S04.E22: Think Fast

[tennisgurl]

I’m glad they’re still continuing with Iris being a journalist, and finding her passion for writing again. And Barry is being all supportive of her. It’s really cute. 

Normally I would be happy with Iris showing some emotions beyond support, and Harry is certainly a deserving target 9 times out of 10, as he’s always rather an ass, if a generally well meaning one. But with him having serious brain damage, it seemed like Iris was a little hard on him. But then, when your having as crappy as time as Team Flash lately, it’s hard to blame her for being a bit irritable. 

[bettername2come]

I liked the part where they acknowledged Caitlin could have a dissociative identity disorder due to all the trauma of the last few years with her twice-dead fiance and serial killer boyfriend who kidnapped her, but then they went and said she's had this the whole time. What? Why?

The Cecille actress did a good job playing the different personalities she picked up. 

I thought the explanation of how Flash time worked made sense within the context of a comic book show. Agree that Barry should figure more stuff out on his own.

Diggle! And David Ramsey played Devoe well. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I’m glad they’re still continuing with Iris being a journalist, and finding her passion for writing again. And Barry is being all supportive of her. It’s really cute. 

They did incorporate Iris' investigating pretty well in this episode. See? Not that hard, writers! Compassion and bravery are two of Iris' key traits, and they used that in her scene with Marlize. I think they should do more of that, maybe having her interact with perps or victims or witnesses more often next season.

[rmontro]

The only real comment I have is that the special effects at the beginning where DeVoe was taking over that installation reminded me of the special effects in a video game I play, "Shadow of Mordor".  I don't mean that as a criticism, by the way, just an observation.

This DeVoe thing should have been wrapped up episodes ago, seems like it's really dragged out.  I still say that either the season is too long, or they need to have two different storyline arcs - one that ends at the midseason finale, and one for the second half of the season.

[Terrafamilia]

After his rampage through ARGUS I think I have DeVoe figured out. He was bullied by jocks in high school and this is all payback.

[tennisgurl]

With DeVoe going on about those damn kids and their damn phones, I kind of wish they would have made DeVoe just a crazy old man who hates The Young People and thats what this whole plot was about. Its like if Grandpa Simpson became a supervillain!

[Trini]

Observation: I think this was the first time we've seen Cisco in STAR Labs gear?

[ottoDbusdriver]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

With DeVoe going on about those damn kids and their damn phones, I kind of wish they would have made DeVoe just a crazy old man who hates The Young People and thats what this whole plot was about. Its like if Grandpa Simpson became a supervillain!

Devoe (as played by Grandpa Simpson): "Hey you damn kids, get off my lawn or I'll trap you in a pocket universe."

[GHScorpiosRule]

First: I had NO problem with Iris telling Wells to back up because he was tracking mud/dirt all over her floor. Or how she was throughout the episode. If not for her explaining to Wells what the loft meant to her, she wouldn't have realized where they could find Marlize.

But the rest? That's time I'll never get back.

Oh? Was I supposed to laugh at Cecile's suddenly new powers about "inhabiting" the personalities of those she comes near? Hee.hee.ho.ho.

Oh, Hi Diggle. Bye, Diggle.

[sarthaz]

I really enjoyed this episode. I can't really defend that position, because I'm sure that objectively it sucked, because they all suck these days. Maybe that opening fight sequence just put me in a good mood, or perhaps I've been "enlightened" already and have become a simpleton, but for whatever reason, I didn't spend the whole episode rolling my eyes and wanting everyone to die already.

[legaleagle53]

On 5/15/2018 at 6:53 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

A world impacting event like the Enlightenment should have all hands on deck level of urgency a la the invasion from Earth-X or the Dominators -- so where the hell is everyone else from the DCU ?  Especially Supergirl and Superman.

Superman and Supergirl are in their own universe (Earth-38), and Supergirl's got her hands full trying to keep three Kryptonian Worldkillers from wiping out her Earth's population at the moment.  No word on why Superman is MIA on Earth-38, either -- that's been bugging Supergirl viewers ever since the Worldkillers storyline started this season.

Edited May 18, 2018 by legaleagle53

[ottoDbusdriver]

6 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Superman and Supergirl are in their own universe (Earth-38), and Supergirl's got her hands full trying to keep three Kryptonian Worldkillers from wiping out her Earth's population at the moment.  No word on why Superman is MIA on Earth-38, either -- that's been bugging Supergirl viewers ever since the Worldkillers storyline started this season.

I get that, but if they could make a call to the forgettable Council of Harrisons, couldn't they get Jesse or someone else to help out, Or maybe some Earth locals from Team Arrow.
The Legends at least.

The Earth is about to get 'enlightened' -- serious shit is about to go down.

[Trini]

57 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I get that, but if they could make a call to the forgettable Council of Harrisons, couldn't they get Jesse or someone else to help out, Or maybe some Earth locals from Team Arrow.
The Legends at least.

The Earth is about to get 'enlightened' -- serious shit is about to go down.

Ugh. I really miss Wally. He should be *here*. It's annoying that in the same season that they wrote him out, there were multiple plots/arcs in which having another speedster would have been really useful.

I know Keiynan is on another show, but I hope they find time for him to be in a few episodes next season.

[Jack Kerouac]

14 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Superman and Supergirl are in their own universe (Earth-38), and Supergirl's got her hands full trying to keep three Kryptonian Worldkillers from wiping out her Earth's population at the moment.  No word on why Superman is MIA on Earth-38, either -- that's been bugging Supergirl viewers ever since the Worldkillers storyline started this season.

 

If Barry took a quick jaunt to Earth-38 via Cisco, Supergirl could fly over, destroy all of the satellites and be home within 30 minutes. It's not like it would take her long to fly around and destroy the satellites using her heat vision.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jack Kerouac

[Katsullivan]

Quote

"I'm broken, Barry!"

So, are we going to talk about the Elephant in the room called Caitlin Snow, who accused Barry of causing Killer Frost powers to awaken in her via changing the timeline ---- and repeatedly tried to kill him, Iris, Cisco and eventually helped murder HR... Only for us to discover that Killer Frost has been a part of Caitlin since she was a child, since pre-Flashpoint?

Are we going to talk about how Caitlin Snow is probably the worst character on this show (and I'm not just talking about bad writing and narrative uselessness) but bad as in selfish and untrustworthy?

 

Other than that, it was a so-so episode. Iris and Marlize should have traded a few more punches before they started talking to each other. Barry's now training Cisco and Caitlin to exist in Flashtime. Even though there's  a reason why Vibe powers can't work in Flashtime that actually makes sense and since Caitlin has now powers, Caitlin has no business being trained to be in Flashtime. Since all she's doing is holding a gun, Iris and Joe, who have bonafide markmanship skills would have made more sense? 

 

 

On 5/16/2018 at 9:04 AM, Lady Calypso said:

And it's simply a pattern with one particular writer. He also wrote the Luck Be a Lady episode, where Iris crashed a funeral with Barry in order to get married (which, while not bitchy, was just odd and not really funny). He wrote the scene where Iris did bitch about the wedding gift from Oliver/Felicity, which is out of character for her. She has never been the type to care about these things and make passive aggressive comments.

So when Iris waits for the funeral to be over before she gets married --- she is crashing it and it's odd and not funny to you.

Yet when Felicity and Oliver literally interrupt her "I dos" to get married --- you can't see why Iris should care about it?

Quote

The writer seems to associate Iris with being petty, which bugs me. I just don't like the pattern. It can make sense in context, but the writer turns it into a "comedic" moment, which ends up falling flat and, for me, completely undermines the character. 

Black women aren't petty for being (mildly) assertive towards white people or prioritizing their own feelings and needs above white people's. 

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

If Barry took a quick jaunt to Earth-38 via Cisco, Supergirl could fly over, destroy all of the satellites and be home within 30 minutes. It's not like it would take her long to fly around and destroy the satellites using her heat vision.

And who knows how much death, havoc, and destruction Reign, Purity, and Pestilence would wreak on Earth-38 in the 30 minutes or so that Supergirl is busy destroying the satellites in orbit around Earth-1. These are three Kryptonian Worldkillers who are so powerful that they nearly killed Supergirl herself, so there's a LOT they could do to Earth-38 in Supergirl's absence even for a short time.  Supergirl's priority has to be ensuring her own world's safety first by dispatching the Worldkillers.  Earth-1 is just going to have to get out of its own mess by itself.

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

So, are we going to talk about the Elephant in the room called Caitlin Snow, who accused Barry of causing Killer Frost powers to awaken in her via changing the timeline ---- and repeatedly tried to kill him, Iris, Cisco and eventually helped murder HR... Only for us to discover that Killer Frost has been a part of Caitlin since she was a child, since pre-Flashpoint?

I could be wrong but I don't think that's exactly true.

Prior to Flashpoint, Caitlin was not a meta. She checked herself and didn't even possess the meta gene.

Flashpoint altered the timeline. Caitlin has had Killer Frost in her since she was a kid NOW but that wasn't true before Barry went back and saved his mom.

Caitlin never had powers before Flashpoint, just like Diggle and Lyla didn't have a son and Cisco's brother was alive.

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, KirkB said:

I could be wrong but I don't think that's exactly true.

Prior to Flashpoint, Caitlin was not a meta. She checked herself and didn't even possess the meta gene.

Flashpoint altered the timeline. Caitlin has had Killer Frost in her since she was a kid NOW but that wasn't true before Barry went back and saved his mom.

Caitlin never had powers before Flashpoint, just like Diggle and Lyla didn't have a son and Cisco's brother was alive.

Caitlin's story is a huge mess. Even in this timeline, how is just now finding out about the cryogenic thing in her DNA? When she ran tests before, she couldn't find it then? And I'm assuming she still ran dark matter tests in the post-flashpoint timeline.

[KirkB]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Caitlin's story is a huge mess. Even in this timeline, how is just now finding out about the cryogenic thing in her DNA? When she ran tests before, she couldn't find it then? And I'm assuming she still ran dark matter tests in the post-flashpoint timeline.

It IS a mess, but I think that's the point. Mind you, I don't think it's a point the Flash writers are deliberately making, except to say that time travel can be messy. I think the idea is pre-Flashpoint Caitlin was an ordinary girl with nothing special in her DNA, unlike Cisco who had the meta ability waiting for the particle accelerator to blow up in his face. Then Flashpoint happened and while Cisco didn't change apparently Caitlin's genetics got scrambled (as did that of DIggle and Lyla's child) and not only did she have a meta gene but it was one that existed outside of the particle accelerator or the bus. There was at least one guy in the past, Deathbolt, who had powers and yet was not in Central City at the time of the dark matter explosion. I'm curious to see where Caitlin's story is going to be honest.

[Trini]

On 5/18/2018 at 11:28 PM, Katsullivan said:

So, are we going to talk about the Elephant in the room called Caitlin Snow...

... Because...

14 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Caitlin's story is a huge mess.

[VCRTracking]

I wonder if the scenario the writers have with Caitlin is like on American Dad where one of Steve's friends  Barry is this simpleton ala Ralph Wiggum. In an episode in the first season it's revealed his parents give him "vitamins" which are revealed to be "violence suppression" pills make him slow because without them he becomes an evil genius sociopath(voiced by Craig Kilborn doing a British accent):

 

Like Caitlin was born with her powers like the DC equivalent of a mutant but it also made her super aggressive so her parents a way to suppress them so she'd be "normal".

Edited May 20, 2018 by VCRTracking

[BeautifulFlower]

I just want them to acknowledge Caitlin and killer Frost are the same person. That everything Caitlin did as KF was of her own free doing. No more "Oh Killer Frost was responsible for that, not Caitlin."

[Kate45]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:08 PM, KirkB said:

It IS a mess, but I think that's the point. Mind you, I don't think it's a point the Flash writers are deliberately making, except to say that time travel can be messy. I think the idea is pre-Flashpoint Caitlin was an ordinary girl with nothing special in her DNA, unlike Cisco who had the meta ability waiting for the particle accelerator to blow up in his face. Then Flashpoint happened and while Cisco didn't change apparently Caitlin's genetics got scrambled (as did that of DIggle and Lyla's child) and not only did she have a meta gene but it was one that existed outside of the particle accelerator or the bus. There was at least one guy in the past, Deathbolt, who had powers and yet was not in Central City at the time of the dark matter explosion. I'm curious to see where Caitlin's story is going to be honest.

Actually, based on the age of the girl in the flashback, I don't think Barry creating FlashPoint had anything to do with why she became Killer Frost.

2 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 

I just want them to acknowledge Caitlin and killer Frost are the same person. That everything Caitlin did as KF was of her own free doing. No more "Oh Killer Frost was responsible for that, not Caitlin."

It's funny because I just watched 3x07, and that's exactly what was insinuated. It was certainly written as Caitlin without inhibitions. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Kate45

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I just want them to acknowledge Caitlin and killer Frost are the same person. That everything Caitlin did as KF was of her own free doing. No more "Oh Killer Frost was responsible for that, not Caitlin."

Or just as bad, in 4x5, they had Iris say that Savitar was "manipulating KF" last season. Talk about a retcon. When KF threatened to freeze Iris' arm off in the same episode, was that still manipulation by a dead Savitar?

They just can't admit what's obvious: KF is Caitlin's darkside, but still Caitlin. Why else would Caitlin want KF back? 

Edited May 21, 2018 by adora721

[RobertDeSneero]

On 5/17/2018 at 10:46 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

I get that, but if they could make a call to the forgettable Council of Harrisons, couldn't they get Jesse or someone else to help out, Or maybe some Earth locals from Team Arrow.
The Legends at least.

This is the nature of a shared universe.  It's just easier to assume that anyone else who could help is unavailable for unspecified reasons.  If they try to explain it on-screen, it often comes up as a weak explanation because it would take a third of an episode to run down the list of everyone who might be useful.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

This is the nature of a shared universe.  It's just easier to assume that anyone else who could help is unavailable for unspecified reasons.  If they try to explain it on-screen, it often comes up as a weak explanation because it would take a third of an episode to run down the list of everyone who might be useful.

I mean they could've gotten Wally to help. When this episode was being written, Legends was done filming. Wally didn't have to have that many scenes.

[ottoDbusdriver]

42 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I mean they could've gotten Wally to help. When this episode was being written, Legends was done filming. Wally didn't have to have that many scenes.

I would think that since everyone on Team Arrow (and the rest of the planet) were all about to get 'enlightened,' that they would have a vested interested in helping to defeat DeVoe. or be turned into the intellectual equivalent of Grandpa Simpson.

[Whodunnit]

Did anyone catch the name of Caitlin's father?

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Did anyone catch the name of Caitlin's father?

I don't think it was mentioned in this episode. I'm not sure if her father's name has ever been mentioned on the show.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:59 AM, KirkB said:

I could be wrong but I don't think that's exactly true.

Prior to Flashpoint, Caitlin was not a meta. She checked herself and didn't even possess the meta gene.

Flashpoint altered the timeline. Caitlin has had Killer Frost in her since she was a kid NOW but that wasn't true before Barry went back and saved his mom.

Caitlin never had powers before Flashpoint, just like Diggle and Lyla didn't have a son and Cisco's brother was alive.

And again, Caitlin's powers have been a part of since before pre-Flashpoint. 

Barry saving his mother has no effect on events that happened before the night of Nora's death.  

Diggle's child, Cisco's brothers passing - they were affected by Flashpoint because they were events that happened after the night Barry saved Nora. 

 

So Caitlin has always had these powers - and they had nothing whatsoever to do with Barry or Flashpoint. So all her horrid behavior in season 3 - behavior that was justified because she was wronged - is not justified.

Will the show address this? Or will Caitlin continue to wear her Accountability-Proof White Woman Armour?

[Maverick]

 I don't think they've specifically stated that Flashpoint only changed things after the night Nora died.  And even if that's the case, Flashpoint still could have changed her.  Caitlin looked about the same age as Barry in that Flashback, so if that was the first time her powers manifested it was around and plausibly after Nora died.  

[Katsullivan]

9 hours ago, Maverick said:

 I don't think they've specifically stated that Flashpoint only changed things after the night Nora died. 

Because they don't have to say that. That's the only way it works. Flashpoint cannot change events that preceded it. 

Caitlin's powers magically manifesting on the same night that Nora died is just that - magic. 

[Kate45]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:59 AM, KirkB said:

I could be wrong but I don't think that's exactly true.

Prior to Flashpoint, Caitlin was not a meta. She checked herself and didn't even possess the meta gene.

Flashpoint altered the timeline. Caitlin has had Killer Frost in her since she was a kid NOW but that wasn't true before Barry went back and saved his mom.

Caitlin never had powers before Flashpoint, just like Diggle and Lyla didn't have a son and Cisco's brother was alive.

So, here's my official guess on the KF storyline. 

We always believed that Caitlin didn't have powers before FlashPoint because of Wells metahuman alert machine. However, I think it could only check for dark matter, not gene anomalies. When Cisco and Harry checked Caitlin initially after touching The Thinker, she didn't have dark matter. When she checked her genes, she found out she had it again. 

I think that Caitlin's father may have had the same gene, and somehow he curtailed her powers with an experiment. The powers became dormant in her system as a result. In the FlashPoint timeline, the dark matter activated her powers, but that didn't happen in the season 1 timeline. Either way, she had the powers the whole time. I think that Caitlin is somehow a mutant, which makes her different from any other meta human we have seen on the show so far. 

[Katsullivan]

@Kate45 Yes that also makes sense. LOL both Doylistically and Watsonianly. On the Watsonian level, her meta powers have always been against the rule book. She's the only meta that had a split personality and all the attendant peculiarities that went with it. So it makes sense that she can't be a run-of-the-mill particle explosion-type meta. 

On the Doylistic perspective ---- of course CS is going to have Super Speshul Meta powers from her Super Speshul Magic Meta Bloodline. Everything about the writing for Caitlin Snow is about "precious-ing" her. Of course, her meta powers will also have "precious" origins.

 

And yeah, it definitely makes sense that Flashpoint changed her powers being "activated". But you can also argue, that working in Star Labs with all its attendant hazards, there's a good chance that her powers would have been activated/triggered anyway. Remember her suppression is as much Physical as Mental. For all we know, it wasn't the "Dark matter" that activated post-Flashpoint Caity's powers, it might have been a combination of altered emotional milestones - including maybe Ronnie and/or her father dying under different circumstances.

As we've been constantly reminded about her traumas and losses, maybe in pre-Flashpoint timeline, her powers would still have  manifested around the same time. Especially if we consider that meeting Killer Frost from Earth-2 was almost definitely part of the triggers.

[Maverick]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Because they don't have to say that. That's the only way it works. Flashpoint cannot change events that preceded it. 

Caitlin's powers magically manifesting on the same night that Nora died is just that - magic. 

Based on what?   There's no real world time travel to extrapolate from.  It's a comic book show.  The "rules" are whatever they want them to be...and will be ignored if they so choose.  And I didn't same the same night.  I said she looked around the same.  Based on what we've seen we don't know if that flashback was before or after, but either is reasonable.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Maverick

[Trini]

In general, an event shouldn't be able to change events that happened before it; only what happens after. But I agree with you that the rules can be whatever the writers want them to be.

So it looks like they moving away from Caitlin/KF's powers being connected to the particle accelerator explosion with this new twist. Whatever - as long as her arc doesn't keep putting her teammates in danger - AGAIN. There was one metahuman that had powers not from the PAE (Deathbolt in Season 1), but the show never explored it.

[Kate45]

11 hours ago, Maverick said:

Based on what?   There's no real world time travel to extrapolate from.  It's a comic book show.  The "rules" are whatever they want them to be...and will be ignored if they so choose.  And I didn't same the same night.  I said she looked around the same.  Based on what we've seen we don't know if that flashback was before or after, but either is reasonable.

It is true that this show has never worked under any specific set of rules for time travel. Since they are clearly going to play with it again next season, I hope that changes. However, typically in shows with time travel things are only impacted after the fixed point. On this show, they have stated multiple times that Nora's death is that fixed point. So, it would make sense that if she had these powers before the night of Nora's death it would not have been changed due to FlashPoint. We are dealing with about 5 or 6 timelines on this show at this point, but the major point remains Nora's death. 

Take for example Barry and Iris' relationship. In season 1, Barry and Iris were best friends from a young age and lived together for several years due to his mother's murder. In the timeline where Eobard didn't kill Barry's mom, Barry and Iris were still good friends as children and got married at a younger age than what happened on the show. However, in the Flashpoint timeline, Barry and Iris were good friends but ultimately their friendship ended over the years. It sounds as if everything up to the point of Nora's murder was about the same. Her death is a fixed point in all of their lives. 

Of course, this could change with the newest season. This is just my current understanding of time travel based on how the show has explained the concept so far.