S04.E22: Think Fast

[Trini]

Quote

When DeVoe assaults an A.R.G.U.S. facility to complete his Enlightenment Machine, Barry realizes the only way he can stop him is if he allows Cisco  and Caitlin to accompany him into the facility. Still shaken by Ralph's death, Barry isn't sure he wants to risk any more of his friends' lives and considers taking on DeVoe solo.

Viet Nguyen directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen & Kristen Kim

[scarynikki12]

Always nice to see Diggle. At least they prepared for his nausea. 

[RandomWatcher]

 If this is happening worldwide, will Arrow show any of it

[Primal Slayer]

WTF was this episode?

It was literally all over the place, as if they didn't know what they were doing or how to lead up to the finale. The finale is next week and what do we get? Cecil gets to be a comedienne who is now taking on other peoples personalities! Who cares about this? We don't need this dumb ass story.

This Wells going dumb storyline is stupid. This Iris writing a think piece that gets all of CC to rally against DeVoe is stupid...

Diggle was gone in a blink of an eye, as fast as he came in, he came out even faster it seemed. For Argus to play such a big role I was expecting him to be around more.

So Caitlin is a meta human before meta humans were cool? And then of course it is just dropped and probably wont be explored until next season...

The only thing that really impressed me was the DeVoe fight at the beginning of the episode. It was a cool meta fight. 

But wow what a bad 22nd episode.  

[cambridgeguy]

Barry acts like kind of a dick even though he's got understandable reasons?  Yup.

Devoe is once again a step ahead of Team Flash and deals them yet another crushing defeat?  Yup.

This wouldn't be such a problem if it hadn't been happening all season.  I really, really hope we're done with the world domination types after this season. 

Hey, whatever happened to Diggle?  I don't know what he was doing at the moment but considering they had 12 hours until doomsday you'd think he's stick around to at least try and help.

[BeautifulFlower]

I liked the opening scene. The fight was awesome.

It really irritated me that they had Cisco and Caitlin basically explain to Barry how his flashtime worked. It's HIS power. Barry's the speedster and should have figured this out on his own. This is why I hate the team aspect.

I still don't care about Caitlin/Killer Frost. I will say they need to stop treating KF as a separate person. If you're going to call her personality, then I need them to accept that Killer Frost is Caitlin. No more blaming things on just KF. What Caitlin did last season, was her. Are they seriously going to retcon this again?

When this episode was written, Legends of Tomorrow was done filming. They could've used Wally, but no we had to waste time.

Edited May 16, 2018 by BeautifulFlower

[Lady Calypso]

Yep. Sam Chalsen is most definitely obsessed with writing bitchy women scenes (and I have no doubt those particular scenes were his). I like Iris, but she was real bitchy toward Harry when he was trying to help. Not that Iris was wrong in feeling hurt after Marlize attacked her, but most everything else. Also, Sam Chalsen, women aren't all bitches about tracking mud through their homes. I hope he doesn't come back to the show next season. Seriously, between his Bridezilla scenes in separate episodes and this, I'm not really sure Sam knows that women don't need to be bitchy in order to be funny. 

I appreciate a Harry/Iris subplot, regardless. Candice and Tom never get to work together.

Oh look, Barry trying to dictate everyone's roles because of his guilt over Ralph. Yawn. The only new stuff was Cisco finally telling him that he needs to stop making these decisions alone. 

I'm really sick of this Killer Frost stuff. I get Caitlin is mourning but I was hoping that KF stuff would be done. Give Caitlin powers, fine, not an alter ego who was around before the particle accelerator. So, next season, what, are we going to see a dozen metas show up who have had powers for decades? Lame.

Cecile/Joe's plot was....eh. Danielle's very funny, but her comedic storylines thus far have only made me roll my eyes. 

Nice fight scene at the beginning. And I did like the end with Iris, Harry, and Marlize. Other than that? Too much whiplash between each of the stories.

[BeautifulFlower]

Also how does DeVoe know about Gideon? Or the time vault?

[tennisgurl]

I just picture the therapist everyone goes to exchanging emails with Doctor Linda on Lucifer, mutually complaining about all the ridiculous super powered/magical shenanigans they have to deal with, just trying to do their jobs. 

I was happy to get an Iris/Harry plot, as they hardly ever get scenes together, but I thought Iris was needlessly mean to him throughout, especially when he came by her house. It seemed really OOC for Iris, who is usually a very compassionate person. But now its "ugggg my friend got brain damage trying to save my husband what an inconvenience for me" and that just comes off horribly. I get her not wanting to give Marlize the benefit of the doubt, but she could at least not be a jerk about it. I hope they can help him, because Harry losing his mind is really depressing, even when they try to play it for comedy. I would think they would call Jessie at some point. 

At least Wally got a brief mention. 

More trauma and drama for Caitlin. Now going back into her past? Because we dont have enough Caitlin angst already about Killer Frost, and her powers, and her string of dead boyfriends, and...

Why was Barry getting lectured about the speedforce. He lived in the speedforce! Its his power! I actually thought his jerkiness was a bit more justified than usual with regards to Caitlin and Cisco, at least more than in the rest of the season. 

The fight scene at the beginning was really cool and well put together. It was a good use of DeVoes many powers. And the last scene was good to. It seems like it might lead to some actually interesting stuff next week.

Hi Diggle! Bye Diggle! Hey, maybe you could ask Barry grab that mumbling asshole giving you trouble back home and dump him in a prison on the other side of the country? Or something? Should take about five seconds? Just a thought.

Edited May 16, 2018 by tennisgurl

[dkb]

It was stupid, but for some reason I really enjoyed this episode.

Don't care about Killer Frost/Caitlin, although a bunch of you guys called it that she's always had this split personality inside her! You guys are smart!!

I loved Iris in this episode, from her outfit (shallow) to her talking to Marlize at the end. Depending on what happens, I was right about Marlize and Iris having some kind of connection in a way.

 

I did not read Iris being mean at all to Harry. Just that she got a little justifiably angry when Harry went on about Marlize. I thought she was being too nice in a way, Harry did that to himself in a way because he was mad/sad? that he wasn't the smartest person ever. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by dkb

[Lantern7]

Let me guess . . . DeVoe has everybody at his mercy, and then he gets thwarted by Harry. Fuck it, Tom Cavanagh is Simple Harry. Word of warning: never, ever, ever go Full Simple Harry.

Fitting that a series centered on a speedster would be going Mach 3 into the finale. Main plot, Caitlin being a meta before the particle acceleration accident, Cecile's powers make her wonkier, Barry still guilt-tripping over Ralph . . . and Mystery Girl is still out there.

DeVoe? On the one hand, I think we'll be glad when he's gone. But is he really that bad? Especially compared to Zoom and Savitar? Also, this hasn't been the best year for Arrowverse villeins. DeVoe is basically in God Mode 24/7, Reign keeps trying to get sympathy with her human shell, and Diaz just fucking sucks. Mallus? Great concept, but he was mostly John Noble behind a mic, which Damien Dark doing the heavy lifting.

Nice opening, with DeVoe pwning everyone in sight. Slow-motion makes everything better. Aside: how is it that anytime Ralph or Cliff posed as someone, it's usually been a black guy? Just an observation. I welcome David Ramsey in any form. Diggle is basically the rock of Team Arrow, and therefore the Arrowverse itself. Then he rides the Flash Express, and the image is shattered. It is funny that his speed puking is now a running gag.

38 minutes ago, RandomWatcher said:

 If this is happening worldwide, will Arrow show any of it

Like I said: DeVoe has been experimenting on Star City for months. That's my take, because it would explain so much. You think Diaz and his mumblegrowl could take over Star City? Bullshit . . . the people there (including Team Arrow) have gotten dumber, or at least more simple.

ETA: So . . . .Caitlin's power activated after a bike accident and getting hit by a car? DAMN. She's a trooper with baggage like that.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Lantern7

[BeautifulFlower]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Why was Barry getting lectured about the speedforce. He lived n the speedforce! Its his power! I actually thought his jerkiness was a bit more justified than usual with regards to Caitlin and Cisco, at least more than in the rest of the season. 

 

THIS?!!!! It made no sense for Cisco and Caitlin to tell him how Flashtime exactly works. 

[BeautifulFlower]

This whole Killer Frost ting is another retcon. How did she go her whole life without knowing? After the particle accelerator, Caitlin ran tests on herself and she didn't discover the cryogenic thing in her DNA until now? Come on, this makes absolutely no sense.

[ottoDbusdriver]

39 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

WTF was this episode?

It was literally all over the place, as if they didn't know what they were doing or how to lead up to the finale. The finale is next week and what do we get? Cecil gets to be a comedienne who is now taking on other peoples personalities! Who cares about this? We don't need this dumb ass story.

This Wells going dumb storyline is stupid. This Iris writing a think piece that gets all of CC to rally against DeVoe is stupid...

Diggle was gone in a blink of an eye, as fast as he came in, he came out even faster it seemed. For Argus to play such a big role I was expecting him to be around more.

So Caitlin is a meta human before meta humans were cool? And then of course it is just dropped and probably wont be explored until next season...

The only thing that really impressed me was the DeVoe fight at the beginning of the episode. It was a cool meta fight. 

But wow what a bad 22nd episode.  

It really was bad, wasn't it ?

Again with so .... many ... peptalks.

So is that Vibe scene implying that Caitlin had Killer Frost within her all the time, and the Star Labs explosion had nothing to do with KF appearing.  Give me a break.

A world impacting event like the Enlightenment should have all hands on deck level of urgency a la the invasion from Earth-X or the Dominators -- so where the hell is everyone else from the DCU ?  Especially Supergirl and Superman.

Is Wells going to become so dumb and do something horrible that Barry will have to make him go look at the flowers.  Just look at the flowers, Harry.

Devoe has become fully Sylared and is basically unstoppable -- but I;m sure he will be defeated by love or some such nonsense.

[catrice2]

Oh my goodness....this has gotten so bad that an hour seems like 7...who is writing this?   I bet Candice Patton wishes Iris had left last season.......she didn't even get the big wedding scene..upstaged by Arrrow

[Lady Calypso]

23 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

This whole Killer Frost ting is another retcon. How did she go her whole life without knowing? After the particle accelerator, Caitlin ran tests on herself and she didn't discover the cryogenic thing in her DNA until now? Come on, this makes absolutely no sense.

Flashpoint.

No, seriously, it's Flashpoint. Caitlin only started getting powers after Flashpoint. So basically, the first two seasons are questionable in this timeline. We don't know what stayed the same and what changed. And since Diggle's own child can change from female to male, I'm not surprised Caitlin developed meta schizophrenia. 

I just thought the quick flashback to little Caitlin when they were training was going to be some discovery of how she developed schizophrenia, which later developed into Killer Frost when the particle accelerator exploded. Nope, this is ten times dumber than that. 

[ramble]

Well this was, um, an episode. I can not stand Devoe. His hubris is so over the top it tips into boring instead of interesting. Ugh. 

However one thing saved this episode for me: Cisco said “Frell me!” and I fell a little in love. 

[phoenics]

Damn Devoe!  That sequence of him DEMOLISHING all of the Argus guards was absolutely AMAZING to watch.  Wow.

That's all I got.

[KirkB]

Devoe being 27 steps ahead of Team Flash and so far not losing, at all, is getting tiring. Good thing it's almost over. And yet, I am still happier with Devoe than I was by this point with Zoom or Savitar. No one will ever be able to stack up to original recipe Eobard Thawne but at least, to me, Devoe more interesting than either of Barry's previous two enemies. Not a high bar, I admit.

Cecile hasn't even had the baby yet and I'm already bored with it. That does not bode well. Then again, I don't generally likes kids in my shows.

So...the whole satellite thing was a lie Devoe made up just to distract Barry and company, in order to get into Thawne's time vault? That...seems a lot more convoluted than it needed to be. He's apparently been monitoring Team Flash this whole time, he was aware of everything going on at STAR Labs (including Harry and his thinking cap, which he used IN the vault) so I can accept him knowing it and Gideon existed. But given how easily he took down the Argus site, he could have easily waltzed into STAR Labs, taken out Barry and his team, and then accessed the vault at his leisure. Wasting so much time coming up with the satellite thing which didn't amount to anything makes it seem like Devoe was aware of the script and just stretching out the plot.

Speaking of Argus, so a major facility of theirs gets attacked and Lyla seems to be completely unaware?

Caitlin having been Killer Frost when she was a kid...I have no idea. Then again, I actually like how DP looks in the makeup, but I'm still not really sure why half the team needs to have powers. I liked it better when it was just Barry.

[Cthulhudrew]

Augh! They did it again! Talk about one thing and have it lead to a revelation about another thing entirely! I am so sick of the writers constantly using that as a narrative device on this show. It's just a crutch. A cliched, hackneyed tool when used every episode (sometimes multiple times per episode). That well has run dry, Flashwritersroom. Please pick some new forms of narrative storytelling already.

And another dumb thing- they spent last episode and the beginning of this one telling us how Devoe needed to launch his satellites from an airfield (because that's the latitude he needs, according to Cisco) and when the time comes, all he does is wave his hands and let them float into the air as they grow. No lauching, just floating. M'kay.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[VCRTracking]

I thought Caitlin's repressed memory was that her dad died trying to save her from being hit by a car. It turns out she had powers before the particle accelerator explosion? She's always been Killer Frost?!

Wait. What if Caitlin wasn't the real personality and she was actually born Killer Frost?!

Edited May 16, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

So this was actually a lot better than I expected, however, I did go in with low expectations.

Disappointed that Diggle wasn't in this much. Did like seeing David Ramsey play DeVoe, though! They're going to have to change up the 'Barry whooshes Diggle then he vomits' gag, though. I think it's getting stale.

I'm guessing that scene at ARGUS was the big action sequence that Sandilands had mentioned in an interview.

Joe keeps a katana in his house! 4 years of Flash-related nonsense has taught him well. So I assume Cecile's new power is this year's deus ex machina to stop DeVoe next episode. I didn't really mind Cecile's comic subplot, but it did seem out of place in a tension-filled penultimate episode.

Speaking of tension, it seems everyone was kinda fighting/at odds with someone at one point or another. However, I did kind of like the argument between Cisco and Barry near the end because these two have rarely had scenes together lately, and it brought up some things that have been glossed over for most of the season. And Harry and Iris have almost never been teamed up.

I like how Dr. Finkel has been a recurring character this season.

So they make Caitlin/KF's story more complicated by retconning her retcon. Awesome. ?  I wish I could care less, but I do want some consistency for her character. It sucks that they had to cram all this character reboot stuff into these final episodes.

The writers have been really lazy this season with characters just knowing things for plot, with no explanations. This time Harry just knows Marlize left Clifford, Iris just knows where Marlize is, DeVoe just knows... everything.

I was enjoying that the team finally got a win by destroying the satellite; that was a great 5 minutes.

Return of "This house is..." -- I hope this pays off next week.

[adora721]

3 hours ago, dkb said:

Don't care about Killer Frost/Caitlin, although a bunch of you guys called it that she's always had this split personality inside her! You guys are smart!!

 

Actually, even Hunter Zolomon (Zoom) told Caitlin he saw darkness in her when he held her prisoner at the CCPD station back in S2. One psycho saw the psycho in the other person, no wonder Hunter was drawn to her.

[Trini]

Couple other things:

I liked that ARGUS upgraded their security after Barry's stunt last season year; too bad they have to upgrade AGAIN because of DeVoe!

So, I guess this is a minor nitpick since they can easily say he changed his mind or got further corrupt, but earlier in the season, DeVoe said "What is enlightenment without love" and now love is the worst, apparently.

Another nitpick: Every season's Big Bad has had some reason* to not take out The Flash (when they easily could have) but 22 episodes in, nothing from DeVoe.

*[yeah, because he's the lead, but they've always had story reason too.]

Oh, and I really liked the callback to Earth-2 Westallen with the "I love you" + kiss before going off on a dangerous mission. Also Iris looked fly in that outfit!

And Wally better have a cameo in the finale!

 

19 hours ago, KirkB said:

So...the whole satellite thing was a lie Devoe made up just to distract Barry and company, in order to get into Thawne's time vault? That...seems a lot more convoluted than it needed to be. He's apparently been monitoring Team Flash this whole time, he was aware of everything going on at STAR Labs (including Harry and his thinking cap, which he used IN the vault) so I can accept him knowing it and Gideon existed. But given how easily he took down the Argus site, he could have easily waltzed into STAR Labs, taken out Barry and his team, and then accessed the vault at his leisure. Wasting so much time coming up with the satellite thing which didn't amount to anything makes it seem like Devoe was aware of the script and just stretching out the plot.

I don't think the satellites were a trick. I think this was an actual win for Team Flash - but DeVoe had a backup plan to use the STAR Labs satellite.

 

20 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Why was Barry getting lectured about the speedforce. He lived n the speedforce! Its his power! I actually thought his jerkiness was a bit more justified than usual with regards to Caitlin and Cisco, at least more than in the rest of the season.

THIS?!!!! It made no sense for Cisco and Caitlin to tell him how Flashtime exactly works. 

They just can't let Barry be smart. I really hope they do next season, but ... HARSH SIGH

Edited May 16, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry acts like kind of a dick even though he's got understandable reasons?  Yup.

...

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yep. Sam Chalsen is most definitely obsessed with writing bitchy women scenes (and I have no doubt those particular scenes were his). I like Iris, but she was real bitchy toward Harry when he was trying to help. Not that Iris was wrong in feeling hurt after Marlize attacked her, but most everything else. Also, Sam Chalsen, women aren't all bitches about tracking mud through their homes. I hope he doesn't come back to the show next season. Seriously, between his Bridezilla scenes in separate episodes and this, I'm not really sure Sam knows that women don't need to be bitchy in order to be funny. ...

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

... I was happy to get an Iris/Harry plot, as they hardly ever get scenes together, but I thought Iris was needlessly mean to him throughout, especially when he came by her house. It seemed really OOC for Iris, who is usually a very compassionate person. But now its "ugggg my friend got brain damage trying to save my husband what an inconvenience for me" and that just comes off horribly. I get her not wanting to give Marlize the benefit of the doubt, but she could at least not be a jerk about it....

Everyone was being antagonistic in this episode. It was odd. They really need to get rid of these two writers in particular.

[Starry]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yep. Sam Chalsen is most definitely obsessed with writing bitchy women scenes (and I have no doubt those particular scenes were his). I like Iris, but she was real bitchy toward Harry when he was trying to help. Not that Iris was wrong in feeling hurt after Marlize attacked her, but most everything else. Also, Sam Chalsen, women aren't all bitches about tracking mud through their homes. I hope he doesn't come back to the show next season. Seriously, between his Bridezilla scenes in separate episodes and this, I'm not really sure Sam knows that women don't need to be bitchy in order to be funny.

I haven't watched the episode yet but if Iris not being a "bitch" means she just has to take people's rudeness and lack of tact, like in the case of Olicity interrupting her third attempt at getting married, then she can be a "bitch" all she wants.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Starry

[thuganomics85]

OK, I love me some Diggle, but they only use him briefly for two scenes?  And neither one of them was really needed as DeVoe could have easily disguised himself as any random ARGUS agent and the it would have still worked, and Team Flash easily could have talked to Diggle over the phone.  It was just bizarre.  I wonder if they originally were going to use him more, but then Arrow suddenly need David Ramsey back stat (probably after they realized the Noobs suck that badly), and a bunch of stuff got cut.  Overall, it was a pretty disappointing appearance.

Of course, disappointing is a description of this episode (and, really) season in general.  Basically, they go through some big deal about Barry taking Cisco and Caitlin into Flashtime in order to save some agents, Barry then manages to destroy one of DeVoe's satellites, only for DeVoe to basically go "Sucker!  I'll just use one of S.T.A.R. Labs satellites instead!", and basically made the entire episode be a waste.  And this is the penultimate episode of all things!  Way to go big, show!

Meanwhile, apparently the show decided to suddenly make Iris a jerk, by having her be overtly-harsh and dismissive of Harry's idea about turning Marlize.  It is totally understandable why Iris would be cautious considering their history, but she was too hostile here.  Of course, I read above that one of the writers also did those dumb Bridezilla scenes from "Luck Be a Lady", so I now wonder if he just hates the character for some reason.  Still, it was a nice change of pace to see Iris/Harry pair off, and I'm glad it is bringing Marlize back into the fold.

Joe and Cecile seem to be transported into an actual sitcom, but I guess it was nice at least having some lighter moments compared to the rest.

So, now Caitlin might have actually had her powers before the particle accelerator explosion?  Alrighty, then!

Barry and Cisco's fight got intense, but at least they didn't go full Arrow and turn it into a silly Civil War plot!

DeVoe's massacre of the ARGUS agents was actually well done and actually sold him as a main villain for a second.  But that doesn't make-up for the rest of the episode having him go through the normal Bad Guy 1.0. playbook, right down to him claiming that the Enlightenment will actually help the human race by ending war, starvation, etc.  Although I did love his line about kids "putting down their phones."  I think I would have actually preferred it if they went all in, and had his true motivations be to stick it to those "damn millennials!"   

Well, at least the season is ending next week.  Can't believe I'm saying this but maybe another Flashpoint is in fact in order?

[mxc90]

After all that Devoe still won.

(At Star Labs) Cisco told Barry: we all lost somebody but that never gives us  an excuse to shut each other out. It's good to see Cisco have learned after not talking to Barry for his brother's situation.

Does Devoe have the power to bring people back from the dead? I believe some of those ARGUS guards were killed in their first confrontation with him and then they all raised up to fight one another.

Did Caitlin's father create Killer Frost. I will bet he's the one that caused the pickup truck to miss hitting young Cait in the street. He may not be dead.

[Maverick]

The ARGUS agents were dead.  Devoe was able to reanimate them with his Black Bison powers.  Most of the bus metas powers have had some specific use in his plan, but Black Bison, Hazard and The Fiddler's powers just seem to be random powers that Devoe uses to look cool when some other power would do.  

After all this talk about Caitlin's father, I'm guessing that Caitlin accidentally killed him and that's what caused the split personality and repressed memories. 

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I haven't watched the episode yet but if Iris not being a "bitch" means she just has to take people's rudeness and lack of tact, like in the case of Olicity interrupting her third attempt at getting married, then she can be a "bitch" all she wants.

Once you watch the episode, I think it'll put things more into context. Iris was downright rude toward Harry. At one point, I feel like she rolled her eyes at Harry's struggles. She snapped at him several times when he was trying to help. She got annoyed when she heard his voice outside her apartment. Then she told him to take off his shoes because he was tracking mud in her home. Iris has never obsessed about these little things or been randomly antagonistic before. Harry wasn't being rude in any way, shape or form. He was trying to be helpful, even with his brain damage. He may have put himself in this new position, but what's done is done and he can't control his actions. It was just an odd sequence of events. It got better once they found Marlize, of course, but most of the subplot didn't reflect well for Iris. Just like Barry pulling the "I'm going to protect my friends by refusing to train them" arc reflected badly for him (and Caitlin's actions last episode with trying to get KF back). Not that the show is trying to tell me that, but that's how I see it. 

And it's simply a pattern with one particular writer. He also wrote the Luck Be a Lady episode, where Iris crashed a funeral with Barry in order to get married (which, while not bitchy, was just odd and not really funny). He wrote the scene where Iris did bitch about the wedding gift from Oliver/Felicity, which is out of character for her. She has never been the type to care about these things and make passive aggressive comments. The writer seems to associate Iris with being petty, which bugs me. I just don't like the pattern. It can make sense in context, but the writer turns it into a "comedic" moment, which ends up falling flat and, for me, completely undermines the character. 

[Gregg247]

Barry's plan worked.  He saved the ARGUS staff, followed DeVoe through his portal, and destroyed the satellite.  THEN.....he just stood there on the street letting DeVoe talk about how smart he was for 5 minutes before DeVoe finally just left.  I was yelling at the screen for Barry to whisk DeVoe away to a cell in STAR labs.  Why didn't Barry do something--anything?!?!?  This made no sense at all.  Barry had him; he HAD him.....but then he did nothing.  WHY?

I love anything having to do with Caitlyn/KF, but when KF finally reappears, I hope she's actually competent at using her powers this time.  Also, I had a huge crush on Donna Pescow (Barry's psychiatrist) back in the day when she was starring in "Angie", so its always a treat to see her pop up here.

[benteen]

More filler before the season finale.  I agree this episode was all over the place and what the hell was up with Iris in this episode?  Reminded me of Arrow writing where they write their characters to fit their scripts and not the scripts to fit their characters.  She was over-the-top hostile to Harry who was right all along and what the hell was up with the mud on the floor crazy rant?  It was like a completely different character they were writing here.

I did think Devoe using his powers was a cool sequence (that seemed to be inspired by the Marvel Netflix one-shot fight sequences) and Diggle as Devoe was fun.  But that shows the problem too with the shared universe.  A threat like this should be all hands on deck.  What does Diggle have to do that is more important than this?

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't see Iris in this episode as OOC. I'm glad to see this side of Iris. It may look OOC to people because since season 2, Iris is not allowed to be upset over things. They have always written Iris to be nice and nothing ever bothers her. It's a terrible trope-the strong black woman trope. I want to see this Iris once in while. She's human and is allowed these type of feelings. I will admit some of her actions towards Harry was uncalled for. 

About the mud thing, anybody would be upset if someone just came in and tracked mud throughout their home. That's disrespectful

[ruby24]

The rant from Iris about mud on the floor led to her speech about the apartment being the first place she shared with Barry, etc. so I'm thinking that must be significant somehow for next week. Plus, this week gave us the last reminder of "the house is bitchin'" line, so that has to be paying off next week. That could be related. Everyone has thought it must be the West house, but maybe it's the loft.

[BeautifulFlower]

How many times are they going to retcon/reboot Killer Frost story? Every time they try to make this thing make sense, it only gets worse. Seriously, how can you go your whole life without knowing you had powers?

[Maverick]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

The rant from Iris about mud on the floor led to her speech about the apartment being the first place she shared with Barry, etc. so I'm thinking that must be significant somehow for next week. Plus, this week gave us the last reminder of "the house is bitchin'" line, so that has to be paying off next week. That could be related. Everyone has thought it must be the West house, but maybe it's the loft.

It was significant in this episode.  Iris' rant about the floor led to her commenting her home was special because it was the first place she lived with Barry which led her to deduce where Marlize was hiding. 

As for "this house is bitchin" I'm assuming it's going to be revealed something was wonky with Cisco's translation program.  Mystery Girl will probably be like "no it says 'This house has mud on the floor'" or something. 

[adora721]

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

How many times are they going to retcon/reboot Killer Frost story? Every time they try to make this thing make sense, it only gets worse. Seriously, how can you go your whole life without knowing you had powers?

It was her mother that came up with the "cure" late in S3. Perhaps her mom also "cured" her as a child when KF first appeared, and she hoped the "cure" was permanent.  However, Flashpoint or some other stress brought KF out again. I'm sure the explanation will be clear as mud.

Edited May 16, 2018 by adora721

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

I did think Devoe using his powers was a cool sequence (that seemed to be inspired by the Marvel Netflix one-shot fight sequences) and Diggle as Devoe was fun.  But that shows the problem too with the shared universe.  A threat like this should be all hands on deck.  What does Diggle have to do that is more important than this?

It's especially bad when in the last Flashtime episode Barry had less than a second to stop a nuclear blast that would kill millions(?) so he got Jesse to recruit Jay.  Now he's got 12 hours to stop something that would reduce billions to idiocy .... and he doesn't bother getting any help and instead gambles on Cisco and Caitlin becoming instant experts in Flashtime.  I guess he also forgot about the end of season 1 - he knew he had to face down Thawne and actually grabbed Firestorm and Oliver to help even the odds. 

Small scale time travel should also be on the table.  If he had been so adamant about not using it then Vandal Savage would have nuked Central City and both Team Arrow and Team Flash.  Is anyone going to bleat about how that was a mistake?

[adora721]

I think the general crabbiness in all the characters, not just Iris, is a function of the stress they are all under. They know they only have 12 hours to save the entire world. That's a lot different from last season when trying to save only Iris.  This is a pressure cooker situation, and they've been beaten all year. It's not unrealistic to lose your manners and calm in such scenarios. Did anyone call Caitlin the "B" word last week when she went off on Iris and the team? Perhaps I missed those posts.

But Barry making the mistake of doing the heroic equivalent of the villain monologue was just stupid. Barry shoulda gloated once DeVoe was actually in Iron Heights or put in another Argus facility that still had meta dampening fields operative. It's clear that meta dampening does work on DeVoe, and since Barry has known about them since last season, why didn't he ask Lyla or Diggle for the plans to that technology so Cisco could add them to STAR Labs when needed? It would put DeVoe and the STAR Labs metas on the same playing field - no powers. 

Still don't know why Caitlin was evil last season especially since we now know KF was there when she was a child. Kids are usually not psychotically evil. Having Cecile apologize to Caitlin, the woman who put an icicle to her throat made me nauseated. Nope; never gonna like Caitlin like before since she's never apologized to the women she hurt.

And Caitlin is more worthy of Iris' ire than Marlize, IMO. Betrayal always stings worse when it's from a friend than an enemy.

Edited May 16, 2018 by adora721

[VCRTracking]

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

And Caitlin is more worthy of Iris' ire than Marlize, IMO. Betrayal always stings worse when it's from a friend than an enemy.

Well they weren't really "friends" until this season ;-)

At first I was annoyed at Iris dismissing Harry and not being able to put herself in Marlize's shoes until I realized I was doing the same thing in regards to Iris.

[BeautifulFlower]

29 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

 

At first I was annoyed at Iris dismissing Harry and not being able to put herself in Marlize's shoes until I realized I was doing the same thing in regards to Iris.

A lot of people seem to do this. People who like to rag on Iris for no reason (not ya'll) never tries to see things from her POV. And that's the writers fault. Back in 4x02, people were calling Iris selfish for being mad at Barry leaving instead of staying. They made it out as if the scene was portraying Iris not understanding his reasons.

[adora721]

29 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Well they weren't really "friends" until this season ;-)

Caitlin called them "work friends" this season; that's still a friend. And Caitlin knew since season 1 that Iris is Barry's best friend and the love of his life. Last season, Iris was Barry's girlfriend and then fiance. These are all reasons for Caitlin not to try to kill Iris since she's so important to Barry, who Caitlin does consider a best friend. 

[VCRTracking]

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin called them "work friends" this season; that's still a friend. And Caitlin knew since season 1 that Iris is Barry's best friend and the love of his life. Last season, Iris was Barry's girlfriend and then fiance. These are all reasons for Caitlin not to try to kill Iris since she's so important to Barry, who Caitlin does consider a best friend. 

But they've made it clear from the beginning that Killer Frost and Caitlin are separate personalities and that Caitlin was desperately trying not to become her and hurt people so Iris resenting Caitlin for KF's actions would make her come off as the unsympathetic one. Marlize on the other hand was voluntarily "ride and die" for Devoe from day one.

[Quark]

I really liked this episode.

Devoe's fight at the start of the episode was very cool.

Iris was great, especially in her scene with Marlize, but she said something that wasn't quite true. She said that Marlize stabbed her with the katana, but technically Iris stabbed herself with the katana whilst Marlize was trying to kill her. Just me being pedantic :P. 

I must say, my favourite thing about this season (which hasn't been the greatest) has been Cecile. She has been absolutely wonderful and I wouldn't mind seeing her become part of the main cast next season.

[Jack Kerouac]

4 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

Barry's plan worked.  He saved the ARGUS staff, followed DeVoe through his portal, and destroyed the satellite.  THEN.....he just stood there on the street letting DeVoe talk about how smart he was for 5 minutes before DeVoe finally just left.  I was yelling at the screen for Barry to whisk DeVoe away to a cell in STAR labs.  Why didn't Barry do something--anything?!?!?  This made no sense at all.  Barry had him; he HAD him.....but then he did nothing.  WHY?

Preach, brother. Why didn't Barry go into Flashtime and take Devoe to the Pipeline? Or snap his neck? Or quick-punch him in the balls 100 times so that when Barry left Flashtime, Devoe would be incapacitated? Why didn't he do ANYTHING?

[adora721]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

But they've made it clear from the beginning that Killer Frost and Caitlin are separate personalities and that Caitlin was desperately trying not to become her and hurt people so Iris resenting Caitlin for KF's actions would make her come off as the unsympathetic one.

It wasn't clear at all.

• In 3x7, Caitlin, not Killer Frost, kidnapped Julian to make him get rid of KF. Last I checked, kidnapping is a federal crime.
• In 3x7, Caitlin, not KF, threatened a man and his family so that man could lead Caitlin to Alchemy. Last I checked, threatening murder is also a crime.
• Also in 3x7, it was Caitlin, not KF, who saved Barry from Savitar by freezing Savitar.
• In the 3x9 Winter episode, it was Caitlin, not KF, who took off the dampening cuffs to make it snow. Like really? So scared to become KF, but I'll risk it to make it snow. Sure boo.
• In 3x4, it's Catilin, not KF, who freezes the mirror Barry is trapped in to free him. 
• In 3x23, it was Caitlin who attend HR's funeral and apologized to Cisco and Barry about what happened to HR. Why apologize if it's not Caitlin's fault?
• In 3x5, it was Caitlin who froze Nigel's arm to get out of the room he trapped her in. 
• In 3x12, it was Caitlin who, when begged to freeze Iris' arm said, "I can't, even if I wanted to...". Meaning she didn't want to help save Iris.
• In 4x1, it was Caitlin, not KF, who apologized to Joe West ( I don't know why since Joe does not represent Iris or Cecile who she actually did hurt). Again, why apologize if it's not Caitlin's fault?
• In 4x5, it's Caitlin who admits that she went to Amunet to get tech to get rid of Killer Frost. Caitlin admits she went to a slave trafficker and worked for Amunet instead of her friends.
• In 4x21, it's Caitlin who promises Amunet a favor in return for the DNA splicer to bring a "killer" friend back to her. Caitlin is promising to perform a criminal act (most likely) for a slave trafficker, again.

 

So, no. Not clear at all.

If anything, this recent episode cemented what many believed: Caitlin and Killer Frost are the same person. Caitlin Snow is the mask that Killer Frost hides behind.  And if they are indeed separate, why is Caitlin so desperately (and selfishly) trying to get back this other personality? DID is a mental disorder. Why would anyone want to get back a mental disorder after being "cured"? Why would Caitlin want to be split in two again? Answer: Caitlin wants herself whole because Killer Frost is Caitlin - the same person.

So, no, I don't think Iris being upset with Caitlin makes Iris unsympathetic.  Iris is a saint for forgiving that woman for aiding and abetting the man, Savitar, who tormented Iris for months.

Edited May 16, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

2 minutes ago, adora721 said:

It wasn't clear at all.

• In 3x7, Caitlin, not Killer Frost, kidnapped Julian.
• In 3x7, Caitlin, not KF, threatened a man and his family so that man could lead Caitlin to Alchemy.
• Also in 3x7, it was Caitlin, not KF, who saved Barry from Savitar by freezing Savitar.
• In the 3x9 Winter episode, it was Caitlin, not KF, who took off the dampening cuffs to make it snow. Like really?
• In 3x4, it's Catilin, not KF, who freezes the mirror Barry is trapped in to free him. 
• In 3x23, it was Caitlin who attend HR's funeral and apologized to Cisco and Barry about what happened to HR. Why apologize if it's not Caitlin's fault?
• In 4x1, it was Caitlin, not KF, who apologized to Joe West ( I don't know why). Again, why apologize if it's not Caitlin's fault?
• In 4x5, it's Caitlin who admits that she went to Amunet to get tech to get rid of Killer Frost. Caitlin admits she went to to a slave trafficker for help instead of her friends.
• In 4x21, it's Caitlin who promises Amunet a favor in return for the DNA splicer. Caitlin is promising to perform a criminal act (most likely) for a slave trafficker.

 

So, no. Not clear at all.

This is what happens when writers are afraid to change up the dynamic by letting Caitlin go evil all on her own. Nope, she gets free pass for trying to murder her friends.

Also, the writers don't understand how split personalities work. Killer Frost should not be treated as a separate person. She ain't no ghost possessing Cailin like this show is potraying. If they were trying to go for the Hulk/Banner type thing, they failed. I'm pretty sure they still treat and understand Hulk and Banner are the same person in Marvel.

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't see Iris in this episode as OOC. I'm glad to see this side of Iris. It may look OOC to people because since season 2, Iris is not allowed to be upset over things. They have always written Iris to be nice and nothing ever bothers her. It's a terrible trope-the strong black woman trope. I want to see this Iris once in while. She's human and is allowed these type of feelings. I will admit some of her actions towards Harry was uncalled for. 

About the mud thing, anybody would be upset if someone just came in and tracked mud throughout their home. That's disrespectful

I pretty much agree with this assessment. 

In general, I find it surprising to see so many people (not just on this site) upset about Iris' treatment of Harry. Was she perhaps a bit rude to him? I guess.

It's interesting since other people are constantly snapping at Iris and she just takes it for no reason. It was Barry doing it in 4x19, and Caitlin in 4x21. Again, most fans don't seem to have an issue with other people being rude, it's just an issue if she's rude. 

Quite frankly, if anyone on this show "deserves" poor treatment, it's Harry. He throws things at his team members almost every week, yells/shouts at team members almost every week. Just last week, Cisco started bracing himself to be hit with an object he thought Harry was going to throw. He was literally kicked off off of his own daughter's team for his behavior! 

Iris and Harry have had limited interactions, but I can't seem to recall any positive ones. I remember him taking a rude tone with her in 4x09 about her not making a decision fast enough. Again, I don't recall most fans having an issue with his behavior. Seems like a double standard to me. Everyone else is allowed emotions and to be stressed at certain times, except Iris. 

[VCRTracking]

39 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Also, the writers don't understand how split personalities work. Killer Frost should not be treated as a separate person. She ain't no ghost possessing Cailin like this show is potraying. If they were trying to go for the Hulk/Banner type thing, they failed. I'm pretty sure they still treat and understand Hulk and Banner are the same person in Marvel.

In Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War, they're definitely treated as two different people sharing the same body.

27 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't see Iris in this episode as OOC. I'm glad to see this side of Iris. It may look OOC to people because since season 2, Iris is not allowed to be upset over things. They have always written Iris to be nice and nothing ever bothers her. It's a terrible trope-the strong black woman trope. I want to see this Iris once in while. She's human and is allowed these type of feelings. I will admit some of her actions towards Harry was uncalled for. 

About the mud thing, anybody would be upset if someone just came in and tracked mud throughout their home. That's disrespectful

 

27 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I pretty much agree with this assessment.

Me too. As annoyed as I was initially I also liked that they were showing her as not perfect and flawed just like the other characters. She was actually being written as a human being. The viewers who hate Iris are going to hate her no matter what so just write her without worrying about whether she comes off likeable or not sometimes.

[marketdoctor]

Quote

Also, the writers don't understand how split personalities work.

Caitlyn/KF might be a special case of distributed identity; considering that physics is a bit different in the Arrowverse, I could see where abnormal psychology could be as well.  Or (Occam's Razor) you're absolutely right :-).

Cecile's powers seems like a side plot, but I think they'll turn out to be essential to stopping DeVoe.  Her ability to think like nearby people could give her enough "superintelligence" to know his plans, or even how to stop them.  Then there'd be the discussion of Joe not wanting to put her in danger, and how the whole world is in danger.  Side bonus:  it lets Danielle Nicolet show her acting range.