S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Colleenna said:

Yeah, unfortunately cable and high-speed Internet not available where I am, so for TV, it's DirecTV. Which is most excellent, except during heavy rain or snow storms. So I do the same thing about recording replays. 

It's belt and suspenders for tomorrow's episode!  Take no chances! 

[Natalie25]

9 hours ago, duVerre said:

 

And to top it all off, the Js confirmed that it was Tatiana on the Slate podcast. So there you have it, from the source.

 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

Also, Tatiana was NOT "just a diplomat."  She was KGB operating under diplomatic cover.  She works for Directorate 12, bio-weapons. 

It would be a major diplomatic incident indeed, but probably not so much since she was carrying that gas chemical weapon, and obviously about to kill another KGB diplomat who was there negotiating for the USSR on arms control.

Thank you!! I know she was KGB - but she's also an official diplomat, not an illegal or an asset. Did the podcast mention why they went this route? I just find it such an odd writing choice. Is there really no one else? Though I guess not, considering Elizabeth seems to be the only KGB officer for the entire east coast! I hope there's some sort of fall out...I just find it very unrealistic in the realm of the show.

[TimWil]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

Putin, in 1987, was stuck in a dead end KGB job, doing glorified clerical work, in Dresden, East Germany. It wasn't until after he resigned from the KGB, in the immediate wake of the failed coup of 1991, that he began his climb to influence and power. He was sort of a nobody in the late 80s.

During a recent trip to London I was told that Putin might very well have stayed in London at some point in the late 1980s at their version of a Rezidentura in a lovely block of apartments  in High Street Kensington called Kensington Gardens. The person who described it to me said that the neighbours were fascinated by them, they kept mostly to themselves and never even acknowledged anyone if they happened to be passing by.

Edited May 30, 2018 by TimWil

[Clanstarling]

48 minutes ago, Natalie25 said:

Thank you!! I know she was KGB - but she's also an official diplomat, not an illegal or an asset. Did the podcast mention why they went this route? I just find it such an odd writing choice. Is there really no one else? Though I guess not, considering Elizabeth seems to be the only KGB officer for the entire east coast! I hope there's some sort of fall out...I just find it very unrealistic in the realm of the show.

I don't know how realistic it would be - but she was mightily (and justifiably) pissed off at Oleg, so maybe she wanted to get her hands dirty to screw up something she guessed he was working for.

[Colleenna]

Anybody else think Daniel Craig looks like Putin?

[duVerre]

48 minutes ago, Natalie25 said:

 

Thank you!! I know she was KGB - but she's also an official diplomat, not an illegal or an asset. Did the podcast mention why they went this route? I just find it such an odd writing choice. Is there really no one else? Though I guess not, considering Elizabeth seems to be the only KGB officer for the entire east coast! I hope there's some sort of fall out...I just find it very unrealistic in the realm of the show.

As I remember, in the podcast they admitted that, as writers, they wanted a familiar face and yes, they were running out of characters. A kind of guilty, laughing admission of having painted themselves into a plot corner. 

Someone please correct me if I remember this wrong. 

The only way I can justify it to myself is if Tatiana personally wanted to take this on herself, as part of her fury at Oleg ... but that's kind of flimsy too.  

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know how realistic it would be - but she was mightily (and justifiably) pissed off at Oleg, so maybe she wanted to get her hands dirty to screw up something she guessed he was working for.

 

14 minutes ago, duVerre said:

As I remember, in the podcast they admitted that, as writers, they wanted a familiar face and yes, they were running out of characters. A kind of guilty, laughing admission of having painted themselves into a plot corner. 

Someone please correct me if I remember this wrong. 

The only way I can justify it to myself is if Tatiana personally wanted to take this on herself, as part of her fury at Oleg ... but that's kind of flimsy too.  

Tatiana had NO idea what Oleg was working on.  None.  Zip.  Nada.

She is most certainly a KGB Officer, the Diplomat part is simply a cover.

Yes, the Soviets would have had a hit man/squad take him out normally.  That said, it certainly implies that Tatiana was in on the Coup, that would be the only real reason to choose her, to keep it among those that want Gorbachev disgraced, discredited, out, or dead.

[Dev F]

On 5/27/2018 at 9:43 PM, sistermagpie said:

I think the reason I didn't see it before was I don't quite see it as being about teaching about spying. It's more just who they are. They're slightly different things. So, for instance, when I think of who's tried to prepare Paige for the uglier parts of spying at least a little I think of neither Claudia nor Elizabeth--I think of Philip. He deals with that aspect so directly that it's hard to think of anyone else more committed to it (not that he's that committed himself). He's the one who tries to talk to her about seeing horrible things, tries to lead her to the obvious fact that the General was murdered and warns her against thinking her fighting techniques make her invincible.

True, but the difference is that Philip is trying to get her to think about these things so she'll stop wanting to be a spy. Which of course requires less of a delicate touch than what I think Claudia is doing.

Quote

If Paige had more of Claudia's attitude she would absolutely be more suited to spying, but looking back I think the whole idea that these scenes are about teaching was an illusion. They're more about three different women from three different generations expressing themselves and mistakenly assuming they all get it. Claudia celebrates Tchaikovsky's loneliness and Elizabeth celebrates constant fighting to combat fear. Paige's perspective is nothing like either.

It's in later eps like Harvest and now Jennings, Elizabeth that we see just how central loneliness is to *Paige*. But far from being something she's embraced via Claudia, it's her biggest fear--and I don't think there's anything Elizabeth could have done about that because Paige will never look at her mother and see a life of suffering and loneliness. Her mother has Philip.

As I said before, looking back at the series now that's always been the thing Paige seems most fascinated with: her parents' marriage. She wants that intimacy, just as she admitted to Elizabeth in Harvest. She doesn't want to be Tchaikovsky (who I believe was gay so specifically denied a happy love life). On the contrary, she's gotten it into her head that this life is the ticket to true love because that's the example she grew up with. Nothing Claudia could say could destroy that idea.

That's a really good and really interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure, though, that I see it as a mutually exclusive way of looking at it. Because, yes, we're dealing with women from three generations, one who's Soviet to the core, one who was raised in Russia but spent the past twenty years in the West with her American family, and one who's never known anything but an American way of life. And, yes, it's going to be impossible for Paige to ever come all the way around to Claudia's point of view. But that's why I think Elizabeth's failures with Paige are so significant -- because she's the one who could serve as a bridge between the oldest generation and the youngest, between the Russian world and the American one, since she's got one foot in each world.

I just keep coming back to that initial honeypotting conversation, and wondering how the entire arc of Paige's education could've been different if Elizabeth hadn't been so dead set on protecting her from a reality that she already knew about -- that she arguably had suspected for years. I don't see Paige as fundamentally closed to the idea of using sex in tradecraft; indeed, since she subsequently broaches the subject in relation to Brian the intern, I think she's trying to work out how these scary, alien ideas might fit into her own life. That's exactly the thing that Elizabeth can help her with in a way Claudia can't (since presumably Grannie doesn't do much honeypotting nowadays), but Elizabeth refuses to do it.

But this may just be a matter of interpretive preference on my part. I'm always apt to look for a linear narrative wherever possible (because the character made X choice, the outcome was Y) rather than something closer to portraiture (because of circumstance A, the inevitable outcome was B). But there's certainly room for the latter as well, especially with the generational dynamics you laid out in this particular instance.

On 5/28/2018 at 3:57 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

I would be fine with Renee not being mentioned in the series finale at all.   It is far too late for me to give a crap, show!!  I just want to focus on the fate of P and E and their kids and poor sweet Oleg and how Stan feels about his best buddy turning out to be a spy -- the Stan and Philip relationship means for more to me, quite frankly, than anything to do with Renee.     

I can't imagine that Renee's role in the finale will just be about her as a standalone character. Presumably she'll be used to make some final statement about how Stan's friendship with Philip and his other experiences over the course of the series have either helped him to find a partner with whom he can share both his life and his career the way he's always wanted, or doomed him to hook up with yet another KGB operative.

One possibility that occurred to me: If Renee is actually a spy for the Centre, and she exposes herself to the Jenningses in order to help them escape, I could imagine Philip deciding that he can't let Stan become another Martha and secretly arranging for her to be killed (maybe by poisoning her with Elizabeth's cyanide capsule?) -- defying the interests of his own people to do one last service for his friend that Stan will never realize.

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, the Soviets would have had a hit man/squad take him out normally.  That said, it certainly implies that Tatiana was in on the Coup, that would be the only real reason to choose her, to keep it among those that want Gorbachev disgraced, discredited, out, or dead.

Which is in keeping with what's already been established about Tatiana, since in season 4 she was working with Directorate S authorities above Arkady's head on dangerous bioweapons projects that were actually for offensive rather than defensive purposes.

[Sarah 103]

13 hours ago, Law Mom said:

I think the point of Renee is that she will get the job, see the composites, and be the one to ID Philip and Elizabeth. Wouldn't that be awesome? The FBI with years of work, millions in resources, and dozens of dead agents vs. a >37 year old wife with one day on the job in HR? If that happens I will laugh and laugh.

She'll be in HR. The sketches are in the vault, a super secret secure room. Someone in HR is not going to be allowed into the vault. It's not the copy room that anyone can walk into. This is not going to happen. Stan didn't even show Henry the room when he gave him the tour.

11 hours ago, jjj said:

I think the significance is that we will not get to "next Wednesday" in show time, unless there is an epilogue that does a little time jump.  This episode covered about 18 hours, and I expect the finale to cover an even shorter time period, as the last scene this week is the Jennings getting out of Dodge immediately, and the FBI about to be handed photographs of Philip in the park.

If there is a time jump I want something more than a few days, I want to see the Berlin Wall come down or the break-up of the Soviet Union. I also wouldn't mind title cards with the fate of each character. 

[hellmouse]

33 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I just keep coming back to that initial honeypotting conversation, and wondering how the entire arc of Paige's education could've been different if Elizabeth hadn't been so dead set on protecting her from a reality that she already knew about -- that she arguably had suspected for years. I don't see Paige as fundamentally closed to the idea of using sex in tradecraft; indeed, since she subsequently broaches the subject in relation to Brian the intern, I think she's trying to work out how these scary, alien ideas might fit into her own life. That's exactly the thing that Elizabeth can help her with in a way Claudia can't (since presumably Grannie doesn't do much honeypotting nowadays), but Elizabeth refuses to do it.

That's an interesting idea. If Elizabeth had been able to talk about it in a matter-of-fact way that answers Paige's questions, it might have repulsed Paige or it might have intrigued her. But Elizabeth doesn't want either reaction. She does not want Paige to know or even think about it. I think Elizabeth really wants Paige to be proud of her, as someone who is brave and strong and determined. Somehow Elizabeth must fear that Paige will not admire her if she learns that she uses sex that way. It just opens too many questions. Just as Paige wanted to know how many people her mother had killed after witnessing her kill the mugger, now she wants to know how many men she's slept with. And of course Elizabeth doesn't know the total for either. What can she say?

It's almost impossible for Elizabeth to be open with Paige about honeypotting now. And even though she says that it doesn't matter to her, it doesn't seem entirely true. It's true that sex as an act is just another tool in her arsenal, but unlike the other things Elizabeth has taught Paige, she really doesn't want Paige to acquire this tool. 

I wonder if Elizabeth could have had that discussion before she and Philip decided to have a real marriage. Obviously Paige was too young, but Elizabeth might have had a different perspective on it then. I think back to Season 5 when for the first time neither Philip nor Elizabeth really wanted to seduce their marks in Kansas. Elizabeth even cancelled a trip out there. She didn't want to do it. Of course we saw in the opening montage of Season 6 that she is still using sex in her spy work. But it seems to be taking a toll on her.

[jjj]

19 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

 Just as Paige wanted to know how many people her mother had killed after witnessing her kill the mugger, now she wants to know how many men she's slept with. And of course Elizabeth doesn't know the total for either. What can she say?

I Of course we saw in the opening montage of Season 6 that she is still using sex in her spy work. But it seems to be taking a toll on her.

Isn't that awful, not to know how many people she has killed?  But you are right, it would take her a while to count it up, and she still might forget a few.  Ugh.

And Philip also used sex in his spy work this season, and it also took a toll on him.  

[MBayGal]

On 5/28/2018 at 10:42 AM, Blakeston said:

 

It would be even more unlikely that Paige's bf would feel the need to tell her the details of a stranger's drunken ramblings about being seduced by an older woman - and even more unlikely that Paige would hear about it and think "that older woman must have been my mother!"

 

I totally agree!  I thought this was a weak way to out E to Paige.  I kept wondering if Paige had known earlier that E was working on a young intern and I just missed it, but after rewatching this season I see that Paige's epiphany was totally out of the blue

[cameron]

On 5/27/2018 at 9:48 PM, Clanstarling said:

I was poking fun at myself too, so it would have been perfectly fine for you to poke fun at me. I was having fun too. :) Nice reference, btw. It did truly go over my head. :)

Also...politicians.

It must be regional. I joined the United Methodist Church here on the west coast with a minor interview (in which I actually said I was iffy on the divinity of Christ), and no baptismal papers or anything else. They had a class for new members to take, but it was a pretty high level overview of the origins of the church. Both of the churches I was a member of were pretty liberal. I do understand they are far more conservative in the South and maybe the North East(?) As I understand it (I'm no longer a member) the church is very divided and nearly broke apart a year or two ago.

The only time the Catholic Church requires you to take classes is if you weren't born a Catholic and want to convert to Catholicism from a different religion.  Otherwise, you can switch to a different parish if you don't like the one you presently attend.  Happens all the time.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

But this may just be a matter of interpretive preference on my part. I'm always apt to look for a linear narrative wherever possible (because the character made X choice, the outcome was Y) rather than something closer to portraiture (because of circumstance A, the inevitable outcome was B). But there's certainly room for the latter as well, especially with the generational dynamics you laid out in this particular instance.

This really struck me. It's always interested me how differently we see and react to what's shown on the show, which for me is about our different experiences in life. But the idea of interpreting based on linear narrative or portraiture never occurred to me. I think I interpret both ways, but lean more toward the portraiture overall, and linear for specific rapid fire actions.

8 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

If there is a time jump I want something more than a few days, I want to see the Berlin Wall come down or the break-up of the Soviet Union. I also wouldn't mind title cards with the fate of each character. 

That would be nice, especially the title cards.

8 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It's almost impossible for Elizabeth to be open with Paige about honeypotting now. And even though she says that it doesn't matter to her, it doesn't seem entirely true. It's true that sex as an act is just another tool in her arsenal, but unlike the other things Elizabeth has taught Paige, she really doesn't want Paige to acquire this tool.

I agree that Elizabeth saying sex doesn't matter isn't entirely true, but for different reasons. She says this, and believes it in terms of her work, in a knee-jerk fashion because she's been indoctrinated and trained to believe it is true (starting off with a horrible rape), but deep down she knows that sex, even to her, does matter. Sex matters when it's with Philip, and may have mattered with Gregory.

I do agree completely that Elizabeth doesn't want Paige to acquire the tool. That, I think, suggests it's something that has mattered.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

True, but the difference is that Philip is trying to get her to think about these things so she'll stop wanting to be a spy. Which of course requires less of a delicate touch than what I think Claudia is doing.

That's a really good and really interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure, though, that I see it as a mutually exclusive way of looking at it. Because, yes, we're dealing with women from three generations, one who's Soviet to the core, one who was raised in Russia but spent the past twenty years in the West with her American family, and one who's never known anything but an American way of life. And, yes, it's going to be impossible for Paige to ever come all the way around to Claudia's point of view. But that's why I think Elizabeth's failures with Paige are so significant -- because she's the one who could serve as a bridge between the oldest generation and the youngest, between the Russian world and the American one, since she's got one foot in each world.

I just keep coming back to that initial honeypotting conversation, and wondering how the entire arc of Paige's education could've been different if Elizabeth hadn't been so dead set on protecting her from a reality that she already knew about -- that she arguably had suspected for years. I don't see Paige as fundamentally closed to the idea of using sex in tradecraft; indeed, since she subsequently broaches the subject in relation to Brian the intern, I think she's trying to work out how these scary, alien ideas might fit into her own life. That's exactly the thing that Elizabeth can help her with in a way Claudia can't (since presumably Grannie doesn't do much honeypotting nowadays), but Elizabeth refuses to do it.

 

 

This is something I've been thinking about since this ep because I always thought of it this way before where Paige qas a bit open to the idea amd was trying to work out how it could work in her own life. It seemed like it could have a certain appel to her because it would give her control or distance. 

But after thus week I wonder if she was less open to it tgan I thought. It's hard to tell because Elizabeth's lies muddy the waters but it seems possible now that Paige was more thinking about using actual relationships to get info rather than what Elizabeth was doing, which she found genuinely repulsive.  Which is why she thought Claudia was actually joking earlier.

I also think you're right about the attitude Claudia wants to give Paige versus Elizabeth unconciously or not NOT wanting her to have. 

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, duVerre said:

As I remember, in the podcast they admitted that, as writers, they wanted a familiar face and yes, they were running out of characters. A kind of guilty, laughing admission of having painted themselves into a plot corner. 

I didn't mind that it was Tatiana who killed Nesterenko. It finishes her story, for one thing, and I liked that it was a familiar face (to us) who did the deed. But I also totally understand why people think it's ridiculous.

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

This is something I've been thinking about since this ep because I always thought of it this way before where Paige qas a bit open to the idea amd was trying to work out how it could work in her own life. It seemed like it could have a certain appel to her because it would give her control or distance. 

But after thus week I wonder if she was less open to it tgan I thought. It's hard to tell because Elizabeth's lies muddy the waters but it seems possible now that Paige was more thinking about using actual relationships to get info rather than what Elizabeth was doing, which she found genuinely repulsive.  Which is why she thought Claudia was actually joking earlier.

I also think you're right about the attitude Claudia wants to give Paige versus Elizabeth unconciously or not NOT wanting her to have. 

I think Paige was maybe okay with the idea of sex for information in a real relationship. She seemed to toy with the idea anyway both with Matthew and this intern. 

However- that is exactly what Philip and Elizabeth wouldn’t want. It complicates things too much, keeps the relationship from truly being honest and real. Mixes personal and professional too much. Among other issues. It’s just dangerous on many levels.

When she yelled at Elizabeth awhile back that she wouldn’t have sex with someone she didn’t care about, I think she meant it. And she’s disgusted that her parents would. That was clear. She was angry about being lied to AND what the truth was. Just like Elizabeth. She had a problem with the Nesterenko situation before she found out she’d been lied to. 

I don’t think she accepted or fully understood the need to separate the job from the personal. Look what a difficult time Philip had with Martha, and he wasn’t even in love with her. It wasn’t real to him.  He just cared. But just caring complicated things. Paige, I think, would want it to be real. What a mess that would be. 

Yet at the same time, I think Paige wanted her own Philip. But if she has a Philip- how then how does she reconcile the sex for info part? Is she then cheating on him because the other relationship needs to be real too?  Does she quit? Paige probably hadn’t worked that out either. 

This does explain better Paige’s response to Claudia’s story. She really didn’t get the idea of sex only for food. No feelings involved at all. 

39 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I didn't mind that it was Tatiana who killed Nesterenko. It finishes her story, for one thing, and I liked that it was a familiar face (to us) who did the deed. But I also totally understand why people think it's ridiculous.

I thought it worked for those reasons. And she’d already established herself as on the hardliner side. She was still a KGB officer, and there couldn’t be that many people in the area they could just pull on short notice to get this done. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think Paige was maybe okay with the idea of sex for information in a real relationship. She seemed to toy with the idea anyway both with Matthew and this intern. 

However- that is exactly what Philip and Elizabeth wouldn’t want. It complicates things too much, keeps the relationship from truly being honest and real. Mixes personal and professional too much. Among other issues. It’s just dangerous on many levels.

When she yelled at Elizabeth awhile back that she wouldn’t have sex with someone she didn’t care about, I think she meant it. And she’s disgusted that her parents would. That was clear. She was angry about being lied to AND what the truth was. Just like Elizabeth. She had a problem with the Nesterenko situation before she found out she’d been lied to.

Yet at the same time, I think Paige wanted her own Philip. But if she has a Philip- how then how does she reconcile the sex for info part? Is she then cheating on him because the other relationship needs to be real too?  Does she quit? Paige probably hadn’t worked that out either. 

This does explain better Paige’s response to Claudia’s story. She really didn’t get the idea of sex only for food. No feelings involved at all. 

Yes it puts all those conflicts into perspective.  I thought like her parents that Paige was suggesting honeytrapping with Matthew and Brian. But really she was talking about having a relationship that also yielded info. Her parents saw that as dangerous but she didn't understand how. She thought Claudia had a real relationship with a guy and was joking that she did it for the food when that was just a perk.

If she wants her own Philip that's another way of mixing spy work with romance. But it does seem like it's a way she can't reconcile. I mean, it seems to have been in her mind all along. She's always wondered if they were cheating.  In fact it was often Philip she thought was the cheater. And he was since he was out of the house to be with Martha. She maybe hoped that if they were in it together there couldn't be cheating. Instead the whole argument comes down to Paige fundamentally not seeing sex as a tool. 

When Paige talked about sex and spying it was within the relationship. Now she sees a relationship where people have sex outside it for spying. It's got to be hard for her to wrap her head around despite her having her own friendships she says aren't real.

That would also explain how she thought her parents were weird. Paige was basically going to be the next Anneliese.  The person who couldn't fake a relationship and would eventually try to bring it all together. She wanted the authenticity that was dangerous. 

[DrumJunkie]

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I thought it worked for those reasons. And she’d already established herself as on the hardliner side. She was still a KGB officer, and there couldn’t be that many people in the area they could just pull on short notice to get this done. 

I also thought it worked to show her motivated to prove herself after her career was sidelined as a result of the botched bio-weapon mission.  Also, in both the dead hand and bio-weapon mission Oleg and Tatiana were on opposite sides, so there is a parallel there as well. (I think someone above or in another thread mentioned this.  Sorry if I'm not giving credit where credit is due) 

Overall, I think it works in more ways than it doesn't.

Also, as she lay lifeless on the steps, wig askew, wasn't her uniform also partially revealed under her coat further indicating a Russian officer?  iirc, then the loose fitting wig was only intended as a brush pass concealment, not intended for further scrutiny like a close quarters interaction.

[Erin9]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes it puts all those conflicts into perspective.  I thought like her parents that Paige was suggesting honeytrapping with Matthew and Brian. But really she was talking about having a relationship that also yielded info. Her parents saw that as dangerous but she didn't understand how. She thought Claudia had a real relationship with a guy and was joking that she did it for the food when that was just a perk.

If she wants her own Philip that's another way of mixing spy work with romance. But it does seem like it's a way she can't reconcile. I mean, it seems to have been in her mind all along. She's always wondered if they were cheating.  In fact it was often Philip she thought was the cheater. And he was since he was out of the house to be with Martha. She maybe hoped that if they were in it together there couldn't be cheating. Instead the whole argument comes down to Paige fundamentally not seeing sex as a tool. 

When Paige talked about sex and spying it was within the relationship. Now she sees a relationship where people have sex outside it for spying. It's got to be hard for her to wrap her head around despite her having her own friendships she says aren't real.

That would also explain how she thought her parents were weird. Paige was basically going to be the next Anneliese.  The person who couldn't fake a relationship and would eventually try to bring it all together. She wanted the authenticity that was dangerous. 

Hadn’t even thought about Annelise. But- you’re right. She freaked out the first time she had sex with Yousef. Then- she made it a real relationship and ultimately got herself killed by trying to be totally honest with him. That would be Paige. Some kind of scenario like that anyway.

[DrumJunkie]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes it puts all those conflicts into perspective.  I thought like her parents that Paige was suggesting honeytrapping with Matthew and Brian. But really she was talking about having a relationship that also yielded info.

I agree with this especially, but also with the rest of your comment.  As a father of two girls 19 & 16, Paige's actions are no more confusing than any other teenage girl, lol.  Paige still sees a lot of things in black and white terms.  She doesn't understand how the sexual relationship and spying interact. and she hasn't been shown how to compartmentalize the two.   As a parent, that is what Elizabeth is afraid of.  Also like many parents Elizabeth is guilty of over protecting her, whether she even realizes it or not.  So, Paige now sees the black and white facts of her mom using sex for information, but she can't remove the emotional importance that she puts on it.  (Not sure that I explained that well.)

[Misstify]

I've been hoping for a Renee payoff since she was introduced.  But I think at this point, it's not gonna happen.  If Stan is married to a KGB spy, it makes his friendship with neighbor KGB spies pale in comparison.  It totally overshadows the drama of Stan's relationship with Philip and Elizabeth.  A minor character can't overshadow everyone else in the final episode.  At least, I hope not.

I remain baffled by all the hints about Renee and what her significance really is.

[Ina123]

15 minutes ago, Misstify said:

I've been hoping for a Renee payoff since she was introduced.  But I think at this point, it's not gonna happen.  If Stan is married to a KGB spy, it makes his friendship with neighbor KGB spies pale in comparison.  It totally overshadows the drama of Stan's relationship with Philip and Elizabeth.  A minor character can't overshadow everyone else in the final episode.  At least, I hope not.

I remain baffled by all the hints about Renee and what her significance really is.

I agree. I question that if she is KGB why has there been no contact between P and E and her ...unless it has been behind the scenes? (I, for one, would throw a rotten tomato at the screen for that.) I still think a reveal like that in the finale would just overshadow the entire series and it would be destined to the closet where all lousy finales go.

And I still think it would be crap to have not only Stan's best friends be spies, but his wife also. Nah, it would ruin the story for me.

[stitcher73]

I'm sitting at work reading here...I can NOT wait for tonight's episode!!!!!

[Dev F]

4 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I agree. I question that if she is KGB why has there been no contact between P and E and her ...unless it has been behind the scenes?

The show has made it clear that if Renee is a spy, P&E don't know about it. And unless Gabriel was lying at the exact moment when he was being most honest with Philip, he didn't know either. The idea seems to be that if she's an operative at all, she's been compartmentalized away from P&E and their handlers.

Quote

And I still think it would be crap to have not only Stan's best friends be spies, but his wife also.

But it's not like it's some wacky coincidence. Philip suspects that the Centre created a honeypot for Stan based on the Jenningses' reports on him over the years. (Presumably it would also be based on Nina's reports, but I don't think Philip knows about those.) If Stan married yet another KGB agent, it's because the people who knew him most intimately ensured that Renee would be just what he was looking for.

[Ina123]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The show has made it clear that if Renee is a spy, P&E don't know about it. And unless Gabriel was lying at the exact moment when he was being most honest with Philip, he didn't know either. The idea seems to be that if she's an operative at all, she's been compartmentalized away from P&E and their handlers.

But it's not like it's some wacky coincidence. Philip suspects that the Centre created a honeypot for Stan based on the Jenningses' reports on him over the years. (Presumably it would also be based on Nina's reports, but I don't think Philip knows about those.) If Stan married yet another KGB agent, it's because the people who knew him most intimately ensured that Renee would be just what he was looking for.

You misunderstand me. Sure he could be honey potted by Renee. I'm not saying it couldn't be. I'm saying I don't want it to be - because to me it's overkill.

[Erin9]

I’d just like there to be a point to Renee beyond just giving Stan a wife. She’s already horribly underwritten. There’s nothing real about her. Sandra felt like a real person. 

[White Sheep]

Was Stan visit to the ravel agency. A dangle.  An operation to see if Phillip would start taking money. After a while you turn it into fbi money that you give him.  Now Phillip is working for the fbi.  Simple and effective operation. 

[Misstify]

16 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I’d just like there to be a point to Renee beyond just giving Stan a wife. She’s already horribly underwritten. There’s nothing real about her. Sandra felt like a real person. 

I agree 100%.  I just don't see how a Renee KGB revelation can happen in the final episode without stomping all over the dramatic tension re: the spy-friend relationship that has been built up since episode 1.  I'm not giving up hope, though; I'll be looking for a very cleverly written and executed twist!

[Ina123]

2 minutes ago, Misstify said:

I agree 100%.  I just don't see how a Renee KGB revelation can happen in the final episode without stomping all over the dramatic tension re: the spy-friend relationship that has been built up since episode 1.  I'm not giving up hope, though; I'll be looking for a very cleverly written and executed twist!

The operative word is "cleverly". I just don't want a "groan" moment.

[Dev F]

12 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Was Renee brought on to the series before it was announced that this was the last season of the series?

Nope. In 2016, The Americans was renewed for two final seasons of thirteen episodes and ten episodes, respectively, and then Renee was introduced in the second episode of what the writers knew was their second-to-last season.

[SunnyBeBe]

3 hours ago, stitcher73 said:

I'm sitting at work reading here...I can NOT wait for tonight's episode!!!!!

I think I feel that way too, but, then, I get so anxious.  I want to see it, but, then, I realize that once I do, that's it.  It's almost as if the anticipation might be better.  I don't want it to be over, although, I'd rather it go out, before it gets too bizarre.  Some good shows have stayed too long and gone downhill.  I'm hoping that I won't be broken hearted, but, certainly expect some tears. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Thank you for the information.

Then I must be really missing something.  There has to be more to Renee that I am just not getting.

It is bad writing, no matter what Renee does or does not do in this final episode, and really, really, bizarre casting.  I would be interested in hearing from Laurie Holden as to how the role was described to her. Why didn't the producers save some money by hiring a 40ish attractive unknown actor, who would work for scale? There are likely hundreds of actors who could have played this nothing part, without any difference noticed by the audience.

[Dev F]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It is bad writing, no matter what Renee does or does not do in this final episode, and really, really, bizarre casting.  I would be interested in hearing from Laurie Holden as to how the role was described to her. Why didn't the producers save some money by hiring a 40ish attractive unknown actor, who would work for scale? There are likely hundreds of actors who could have played this nothing part, without any difference noticed by the audience.

I would imagine the writers didn't want someone who'd just play "nothing part," but someone who would be able to pull off "behaving in a way that seems vaguely suspicious, but maybe it's all in our imaginations." It hasn't been a hugely rewarding role up to this point, but it hasn't been an easy role, either. A lesser actress could've easily screwed up the balance one way or another, making her seem either so innocuous that it's insane for Philip or us to wonder whether she's a spy, or so obviously a plant that Stan looks like a complete idiot for not realizing.

And certainly the fact that Laurie Holden is probably best known for playing a maybe friendly, maybe devious informant on The X-Files plays in to what the producers have been trying to accomplish with the character.

[whiporee]

I think tonight's episode is going to be an investigation into Renee's backstory, and we'll learn all about her and answer all our questions as she talks to her mom or sister.. Then, in the background, there'll be a new report of a firefight in downtown DC, where a family of Soviet spies were gunned down along with a veteran FBI agent and, tragically, a robot designed to carry mail. 

[EtheltoTillie]

For me the clue was that she met Stan at the gym--the same way Philip contrived to meet dour Midwest spreadsheet girl.  Who the heck knows!  Only four hours until we find out!

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I would imagine the writers didn't want someone who'd just play "nothing part," but someone who would be able to pull off "behaving in a way that seems vaguely suspicious, but maybe it's all in our imaginations." It hasn't been a hugely rewarding role up to this point, but it hasn't been an easy role, either. A lesser actress could've easily screwed up the balance one way or another, making her seem either so innocuous that it's insane for Philip or us to wonder whether she's a spy, or so obviously a plant that Stan looks like a complete idiot for not realizing.

And certainly the fact that Laurie Holden is probably best known for playing a maybe friendly, maybe devious informant on The X-Files plays in to what the producers have been trying to accomplish with the character.

I can only imagine her reaction upon reading the lines where she declares that she wants to be an FBI agent. It reminded me of Paige's ambitions to be a Christian or a spy - but that feels normal for a teenager who's exploring what they want to do. It is less usual for a successful 40 something professional to out of the blue declare they want to do the same job their spouse does. A lesser actress would have probably struggled with that. It made me think Renee was dumb but it didn't make me think it was bad acting. So that's good I guess!

Edited May 31, 2018 by hellmouse
typo

[Colleenna]

Maybe Renee is some other 3 letter agency, like No Such Agency. 

[DrumJunkie]

10 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I would imagine the writers didn't want someone who'd just play "nothing part," but someone who would be able to pull off "behaving in a way that seems vaguely suspicious, but maybe it's all in our imaginations." It hasn't been a hugely rewarding role up to this point, but it hasn't been an easy role, either. A lesser actress could've easily screwed up the balance one way or another, making her seem either so innocuous that it's insane for Philip or us to wonder whether she's a spy, or so obviously a plant that Stan looks like a complete idiot for not realizing.

Agreed.  I think the fact that Renee has generated so much discussion with so little is a testament to how well written and acted the part has been.  The look she gave Stan at the thanksgiving meal during his 'toast'.  Was that grin deviousness or devotion?

Edited May 30, 2018 by DrumJunkie

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, GussieK said:

For me the clue was that she met Stan at the gym--the same way Philip contrived to meet dour Midwest spreadsheet girl.  Who the heck knows!  Only four hours until we find out!

I said "spy" from the first meeting of her and Philip at the gym.  And he had the same reaction!  There are so many similar examples of the ways Elizabeth has honeypotted her targets -- most recently that totally, totally random movie theatre connection with the Nunn intern.  "Wow, what a coincidence that two French film buffs would bump into each other at a French film?!  I think we are connecting!  How random!"  

Just now, DrumJunkie said:

I think the fact that Renee has generated so much discussion with so little is a testament to how well written and acted the part has been.  The look she gave Stan at the thanksgiving meal during his 'toast'.  Was that grin deviousness or devotion?

OH!  And the Look she gave him in "The Summit," after she asked when he was coming to bed:  "Soon."  Go back and watch the look she gives him right before she turns off the light.  It is very assessing, as he watches the Jennings' home.  

[Dev F]

17 hours ago, Dev F said:

One possibility that occurred to me: If Renee is actually a spy for the Centre, and she exposes herself to the Jenningses in order to help them escape, I could imagine Philip deciding that he can't let Stan become another Martha and secretly arranging for her to be killed (maybe by poisoning her with Elizabeth's cyanide capsule?) -- defying the interests of his own people to do one last service for his friend that Stan will never realize.

Wait, no, new prediction: Elizabeth is the one who poisons Renee, because she realizes how much it would destroy Philip to know that she's out there turning another person he cares about into a doomed puppet. Not only would Liz be symbolically killing the most ruthless and heartless part of herself, but she'd be paying Philip back for his actions in the pilot, when he gave up his dreams of defecting to quell his wife's pain by killing Timoshev.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Dev F

[dr pepper]

When the show began, Stan had just returned from a stint undercover with some neo nazis. Maybe Renee is one of them.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

Agreed.  I think the fact that Renee has generated so much discussion with so little is a testament to how well written and acted the part has been.  The look she gave Stan at the thanksgiving meal during his 'toast'.  Was that grin deviousness or devotion?

I honestly don't think it required good writing since most of the discussion is about how Renee seems so underwritten and inauthentic maybe it's intentional. The conversation about her really isn't about whether her look was deviousness or devotion. It's about how it's such bland, perfect devotion it seems fake--especially because we're so used to Philip and Elizabeth doing it better.

If she's not a spy the main question about her is maybe why Stan wanted this person instead of someone who seems like she has a real personality. Like I guess it's obvious to compare them to the Jennings here. The Beemans are fine with both of them having separate lives because Renee's basically all about wanting to be all about Stan anyway. The Jennings are two very different people and sometimes this makes them clash. Even when they both have the same job and the same goal they don't do it the same way, though Renee sees them as close because they work together all the time. (She's saying that even though she herself came on the scene after they stopped working together all the time and were actually drifting apart.) Stan in the last ep had started to become more invested in his job again and expressing some alarm at the idea of Renee being there with him all the time for every meal.

If she's just there to be a wife for Stan and for him to have a marriage that contrasts with the Jennings it seems like that would be another casualty of the ending. With Stan's trust taking such a hit he can't ever feel close to his wife.

[DrumJunkie]

^ Yeah, I didn't think it would be a popular opinion, but that's why this board is so fun for me to read - lot's of different viewpoints and angles to consider.

[EtheltoTillie]

33 minutes ago, jjj said:

"  

OH!  And the Look she gave him in "The Summit," after she asked when he was coming to bed:  "Soon."  Go back and watch the look she gives him right before she turns off the light.  It is very assessing, as he watches the Jennings' home.  

I just took a look.  She seems to look at the camera.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I just took a look.  She seems to look at the camera.

Yeah, it's almost like after Renee's scenes and the director calls CUT, everyone on the set bursts into laughter. 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

We didn't even get a Stan and Renee sex scene.

You say that like it's a bad thing. ;)

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think I feel that way too, but, then, I get so anxious.  I want to see it, but, then, I realize that once I do, that's it.  It's almost as if the anticipation might be better.  I don't want it to be over, although, I'd rather it go out, before it gets too bizarre.  Some good shows have stayed too long and gone downhill.  I'm hoping that I won't be broken hearted, but, certainly expect some tears. 

I'm anxious too - but mostly because our cable provider has not been providing great service these last few days, (last night's recording didn't record at all) so it's a toss up as to whether or not we'll actually be able to record this tonight. (Our schedules don't allow for live viewing - and given that it's the finale, I'm guess there'll be at least 11 pages of comments before I get to them after seeing the finale tomorrow evening. (it's usually 6). I'll have to remember not to look at my usual tv sites in the morning.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have to hand it to you.....if I had to wait until tomorrow....I can't even imagine that. Good luck.  I hope the cable holds out. I'm nervous because we have had thunderstorms for days and they are still in the forecast.  The doppler radar looks okay right now, but, you never know.  

I anticipate there will be a lot of activity on the boards both during and after the finale.  I bet it will be more than 11 pages, but, maybe, I'm overestimating.  I forget that not everyone is as fanatical about this as I am. 

[JennyMominFL]

I’m so stressed out about this finale. I’m going to watch with a drink of vodka. Seems right. I want them to be caught and yet I don’t. I want Stan to bust them but I don’t. And I want Oleg safe somehow. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[TheBride]

On 5/25/2018 at 8:11 AM, TheBride said:

Could Paige end up going to South America to live with the minister's family? Why bring him back into the plot?

The minister was brought back last episode. The FBI phoned him.