even realize) that the last episode of the series is titled "START" (& I know that was actually an acronym for something related to US/Soviet relations at the time: the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty)?

I read this on Twitter, but didn't realize it never got too brought up on here? But yeah, interesting title choice for sure. Other than irony, what are your thoughts on it?

Edited June 1, 2018 by scartact

[SunnyBeBe]

14 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic (or did anyone even realize) that the last episode of the series is titled "START" (& I know that was actually an acronym for something related to US/Soviet relations at the time: the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty)?

I asked it earlier in the week and JJJ said that the finale was the START about the treaty, but, that it also had another meaning of A new start. (New beginning)  I was hoping she was right, because, START seems to not fit with the word DEAD.  And I didn't want that to be the case. lol 

Edited June 1, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Erin9]

4 hours ago, GussieK said:

There were a couple of very telling lines in the scene where P & E came to Paige's apartment.  First, she blurts out -- "Home?  To RUSSIA!?" with incredulity set at 10/10.  Then she asks "Who will pay for Henry's college?" Of all the first-world bourgeois concerns to pick at that moment!  She sounded a bit like her old teenage bratty self.  She turned out to be a real American.

 

I thought Paige’s reaction was primarily human. Not American. Definitely not selfish- she wasn’t talking about herself.

 I think it is normal when you’re given life altering news for your mind to just spin in a million directions- from the huge- we’re going to RUSSIA and leaving without Henry and dad can’t talk to him again - to the comparatively small- Henry’s college education funding. 

Renember when Elizabeth and Philip were worried about catching the virus and they talked about the kids schoolwork? William thought they were nuts. It was so....unimportant big picture wise. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Erin9

[qtpye]

19 minutes ago, scartact said:

[Side note: I've thought about doing a rewatch, but I've been a bit too busy to do it! Plus, I might need some time away from the show since it only just ended. However, I hope yours goes well!]

But yes, that all makes sense. I'm just thinking back now to when Philip was reflecting on their first meeting and how he told Gabe he felt a spark; but then in a different scene I recall him telling Elizabeth that when they first met he knew she felt disappointed in some way. That makes me wonder if she was always going to be disappointed no matter what, though Gabe allows that (assuming this is true) she rejected two officers before saying yes to him, so in her own way she chose Philip.

But I do like and buy into the notion that once she was able to reveal who she was to Philip (and most likely vice versa for Philip -- offscreen of course!), she couldn't have fallen in love with him. Especially because we know now how much Liz keeps incredibly close to her chest and compartmentalizes. That "We could have met on a bus," under any other circumstances, is so unlike her, but that's almost what I love most about it. The idea that she proposes it to someone it took her 14 years to fall in love with, when he was pretty much all in from the moment he met her.

I read this on Twitter, but didn't realize it never got too brought up on here? But yeah, interesting title choice for sure. Other than irony, what are your thoughts on it?

Uh, it would have been interesting to know why she rejected the other guys, but in all honesty, it just that Phillip was in love with her almost on first sight and she was not into him at all until many years later. E knows that she can trust Phillip and that is very important. I am one of the few that probably do not see them staying married in Russia.  P always loved her and she always needed him. If they survive and once that need goes away, I do not see her staying with him (controversial since so many people feel like their love is amazing). Even in her dream, she thought of Gregory and not him. It would be interesting if he ended up married to Martha.

[SunnyBeBe]

But, it was a little unrealistic that E would not have had a lot of discussion with Paige about what happens IF....she didn't have a bag ready, just in case.  Certainly, Paige would have wondered what the plan was, if they got detected.  It really fell flat for me, that they couldn't call Paige and give her a topsy turvy code message, she would know what it means, prepare and follow the plan.  Her standing there being so ill prepared, like the idea never occurred to her just seemed like more of the same to me. 

[Penman61]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He'd advise her to cut a deal and spill her guts, tell them every single thing she could remember down to the kind of fingernail polish KGB spies prefer.

Any color but red.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Penman61